WEBCHAT GUIDELINES 1. One question per member plus one follow-up once you've had a response. 2. Keep your question brief 3. Don't moan if your question doesn't get answered. 4. Do be civil/polite. See full guidelines here.

Budget 2012 explained: Live webchat with Mark Dampier, Head of Research at Hargreaves Lansdown, Wednesday 21 March 12.30-2pm

(289 Posts)
AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 19-Mar-12 16:28:20

It's Budget day on Wednesday. What will happen to the 50p tax rate? Will we see a mansion tax? What about child benefit?

It could be a red letter day for your family finances. We are delighted to welcome Mark Dampier to Mumsnet for a live budget webchat. Mark is head of research at Hargreaves Lansdown, the independent financial adviser, and an all-round financial guru. He will be translating the Chancellor's statements as he makes them, and finding time to answer your comments.

Mark will be busy keeping an eye on Osborne, so please don't post questions about your own family finances here (we've got plans for a special Q&A about this later, see below). Do join us here at 12.30, when the fun begins.

Coming up: We've set up a Q&A with a panel of experts to take questions on your family finances after the Chancellor sits down.

Next week, Mumsnet favourite Alvin Hall will be in on Thursday 29 March for a live webchat on savings and investments.

It's all about the Money at Mumsnet HQ.....

SweetTheSting Mon 19-Mar-12 18:16:52

Excellent choice! Unfortunately I will be at a conference but will check the thread afterwards.

SophieNeveu Mon 19-Mar-12 20:33:02

marking my place.

gazzalw Mon 19-Mar-12 20:57:24

We are one of those families threatened with losing child benefit even though I am only just over the threshold and DW is a SAHM. We are tremendously worried that we are going to lose it (we would really struggle without it) and how on earth can Mr Osborne justify doing so for London-based families were life is so much more expensive to start with. If we don't get the result we deserve (i.e. single income families in higher tax bracket getting a nod to fact that their income potentially doesn't match two-income families) are there any ways we can soften the blow or avoid losing our child benefit.

Personally feel that Mr Osborne could look at capping CB at two children (and no more) or just not for any families on long-term benefits who choose to have more than two children!

SophieNeveu Mon 19-Mar-12 21:01:08

I am worried about the tax children will be charged by the government for collecting minimum levels of their child support, and what the criterea of domestic abuse is?

SanctiMoanyArse Tue 20-Mar-12 09:51:00

Gazza there are so many pitfalls there though- what about families who have their children THEN end up unemployed from redundancy, sickness, disability? That can happen to anyone, especially if someone is struggling to cope.

My question: My husband will be trying to make a go of his business this year and his target is X hours at minimum wage (I am a carer, although I am starting a business it will not be profitable this year, should be next). Will the raise in Minimum Wage affect our entitlement to WTC as whilst the expected income is over MW in the next year it does not quite meet the extra; it is possible we could meet this by reducing stock levels but we do not know if we have to call HMRC and up our expected income or if leaving that until we have a fuller picture later in the year is sufficient. The aim is to get the business to make a MW level for a 40 hour week in the 2013 - 2014 tax year. Maintaining a high level of stock is essential to meet specific requests, tehre is a chance reducing stock levels will reduce overall performance.

I hope you understand what I mean, not sure I phrased it well, sorry.

Why is nobody talking about what will happen to the Home responsibilities protection aspect of Child Benefit? What will happen to the future pensions of sahps whose partners are higher rate tax payers?

Elabella1401 Tue 20-Mar-12 13:47:14

Those of us who live in rural areas with little or no access to reliable public transport are paying disproportionately in terms of fuel duty. Our village shop and post office have closed and they will be followed very shortly by our primary school. Three more facts that will force me into the car whilst simultaneously chipping away at my quality of life. Will the Chancellor be offering people like me anything to compensate....and NO I don't mean bloody Wind Turbines!

Greeata Tue 20-Mar-12 13:49:57

Oh I love Alvin.

My guess is that I'm not going to be better off after Wednesday.

Lexilicious Tue 20-Mar-12 14:13:19

Would love an increase to the amount of salary sacrifice I can put away to Childcare Vouchers, but not really expecting it. Looking out for fuel duty, stamp duty and definitely minimum booze pricing (as I met someone in the know a couple of weeks ago who tipped that one).

And of course I will be listening out on public sector pay and conditions. I am a central govt civil servant in the South East; because my department was operating a three year pay deal we still got a pay rise in the first year of the pay freeze, so our freeze will go on a year longer than everyone else IYSWIM.

champagnesupernova Tue 20-Mar-12 17:57:39

Marking place

scrappydappydoo Tue 20-Mar-12 19:45:10

Was just coming on to ask the same question as Northernlurker - so attaching myself onto her post smile

motherwifeme Wed 21-Mar-12 07:57:53

Unfortunately I'll be having to check in on this after the event as am off to LBC radio, with my mum hat firmly on, to join in similar discussion with James Whale and a room full of people from different backgrounds to discuss. Look forward to seeing what happens here to compare views.

noddyholder Wed 21-Mar-12 10:34:30

The budget deficit doubled in Feb shock so I wouldn't expect any give aways

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 12:08:31

After childcare costs, I am expecting my net residual salary to drop by £2800, as we'll probably be losing child benefit. That constitutes 50% of my income.

Just thought I'd make the point.

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:09:48

test

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 12:13:16

Here is my suggestion for an alternative budget and Big Society.

Set up a national system of nurseries for over 2's, free at the point of use, to correspond with the needs of working parents (like in the war). Men will be required to do all drop offs and pick ups.

Introduce free transport to school for all children. Healthy pensioners under 70 will be conscripted to drive everything.

Introduce free school meals for all children, and milk and vitamins, and fruit and veg.

Introduce free prescriptions and dental treatment for anyone who has ever given birth, for the rest of their lives.

Sack every single bloke from the cabinet immediately and build an all-female cabinet with representative women from all age groups. but we can have a token male Minister for Men.

Take all men off boards, apart from a few token ones.

Raise tax to 70% to pay for all this, because actually most women would be better off, paradoxically.

Then proffer a small amount of money, say £20.30 a week for the first child and £13.40 for second and subsequent children, to the men, so they had a little bit of money to call their own, for family use. Oh, and then take it away if the mother earned over £40k.

Let's see what's actually announced, shall we?

hellokittyrules Wed 21-Mar-12 12:29:19

nearly time

Sariska Wed 21-Mar-12 12:29:33

Also attaching myself to NorthernLurkers question about what will happen about protecting the entitlement to a state pension of stay at home parents who lose their child benefit.

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 12:30:20

We're delighted to welcome Mark Dampier to Mumsnet to help us decode the budget. The Chancellor is just about to stand up and we'll be off.....

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:33:04

look out for moves on personal allowance £1000 increase is worth £200pa

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:34:18

but likely to be overall tax neutral,why?govt has no money!

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 12:34:35

<wets pants with excitement, £200 pa equates to only losing 43% of my total residual income after tax and childcare, rather than 50%>

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 12:35:11

I agree, Mark. Why on earth just move the deck chairs on the Titanic?

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 12:35:31

The Chancellor claims that this will be a Budget for working families; let's wait and see what concrete measures he announces!

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 12:36:14

<snorts sarcastically>
<folds arms>

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:39:22

unemployment forecast to peak this year, heroic assumption in my view.

Lexilicious Wed 21-Mar-12 12:41:02

fiscally neutral over 5 years assuming those forecasts are right - and they are what? pessimistic or optimistic? or average?

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:42:04

still borrowing huge sums, and Royal Mail is NO windfall we and our children will be paying for it for years to come.

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 12:43:06

The OBR's growth forecast has risen to 0.8 per cent. A rise, true, but the UK economy still looks stagnant...

Lexilicious Wed 21-Mar-12 12:43:08

OOOOH! fuckity fuck - rolling state pension age review!!

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:43:25

would be surprised to see inflation below 2% by end of year with petrol alone going up almost by the day

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:44:18

AntoniaMumsnet

The OBR's growth forecast has risen to 0.8 per cent. A rise, true, but the UK economy still looks stagnant...

need at least 2%GDP to get unemployment down

Haziedoll Wed 21-Mar-12 12:44:44

I can't actually watch it because it makes me feel sick with nerves. Any announcements to do with cb and working families please post on here for me.

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:45:06

interest rates are low cos our position is so bad

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:46:54

Brown sold half our gold at $250oz

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 12:47:02

Hazie, I am terrified too which is why it's manifested as anger. I am choking back tears.

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 12:47:15

Haziedoll

I can't actually watch it because it makes me feel sick with nerves. Any announcements to do with cb and working families please post on here for me.

Will do, Haziedoll.....

Lexilicious Wed 21-Mar-12 12:47:50

He's not great at diction, is he.

hellokittyrules Wed 21-Mar-12 12:48:55

agree i am waiting for cb news too so nervous they had better not leave it till the end!!

noddyholder Wed 21-Mar-12 12:48:57

Poor old clegg he can't react at all

Doobydoo Wed 21-Mar-12 12:49:09

Thought he said one of the banks was Voldemort!
So retire at approx 80!
Still can't believe they going down the buy property route

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 12:49:15

I am supposed to be heading off to a lunch which will be full of baby boomers moaning about their pensions and so on. It will all I can do not to attack someone with a vol au vent, really, if they start banging on like they do usually.

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:50:04

longevity linked state pension age confirmed

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 12:50:06

They are so deliberately avoiding smiling and saying "I won that bit", aren't they???

Haziedoll Wed 21-Mar-12 12:50:43

Thanks. smile

Doobydoo Wed 21-Mar-12 12:51:00

Can't see 'em listening to Rad.Glad I can't see them tbh

noddyholder Wed 21-Mar-12 12:51:32

Thatcher light imo bloody right to buy is and was a disgrace.Encouraging people to get 95% mortgages for new builds which are notoriously risky is irresponsible.

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:51:38

BoffinMum

I am supposed to be heading off to a lunch which will be full of baby boomers moaning about their pensions and so on. It will all I can do not to attack someone with a vol au vent, really, if they start banging on like they do usually.

sorry I am a baby boomer!

Swed Wed 21-Mar-12 12:51:50

From the budget: 2012 inflation forecast is 2.8% and down to 1.9% for next year and then 2% thereafter

As a saver, how do I protect my savings aganist inflation when interest rates are so low? I'm already fully invested in a (Hargreaves Landsdown grin)equities ISA, but what else can I do if I may need access to my savings in next 5 years, say?

Doobydoo Wed 21-Mar-12 12:52:06

Totally agree Noddy.

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 12:52:24

- A white paper on the growing cost of social care for the elderly
- A rolling review of state pension age
- An extra £100 million for armed forces housing, and doubling of council tax relief for families of serving armed forced personnel

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:52:49

noddyholder

Thatcher light imo bloody right to buy is and was a disgrace.Encouraging people to get 95% mortgages for new builds which are notoriously risky is irresponsible.

quite agree, housing poor idea at moment for 1st timers

Doobydoo Wed 21-Mar-12 12:53:59

Think we all know it's the properties their builder mates can't shift

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:55:24

low mortgage rates? but still going up!

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:56:29

renewable energy stuff, but lights still likely to go out unless we have real power stations

Thank god I'm so worried about Wallace and gromit it keeps me up at night

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 12:57:23

at least helping North Sea producers after taxing them so much last time.

Lexilicious Wed 21-Mar-12 12:57:35

Wallace and Gromit? Is that a reference to the cartoon depiction of Ed Miliband?

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 12:57:44

Swed

From the budget: 2012 inflation forecast is 2.8% and down to 1.9% for next year and then 2% thereafter

As a saver, how do I protect my savings aganist inflation when interest rates are so low? I'm already fully invested in a (Hargreaves Landsdown grin)equities ISA, but what else can I do if I may need access to my savings in next 5 years, say?

Hi Swed,
We'll be setting up a Q&A for questions about individual finances as soon as the Chancellor sits down...
Do post this question on that!

So making tge Olympic visitors happy in keeping touch with home?

Twit Wed 21-Mar-12 12:59:35

WTAF? Are they really joking about Wallace & Grommit? While I'm sat here worrying about feeding my kids?

I feel a bit sick. sad

Swed Wed 21-Mar-12 13:00:11

Antonia - grin Sorry. That was a bit me me me. grin

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 13:01:23

- A fund for faster broadband across the UK
- A tax credit scheme for video games and high end television companies
- Reduction in red tape for businesses seeking planning permission
- Confirmation of relaxation of Sunday trading over Olympic period

Twit Wed 21-Mar-12 13:01:53

ooh let's get kids into debt as soon as possible. Won't affect their kids though will it?

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:02:15

much talk about local pay

Should I renew my car tax online now before he talks about it?

moomoo1967 Wed 21-Mar-12 13:02:34

I'm waiting to see how it will affect a single parent working part time as I am being interviewed by The Telegraph after the budget sad

noddyholder Wed 21-Mar-12 13:07:54

The tax statement is just another divisive strategy to get people frothing about 'scroungers' Bollocks!

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:08:01

BoffinMum

I agree, Mark. Why on earth just move the deck chairs on the Titanic?

its all politics!!

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:09:08

LovesBeingWearingSkinnyJeans

Should I renew my car tax online now before he talks about it?

changes dont normally start that soon

Swed Wed 21-Mar-12 13:09:30

The ref to Wallace and Grommit was a joke about Ed Miliband's resemblance. Keeping them right where they are as in, in oppositioin. It was a good joke.

Tories are much better than Labour at making jokes.

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 13:10:13

- Confirmation of new single tier pension for future pesnioners set at £140
- Basic state pension to rise by £5.30 from April
- 20 million tazpayers to get a simple tax statement

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:10:47

Corporation tax to fall by another 1% straight away to 24%

mummylouise Wed 21-Mar-12 13:11:18

Swed - Torries are much better at writting jokes too - they wrote this Budget!!

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 13:11:32

- Corporation tax cut by 1% immediately and down to 22% by 2014

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:11:37

flat rate pension of £140

DID HE JUST CUT CORPORATION TAX????

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:13:03

no change in alcohol duty

TheCunningStunt Wed 21-Mar-12 13:13:14

Ooh this is a good thread as I just had to turn over the budget for CBeebies. Humph.

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 13:13:21

QueenOfAllBiscuitsandMuffins

DID HE JUST CUT CORPORATION TAX????

He did, QueenofALBiscuitsandMuffins. by 1% immediately and down to 22% by 2014, with some indication he wants it to fall further....

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:13:29

QueenOfAllBiscuitsandMuffins

DID HE JUST CUT CORPORATION TAX????

yes

Lexilicious Wed 21-Mar-12 13:13:44

There's a result for mums - no change to the wine tax.

TheCunningStunt Wed 21-Mar-12 13:13:50

Have they mentioned fuel tax yet?? And why they gov take such a huge chunk of it??

I can't believe he's cutting corporation tax!

Swed Wed 21-Mar-12 13:14:28

Ha at trying to emulate the private sector involvement in the water industry. Not so much the private sector involvement in the railways?

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:14:36

fuel duty changes, but seemingly no plan to scrap rise in August

Lexilicious Wed 21-Mar-12 13:14:58

How are small shops going to implement higher tobacco taxes by 6pm?

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 13:15:09

The vice taxes...
37p a pack on cigarettes from 6pm tonight
0p on alcohol.

What was thE plan for fuel duty?

hellokittyrules Wed 21-Mar-12 13:15:57

come on just need child benefits

X-post mark. That's rubbish!

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:16:08

tax evasion points coming up

TheCunningStunt Wed 21-Mar-12 13:16:23

Not looking forward to child benefit

Swed Wed 21-Mar-12 13:17:43

LOL at bank levy to ensure banks don't benefit from cut in corp tax.

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:18:01

stamp duty avoidance, increasing tax on corporates doing this

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 13:18:51

- "Agressive tax avoidance is morally repugnant" says Osborne; more staff allocated to tackle tack avoidance and evasion
- Confirmation of crack down on evasion of stamp duty. Increasing stamp duty on property over £2million bought by corporates to 15 per cent. Capital Gains tax on properties held by overseas companies.

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:19:01

new stamp duty on property worth £2m of 7%

caramelwaffle Wed 21-Mar-12 13:19:53

Ok.

So I'm turning on the T.V. <deep breath>

I don't understand the difference between the 15% stamp duty thing and 7% duty thing for properties over £2m, but I don't think it's something that I will ever encounter anyway. *goes to check lottery numbers.

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:20:10

capping tax reliefs but dont as yet understand it?

Twit Wed 21-Mar-12 13:21:18

Oh that's alright then Swed as long as it was a good in-joke. hmm

BOMtobewild Wed 21-Mar-12 13:22:08

Glad they're in the mood for jokes

caramelwaffle Wed 21-Mar-12 13:22:10

50% tax rate. A lot of waffle for him about to say "cutting it" (?)

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:22:33

capping of tax reliefs look like a huge complication

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:23:01

45% tax rate, instead of 50%

caramelwaffle Wed 21-Mar-12 13:23:04

Down from 50p to 45p <no surprise>

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:23:32

believes he will get 5x money from rich.

Lexilicious Wed 21-Mar-12 13:23:38

Lindsay Hoyle's enjoying his moment, I see.

BOMtobewild Wed 21-Mar-12 13:23:47

Yawn - what about CBs?!

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:24:04

caramelwaffle

Down from 50p to 45p <no surprise>

so much leaked in advance

Gigondas Wed 21-Mar-12 13:24:37

Now Bom I think

Codandchops Wed 21-Mar-12 13:24:37

What's with all the braying? Wish they would stop all the posturing and let him get on with it.

CB here we go..,,,

BOMtobewild Wed 21-Mar-12 13:24:38

In case we didn't know how many "5" is hmm

"believes he will get 5x money from rich."

I didn't understand how?

caramelwaffle Wed 21-Mar-12 13:24:48

[child benefit] .....

Lexilicious Wed 21-Mar-12 13:25:15

Mark, I reckon that capped tax relief thing was that you can squirrel away no more than 25% of your income across all tax reliefs. That'll provide some interesting work for accountants.

Oh here we go, Child Benefit

hellokittyrules Wed 21-Mar-12 13:25:19

child benefits childbenefits

Oh dear

Child benefit OMG, how much is that going to COST to administer?

BOMtobewild Wed 21-Mar-12 13:26:00

per household or individual with in the house????!!!!

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:26:03

child benefit, avoid cliff edge, gradual withdraw for those over £50,000

Lexilicious Wed 21-Mar-12 13:26:47

Huh?

Codandchops Wed 21-Mar-12 13:26:47

Does this remove the anomaly or not?

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:26:49

Lexilicious

Mark, I reckon that capped tax relief thing was that you can squirrel away no more than 25% of your income across all tax reliefs. That'll provide some interesting work for accountants.

Oh here we go, Child Benefit

hardly simple is it!!

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 13:27:02

Child benefit: Stands by the principle of his child benefit reforms.
But
Instead of withdrawing all at once - it will only be withdrawn where someone earns over £50,000 and the witdrawal will be gradual. So only those with an earner of £60,000 will lose all their CB.

Thetokengirl Wed 21-Mar-12 13:27:06

Tell me more about CB, please?

BOMtobewild Wed 21-Mar-12 13:27:14

As queen of biscuits says - by the time theyve administeredthat they will have eaten all the money up shock

Wait a minute doesn't that mean now that 2 members earning £98,000 will still get CB?

hellokittyrules Wed 21-Mar-12 13:27:51

yes yes yes to £50000 cut off

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:28:10

personal allowance going up big increase to £1100

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:28:32

worth £220pa

mirandabee Wed 21-Mar-12 13:28:32

it doesn't seem to remove the anomoly of two earners just under the threshold.

caramelwaffle Wed 21-Mar-12 13:28:41

"Set the goal of raising the personal allowance..." Not a firm commitment..

£8105 this year (April)

£9205 next year

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:28:59

£9205 from April 2013

So what's tgat £12/3 per month from next April..... I'll get my thinking cap on then won't want to waste it.

lurkingmurking Wed 21-Mar-12 13:29:25

Family income or individual??? So a couple on £98k would still get it? ARGH!

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 13:29:43

Thetokengirl

Tell me more about CB, please?

So instead of £42,000 as the threshold for CB loss it will be £50,000. Above £50,000, you will lose 1% of CB for every £100 earned. By the time you earn £60,000 you'll get nothing.
Sounds tricky to adminster...

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:29:46

now just winding up

Basically a single person on £50,000 will get it lowered if they £100 over £50,000 or lose it at £60,000 but a couple on 90,000 will still get it i thinkconfused

Lexilicious Wed 21-Mar-12 13:29:53

Who is that texting behind him????

Absolutely Miranda, all they've achieved is to reduce the complaints about how unfair it is as a lot of people will feel relieved.

caramelwaffle Wed 21-Mar-12 13:30:36

Couples - yes.
Lone parents - no.
One working parent - no.

sweetkitty Wed 21-Mar-12 13:30:37

Child benefit, did he say that's household income or just one persons? Does that mean two people can still earn over 80k and get CB?

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:30:43

child benefit changes will be hard to administer.

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 13:30:48

pumpkinsweetie

Basically a single person on £50,000 will get it lowered if they £100 over £50,000 or lose it at £60,000 but a couple on 90,000 will still get it i thinkconfused

It looks like it. We'll track down the Budget documents and double check...

Even though £60,000 is a hefty wage for a single person- i also think he's picking on single parents by doing this which is wrong!!! Arrrrrggghh

noddyholder Wed 21-Mar-12 13:31:24

I think everyone who works should pay some tax. Not in favour of no tax at all. There should be a feeling of contribution no matter how low.

mirandabee Wed 21-Mar-12 13:31:29

with CB, did they address the issue of HRP?

caramelwaffle Wed 21-Mar-12 13:31:33

How does this all tie in with the Universal Credits from next year...?

notenoughsocks Wed 21-Mar-12 13:31:48

Will put this question here too because I really would like to know:

If it is going to affect as few families as he says then surely it is not that much of an expensive measure.
Why do it at all, then? Especially given the increased admin costs. Is it just moving a universal benefit to a means tested one for the principle of the thing?

I think the child benefit thing has just got worse - making it MORE complex. And what about HRP???

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:32:30

ohyouBadBadkitten

Absolutely Miranda, all they've achieved is to reduce the complaints about how unfair it is as a lot of people will feel relieved.

still remains a mess just less of one!

Does anyone know whats happening with Tax Credits for people earning between 12,000& 24k

mirandabee Wed 21-Mar-12 13:32:46

agree, notenough

IwishIwasmoreorganised Wed 21-Mar-12 13:33:37

Grrrr. They really have missed the point about the unfairness of the CB reforms haven't they?!

BOMtobewild Wed 21-Mar-12 13:34:23

lexilicious playing angry birds I reckon...

sweetkitty Wed 21-Mar-12 13:34:38

Doesn't address number of children either so you could have house one with two people working and earning 80K still getting CB, house two one person earning £60,001 with 6 DC getting nothing!

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:34:41

notenoughsocks

Will put this question here too because I really would like to know:

If it is going to affect as few families as he says then surely it is not that much of an expensive measure.
Why do it at all, then? Especially given the increased admin costs. Is it just moving a universal benefit to a means tested one for the principle of the thing? you are right but budgets much to do with politics not common sense

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 13:35:42

The personal allowance will increase by £1,100 in 2013-14 to £9205

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:36:10

IwishIwasmoreorganised

Grrrr. They really have missed the point about the unfairness of the CB reforms haven't they?!

its near impossible to do it fairly, shows you should be more careful when you first hand out benefits.

blue22 Wed 21-Mar-12 13:36:11

A bit sad about CB as the main earner in our family and I'm on 50k. Also have a question - I'm due with 2nd child in July. I'll go down to statuatory maternity pay after 3 months and live off savings for up to a year to maximise time with DC. Will I still be regarded as a 'high tax payer and earner' while on 124 pounds a week??????

"still remains a mess just less of one!"

disagree, this is going to be even more complex to administer.

Hulababy Wed 21-Mar-12 13:36:20

lexilicious - bet they are tweeting as it happens

noddyholder Wed 21-Mar-12 13:36:35

Nothing for the young unemployed at all

Does anyone know of any tax credit changes?

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 13:37:40

And so CB has now got even sillier ! A couple can earn £100k and still get it but single earner on £60k can't. Well I don't earn over £7k and my husbands salary is none of my business, so as I've said before, the Chancellor can go whistle. (I actually don't know if this affects us as I really don't know what he earns. I knew he paid HRT. Will all partners be legally required to give their earnings details out?). Bonkers

my dh earns over 60k and i earn less than 10k does that mean we still get it or not? confused

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:38:30

in truth a budget that was the most leaked one i can remember, most budgets are forgotten quite quickly, that tells its own story.

BOMtobewild Wed 21-Mar-12 13:39:04

So who is liable for if CB is misclaimed...? For example: I do not share finances with my partner. I claim CB. I can't legally demand to know what he earns can I?

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:39:36

pumpkinsweetie

Does anyone know of any tax credit changes?

need to look at small print, its not always mentioned in speech.

ChickenLickn Wed 21-Mar-12 13:40:18

Hurray, Tesco's will pay less tax on their millions of profits. No, wait..

notenoughsocks Wed 21-Mar-12 13:40:24

'shows you should be more careful when you first hand out benefits'.

CB is 37 years old. Was born of family allowances - introduced in 1946. Just thought I should add that.

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 13:40:45

I think he wants us little women to declare our partners income. But what if we don't know ?

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 13:41:52

BOM - agree its do stupid a small child could see the hole in this policy. But then they probably live in the real world.

I'm starting to think George doesn't actually know about HRP!

sweetkitty thats the situation we are in we have 5dc my dh is the main earner and I have a small job, we get no other benefits no tax crdits or anything and the child benefit was a real lifeline when paying for the dc's school trips, uniform etc now i'll have to increase my hours at work and get a cm to cover the costs not sure how we will be any better off...? sad

Hulababy Wed 21-Mar-12 13:42:20

BOMtobewild - no, but presumably the Government officials can demand to know via their claim forms. Guess, you just have to both fill the form in and not look at each other's figures. I assume that would be the same for any tax claims?

goingtoofast Wed 21-Mar-12 13:42:22

CB sounds far more complicated. My husband earns 51k so cb will be cut by 10%, it will need to be adjusted if he gets any overtime, adjusted again if he gets a bonus. What will happen to my state pension if he earns overs 60K?

BOMtobewild Wed 21-Mar-12 13:42:31

mumneedswine exactly.

It may come as a surprise to George that not all of us little women live our lives according to our man's wages. I support my DD myself

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:42:31

sparklesandwine

my dh earns over 60k and i earn less than 10k does that mean we still get it or not? confused

its reduced at between 50 and 60 when it goes entirely

Lexilicious Wed 21-Mar-12 13:42:56

I'm really disappointed in Ed Miliband's speech. It's definitely like it was written before the Chancellor's speech. He's being more of a wanker than he needs to be. This isn't responding to the actual substance. Hoyle is having to treat them like toddlers

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 13:43:32

MarkDampier

pumpkinsweetie

Does anyone know of any tax credit changes?

need to look at small print, its not always mentioned in speech.

A quick look at the Budget documents where some of the small print can be found, suggests that not much planned on tax credits. Apart from this:

"From 2012-13, a couple where at least one partner is entitled to Carer’s Allowance may qualify for WTC, including the childcare element, where at least one partner works at least 16 hours per week"

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 21-Mar-12 13:43:50

Maybe the ridiculous assumption is that if you are a higher earner you do not need HRP/pension. Maybe it is seen as a way of cutting the pensions bill in years to come?

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:44:53

goingtoofast

CB sounds far more complicated. My husband earns 51k so cb will be cut by 10%, it will need to be adjusted if he gets any overtime, adjusted again if he gets a bonus. What will happen to my state pension if he earns overs 60K?

dont think your state pension is affected.

Ah right thanks for explaining Mark

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:46:52

Lexilicious

I'm really disappointed in Ed Miliband's speech. It's definitely like it was written before the Chancellor's speech. He's being more of a wanker than he needs to be. This isn't responding to the actual substance. Hoyle is having to treat them like toddlers

a horrible job to do though!

Scarletbanner Wed 21-Mar-12 13:47:04

If I earn £200k, don't smoke, have no plans to move house and don't currently evade/avoid tax, am I better or worse off after this Budget?

Also, do we know which spending will be cut to "balance" tax cuts?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 21-Mar-12 13:47:08

@MarkDampler, but thats the whole point of CB! It's not just the 80pounds pm, it's the fact it covers your NI payments while you are a SAHM so you are still entitled to a pension. CB = contributitory pension year thingy!

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 13:47:42

But if we have to both fill out forms then surely that's means testing and should apply to all families. And what about my pension - not that we'll ever get to retire.

Swed Wed 21-Mar-12 13:49:35

sparklesandwine - as you have a job, both you and your husband will benefit from the increased personal allowance, so assuming you don't have loads of children, you may be better off as a household post that budget.

Hulababy Wed 21-Mar-12 13:49:47

The pension thing will be interesting to see if/how it can be addressed.

Is the CB not means tested as a result of this anyway?

BOMtobewild Wed 21-Mar-12 13:49:57

goingtoofast good point about bonuses. Well, I for one refuse to force my DP to tell me of every bonus he gets so I can call the tax office and be on hold for 30 minutes while they calculate the extra 10% I will lose from my pocket as a result of his hard work. confused

notenoughsocks Wed 21-Mar-12 13:50:16

A bit of a long shot, but will the propososed pension reforms affect HRP/do away with the need for it in any way?

Hulababy Wed 21-Mar-12 13:50:24

Does the loss of personal allowance over a certain income not remain?

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:50:39

rumour is at moment is that there are no nasties in small print that said well worth looking at more thoughful budget analysis in papers and websites tomorrow when everyone has a better chance to examined things more carefully.

BOMtobewild Wed 21-Mar-12 13:51:39

itsallgoingtobefine is that the case??? So SAHM's will now not be contributing to thier NI as a result of their partners income...!? What about when the partner does a runner and the SAHM is left with nothing..?

Do they actually sit down pre budget and say "right, how are we going to screw over women?"

Thanx Mark-that can only be a good thing. If they get their mitts on child tax cred and working tax cred it would defo not be good for low earners

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:53:20

Hulababy

Does the loss of personal allowance over a certain income not remain?

it does if u earn more than £118410, can avoid by paying the 18,410 into a pension, but how many people in this postion

Haziedoll Wed 21-Mar-12 13:53:30

Will it be salary or include things like company car and pension? Dh earns 42k salary but his taxable income is over 50k because it includes company car value and pension. The company car is like a millstone around our neck, it costs dh £6k a year for a mondeo and it no longer feels like a benefit because the company changed the rules and dh has to pay the insurance excess (£250) if he has an accident. It would be much more cost effective for us to ditch the car, and lease our own car but unfortunately dh does too many miles to qualify for a lease arrangement. We shall have to look into this because I don't want the car to be the reason that we lose a percentage of our child benefit.

I still don't understand how on earth they are going to administer it.

Swed Wed 21-Mar-12 13:54:31

I don't honestly think there will be a state pension for everyone by the time we all retire.

SanctiMoanyArse Wed 21-Mar-12 13:55:52

'"From 2012-13, a couple where at least one partner is entitled to Carer’s Allowance may qualify for WTC, including the childcare element, where at least one partner works at least 16 hours per week"

That is great and does help us a lot.

However I do wish more people realisied that if they are a Carer and their child gets Middle Rate DLA, then under Universal Credit they will lose the full carer exemption tehy currently receive and have to work the same hours as a single parents, if not they face workfare* or loss of benefits.

Of course single parents have (technically, In know reality isn't as simple) childcare theyc an access but hey, what's a technicality between mates?

*Under workfare you will have to find your own childcare even if there isn't any, and if your child is over 12 (but disabled) you may well not qualify to have that paid for you.

Sorry to butt in there, I AM grateful for today's exemption as DH is part time self employed, but I want anyone who is in the affected bracket to realise now and not when it is too late

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:55:58

delay to cut in 45% to next year will mean massive loss of revenue as cos and people delay dividends and income!

MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:56:58

Swed

I don't honestly think there will be a state pension for everyone by the time we all retire.

there will be but not until at least 70 in my view.

swed I have 5dc so not sure we will benefit! we get no other benefits no tax credits or anything and the child benefit was a real lifeline when paying for the dc's school trips, uniform etc now i'll have to increase my hours at work and get a cm to cover the costs not sure how we will be any better off....ho hum

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 21-Mar-12 13:59:16

Hula - no, they haven't reduced the threshold for the 40% rate, so everyone earning up to £100k benefits.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 21-Mar-12 14:01:14

Sancti - that is good about about carer's allowance qualifying you for WTC.

SanctiMoanyArse Wed 21-Mar-12 14:01:35

So Child Benefit

Halve the amount for everyone.

Add the amount cut to child and working tax credits so it is in effect means tested anyway.

How hard is that? At least nobody will lose everything. And the tail off will be based on how many chidlren you have as well as income- as Tax Credits do reflect that.

lagoonhaze Wed 21-Mar-12 14:01:50

Anything about local pay for civil servants?

JuliaScurr Wed 21-Mar-12 14:06:41

I'm a baby boomer, too. Sick of seeing the Welfare State attacked, whether pensions, child benefit, NHS, whatever

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 14:07:26

A massive thank you to Mark for guiding us through the Budget; not so much for your expectation we'll all be working until we're 70!

A quick reminder that you can send your questions on how the Budget will affect your family finances to our Q&A here

And thanks again to Mark.

So basically the 'expert' has no answer on HRP?

Thanks Antonia - v impressed with you.

silverfrog Wed 21-Mar-12 14:08:59

no, NL there never is an answer to HRP.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 21-Mar-12 14:11:27

@NL, like everyone else he seems unaware of it...

" MarkDampier Wed 21-Mar-12 13:44:53

goingtoofast:

CB sounds far more complicated. My husband earns 51k so cb will be cut by 10%, it will need to be adjusted if he gets any overtime, adjusted again if he gets a bonus. What will happen to my state pension if he earns overs 60K?

dont think your state pension is affected."

SanctiMoanyArse Wed 21-Mar-12 14:11:43

Never ever.

The benefits that attract HRP will gradually vanish into new names and descriptors (eg Carer's Supplement or Universal credit) and the HRP will vanish quietly <<grim prediction>>

sweetkitty Wed 21-Mar-12 14:11:53

I am a SAHM to 4DC, I cannot afford to work just now until more of them are at school and unlike most people I know we do not have grandparents to provide free childcare.

DP earns over 60K (not much more and is on a pay freeze this year). He's worked bloody hard and funded 2 degrees to get where he is.

We will lose 3K a year tax free a year but DP doesn't have to tell me what he earns we aren't even married!

DP is PAYE so no tax return, so now they will have to put in place a system whereby they will send him a letter, he will fill it in then send it back (to where) for someone to assess and then deduct his next years tax accordingly?

So they are going to set up a new Child Benefit department and at what cost?

A fairer system would be a universal rate of CB for a maximum of 2 children only.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 21-Mar-12 14:13:06

HRP has already vanished since April 2010...

" If you were getting Child Benefit for a child under 16 before 6 April 2010, you automatically qualified for a scheme called Home Responsibilities Protection (HRP) which helped to protect your basic State Pension. This has now been replaced by the weekly National Insurance credits for parents and carers and Earnings Factor credit."

SanctiMoanyArse Wed 21-Mar-12 14:14:55

That would negatively impact on larger families near the poverty line though who have been amde redundant or been hit in other ways, sweetkitty.

Though I would support it if it was brought in nine months from now. Adequate warning etc. But lots of families already being hit hugely through no fault of their own during this recession era, when they enver even considered how this entire economy and job market could crash.

silverfrog Wed 21-Mar-12 14:15:02

well that's me well and truly stuffed for HRP.

dh is a HRT payer.

I can't work due to dd1 - severe disability and stupid school run (oooh, wait, I could get her on school transport at a cost of £20k+ per year, so that I can go out and get a (still part time due to therapies, appts and report wrting) job so I can hav NI contributions back. that sounds cost effective hmm), don't claim DLA so no Carer's (which will all be phased out anyway).

yep, great.

so HRP up the spout, and pension and other general welfare access rights (nhs is dependent on NI contributions, isn't it?) along with it. marvellous.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 21-Mar-12 14:28:05

Yes Antonia you were great.

sweetkitty Wed 21-Mar-12 14:32:45

I understand that about larger families on the poverty line but surely this could be addressed via tax credits.

MamaMaiasaura Wed 21-Mar-12 14:32:48

Ok, so just seen child benefit will be cut for those earning 60 and less for those earning 50. How are they going to address the fact that a family can then earn £99k and still claim? Surely it should be on household income? Set at say 70 phasing out to noting at 80k for an example.

Ok, I'm not actually now affected but it is still bloody unfair how they are doing it angry

goingtoofast Wed 21-Mar-12 14:35:16

Mama they are not going to address it they are ingnoring it and the fact that sahm and d will not get NI credits when they lose CB.

SanctiMoanyArse Wed 21-Mar-12 14:36:35

Yep, it could be, absolutely- although there are changes under Universal Credit that would put the very most vulnerable ( carers, disabled or sick ) at increased risk of losing all means tested benefits for no fault of their own so there are downsides to that too.

Basically, the changes to the welfare state have left us with systems that do not operate in any kind of tandem.

MamaMaiasaura Wed 21-Mar-12 14:38:32

angry fucking bunch of nimby assholes (the gov I mean, not us lot)

noddyholder Wed 21-Mar-12 14:39:05

It is very difficult to actually compute what these things mean in real terms atm as the spending cuts from last year have only been implemented 12% and the remainder will start to kick in from April so in combination I think a lot of people will really feel this later in teh year

goingtoofast Wed 21-Mar-12 14:41:23

I should just add I have no proof that when cb is cut NI credits will be cut just guessing!

AntoniaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 14:45:20

Thanks northernlurker smile

If any of you have questions about HRP post them here and we'll get them answered. Sometimes it's tricky to get into the detail straightaway because it's buried under the rhetoric......

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 21-Mar-12 14:47:30

I don't want to start a new thread, but OMG I hate Ed Balls.

<shudder>

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 14:53:14

Here, hold this noose someone.
I feel incentivised by the budget to hang myself.

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 14:54:02

Xenia will be delighted with this budget.
Feather bedded public sector workers will be taught a lesson.

MamaMaiasaura Wed 21-Mar-12 14:58:04

grin bofin. Yes because all women should be out at work wink

Swed Wed 21-Mar-12 15:02:46

HRP no longer exists, it has been replaced by a different scheme:

From HMRC website:

If you were getting Child Benefit before 6 April 2010
If you were getting Child Benefit for a child under 16 before 6 April 2010, you automatically qualified for a scheme called Home Responsibilities Protection (HRP) which helped to protect your basic State Pension. This has now been replaced by the weekly National Insurance credits for parents and carers and Earnings Factor credit.

You won’t lose out on any protection you have already built up. If you reach State Pension age on or after 6 April 2010, any complete tax years of HRP (up to a maximum of 22 years) you have had will have been converted into full years of credits that count towards your basic State Pension.

If you received Child Benefit for a child under 6, you automatically built up entitlement to an additional pension through State Second Pension.

Top

Further information
For further information you can phone the Pension Service Helpline on 0845 606 0265 or textphone on 0845 606 0285.

You can also phone the National Insurance Helpline on 0845 302 1479 between 8.00 am and 5.00 pm.

Top

More useful links
How to claim Child Benefit

National Insurance credits

Read more about getting credits towards your State Pension on the Directgov website (Opens ne window)

Find out more about understanding the basic State Pension on the Directgov website (Opens new window)

Find out more about the Additional State Pension on the Directgov website (Opens new window)

Top
Do it online
Child Benefit claim form
Child Benefit - report changes online
Send us your Child Benefit query
Tools
Check date of next payment
See also
Tax credits
Child Trust Fund
Child Benefit news
Find a form
Feedback
Revenuebenefits website - for advisers

Swed Wed 21-Mar-12 15:10:34

I've lost my CB, but I understand the money is needed for those in greater need.

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 15:17:33

There is a helpful bit on HMRC website (don't know how to do link but google HMRC budget 2012 child benefit and it pops us). Says how it's to be administered and when from (Jan 2013).

MamaMaiasaura Wed 21-Mar-12 15:32:12

<hands swed a medal grin>

But in all seriousness, yes money is needed, but the system they've said is absurd and flawed and totally unfair.

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 15:40:27

Look, it's not even unfair, it's random. Completely and utterly, illogically random. And it hurts women. And don't kid yourselves that any of this money will go to the needy, either, because it won't.

What are we going to do about it?

I think I will start by refusing to tell them what my husband earns. They can find out themselves, if it matters so much to them. There is no law that demands we tell spouses what money we have, unless a court demands disclosure. If 20 million married people do this, the whole thing will collapse. Could someone draft a standard letter for HMRC/DWP so we can all do this, please?

Next I will lead a very intense process to turf as many men out of the cabinet as possible, to be replaced by women. Again, we need another standard letter please, to go to all our MPs, especially the Tory ones. The current patriarchy has gone on about two centuries too long, in my opinion. We are all fed up now.

What else?

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 15:43:33

You and me both Boffin !

TheQuietCricket Wed 21-Mar-12 15:51:48

So, because we are "all in this together", people earning £50,000 to £99,999 have to lose the child benefit income to contribute to George's ability to reduce the top rate of tax back down to 45% for those earning over £100,000.

Hmmmm, no, sorry, this just doesn't compute as fair or support the statement that we are "all in this together" whichever way I look at it.

It is clearly squeezing the "middle band" of earners again and there are a hell of a lot of them, so this is a nail in the coffin for the Tories at the next election.

Bad move George, grow some balls and stand up to the higher earners. They only have one vote each you know and there are less of them than there are of the "squeezed middle".

Part of the problem is the Governement's London/Home Counties centred approach, those regions have a far higher proportion of higher earners so "get out into the regions and find out about real life in the rest of the UK you twunts!"

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 21-Mar-12 15:52:37

What I would like to know, is whether there is another way to earn your credits towards a State Pension. Can you buy years if you are missing any?

I've already got 14 years of the 22 needed, through NI contributions and then HRP, so in fact I only need to work another 8 years of the next 30 and I will qualify.

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 15:52:50

Look, there's no point debating it. They have just lost the plot, so we need to get them out asap.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 21-Mar-12 15:56:00

Over £150k Cricket, not over £100K.

Swed Wed 21-Mar-12 16:04:05

It is fair that households with a person earning more than £60K get no CB. It isn't unfair that two worker households can bring in more money and still receive CB.

Two worker households are likely to have to pay for childcare.

I think it's women-friendly to encourage and incentivise two-worker households.

TheQuietCricket Wed 21-Mar-12 16:04:22

Alibaba Thanks for the correction I'm probably confusing the limits with the allowances withdrawl level.

You need to contact the contributions agency and see about paying for some of the years where you didn't qualify. You may be just short on some years and they would be the cheapest to make up to full years.

I thought you needed 30 qualifying years to get full state pension - 22 seems like nothing on comparision to a working life now that state pension age has been increased so much.

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 16:20:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 16:26:48

Er excuse me ! We are a two earner family, one paying higher rate and one earning very little. So we still need child care and have commuting costs. I work caring for abused teenagers which pays rubbish, but I don't want to give it up as have done it for years. Don't make assumptions that this is all about SAHMs.

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 16:44:07

Glad you find it amusing Justine. Unfortunately for some of us it's not very funny as its the difference between my kids being able to go on school trips with their friends (this year they will total over £1000 and that's for 3 trips). State schools and things everyone else in their year goes on. We live in SE, 3 bed house, 2 vauxhall cars and are going camping in Ireland for holiday. We have just enough at moment but am now going to have to tell kids they can't go on things. Hubbie may take home £2400 a month but after mortgage & utilities and food and child we are usually left with nothing. CB funds the kids. No holiday from now on so might sell tent. Or children.

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 16:45:10

Meant childcare not child (although they are v expensive)

Haziedoll Wed 21-Mar-12 16:50:48

Why does everyone always assume that this is about SAHM?

In the early years, childcare often cancels out your earnings which is why you are so dependent on the other partners salary/child benefit.

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 16:53:51

Hear hear Hazel. I work too and it affects me - no, not me, my kids.

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 17:00:34

mumsneedwine

Glad you find it amusing Justine. Unfortunately for some of us it's not very funny as its the difference between my kids being able to go on school trips with their friends (this year they will total over £1000 and that's for 3 trips). State schools and things everyone else in their year goes on. We live in SE, 3 bed house, 2 vauxhall cars and are going camping in Ireland for holiday. We have just enough at moment but am now going to have to tell kids they can't go on things. Hubbie may take home £2400 a month but after mortgage & utilities and food and child we are usually left with nothing. CB funds the kids. No holiday from now on so might sell tent. Or children.

Sorry, sorry, posted that on the wrong thread - will delete and repost blog link I mean to post here!

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 17:09:50

Thanks Justine - thought it bit strange mumsnet found this trivial. Hubbie agreed not to tell me his salary and I'm not telling him if I claim CB. Will see you in court Mr O and you can explain to us under what law we have to disclose these details to each other. I'm off to meeting now to discuss how this will affect the families we work with (some have very rich daddies and extremely poor wives and kids).

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 17:11:43

Here's the blog I've written on budget - sorry again for getting my posts muddled!

Swed Wed 21-Mar-12 17:17:40

Haziedoll - Aren't you arguing against yourself? It's not a bit unusual to be a woman worker in low pay (over 70% of low paid jobs are done by women). It's called the female forfeit. In which case isn't it sensible that the government are basically ignoring what in most cases will be the woman's wage in two worker households.

I think this is really good for women with young children earning shit wages but of course it doesn't benefit you if you are married to a high earner. And that is fair.

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 17:24:16

Very quickly, i like the blog. Maybe could mention sometime about partners who do not share their hefty salaries with their partners and use money to control them and the kids. It is more common than you think. Am off to see a young lad later whose dad is a multimillionaire but gives him and his mother nothing. She uses the CB to help him go to school (transport). Yes the father is a prat and I would love her to leave him but she won't. Any advice how to help lad after Jan gratefully received. (meeting delayed as we are all do angry angry).

mumsneedwine Wed 21-Mar-12 17:25:00

Do = so.

Haziedoll Wed 21-Mar-12 17:32:28

I don't really understand what point you are trying to make Swet.

SanctiMoanyArse Wed 21-Mar-12 17:35:03

Swed admirable but it won't go to vulnerable people- as a carer my income is also being slashed over the next few years, albeit by different routes. £ 100PCM minimum for us, £200 PCM minimum fpr another carer family I know.

SanctiMoanyArse Wed 21-Mar-12 17:36:56

Yes mumsneedwine.

My dad was a child in a family like that- Grandad drank his wages, his Mum was bedridden and disabled- Dad worked from age 5 or didn't eat, even when Grandad had overtime it was his, not for feeding his 16 kids.

Not something I want to see back in our society, working 5 year olds.

Bramshott Wed 21-Mar-12 18:04:40

Justine - great blog post, but the point about lone parents is a really key one (and one that people keep glossing over by saying "of course single earner families don't have childcare costs") and I think it risks getting lost because of your type of loan for lone - any way you can change it?!

SanctiMoanyArse Wed 21-Mar-12 18:37:43

We also have childcare costs; if I don't sleep in the day then i don't sleep more than 3 - 4 hours in any 24, it's far cheaper to send ds4 to a CM for a few hours twice a week then pay for night time help.

The bit that scares me is referenced in this blog: http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2012/03/21/nothing-but-fear-for-the-very-poorest-in-this-budget/

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 18:58:20

Bramshott

Justine - great blog post, but the point about lone parents is a really key one (and one that people keep glossing over by saying "of course single earner families don't have childcare costs") and I think it risks getting lost because of your type of loan for lone - any way you can change it?!

yes will try [shame]

RationingRevisited Wed 21-Mar-12 19:13:06

It might just be me not getting this.... but the threshhold is 50k pa.... after CHB cut and outgoings most on that threshhold annual income still have more to 'play' with than we started off with on minimum wage and ever hour we can get....
... just a thought to leave you with as you weep over plus minus 2k per year you loose in CHB as you trolley around M&S

yours sincerely
17kpa, 3 small children, higher education and still saving ££ (not moaning)

BoffinMum Wed 21-Mar-12 20:35:14

Rationing, it's because some people have enormous overheads in order to earn that. For example around here:

£60,000 equals £41,000 after tax
Less £20,000 for two nursery places
Less £6,000 for commuting costs
Less £12,000 for rent on a 3-bed semi

Leaves you £3000 a year to bring up your entire family. So you've lost 40% or so of your income at a stroke of a pen, and have to feed and clothe four people on less than you would be getting on benefit, whilst being told how lucky you are.

That's why people are making a fuss.

MamaMaiasaura Wed 21-Mar-12 21:15:14

Well explained boffin

gazzalw Wed 21-Mar-12 21:18:26

The problem is that it's taxed and as BoffinMum points out - it doesn't go far after travel costs, mortgage and associated bills etc..... And prices of food etc... are more expensive in London. Everything is more expensive in London. And you are forgetting that some of us are not getting any help from (grand)parents or any other 'concessions' as some families benefit from.

I do not know (personally) the ins and out of family tax credits or other benefits but get the impression that some are tax free and that goes a long way to make those 'earnings' worth more than they appear to be on paper - just as my slightly under £50,000 per annum job goes nowhere near far enough for foreign hols, a car, shopping for food in M&S (as if!) and is actually a lot less than it might appear on paper. We don't get council tax exemptions, free prescriptions, free eye tests/dental care etc...as some people on family tax credits do. We have to pay full cost for everything and it bites!

We have friends who are low income families and they seem to do things that we can't in terms of car, holidays, stuff done to the house but the difference is manifold - a very, very small mortgage (possibly only £100 a month or slightly over that), parents who help out with providing evening meals weekly, regular supplies of fruit/veggies, top-ups that help with uniforms and extras for the children, regular holidays etc.... But despite low incomes they get family tax credits and that probably tops up their income considerably.

And also, if you have worked hard at school, uni and then during working life you expect a few luxuries at some point in life. To think that not everyone is shopping in M&S and having fab, glam holidays etc...on £50,000. Not unless they have inherited money with which to buy home outright or are living in the middle of the wilderness with no outgoings...

SanctiMoanyArse Wed 21-Mar-12 21:20:11

You are assuming a lot Rationing !

Yours,

£11k PA joint income (including Carer's Allowance), 4 children, all with SN including severe, TC cut by £25pw for disability tax credit. Still saving (for the moment), but believe in fairness.

SanctiMoanyArse Wed 21-Mar-12 21:22:10

Some are gazzal- but some are not, for eg my Carer's Allowance. Within 3 weeks we will both be graduates (DH about to finish at long bloody last).

Generalisation rarely work in RL.

gazzalw Wed 21-Mar-12 21:40:06

I take my hat off to you and DH for managing with four children on that amount and studying hard..... Let's hope your income goes up amazingly once you graduate....

It is possible to manage on very little and DW and I have both done it in earlier (and younger) working lives...but there comes a point when you reach a certain age when you don't necessarily want to be having to watch every penny you earn. And even on what some would consider to be a 'high' salary (which compared to what my Dad earned, it is), we do have to watch the pennies....

Swed Thu 22-Mar-12 08:55:08

BoffinMUm
"Rationing, it's because some people have enormous overheads in order to earn that. For example around here:

£60,000 equals £41,000 after tax
Less £20,000 for two nursery places
Less £6,000 for commuting costs
Less £12,000 for rent on a 3-bed semi

Leaves you £3000 a year to bring up your entire family. So you've lost 40% or so of your income at a stroke of a pen, and have to feed and clothe four people on less than you would be getting on benefit, whilst being told how lucky you are.

That's why people are making a fuss."

Where's the second income? Presumably there is one, given the two children are in full time nursery?

Second income could be very low or the example could be a lone parent - they need full time nursery. Of course in that case the £3000 would only need to feed and clothe three people.

Swed Thu 22-Mar-12 11:16:59

Well the second income could be low, but would you really pay £20,000 on nursery fees if you earned less than that? But OK, let's say the second income is at the minimum wage. The two nursery places are full time so the second worker must work full time. So their income is boosted by £11K net. Lots of families live on £14k after their rent and commuting is taken into account. And the full time nursery fees are only temporary. Things are going to get better soon for this couple.

And if it's a single parent, I agree. It's shit. Hopefully the single parent receives child maintenance from the absent parent. But I know many don't.

I think they've let down single parents.

BoffinMum Thu 22-Mar-12 19:21:15

hmm Could be a single parent, could be two career family, many permutations possible. The £60k is the TOTAL amount where it's all taken away.

BoffinMum Thu 22-Mar-12 19:27:06

Sorry, I lost the plot there, that was a rubbish post and completely wrong.

grin

Swed Thu 22-Mar-12 19:53:47

BoffinMum - LOL. Now if we could all talk bollock, that would be my kind of thread. grin

Swed Thu 22-Mar-12 19:54:53

i meant bollocks blush its singular form sounds rather obscene.

BoffinMum Thu 22-Mar-12 20:25:55

grin

CardyMow Fri 23-Mar-12 12:29:23

Boffin - what about a Lone Parent on £17k with similar outgoings?

£60,000 equals £41,000 after tax
Less £20,000 for two nursery places
Less £6,000 for commuting costs
Less £12,000 for rent on a 3-bed semi

Leaves £3,000 a year.

OK, they would get £10,920 a year help with their childcare costs from Tax Credits, and £8,340 help from Housing Benefit with their rent, but it would work like this for them:

£17,000 equals £13,992 after tax
Less £9,080 for two nursery places
Less £6,000 for commuting costs
Less £3,660 for rent on a 3-bed semi

Leaves -£4,748 a year.

A £7,748 a year difference. That person would only receive £208 a YEAR in Working Tax Credits, and £5,655 a year Child Tax Credits - which STILL leaves a shortfall of £2,093, as they would only be in the black by £907 a year.

So yes, things are very hard for the first family, on £60,000 a year before tax - but they're a damn sight harder for the second family, on £17,000 a year.

And people on £60,000 would do well to remember that.

I am interested about the HRP thing too - because under the Universal Credit rules, from April 2013, if you go over the benefits cap with your total benefits, then it is the child benefit that will be lost - so however the Government proposes to address the issue of HRP for high earners that will lose their Child Benefit under the income rules, is probably going to end up being the same way that they will address the issue of HRP for those on very low incomes who lose their Child Benefit under the Universal Credit Benefits Cap.

CardyMow Fri 23-Mar-12 12:52:12

So what about the people that studied hard at school (but had SN's or just weren't particularly able), went to college to learn a trade, have worked hard all their life and even in their late 30's are only now getting £17k before tax? Who were earning MUCH less than that when they started working over 20 years ago?

It takes all sorts to make the Country work - but there's plenty of people on £17k or less who work just as hard, if not harder physically, as those on £60k. Who went to college, learnt a trade, and have spent 20+ years working their way up the career ladder in their profession - and are STILL only getting £17k.

Their wage doesn't reflect how hard the work IS - it reflects the fact that their profession isn't as highly regarded.

I really take umbrage at those people who think that only people earning over X amount work hard. It's rubbish. A Lone Parent working 16 hours a week for NMW is working just as hard overall, what with household duties and children to look after singlehanded when they are outside work, as does someone working full-time for £60k, who has another adult in the house to manage the children and household duties - or even if they ARE a Lone Parent on £60k - they can afford to pay for a cleaner to take over some of the household duties - a Lone Parent on NMW can't do that, because they don't have the money, so they have to take on ALL of that work too. It IS different.

And Swed - if I went out to work, I would earn NMW. With care for just my youngest TWO children - I would be paying £20,000 childcare a year out of earnings of LESS than £12k. The ONLY reason that would be possible is because of the help that I would get from Tax Credits - but it would STILL leave me with a childcare bill of £9,080. So it's all relative, £20k as a proportion of £41k (£60k after tax) is 49% of their income. £9,100 (round figure for ease of use) as a proportion of £10,550 (£12k after tax) is 86% of their income - i.e. without Tax Credits help, unsurvivable. Even WITH the Tax Credits, it would STILL be 49% of their income - and having 51% of a starting income of £60k left over is a heck of a lot more than having 51% of a starting income of £12k left over...

SanctiMoanyArse Fri 23-Mar-12 13:41:12

'I take my hat off to you and DH for managing with four children on that amount and studying hard..... Let's hope your income goes up amazingly once you graduate....

'

thank you.

DH graduates in a few weeks, his income is likely to go up each year due to his self employment; I am 2/3 through doing my own website for myself, so if I make anything I will top that amount up. I should get my MA in the next 6 months.

We do OK; we're happy, it might not be the easiest life with the boys but when I look about I suspect it's one of the happier ones. That matters enormously.

Although if anyone wants to contribute by chucking interweb marketing (forASD consultancy / support field) tips my way I wouldn't mind LOL ;)

BoffinMum Fri 23-Mar-12 18:32:44

Huntycat, your logic looks impeccable, as ever.

It's dreadful, not least because of the cost of childcare.

MrAnchovy Sat 24-Mar-12 12:02:26

I make it a rule never to get involved in this kind of discussion, but I'm going to make an exception (I just know I am going to regret this...)

HuntyCat from your figures (I haven't checked any of these but have added in Child Benefit) the hypothetical person who earns £17,000 a year has a net income made up as follows:

Net earnings £13,922
WTC £208
Childcare element £10,920
CTC £5,655
CB £1,757
HB £8,340

Total £40,802

The person who earns £60,000 a year has net income (after tax and national insurance) of £41,410.

Less than £12 a week better off.

BoffinMum Sat 24-Mar-12 20:20:41

I think that's what was nagging away at me, but I didn't have the ability to produce the figures. Thanks for making sense of it for me.

BoffinMum Sat 24-Mar-12 20:25:02

Can I add that there are no student loan repayments in the £60,000 version as well, even though they might be an issue for people, and they may have additional childcare costs as earning that kind of money suggests a professional/managerial role that could involve well some overnight trips, anti-social hours working and so on, so there are further confounding factors there as well.

MrAnchovy Sat 24-Mar-12 22:40:22

Yes I did think about mentioning the student loan - but on £60k you are going to be repaying £4,050 a year so it is going to be paid off pretty quick!

I have been doing a bit of research and will be posting a detailed example soon.

BoffinMum Sun 25-Mar-12 09:27:49

That would be really useful, thank you, and I look forward to seeing the figures.

CardyMow Sun 25-Mar-12 19:28:56

I didn't include the child benefit for a huge reason - because BOTH families will ultimately lose it, one because their earnings are over £60k, the other because their income will exceed the benefits cap, so they will ALSO LOSE THEIR CHILD BENEFIT. Hence the argument for not including it in the calculations.

People stressing about losing their Child Benefit because they are earning over £60k a year need to realise that there will ALSO be plenty of people on £6k - £17.5k that will ALSO lose their child benefit due to the benefit cap.

With Universal Credit, Child Benefit will be the LAST payment added on to the UC payments - so if the Child Benefit takes you over the £26k cap, then it is the Child Benefit that will be lost.

The combination of taking Child Benefit away from high earners because they 'earn too much', and taking it away from the unemployed and the low earners because it takes them over the benefit cap spells the end of Child Benefit. I predict it will just be a memory for everyone when 10 years has passed.

We are all in this together...

MrAnchovy Mon 26-Mar-12 01:15:14

With Universal Credit, Child Benefit will be the LAST payment added on to the UC payments - so if the Child Benefit takes you over the £26k cap, then it is the Child Benefit that will be lost.

That's not how I understand it. I believe that Child Benefit (and certain other non-means tested benefits such as Contributory Job Seekers Allowance) will reduce the benefits cap. The effect is the same of course, but it seems to me to be a misleading appeal

Of course the other misleading information about the benefits cap of £500pw is that it is similar to the average wage of £25,500. Someone earning £25,500 only takes home £378pw - to take home the £500pw that will be paid to some receivers of Universal Credit you would need to earn £34,860.

In addition, the proposed 65% taper means that if someone is entitled to £500pw of Universal Credit and has gross earnings of £50,000 they will still get £56 a week credit.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now