DD aged 21 months on an IEP at nursery?!

(47 Posts)
cheekymonk Wed 14-Nov-12 20:17:43

My DD 21 months goes to nursery 3 days a week and childminder 2 as I work 30 hours a week. I did do 16 hours and used only a nursery but increased hours beg of Oct and dd started with a childminder too.
DD seemed to be getting on ok at nursery but about 2 weeks before starting with cm she was getting more aggressive at nursery. It started with pushing children over and then escalated to pinching/scratching and now it is biting and she has drawn blood! Nearly every day at nursery I have to sign an incident form. she cries quite often at being left and is always so tired and unbearable 3pm onwards until bedtime as she is so tired (she has sleep at nursery). To top it all off, my cm was telling me that she was talking with dd's room leader who said that it is hard work because dd needs constant shadowing and that she doesn't talk much at nursery. She is also on an IEP (whatever that is, will google it) so cm told me but nursery hadn't told me that!! I love dd's keyworker and know that she cares for dd but the room leader, I don't like. i mentioned the other day that i would be horrified if I thought that nursery thought oh god baby cheekymonk is in today and they didn't answer me which says it all!!!
DD is hard work at the moment, very irritable and lots of tantrums. She hates being restricted and already we have moved her out of highchair to kiddy table and chairs and plan to move her into cotbed with no sides soon. Plus she isn't talking that much. CM is using signing but room leader told her theyu are anti signing because it delays speech more which cm disagreed with! also nursery give dd time out and sit her in front of egg timer! I know they have to do something but cm sits with her on sofa after incident and helps calm her down and there are far fewer incidents at cm than nursery!
so, I plan to move dd to 3 days with cm and keep 2 days at nursery but really, in my heart, i just want to swipe dd away from nursery completely. WWYD?

galwaygirl Wed 14-Nov-12 20:24:38

I would switch her full time to the cm to be honest as it sounds as if she's happier there x

PandaG Wed 14-Nov-12 20:27:23

no way she should be on an IEP - individual education plan - without your knowledge.

I would move her FT to the childminder if you are able

dancinginthemoonlight Wed 14-Nov-12 20:27:40

I wouldn't think time out is a reasonable method of discipline for 21 month old so I would question the nursery tbh. An IEP is an individual education plan. I've heard of them for primary school age children but not 21 month Olds.... Could your childminder do all her childcare?

cheekymonk Wed 14-Nov-12 20:30:35

I don't think cm can have her fulltime but I shall ask. IEPs are linked with special needs I see so is it her sppech or behaviour? Am very cross they have not told me. I have had lots of concerned faces and talk of a type of action plan but did not know it was an IEP.
feel out of my depth on this. DS went to nursery and didn't have any of these issues but they are 2 very different children.

catkind Wed 14-Nov-12 20:33:17

Another vote for full time CM if you can. When she's 3 or so she may be more interested in socialising more with children her age, and you could consider a (different?) nursery or preschool at that point.

dancinginthemoonlight Wed 14-Nov-12 20:33:55

Iep is still a bit hardcore for 21 months. Ifthey were worried about speech they should have advised you to speak to your health visitor who could have referred for speech therapy if they were concerned. Here it is unusual to refer for speech issues until after two years of age. What does the cm say?

getoffthecoffeetable Wed 14-Nov-12 20:34:23

How is your DD at the CM?
It sounds like your CM spends a lot more time with DD than the nursery does. Not sure how appropriate an egg timer is at that age?
My DS is 20 months old, hates a high chair and is just into a cotbed and also hates being restricted. Also lots of tantrums. It's just their age. Don't feel bad about it. I've just pulled DS from nursery for much less than what it sounds like you're going through with your nursery so please take my advice with heavy pinch of salt! I'd say that it sounds from your post that you want to move DD to CM. Have a good think about it but your post pretty much says that you'd prefer DD to be with CM. Probably save some money doing that too...
Good luck.

Preschool children have IPPs (individual play plans) so maybe that was what nursery meant? Whatever it is, it should have been signed off by you!
Your childminder is right on the signing issue. Signing prompts language development and does not stop children from talking.

dancinginthemoonlight Wed 14-Nov-12 20:36:46

I'm also sure they need parental permission to complete an iep and good practice is that you and possibly your cm be part of the process

cheekymonk Wed 14-Nov-12 20:46:10

I do remember having to write some action points on a form the other day but I was not really told what it was, was hard to concentrate with dd in my arms yelling! I have been to HV for speech when dd was 19 months and told to come back at 21 months if no improvement ( there has been some but not much so plan to go next mon when off work) Cm says dd has come on a great deal with her speech and that she 'gets' the signs and responds to them. Cm says how switched on dd is (and comments on her expressions and how 'funny' she is, with warmth) She thinks dd won't stop talking when she gets going and that nursery are making a very big deal of it all!
DD is always happy to go to cm and more content when I pick her up, generally.
Nursery have often commented on how much 1 to 1 attention she needs and thought the aggression has been attention seeking and jealousy (their words)
Thanks getoffthecoffeetable for your comments about your ds. I had forgotten how hard toddlerdom is!!

PandaG Wed 14-Nov-12 20:49:17

action points sounds like badly explained IE(orP)P to me. Could be for both speech and behaviour, though I wouldn't (as a nursery senco) feel comfortable setting IEP speech targets without a Speech therapist's input.

TheReturnOfBridezilla Wed 14-Nov-12 20:55:10

Change nurseries. Seriously. This is not a school and you don't have to put up with this.

Ds' previous nursery raised concerns about his speech and development which were quite frankly bollocks. I felt he had been unfairly labeled and went to their "meetings" and eventually moved him. He couldn't be happier, I couldn't be happier. New nursery have no such concerns and he has come on in leaps and bounds and is starting school soon.

Perhaps a fresh start would be nice for your dd too. It doesn't sound as if she is getting on very well there.

cheekymonk Wed 14-Nov-12 21:04:29

Well its strange because i first mentioned concerns about speech but as dd's behaviour has worsened they have homed in on it more as well as asking about ds as i mrntioned once he could be a bit rough with her. Room leader asked cm what brother was like and cm told her straight that ds was fine, just a typical 7 year old with his baby sister! I just don't want too much upheaval and upset for dd but neither do i want her somewhere that she is unhappy. I plan on talking about it all with HV too and see what they suggest.
Should i arrange a meeting with nursery and give them a chance?

TheReturnOfBridezilla Wed 14-Nov-12 21:09:26

I once went to a meeting with the nursery because ds seemed anxious when other children took toys away from him. I remember thinking "Of course he does, he isn't even two yet and doesn't really understand about sharing." It was around this point this I started to doubt the nursery's wisdom. grin

dancinginthemoonlight Wed 14-Nov-12 21:15:55

Sounds like they are trying to cover the fact they don't have the experience in their staff to cope. It says slot to me that your cm has no major concerns

cheekymonk Wed 14-Nov-12 21:46:25

Really good points everyone, thank you. Will think on!

Badvocsanta Wed 14-Nov-12 21:51:04

Firstly, if she has an IEP (individual education plan) then you should have a copy, have signed it and it should be reviewed termed.
Agree with others.
I would keep her full time with the CM.
Wrt to the signing...the nursery are just wrong!
She is unhappy at nursery and happy with the CM
Bit of a no brainer, surely?
Good luck

Badvocsanta Wed 14-Nov-12 21:51:26

...reviewed termly that should have read!

SamSmalaidh Wed 14-Nov-12 21:51:34

Can you move her completely to the CM?

Sounds like she is not happy at nursery, she is very little - and as her behaviour is hard to manage they obviously have her on some kind of behaviour plan. Needing one member of staff just to shadow her is very difficult for the nursery to cope with.

If she is happier with the CM, and CM is managing her behaviour better, I would try to keep her there.

Viviennemary Wed 14-Nov-12 21:58:49

She sounds really unhappy at the nursery and I can't see the point of her continuing if there is an alternative and the CM will have her for more hours.

JiltedJohnsJulie Wed 14-Nov-12 22:01:16

Personally monk I wouldn't wait to talk it through with your HV, I would just ask your cm if she can take dd full time and if not, if she would consider putting her on a waiting list.

Your dd is obviously unhappy and the nursery don't seem to be coping very well. Just the fact that you don't like the room leader and they are talking out of their arise on baby signing would be enough for me. If your cm can't take her full time I'd ask her where she recommends.

My dd had delayed speech too. She went from odd words to full sentences in one day. If she can follow instructions and understands what you say then I wouldn't worry too much although I agree that signing should make her life feel a bit easier.

If you are worried about her speech did you know at you can self refer to speech and language therapy?

cheekymonk Thu 15-Nov-12 07:43:36

I am talking to nursery today to advise i am reducing hours which will start a conversation I am sure. Yes it is a no brainer, I know, it is rypical of me to think things too much rather than act.

Badvocsanta Thu 15-Nov-12 08:10:59

Look, I procrastinated for months even though I knew my ds1 was deeply unhappy at his pre school.
I can't tell you how much I regret that and I don't want to alarm you but it has had a huge and detrimental impact on him sad
Knowing what I know now I would be talking to nursery today and telling them she isn't going back and making her full time with the CM. the CM sounds great and your dd is happy there. She has a long time til she goes to school so dont worry about socialisation too much yet.
I don't want to denigrate all nurseries or pre schools but lets face it some of the staff aren't very well qualified and 16/17 year olds rarely have much life experience or experience of young children.

JiltedJohnsJulie Thu 15-Nov-12 08:52:14

Agree with bad. Our DS was unhappy at pre-school and I really regret not taking him out. When it was DDs time to go I insisted on staying with her for some settling in time and could see straightaway why DS was unhappy. They did nothing with them and the children just ran wild. The more sensitive ones were obviously distressed by all the noise and mayhem.

I took her to a day nursery nearby to see what it was like and within 10 minutes she had asked to go and play. Most of the staff were a bit older and very experienced and qualified. They did lovely things with them like getting them to grow their own vegetables which were used to make lunch. She was so, so much happier and I don't regret moving her but I do regret not moving DS.

If you are talking to the nursery, can they tell you what triggers the hitting? Is she being wound up? Is it during activities or freeplay? Is it always the same children?

insancerre Thu 15-Nov-12 11:51:32

Another one who thinks you should go for fulltime cm. The nursery have got it all wrong.
I am an experienced nursery nurse/senco/ studying to be an EYP and several things jump out at me from your posts.
The nursery are wrong about sign language delaying children's speech. It is the reverse actually, signing helps children to communicate and reduces stress and tension.
Delayed speech is a cause for concern but any concerns that the nursery have should be discussed fully with you.
21 months is far too young for an IEP. They have jumped the gun a bit- they should be monitoring her behaviour with an ABC chart first. have they done this? Can they tell you what triggers there are for her behaviour?
The nursery sound as if they are not meeting her needs. The cm sounds lovely.
Hope the cm has room for your dd.

cheekymonk Thu 15-Nov-12 16:14:21

Just had long meeting with nursery manager and dd's keyworker. DD is on an IEP for her speech which is delayed and that of an under 1 year old. They are very anti the makaton that the cm is doing and say that they will do it if a HV or professional does it but not really happy to at present. They admitted dd does need more shadowing as this will support her speech. keyworker tells me dd is happy and she would tell me if she wasn't. She clearly adores dd and got emotional at times. They made inadvertant digs at cm and i do feel a bit bamboozled! Cm knows nursery manager and hates her! Cm is not that happy to work with nursery.
Nursery say itsthe fighting over toys that triggers the hitting and frustratration at not being able to communicate.
IEP was drawn up last friday and they apologised about not talking to me about it. They did reassure me that dd is not a pain and not overly demanding as room leader had insinuated. I think she will be put in her place! I will definitely move dd so she has more hours with cm than nursery.

Badvocsanta Thu 15-Nov-12 16:52:12

Well I think you and your dd are in the middle of a very difficult situation wrt the CM and nursery tbh.
It is grossly unprofessional or both of them to make derogatory comments about the other.
I am glad the meeting went well.

insancerre Thu 15-Nov-12 19:19:32

Has the nursery made the diagnosis about her speech being delayed? They are not really supposed to make a diagnosis like that. (or even qualified to )That's down to the SALT, who you can be referred to through your GP or HV.
I don't really see how the shadowing will support her speech. If there is an adult constantly shadowing her and intervening every time there is an issue over a toy, then how is she going to learn to communicate her needs?
Sounds as if the shadowing is more for their benefit, to stop any further incidents, than for your daughters.

ReallyTired England Thu 15-Nov-12 19:41:11

"Sounds as if the shadowing is more for their benefit, to stop any further incidents, than for your daughters."

Don't the other children have a right not to be bitten/ scratched. I hope that under twos are closely supervised whether they have "behavioural" problems or not.

I don't think the nursery is unreasonable to have a 21 month old on an IEP. Its not fair on the other children to have a child who is aggressive. An aggressive child needs help and an IEP is a way of providing that help. However an IEP should be drawn up in consultation with the parents.

An IEP is not the end of the world. Lots of children have IEPs for short periods of their life for transitory problems. Ds had an IEP when he had severe glue ear. It is a set of agreed strageries to help the child. It will not follow your child to school or affect them in any way as an adult.

It is very easy to feel hurt if your child is being critised or someone says something is not right. Hard as it is, you need rise above it. I suggest that you get the health visitor to do a development review. Maybe your dd would benefit from a hearing test to rule out glue ear and prehaps a speech assessment.

I imagine it must be hard for a small child being in more than one childcare setting. I think it would easier for you if your child either went just to the nursery or just to childminder.

cheekymonk Thu 15-Nov-12 21:30:20

Interesting reallytired. I had no choice over combining childcare as at the time, nursery coulkd not have dd fulltime and I didn't want to uproot her completely. alot of people advised that combing th 2 worked for them but I do find the competition between the 2 stressful. Nursery seem threatened by the cm whereas she is more laid back but yes just let me know she didn't like manager!
Nursery seem to have diagnosed speech delay but they said they would not refer dd to speech therapist until 2. I will talk about it all with HV and see what action they su=ggest re speech. Nursery did say there is such a thing as a IBP which is behavioural rather than educational and that dd didn't need that. they seemed to play down the aggression today but talk about the speech more today.
the shadowing is about providing a running commentary on what dd is doing and giving her time to talk and answer questions (part of IEP) and yes i'm sure to stop her hurting other children.
I wish i could just ask dd where she is happiest and she could tell me! It does feel extreme to take her out of nursery completely but i do agree that cm seems to cope better with her behaviour and I do think dd prefers 1 2 1 so i will reduce nursery time.

cheekymonk Thu 15-Nov-12 21:36:06

Thank you insancerre for your comments, i notice you are experienced nursery nurse. it is very helpful to hear it from your point of view too. No mention of ABc chart. I have noticed the triggers for behaviour is arguing over toys when signing the incident forms.

3littlefrogs Thu 15-Nov-12 21:47:15

I think your dd would be much happier going to the CM full time.

ReallyTired England Thu 15-Nov-12 22:46:35

"Nursery did say there is such a thing as a IBP which is behavioural rather than educational and that dd didn't need that. they seemed to play down the aggression today but talk about the speech more today."

That is splitting hairs. Learning good behaviour is education at this age.

21 month old children don't have behavioural problems as they don't have the nouse to be evil. They aren't in control of their behaviour like an older child. I imagine that there is some medical cause/ special need causing the behavioural problems.

Ask your health visitor to arrange a hearing test and referal to SLT.

3littlefrogs Fri 16-Nov-12 08:08:48

If she is happy and well behaved at the CM, it could be that she just can't cope with the noise and crowds in the nursery.

DS1 would have hated nursery because he couldn't bear noise and bustle and lots of children. He also hated birthday parties for the same reason. He outgrew it but it took until he was about 8 years old.

It seems as if the CM has the right approach, but it must be stressful for your dd to have to cope with conflicting approaches.

You say that in your heart you just want to swipe her away from nursery. I think your heart is right.

JiltedJohnsJulie Fri 16-Nov-12 21:00:00

Really suggestion of a hearing test is a really good one, I would second that and a self referral to slt.

3little apparently most children under 3 have raisd cortisone levels at nursery because of the stress. Think you are right about the ops heart too.

cheekymonk Mon 19-Nov-12 16:15:43

Saw Hv and dd has been referred to SALT which will also include hearing check so feel better for getting all bases covered that way. Spoke to CM today and she was really upset by nursery's comments and felt they were undermining her by refusing to do makaton with dd. She said they are breaking EYFS rules by doing that. HV didn't comment either way on makaton but i want cm to carry on with it.
Now that is on the go I can sort out reducing nursery hours. I can't take her out of there completely as i said, cm can't have her fulltime and i am not starting from scratch somewhere else. i do think cm situation suits her better than nursery so hence plan to reduce nursery time.
Thank you everyone for your input x

cheekymonk Mon 19-Nov-12 19:37:27

.

insancerre Mon 19-Nov-12 21:20:38

good cheekymonk
I am sure the nursery mean well but they really should give the makaton a go. it really does work.

DewDr0p Mon 19-Nov-12 21:31:38

I'm so glad you've said your dd has been referred to SALT and will be getting a hearing test. A lot of what you said reminded me of my ds, who has glue ear (temporary hearing loss). His speech was ever so slow to develop. His hearing goes up and down a bit (although the overall trend is improving) and meltdowns and misbehaving are the first sign that we've hit a bad patch.

I'm a bit bemused at the nursery "diagnosing" delayed speech, they really shouldn't be doing that.

Signing can be good and bad, btw. Ds's hearing support teacher asked his teacher NOT to do sign language in class (something she usually does with all the children) as it's important that he lipreads as much as possible, so hands waving about could distract from that. In other scenarios of course signing can be very helpful.

Hope you get some answers very soon.

cheekymonk Mon 19-Nov-12 21:31:43

Thanks insancerre x

Welovecouscous Mon 19-Nov-12 21:33:32

This is rediculous sad nursery sound way ott - maybe she just isn't ready for a setting like that?

cheekymonk Mon 19-Nov-12 22:08:19

thanks dewdrop, hoping for answers soon. maybe welovecouscous...

cheekymonk Sun 03-Mar-13 07:47:15

Just re-reading this and you were all so helpful. DD had glue ear in both ears sad diagnosed in December. Saw SALT couple of weeks ago and she thought DD def had hearing problem. Have brought hearing test forward for DD tomorrow then booked docs for day after. SALT advised me to bring my speech down a level to DD using one words which has had amazing results. She is saying about 20 words now. also using makaton (which the nursery have done, slightly begrudingly but keyworker has put in loads to time and effort trying to support dd). DD is at cm more than nursery and room leader now gone so i am glad i stuck with nursery as I said, keyworker is lovely and dd adores her. So, now it is waiting for hearing test...

An IEP is fine, but they should tell you.

Sign encourages speech, lots of research showing that and they sound rather hopeless not knowing that. You definitely need to talk to them.

Oh and y,y to ABC chart - essential.

Aw cheeky, I'm glad to hear you are getting somewhere. I had glue ear as a child that was only picked up because of my teachers concerns. Once I had grommets (do they still do those?) it was like someone flicked a switch!

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