Book Club: The Pullman trilogy 'His Dark Materials'

[bettys]

The discussion started on the original Book Club thread has moved here so as not to spoil it for those reading it now/about to read it.

[ScummyMummy]

What about guessing what Mumsnetters' daemons would be? Or suggesting your own?

I'd like mine to be a sloth! I fancy curling up with it right now for a snooze.

[bettys]

Funnily enough my dp said I was a sloth the other day (in a very humorous way oh how I laughed)

I'd be a cat.

[SoupDragon]

I quite fancy something exotic like a tiger but I'd probably be a house cat. (or a sloth, or a koala... you get the idea )

[janh]

Can any of you tell me how come Lyra's daemon (won't even attempt to spell his name) can change his form all the time?

Also why most people's daemon's are the opposite sex to them (I think it was one of the old "gyptian" chaps whose wasn't.)

If this was explained at the start of Northern Lights I'll have to go back and read it again more carefully!

(I think I would have to be a sloth too! Must be something about avid readers...)

[Mopsy]

janh, the daemon is a physical, external manifestation of a person's psychological profile or inherent character, showing emotion and feeling. They change form until puberty when they settle for one 'shape'/animal form and become fixed in the one that best matches the adult persona. I interpreted this as meaning that a child has to 'try out' lots of different behaviours and traits before the personality as such becomes fixed.

Not sure if there was an explanation about why the daemon is the opposite sex; my interpretation of this was to take the view that we all have 'male' and 'female' aspects, and that to be balanced would mean that if a person's physical form was female then the daemon should be male, and vice versa. Hope this makes sense!

[janh]

Thanks, Mopsy! So all children have daemons that change all the time? I think Lyra's is the only one that's been described as far as I've read. I must get on with it!

[ScummyMummy]

I imagine that the people who have daemons of the same sex as them are homosexual. Not sure if Pullman makes this overt or not, though.
On daemons- is there a size restriction, d'you think? No one seems to have elephant or whale or a shire horse daemon or caterpillar, worm or flea daemons, come to that. Of course, one can see that it'd be a bit inconvenient to drag an elephant about or to read much into the soullike qualities of a worm but where's the logical cutoff? Is it purely practical?
Janh- the capacity of children's daemons to change shape is absolutely CRUCIAL to this saga so I think you're very perceptive to have focussed on it so early. Will say no more as I don't want to be an annoying blabber-mouthed hinter, which is a bad tendency of mine!

[emsiewill]

Have no deep insights, but just wondered if anyone was as taken as me with the creatures (sorry can't remember their names, and have lent the books out) in the third book that the woman professor ends up living with? Their method of moving around really fascinated me.
I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's explanations of the "meaning" of everything in these books. I'm honestly so thick when it comes to this kind of thing, I just read it all as a fascinating story, while being frustrated at my inability to "understand" it. How do I develop this skill? I suppose joining the mumsnet bookclub is a good start!

[Enid]

emsiewill, no, unfortunately I found the Mulefa very jarring and didn't think they were a terribly successful part of the book. I understood that he was having to describe a world that came from an utterly different dimension to ours, but found their capacity for human speech/language unconvincing to say the least. I did like the way he talks about the 'dust' flowing in a heavy stream from the mulefa's trees and the ingenious technological inventions that they had, but didn't particularly enjoy those bits in general.

[SoupDragon]

Scrummymummy - that was my assumption too re same sex daemons.

I read these books a couple of months ago so my memory of them is a bit rusty.

Mopsy - good description of why children's daemons change! As parents, we must have noticed how our own children's personalities change over time. Also, I guess the daemons are children too and need to mature?

re Mulefa - I found them a bit jarring at first but warmed to them as the story progressed.

Esmiewill - Generally I just read stories for pureenjoyment and don't look for deeper meaning. It's something I find really difficult to do. It's not a matter of being thick, it's just a matter of learning how to interpret things and where to look for meanings.

[SoupDragon]

forgot to say:
I found the whole concept of the subtle knife fascinating. The way that the ground in the alternate worlds weren't necessarily at the same height was an interesting twist.

[janh]

Thanks, all, for these comments so far, nobody is giving anything away but it's making me even more fascinated.

If the daemon is an expression of our true personalities I suspect even a sloth would be too energetic and dynamic for me!

[Mopsy]

Interesting thought about the same sex daemons, I think that passed me by. I too finished them about six months ago and am feeling a little rusty but they did make a huge impression on me.

What do others make of the 'dust'? What do you see it as? For me this was the most fascinating idea.

My view was that along with growing up, love, death, religion and all the other 'big' topics explored in these books, in introducing us to 'dust', Phillip Pullman is describing a metaphysical belief system. This is something I personally 'believe in' and on a simple level the theory states that all beings and substances are composed of the same matter, what differentiates species is the frequency of the vibration at an atomic level. I thought this was particularly clearly illustrated when the dead are released from the underworld, when they become particles which flow out and join the rest of the world. It is another way of describing the process that takes place when a dead body is buried - the earth absorbs the nutrients which then nourish plants etc - but also explains that our 'soul' or consciousness also dissipates similarly.

Have I waffled unintelligibly? Sorry - just something that really 'gets me'!

[lilibet]

Good idea starting a second page so we don't spoil anything. Mopsy, when the dead are released, how come 2 of them don't immediatley become atoms? This puzzled me, they waited in the land of the dead and then came out to fight? How could they stop themselves from evaporationg?

[Mopsy]

errrrrrrr....can't remember, sorry !!

[lilibet]

Would love to be a gazelle, but I could see a hippo at the side of me!

[florenceuk]

[SPOILER ALERT - contains a hint of the plot!!!]


Read this ages ago and then lent it to my sister and never got it back! So my knowledge of the books is quite rusty. Anyway, just wondering why people decided to read these books - I read it because of a review saying it was a brilliant read, not just for kids etc etc. And I'd read all the Harry Potter books and decided if I was going to revert to children's fiction might as well keep on this way! Interestingly enough, although my 7-yr old niece loved HP, she found these too hard. She's now read the Slaves of the Mastery series which I think is a level below this series in terms of complexity of ideas, language etc. (Not nearly as enjoyable as either HP or HDM IMO for adults). The hint of sex (or at least very passionate love) at the end of the trilogy is also quite an adult concept (very tastefully done!) Having read an interview with Pullman where he was heavily critical of the Narnia series for equating sexual awareness with exclusion from Heaven, I guess he had to put it in. But has been criticised on the grounds that Lyra and Will are actually still quite young. What do others think?

[sis]

nothing much to add to the discussion but just wanted the world, or at least other mumsnetters to know that I've just finished the trilogy! I really enjoyed all three of the books - but as others have already said, I too tend to read books for the "story" and often feel that I've missed out on the different layers of meaning that may or may not have been in the book.

Also, I read the books because of the recommendations from other mumsnetters - I'd never heard of the author or the books before coming across references on mumsnet.

[tigermoth]

Hi sis, I am now 50 pages into the third so still not quite there yet. I love the idea that amongst the all the religion and philosphy in the books, it's 'The Authority' (God) and the Church that are actually the baddies in this. Or so I assume. Interestingly, my dh tells me the triology has had good reviews from religious critics.

Also like the idea the the two angels who follow Will seem a bit flakey and easy to order around. I do hope will's mother resurfaces soon. I keep thinking of her holed up with the music teacher (to me a very improbable part of the plot - tell me what elderly teacher would happily house the strange mother of one of their pupils?) anyway, hope all will be explained soon.

[SoupDragon]

I thought the mother & the music teacher bit was a bit odd too.

[janh]

I thought God was the poor bewildered old man that they let out of his "cage" at the end...??? (I was a bit punchy by that stage) which I took to mean that the Church had actually rather sidelined God in pursuit of its own political ends

• wasn't he put there by that bad angel who was cleverly finished off by Lord Thing and Mrs Whatsit? (Intelligent incisive reviewing technique here!)
  
  The passing of time was all a bit vague too. I kind of got the impression that Will had only been gone a few weeks, but in any case maybe it's like Narnia and in his own world his mum has still only just arrived at the music teacher's house...isn't fantasy great, you can make up the rules to suit the story!
  
  Have only read the whole set once and there were so many details and layers and convolutions I meant to read the whole lot again immediately but hadn't the strength. Think I might have another look now, thanks sis, tigermoth and soupdragon for reminding me!