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Measles outbreak and MMR vaccinations: live webchat with Department of Health director of immunisation Professor David Salisbury, Tuesday 9 April, 2-3pm

(357 Posts)
GeraldineMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 08-Apr-13 16:40:39

In light of the measles outbreaks in South Wales and higher than average levels of measles in some areas of England, and concerns reflected in MNers' discussions, we've invited Professor David Salisbury, the government's director of immunisation, back to MN to be our webchat guest tomorrow, Tuesday 9 April, at 2pm.

Please post any questions you have about the MMR vaccine for your children, or yourself, to Professor Salisbury.

Thank you.

VivaLeBeaver Mon 08-Apr-13 16:44:14

My dd is 12yo and never had mmr.

She had single vaccines for measles and rubella. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to have been any single mumps vaccines available in the last 10 years.

I'm thinking of getting mmr for her now. In your opinion will she need a booster mmr or not as she's already had 2x single vaccines?

Thanks

motherofvikings Mon 08-Apr-13 16:44:56

Silly question number 1...

If your 2yo has had their first dose of mmr (but not the preschool booster) are they protected as fully as the vaccine can protect?

Also what is the failure rate of the mmr vaccine?

Thanks! smile

adagio Mon 08-Apr-13 16:53:24

Is measles passed on via a third party or only be direct contact with an infected person?

I have a three month old baby, whose granny lives in Swansea valley near Neath, and wanted to know if we should avoid her for a few weeks?

She doesn't have it, but is anti vaccines in general and could have been in contact with infected people. My daughter is too young to be offered MMR yet, and we don't live in the relevant area ourselves so are unlikely to be offered it early.

Baby is EBF and I have had all vaccines offered throughout my lifetime. Baby is also getting everything offered in line with current guidelines.

OrangeFootedScrubfowl Mon 08-Apr-13 16:56:14

Is it the case (I read somewhere) that most immunity is passed from the mother to a baby in the third trimester of pregnancy? If so, if you gave birth at the end of the second trimester, would it benefit your child to have the MMR early?

infamouspoo Mon 08-Apr-13 17:11:30

Does the MMR wear off or is immunity for life? Are young adults entering university at risk at a time when their immune system may be lower (due to late nights, partying etc)

AmandinePoulain Mon 08-Apr-13 17:17:05

Hello

Why have we adopted the schedule that we have? I'm living right in the middle of the outbreak so my dd2 (coming up to 8mo) had her MMR last week, she'll need a booster at 12 months then another at 3 - I understand that for under 1s the vaccine isn't all that effective which is why we wait until 1, yet I'm currently in France so researched their schedule and found that both doses are given there before the age of 2 - so why do we wait until 3 for the second booster? Wouldn't it make more sense to give it earlier, as being advised in Swansea at the moment?

Thank you.

birdsnotbees Mon 08-Apr-13 17:51:36

Just to second what an earlier poster said: if a child aged 2 has had first mmr how at risk are they with this outbreak? As said child clearly isn't old enough to have yet had the second dose.

Also, if your child gets a very mild form of measles after the mmr (is this possible?), does that mean they are immune?

Am worried sick about my DD - went to South Wales over Easter & she's only 2.

crochetcircle Mon 08-Apr-13 18:58:50

Dd2 is 7 mo and has not had mmr yet as too young. We don't live in an outbreak area but am wondering if her mmr should be brought forward to give her protection now? I'd hate her to get ill.

Filmbuffmum Mon 08-Apr-13 19:00:51

Just wondering whether it is also recommended for adults to get the vaccine? I was born in 1971 and my Mum is sure I did not have any vaccinations against measles as I had eczema and apparently the recommendation in those days was not to have vaccinations. Is it possible to get immunised as an adult, and is this recommended (plus are the likely post-inoculation side effects the same)? Thanks!

EldonAve Mon 08-Apr-13 19:36:32

Are you seeing vaccinated individuals catching measles?
Is there any concern about the efficacy of the MMR or the previously given single measles vaccine?

WinkyWinkola Mon 08-Apr-13 19:49:58

I don't know if dh or me are immune. Born '71 and parents don't know if we had vax or if either of us had the illness.

Is measles ever asymptomatic and if one is immune, would it be dangerous to have the MMR or advisable to get immunity tested?

PluserixtheGaul Mon 08-Apr-13 20:31:58

What investigations do the DH make, and what support do they offer families if MMR goes wrong?

How do we know it is safe if the DH just ignores parents when they tell them about the bad effects? How could epidemiology be sensitive enough to pick up disasters?

How generous is compensation and how easy is it to get?

Why did the DH introduce Pluserix in 1988 and take four years to withdraw it, when they were told by the Canadians it was defective in 1987?

IwishIwasmoreorganised Mon 08-Apr-13 21:12:02

Is it possible to get blood tests to check for immunity?

DH and I have no idea if we're immune or not, our ds's have had both MMR jabs but we're living close to the areas currently affected and I'd happily have us all vaccinated again in tests showed low immunity levels.

There was an out break of measles in Canada where way more than the expected levels of vaccinated individuals were affected and this concerns me - is there any data proofing the efficacy of the MMR jab?

Does MMR acquired immunity last indefinitely or should our dc all have further boosters at certain ages?

WouldBeHarrietVane Mon 08-Apr-13 21:25:59

My DS had the single measles vax (Sanofi Pasteur produced). He is now just under 2.

Is the best step for measles protection for him just to have the mmr booster at 3?

Is the single vaccination as good as mmr at protecting against measles at his age?

HerrenaHarridan Mon 08-Apr-13 22:19:53

By an interesting coincidence my dd is having the mmr jab at the time of this web chat so ill have to catch up later ( not in affected areas!)

My question is regarding the rare serious side affects ( I don't mean the flu like symptoms that are quite common nor am I referring to autism)

What is the approx percentage chance of a severe reaction and what are the long term outlooks for those affected?

Thanks

ChocolateHelps Mon 08-Apr-13 22:21:35

Do Drs ask those who have confirmed measles, approx 600 at the mo, their vaccination status? Are they all non vac or is there any sense of a particular vaccination failure?

PluserixtheGaul Mon 08-Apr-13 22:39:37

Why did the DH and the pharmaceutical industry provoke a crisis in uptake in measles vaccine by removing the choice of single vaccines after the Royal Free press conference?

Did not the Cochrane Review of MMR, twice state in 2005 and in 2012 that the "design and reporting in MMR safety studies...is largely inadequate?" Is it not anomalous and misleading that this was not mentioned in the plain language summary which was designed for public and journalistic consumption?

Debs75 Mon 08-Apr-13 22:45:37

In light of a new measles outbreak wouldn't it be a sensible idea to sanction single jabs for those for which the MMR is unsuitable?

If so I could get my younger ones(4 and 2) vaccinated

Bluestockings Mon 08-Apr-13 22:49:52

MMR is essential protection for babies and the community and the vast majority suffer no adverse effects. However, it is generally acknowledged that a tiny proportion of children will have adverse effects and some will be permanently damaged - although fewer than would be damaged by severe measles. Why is this not acknowledged in law so that those parents whose children are damaged permanently by the vaccine don't have to spend years battling through the courts to get their children the help and support they will need for the rest of their lives? What are you doing - as the long-serving Director of immunisation - to ensure that such tragically damaged families don't have to suffer this trauma in addition to their daily difficulties and pain?

dorapeppageorgenoddy Mon 08-Apr-13 23:19:06

My son is 3 was too ill from 12months with repeated chest infections, every time we went for MMR they wouldn't do it - he has allergies and although is 'well' now, has asthma and allergies - we are not in an outbreak area should I ask the doc to get it done now or just wait?

My second son (20months) has not been called for MMR yet, not sure why, may have been missed as we have moved but also been repeatedly poorly still poorly with chest infections/asthma - should he have it or wait till he is full health?

Any general advice on the MMR and side effects would be good to hear -

I know I had a single measles vaccine in the early 80s. 1981 I think. I kI also know I had a single rubella jab and when last tested nearly 7 years ago I was immune to rubella. Is that sufficient or should people like me consider the MMR as well?

candleglow Tue 09-Apr-13 00:43:20

I am so nervous about this mass vaccination in Wales. My son was injured by MMR and I fear for these babies - especially the very young ones. If injury does occur, will the DOH admit culpability and compensate familes?

williamwallace Tue 09-Apr-13 02:23:44

If the MMR is so safe why do we have a Vaccine Damage Payment Unit. I have collected over 1,200 parents voices all claiming their child was vaccine injured. Why are these children not be looked after and the families compensated by the government. Our vaccine injured children are just swept under the carpet for the common herd. Add your voice to www.followingvaccinations.com

AmandinePoulain Tue 09-Apr-13 07:11:02

Candle don't worry about my baby - she's fine and I feel a lot better now that she's got some protection from a disease that shouldn't even be circulating in the 21st century given that it is wholly preventable with adequate levels of herd immunity.

LilyBolero Tue 09-Apr-13 07:23:47

How do you measure the efficacy of the MMR? I ask this within the context of my son having all the symptoms of measles(some 5yrs ago), but being told by the GP that if he wasn't vacced then they would dx measles, as he was, it couldn't be... , and that they didn't test for measles in vaccinated children... hmm

Good way to get a high success rate.

Oodsigma Tue 09-Apr-13 08:05:10

lily my dd1/2 both had measles despite MMR and GP said they had milder versions as they had some immunity but not fully. Dd2 was still quite ill ( avoided hospital though) and has hearing problems from it.

Oodsigma Tue 09-Apr-13 08:07:47

lily missed a bit off my last post ! They were both tested for measles so think yours might have been a GP decision rather than DoH saying don't test.

So DoH my question can be, is testing for measles (and other such diseases) compulsory for GPs is a patient shows signs? And if not then why not?

DuckWaddle Tue 09-Apr-13 09:16:00

My baby is now 6 months so no longer has my protective antibodies but is too young for the vaccine. What advice is there for those with infants in the 6 month to one year bracket?

MolotovCocktail Tue 09-Apr-13 09:42:01

My DD2 is almost 12mo. She has not yet been 'called' for her MMR vaccine. I'm pretty sure that she's due for it at 13mo, so May this year.

Can I have her vaccinated asap? Phoned the GP's surgery yesterday but the receptionist said no need as there hasn't been a call in our area to bring vaccinations forward.

I don't want to wait until there's an outbreak for it to be bought forward, though.

MistyB Tue 09-Apr-13 09:52:10

How many of the cases in the latest outbreak are in vaccinated (partially and as oer the latest schedule) people? (I know it has been asked but didn't want it to get missed.)

Has the DoH investigated whether this outbreak is due to low vaccination rates or a dodgy batch of vaccine? How many of those who have caught the disease have been vaccinated? Newspaper reports say there are 7,000 children who are unvaccinated, I guess that figure has dropped to nearer 5,000 with the panicky vaccination clinics.

Why can't the NHS offer a choice and ensure better training for GPs to discuss vaccinations and vaccination schedules from a dispassionate standpoint? Surely it would be cheaper in the long run?

MyDarlingClementine Tue 09-Apr-13 10:30:20

We are due to go away soon, I have a 6 month old baby. We are currently not in an outbreak area but am worried at the airport/ on the flight at our destination there is more chance for a mix up of population and exposure.

what can i do ?

MariahHairy Tue 09-Apr-13 10:45:13

I never had the measles infection but I am also not vaccinated.

Would you recommend immunisation also for adults who are un-vaccinated and never had measles?

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 10:51:15

what is the age range of those affected by the swansea outbreak? and what are the breakdown stats of those affected by age bracket (eg 0-5 years, x number affected, 5-10 years y number affected, and so on)

also what is the vaccinated vs unvaccinated ratios (asking this again as am sure it will be overlooked)

given that the efficacy of the vaccination has turned out to be far from what was first touted ('one vaccine for life') - first one 'booster' needed. now sometimes 2 - why is there no routine titre check for mmr immunity pre-puberty (mumps and measles both much more serious as adults, a rubella check for girls before child bearing age would also be wise)?

CousinArnold Tue 09-Apr-13 10:55:20

Another one here who would like to know if my DS, aged 2.5 should have his booster jab early? We are not in the outbreak area but are close to it, and intending to travel to Pembrokeshire in May, where there are also cases.

WouldBeHarrietVane Tue 09-Apr-13 11:22:34

I should have said regarding my DS that our family live in the Middlesbrough area where there have been c200 cases iirc.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 11:34:21

<sorry for a second question, but this is a really important topic, imo>

why is there such a reluctance to test for measles and mumps? (the actual illnesses)

dd2 had mumps last year. it is a notifiable disease, so surely if a child attends a GP, presenting with all the symptoms of mumps, then it should be routinely tested for? I had to push and push, remind the GP that mumps is notifiable (and therefore it is his duty to rule it in or out, and, erm, notify as pr DoH policy), and he was still reluctant to test.

half od dd2's school year had been off with the same illness, so the mumps results for our region last year are certainly skewed to say the least (as far as I am aware she was the only child tested for mumps). It is also ridiculous that I had to push so hard, given that dd2 is unvaccinated - it was clear as anythign that she had mumps.

I also know of 4 families whose children have had 'measles-like virus', when presenting with measles symptoms (this is years ago, not related to current outbreak) - yet not tested to check whether measle sor not. again, if it is suspected, surely the doctor has a duty of care to actually test for it? given that it is a notifiable disease...

so, why are so many doctors so reluctant ot test for these illnesses, and how can you be so sure DoH figures on disease rates are accurate, given this state of affairs?

Can you explain how herd immunity works for vaccination when some vaccine effectiveness wanes over time, what about the older population who were vaccinated decades ago, are they still protected and how does that affect herd immunity?

Hello

I have in my hands a letter dated 22 May 2001, from a member of the Immunisation and Communicable Disease Team' (in reply to me contacting them) which says:

...but can I first clarify in a little more depth the licensing position of the monovalent measles and mumps vaccines. Can I assure you that the Government has not removed any of these licenses. In fact there are 4 extant measles vaccine licenses and one extant mumps vaccine license. The companies that hold these licenses have told the Department of Health however that they are not making or marketing to the UK vaccine which matches these extant licenses. Therefore the measles and mumps vaccines currently being imported into the UK are unlicensed. Like any unlicensed medicines, the availability of these unlicensed vaccines is restricted under the Medicines Act. If manufacturers of these products wish to apply for licenses they are free to do so'.

Obviously the details may have changed in the intervening 12 years but is this broadly speaking still the case?

Secondly. And I guess this is more a comment the letter goes on to say:

Finally, the evidence does not support your assessment that 'confidence in the vaccine (this is the MMR) is extremely low'. Although this may be your perception among the mothers you have contact with, it is generally not the case. Currently 88% of children are immunised with MMR by the age of 2. Twice a year we conduct a representative survey of 1,000 parents of children under 3 to understand their attitudes towards immunisation, including experience of their most recent immunisation visit. This research is vital in understanding whether a media scare story is having a real impact on parents. The research, the most recent wave of which was conduct (sic) in March, showed a small fall in parental confidence, as is understandable given the coverage of the issue in January and February, but nothing more.

Given that that letter was written three years after the press conference (and 88% seems to be being presented a high vaccination rate demonstrating confidence in the vaccination) why is Wakefield often blamed 12 years after that letter was written?

Oh and finally - when quoting measles vaccination rates it would be helpful to include numbers of children who have received single vaccinations, as given the high numbers now vaccinated with MMR, adding in the singles may well show that 95%+ coverage for measles vaccinations has been reached in many (most?) areas.

Oh and I agree with silverfrog's questions. I did see a report - (can't find it now but it was on the BBC website or in a broadsheet which said that 75% of those catching measles in the current outbreak were unvaccinated. I'd be interested in knowing more about the 25% who had been. Were they teenagers? Were they young adults? Had they had one dose or two? I was surprised by the figures (although must state haven't been able to independently verify them anywhere).

Sorry that's two questions, but it's the same as silverfrog's really.

infamouspoo Tue 09-Apr-13 11:58:25

Can you explain herd immunity when the rate of measles infection fell drastically when vaccination rates were only 20 - 50% in the 70's. Way before the 'magic' 95%. Could lack of reporting and misdiagnosis affect this?

gemjay30 Tue 09-Apr-13 12:04:26

So should parents who now are bombarding doctors sugeries to get vaccines for their children, whom they previously deprived of it not be prosecuted for abuse and neglect.

Nikki2103 Tue 09-Apr-13 12:12:15

Hi, Our son is 4 and hasnt had the MMR as his older brother was really ill after it. He started suffering febrile convulsions and was put on anti-epilepsy drugs which then made his platelets too low. When his blood was tested to see if he needed the booster, his levels were still very high? We are terrified to go through this all again with our 4 year old but also are terrified of him getting measles. Would we be better to have the single vaccine for measles? Does being that much older now (4 as opposed to 18months) make it less likely he will suffer any reactions? PLEASE HELP AS WE ARE REALLY WORRIED X

Lily -same thing happened to me. DS1 showed the signs of measles - the rash came up in the correct order & he had a cough etc. I was told to go to OOH (and then told to wait in a busy waiting room until I complained when I was told to wait in a sideroom with a baby :face palm: ). When we saw the doctor he said it couldn't be measles as ds1 had been vaccinated against it. No testing was carried out and the only explanation for it not being measles was the vaccination history - not that it didn't look like it or anything.

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 12:24:31

Years ago I asked you for a meeting and you said you were too busy. Why are you not listening to parents of vaccine damaged children? My sons were part of the Lancet study and Professor Walker Smith who let the study took the GMC to court and won his case. The lancet study on our children stands as a small study looking at bowel disease in Autistic children. Other studies have been done and found many more Autistic children suffering in great pain because of their bowels. The Royal Courts of Justice have agreed with this. The Lancet paper needs to be reinstated as a matter of urgency so more research can be done on Autistic children with bowel disease and not 'blacklisted' and used as political pawns. All Dr. Wakefield did was listen to the parents and asked for the MMR to be given as single shots until more research was done.

gemjay30 Tue 09-Apr-13 12:28:41

Yes sympathy to those affected bot what about those being affected now?

gemjay30 Tue 09-Apr-13 12:31:29

Lot of bandwaggoners jumped on that train but who's paying now?!hmm

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 12:32:48

can I second saintlyjimjams' question please? I find it very disappointing (from a very pro-vaccination perspective) that neither PHW nor HPA are publishing systematic figures detailing age groups and vaccination coverage per age group. Also, it would be great to see the complications detailed (if just to counteract the claims that measles are really a "harmless, get on with it" kind of disease). The delays to (potential) publication in Eurosurveillance are months in the best of circumstances and do little for public confidence in the use of the MMR.

MMRrobocop Tue 09-Apr-13 12:43:26

In 1988, ten years before Dr Wakefield raised a red flag, the vaccine policy-makers knew 2 of the 3 original brands carried a risk of meningitis and the third brand was linked with neurological complications. One of the first infants, an eighteen month old toddler vaccinated with MMR, started with severe convulsions and subsequently died during a seizure. This child was one of a number of children awarded Government recognition of vaccine-damage through DWP vaccine damage payments. Why did it take four years to withdraw brands known to cause meningitis even before they were introduced?

What steps did your department take to investigate every child that had been given these vaccines to determine if any others had suffered long term harm or died in similar circumstances to this child?

DameSaggarmakersbottomknocker Tue 09-Apr-13 12:59:17

I'm also interested in the issue of waning immunity. Both of my sons have reported cases of mumps among students at their universities. Clearly not the best time for males to be contracting this disease.

MMRrobocop Tue 09-Apr-13 13:07:31

Recent statements from Public Health spokespersons have been made: "...[MMR] is perfectly safe and perfectly effective." "That may mean that some young children will have three MMR jabs....That is not a problem. It is perfectly safe and perfectly effective." and one of the strongest claims: "There's no adverse effect to this extra jab [3rd MMR]....".

Given that these statements are at odds with the MMR vaccine manufacturers' own product sheets which have always provided information on associated adverse reactions, contraindications and the potential problems with maternal antibodies when a measles containing vaccine is given under twelve months. Given also that claims of "perfectly safe" are at odds with the Government's Vaccine Damage Payment Unit which has made awards to children severely damaged by MMR and other vaccines.

Do you support the Public Health speakers claims? Or will they be reprimanded for misleading parents and other health professionals?

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 13:11:43

MMRrobocop - the maternal antibodies would only interfer with the baby's own immune response but not cause anything untowards. Clearly, a chance at their own immunity is better than leaving infants totally unprotected (as they would be from 6 to 12 months AND they were before the advent of the measles containing vaccine).

williamwallace Tue 09-Apr-13 13:13:58

I would like to ask David Salisbury about the cases won in the USA and Italy of children with Autism and MMR vaccine?
My son who is 20 now has regressive autism and has no language and suffers from seizures, problems with sleeping and like so many children diagnosed with autism has a bowel disorder. All been ignored by the government and the medical establishment and especially the pharmaceutical companies who make billions every year and still our vaccine injured children suffer, shame on you. www.followingvaccinations.com

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 13:15:03

testing, testing [by MNHQ]

GeraldineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 09-Apr-13 13:56:54

Hello, Professor Salisbury is ready to start in a couple of minutes.

Thank you to him for coming on at short notice and thanks to everyone who has posted questions.

Why can the DofH not deploy some its annual £44m communications budget in running a hard hitting national ad campaign which states simply, categorically, and with evidence that there is no link between MMR and autism, but that there definitely is a link between NOT having the vaccine and contracting a disease which can, at best, leave you blind, brain damaged and infertile? Isn't this the kind of vital public information job that the budget is meant to be for? Rather than endless 5 a day leaflets which are preaching to the converted and being ignored by the unconvertible?

It seems the Government instead relied on the media to mop up after the Wakefield scam, but an article saying 'don't panic, no link' simply isn't sexy enough for them. Likewise, can you see the Daily Mail apologising, especially given it's still backing Wakefield on his latest wheeze which is a reality show linking bowel and brain conditions.

MyDarlingClementine Tue 09-Apr-13 14:03:29

I have not done one of these before how does it work, i posted my question way back.

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 14:03:51

Good afternoon to everybody and thanks for inviting me back. I have seen the very large number of questions that have come in already and will do my best to work through them. Quite a few raise the same issues so please understand that your question may not be answered specifically but someone else’s answer may be relevant for you.

J2bump Tue 09-Apr-13 14:06:14

We're very close to the outbreak area (Cardiff) and my DD has just started nursery, she's coming up to 11 months -should she have an early vaccination or should she wait until she's 12 months?

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 14:09:40

VivaLeBeaver

My dd is 12yo and never had mmr.

She had single vaccines for measles and rubella. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to have been any single mumps vaccines available in the last 10 years.

I'm thinking of getting mmr for her now. In your opinion will she need a booster mmr or not as she's already had 2x single vaccines?

Thanks

Your daughter should be well protected against measles and rubella because she has had two doses of each vaccine. But she will still be vulnerable to mumps. As you say, there is no single mumps vaccine available and so she needs two doses of MMR to get her protected against mumps. Having extra doses of measles and rubella vaccines won't do anything to her if she is already immune from her previous vaccinations. It would be a bit like me, as a paediatrician, going into a children's ward and being exposed to measles every day. As I am immune, nothing happens however many times I meet the viruses. Same for having multiple MMRs.

lightsandshapes Tue 09-Apr-13 14:11:08

Can you tell us how many children have died of measles in the uk in the last year? Or how many of the 500 who contracted in Swansea recently have had severe complications. Do you believe in any link between SIDS and vaccines?

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 14:13:34

adagio

Is measles passed on via a third party or only be direct contact with an infected person?

I have a three month old baby, whose granny lives in Swansea valley near Neath, and wanted to know if we should avoid her for a few weeks?

She doesn't have it, but is anti vaccines in general and could have been in contact with infected people. My daughter is too young to be offered MMR yet, and we don't live in the relevant area ourselves so are unlikely to be offered it early.

Baby is EBF and I have had all vaccines offered throughout my lifetime. Baby is also getting everything offered in line with current guidelines.

You can only catch measles from someone who is infectious and not from carriers without any symptoms. Most grannies are of an age that they probably had measles when they were children so they should be immune. Sorry to hear that the granny is anti-vaccine: it's the best way to protect your baby!

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 14:17:29

infamouspoo

Does the MMR wear off or is immunity for life? Are young adults entering university at risk at a time when their immune system may be lower (due to late nights, partying etc)

Quite a few of you have asked about the length of protection that comes from MMR vaccine. For the first dose, you get about 90% immunity against measles, 95% immunity against rubella and 85% immunity to mumps. The second dose takes the immunity up to about 95%, 99% and 90% respectively. As far as we know, from very long term studies, there is very little loss of measles and rubella immunity over many years but there is some loss of mumps immunity over time. If you have children who have not been vaccinated or had only one dose of MMR, please contact your GP - even if they are huge teenagers who say they hate needles!

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 14:22:05

could you quantify the 'very little loss of immunity to measles and rubella' and 'some loss of immunity to mumps' over time, please?

are we looking at a 10% drop in immune rates? or a 25% drop? what is very little? what is 'some'?

WouldBeHarrietVane Tue 09-Apr-13 14:23:18

I read somewhere recently that mumps immunity is only 50-60% in teens even after childhood mmr and childhood booster.

Is this true?

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 14:26:29

AmandinePoulain

Hello

Why have we adopted the schedule that we have? I'm living right in the middle of the outbreak so my dd2 (coming up to 8mo) had her MMR last week, she'll need a booster at 12 months then another at 3 - I understand that for under 1s the vaccine isn't all that effective which is why we wait until 1, yet I'm currently in France so researched their schedule and found that both doses are given there before the age of 2 - so why do we wait until 3 for the second booster? Wouldn't it make more sense to give it earlier, as being advised in Swansea at the moment?

Thank you.

I'll try to keep this uncomplicated!
We normally give the first MMR at 12 to 13 months because by that age antibodies, that came from the mother during pregnancy and which can block the vaccine, have worn off. It's also before children run significant risks of being exposed to measles.
The game changes though when there are lots of cases of measles. If children catch measles below the age of a year, then the risks really go up of a very severe brain damaging complication from the infection. For that reason, even though it isn't fully effective, we give a first dose at six months (roughly). We need to give in effect another first dose at the routine age of 12 to 13 months and then a routine second dose. There is no magic about the timing of the second dose. Most countries recommend it before school entry and we coincide the second MMR with other pre-school vaccines. There are a few countries that do give the second dose shortly after the first dose, but one isn't particularly better than the other.

And further to silverfrog's questions - would you expect waning immunity to become more of a problem with the absence of circulating disease and as a higher proportion of the population has vaccination derived rather than disease derived immunity. i.e. as the vaccinated population grows up. How will this impact on the aim to make the UK measles free?

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 14:28:49

Filmbuffmum

Just wondering whether it is also recommended for adults to get the vaccine? I was born in 1971 and my Mum is sure I did not have any vaccinations against measles as I had eczema and apparently the recommendation in those days was not to have vaccinations. Is it possible to get immunised as an adult, and is this recommended (plus are the likely post-inoculation side effects the same)? Thanks!

Yes - you can be immunised as an adult. But you should have been tested, certainly for rubella, when you were pregnant.

^^ Although that's applicable to mumps and rubella as well. Especially mumps I guess as it's usually mild in childhood, often asymptomatic.

DuckWaddle Tue 09-Apr-13 14:30:27

Thank you for clarifying the situation for those under 1. Can I take it that the number of cases in currently non outbreak areas will be monitored and, if the number of cases rise that those under 1 will be called for vaccination?

Puddlelane Tue 09-Apr-13 14:31:02

Yes I would like to know any link between SIDS and vaccines.

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 14:33:17

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MyDarlingClementine Tue 09-Apr-13 14:34:18

Dear Dr David,

I am not in an outbreak area where I live, But will shortly be going on holiday where at the airport and/plane and destination I will be exposed to the wider population, my daughter is 6 months in two weeks, should I be asking for a first dose? And when will doctors be informed of all of this in their surgeries. Many thanks

DisAstrophe Tue 09-Apr-13 14:35:09

Both my kids have had their first MMR but not the second. I won't bore you with the reason why.

The oldest had their his first dose 5yrs ago and the youngest had hers 2 years ago.

You've just said that the immunity only goes up from 90 to 95% for measles if they have the booster. Is that right - just another 5%. and still leaving them with a one in 20 chance of getting measles?

Thanks for coming on by the way and thanks to mn hq for arranging.

GeraldineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 09-Apr-13 14:36:03

Given the number of questions and time limit of an hour, please can you everyone stick to one question. Will give Prof Salisbury time to answer questions higher up the thread. Thanks v much.

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 14:40:40

PluserixtheGaul

What investigations do the DH make, and what support do they offer families if MMR goes wrong?

How do we know it is safe if the DH just ignores parents when they tell them about the bad effects? How could epidemiology be sensitive enough to pick up disasters?

How generous is compensation and how easy is it to get?

Why did the DH introduce Pluserix in 1988 and take four years to withdraw it, when they were told by the Canadians it was defective in 1987?

Anybody, a member of the public, parent, recipient, or health care worker can report an adverse event on a Yellow Card (by phone, on line or hard copy) to the Medicines and Health care Regulatory Agency (MHRA) and reports are investigated. There is a Vaccine Damage Payment Sceme that is administered by the Department of Work and Pensions that pays lump sums based on the extent of vaccine damage where the evidence supports the claim that the vaccine has caused the problem.
One of the important tests that are always carried out on studies is to challenge whether they are sufficiently sensitive to detect rare adverse events. Conclusions that exonerate or implicate a vaccine will only be accepted if the studies are sufficiently powerful. For instance, we now have so many different studies, in different populations and done in different ways, that we can be confident that there are not causal links between MMR and autism.
The UK introduced MMR in 1988. As soon as there was clear evidence of the specific association with two brands of vaccine of mumps virus meningitis, and that this did not occur with the third brand, the use of the two particular vaccines was stopped and they have not been used in this country since then.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 14:42:12

Point taken, geraldine.

Although it might be a little more effective if Dr David answered questions with full facts (which in turn would partly answer other questions asked) instead of woolly, vague answers such as 'some immunity will be lost after a number of years' - which tells us nothing!

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 14:43:03

ChocolateHelps

Do Drs ask those who have confirmed measles, approx 600 at the mo, their vaccination status? Are they all non vac or is there any sense of a particular vaccination failure?

Some of you have asked about whether the cases in South Wales are in immunised or unimmunised people. Most of the cases are in unvaccinated children, some cases are in children who have had one dose and very few are in children who have had two doses. This is exactly what we expect in vaccines that do not give 100% immunity and doesn’t mean that the vaccines didn’t work when they were given, or were ‘dodgy’ as someone asked. This is why it is so important to have two doses of MMR.

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 14:46:43

Debs75

In light of a new measles outbreak wouldn't it be a sensible idea to sanction single jabs for those for which the MMR is unsuitable?

If so I could get my younger ones(4 and 2) vaccinated

I can't think of any circumstances when it would be appropriate to have measles vaccine but not MMR - so I strongly recommend to you that you get your children vaccinated with MMR.

CoteDAzur Tue 09-Apr-13 14:48:06

What would you say is the point of vaccinating boys of any age and baby girls against rubella?

If you say it is for the greater good of society (herd immunity), would you say it is ethical to inject a healthy baby with an unnecessary vaccine that has a small risk, for someone else's benefit?

Why can't teenage girls be tested against rubella and offered the vaccine at that point if they are not already immune?

LadyIsabellaWrotham Tue 09-Apr-13 14:48:31

DisAstrophe, that "only another 5% protection" is perhaps best looked at as "halving the remaining risk". With vaccine protection, as with contraception efficacy, you're normally better off looking at the failure rate rather than the success.

Yes agree with silverfrog. For example I have preferred clarification on the time frames for withdrawal of urabe strain MMR rather than 'as soon as' this broadsheet report suggests it took 2 to 4 years.

Oh 'most' - so the newspaper report of 25% being in vaccinated children might be correct then. :none the wiser:

I'll shut up now I promise MNHQ

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 14:51:41

and of course, saintly, there is always the fact that problems with the urabe strain were well documented before the UK even chose to introduce it (why they chose to introduce that strain, given the known issues remains a mystery)

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 14:52:17

yep, saintly, yet another vague, useless answer.

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 14:54:10

So far five basic questions answered by Dr. Sailsbury from 84 questions posted. It is a shame as there were some very interesting and important questions to be answered.

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 14:54:11

Oodsigma

lily missed a bit off my last post ! They were both tested for measles so think yours might have been a GP decision rather than DoH saying don't test.

So DoH my question can be, is testing for measles (and other such diseases) compulsory for GPs is a patient shows signs? And if not then why not?

Many of you have asked about testing for measles and testing for immunity.

It is a statutory requirement that doctors 'notify' suspected cases of measles. When they do so, they are sent a testing kit that only requires a saliva specimen, that is taken with a swab, to be obtained - and even the parent can take the swab. This is tested for rubella as well as measles (and can be done too for mumps confirmation). So, a blood test isn't even needed. However, testing for measles, mumps and rubella immunity to previous disease is trickier. It does require a blood specimen and interpreting the result is not easy. If antibody levels are high, then clearly the person is immune but low levels don't always mean that the person has never been protected. If you don't think you, or your children, have been vaccinated, speak to your GP.

slightlysoupstained Tue 09-Apr-13 14:55:31

Please take the generic antivac bitching elsewhere.

CoteDAzur Tue 09-Apr-13 14:57:01

"Bitching"? hmm

Those are legitimate questions.

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 14:58:04

saintly and silver - I was under the impression the question session was more about the current measles outbreak and what parents could do and less about 30 years of British vaccination policy. Maybe suggest that MNHQ and Dr Salisbury do a separate session on this (which I would find totally informative).

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 14:58:21

yeah, Cote, 'bitching' about the UK knowingly introducing an unsafe vaccine. god, some people, huh?

judey Tue 09-Apr-13 14:59:22

Why am I unable to find reliable data on how many children are damaged by the MMR? I fully appreciate that correlation does not infer cause and effect. However, there are clearly some cases where it is acknowledged that children are damaged by vaccinations (and the families are compensated).
Why can't I choose to have my child vaccinated against measles with a single vaccine if the government are so concerned about this illness? I will not risk the MMR.

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 14:59:28

Puddlelane

Yes I would like to know any link between SIDS and vaccines.

There are plenty of studies that show no link whatsoever between vaccines and SIDS apart from some suggestions that vaccines may protect against SIDS.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:00:00

fair point, Catherina, except Dr David is hardly answering questions about the current outbreak, either, is he?

and the points re: urabe strain arose after he posted about it, tbh.

Hm you may have a point catherina - although I think it is relevant given the DoH are concerned with vaccinating as many people as possible. Sort of important to address concerns - wherever they come from. I take your point though.

Although apart from the urabe strain comments the others were all relating to the current outbreak. I see we had the same question regarding details of those affected at the moment, I'm guessing the response didn't really give you what you were seeking either smile

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 15:02:37

true and it is a justified question, not totally OT here (because of the whole public confidence issue) either.

DrDavidSalisbury Tue 09-Apr-13 15:03:14

Sorry not to have been able to answer all of your questions. I have tried to answer questions that relate to the present situation about measles but there have been quite a few questions and comments that had nothing to do with the present!
You can find more information on NHS Choices.

Best wishes to MumsNet until the next time............

David Salisbury

MyDarlingClementine Tue 09-Apr-13 15:03:58

oh dear, so I know babys under 1 can get measles really badly but still dont know how to protect her!

judey Tue 09-Apr-13 15:05:01

In America is is accepted that vaccinations increase the risk of SIDS. This seems a commen sense approach to me, given the age at which infants receive their first vaccinations (peak age for SIDS) and the fact that the can cause a raised temp.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:05:49

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Webchat Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 15:06:16

saintly - I have written to PHS directly, hoping for some numbers faster than the next eurosurveillance article. HPA were very good about passing them on to me last year, too. Too few people to keep track of too many patient records I think. One would wish for an outbreak management system that would keep track of things, given that the NHS already has a big brother like computer system (in a good way from the epidemiological point of view).

Clementine - if you had natural measles infection they will probably have quite good coverage, if they were vaccinated maybe not (this is all info available on the HPA website and I can link if you would like).

Talk to your GP. Babies can be given MMR but if given under a year they will need to have the normal regular 13 month and pre-school MMR jabs as well - so 3 doses in total.

MyDarlingClementine Tue 09-Apr-13 15:07:14

Go and vaccinate - where?

Yes I agree Catherina - would be interested in any response you get. I was VERY surprised by the 25% figure but have no idea where it came from or how it broke down (1 versus 2 shots, age etc)

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 15:08:32

In America is is accepted that vaccinations increase the risk of SIDS.

that is not true. There might be some web sites/anti-vaccine publication claiming that is the case, but any large study which has looked at the connection either finds no effect of vaccines on SIDS or a protective effect of age-appropriate vaccination.

MyDarlingClementine Tue 09-Apr-13 15:09:28

I dont know if I have had measles or the protection.

My gps doesn't know, they didn't or wont say anything like with whooping cough.

They are useless.

PluserixtheGaul Tue 09-Apr-13 15:11:08

Cochrane was not confident about the safety studies: "largely inadequate" was their verdict even in 2012, was it not?

lightsandshapes Tue 09-Apr-13 15:11:19

"Plenty of studies"..... "Most were unvaccinated". This is so vague. I appreciate its difficult to have all the empirical evidence at your fingertips, but this does not give me any faith in so called "evidence based" medicine. Surely as a professor in this field you can quote some studies by name etc.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:11:37

oh fgs, this place gets ever more big-brother like.

this is rapidly becoming not worth it anymore - a shame, as Mn used to be a place where a lot of htings could be questioned.

sadly not anymore.

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 15:12:24

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:12:47

oh, and could I ask who reported my post? (since apparently posts are only delete if reported?) - and what was so offensive about it?

Clementine if you're in an outbreak area they might have been given more recent advice. If you're not and not travelling to an outbreak area my guess is that they would say stick with the regular schedule. Maybe change your GP though in the long run , some are good at talking this stuff through, some not so much - and your questions are valid ones and the role of the GP to address.

judey Tue 09-Apr-13 15:13:58

Do please make reference to these large studies Catherina. As I said, common sense would suggest that anything that makes a young infant ill, especially with a raised temp. is likely to increase the risk of SIDS.

OMG silverfrog you were deleted!!! Was that the one where you said he didn't really answer anything.

Shame on you MNHQ :waits for post to go pop:

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:16:25

yep, it was the one which said the webchat had been most informative hmm

and that the official line would appear to be to go and vaccinate, not ask questions, and that there didn't really seem to be a handle on efficacy rates or how long immunity lasted (surely if these figures were known, they would have been shared? smile)

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 15:16:50

MDC - I think that is a problem that has not been addressed here either - many GPs are not properly trained, maybe because the infant vaccinations are done by the Health Visitor? When I had question regarding my pre-teens' boosters, my GP gave me the infant vaccination schedule. The fact that mother who suspect their children have mumps or measles are sent into the general waiting room is scandalous as well!

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:17:16

<hope you're about and reading, saintly, as that one will shortly disappear no doubt too>

motherofvikings Tue 09-Apr-13 15:17:45

Hmmm I sort of expected a few more answers....

I could have told you all to go vaccinate!

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 15:18:44

Cochrane also says:

Exposure to the MMR vaccine was unlikely to be associated with autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn's disease, demyelinating diseases, bacterial or viral infections.

Strange how that is always omitted by anti vaccine-critical posters.

That was me! And I honestly couldn't believe it when I said 'er should I be sitting in a busy waiting room with my child with suspected measles' and they then sent me into a side room with a baby!!! WTAF?

Actually that's one question he did answer. Despite the fact that ds1 was vaccinated against measles he should still have been tested. So saying 'it can't be measles as he has been vaccinated' was not the correct procedure.

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 15:19:47

the official line would appear to be to go and vaccinate

that is the most sensible course of action in the middle of a measles outbreak though.

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 15:20:28

ITA with you on that one, Saintly - that is travesty.

infamouspoo Tue 09-Apr-13 15:20:31

he was largely uninformative I'm afrad

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:20:56

yes, I was really glad to find out that my GP was also negligant last year when dd2 presented with mumps. (and half of her year also...)

I ownder why doctors are so reluctant to test suspected cases, when it is policy to test?

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 15:23:27

are those budget constraints? I was floored at the titer testing prices at my travel clinic. £80 for measles alone... hmm

^the official line would appear to be to go and vaccinate

that is the most sensible course of action in the middle of a measles outbreak though.^

Well it's certainly the best way to prevent measles in your child but if he wants vaccine-refusers to vaccinate he has to engage with people's concerns. Not just ignore them. Most people's decisions not to vaccinate aren't about measles itself, it's about issues with the vaccination (and often personal experience - you can't just tell people it didn't happen).

Probably budget Catherina

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 15:28:27

Go to your GPs and ask for the product leaflet that comes with every MMR vaccine and read the side effects, now compare it to the one the Government give you and ask why they omit all the other reactions. Does the doctor or nurse read the side effects and if not why? These are the drug companies list of side effects. If you purchase any medicine you get one of these leaflets. If you get any other medicine at the doctors surgery the chemist gives you the product leaflet. Why does the government keep the product leaflet from the parents and produce their own? Most doctors refuse to fill in the yellow card when you tell them your child has had a reaction to the vaccine. This has happened to me and other parents.

Read CONTRAINDICATIONS, WARNINGS, PRECAUTIONS below.

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

Does the nurse do as stated in this leaflet at the surgery?

Puddlelane Tue 09-Apr-13 15:28:39

Really judey? do you mean the 8 week vacs?

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 15:30:39

if he wants vaccine-refusers to vaccinate he has to engage with people's concerns

That is true and I am frustrated this doesn't happen/happen enough.

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 15:30:45

ADVERSE REACTIONS is the important one to look at the end if the leaflet.

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

MyDarlingClementine Tue 09-Apr-13 15:30:49

go vaccinate,

are the surgeries able to produce vaccinations then!?
Like the whole whooping cough problem?

Puddlelane Tue 09-Apr-13 15:31:42

Does anyone else feel just as confused? I swing between feeling the scare mongery, not being told the truth and just general confusion!

Where is Dr Ranji when you need him?

PluserixtheGaul Tue 09-Apr-13 15:34:17

But that is on the back of studies which it says were "largely inadequate". "Largely inadequate" studies are by definition not "adequate", not "good enough". White man, he speak with forked tongue.

infamouspoo Tue 09-Apr-13 15:35:31

totally confused. I dont particuarlly want ds at 19 to have the MMR again because of confusion over whether mumps has worn off (and I suspect payment would be involved). If Dr Salisbury was vague then I expect the GP will be clueless as well. But nor do I want an adult male to get mumps. When ds was little the vaccination schedule was completely different to now so fuck knows what he had and when and what (red book was lost a long time ago).

Do you reckon he could have a blood test to check for immunity to measles and mumps? Would it cost money? Would it be accurate? Is it too early to open wine?

Puddlelane Tue 09-Apr-13 15:36:25

Ok so just to clarify the manufacturers and the gove guidelines are conflicting?
Sorry BF and sorting a toddler!

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:36:51

tbh, there was nothing in todays webchat which would persuade me to go and give my 8 month old the mmr (even in an outbreak area).

conversely, there was a lot unanswered/unaddressed/plain ignored which would (if I were wavering at all) make me think twice.

why are the stats on the latest outbreak not available? Dr David must have known he would be asked vaccinated/unvaccinated rates, and yet he eas unable (or unwilling?) to be anything other than vague about answering. how is that meant to reassure people?

the bluster about the urabe strain was also astonishing.

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 09-Apr-13 15:37:34

saintlyjimjams

OMG silverfrog you were deleted!!! Was that the one where you said he didn't really answer anything.

Shame on you MNHQ :waits for post to go pop:

The post wasn't deleted because of what it said but because of the way it was said. Of course folks are allowed to disagree/scrutinise/question - there's loads of of that going on here - but we thought the "thanks for giving up your precious hmm time" was rude and was therefore deleted for breaking our webchat guidelines.

Sunnywithshowers Tue 09-Apr-13 15:38:07

silverfrog I don't think all GPs are reluctant to test. I had mumps symptoms last year and phoned my GP - she agreed I should stay at home and I was sent a swab testing kit.

It wasn't mumps, funnily enough.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:39:03

when I took dd1 for her mmr, I was not allowed ot see the package insert (until I insisted, and the nurse had a tantrum and threw it at me) - I was supposed to sign for the vaccine, stating informed consent, without having anything at all to read.

there has been nothing to suggest that I would be any more informed if I took ds along now, 6 years later.

slightlysoupstained Tue 09-Apr-13 15:40:13

Okay, I withdraw "bitching", and will rephrase as "Please take the generic anti-vac 'ooh, chance to take a pop at the Government' elsewhere." If you feel that applies to you, then feel free to get huffy about it.

You know how these chats generally work - there is never time to answer all the questions, and the more people there are trying to turn it into a bunfight, the less chance anyone in or near an outbreak area has of getting their question read, let alone answered.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:40:30

Justine, I did NOT say 'thanks for giving up your precious hmm time.'

I said
'well, that was informative hmm.

thanks to Dr David for giving up his precious time. <and more>'

please do not misrepresent in that way.

Puddlelane Tue 09-Apr-13 15:42:07

I agree with silver frog I don't feel any better about it at all.

Lamazeroo Tue 09-Apr-13 15:45:04

How disappointing. I really didn't learn anything from that.

PluserixtheGaul Tue 09-Apr-13 15:46:57

"But that is on the back of studies which it says were "largely inadequate". "Largely inadequate" studies are by definition not "adequate", not "good enough". White man, he speak with forked tongue."

This was intended to be a reply to Catharina JTV about the re-assurances in Cochrane's plain language summary, which aren't worth the paper they are not printed on.

I am also not surprised re Catharina that Dr Salisbury does not address refusers' concerns about adverse reactions. The policy has been hard nosed denial for 25 years - how can he change now? What could he possibly say?

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 15:48:20

I have never had problems to get a package insert in the UK, didn't even have to be forceful. The problem was to find someone to give us the vaccine we wanted, between a clueless GP and an overworked nurse who hung up on me (probably assuming she was dealing with a pesky vaccine refuser grin )...

I don't think anyone was trying to turn it into a bunfight - just asking for further clarification of vague answers. We knew 'most' children in the current outbreak are unvaccinated (it would be very worrying indeed if they weren't) but it's valid to ask whether 25% have been. People from both sides of the 'fence' were asking for clarification of the figures.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:51:21

it surprised me, Catherina - I wasn't even a non-vaccinator back then (it was the first in a long line of many things which made me question how I was being treated, though).

dd1 had been for all of her catch-up jabs (only catch up as we had lived abroad, and therefore she was 'out of schedule"), which also entailed a fair few repeats.

everything bang on time, until the mmr, which she had 6 weeks late, as she had been unwell.

no reason for the stroppiness at all. no reason to think I would refuse (I am just anal about not signing anything when I haven't done what it is asking me to state I have done, iyswim) - just a blanket 'oh, no, you don't want that, just sign here dearie, and we'll get on with it', and then a ridiculous stand off where she refused to hand it over.

all most odd.

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Tue 09-Apr-13 15:51:46

Most disappointed in the answers tbh.

My children were not given the mmr with the backing of my gp due to family history but now they are older and with the current outbreak i was reconsidering and actually have an app.on the 18th april to discuss mmr and get them done. This has left me feeling confused and wary.

Not helpful at all.

infamouspoo Tue 09-Apr-13 15:52:55

I'm intrigued at how MNHQ can tell our tone through the computer <peers at webcam thingy and waves at Justine>
wink

LadyIsabellaWrotham Tue 09-Apr-13 15:53:20

I had the opposite problem Catherina. I turned up for pre school boosters and asked was it OK to give them on the same day as second dose of MMR, and nurse said "Oh, I quite understand, you shouldn't do anything you have any doubts about, feel free to just leave it all for today and have you considered homeopathy shock angry." I was t

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 09-Apr-13 15:53:44

silverfrog

Justine, I did NOT say 'thanks for giving up your precious hmm time.'

I said
'well, that was informative hmm.

thanks to Dr David for giving up his precious time. <and more>'

please do not misrepresent in that way.

Yes sorry you are right - it was the "precious" time that seemed unnecessarily rude to us - worth taking a look at our webchat guidelines to avoid being deleted in future. Thanks.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Tue 09-Apr-13 15:53:52

I had the opposite problem Catherina. I turned up for pre school boosters and asked was it OK to give them on the same day as second dose of MMR, and nurse said "Oh, I quite understand, you shouldn't do anything you have any doubts about, feel free to just leave it all for today and have you considered homeopathy shock angry." I was too shocked even to report her.

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 09-Apr-13 15:54:29

infamouspoo

I'm intrigued at how MNHQ can tell our tone through the computer <peers at webcam thingy and waves at Justine>
wink

<waves back>

LadyIsabellaWrotham Tue 09-Apr-13 15:55:21

Sorry for double post.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:55:53

Apology accepted, justine, thanks.

'Well that was informative hmm ' is too rude for mumsnet now? Really.

And he did give vague answers. It was disappointing.

infamouspoo Tue 09-Apr-13 15:57:27

urk. How's my hair looking Justine. Ive had a nap grin

Oh I'm behind.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 15:58:02

Also want to add <doubt it will be accepted, but there you go>

'twas just manners, innit?

One can disagree with what someone is saying, and indeed their whole stance, and yet still be polite at the end of the discussion.

It is not necessary to judge everyone by the lowest common denominator.

I don't think anyone was rude to him were they? Considering some of us have severely disabled children who may (or may not) have been affected by vaccination I think emotion was kept well out of it, it was polite and valid questions were asked (and on the whole not answered).

It is allowed to point out when he hasn't really given the details requested surely?

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 16:01:03

Pluserix - I do take your point. However, as far as I am aware, the Cochrane Collaboration has exceptional standards for "high quality" studies (I just finished reading "Testing Treatments" - can highly recommend to understand their mind set). The studies that have been done still have some informational value and the epidemiology certainly shows high efficiency.

Pluserix can I just say I am loving your name.

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 16:02:19

feel free to just leave it all for today and have you considered homeopathy

yikes!

Puddlelane Tue 09-Apr-13 16:03:53

I was disappointed too.

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 09-Apr-13 16:11:49

saintlyjimjams

I don't think anyone was rude to him were they? Considering some of us have severely disabled children who may (or may not) have been affected by vaccination I think emotion was kept well out of it, it was polite and valid questions were asked (and on the whole not answered).

It is allowed to point out when he hasn't really given the details requested surely?

Yes, of course SJJ - as lots have on the thread, no?

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 09-Apr-13 16:13:08

saintlyjimjams

'Well that was informative hmm ' is too rude for mumsnet now? Really.

And he did give vague answers. It was disappointing.

No, it was use of word "precious", as explained - seemed sarky and rude to me.

IwishIwasmoreorganised Tue 09-Apr-13 16:14:36

It seems that the points i raised were addressed today, unfortunately in such a vague way that I am none the wiser.

What a shame that Dr David was unable to give more objective information.

As the old saying goes, 'if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing properly'.

PluserixtheGaul Tue 09-Apr-13 16:17:54

Catharina JTV

"I have never had problems to get a package insert in the UK, didn't even have to be forceful. The problem was to find someone to give us the vaccine we wanted, between a clueless GP and an overworked nurse who hung up on me (probably assuming she was dealing with a pesky vaccine refuser )..."

I wasn't a vaccine refuser until I saw what they did, and the blanket indifference of the DH (not to mention the bare-faced hostility of MHRA yellow card system). Most years, btw, there are no pay outs at all from the discretionary fund and the max. pay out is £120k. For me, however, the biggest issue is not the money but the lack of accountability which makes the system unsafe.

Yes sorry Justine - I did apologise after my post for being behind.

PluserixtheGaul Tue 09-Apr-13 16:24:51

There is a Grande Illusion that somehow government is trustworthy in this sphere even though no one trusts them about anything else, but the reality is that the successfully perpetuated myth of vaccine safety is undermining safety itself.

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 16:30:41

It puzzled me when parents are called anti-vaccine when they have given their child vaccines and then the child has had a bad reaction. That is so unfair. Also parents who ask questions are also called anti-vaccine. We all have a right to ask questions as our children's health is involved. We are not sheep who will just do as we are told. I gave my four boys all their vaccines and I also had my vaccines until two of my boys lives were destroyed by very bad reactions. My first two boys did not have the MMR vaccine because they had the measles virus in the first year of their live. When the first of the second two had a bad reaction I was told it was not the vaccine and even my Dad said doctors know best so I waited longer wondering what to do for my forth son and through great pressure from his doctor gave in. That was the biggest mistake of my son's life. The vaccine strain measles virus has been found in the damaged tissue of the bowels and blood of my sons and then I was told to prove it caused their reactions! Another parent's son was very ill after having the MMR vaccine when he was much older and suffered brain problems. They had to remove a small part of his damaged brain because he would not stop fitting and found the vaccine strain measles virus in the damaged part of his brain. It took a year for the parents to get the results back. The parents took the results to their sons doctor and he said 'what do you want me to do with that? When I took my son (who suffers from very high fevers amongst other symptoms ) to the doctor he knew they were part of the Lancet study and said to me I don't want politics brought into my office and I said this is my sick son and not politics. He said the illness my son had was out of his remit. The big problem is that doctors do not know how to treat vaccine damaged children as their symptoms are not what they are trained for. Autistic type children who are also very sick make them nervous and one hospital doctor told me they would never get money for research and doctors are too frightened as they do not want to be attacked like Dr. Wakefield. Remember if you have a vaccine damaged child you are 'blacklisted' by the medical profession. Hundreds of parents have also said the same. Your damaged child is a reminder of what can go wrong and they do not want to be reminded.

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 16:32:06

PluserixtheGaul There is a Grande Illusion that somehow government is trustworthy in this sphere even though no one trusts them about anything else, but the reality is that the successfully perpetuated myth of vaccine safety is undermining safety itself.

Well said PluserixtheGaul

Wibblypiglikesbananas Tue 09-Apr-13 16:36:28

I'm British but not in the UK so unfortunately missed the chance to post in time. My DD followed the UK vaccination schedule until we moved to the US and she is now following this.

I'd be interested to know why vaccines aren't compulsory in the UK? Here in the US, you can't attend playgroup, start school or attend any kind of government run childcare without having a certificate that says you've been vaccinated against a number of illnesses, including MMR, plus hep A/B and chickenpox, which aren't standard in the UK.

I have to say that I was uneasy with this concept when we first came here. It felt rather big brother-ish. However, given the current issues in the UK due to low uptake of vaccines, I'm more and more convinced that this would be a good idea. Just wondered what anyone else thought?

(Also wanted to add that if there is history of reactions to jabs in the family, you can be exempted.)

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 16:37:27

Brain Damage - Payout For MMR Vaccine Disaster

A mother whose son suffered severe brain damage after he was given the controversial MMR vaccine as a baby has been awarded £90,000 compensation. The judgment is the first of its kind to be revealed since concerns were raised about the safety of the triple jab. The Government refuses to say how many awards have been directly attributed to this jab rather than other inoculations against illnesses such as diphtheria or whooping cough. Details of successful claims involving vaccine-damaged children are seldom publicised because the Department of Health is thought to be anxious not to encourage a rush of applications. Figures released in 2005 under the Freedom of Information Act revealed that tribunals had paid out £3.5 million over the previous eight years. Tory MP Nadine Dorries, a member of the powerful Commons Health Committee, said: ‘If an independent panel has reached the conclusion that there has been a link between the MMR vaccin e and the brain damage suffered by this boy in this case, then it is fair to assume that there could be as many as thousands of children and parents in the same position.'

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 16:42:33

Rogue strain of MMR vaccine 'caused deafness'
A rogue strain of the vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella has been found to have caused deafness in at least two children, it has been claimed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9521728/Rogue-strain-of-MMR-vaccine-caused-deafness.html

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 16:44:41

Vaccines

The vaccine strain measles virus has been found in the damaged tissue of the bowels and blood of my sons

who found the vaccine strain measles virus in your son's body? Because that kind of claim is exactly what is debated amongst scientists, most recently, in this article by Dr Bustin who was one of the Autism Omnibus Proceedings experts.

www.intechopen.com/books/recent-advances-in-autism-spectrum-disorders-volume-i/why-there-is-no-link-between-measles-virus-and-autism

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 16:44:42

http://alteredge.myfreeforum.org/archive/italy-%E2%80%93-court-holds-mmr-vaccine-causes-autism__o_t__t_774.html

Read the above link as the UK newspapers will not publish any payments on vaccine damage.
Italy – Court Holds MMR Vaccine Causes Autism

Autism Caused by MMR Vaccine – Italian Government Tries To Avoid Paying Up – Just Like the UK

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 16:46:10

http://www.jabs.org.uk/were-all-of-these-children.html

Were All Of These Children Killed By The Triple MMR Jab?

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 16:46:14

"rogue" hmm science by press release clearly doesn't work...

Wibbly - the uptake isn't low (have a look at the HPA figures and the latest JCVI minutes where they say they are very pleased with uptake.) Add in singles & I suspect most areas are at 95% - it's a shame the DS didn't address that today though (I did mention it).

Also you can attend school in the States without vaccination (& Australia & France & everywhere else that is cited - I know people who do, usually it's a case of signing done form of objection).

Vaccines - the system has badly let you down sad

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 16:47:19

The Italy decision will not stand though - they just heard the absolute anti-vaccine clowns as "experts" (I read the ruling - still wait to get my hands on the transcripts).

soulsurviver Tue 09-Apr-13 16:47:53

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

While we're on accountability can someone please explain the logic behind only paying compensation for death due to vaccination if the death occurrs after the age of two. I have never understood that aspect of the vaccine compensation scheme or the logic behind it.

soulsurviver Tue 09-Apr-13 16:48:53

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 16:52:22

Court Awards $969,474.91 for MMR Vaccine Causing Boy’s Autism

Court Awards $969,474.91 for MMR Vaccine Causing Boy's Autism
Jan 18th, 2013 | By Jeffry John Aufderheide | Category: Jeffry John Aufderheide

A California boy was awarded close to a million dollars for a vaccine causing his Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD).
Do vaccines cause autism? Many parents think so -- and the story is very familiar to many of us. Parents often report their child regressing into an "autistic-like state" shortly after being vaccinated. This term has become broadly known as Autism Spectrum Disorder.

soulsurviver Tue 09-Apr-13 16:53:08

theres microchips the size of a grain of rice now. could quite easily be placed into a vaccine

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 16:54:57

Court Awards $969,474.91 for MMR Vaccine Causing Boy’s Autism

Court Awards $969,474.91 for MMR Vaccine Causing Boy's Autism
Jan 18th, 2013 | By Jeffry John Aufderheide | Category: Jeffry John Aufderheide

A California boy was awarded close to a million dollars for a vaccine causing his Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD).
Do vaccines cause autism? Many parents think so -- and the story is very familiar to many of us. Parents often report their child regressing into an "autistic-like state" shortly after being vaccinated. This term has become broadly known as Autism Spectrum Disorder.

soulsurviver Tue 09-Apr-13 16:57:25

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

PluserixtheGaul Tue 09-Apr-13 16:58:32

Wibblypiglikesbananas

I know many people in the US who consider the position horrendous - also despite this (or because of it) the US fall ever further down the league tables for child mortality and health, while the mandated programme expands indefinitely as a result of pharma lobbying. However, the probable reason why successive UK governments (and Dr Salisbury) have not wanted compulsory vaccination is that they don't want proper liability. They want parents to make the choice (usually on the basis of their propaganda) to take the legal responsibility out of their hands. Also, I suspect, the ruling classes don't want to be forced to vaccinate their own children. This is different in the US because there are financial and administrative sanctions on people to vaccinate in the US which don't affect the very wealthy, but I doubt whether this would be acceptable politics here.

Having said all this I note that the position in Australia is shifting, and may possibly be some model for the future in the UK (I profoundly hope not).

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 17:04:16

holy conspiracy theory - a grain of rice "easily" fitting into a vaccine? Well done for discrediting totally relevant concerns around vaccines/vaccination policy, sheesh.

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 17:05:56

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/mmr-causes-autism-italian-court-translation/

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 17:06:21

actually, what was compensated was the "classical" table injury MMR leading to encephalitis www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/saeid-b-mojabi-and-parivash-vahabi-parents-and-legal-representatives-their-minor-son-ryan-b-mojabi-v

soulsurviver Tue 09-Apr-13 17:08:01

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

soulsurviver Tue 09-Apr-13 17:09:20

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

slightlysoupstained Tue 09-Apr-13 17:12:34

Syringe of death? That's not trying to be manipulative or button pushing at all now, is it?

Wibblypiglikesbananas Tue 09-Apr-13 17:12:41

Hi PTG, it's a real eye opener being here, particularly since opinion is so widely divided amongst the American friends we have (many of whom are doctors) and then the more international crowd, each nationality bringing with it their own views, experiences and norms.

SJJ - With regards to signing an opt out form, in the state I'm in, you literally cannot attend any government run public school or playscheme without having been vaccinated. The rules are slightly different for the private schools - so generally speaking the international schools - though many still ask for the state health declaration forms to be filled in. Consequently, if you are rich enough to afford private schooling then perhaps you can opt out. For the majority, however, who rely on the state system, there is no choice (for good or bad).

'Low' uptake, maybe that was the wrong way to phrase it. Lower than optimum perhaps? The flip side being that if the vaccinations were compulsory, there'd have been an even higher take up, one would assume.

AmandinePoulain Tue 09-Apr-13 17:12:50

As a nurse I'd love to see the size of the needle that would fit something the size of a grain of rice in it...hmm

slightlysoupstained Tue 09-Apr-13 17:13:59

Did you join just to post scary links?

The basics
soulsurviver joined Mumsnet in 2013. He lives in sussex. He is 46.
What he says about himself
im a person who loves you ladies very much. even as part of my religion as wiccan. i wish to promote some very controversial alternative news for everyone to consider. i want empowerment for all but especially women as i believe its your time to step up and save humanity.

I think for most states you can get a religious or philosophical objection though? I know there are a few you can't. In Australia it seemed simpler to opt out.

A lawyer friend did tell me European law would make it very difficult to introduce compulsory vaccination here (although I cannot remember the details). I know friends in France who have had no problem accessing school despite no vaccinations at all (they said it seemed to be more about needing something to file, rather than what that piece of paper actually said).

Oh there was an interesting paper comparing systems - can't search now but will see if I can find later. It was an interesting read

Vaccines Tue 09-Apr-13 17:30:33

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/busting-rules-f-edward-yazbak-part-2-3

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/06/14/us-mmr-litigation-%e2%80%93-the-truth-%e2%80%93-and-was-dr-stephen-bustin-a%c2%a0reliable%c2%a0witness/

The position is complex - first of all there is no witness corroboration for Bustin's attack on O'Leary's lab. Also he admitted under cross-examination that the findings in high copy numbers were reliable, and had been replicated in other labs.

I have official documents stating that the vaccine strain measles virus was found in both by boys.

Wibblypiglikesbananas Tue 09-Apr-13 17:31:40

You can try - though whether it's accepted or not is another matter! And honestly? You have to be the kind of person who has the wherewithall and resources to know to object in the first place, in fact to know that you can object at all, as all official paperwork, paediatricians etc, doesn't/don't publicise this. In a number of public (govermment run) school catchment areas in my state, the social problems are immense and (gross generalisation, I know, but if you've seen these areas, you'll know), fighting government rules on jabs just isn't going to happen. Hence, everyone's vaccinated.

Sunnywithshowers Tue 09-Apr-13 17:33:02

I'm highly amused at 'Syringe of Death'. Hyperbole much?

Oh I'm sure wibbly. The people I know who have got around it very switched on and wealthy. They may well have used the private system (didn't think to ask - don't know them that well).

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 17:52:40

whoa! hang on, why have Vaccines' posts all been deleted?

What silverfrog said

infamouspoo Tue 09-Apr-13 18:05:42

Why has the main dissenting voice been silenced. I was interested in her point of view.

I think it is really important to answer this mumsnet. Especially as she identified she was a Lancet study 'mother'. I really hope you can confirm that they were deleted at her request.

Puddlelane Tue 09-Apr-13 18:10:25

Where did vaccines posts go?

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Tue 09-Apr-13 18:10:56

Wtf why have so many posts been deleted, they were sharing their story and some links, how is that against guidlines?

An explanation please mnhq?!!

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Tue 09-Apr-13 18:11:50

If they were deleted at her request it would say "removed at posters request" not deleted for breaking guidelines!

DinoSnores Tue 09-Apr-13 18:13:48

soulsurvivor said, "To a person with normal health, measles is an unpleasant illness but presents no danger of permanent effects. Everyone of our generation had measles and everyone always recovered. It was never referred to as a life-threatening disease."

This is NONSENSE and a dangerous lie. People can die from measles.

In 2011 the WHO estimated that there were 158,000 deaths caused by Measles. Mortality in developed countries is ~1/1000. In sub-Saharan Africa, mortality is 10%. In cases with complications, the rate may rise to 20–30%. In 2010, approximately 380 deaths occurred every day from measles.

Roald Dahl's daughter famously died of measles.

http://berkshireskeptics.org.uk/blog/2012/09/19/measles-a-dangerous-illness-by-roald-dahl/

An older friend in his 60s and his twin had measles as children. His twin died. He was 'just' left deaf. Another 35 year old friend is deaf because of measles.

DinoSnores Tue 09-Apr-13 18:14:11
silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 18:17:33

agree, if they were deleted at Vaccines' request it would have said 'message withdrawn/deleted at poster's request'

I assume they haven't been deleted for trolling, as one post remains.

Yes 5eggs I know, but I am clinging to the hope that there has been an admin error there. I can't think of any other explanation that is ethical really.

Also vaccines gave enough information to be easily verifiable if mnhq are concerned about that.

5madthings Tue 09-Apr-13 18:23:53

Well yes saintly I agree, I hope its a mistake and not just that mnhq are complicit in stifling debate about vaccines.

Ffs we are all parents trying to do the best by our children!

This question and answer session is not helping me feel confident in my choice to have the mad things vaccinated next week having declined previously for medical reasons.

Back to my non easter name BTW!

Ironic really as I was writing only yesterday about how the parents of the Lancet children feel they have not been heard. I posted a link to a statement written by 8 of them.

Still hoping that despite appearances it was on her request.

Sorry a statement written by the parents of 8 of the children :pedantic:

I suppose keep the appointment & go armed with a list of questions madthings - good luck!

PluserixtheGaul Tue 09-Apr-13 18:27:59

CatharinaJTV

Bustin's evidence was equivocal - he admitted the high copy number were valid but attacked O'Leary's reputation (but there was no corroboration for his assertions). I also note the NIH paper (Hornig) that followed up O'Leary/Uhlmann played down the association of MMR with autism but did detect measles RNA in the bowel of two sick children. It states in the discussion:

"Our results differ with reports noting MV RNA in ileal biopsies of 75% of ASD vs. 6% of control children...Discrepancies are unlikely to represent differences in experimental technique because similar primer and probe sequences, cycling conditions and instruments were employed in this and earlier reports; furthermore, one of the three laboratories participating in this study performed the assays described in earlier reports. Other factors to consider include differences in patient age, sex, origin (Europe vs. North America), GI disease, recency of MMR vaccine administration at time of biopsy, and methods for confirming neuropsychiatric status in cases and controls."

I think we can deduce from this that measles RNA can be detected in the ileum of some sick, previously vaccinated children, irrespective of whether they are autistic or not.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 18:28:06

well quite, saintly, re: being identifiable.

which is why I said if deleted for trolling (ie, it wasn't actually Vaccines, but someone claiming to be them, iyswim) then it was odd that one post remained, as whole account would have been deleted, surely.

not suggesting for a second that Vaccines is a troll

Well no - and what she said on here matches what i have seen elsewhere. It didn't really look like trolling to me? Surely no-one would pretend to be a Lancet mother - too easy to check.

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 18:33:10

Hornig found the measles virus in one healthy control and one autistic child! I will read the Bustin chapter now. I found his initial testimony quite comprehensive, but it is a while since I read the Cedillo transcripts...

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 18:38:22

but then that leaves the question of why the deletions.

and that is not looking good, tbh.

here's hoping you're right with your admin error.

5madthings Tue 09-Apr-13 18:40:17

Normally they come on and explain if something is deleted because it makes a poster identifiable and tbh it us the posters choice to divuldge info or not.

saintly I will tbh its more mumps I am concerned about with found boys, the eldest two are 13 and almost 11 so at an age where it would not be good to get it. The others are 8,5 and dd is 27mths. I feel she is too young but if in have the other four vaccinated and not her worry about putting her at more risk. And one of the children in ds4's re option class had measles before easter and was in hospital. We are not in an outbreak area.

Its mainly that I reacted badly and have crappy immune system and ds1 reacted badly to the first immunizations so the others haven't has any. My gp was supportive and helped us make an informed choice. We are now with a new go surgery and they haven't been happy at the non vaccinated status so I don't feel they will be great to talk to tbh.

I really hope there is a reasonable explanation. I'm not sure I can stay here if there isn't sad

I have reported an earlier post of mine asking for an explanation so HQ should be aware that some of us are wondering.

Oh that's a shame 5mad. But I do know what you mean - our last GP was brilliant, current ones not so much. Could you request a referral to an immunologist? Is that what they're called? You sound as if you have ago of reason for one.

*a good

5madthings Tue 09-Apr-13 18:48:34

Four boys not found.

And yes I might but I can just imagine the eye rolling I will get...

Its a minefield would much rather stick my head in the sand and ignore it but couldn't live with myself if I did

PluserixtheGaul Tue 09-Apr-13 18:50:43

'Hornig found the measles virus in one healthy control and one autistic child! I will read the Bustin chapter now. I found his initial testimony quite comprehensive, but it is a while since I read the Cedillo transcripts..."

It was unfortunately a very small study, and as they admitted a very different group of participants.

Lol at sand sticking - no whatever you decide it has to be something you can live with. That was the best bit of advice I ever got actually - 'you have to do what you can live with'.

I have heard very good reports of inmunologists (is that what they're called - it sounds wrong & I can't goole atm) so it might be worth it if you can bear the eye rolling smile

*immu etc not inmu

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 19:36:55

Pluserix, the study was well large enough with 25 kids to detect the huge rate of measles virus occurrence that Wakefield and colleagues reported. Bustin's explanation on how samples must have been contaminated are very logical (I do speak PCR though) so the easiest explanation (apart from "it was all a lie") is a laboratory contamination. I read the Bustin article just now and it is not as "lay suitable" as his Cedillo testimony but it says the same thing, maybe read either?

mummysmellsofsick Tue 09-Apr-13 19:38:41

Also very disappointed with the unexplained deletions. Why can we not have an open debate about this matter? Children have been compensated for MMR damage, and many parents feel they have not been listened to, and their children's sudden changes in health after the MMR have been brushed off as coincidence. For this reason I feel very uncomfortable about trusting any data about efficacy or safety. I'm not one for conspiracy theories but too much pharmaceutical money is at stake in this matter for the debate to be open and reasonable, and too many public health decisions are taken based on research funded by those same companies. Please allow an open debate MNHQ

brighton68 Tue 09-Apr-13 19:50:42

The concept of herd immunity is a total myth, herd immunity has never been scientifically proven nor studied.
How many of the affected in Swansea have been fully vaccinated? The MMR vaccine is unsafe and like all vaccines it is not 100% effective.
If you study the history of childhood diseases you will see quite clearly that the mortality and incidence of these diseases declined by as much as 95% prior to vaccination. This was due to improved sanitation, nutrition etc. I would suggest anyone interested should research Antoine BeChamp and his take on the germ theory.
Also look at the following website, www.informedparent.co.uk, lots of excellent info there.
Whatever you do, ensure you make an informed decision, don't give in to scaremongering.

Dementedhousewife Tue 09-Apr-13 19:55:30

Where have vaccines posts gone?

slatternlymother Tue 09-Apr-13 19:56:38

Is there any argument for leaving the MMR until later, as I've heard a few times on here? If this is something people do, can they please explain to me why this would be and how it might be safer to do this?

I ask as a genuine question. thanks

MyDarlingClementine Tue 09-Apr-13 20:15:33

does anyone know if the single vaccines before mmr were known to cause any probs, why did they change to mmr?

IwishIwasmoreorganised Tue 09-Apr-13 20:22:17

Has anyone heard from MNHQ why the majority of Vaccines posts have been deleted?

It is an emotive topic, but one that we are all entitled to have our opinions on.

Explanation please MNHQ.

slatternly - some models for the development of autism are 'time sensitive' so in other words there are critical periods of development (of the brain) where an environmental factor may have an effect, which might not be seen with exposure during a different developmental periods. These are models though so there isn't necessarily much evidence yet.

Leaving the MMR later does increase slightly the success of the measles component. It used to be given at 15-18 months and there is some evidence that it works slightly better at that stage. Although as more mothers now have vaccine induced immunity rather than infection induced immunity maternal antibodies are less likely to interfere with the infant's immune system (this is what usually causes the vaccine failure) and so 13 months is perhaps more likely to be effective.

I personally was never convinced by the move to 13 months from 15 months as the papers I have read don't really back this move up, but it may have been because babies were starting to be infected in higher numbers. It's the sort of question it would have been interesting to have answered today. It is a difficult one to get right as increasing the likelihood of the vaccine working by giving it later also increases the risk of having a susceptible baby without any immunity for longer.

I think vaccines is more entitled than most to have an opinion on the MMR as she identified herself as being a Lancet-12 mother. Shame MNHQ haven't provided an explanation. I didn't see her being rude or abusive.

I still really want to believe there is a reasonable explanation though, so maybe the absence of one is due to night shift taking over.

slatternlymother Tue 09-Apr-13 20:35:54

What is Lancet 12? I've Googled but it's quite unclear confused

slatternlymother Tue 09-Apr-13 20:36:55

Thank you saintly

The "Lancet 12" were the children in the original Wakefield publication. So one of the mothers was on the thread (being polite and non-abusive). She identified herself as such and shared her story (politely). Now all her posts have been deleted.

There may be a reasonable explanation.

RebeccaMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 09-Apr-13 20:43:08

Hi all,

We have a couple of new posters who are posting with links on a single issue and under normal circs, posts would be removed when reported and this has been done on this occasion in good faith.

However, we can see how this could be viewed as being a little over zealous, apologies. We are certainly not trying to silence critics.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 20:45:46

did you actually read any of the posts, and wonder whether deleting them would be seen as silencing people with valid experience (I won't say critics because, tbh, it was a personal account borne out of experience)

I would not find it odd that a poster would be moved to join to ask questions of a guest such as David Salisbury. especially if they had questions such as the ones Vaccines posed.

weak explanation, imo.

PluserixtheGaul Tue 09-Apr-13 20:47:40

"Pluserix, the study was well large enough with 25 kids to detect the huge rate of measles virus occurrence that Wakefield and colleagues reported. Bustin's explanation on how samples must have been contaminated are very logical (I do speak PCR though) so the easiest explanation (apart from "it was all a lie") is a laboratory contamination. I read the Bustin article just now and it is not as "lay suitable" as his Cedillo testimony but it says the same thing, maybe read either?"

No, the authors themselves did not claim this (passage I quoted), while demonstrating plausibility of the original findings (their findings including the two positive ones replicated across three laboratories), even endorsing them. It is obviously not the case that Wakefield had ever posited that this was sole cause of autism, but there might be a significant sub-group - the Royal Free team were locating many such patients.

I don't think there's much point in touting reputation (Bustin good, Wakefield bad etc.), the issue is just not resolved because it is a political hot potato.

Incidentally, since people go on about Wakefield making money it emerges from the Cedillo transcript that Bustin had received £225,000 in expert fees for the case before he got to the US.

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 09-Apr-13 20:51:25

silverfrog

did you actually read any of the posts, and wonder whether deleting them would be seen as silencing people with valid experience (I won't say critics because, tbh, it was a personal account borne out of experience)

I would not find it odd that a poster would be moved to join to ask questions of a guest such as David Salisbury. especially if they had questions such as the ones Vaccines posed.

weak explanation, imo.

Yes you are right Silverfrog - it was an honest mistake but it was a bit kneejerk. Will see about getting those personal stories reinstated. Apologies once more. (Am really in the doghouse today)

IwishIwasmoreorganised Tue 09-Apr-13 20:51:27

But surely posting links about a topic on a thread about that topic is part of what MN is all about?

PluserixtheGaul Tue 09-Apr-13 20:52:37

"Pluserix, the study was well large enough with 25 kids to detect the huge rate of measles virus occurrence that Wakefield and colleagues reported. Bustin's explanation on how samples must have been contaminated are very logical (I do speak PCR though) so the easiest explanation (apart from "it was all a lie") is a laboratory contamination. I read the Bustin article just now and it is not as "lay suitable" as his Cedillo testimony but it says the same thing, maybe read either?"

No, the authors themselves did not claim this (passage I quoted), while demonstrating plausibility of the original findings (their findings including the two positive ones replicated across three laboratories), even endorsing them. It is obviously not the case that Wakefield had ever posited that this was sole cause of autism, but there might be a significant sub-group - the Royal Free team were locating many such patients.

I don't think there's much point in touting reputation (Bustin good, Wakefield bad etc.), the issue is just not resolved because it is a political hot potato.

Incidentally, since people go on about Wakefield making money it emerges from the Cedillo transcript that Bustin had received £225,000 in expert fees for the case before he got to the US.

Appalling explanation.

(1) Do you not think the mother of a child who was discussed at the GMC would have valid questions to ask of David Salisbury.
(2) What other issues would you have expected them to discuss on this thread?
(3) Why have you removed posts that did not include links - such as the ones where vaccines explained who she was, and where she described what happened to her children.

I am very close to leaving mumsnet over this tbh Justine.

edam Tue 09-Apr-13 21:07:41

and this is why people didn't trust the authorities over MMR... a mother of a child included in Wakefield's Lancet paper dares to speak about her own experience, and she is silenced. Again and again this happens - in this case no doubt inadvertently on the part of MN, but there's a pattern here and it does not build public confidence, quite the reverse.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 21:11:00

The explanation doesn't even hold together all that well.

In previous cases where posters were deleted for being new joiner, single issue posters, it tends ot be ALL posts by that poster deleted.

One of Vaccines' posts remained, so clearly not a blanket 'delete account' kneejerk reaction.

why did posts containing Vaccines' personal account get deleted? That fact that one post remained suggests the posts were deleted on a case by case basis, not a 'get rid of the lot' joblot deletion. so each post removed had a decision made about it.

The whole thing stinks.

RebeccaMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 09-Apr-13 21:11:38

saintlyjimjams

I am very close to leaving mumsnet over this tbh Justine.

Hey Saintly,

Please don't do that. We will go through all deleted now and reinstate some. As Justine said, it was a totally honest mistake - generally, if someone joins and posts lots of links about one subject, they are removed for spamming. We did have several reports about these posts and we responded in the usual way - we can see, now, that this was not appropriate on this occasion - apologies.

Beachcomber Tue 09-Apr-13 21:13:09

I have been following this thread closely but didn't post on it as doubt I would have remained civil to Salisbury.

Anyway, am posting now to say that I agree with saintly with regards to the bizarre deletions.

I would also like to say that I am very interested in what Vaccines has to say and thank her for coming on and posting. I would feel ashamed of MN if she has been driven away by this - we are a parenting community and if parents can't even be heard here than that is appalling. I suspect that Vaccines is used to being silenced and I for one refuse to participate in the silencing of parents like her. Enough.

WouldBeHarrietVane Tue 09-Apr-13 21:14:06

Saintly, it sounds as though MNHQ have listened to you and are putting them back up. Please don't go.

I was very disappointed my first q to him was not answered. Others were answered which were posted after mine.

What a shame official spokespeople will never discuss vaccination with any nuance. My dc are fully vaccinated, except that we chose measles single for now instead of mmr. We will give mmr later - at around 3.

Our reasons are:

1) a bad reaction of ds1
2) my family history of autoimmune/endocrine illnesses including thyroid, diabetes, PCOS and a rare one I won't mention as it might out me.

I think, sadly, there is an assumption that anyone selectively vaccinating is a lentil weaving nutter. I am very boringly mainstream and just still have concerns about mmr, despite reading the BMJ retraction of the Wakefield study.

Beachcomber Tue 09-Apr-13 21:16:12

Salisbury is invited to come on and post about a single issue (even if his posts were just patronising flannel) but parents are deleted for posting about their family's issues.

I hope HQ manages to reinstate ASAP.

MyDarlingClementine Tue 09-Apr-13 21:19:48

what has PCOS got to do with the vaccines Would?

CatherinaJTV Tue 09-Apr-13 21:23:35

I am with Saintly and Beachcomber here.

Pluserix - I think you misunderstand that passage from the Hornig paper - they are not endorsing anything in the previous paper.

redspottydress Tue 09-Apr-13 21:24:30

Totally agree with Edam.

WouldBeHarrietVane Tue 09-Apr-13 21:38:25

Clementine, probably nothing.

Thank you CatherinaJTV

I don't know what to think tbh wouldbe - hopefully they will be reinstated soon. I am genuinely shocked that someone thought it would be reasonable to delete them.

What a shame you haven't reinstated Vaccine's first post where she identifies herself as a Lancet case mother and comments that she requested to meet David Salisbury years ago but he was too busy. Then goes on to ask her question.

There were no links in that post as far as I can remember. Are you able to clarify why it has remained deleted. In fact you have reinstated posts of her with links, but none that i can see that tell her story.

WouldBeHarrietVane Tue 09-Apr-13 23:02:06

I think the rest of the posts won't make sense without the explanation that she is a Lancet case mother.

silverfrog Tue 09-Apr-13 23:08:27

An extraordinary decision, tbh.

The initial deletions were (allegedly) because Vaccines was 'spamming' with links.

except even a cursory read of her posts would have revealed that she wasn't.

now posts with links are reinstated (thus showing the initial deletion reasoning to be wrong), while posts with no links, but with highly relevant info are left deleted (so why were they deleted in the first place, and why not reinstated?)

this thing continues to stink.

Lamazeroo Tue 09-Apr-13 23:22:54

Wow. This entire thread has been a disaster - rigidly bland answers from a guest who refuses to engage with worried and confused parents, and then the most unintelligent action I've ever seen from MNHQ. All a bit sad.

MyDarlingClementine Tue 09-Apr-13 23:25:22

I am glad some posts have come back.

isnt the age that the MMR is given the age where things like autism show themselves?

I am v ignorant of it - I just thought at a year, its a clearer time to see if problems are occurring and that is co incidental with autism?

There are different types of autism Clemetine. It's not one thing. It's probably more accurate to talk about autisms. So some types of autism are present from birth and some types of autism are regressive. It's not particularly controversial to say that various environmental factors may trigger a regression in susceptible children. And there is a lot of work going into looking at potential triggers. There are probably many different ones.

I'm still hoping the posts telling vaccines story come back. I don't think I can stay on here and look fellow autism parents in the eye in they don't come back.

MyDarlingClementine Tue 09-Apr-13 23:42:57

Thanks Saintly, its confusing to someone who doesn't know much about it.

What is paramount though is that information can be shared, and people be able to talk about these things.

Once info is out there people can make up their own minds what to do with it, but it should not be denied.

I for one am glad Vaccine came on here today and I think it was v brave of her. I shall mull over what she and others have said.

Good luck Clementine

PluserixtheGaul Tue 09-Apr-13 23:45:51

CatharinaJTV

"Pluserix - I think you misunderstand that passage from the Hornig paper - they are not endorsing anything in the previous paper."

Anyone can read it for themselves.

SimLondon Wed 10-Apr-13 00:28:54

Don't just reinstate the deleted posts Justine, mumsnet has a voice, I must have read about 50 cases on here whose parents are utterly convinced the mmr caused something similar to autism, even if they are a tiny minority why have none of them been asked to take part in a study? why do they feel that their gp's dont want to know? mumsnet could commission their own independent study.

I think the fact mumsnet has a voice might be the problem Sim. Unless they really are as incompetent as they make out on this thread. Let's hope vaccines posts describing her family's story are reinstated. It doesn't look very good if they aren't as they most definitely did not break talk guidelines.

WouldBeHarrietVane Wed 10-Apr-13 07:50:56

I think the problem is, Saintly, that there is a lot of conspiracy theorising and general strangeness surrounding the vaccine debate in general. This gives those of us who have relatively sensible and thoughtfully held concerns a bad name.

MNHQ probably genuinely deleted just as a knee jerk thinking the posts were spamming the webchat. I was annoyed by some of the posts by others tbh eg injecting microchips etc.

Hopefully they are going to be reinstated this morning.

I think failing to reinstate the posts where vaccines identified herself as a Lancet mother & was mildly critical of David Salisbury (for being too busy to meet her years ago) is only going to fuel conspiracy theories though.

silverfrog Wed 10-Apr-13 08:12:24

They have had all night to re-read, think and reinstate. If they reinstate now it is more because of strenuous complaint than because the person/people on duty think they should be reinstated (if the person on duty thought that they should be reinstated, they already would be).

How anyone could think it right to reverse the decision on all the links and yet NOT reinstate the posts which told Vaccines' personal story of having a child who is vaccine damaged is beyond me. Especially since there is a long history of trying to silence the parents of the Lancet 12.

This is no longer the site for me. Stifling (apparently) unpalatable experiences is not what MN is supposed to be about.

Shame on you MNHQ.

PluserixtheGaul Wed 10-Apr-13 08:33:45

There is a fundamental issue here which is that governments don't believe ordinary people can be trusted with real information about vaccines, thus (to cite a relatively simple example) "the plain language summary" of the Cochrane Review of MMR doesn't repeat the statement in the abstract that safety studies are "largely inadequate". There is huge pressure on journalists now not to report anything which damages the public reputation of vaccines. The result is that there is no pressure to make sure that vaccines are safe, and huge animosity, even hate campaigns, against anyone who steps out of line or speaks up when it does go wrong. The exclusion here of one of the parents from 1998 Wakefield paper is a case in point. Last year it was established in the High Court with the exoneration of the senior author and lead clinician of that paper, Prof John Walker-Smith, that there was an awful lot right with it - but people are still talking as if everything they were told about it in the years from 2004 to 2012 was true.

BoundandRebound Wed 10-Apr-13 09:08:35

Bland and useless official commentary from guest expert and over moderation and clear bending to pressure from the site's owners. Despite the slightly giggly and self-effacing "oh it was a knee-jerk reaction, silly us" the knee-jerk hasn't been rectified. Why not?

I for one would like to read the Lancet mother's entire posts particularly the one with her story.

This is an edifying thread, unfortunately not in the way intended I'm sure

I think this whole thread can be summed up as:

Mumsnetter: "I have a question about the MM..."
Official la la I'm not listening type person: "MMR vaccination required"
Mumsnetter: "But what abou.."
Official la la I'm not listening type person: "MMR vaccination required"
Mumsnetter: "My child ha.."
Official la la I'm not listening type person: "MMR vaccination required"
Mumsnetter: "I'm concerned abou..."
Official la la I'm not listening type person: "MMR vaccination required"
Mumsnetter: "Should I be worried about the ..."
Official la la I'm not listening type person: "MMR vaccination required"

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 09:31:09

This is hideous.

A controversial public figure is given a platform on a massive well known website to answer questions about a controversial subject and we are expected to be totally uncritical of him and the government decisions and policy he represents. Even if we have been adversely affected by such decisions and policies.

Oookkaaaay Mumsnet hmm

I have never really been able to get the point of these webchats TBH. If it is a non-controversial figure like a writer or an actor then I guess they are sort of fun but this is just a public relations exercise to repeat the 'MMR is safe, vaccinate and don't ask questions' mantra that the government has been parroting since the Urabe fiasco.

Well I'm not a nodding dog and I will not support the censoring of parents and the uncritical platform that it appears we must offer Professor Salisbury.

Vaccines - I support you, the parents of the other Lancet children and all the other families around the world who are dealing with the consequences of the triple MMR vaccine.

I believe you 100% and I want to hear your story. Indeed in the interests of truth and parents supporting parents which is the ethos of this site IIRC I would like for you to be invited to do a webchat.

I for one would find it much more interesting than having government policy parroted at me in dumbed down language.

Like saintly, I will have to leave MN if this matter isn't cleared up. I don't want to give traffic to a website I'm ashamed of the politics and priorities of.

infamouspoo Wed 10-Apr-13 09:37:44

Agree with everything Beachcomber said. I want to hear what Vaccines has to say. ot nod along uncritically to the party line with Mister Avoidy-answers.

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 09:39:46

The question that I would have asked Professor Salisbury would have been;

Is there evidence that the measles virus is mutating and that the vaccine is becoming less relevant - is this why we have heard of entire classes of children coming down with measles in Swansea, regardless of their vaccine status? If that is the case do you think that panic talk about 'only a matter of time before there is a death', and pushing people to get a triple vaccine with a rocky safety record is responsible, or would it be much more reasonable public health policy to offer the single measles vaccine?

But I didn't bother to ask it.

CatherinaJTV Wed 10-Apr-13 10:02:16

regardless of their vaccine status

that is not the case. According to the PHW (more precise numbers to be published, hopefully soon), infection seen is consistent with vaccine efficiencies of 90% for 1x MMR and 99% for 2x MMR. That in turn is consistent with everything else we see in outbreaks in the developed world, even in familial = extra intensive contacts, 2x MMR has an > 95% efficiency.

5madthings Wed 10-Apr-13 10:05:10

Are mnet going to.put back vaccines posts about her story?

Are they going to.come back and answer the questions being asked?

This thread has moved out of the 'sticky' threads at the top of the page now, are mnhq hoping it just falls out of active conversations and gets forgotten about?!

Dementedhousewife Wed 10-Apr-13 10:28:01

Can't quite believe they have reinstated all but one of Vaccines posts.
Shame on you MN.

slightlysoupstained Wed 10-Apr-13 10:38:21

Hi Mumsnet,

Just wanted to say thank you very much for organising this webchat, I found it tremendously helpful - I didn't ask a question because I could see someone else had already asked the question I wanted to ask, which was one of the ones David Salisbury was able to answer in the time he had. This has saved me from a lot of unnecessary worry and stress - thank you!

Still no proper response MNHQ? Your email suggested it shouldn't take too long to be sorted.

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 10-Apr-13 10:55:11

saintlyjimjams

Still no proper response MNHQ? Your email suggested it shouldn't take too long to be sorted.

Hello hello. Sorry it's taking us so long. Nearly there!

AmandinePoulain Wed 10-Apr-13 10:58:02

I am grateful for this webchat too, living where I do. And given that the theme was the current outbreak I think that there was plenty of helpful information given. I also agree with Justine that some responses towards Dr Salisbury were rude, especially given that he is presumably a busy man and took the time to talk to us.

So thank you to MNHQ and thank you to Dr Salisbury thanks

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 11:18:37

Yes, it is interesting that the official figures correspond to exactly what would be expected isn't it CatherinaJTV?

My experience is that the main criteria doctors use to diagnose childhood disease is vaccination status.

When my DD1 was younger, she and a child she went to a childminders with, both came down with what appeared to be rubella within a week or so of each other. Both children were taken to the doctor - my DD who hadn't had MMR was diagnosed as having rubella, her little friend who had recently had MMR was diagnosed as having a non-specific virus. The other mother insisted on having her son tested (as I was pregnant at the time) and it turned out it was rubella. (BTW the vaccinated child became ill first so it would appear that not only did the vaccine fail but it may even have contributed. That or it was just a massive coincidence that he came down with rubella shortly after having a rubella vaccine and when there did not appear to be any other cases in our local environment.)

hawthornthree Wed 10-Apr-13 11:31:36

Seeing as Mumsnet have built their success around the women who have posted here over the years and given so much of their time to building the MN brand for so long [the intelligent woman/parent brand, as far as I remember] it seems acutely disrespectful of MNHQ to have behaved the way they have on this thread, presumably as a result of pressure from Salisbury's PR team.

I get it, I really do, the need to have maximum vaccination coverage to avoid more measles fatalities. But to silence people who have another story to tell just fosters and feeds the distrust. Public Health officials in the UK seem to originate from the same breed, peculiarly contemptuous of the general public and unable to engage in subtle or complex debate.

slightlysoupstained Wed 10-Apr-13 11:40:04

I think this thread is a great example of conspiracy theories run amok.

You don't think Lancet mother has a right to tell her story?

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 10-Apr-13 12:00:30

Right.

Apols for the delay in posting properly this morning.

Just for clarity, am going to try to sum up what happened with the deletions - which will mean I repeat much of what was said yesterday by RebeccaMN and JustineMN but I think it's probably better to have it all in one place (so please forgive me if you've read some of this before).

OK, so first off, Mumsnet webchats have slightly different guidelines to regular Talk threads. We do particularly ask folks to be civil/polite to our guests and we tend to delete posts that aren't civil/polite pretty promptly. A couple of posts were deleted during the chat for those reasons - although, as JustineMN posted, when we were asked about the deletion, we misquoted the deleted post. We have apologised for that - and do so again here.

Moving on to the other deletions last night...

We have a general rule across all our Talk boards, as we hope you all know (as it's in our general Talk Guidelines), that we will delete posts that link to blogs/articles/sites/retail 'opportunities' in a deliberately spammy way.

We do this because these posts tend to interrupt discussions and are often off-topic - and annoy the hell out of our regular posters. They also, understandably, annoy folks who have paid to advertise with us - and then see "chancers" cheekily trying to promote themselves for free.

Last night, both Vaccines' posts and soulsurviver's posts were seen by the MNHQer on duty as this kind of spam - because they contained so many links. And also because, in Vaccines' case, they were her first and only posts on MN and, in soulsurviver's case, we'd already deleted him for spamming (about debt control, as it happens) in the past.

As we subsequently posted last night, we made a mistake in Vaccines' case.

It was clear, in hindsight, that though Vaccines had only just joined and her posts did look, at first glance, to be spammy because of the proliferation of links, she was genuinely joining in the discussion.

We should not have deleted all her posts.

They have now all been reinstated (I hope - please let us know if we've missed any), with the exception of one which was, in our view, not civil/polite towards our webchat guest.

We are sorry for all this - particularly as, given the controversy and high emotions of the debate and the fact that we didn't post straightaway to explain why we were deleting the posts, it may well have looked to some as though we were censoring the discussion in some kind of rabid "pro-vaccine" way.

This couldn't be further from the truth. We're not in the business of censoring discussions, as we hope you all know. It was, truly, definitely a case of cock-up rather than conspiracy.

We hope that's all a bit clearer.

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 10-Apr-13 12:02:38

hawthornthree

Seeing as Mumsnet have built their success around the women who have posted here over the years and given so much of their time to building the MN brand for so long [the intelligent woman/parent brand, as far as I remember] it seems acutely disrespectful of MNHQ to have behaved the way they have on this thread, presumably as a result of pressure from Salisbury's PR team.

I get it, I really do, the need to have maximum vaccination coverage to avoid more measles fatalities. But to silence people who have another story to tell just fosters and feeds the distrust. Public Health officials in the UK seem to originate from the same breed, peculiarly contemptuous of the general public and unable to engage in subtle or complex debate.

We can categorically state that we have had absolutely no pressure about anything on this thread from Salisbury's PR team. In fact, I'm not even sure he has a PR team, as such.

5madthings Wed 10-Apr-13 12:03:58

That one post told her story. Could edit out the 'not polite bit' leaving her story.

Tho tbh I thought it was fine as it was.

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 10-Apr-13 12:05:08

5madthings

That one post told her story. Could edit out the 'not polite bit' leaving her story.

Tho tbh I thought it was fine as it was.

No, the post telling her story has been reinstated.

5madthings Wed 10-Apr-13 12:07:31

Ah right thanks. Skimmed back and didn't see it sorry.

hawthornthree Wed 10-Apr-13 12:10:30

I am glad there was no pressure. Still, very odd judgement call from MNHQ. Glad you have reinstated the posts. Do wonder if you all ought to have a meeting about moderating threads.

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 10-Apr-13 12:14:21

hawthornthree

I am glad there was no pressure. Still, very odd judgement call from MNHQ. Glad you have reinstated the posts. Do wonder if you all ought to have a meeting about moderating threads.

We meet and talk all the time, hawthorntree. The last thing we should be doing is operating in a vacuum.

The team who respond to reports (we don't moderate, as such) are incredibly dedicated and hard-working and conscientious but we are human and we do sometimes make mistakes. What matters, I think, is that we hold our hands up when we make mistakes, explain ourselves and apologise. Which is exactly what we're doing here.

mayajan Wed 10-Apr-13 12:25:20

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Vaccines saying 'I tried to meet with you but you were too busy to see me' was not polite?

Seriously?

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 10-Apr-13 12:37:18

mayajan

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our <a target="_blank" href="/info/netiquette" rel="nofollow">Talk Guidelines</a>. Replies may also be deleted.

This one was a 'proper' spammer, by the way - in case you were wondering...

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 10-Apr-13 12:40:31

saintlyjimjams

Vaccines saying 'I tried to meet with you but you were too busy to see me' was not polite?

Seriously?

Actually, that's not what she said, jimjams. She accused Salisbury of ignoring sick children suffering in pain and sweeping stuff under the carpet.

hawthornthree Wed 10-Apr-13 12:43:36

Good to hear Helen, I hope when these mistakes do happen, that meetings are had and lessons are learned.

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 13:03:38

But the government did sweep the Urabe fiasco under the carpet - and Professor Salisbury was part of the committee who made the decision to introduce this known to be dangerous vaccine. The Lancet children and thousands like them have had their suffering ignored by the government and its officials.

For a long time the government ignored studies which clearly demonstrated that children with regressive autism often have very serious and painful intestinal issues. Indeed the whole notion was hotly contested although it now is pretty much accepted. Children have been denied proper medical care as a result of this.

Well, thank you MNHQ for listening and at least reinstating some of Vaccine's words.

I understand that we should be civil to guests but let's be frank - it does rather make any invitation of a political figure just an exercise in PR and provide a free platform for them if we are not allowed to be critical or state facts. (Which is why I didn't bother to join in the actual webchat - no point as there will be no real discussion. I understand that MN is a forum and not the internet equivalent of Question Time but as I said before, webchats like this one are all about flannely shite politics, and IMHO rather insulting to MNers intelligence.)

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 10-Apr-13 13:14:03

Beachcomber

But the government did sweep the Urabe fiasco under the carpet - and Professor Salisbury was part of the committee who made the decision to introduce this known to be dangerous vaccine. The Lancet children and thousands like them have had their suffering ignored by the government and its officials.

For a long time the government ignored studies which clearly demonstrated that children with regressive autism often have very serious and painful intestinal issues. Indeed the whole notion was hotly contested although it now is pretty much accepted. Children have been denied proper medical care as a result of this.

Well, thank you MNHQ for listening and at least reinstating some of Vaccine's words.

I understand that we should be civil to guests but let's be frank - it does rather make any invitation of a political figure just an exercise in PR and provide a free platform for them if we are not allowed to be critical or state facts. (Which is why I didn't bother to join in the actual webchat - no point as there will be no real discussion. I understand that MN is a forum and not the internet equivalent of Question Time but as I said before, webchats like this one are all about flannely shite politics, and IMHO rather insulting to MNers intelligence.)

We're sorry you feel like that, Beachcomber.

It was our decision to invited Prof Salisbury for a webchat, after we clocked many many threads voicing concern about the measles outbreaks and asking for advice and info.

To be clear, we have no problem with any MNer criticising a webchat guest's opinions or policies. We would never delete posts of that nature.

But we don't think it's right that folks we invite for a webchat should be bombarded with insulting personal slights (not that Prof Salisbury was, I hasten to add, but it has happened in the past).

We hope that every MN webchat is robust and challenging and thought-provoking and we do think they can be all of those things while also being generally civilised and respectful towards the guest we've invited along.

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 13:39:52

Thank you Helen for your reply.

I think as long as officials like Professor Salisbury refuse to answer questions on why Urabe strain MMR vaccines were introduced to the UK when they were known to be dangerous, there is little point in expecting anything other than waffle and parroting of (unjustified) government policy. The question was asked directly to him on this thread and his reply was evasive politcospeak.

The answer was that the Urabe strain vaccines were significantly cheaper and the government wanted to favour a British company over an American company. (Surely not that hard to spit out!)

I appreciate that MNHQ thought Professor Salisbury was an appropriate guest given the number of measles threads at the moment, but his job is to repeat the official line and the official line has been failing to reassure parents for decades now.

SimLondon Wed 10-Apr-13 13:43:58

Well I still can't see Vaccines first four posts? can anyone else?

OCRNL Wed 10-Apr-13 13:47:52

Bit of a latecomer to this thread but I still can't see Vaccines first 4 posts either.

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 10-Apr-13 13:50:06

SimLondon

Well I still can't see Vaccines first four posts? can anyone else?

Gah! Sorry, there were two we missed and have reinstated now.

The other two remain deleted: one for being uncivil, as we explained; the other for being a potentially libellous post, which, once it was reported to us, we had no choice but to delete.

sc1978 Wed 10-Apr-13 13:59:37

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

AmandinePoulain Wed 10-Apr-13 14:05:32

How good of them, cashing in on a health scare hmm

I really don't get it, why not just go and get a (free and licensed) MMR? Why are singles perceived to be safer?

WouldBeHarrietVane Wed 10-Apr-13 14:40:44

Amandine, if as happened to a friend, your child regressed immediately after being given a vaccine, you might connect the two events. Numerous parents in the UK think the mmr vaccine damaged their children.

Studies have shown mmr is save for the absolutely vast majority of children. What I am still not sure about is whether it is safe for mine, given our history of auto immune disease. No medical professional can tell me because they can't know about my individual child.

I believe the vaccine is safe for 99.9% of children at least, but I still worry that it may not be safe for mine.

I have compromised by vaccinating late - at 20 months - and with measles only. My hope based on very little knowledge is that this is lower risk - later when the children are better developed and only one jab not three for the body to contend with.

All guess work.

CoteDAzur Wed 10-Apr-13 14:46:10

I'm surprised to hear that MNHQ considers any poster who comes to MN to talk about a single subject a "spammer".

If so, you might like to learn that there is a spammer on Philosophy/Religion board who has been spouting nonsense trying to convince people that the universe is only 6000 years old. He has come to MN two days ago to post on that thread and he has only ever posted on that thread.

I am baffled that MNHQ is fine with someone like him but has lost no time in deleting the posts of a Lancet 12 mum, whose contribution to these threads would be invaluable.

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 14:54:29

I do wish that Vaccines would come back to the thread. I think there are lots of us who would be very interested and grateful to have a discussion with her. I understand why she probably doesn't want to though sad.

Vaccines - my heart goes out to you and your children for the way you have been treated by the British government and medical system. Thank you for continuing to speak out.

CoteDAzur Wed 10-Apr-13 14:58:40

I agree. Vaccines, please come back.

Hm - I can see why a Lancet mother would feel like that - never mind autism/MMR - it is now incredibly difficult for children with autism & gut problems to receive treatment for those. This is despite a consensus being published in a high impact journal (I can find the link if wanted) of how children with autism & gut problems should be treated. The NHS does not follow this best practice on the whole, particularly when the onset of the gut problems appear to be associated with a vaccination. It is not unusual for parents to travel abroad for treatment - God knows how they do it, we couldn't begin to think about travelling by plane with ds1.

Please note an association between gut problems & autism isn't particularly controversial these days - even if the nature of the trigger(s) remains so. Many of these children are sick (not like my robust & healthy can now eat anything ds1). If the onset of their symptoms coincides with a vaccination then the nature of the development of their condition makes it even harder for them to seek treatment. That politics should obstruct the treatment of sick children in pain is an utter disgrace & it's a shame that mumsnet don't appear to recognise this. Remember these are children who often cannot clearly indicate that they are in pain. Instead they self injure or scream.

This may just be a silly little spat to you MNHQ but I'm not sure I can stay here. Thank you for finally reinstating the majority of vaccines posts. Thank you for taking the time to respond & to explain it all boils down to you being a bit incompetent (not to be rude - any other explanation & I'd be gone already). I'm giving myself 24 hours to think about it & talk to a few people I trust. I have loved mumsnet, it gave ds1 a voice for starters -at least a mumsnetter did - I do think it's a good medium to talk about life with a severely autistic child as well, (something you have expressed a desire for me to do) but ultimately I have to be able look other mothers who are in a similar situation to me in the eye - that is more important to me than 'education' & there's lots about the last 24 hours that leaves me feeling very uncomfortable & I'm not sure I can be associated with it.

CoteDAzur Wed 10-Apr-13 15:16:14

Please stay jimjams sad

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 15:25:25

Saintlyjimjams, MN would be a much much poorer place without you.

But I understand and agree with everything you say in your post.

When the chips are down and all that. sad

AmandinePoulain Wed 10-Apr-13 15:28:24

Thanks wouldbe, I know what puts people off the MMR, I just wonder why the single jab is perceived to be safer, since it contains the same virus and a lot of non vaccers give the measles virus in the gut explanation for autism as a reason for not giving the MMR. I think I'm just a bit sensitive about it all at the moment as the mother of an 8mo living in the middle of an outbreak, I had to put her through the trauma of an extra jab in the hope that it'll give her some protection sad

There may be a middle way. Will talk to DH (straightest person I know) tonight & MNHQ. It may just be that I decline to do something extra they have requested (& I agreed to last week). It's being associated with the site that I find difficult. Will have a think.

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 15:49:55

AmandinePoulain it is due to the MMR vaccine being a triple vaccine and the potential for viral interaction and synergy, particularly in a child who has recently had a natural viral infection.

Which is something the government pooh-poohs but which is perfectly scientifically plausible. For example with natural infection measles can be much more serious when it infects a child in the aftermath of chicken pox infection.

There are combined MMR + chicken pox vaccines and they have higher rates of adverse events than the MMR. This is proof that combined vaccines behave differently to well spaced singles and that a heavier and more complex the viral load is not without significance.

I don't know why the British government continues to pretend that combined vaccines do not carry different risks to well spaced singles. It is starting to make them look totally untrustworthy considering the American experience with MMRV.

WouldBeHarrietVane Wed 10-Apr-13 15:53:04

Amandine, if I lived in Swansea I would definitely give my 8 month old the measles jab too.

Saintly please don't go - you are always such a lovely voice on here.

WouldBeHarrietVane Wed 10-Apr-13 15:55:32

Beachcomber I wish I'd known that about recent viruses. My 20 month old has had stacks of viruses recently and in a gap of a week when he was well in between those I jabbed him with measles sad luckily not c pox that he had.

Will definitely be more careful in future with natural viruses and jabbing.

SimLondon Wed 10-Apr-13 15:56:21

re the single jab - i believe that its not the jab itself that is perceved to be safer, more that its less of a hit for the immune system to deal with in one go - google Dr Natasha Campbell Mcbrides explanation on why she thinks that autism or something similar can be triggered in children with vulnerable immune systems.

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 15:59:04

The rate of convulsions with MMRV was double that of MMR if I remember correctly. This prompted the CDC to stop recommending the MMRV over the MMR. Which was something I suppose, but it should also have prompted very close examination of the viral interaction and synergy in the MMR.

It is just ridiculous for governments to admit on one hand that viral interaction happens with a four in one vaccine but continue to claim that it doesn't (ever ever) in a three in one hmm

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 16:09:23

WouldBeHarrietVane it is up to doctors to be careful about checking a child is in good health before they vaccinate them. Don't feel bad, it is great that you went for the single.

My doctor happily jabbed my underweight, born prematurely baby who was ill at the time with we didn't know what. I asked him if it was really a good idea or if we should wait until we knew what was wrong with her but he assured me that it was more important that she have her vaccines and gave her DTP and Hep B. She had an averse reaction to that first jab and to the two others that I was stupid enough to let her have and has suffered ill health ever since.

I have spent lonely nights blaming myself in the past but try not to do that any more. I blame the doctor and those who are involved in the current irresponsible vaccine schedule.

hawthornthree Wed 10-Apr-13 16:14:10

Amandine I completely understand your concern.

Jimjams sad

DameSaggarmakersbottomknocker Wed 10-Apr-13 17:05:51

MNHQ - it's pretty ironic when a thread giving information to parents about immunisation results in the loss to the site of the one person from whom many of us have learned most about the subject. If she Saintly decides not to stay MN as a whole and vaccination debate in particular will be the poorer for her loss.

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 19:31:31

I second what DameSaggarmakersbottomknocker says.

Saintlyjimjams is an invaluable poster, and if I may say so has more to offer this site than the likes of Professor Salisbury, who is after all a politician.

And I would like to repeat my interest in a discussion thread with poster Vaccines, and indeed any other parents who are involved in the MMR medical situation. We are a parenting website after all.

This thread has thoroughly depressed me. Saintlyjimjams and Vaccines - I hope you are ok.

AmandinePoulain Wed 10-Apr-13 20:27:01

Beach I wouldn't describe him as a politician - he works for the Dept of Health but that doesn't mean he's a member of a political party; nor is he elected confused. I think that his opinion is very valuable, and valid at the present time. I don't mean to insult anyone but I would trust his opinion far more than an unqualified anonymous forum poster to be honest; however that doesn't mean that I think that other poster's views are invalid - but then that's the nature of debate.

WouldBeHarrietVane Wed 10-Apr-13 20:30:42

Amandine, do you think dissenting voices rise to the top of government departments? Look what happened to the drugs czar when he voiced his own opinions.

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 20:41:09

AmandinePoulain, of course Professor Salisbury is a politician.

The Department of Health is not some airy fairy organisation with a deep desire to look after our babies. Unfortunately.

The DOH is worth megabucks.

If Professor Salisbury only had our children's interest at heart, why did he contribute to the introduction of the Urabe strain MMR vaccines to the UK? Vaccines which had been proven to be unsafe in Canada? Vaccines which were withdrawn (eventually) in the UK once they were seen to have been as dangerous for UK children as they were for Canadian children?

You don't have to be an MP to be a politician.

I am being very polite about Professor Salisbury when I refer to him as a politician BTW.

bruffin Wed 10-Apr-13 21:11:25

Can we please stop with this conspiracy nonsense about the Urabe strain

It was used because it was more effective than the jerrilynn strain. There is a far greater risk of encephylitis from mumps itself as well as deafness.
The risk had to be weighed up with more children catching mumps and open to the complications or less children catching mumps and maybe a slightly higher risk of asceptic meningitis which normally does not have lasting side effects and a slightly higher risk of febrile convulsions which are again harmless (my family has gefs+ for at least 4 generations so i do know a lot about them) . Prior to immunization mumps was the leading cause of deafness and is also linked to diabetes type 1.
Urabe is still used in many countries around the world and many clinics supplying single vaccines in the past used the Urabe strain.

WouldBeHarrietVane Wed 10-Apr-13 21:18:47

I believe the DoH and of course DS really want what is best for children.

There is absolutely no real debate that vaccines damage some children and that they are a tiny minority of all children vaccinated.

Some of us therefore have children who could be hurt by vaccines, but instead of engaging honestly with these fears, due to the good of the many, governments and civil servants and their advisers simply repeat the simple mantra that everyone must vaccinate.

I think their fear is that a truthful nuanced debate would lead to low vaccination and more children dying as herd immunity would be compromised.

I understand their dilemma but I really wish we could have more honesty.

My father was until he recently retired a research scientist in a big mainstream company which amongst other things produces pharmaceutical products. He fully supports my decision not to vaccinate my DC with mmr at 13 months.

CatherinaJTV Wed 10-Apr-13 21:18:57

I second what DameSaggarmakersbottomknocker says.

I third it - as much as we "fought" on the vaccines board, I very much value saintly's input and hope she will stay!

bruffin Wed 10-Apr-13 21:21:12

[[ http://www.stanford.edu/~siegelr/mathakia.html info on Urabe strain compared to jeryllyn and rubini]]

bruffin Wed 10-Apr-13 21:24:21
AmandinePoulain Wed 10-Apr-13 21:39:24

Thanks for that link bruffin.

The conspiracy theories surrounding vaccines are what usually puts me off debates like this. I just cannot believe that a highly qualified paediatrician and immunologist would knowingly put millions of children at risk of significant harm just to save face confused. I've no doubt that there are children that have suffered adverse effects from vaccination but the potential for harm is surely far greater from the diseases that we are protecting our children from, which is why both of my children are fully vaccinated.

WouldBeHarrietVane Wed 10-Apr-13 21:47:28

Amandine I don't think any medical professional would deliberately endanger children. I am sure DS is an incredibly genuine person who has dedicated his professional life to trying to look after others.

As a fairly sensible person the conspiracy theorising really puts me off too.

However, I just want a nuanced debate which takes some account of the very rare vaccine damage. From previous posts by saintly on other threads I understood (please correct me if I am wrong, Saintly), that immunologists have acknowledged certain groups of children are more vulnerable to reactions. I want to know where i can find out more about which groups as I think my DS may fall into one / more by virtue of my medical history.

hawthornthree Wed 10-Apr-13 22:04:23

I don't doubt for a moment that DS believes he is doing the right thing ethically, and of course, without vaccination there would undoubtedly be more deaths from measles and other vaccination preventable illnesses. Public health have made that decision - that the benefit from vaccinations, from a public heath point of view, vastly outweighs any theoretical risks that might affect a very small number of children, far smaller than would be affected if there was a nationwide measles epidemic.

However, this very small number of children, who may be susceptible to some sort of vaccination issue, should not be ignored, and neither should there parents. To do so, even with the goal of protecting other children through vaccination coverage, is unethical, and so is stifling any future research that might reveal more about these issues.

hawthornthree Wed 10-Apr-13 22:04:58

public health officials have made that decision I mean.

hawthornthree Wed 10-Apr-13 22:05:40

their parents <goes to bed>

slatternlymother Thu 11-Apr-13 08:10:28

Well said wouldbe we are in the same boat ourselves with DS. I need unbiased information which presents the facts to me.

I've raised my concerns with the doctors, who just shrugged them off and tied themselves up in knots; in the same breath we needed to source a difference vaccine for DS because he is allergic to eggs, then next thing it's 'oh no it's actually dpt we need to worry about, just jab him with mmr, he'll be fine'. It frightened me they didn't appear to have their facts straight and I'm too afraid to go back and give him multiple jabs (family history as well). Instead, I'll give him singular vaccines at my own expense.

They wouldn't even give him the jabs I was concerned about (for damn good reasons) in hospital, so they could monitor his reaction for a few hours after.

I just felt they didn't take me, or my valid concerns seriously at all. So I can't take the NHS seriously.

slatternlymother Thu 11-Apr-13 08:12:06

Can't take the NHS seriously in this respect, I might add. I just don't think they have the time or resources and in some cases, experience, to help the minority out with vaccines.

NewMumOnline Thu 11-Apr-13 11:27:51

Just dropping in to say that I have recently written about this subject on my blog after having exchanged tweets with other bloggers who are in Wales.
www.newmumonline.co.uk/2013/04/the-measles-epidemic-alternative-view.html
Hope you don't mind me linking to my post

CatherinaJTV Thu 11-Apr-13 13:58:20

and here as well, new mum:

Germany uses the MMR and has done so since 1977. MMR (usually Priorix) is given twice before the second birthday. Vaccination morale is generally high and outbreaks occur in pockets of vaccine refusers, like Steiner schools. In Germany (like anywhere in the developed world), the complication rate is the same between natcheral kids and the unsupplemented omnivores. You can find whatever reason you want for not using the MMR, but please don't make justifications up by cherry picking single sentences from 30 year old references.

NewMumOnline Sat 13-Apr-13 23:22:19

CatherinaJTV every Steiner parent I have ever met gets meat from farm sources, where they can trust its quality. To disrespectively assume they are all vegetarians, is to show how little you know.
I apologise if that ONE reference in my post was incorrect, but I stand by the rest of the content.
Liska x

Given that there is a link between level of parental education and vaccine refusal, I think it would be fair to assume that any private school (where parents are likely to have higher education levels than the local sink-comprehensive) will have a lower vaccination rate.

Steiner Schools put no pressure on parents regarding vaccination - they leave it to the parents to decide what is best for their child.

jenna748 Mon 15-Apr-13 12:41:43

My son is 5, I spent years researching the MMR and decided that the DOH wouldn't pay vaccine damage for a vaccine that is safe. over 2000 parents are trying to get compensation, also the damage has to be 60% disablement before they will pay out. so how many more have actually tried and failed?

so they want us to play a lottery with our childs lives? risk measils or risk MMR side effects.

This is not right, they need to give parents a choice of single vaccines.

I won't be giving him the MMR. I hope he doesn't catch measils, but if he does that his own immune system can fight it.

Its in the telegraph just today that some children were left deaf.

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9521728/Rogue-strain-of-MMR-vaccine-caused-deafness.html

DuelingFanjo Mon 15-Apr-13 13:18:48

vaccines are not compulsory are they? I think it's entirely up to the individual (or parent) if they vaccinate or not.

My son has had the first MMR and is not due to have his booster for another year so i guess he is at risk now until (if) he gets the booster? But then he could be at risk anyway because it's not effective?

One thing I do worry about is mumps because my son has only one testicle so I wouldn't want to compromise his fertility further. yet from what I read in this chat the Mumps vaccine is not really that good anyway?

sophable Sat 27-Apr-13 15:04:52

This thread was SO predictable. So sad that the important questions weren't engaged with and that dissent stomped on, even if some reinstated later. Unbelievably frustrating.

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