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Webchat with Daisy Goodwin, lunchtime, Tues 23 June

(428 Posts)
GeraldineMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 18-Jun-09 11:47:31

As requested and promised, Daisy has accepted our invite and is coming on next Tuesday (exact time to be confirmed, but probably around 1pm). Get there early to bag your place.

CMOTdibbler Thu 18-Jun-09 11:55:48

S'not fair - I'm away on business then. Humph.

So tell us Daisy, what is it about MN that upsets you so ? Is it that we express opinions and don't wrap it all up in fuzzy pink hugs and huns ?

Please look for all the genuine support here on bereavement, pregnancy loss, and women experiencing domestic violence. MN certainly got me through some dark days in my life. Oh, and sometimes makes me spit coffee over my keyboard in laughter

tiktok Thu 18-Jun-09 11:57:45


LackaDAISYcal Thu 18-Jun-09 13:50:14

Should be an interesting and.....erm.....lively discussion.

<clears diary>

doulalc Thu 18-Jun-09 14:13:13

Have to ask....who is Daisy Goodwin?

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 14:15:43

<saves chair for Hunkermunker>

Lulumama Thu 18-Jun-09 14:16:55

this should be interesting.

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 14:17:48
ahundredtimes Thu 18-Jun-09 14:19:25

Doulac - she's a television producer, writer and columnist. I am a bit of a fan, she's smart and clever and a good thing imo.

however she has had the misfortune to write a number of not so complimentary things about MN in a Daily Mail column. Roughly along the lines of MNers all being gestapo-like lactivists who refuse to accept or tolerate the notion of bottle feeding. Or something like that. And maybe another piece about how women don't support each other but vent on-line in a hysterical and bitchy manner.

Now she's coming here, and we're going to talk breasts I expect and she will be surprised by our common sense and sisterly understanding, good humour and tolerance of all things different.

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 14:21:39
morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 14:58:48

I would very much like to ask about the Bringing Up Baby series if no one else will:

In the series you seem to have employed Claire Verity, a woman who stated: "I can't understand why anybody wants to cuddle a baby or pick a baby up: a baby doesn't want to be touched all the time. All they want is to be left alone to grow" and: "Once he's got eye contact, he knows he's in charge."

You stuck by the series when the NSPCC and the National Childbirth Trust asked for the series not to be commissioned; when FSID declared her methods to risk infants' lives; when she was banned from the baby show at Earl's Court; when the NSPCC said that these methods were 'outdated and potentially harmful'; when her methods were condemned by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health; when the Nursing and Midwifery Council claimed Verity was 'deceptive'; when the show was only broadcast in Australia after a health warning of risk to babies preceded it; when Ofcom received nearly 1,000 complaints. When you allowed mothers of newborns to be filmed weeping with the pain of it all while they carried out Verity's instructions.

You did all of this without verifying her qualifications, which unfortunately only run to part-owning a nightclub and running a chocolate shop.

In the light of all this, how do you wish you had done things differently?

FrontRowFig Thu 18-Jun-09 15:00:26


FrontRowFig Thu 18-Jun-09 15:01:04

I agree with MP
you were a nob abotu that.

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 15:07:19

i would love to see her answer that, MP, and not some weaselly nonsense like she blethered at the time about social history and education. i didn't know that about Australia, how utterly shameful for her.

make no mistake, i thought that show showed scenes of an abusive nature, such as starving small babies of feeds then doubling up their measures and force feeding them until they were sick And Then Force Feeding Them Some More to get them back into a routine. and i'm no hippy myself.

God I wanted to throw the remote at the TV watching that show. Did Daisy Goodwin produce that? How awful. At least for me that show made me realise that I was making the right choices for DD (demand feeding etc.) but I expect some people just saw the parents getting a break from 7 to 7 and though 'what a good idea, if it's on TV it must be ok' hmm. There was no discussion of the long term consequences of these methods.

Hmmm, I wonder if she'll do a Sherezezerezereade...

LackaDAISYcal Thu 18-Jun-09 16:18:30

<waves to bumper>

even though she is feeling neglected wink

FrontRowFig Thu 18-Jun-09 16:21:33

there were too many paragraphs in the DM article

FrontRowFig Thu 18-Jun-09 16:23:20

Ah i have now a Phd in Daisy goodwin while one kid is watching tv one playing and one away.
( if that is ok and their "needs are fulfilled")

"The mother of two children, Daisy also finds time to dream up and edit poetry anthologies, including the bestseller 101 Poems That Could Save Your Life."


AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 16:36:57

she's been on tv, fig, wafting about and giggling over romance stories. without wishing to be too uncharitable, i do think that her view of womanhood and motherhood must have been influenced by her own mother and step-mother, with whom i think it's fairly well known she had a tricky time.

don't get me wrong, it sounds confusing for a small child and tremendously hurtful to be left but i don't understand how a self-professed 'helicopter mother' could have been so happy to see those twin babies suffer just so that she could get a tv programme made.

foxytocin Thu 18-Jun-09 17:31:09

i will miss the fireworks. sad grin

foxytocin Thu 18-Jun-09 17:36:39

if my baby was 18 yrs old I would also have lots of time "to dream up and edit poetry anthologies, including the bestseller 101 Poems That Could Save Your Life."

{hmm] hmm hmm

What is a helicopter mom?

LackaDAISYcal Thu 18-Jun-09 18:05:09

A mum who hovers just behind her child everywhere they go as far as I understand it!

sallyjaygorce Thu 18-Jun-09 18:32:21

Daisy Goodwin is right about the tone of SOME MN breastfeeding forums. There are also some that are very helpful and supportive but she is a journalist making a quick and perfectly accurate point - just not a balanced one - they do that you know. MN is always guilty of protesting too much whenever someone touches a nerve about the 'vituperative' side of some threads on here. Surely you have to be deluded and totally unable to laugh at yourselves if you can't see the truth of that. It doesn't detract from the value of MN at all. What is it about MN that makes some people so over sensitive and righteous? Ooh! Someone said something negative! Let's get them on here and gang up. There is a element of old hags sitting around the guillotine enjoying the executions. Hope you feel your Tues is well spent.

foxytocin Thu 18-Jun-09 18:39:59

<gets out knitting needles>
<adjusts spectacles and shawl>

Point of order: does one just answer the easy questions on these webchats? Is there a Jonathan Dimbleby who insists the target guest answers the question?

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 18:52:44

"It doesn't detract from the value of MN at all" well quite

I'm not sure that this somewhat more thoughtful view was conveyed by the article where we were described as the "self-righteous childcare fundamentalists of the internet" just because we disagreed with the methods of a woman who runs a chocolate shop

LupusinaLlamasuit Thu 18-Jun-09 19:38:28

Ah bollocks, I am in Very Important Meeting that day. I will post some advance questions though sure you lot will do the business.

LupusinaLlamasuit Thu 18-Jun-09 19:45:25

The question I would like the answer to is what proportion, in your estimation, of vituperative posts about breastfeeding are in existence on MN threads, in comparison to those in which supportive, accurate, well-informed, encouraging and sisterly advice is given?

Because I suspect you are over-estimating. And I suspect this is perhaps because of one of two things: 1. Projection, in the psychoanalytic sense, of your own angst about feeding; 2. Needing a cheap quick point to a hook your piece onto.

Evidence, Daisy, that's what I'd like to see in good journalism. Not nonsense.

theyoungvisiter Thu 18-Jun-09 19:46:26

Morningpaper, I don't think I could better your question, so could I just stand behind you while you ask it, nodding and murmuring "hear, hear" in a low and respectful tone?

Although I am not sure whether the murmuring will be audible above the baying of the mn hounds lively discussion that is sure to ensue.

LackaDAISYcal Thu 18-Jun-09 19:47:12

"What is it about MN that makes some people so over sensitive and righteous?" Oh the irony; your tone sounds a wee bit oversensitive itself, non?

<wonders if sallyjay is DG's PA or summat?>

theyoungvisiter Thu 18-Jun-09 19:49:46

I think the problem many journalists have with MN is their utter horror when they discover there are hundreds of opinionated, informed, strident, literate, articulate and feisty women out there, writing about issues in a rather funny and provocative way, and worse, doing it for FREE.

The horror. After all, who needs to pay for the Daily Mail when you can click on AIBU?

Lulumama Thu 18-Jun-09 19:52:02

if she only answers one question, it must be morningpaper's.

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 19:59:28

oh she can say what she likes about MN, sallyjay (nice to meet you btw), i couldn't give a stuff about that, it was so clearly just there as padding to justify her own screwed-up viewpoint on bfing. if you're writing an opinion piece for the DM you do need to concoct an enemy.

no no, it's the abuse and exploitation of tiny babies by a woman with no child care qualifications and a self-professed past history of shagging her clients' husbands while their wives are giving their babies their alloted daily cuddle... that's what i'm interested in. smile

did you SEE the programme, sallyjay?

Lulumama Thu 18-Jun-09 20:00:26

you know, i had actually partly forgotten how terrible that programme was, i think i had blanked it out.

TheCrackFox Thu 18-Jun-09 20:04:32

That programme was absolutely dire. TBH Daisy should just admit she cocked it up and apologise.

Wonder what Clare Verity is doing now?

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 20:05:31

i wonder if daisy will search for the threads from the nights they were on, get the blow-by-blow horror?

AbricotsSecs Thu 18-Jun-09 20:07:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rubyslippers Thu 18-Jun-09 20:08:15

that programme was hideous

there was a few threads about it as it happened - i think Aitch gave fair warning that it may cause some hackles to rise!

one of the things i would be interested in is how much she uses MN for research for her pieces?

have noticed more and more journalists using MN (legitmately via Media requests) and not so - that infertility thread this week ...

so if the site is trawled a lot why does no-one ever highlight the amazing stuff which goes on - mile for maude, Xmas appeals and more

but then i guess those aren't a story to get DM readers frothing at the mouth

AbricotsSecs Thu 18-Jun-09 20:11:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 20:13:41

the infertility thread was not started by a journalist, i happen to know for a fact. just an mner who didn't want her ttcing friends to be able to recognise her. i imagine she felt happier on the same thread that didn't kick off.

apols to the person who has just gone 'eeeek'. i won't be identifying you, no worries. smile

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 20:14:39

I remember the day Aitch saw the pre-broadcast tape <fond>

we were all drinking heavily that night

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 20:28:59

that is true, hooch. although it does remain to be seen if she comes on. i would like to speak to her, without it all descending into a slanging match. i just CAN'T understand how that woman was put in charge of children. remember her 'oh you won't be in the same room as the children', and the prams in the garden (not such a prob with that, personally, but the MOTHER was beside herself). and the immediate giving up of bfing of the twin mum despite having said that she wanted to and HAVING A NANNY THERE 24/7. basically because that's teh way CV wanted it.

ooooh, and the party, where the twin mum wouldn't let anyone in to see her children in case, god forbid, they woke up. her pals thought she was mental, lol.

goingnowherefast Thu 18-Jun-09 20:37:42

"In your recent article you blamed the nct for pressurising women to breastfeed. Don't you think you should find another target for your condemnation? Looking aat the statistics, approx. 90% of women who give up breastfeeding in the first couple of weeks would have liked to continue*. The NCT is one of the few organisations who offer these women vital support that they often do not get from the health professionals. Surely first and foremost this is the statistic that needs addressing. "

*Can someone verify/edit this statistic? I plucked it from somewhere in my head, I know it's something similar!

AbricotsSecs Thu 18-Jun-09 20:40:18

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 20:41:54

oh yes, most definitely.

She is probably counting on it turning into bitchfest summer 2009.

policywonk Thu 18-Jun-09 20:44:35

Blimey, she is going to be eviscerated. <hopeful>

There are only two questions really - MP's one and Lupus's one (and variations thereof). The answer to both of them is 'I was wrong and I'm sorry.'

<bookmarking bookmarking bookmarking>

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 20:49:35

No of course we will be polite and charming and welcoming. We don't want her screaming SEE? I TOLD YOU SO! YOU ARE ALL MAD.

Justine will tie me to a chair

I will bring scones and nice plates

ahundredtimes Thu 18-Jun-09 20:49:44

I don't want slanging either. After all she's made LOADS of programmes which we've all watched and enjoyed very much - this one was a bum note in a successful and interesting career. She deserves respect for that.

It'll be interesting to hear what she thinks about why it went wrong, and how. Does she think it pushed the reality format one step too far?

I also think it should be an interesting discussion re her personal experiences of bf- but it'd be a very bad lot if it were to become personal and mean and snide. I hate it when that happens.


Daisy are you any relation to Sir Fred Goodwin, formally of RBS? grin

sallyjaygorce Thu 18-Jun-09 20:59:49

Policywonk - why are you hopeful she will be eviscerated? I guess this was tongue in cheek but kind of proves the point about knitting round the guillotine mentality.

There is sometimes a self righteous streak on MN. Everything she mentions is in evidence on MN - it's just not the full picture. It's not nonsense. It's her opinion. Also not sure why she should talk about her own bf experiences. I know people who bf for a long and very happy time who have been shocked by some of the attitudes that emerge on here. We have all seen them. It's not the norm but it does happen.

Re the film - no I didn't see it - the TV hasn't worked for weeks and we're beginning to like life without it.

I am not her PA. I am only a PA to my children. And occasionally DH if he's driving and needs me to answer a call.

AbricotsSecs Thu 18-Jun-09 21:01:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 21:03:20

Actually I think they were a trifle cold

Being in the garden "to air" and all that...

sallyjaygorce Thu 18-Jun-09 21:07:59

Sorry to have missed this but what was the prog called?

AbricotsSecs Thu 18-Jun-09 21:09:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 21:10:04

It was called Bringing Up Baby. There isn't much evidence of it left on the interweb because Channel 4 sort of washed their hands of the whole thing once it was discovered that Claire Verity didn't have the qualifcations that she claimed to have. The thread linked to below gives a good summary.

brendaAndEddie Thu 18-Jun-09 21:11:16

no slanging grin

oi 100 times

Billy joel

foxytocin Thu 18-Jun-09 21:15:44

and claire verity's site proclaiming herself as a baby guru has now disappeared.

but here survives some useful history and commentary on BUB and CV.

hunkermunker Thu 18-Jun-09 21:19:31


I would like to ask MP's question too, please.

And also:

Do you think your pieces paint a fair picture of the bf threads on MN or are you guilty of only seeing the far rarer, shriller stuff (which is quickly squashed flat v firmly by the more sensible among us), because it makes good copy?


I also don't think she should be lambasted - nobody can answer questions if they're on the floor, coughing up blood, spitting teeth and generally going "It's not me you want, it's Danielle Lloyd", can they?

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 21:20:36

sounds like a night of marital passion in this house hunker

sallyjaygorce Thu 18-Jun-09 21:30:17

Didn't get the link. Is she some kind of Truby King type then? Let me guess - like Gina F - no kids of her own, probably a nanny to people who have kids as accessories and needs a 'method' to run her domain with maximum efficiency. Fresh air, exercising lungs and zero comfort at bedtime? Assuming it's that old chestnut. She probably hangs out with the woman who looks in fridges and makes people poo in boxes so she can humiliate them on TV.

So it was basically the other extreme of programmes about women who bf until their kids are 10 or let them run about naked weeing everywhere for years as some kind of natural potty training.

Time to bring my baby in from the balcony.

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 21:31:28

Yes you are pretty much there. Although Gina Ford described Verity's methods as "Child abuse" so you can imagine the end of the spectrum they were on

sallyjaygorce Thu 18-Jun-09 21:35:06

Thanks for link foxytocin - I DID see some of that - ages ago. I thought it was a new one. Yes - was shocked that parents would put themselves forward for that. But am also shocked that people let Gina F tell them what time to eat their toast.

I was left out to air for ages when I was little but I was always tethered near a shady tree for shelter until mum got back from her Protect and Survive meetings. And got a cuddle on Christmas morning and for every other birthday.

LackaDAISYcal Thu 18-Jun-09 21:37:50

100x, I think that when she used babies in a reality TV "experiment" she most definately crossed a line. At least when adults commit to programmes of this nature they are giving their informed consent; who asked those poor twins though whether they wanted to be on the receiving end of it? sad

My DD was tiny when this was aired and I was absolutley horrified by it.

sallyjay, it was almost two years ago that the programme was broadcast. So vile was it, that two years on it is still entrenched in MN's collective memory.

ahundredtimes Thu 18-Jun-09 21:38:12

But Hoochie yes, I do think that's almost the most interesting question for me. I don't think it's a tad. . . .

If you've covered what to wear, houses to build, how to clean a house etc - then how to bring up a baby is the next one. (and also DG in part is responsible for bringing women's 'interests' 'concerns' into mainstream telly and this falls absolutely into that bracket).

I'm honestly interested as to whether she thinks at that point the format imploded because we can watch wives swopping but not babies being mistreated iyswim.

ahundredtimes Thu 18-Jun-09 21:38:58

Yeah Lack. I'm asking whether she now, with the benefit of hindsight, thinks that too.

policywonk Thu 18-Jun-09 21:44:57

Sally - I thought that BUB programme was really, utterly loathsome, and her defences of it were dishonest and maddening in the extreme.

I do take the point about rudeness though. I usually hate it when people are rude on MN livechats so I think I might have to sit this one out.

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 21:50:57

tbh i think this an important one, shoudl we think about appointing a Chief Inquisitor? i'm quite serious, we trusted the wonk to represent our interests with the politicky thing, should we nom MP, 100x or whoever (not me for christsakes i've just been called juvenile on another thread for loathing margaret thatcher wink).

i really would be embarrassed to see this descend into a slanging match but at the same time i do want to see DG pinned against a wall down to answer the very few questions we have and not able to pull the old 'oh goodness i've never used a computer before' avoidance tactic.

policywonk Thu 18-Jun-09 21:52:35

I wonder whether the franster would do it. She'd very good at not being rude without ceding any important ground.

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 21:54:50

i'd be quite happy with that, but i bet she'll come over shy and refuse. what about a 100x/mp tag team?

sallyjaygorce Thu 18-Jun-09 21:55:34

Hello Policywonk - I have now realised I did see some of that prog - I thought you were just referring to her references to MN - duh! But I felt more angry with the parents who allowed it to be made. Who the hell would follow that advice? I guess it 'worked' for people in the 50's so I can see how DG could try to defend it. Evisceration seems a bit harsh. A Chinese burn and shaving off her eyebrows?

Maybe all that coldness and restraint made the poor little babies react by becoming free loving hippies. All that time freezing in the garden led to Flower Power. Peace and love. And good night.

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 21:55:38

apols if this isn't true, frrank, i do think you'd be ace.

policywonk Thu 18-Jun-09 21:55:50

Although MP would also be able to ask questions and maintain good humour at the same time.

100x isn't cross enough IMO and wants to talk about documentaries wink

Actually, what docs has she made other than <deep breath> that one? Are they all about poetry? It might explain why I had only been vaguely aware of her before. (I hate poetry.)

ahundredtimes Thu 18-Jun-09 22:00:40

grin I'm not cross it's true. I don't think crossness so very helpful as a rule. I do think it's relevant question though. I also think she'll say it was to spark debate, to demonstrate there is no one way of doing things, no single expert.

Then I'll nod and offer her tea, and tbh I'd rather talk about books anyway. Airy, me.

You don't need one questioner.

sallyjaygorce Thu 18-Jun-09 22:00:49

Oh - meant to say - I LOVE poetry and my life would be much poorer without it so I do love her for all that. Her anthologies are very twee but with some good content. And any poetry programming is good. Without poetry over the last three years I would probably have had a serious breakdown. Nothing else distills a moment of emotion so immediately and so intimately for me. Except music sometimes. So I have to like her for that.

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 22:02:32

romane writing, not a great programme imo because it was all about her going on a course and tbh who cares about that? but i think it mentioned georgette heyer so scored highly with me for that. smile nearly called dd2 georgette. lol.

apart from that was she something to do with jamie oliver? and i think how clean your house, house doctor, property ladder, all that grabby but secretly enjoyable pre-crunch shite.

ahundredtimes Thu 18-Jun-09 22:02:47

I like poetry too, v. much. Though I did read it before Daisy grin

hunkermunker Thu 18-Jun-09 22:03:58

I think it's a good idea to appoint a chief inquisitor.

It gets a bit descendy otherwise, as you say.

Harpsi would be good.

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 22:06:12

yy spark debate, there isn't only one way, i bought books when i had mine and got all neurotic etc etc... Daisy, we don't want to hear that tbh. you said it before, during the furore, and none of us bought it then. so skip it, will ya? smile

i think a few questioners would be good, 100x. or at least a few agreed questions that must be answered properly, without flannel, composed with the thought that she'll be corresponding with women who are every bit as smart as she is uppermost in her mind.

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 22:06:38

I think I should be tied to a chair with Policywonk

Not generally, you understand, just for the webchat

ahundredtimes Thu 18-Jun-09 22:06:53

And Grand Designs too.

Right I am going to have leave this thread now. It makes me anxious. I also once spent precious hours of my life defending Tony Parsons fgs because I hate the rude live chats so much hmm I need to get over myself. I need to get cross


hunkermunker Thu 18-Jun-09 22:07:15

I've sparked debate before, as have we all <ahem> and we've not stood back and allowed babies to be abused on television in the process.

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 22:07:24

...even if they're not that great at punctuating long phrases. hmm wink

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 22:08:13

PW is very cute, MP. you'd make a lovely couple.

policywonk Thu 18-Jun-09 22:09:19

Could we be tied to a large sofa instead? With cake, booze and a box-set of the West Wing? Then you can all ask DG whatever you like.

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 22:09:37

We would be unfortunately I never sleep with people whose thighs are smaller than mine

morningpaper Thu 18-Jun-09 22:10:09

<squeal> the West Wing now you are talking

policywonk Thu 18-Jun-09 22:14:46

Don't be anxious 100x. We all think you're right about the rudeness stuff. It's not a great way to get people to open up.

I'm sensing that Hunker is still maintaining dangerous underlying levels of crossness, mind. More KoolAid needed.

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 22:18:51

exactly, that's the whole point. i think too often these things become such a slanging match that a. it's mortifying and b. the schleb gets to wriggle off the hook. not good on either count, imo.

i thought tony parsons was a good laugh, actually. his was one of the better chats that i can recall. although i rarely read them now, precisely because of the mob element.

hunkermunker Thu 18-Jun-09 22:21:36

Nah, I'm cucumber cool, me.

But I've been very strict with myself recently - I don't make eye contact once it's dark and I don't comfort myself however loudly I scream at nap time, so I've well and truly broken my spirit...

sallyjaygorce Thu 18-Jun-09 22:26:22

Do you think those parents carried on with all that Auschwitz stuff once the prog was over? Or did they rush over scoop them back into loving arms?

ahundredtimes Thu 18-Jun-09 22:28:30

Okay. My final thought is that she made, imo, a critical professional error in making that programme. I honestly want to know whether she agrees. I don't think this error makes her a bad human being or morally suspect or in any way deserving of being bullied or taunted.

I can see absolutely how a lifestyle programming department would think parenting babies - post supernanny etc - was the next thing to move into, and it was a mistake. People make mistakes. I'd like her to talk about that mistake. Your thoughts please Daisy?

<adjusts white gloves, sniffs salts>

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 22:30:47

i remember that they had a quote on claire verity's website some time afterwards saying how great it was all working... so sadly i presume not, sal.

hinker, goingnowhere wanted someoen to confirm the stat for women who want to bf versus women still doing it at one month/six months etc. do you know it off the top of your head?

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 22:34:08

i think supernanny was mistake as well, tbh.

see... apart from the bringing up baby prog and her bitchy breastfeeding articles i'm not much interested in her. she was just a jobbing producer who got picked to be some tv totty, i prefer an expert, by and large.

hunkermunker Thu 18-Jun-09 22:35:08

Does that help at all?

And 90% of women who stop in the first six weeks wanted to continue.

The NCT website used to have a MARVELLOUS page on it with all the stats, but they redesigned it and it's crap now - you can't find anything useful.

100x, I agree - it was the next logical step. And commissioners aren't the most, er, ethical beasts [ratings are king]

There are too many channels anyway. Bring back the days of having enough fingers on one hand to count the available channels, I say.

hunkermunker Thu 18-Jun-09 22:38:35

Am also not a fan of Supernanny.

Dr Tanya Byron had the right idea when she stopped doing these progs [integrity]

The children in them ought not to have consent given for them by the lunatics who've dragged them to the brink of "delinquency" in the first place, surely? Not the babies, obv, no such thing as hooligan babies.

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 22:39:02

but that's what's interesting, it was the next logical step, esp in light of the commodification of babies.

BUT DG is setting herself up as a parenting commentator with these articles in the DM, she's blethering about the ethics of pretend high heels for little bubs etc, always mentioning her own children.

and imo, with that programme on her record she has no right to do so, because she was complicit in the emotional abuse of very small babies and at the time defended it.

would she have put her own tiny babies forward for television experimentation, i wonder?

Agree with the idea of a chief inquisitor/inquisitorial team to lead the questions on BUB itself might be sensible - otherwise huge potential for rude shouty vituberance (is that a word?) Like MP's original question.

Assume tiktok/hunker will cover bf.

I will try and think of a nice, friendly poetry question, to give her a little break between vipers.

And will avoid any 'Nigella of Poetry' comments.
Although maybe that's a compliment...

All power to her for entering the lion's den, though.

hunkermunker Thu 18-Jun-09 22:43:50

Very good question.

Beeny might not show houses she's developed herself, but there's a bit of a difference there!

I do agree, 100x, that the pile-on is never a good look - but I hope Daisy realises that there's a difference between an orchestrated attack (which is v rare indeed) and an "oh, look, lots of people have the same opinion as me and I can't know when they're posting, so it might look like we're ganging up".

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 22:45:27

so when some spotty nobboid in a skinny tee and a long cardie said 'what about babies?' she should have said 'no, i'm a parent, that would just be wrong' and let some other company come up with it. that's what i mean. it was a moral and ethical decision that she took to use tiny babies as part of an experiment, not just a wee career mistake.

foxytocin Thu 18-Jun-09 22:46:35

so lets see if I got this right. DG thinks it is a crime to put babies in pretend high heels but thinks it fine for CV to encourage parents to ignore their instincts and to force feed babies and / or make them wait to be fed?

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 22:48:01

yes, that's true. loads of people pressing 'send' at the same time because they've spotted a rather glaring hole in an argument is not a hounding, it's a response made by a number of individuals in response to the same hole.

hunkermunker Thu 18-Jun-09 22:48:09

This is from the Silver River website:

4 x 60' for Channel 4

A strict regimen of four-hourly feeds or breast-feeding on demand? Constant physical contact between mother and child or leaving baby to sleep for eight hours a day in a pram in the garden? Controlled crying or responding to his every whim? For the past 100 years, new parents have been bombarded with volumes of highly specific - and contradictory - advice on how to care for their little bundles of joy.

Bringing Up Baby takes the guiding principles of three of the last century's most popular handbooks and observes six sets of parents as they put them to the test. The series follows each expectant mum through the final stages of her pregnancy, childbirth and the first three months of the infant's life. The families have all chosen the method they want to follow. We’ll be with them every step of the way as they explore the wealth of advice on antenatal care, feeding, establishing sleeping patterns, diet and staying sane.

Will the military routine of Dr Truby King's 1913 book Feeding and Care of Baby provide the structure and respite the exhausted new parents are looking for? Will Dr Benjamin Spock's famous piece of advice from 1946: "Trust yourself: you know more than you think you do" be reassuring - or panic-inducing? Will the 'in-arms' phase recommended by Jean Liedloff's 1975 Continuum Concept produce a blissed-out baby - or an addled mum?.

Bringing Up Baby combines living-history techniques with fascinating archive footage and the personal testimonies of both parents and professionals to chart the changing fashions and attitudes of the last century, while addressing some age-old questions about how to raise our children and whether, in the end, it's not the expert, but mother who really knows best.

Series Producer
Anna Davies

Executive Producer
Daisy Goodwin / Tanya Shaw

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 22:50:09 this is about MN's response to her bfing article, foxy.

foxytocin Thu 18-Jun-09 23:02:54

now you forced me to read that aitch. can't say i like her writing style.

did i detect a tone of simpering victim there or is that just me being a viper from the nest.

TheCrackFox Thu 18-Jun-09 23:04:13

I'd like to ask Daisy why she writes for such a crap paper?

AitchTwoOh Thu 18-Jun-09 23:06:41

they're great payers, crackfox. best in the industry, pretty much.

TheCrackFox Thu 18-Jun-09 23:11:55

Oh, didn't know that. Well, to be fair, there is no point in working for nothing.

LupusinaLlamasuit Mon 22-Jun-09 12:16:42

So. She's still coming then?

<evil cackle bump>

No. Let's not confirm all her prejudices. Let's be nice. But searingly clever. It's the only way.

sophable Mon 22-Jun-09 14:22:34

haha! why didn't you stickie this one then eh??

sophable Mon 22-Jun-09 14:26:58

Daisy, the thing is that out there in the big wide world it's still all (follow on) formula ads and anti breastfeeding.

NO ONE slates anyone that can't breastfeed. but calling people that understand that cows milk is intended for cows and human milk for humans lactivists is inappropriate. to say the least.

LupusinaLlamasuit Mon 22-Jun-09 14:51:06

ooh, they've stickied it!

<pulls up chair and opens beer>

<regrets having Very Important Meeting tomorrow>

Rhubarb Mon 22-Jun-09 14:59:07

There's a fine line with most things concerned with parenting. You do get the odd fanatasist who insists that their way is right and everyone else is wrong, but most of us do tend to keep within that line.

Shame that Daisy only sees the fanatasists.

FluffyBunnyGoneBad Mon 22-Jun-09 15:05:25

Haaaaa, does she have someone else reading the posts for her so they can censor them before she reads them? grin

theyoungvisiter Mon 22-Jun-09 15:18:14

I think with all these webchats it would be good to have a "ten best questions" to kick off with, the ten questions that we really want answered (we could vote for them off the pre-discussion threads).

Then we could discuss the rest live, but too often the really interesting points get buried under a mountain of trivia, or the interviewee just chooses to ignore the trickier ones.

foxytocin Mon 22-Jun-09 15:29:52

good point TYV.

regrets having to take dd1 to primary visit.

Rhubarb Mon 22-Jun-09 16:17:55

Ok, why is it, that on a huge forum such as Mumsnet, where the vast majority of threads are supportive and community-spirited, do you insist on picking out the minority and leading others to believe that this is the norm?

I can think of so many threads were Mumsnetters have to come to each others aid. There have been huge supportive threads on breastfeeding; bereavement; miscarriage; ante and post-natal depression; mental health and so on. Secret Santa is organised every year to send unsuspecting Mumsnetters gifts. Friendships have been made. I have never known such a community to offer so much to its members. Mumsnet could benefit so many more mums. Yet you choose to portray it as this vipers nest full of bitches with a chip on their shoulder. That's a far cry from the real picture, as you well know. So I'd just like to ask - why?

Swedes Mon 22-Jun-09 16:49:52

This is a q to everyone on this thread. Has anyone on Mumsnet ever made you cry? It's happened to me on a few occasions. In real life I'm a well balanced and intelligent person, not overly prone to tears. I now completely avoid the baby-feeding threads because the intolerance shown is truly shocking.

I'd like to pat Daisy Goodwin on the back for raising this revolting and unsisterly behaviour on Mumsnet.

<squeezes Daisy G's hand>

smellen Mon 22-Jun-09 16:52:28

Had to smile at being labelled a "fundamentalist" grin

Could it be our new slogan? "Mumsnet, putting the FUN back into fundamentalists..."

Rhubarb Mon 22-Jun-09 16:57:07

I can think of a few intolerant people yes, but the majority wouldn't.

I don't tend to go into the baby feeding threads as my kids are older than that now, but I'll have a peep in tomorrow.

hunkermunker Mon 22-Jun-09 16:58:05

I was thinking about this the other day and I got increasingly angry.

I think the thing I object to so much about the sort of television Daisy makes is that it's very much in the "pander to the thickies" vein.

It goes something like this:

Opening credits.
Here's what we're going to talk about.
Talk about it/with examples.
Sum up what you've talked about.
Coming up after the break.

Before the break, you saw...
In this bit, we're going to talk about...
Talk about it/with examples.
Sum up what you've talked about.
Coming up after the break.

Before the break, you saw...
In this bit, we're going to talk about...
Talk about it/with examples.
Sum up what you've talked about.
Coming up after the break.

Before the break, you saw...
In this bit, we're going to talk about...
Talk about it/with examples.
Sum up what you've talked about.
Who won?

And, you know what, that's so utterly lazy and formulaic - what's challenging or groundbreaking about that? There's not even much TV required - it's all rehashed bits from the other segments, with an arch voiceover telling us who to snigger at loudest or be most appalled by or whatever.

It's slightly better on the BBC, because they don't have adverts and the narrative flows better, but there's still scads of recapping and not a great deal of substance.

And breastfeeding's just such an easy target in all this - as Sophable says, there's not many people standing up for the women who want to breastfeed, or the babies who want to be breastfed - it's all "oh, fgs, just give him a bottle" to women who are having a hard time (from health professionals, often, from friends and family, often) - seriously, Daisy, the "lactivists" aren't in the majority here - yet they're the ones you want to have a dig at, using your privileged media platform?

What is it about you that you feel so disturbed and challenged by women wanting to help other women to breastfeed?

And why can't you make a decent, well-informed programme that sheds some light on the racket that is formula promotion? Have you read Politics Of Breastfeeding? Or is it just hippy propaganda?

smellen Mon 22-Jun-09 16:59:01

Seriously, having had a quick read of a couple of DG articles other posters have linked to, it is a shame she has chosen, for the purposes of her argument (i.e. that women are horrible to each other) to highlight the minority of unsupportive, judgemental comments that are occasionally posted on threads, BF and otherwise.

I have usually found MN to be a great support, struggled with the early months of BFing (twice), and got through it with the excellent advice and links posted herein. The solidarity, warmth and support offered to women in abusive relationships is also amazing on MN.

Perhaps print and broadcast media are a bit threatened by the rise of websites like MN - free, impartial (as opposed to advertorial stuff) information written by women for women. We're all journalists now...

LupusinaLlamasuit Mon 22-Jun-09 17:00:20

sad No, no-one on MN has made me cry.

I do understand why people get upset at the feeding threads. But there is a kind of assumption that those who support BF are attacking those who choose not to. Or who end up feeling they cannot carry on, which is the most common reason for not doing. And so much stuff is read into what people write on there it is difficult to pick out what is really being said.

I have spent a lot of time on the BF threads. I rarely see people who have had to give up BF, or who have chosen not to, actually attacked or unsupported. On the other hand, I have seen people who point out research on BF, current best practice, suggestions for carrying on instead of not doing etc attacked frequently, called names such as BF gestapo, nazis, lactivists, hippies, on a regular basis.

smellen Mon 22-Jun-09 17:07:39

Thinking about it - it's just sad that she didn't choose to put a different spin on her article: that grassroots women can and do support each other. Would have been as easy, if not easier, to find evidence of that trend on MN and other sites.

But perhaps, less appetising to an arguably misogynistic institution like the Daily Mail.

hunkermunker Mon 22-Jun-09 17:09:21

LupusinaLlamasuit, you are right - a lot of what is heard in posts isn't actually written, it's what the poster assumes is being said, when nothing could be further from the truth.

I had it once, when I was very clearly slating formula manufacturers for their practices and someone came on and said words to the effect of "Oh, I know you loathe formula and think it's evil" - which wasn't what I said, nor what any bit of me thinks - but what can you do when somebody chooses to ascribe beliefs to you?

Swedes Mon 22-Jun-09 17:26:30

HUnker - I've heard people on MN threads describe a ff mother as feeding her baby shit. Nice.

hunkermunker Mon 22-Jun-09 17:34:20

That's outrageous and unkind, Swedes - and untrue - and I do hope you're not implying that I said or believe anything of the kind?

Doobydoo Mon 22-Jun-09 18:36:54

The Daily Mailhmm
Who requested invite?
Tons of fabbo stuff on Mumsnet.
Weird to pick the odd negative bit[unless you are a sensationalist].

Swedes Mon 22-Jun-09 18:49:28

Hunker - I agree it's outrageous and unkind, but it is true - it's probably still in the archives.

hunkermunker Mon 22-Jun-09 18:56:46

So that one statement by a moron negates the swathes of supportive, well-informed posts that people take the time to write? And I wonder - was that one statement was shouted down by rafts of other people? The handful of times I've seen unpleasantness directed at women who've ff, it's generally squashed pretty quickly. I've done a lot of the squashing myself!

FrannyandZooey Mon 22-Jun-09 19:47:39

omg just read this and went utterly clammy at point it was suggested i lead chief inquisition
very flattered but aitch you have me bang to rights
good luck tomorrow ladies i won't be here but will read afterwards

AbricotsSecs Mon 22-Jun-09 20:06:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

morningpaper Mon 22-Jun-09 20:40:50

No one's ever made me cry on Mumsnet

I have made MYSELF cry several times when I've been an insensitive prick though

sorry to all I have offended (i.e. most people)

AbricotsSecs Mon 22-Jun-09 20:58:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sophable Mon 22-Jun-09 21:37:21

fantastic post hunker. i wonder, are you going to address the last two questions daisy?

sophable Mon 22-Jun-09 21:39:41

swedes is it really mners that have made you cry?

you're an intelligent lovely woman. you know that anyone that gets at you for not being able to breastfeed (i'm assuming this is why) is a total prick right?

it is mners or is it something in you that is very sensitised to this subject?

i ask that with the utmost respect (and affection) for you as a poster btw.

LupusinaLlamasuit Mon 22-Jun-09 22:15:32

See. Look. Daisy. Not trying to be all self-centred here, but here's a typical recent Lupus post, in between debating the finer points of the problem of theodicy and whether people working at home can think with their shoes off:


I feel for you as we are just coming out (hopeful emoticon) of another 3-4 month period of constant illness in our 3 kids, though it is our middle child who causes the most worry. We finally insisted on a hospital check up when it got too ridiculous and they did a full blood test which turned up nothing. They don't like doing it on little kids but it put our minds at rest. They did suggest he had asthma and has been on steroid inhalers since. Not relevant to your situation but the underlying condition being more manageable has perhaps led to fewer chesty coughs and tiredness and therefore less general unwellness.

So I second others' views about getting the diarrhoea fully checked out again. Go back to the GP and ask for a full review of what it could be a symptom of? Ask to be referred on?

But should also say, it has been like this with all my kids in the first year/18m of nursery. They have to get these things to build up an immune system (and kids immune systems don't work very well until they're a bit older) and some kids - yours and mine - get things relentlessly.

FWIW DS1, now 10 was off seemingly every other week, and now has the consitution of a horse.

I'd check out the bowel thing again, get some extra hours of help to cover the work things, and a bit of moral support for you. It is really, really hard and draining. I speak from experience - have nearly gone nuts 3 times this year since returning from Mat Leave. You've gotta throw your hands up and give in and sleep when you can, but so hard to manage with work. Is your DH back soon? Can he be? Does he understand how difficult it is for you to keep all these balls in the air on your own?

Hope you get a break soon

MARGOsBeenDrinkingTea Mon 22-Jun-09 22:26:39

Daisy - I've a few tips to share with you to make MN more enjoyable...

1. You can hide topics

2. You can hide threads

3. Have a glass of wine before reading

4.have a read of this before you post to cheer yourself up

AitchTwoOh Mon 22-Jun-09 22:29:59

the formula = shit thing comes from a very ill-tempered thread that ran to the thousand where moondog linked to an ecologist article that claimed formula was essentially junk food for babies.

she used the work junk in the title and a lot of people, myself included, were very offended. she took a tremendous kicking over it as i recall and she and i had A Big Discussion, raw as i was from my recent bfing uselessness.

of course i see now that while her thread title wasn't the most considered, she had every right to quote from the piece. but at the time it was painful to read. doesn't alter the facts, though, that formula (while it was a blooming godsend for both my dds) isn't as good as bm and that we don't know anything about how it's produced, what's in it, or why it costs so much.

only one person on here has made me cry, ever, and it was momentary and because she was being a solid gold bitch. she has gone elsewhere now, thank goodness. wink i think if people are making you cry on the internet then it's probably time to take a break, tbh.

LupusinaLlamasuit Mon 22-Jun-09 22:37:47

Here's a really typical example of a BF thread going pearshaped with a really clever, wonderful person called Wilf posting an awful lot, even if she is being a teeny tiny bit patronising.

Anyhow, point is, this is what happens. We think we're engaged in the argy bargy of reasoned debate, throwing facts around and citing Proper Research and Vast Experience (in Tiktok and others' case - not, ahem, Wilf's). And the words Nazi, militant, preaching etc get used by those objecting to the cases being put.

I find it very difficult on that whole thread to find an instance of someone being horrible about FF. Some of us them are rather cutting in our patronising rapier wit. But only under extreme provocation after banging heads on wall trying not to have our comments taken out of context or misinterpreted or labelled with all kinds of projected nonsense.

Is this the BF gestapo you mean DG? Really?

LupusinaLlamasuit Mon 22-Jun-09 22:40:17

Anyway. Proper latenight work calls. I absolutely admire you for coming to MN to have the discussion. Would far rather an intelligent bird like you came and joined us instead of slagging us off.

LupusinaLlamasuit Mon 22-Jun-09 22:41:37

btw Aitch, I do hope you will be asking some questions tomorrow, because I think you will do a fantastic job.

AitchTwoOh Mon 22-Jun-09 22:45:12

why thank you. i do miss that poster, that wilfsell fella. totally agree btw that dg is bright and better on here than off. also salute the balls etc. grin

Swedes Mon 22-Jun-09 23:18:47

Aitch - The formula shit thread to which you refer isn't the one I have in mind - I suspect there are many. And btw the tears were about 2 years ago. I've learnt to navigate Mumsnet better and hide topics.

Does anyone remember the Mumsnet thread in response to India Knight's Sunday Times article about fundamentalist breastfeeders? IK got a Mumsnet duffing over that was really ugly.

<presses Jo Malone fragranced notelet into sophable's hand expressing thanks and mutual admiration>

Lupus - You are always kind and helpful.

LackaDAISYcal Tue 23-Jun-09 11:48:26

it's a bit quiet here for an impending I missing something going on elsewhere or is there some kind of boycott going on? or has she chickened out realised she has some long planned, but forgotten prior commitment?

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 11:58:40 is a bit quiet. I can certainly chuck in a Q or two just to be polite and get the thing going if neeeded

madwomanintheattic Tue 23-Jun-09 12:07:11

? where is everyone?
has there been a gf-type banning of mention or have i missed something...
<goes off to search for sticky>

madwomanintheattic Tue 23-Jun-09 12:08:13

ah. 1pm.

scrappydappydoo Tue 23-Jun-09 12:29:50

I have a question - what do you think is the role of the media in britains society? What responsibilties do you think you have as someone who works in the industry?
I'm thinking in the context of what you hope to achieve from your tv programmes and newspaper columns (sorry that sounds aggressive - its not meant to be but I couldn't think of another way to put it!)

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 12:46:51

I would like to ask if Daisy appreciates concerns about using someone else's tragedy to make a general point in a column - I'm thinking about the poor woman who died after falling from a building in New York (inquest left it open - it might or might not have been suicide). Daisy read that this mother had the day previously called in the services of a lactation consultant. On that basis Daisy made assumptions that this mother had been under so much pressure to breastfeed she killed herself, and from that, castigated people like me (breastfeeding counsellors) for making women feel terrible if they were struggling to breastfeed.

I wonder if she knows how breastfeeding counsellors work?

GeraldineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 23-Jun-09 12:54:11

Hi, Daisy's just logging in and will be here shortly.

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 12:59:21

I would like to ask Daisy why she included the Truby King method of parenting in her programme, as this style of parenting and that of Claire Verity was virtually unheard of until her programme was aired ?
Also the reputation of Claire Verity and probably her career was destroyed by the programme, does she take any responsibilty for this ?

Daisy - does it take a village to raise a child?

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 12:59:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 13:04:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 13:06:00

On the Channel 4 website forums during the time the programme was being aired, one of the parents who participated in the programme posted a message saying that she received no emotional support from the programme makers. Her message was deleted, can you confirm whether the parents on the programme received proper counselling, and is it true that they all had to sign an agreement that they would not discuss the programme with the media ?

GeraldineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 23-Jun-09 13:06:23

thanks, phono, have changed

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 13:06:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

<settles in>
Hello Daisy. If things get quiet, I'll ask a nice easy poetry question for you. But I suspect you may be busy for a while...

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:07:36

Hoochie - plenty of Qs to keep her busy without me adding another one

how long does it take her to log on?

Come on admit - she's hiding in a cupboard isn't she?

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:08:15

funny - ooh, yes, what rhymes with 'orange'???


tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:08:38

<twiddles fingers>

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 13:09:22

would anybody like a cup of tea?

Squidward Tue 23-Jun-09 13:09:58

just reboot it daisy

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 13:11:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:11:16

Milk, no sugar, MP.

<twiddles toes>

Ah, yes the immortal orange question. That's waht we're all here for...

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 13:12:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

She's done a Goldsmith hasn't she?

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 23-Jun-09 13:13:34

We're hoping Daisy will be on any minute - struggling to raise her on the phone at the moment but we have spoken to her this morning and she's definitely coming!

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:14:23

OK....thanks, Justine

She's definately done a bunk I think Justine!

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 13:15:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 13:15:15

Hello Mumsnetters,
Sorry to be tardy but had 18 year old daughter sobbing on the phone about her coursework mark. if anyone can suggest a way of teaching your child to deal with disappointment I would be grateful.

In reply to Priyag and her question about Truby King and Claire Verity. The aim of Bringing up Baby was to show that there childcare is not an exact science and that there are different methods which have been fashionable at different times.

When I had my first baby 18 years ago, the prevailing orthodoxy was led by penelope Leach and Dr. Spock and was baby centred - an approach we featured in the show. By the time I had my second baby ten years later, there had been a move towards getting your baby into a routine cf Gina Ford which iis based on Truby King.

Meanwhile my sister and my sister in law were brining up their children according to the Continuum Concept.

I wanted to show all these mthods and to let viewers make up their own minds about which method was best for them.

As for Claire Verity, well she came highly recommended by the mothers who had used her in the past. And the parents who used her in the programme were delighted with her.

TS73 Tue 23-Jun-09 13:18:34

I think Daisy talks a lot of sense both in her columns and her television programmes. She says what everyone else is afraid to and there are many mothers out there who appreciate her candour.

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 13:18:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:19:24

Are you working through the other Qs, Daisy?

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 13:20:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Swedes Tue 23-Jun-09 13:21:40

Daisy - Welcome. Sorry to hear about your dd being upset.

Q. Have you ever posted on Mumsnet prior to just now?

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 13:22:50

In reply to Tik Tok and my article in the Daily Mail.

My point in the article was not anti breastfeeding. I was trying to say that breastfeeding is not the be and end all of mothering. Breastfeeding counsellors can be wonderful, but I don't think any woman should guilty becuase she can't breastfeed.+

when/if your daughter has a baby, would you be happy with her using Clare Verity's methods?

FischFrau Tue 23-Jun-09 13:23:51

Verity's method may well have been common in the past, but so was, say, screaming at a 4 year old and making him wear a dunces hat etc. We use our moral and ethical sense to decide that it wouldn't be a good idea to do that to a child in the interests of entertainment - why did you decide that it was a good idea to do that to a newborn baby?

monkeytrousers Tue 23-Jun-09 13:25:07

Why are women so horrible to each other?

Intrasexual competition.

The good news is women bitch about each other. Men tend to kill or maim one another. All in all I think we get the better side of that bargain.

And conflict is one side of the coin - on the other side is cooperation. One cannot exist without the other.

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:25:14

Thanks for your answer, Daisy. No one could disagree with you - breastfeeding is indeed not the be all and end all of mothering. No one should feel guilty for not bf. That was not my question

Never mind.

Forget it!

TS73 Tue 23-Jun-09 13:26:56

Aren't we all missing the point here? The issue isn't whether or not Claire Verity had qualifications, the real issue is the fact that you don't need any qualifications to be a maternity nurse!

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 13:27:36

Truby King recommended strict four hourly feeding as did Claire Verity. On the programme Claire Verity forced babies to go without food in order to get them going four hourly, she also dropped the 10pm feed at 12 weeks in order to force them to sleep twelve hours without a feed. Gina Ford does not recommend four hourly feeding until babies are nearly four months, and says babies still need a late feed until weaning is established at six months. Why do you not research these facts properly, before you make statements that are totally untrue ?

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 13:28:30

in reply to Rose of the Orient
if my daughter ever has a baby, and right now she says not, I hope I would support her in whatever method she chose to use. She would be the mother after all.

those os you who watched BUB will remember that Claire Verity@s routine method was one of three methods shown. In my own immediate family we have practised all three:
I am a wishy washy Spock mother
My youngest sister has a strict routien
and mymiddle sister and sister in law are full on co sleeping breastfeeding Continuum concepts.
all the kids are fine!

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:28:38

TS73 - CV lied about her quals. That is an issue. Being deceitful is not a good sign in someone making a living out of taking sole charge of an infant.

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 13:28:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 13:30:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 13:31:15

TS73 - Channel 4 employed Verity and allowed her to experiment on newborns without checking her qualifications. Most people know that "maternity nurse" is meaningless, in fact this is why the Nursing and Midwifery Council objected to Channel 4/Verity referring to herself with that title (and resulted in her dropping it).

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 13:31:30

No, the real issue is the commodification of babies and children, and their transformation into entertainment.

It's fischFrau btw.

I work/worked in television, and pitched to the same person that Daisy would have pitched that series to. I understand very well the pressure to get a commission at anyc cost, and the subtle pressures to push the line of extremity to its limit.

There was a rash of childcare/problem child commissions. After the fifth, you're running out of territory to cover. I understand.

But this really did border on the abusive.

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 13:32:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 13:33:59

and 'the children are fine' is a really lame answer.

You are an intelligent woman. You must be aware that the effects of a damaged childhood will not necessarily be visible for years to come.

slug Tue 23-Jun-09 13:34:22

Hi Daisy

You write for the Daily Mail. Do you see a paradox in writing about woman's issues in this women hating publication?

AnarchyAunt Tue 23-Jun-09 13:35:25

Claire Veity went beyond having a 'strict routine' though.

Can you see why her methods disturbed people? I believe even Gina Ford, who does advocate routine, was appalled at the treatment meted out to those unconsenting babies.

Refusing to cuddle them or look at them is nothing to do with 'routine' and everything to do with callous control. Not healthy at all for a baby.

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 13:35:29

"As for Claire Verity, well she came highly recommended by the mothers who had used her in the past. And the parents who used her in the programme were delighted with her."

Why did you use Claire Verity who no one had heard of, instead of Jo Tantum, Jo Frost or Gina Ford who have all written books about routine based methods that are used today ?

Why do you feel tha because all the parents were delighted with Claire Verity, it gives you the right to produce a programme that many said was tantamount to child abuse ?

Merrylegs Tue 23-Jun-09 13:35:48

Oh, I thought tiktok's question was really interesting. I wish you had answered it, Daisy. I am always interested to know the motivation behind the polemic articles in these columns. Are you thinking of the mortgage payments, or do you really believe in what you are saying?

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 13:36:17

In reply to the comment about maternity nurses. They don't have to have a qualification, but they do need good references. As I said before, we spoke to four mothers who had used her and were very happy with her.
The mothers who used her in the show both wanted a routine for their babies, one had twins and the other had had real problems the first time. Bothe parents were happy with results .

I think there are as many concerns about co sleeping as there are about leaving a baby unattended in a cot, but this has not been a subject for debate.

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:37:02

I think it's worth reminding people that Silver River got several emails from NCT and other agencies and NGOs - several - expressing serious reservations about the concept, from an infant wellbeing point of view, before any filming was done. NCT declined to take part for that reason. Silver River were warned of the possible harm that could be done.

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 13:37:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 13:37:32

"...there had been a move towards getting your baby into a routine cf Gina Ford which is based on Truby King"

I should point out that Gina Ford would probably be rather horrified by this. Verity's methods were based on King's but Ford's are not. They may have some things in common but Ford is not trying to re-package King for modern mothers!

And it is worth noting that Ford described Verity's methods as "child abuse" in an open letter to the NSPCC. This shows that the spectrum shown on BUB was really NOT a good reflection of current childcare practice, if we are claiming that Ford's methods are at one end of that spectrum. Verity's methods were way off the scale.

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 13:38:54

In reply to the people who are using the term 'child abuse' in relation to BUB. I think you should consider the way you use that term.

monkeytrousers Tue 23-Jun-09 13:39:42

Not been a subject for debate?

This place would make a very good docu - and it has tons of

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 13:40:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ahundredtimes Tue 23-Jun-09 13:41:15

Yes loads of interesting questions here. I thought tiktoks was good too. I don't think that article did say - women who can't breastfeed should be supported.

Nobody would deny that. Certainly not on MN!

The article suggested that not being able to breastfeed forced one woman to kill herself. And from there you extrapolated a whole argument. Was a bit weak no?

Without any suggestion that this might not in fact have been the WHOLE truth.

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:41:16

References from mothers are important, but so is the integrity and honesty of the person offering her 'methods'...someone who lies about their qualifications cannot be suitable, surely? Did you not regret this, Daisy?

I might add that CV also told a Sunday newspaper how she s***d Mick Jagger on the kitchen counter, when employed as a nanny to look after Gabriel, when Jerry was in the next room. Would this not have been relevant to her qualifications?

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 13:42:25

in reply to Slug:
Is the Daily Mail woman hating? I can't decide. It certainly has more coverage of feamle issues than any other newspaper.

I was suprised that they published my @why are women so horrible to each other@ article but pleased as it has a big readership. I think women are very hard on each other.

sophable Tue 23-Jun-09 13:42:29

great question slug.

FabBakerGirlIsBack Tue 23-Jun-09 13:42:40


you seem very defensive.

TS73 Tue 23-Jun-09 13:43:18

Daisy - is it true that all the Mums continued with their chosen methods after the cameras stopped filming? If that's the case, presumably it proved the point that everyone is different and different methods work for different people / children?

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 13:43:34

Daisy, can you please answer the question below, did you ask any of the well known advocates of routine to be involved with the programme, if not, why ? Why bring in someone like Claire Verity who was more famous for having sex with Mick Jagger and running a night club, than her parenting methods ? Some people may feel you exploited a woman who was keen for fame, is this true ?

"Why did you use Claire Verity who no one had heard of, instead of Jo Tantum, Jo Frost or Gina Ford who have all written books about routine based methods that are used today ?"

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 13:44:01

"I think there are as many concerns about co sleeping as there are about leaving a baby unattended in a cot".

That's rather disingenuous <five points - punches air> - one can't really dismiss the differences as being between sleep-management methods..

And while there might have been questions raised about the safety of the former, but no-one has accused it being an abusive philosophy, I don't think? And unless anyone warned you that they would not take part if you showed co-sleeping, then it's not really to the point.

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:44:04

ahundredtimes, you said "The article suggested that not being able to breastfeed forced one woman to kill herself. And from there you extrapolated a whole argument. Was a bit weak no?"

It was worse than that. She suggested that it wasn't just this mother's (presumed) wish to breastfeed that caused her death, but 'pressure to breastfeed' by other people evidence at all for either, by the way.

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 13:44:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sophable Tue 23-Jun-09 13:45:40


I'm not sure that repeating a summary of BUB constitutes a "web chat"....hmm

Rhubarb Tue 23-Jun-09 13:46:24

Let's face it, the TV series was meant to be controversial because that is what pulled in the viewers.

Same with the DM article. We're still talking about it today, which is what she wanted, right Daisy?

Journalists know which buttons to press, and often no publicity is bad publicity. She knew the series would cause a stink, that's why they did it. There is no real concern for the participants of that programme.

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:46:40

To be fair to Daisy, I think it's likely Silver River did ask other 'routine fans' to be involved. But they may have declined or not been quite what the production team was looking for. They will have selected CV, I think.

Squidward Tue 23-Jun-09 13:46:42

who was it that she shagged though old verity = some ageing rock star

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 13:46:54

in reply to a hundred times
sorry I am being slow to reply but you are all asking some pretty fierce question and to respond adequately takes a bit of time.

I do regret using that poor woman's death as a peg, but I don't regret questioning the idea that breastfeeding is all important.
I think breastfeeding counsellors can be really helpful but somewomen just can't get it to work.

TS73 Tue 23-Jun-09 13:47:14

Thanks Phono. Pleased to be here. I like a bit of healthy debate. Debate good, hysteria bad.

that's because we are feisty and fierce Daisy!

But fobbing people off with an airy wave of the hand isn't really a frank and full discussion is it? You must have known what you were letting yourself in for, surely?

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 13:49:37

"more coverage of feamle issues"

Well, I'm not sure I'd agree with you. It certainly covers more issues which reinforce a certain way of thinking about what women should be. Usually by blaming them in one way or another. Or salutary tales.

Yes, the DM certainly specializes in salutary tales which warn of the bad things that will happen to you if you work/have babies/don't work/don't have babies.

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 13:49:49

When a baby of twelve weeks has a night milk feed replaced with baby rice, that is certainly child abuse, as the baby is being denied real food for no other reason than to force it to sleep 12 hours. Why did the programme not make clear the guidelines as recommended by the WhO ?

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 13:49:53

> In reply to the people who are using the term 'child abuse' in relation to BUB. I think you should consider the way you use that term.

The term was used by Gina Ford in her letter to the NSPCC about BUB Ford, who you claim is illustrative of the end of the spectrum that Verity was hired to represent...?

"I think there are as many concerns about co sleeping as there are about leaving a baby unattended in a cot, but this has not been a subject for debate"

you're kidding, right? you are saying that co-sleeping is not a subject for debate in Western society???

It is certainly not a subject for debate in Japan, where I live, because everyone does it...

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 13:50:33
AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 13:50:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

yappybluedog Tue 23-Jun-09 13:51:02

c'mon Diasy, fight your corner

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 13:51:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 13:51:12

In reply to TS73

All the mothers in the show did continue with their chosen methods after we stopped filming. They all thought the experience was positive.

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 13:51:27

Daisy, I am really pleased to hear you say you regret using the mother's death as a peg. Without outing myself, I have been close to this issue in my own circle (young woman's suicide) and it pressed buttons with me that real family's tragedy was used in this way. I repeat, no one disagrees about the breastfeeding thing, and I am glad you now realise this was a horrible way to make a point. Thanks again for acknowledging this.

yappybluedog Tue 23-Jun-09 13:51:30

or just answer a few questions.........

hellzapoppin Tue 23-Jun-09 13:51:50

Hello Daisy,

In the days before you were the Head Girl of your own company- who was the best boss you worked for and why?

What kind of manager to you try to be and what's your stance on part time/flexible working in your company?

Pinkjenny Tue 23-Jun-09 13:52:02

Daisy - why do you seem to dislike Mumsnet so much? I gave up breastfeeding after one day, but I have never been made to feel inferior on Mumsnet, and I have been here for three years now. I just choose not to participate in the breast/formula feeding sections of the forum. Surely the extreme views of some do not typify an entire community of people who support each other in both happy and horrendous times? Just because someone doesn't agree with my choices, it doesn't mean that all women hate each other! I am have the presence of mind to stand up for myself, as are the majority of the people who use this site.

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 13:52:11

can you please answer Tiktok's question below ?

"To be fair to Daisy, I think it's likely Silver River did ask other 'routine fans' to be involved."

Rhubarb Tue 23-Jun-09 13:52:14

<discovers new-found respect for Gina Ford>

sophable Tue 23-Jun-09 13:52:33

[faints at discovering the same as rhubarb]

ahundredtimes Tue 23-Jun-09 13:52:42

Thanks Daisy. Good answer, and honest. Yes, I agree but not sure it's quite as grim out there in the ff world as you suggested. But I have both bf and ff, so perhaps have spread the risk!

Rhubarb Tue 23-Jun-09 13:53:27

<faints when she discovers Sophable has fainted!>

Merrylegs Tue 23-Jun-09 13:53:47

Why are you surprised the DM published the 'why are women so horrible to each other' article?

Men really dig chicks fighting, didn't ya know? hmm

Oh, and about that. In real life, women aren't actually that 'horrible' to each other. For the most part they are very supportive. But citing an internet forum (where anyone can vent under assurance of anonymity) as evidence of women being horrible to each other is a bit weak methinks.

(Hey, I could be a man for all you know.)

Pinkjenny Tue 23-Jun-09 13:54:07

I cannot guarantee that I can construct a sentence, however.

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 13:55:15

Okay, can I ask a question.

My own experience of being in TV is that, despite the fact that the number of women in positions of power is relatively high, it is very difficult for women on the creative side to continue working with babies/children because the culture is one of long and unpredictable hours and you stay in the editsuite till it's done.
What do you think? Is it somehting you're addressing at SRiver?

sophable Tue 23-Jun-09 13:56:06

ok so we've established that both the programme and the article were, hmm, not entirely fair or even ethical?

what else you working on? any chance of learning the lessons of the dangers inherent in sensationalist extrapolation?

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 13:56:46

I hate to nag, but can I ask my question again (sorry if I seem really rude):

"In the series you seem to have employed Claire Verity, a woman who stated: "I can't understand why anybody wants to cuddle a baby or pick a baby up: a baby doesn't want to be touched all the time. All they want is to be left alone to grow" and: "Once he's got eye contact, he knows he's in charge."

You stuck by the series when the NSPCC and the National Childbirth Trust asked for the series not to be commissioned; when FSID declared her methods to risk infants' lives; when she was banned from the baby show at Earl's Court; when the NSPCC said that these methods were 'outdated and potentially harmful'; when her methods were condemned by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health; when the Nursing and Midwifery Council claimed Verity was 'deceptive'; when the show was only broadcast in Australia after a health warning of risk to babies preceded it; when Ofcom received nearly 1,000 complaints. When you allowed mothers of newborns to be filmed weeping with the pain of it all while they carried out Verity's instructions.

You did all of this without verifying her qualifications, which unfortunately only run to part-owning a nightclub and running a chocolate shop.

In the light of all this, how do you wish you had done things differently?"

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 13:56:55

can you please answer Tiktok's question below ?

"To be fair to Daisy, I think it's likely Silver River did ask other 'routine fans' to be involved."

Gosh its a very slow connection isn't it? Shall we play i-Spy ?

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 13:57:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 13:57:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 13:58:36

In reply to Pinks Jenny

I don't dislike MUmsnet at all. I can see that it is a brilliant resource for new mothers. What I object to is the way that some of the mumsnet posters use their anonymity to say whatever they like. I suppose I can't object to people being rude about me ( although being only human I do cringe a bit) but when I am writing an article I put my name to it, and it has to be read and legalled by whoever publishes it.
On MUmsnet anyone can say whatever they want, and assert whatever they like

ahundredtimes Tue 23-Jun-09 13:59:06

Well it must be a bit overwhelming I'd have thought. Give her a minute.

Phono, I don't think she's addressed anything!

FabBakerGirlIsBack Tue 23-Jun-09 13:59:17

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Rhubarb Tue 23-Jun-09 13:59:32

Answer MP's concerns.

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 13:59:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FabBakerGirlIsBack Tue 23-Jun-09 14:00:21

not completely, Daisy.

threads are deleted when necessary.

GeraldineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 23-Jun-09 14:00:25

Quick reminder that this webchat is nearly out of time. thanks to Daisy for coming on; thanks to everyone who asked questions.

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 14:01:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.


Rhubarb Tue 23-Jun-09 14:01:21

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

FabBakerGirlIsBack Tue 23-Jun-09 14:01:32

why have you deleted my post? shock

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 14:01:34

Did you or did you not ask other "routine fans" to be involved, such as Jo Tantum, Gina Ford or Jo Frost - whu Claire Verity who no one had heard of ?

"To be fair to Daisy, I think it's likely Silver River did ask other 'routine fans' to be involved."

<points politely to mp's question>
Answer that and I WILL ask you a nice poetry question. Honest.

yappybluedog Tue 23-Jun-09 14:01:48

so very disappointing

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 14:01:53

"some of the mumsnet posters use their anonymity to say whatever they like" - this has its downsides, for sure....and the upside of anonymity is that people can share without revealing, too.

Welcome to the internet.

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 14:01:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Yes Daisy, but you get paid for your articles...

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 14:02:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:02:39

In reply to Morning Paper

What can I say? You find CV's methods cruel and inhuman, the mothers in the show were happy to have her help her with their children. Mothers of newborns do weep, I certainly did.
The show was vetted by a paediatrician and a child psychioligst before we started filming and after we made the show. They were happy with the show

Snorbs Tue 23-Jun-09 14:03:14

Crikey. She was a slow typist for someone who's a journo, wasn't she? Must take her ages to write her articles...

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 23-Jun-09 14:03:19

Hang on we'll see if Daisy can stay a bit longer as it was a late start and we've not covered much ground... or if not whether she can come back...

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 14:03:36

Well they can't assert whatever they like, really. It doesn't get pre-moderated, but it's subject to the same legal constraints as any medium. Wasn't there a famous legal wrangle..


But I take your point. The benefits of anonymity are also huuuge though, for anxious and demoralized women who are finding life hard.

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 14:03:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sophable Tue 23-Jun-09 14:04:15

errr. what webchat? she posted 9 times. mostly not to answer questions.

FabBakerGirlIsBack Tue 23-Jun-09 14:04:27

I ask again, why was my post deleted?

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 14:04:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pinkjenny Tue 23-Jun-09 14:05:10

Maybe she was treating us with the contempt we apparently deserve.

Merrylegs Tue 23-Jun-09 14:05:14

Daisy, Daisy
Give us your answers, do...

(Oh come on, you know you were all thinking it...)

PS my DD is called Daisy. Lovely name.

PPS It's all v. passive/aggressive here grin

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 14:05:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 23-Jun-09 14:05:31

It was deleted because it was rude FBG.

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 14:05:39

"The show was vetted by a paediatrician and a child psychioligst before we started filming and after we made the show. They were happy with the show"

Hmm. But the NCT et al were quite definitely not.

Since the stakes were so VERY high - a child's emotional safety at stake - do you in hindsight wish that you had listened to those other voices, rather than your paid consultants?

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 14:06:00

> The show was vetted by a paediatrician and a child psychioligst before we started filming and after we made the show. They were happy with the show.

Could tell us who they were?

hellzapoppin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:06:12

Well OneBat - we'll never know whether it's worth pinging the CV over to Silver River now grin

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 14:06:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

suwoo Tue 23-Jun-09 14:06:48

Well, that went well hmm

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 14:06:55

onebat: It was widely reported that the NSPCC and the NCT asked Channel 4 not to commission the programme.

Rhubarb Tue 23-Jun-09 14:07:23


So you basically ignored the advice of nearly every other professional body and chose a paediatrician and psychologist who were happy to fit in with your criteria. Must have taken you ages to find them, I wonder how much you had to pay them?

Still, it all makes entertaining viewing eh? Watching as mothers weep, listening to the hungry cries of newborns, witnessing small babies being deprived of physical contact, being starved and having their demonic little powers forced out of them by intelligent adults. Oooh yes, bloody good viewing that! Wonder how much it netted you?

ahundredtimes Tue 23-Jun-09 14:07:38

It's a good point Daisy - and is regularly discussed on here actually. In my experience, the self-regulation rule works, and poster's who are exceptionally mean or aggressive or disrespectful or rude - are usually told not to be.

but tis the internet.

And you do need a hard hat.

Tina Fey told a really funny joke once when she collected an award, she said something like, 'I won't let this go to my head, anyone here who thinks they're really something - there's this place called the internet. And everyone there really HATES YOU.' grin

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 14:07:42



I already did that. I mentioned my circs. Got no reply... grin grin

Ach well.

GeraldineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 23-Jun-09 14:08:06

Daisy's going to stick around for a bit longer because of slightly late start.

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 14:08:27

Did you or did you not ask other "routine fans" to be involved, such as Jo Tantum, Gina Ford or Jo Frost - why Claire Verity who no one had heard of ?

"To be fair to Daisy, I think it's likely Silver River did ask other 'routine fans' to be involved."

FabBakerGirlIsBack Tue 23-Jun-09 14:08:55


Well, I never did.


I really object to that as it wasn't rude at all imo.

DebiNewberry Tue 23-Jun-09 14:09:04

priyag goes paxo

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 14:09:10

(Onebat, maybe add a few extra qualifations? I don't think they routintely check CVs)

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 14:09:38

MP - that's what my post says isn't it?

the nct et al were most definitely not [happy].

Perhaps confusing bcs contracted..

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:09:56

One more thing about Bringing Up BAby:
Those of you who watched the show will remember that all the points you are raising today were aired and debated by the advocates in the show.

CV's methods were attacked by the Spock champion and the Continuum Concept champion.

I think that debate made it pretty clear what the downsides of her methods are.

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 14:10:19

MP - the paediatrician was named, I think, at the time. I won't name him here because of what I am going to say about him, but his name will be buried in the interwebs somewhere. He is known as a bit of a maverick, happy to be non-collegial, and more than happy (if you get me) to go against his own professional body (Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health) who were very concerned indeed about BUB and who wrote to Silver River and everywhere else to say so.

I have that assessment of him from a trusted source at the RCPCH.

I cant recall who the child psych. was.

"I don't dislike MUmsnet at all. I can see that it is a brilliant resource for new mothers. What I object to is the way that some of the mumsnet posters use their anonymity to say whatever they like"

Am I missing something here? Why on earth shouldn't people be able to say anything they like on a public forum? Or do we have to follow a party line on things?

One of the great joys (as well as frustrations at times!) is that there are so many different points of view.

Since you're staying around (even though I'm not sure you've totally answered the question about whether in hindsight the chorus of disapproval outweighed your '2 expert' panel ....)

<nice poetry question alert>
What are is favourite poem for children, and why?

How irritating of us not to agree with a journo for the Daily Mail.

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 14:12:05

It was .. erm.. personally addressed, MP grin

Squidward Tue 23-Jun-09 14:12:21

oh god are you all baying and being embarassing?;)

Rhubarb Tue 23-Jun-09 14:12:40

I wonder if the parents involved in BUB knew of the controversies surrounding the practices they were following? After all, these were vulnerable people who were under the guidance of someone, they thought, was highly qualified and knew best. Did they get to hear the other side of the coin?

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 14:12:51

I have asked this question three times now, can you please answer ?

Did you or did you not ask other "routine fans" to be involved, such as Jo Tantum, Gina Ford or Jo Frost - why Claire Verity who no one had heard of ?

"To be fair to Daisy, I think it's likely Silver River did ask other 'routine fans' to be involved."

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 14:13:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 14:13:59

It's good you're still here, Daisy

I think debate is one thing, and some of the concerns were debated on the programme, you are right (though not very, ahem, vigorously or rigorously, but that's telly, I suppose). The more important thing is that there were real babies who were being treated in a truly unkind and potentially harmful way. For the sake of entertainment.

Debate is harmless. The treatment of those babies was not.

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:14:05

In reply to onebat:

I think tv can be tough for mothers with young kids. I went back to work when my oldest was five months and I took her with me when I went filming, but it was really hard.
But I would always rather employ a mother because I know they will be grown up and time conscious. I don't think anyone should stay late in an edit suite, parent or not.

TS73 Tue 23-Jun-09 14:14:06

Agree with funnypeculiar - I'd also like to know what your favourite poem for children is....

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 14:14:25

Oh good, just seen you're still here Daisy?

I would be genuinely interested in the TV women question if you had something to say. I think it's quite a complex issue.

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 14:14:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 14:16:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FabBakerGirlIsBack Tue 23-Jun-09 14:16:55

Curious to see what will be in the paper tomorrow.

Merrylegs Tue 23-Jun-09 14:17:21

Who do you think was to blame - Katie or Peter?

yappybluedog Tue 23-Jun-09 14:17:32

actually, you have very lovely hair, Daisy

TS, have you been here long, dear?

anastaisia Tue 23-Jun-09 14:17:54


Totally changing the subject - the piece you wrote on home education for The Times on the 14th June was very positive and most of the home educators I know where really pleased to see it balancing out some of the other articles in the same paper. Are you planning to write anything more on the Badman Review?

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 14:17:55

Daisy, did you select CV from a range of possible people, who were either not suitable or who declined to take part?

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:17:56

in reply to Priyag:
We did ask Gina ford, as far as I can remember , she didn't want to appear on tv.
Jo Frost was under contract to another company

AbricotsSecs Tue 23-Jun-09 14:17:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 14:18:33

I have asked this question FOUR times now, can you please answer ?

Did you or did you not ask other "routine fans" to be involved, such as Jo Tantum, Gina Ford or Jo Frost - why Claire Verity who no one had heard of ?

"To be fair to Daisy, I think it's likely Silver River did ask other 'routine fans' to be involved."

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 14:18:54

Well, my experience has been that that sentiment - don't stay late etc - is one that senior people like to express before the going gets tough. As it inevitably does, with shrinking budgets, 3 week edits etc. Someone has to do it, and it's usually the director, not the senior person. That is what makes it hard.

Though I will happily send my CV in again..grin

Rhubarb Tue 23-Jun-09 14:19:34

If you quote me, make sure you include my profile pic!

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 14:19:35

Thanks, Daisy - 'twas my Q originally about the selection of people.

I agree about your hair. envy envy indeed

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:20:28

In reply to Anastaisia

I would happily write more about Home education. I have really changed my views about this and I am feel really strongly about the Badman review. I think they should concentrate on state education and leave the home educators alone.

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 14:20:39

You DO have nice hair

But I feel very depressed that you can't say: "It went too far and that was wrong"

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 14:21:59

BTW, hair and BUB aside, I think you've done v well, getting poetry onto TV, and talked about and taken seriously again. That's an achievement.

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:22:03

I think I have just answered your question

Merrylegs Tue 23-Jun-09 14:22:04

Actually, I always get you mixed up with Claudia Winkleman. Perchance you share the same hairdresser.

AitchTwoOh Tue 23-Jun-09 14:22:34

sorry am late to this, pretty disappointing all told.

if Daisy is still here, i'd love to know her response to this question, i know it drags us back to BUB but i think that it might get a straight answer.

As a 'wishy washy Spock mother' were you personally shocked by the methods used by CV?

Swedes Tue 23-Jun-09 14:22:52

What do you think about New Labour voting for a speaker (John Bercow) because the government elect don't want him? I think Bercow is v odd.

<Wonders if John Bercow was ignored and refused eye contact as an infant?>

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 14:22:54

I agree, say this ('we went too far' )would be a good move and contribute to making babies and children safer when it comes to TV. 'Cos there have been other cringe-worthy programmes using kids as well (Baby Borrowers, for example).

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:23:25

TS73 and Funny Peculiar
My favourite children's poem is the Owl and the Pussy cat by Edward Lear

and Jim by HilaireBelloc

yappybluedog Tue 23-Jun-09 14:23:50

It must be very daunting to come here and face your critics, goes with the job I suppose

but you didn't have to, it would be good to have a proper chat about lots of things

perhaps you could join MN smile

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 14:24:00

"As far as you can remember"

in reply to Priyag:
We did ask Gina ford, as far as I can remember , she didn't want to appear on tv.

Rhubarb Tue 23-Jun-09 14:25:12

If you do join Mumsnet, may I recommend choosing the name Lavender, I think it would suit you!

We had the owl and the pussycat at our wedding - good choice grin
<attemps to end on rather unlikely happy note>

RumourOfAHurricane Tue 23-Jun-09 14:27:08

Message withdrawn

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:27:25


Well CV was pretty dogmatic. do you think anyone decided to follow her methods based on watching BUB? On the other hand I think getting your baby into a routine can be a godsend, certainly all the mothers I know who have managed it are happier/less stressed than the ones who haven't ( like me) but that is just my personal observation.

I think mothers will instinctively know what the best way to bring up their kids is - some people like to have rules, others don't.

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 14:27:52

It would be great if you could answer Morningpaper's question.

"were you personally shocked by the methods used by CV?"

AitchTwoOh Tue 23-Jun-09 14:27:57

As a 'wishy washy Spock mother' were you personally shocked by the methods used by CV?

c'mon, one wishy-washy mother to another...

and re dealing with disappoiintment, i'm sure you stroked her hair and told her she was wonderful and there would be a next time. i've no doubt you're a very capable parent, that's what made BUB all the more shocking i think. smile

anastaisia Tue 23-Jun-09 14:29:14

thanks Daisy, its nice to know that some of the people writing about home education and the review have some personal experience of home ed in their family.

There's a very active campaign about the review going on over the net and I'm sure that there are a number of families who would be willing to talk to you about it if you wanted to write something.

Have you seen the petition here:

Its only been up a few days and has over 1000 signatures already.

ahundredtimes Tue 23-Jun-09 14:29:43

Oh yes disappointment - manage their expectations.

dd: I'm going to get A star for this course work.

you: you'll have to work really hard for that!

dd: sure

you: would you be happy with a B?

anastaisia Tue 23-Jun-09 14:30:14
Merrylegs Tue 23-Jun-09 14:30:34

shineon - you're like so two thousand and late - but come here you, with your routine and your ff and your early weaning. You're blardy lovely you are.

Swedes Tue 23-Jun-09 14:31:15

Would you be happy with a B?

No, I'll only settle for an A*

<nudges ahundredtimes for her next move>

AitchTwoOh Tue 23-Jun-09 14:32:15

oh right, great, you did, thanks. grin

do you think anyone followed her methods? what feedback did you get from parents? any positives on CV?

so you see, that's my point. you personally, were you shocked? did you think what she was doing was wrong? (not wrong as in wrong for the parents, they imo were crackers). i mean wrong for the tiny babies who weren't allowed to be cuddled or have eye contact with their parents or eat on demand etc etc...

btw, the childminder lady posted on the ch4 website to say that she'd completely disobeyed CV's utterances when the cameras were off so i'm not sure if it's fair to say that they continued with the methods.

her message was deleted, naturellement.

ahundredtimes Tue 23-Jun-09 14:32:31

Well, that's the top grade! Do you think it's realistic? I don't want you to be disappointed.

RumourOfAHurricane Tue 23-Jun-09 14:33:12

Message withdrawn

AitchTwoOh Tue 23-Jun-09 14:33:22

i mean were you shocked when you saw the footage, i presume you weren't on hand for the filming, were you?

Phono Tue 23-Jun-09 14:34:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AitchTwoOh Tue 23-Jun-09 14:34:25

merrylegs the discontented pony also an excellent Ladybird Books parable about wanting greener grass...

hellzapoppin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:34:40

Daisy - As you've just lost your creative director to Diverse (a rival indie for the non telly MNers) - I have a great format idea for you- why not do JOB IDOL and employ a replacement purely from Mumsnet auditionees?

There are no end of creative people here - with some top telly ideas. Great publicity and very refreshing to have a CD without a media background....

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:35:17

I thought CV was pretty hard core yes.

BUT If I thought those babies were in danger I would not have made the show.

I think that all the shock and rage you are expressing was covered in the programme. No one could be more eloquent about the problems with #CV than the other Claire in the show who advocated the Contiuun Concept.

i am surprised that none of you were interested in the fact that we presented the Contiuum concept as a feasible lifstyle for today rather than a mad hippy thing.

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 14:35:27

It would be great if you could answer Morningpaper's question.

"were you personally shocked by the methods used by CV?"

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 14:36:08

> I think mothers will instinctively know what the best way to bring up their kids is

I sort of agree with this.... but I do think that mothers who are sobbing while they are trying to impose a certain routine are doing so because they are going against their instincts. And instincts are so important and repressing them like that is should always be challenged.

> do you think anyone decided to follow her methods based on watching BUB?

Yes. In fact I think that the twins parents were on record as saying something like 'We've told all our friends and now they are all following it!'

The programme presented an outdated childcare theory as an acceptable one, and aligned it with Ford's routine, which was rather deceptive I think.

RumourOfAHurricane Tue 23-Jun-09 14:36:26

Message withdrawn

Wittering Tue 23-Jun-09 14:36:28

Oh yes, Merrylegs the discontented pony!!! I had only remembered Merrylegs from Anna Sewell's book.

Well, you is a horse of many colours and no mistake.

Merrylegs Tue 23-Jun-09 14:37:00

No, no I am the loyal pony in Black Beauty, the one ridden roughshod by the spoilt children but who ends their days in contented clover....(And please don't get me started on Ginger or I shall just jolly well blub).

Swedes Tue 23-Jun-09 14:37:34

100x You've never had any faith in me. Most parents would be encouraging and pleased their children are aiming for the top grade, but you're never satisfied. At least if I get a B you will be pleased.

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 14:37:54

ah yes here it is:

"Now friends who initially disapproved of our decision, and who are now expecting children of their own, are clamouring to follow our lead."

RumourOfAHurricane Tue 23-Jun-09 14:37:56

Message withdrawn

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 14:38:26

priyag that was Aitch's question and Daisy answered it

bornjoyful Tue 23-Jun-09 14:38:27

thanks for the support regarding elective home education-or personalised learning as some prefer- it did not go unnoticed and there a hundreds of people able to discuss anything more you'd like to

priyag Tue 23-Jun-09 14:38:30

The tiny babies who were forced to go twelve hours without a feed, were actually put in danger as a mother how could you not see this ?

Rhubarb Tue 23-Jun-09 14:38:58

Is there an argument within this debate between 100x and swedes?

Get a room girls!

Wittering Tue 23-Jun-09 14:39:08

I never got over Ginger's death.sad

tiktok Tue 23-Jun-09 14:39:39

I think the reason people here are more worried about the CV style of babycare and less engaged with the way the Continuum Concept was presented was purely and simply because of concern for the well-being of the babies, me, 20 mths on or whatever it is, this is what stands out as memorable. Continuum Concept would not risk being harmful or distressing to the babies it was being 'done to'.

AnarchyAunt Tue 23-Jun-09 14:40:05

The 'continuum concept' as shown on BUB was a perfectly feasible lifestyle for today.

Knowing what we do now about childhood development and psychology, the importance of attachment/bonding, unrestricted BF etc, I am more amazed by the fact that Claire Verity's 'methods' were given any credence at all.

AitchTwoOh Tue 23-Jun-09 14:40:30

actually i don't agree with you there, i thought deena was a bit of a sap and that Good Clare repeatedly choked in the face of Bad Clare.

lord, DG, i'm sure you're a good woman but i think that your programme taught those parents some very twisted lessons about being a parent. i think, as you imply, that we ALL saw that. i really do think that you experimented (with the idiot parents' full consent, of course) on newborn children, which i full stop have a moral issue with, but that in using CV you moved into an area that i'm personally happy with calling abusive. i'm sure that must be hard to stomach, though, as a mother yourself. but you went too far. it's only tv, those were real children and their real idiot parents and you set them up. imo.

(as a massive aside, you do know that there aren't more calories in hungry baby formula? the proteins are just less processed. i'm afraid deena was plumb wrong there).

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 14:40:53

That's an interesting point re preesentation of the continuum thing without mockery

I think your first point, though - that someone was pre-outraged on our behalf and therefore we don't need to be - won't assuage things. The issue isn't one of Balance, but of whether one of the approaches was damaging to a baby.

I think it would have been a different thing entirely had you made an ob doc about CV. Then you would have been in a far stronge rposition I think. It's the fact Ent-ness of it that sticks in our collective craw I think

ElvisLovesEssex Tue 23-Jun-09 14:41:03

Daisy - I have just discovered a renewed interest in poetry after taking a degree in English Lit many years ago. Trouble is, my brain is not as - erm - active as it used to be. Can you recommend anything that's accessible and not too clever (but would still impress my Oxbridge friends when I quote bits?)

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 14:42:10

Yes, what tiktok said: the continuum concept is about meeting babies' needs. I don't see why it would be upsetting or controversial. Nor do I see why anyone might NOT think it's a "feasible lifstyle for today". Whereas the Verity method was not even one that EXISTED on the modern childcare spectrum.

hellzapoppin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:42:15

Miaow Elvis!

onebat Tue 23-Jun-09 14:42:44

sheeet must do work.

DaisyGoodwin Tue 23-Jun-09 14:43:19

thanks to all you for your questions. I hope I have answered at least some of them adequately.

Very pleased you like my hair, it is all my own.

I am going back to the house of teen disappointment now

morningpaper Tue 23-Jun-09 14:45:08

Good luck with teen Daisy