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Measles outbreak and MMR vaccinations: live webchat with Department of Health director of immunisation Professor David Salisbury, Tuesday 9 April, 2-3pm

(357 Posts)
GeraldineMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 08-Apr-13 16:40:39

In light of the measles outbreaks in South Wales and higher than average levels of measles in some areas of England, and concerns reflected in MNers' discussions, we've invited Professor David Salisbury, the government's director of immunisation, back to MN to be our webchat guest tomorrow, Tuesday 9 April, at 2pm.

Please post any questions you have about the MMR vaccine for your children, or yourself, to Professor Salisbury.

Thank you.

sophable Sat 27-Apr-13 15:04:52

This thread was SO predictable. So sad that the important questions weren't engaged with and that dissent stomped on, even if some reinstated later. Unbelievably frustrating.

DuelingFanjo Mon 15-Apr-13 13:18:48

vaccines are not compulsory are they? I think it's entirely up to the individual (or parent) if they vaccinate or not.

My son has had the first MMR and is not due to have his booster for another year so i guess he is at risk now until (if) he gets the booster? But then he could be at risk anyway because it's not effective?

One thing I do worry about is mumps because my son has only one testicle so I wouldn't want to compromise his fertility further. yet from what I read in this chat the Mumps vaccine is not really that good anyway?

jenna748 Mon 15-Apr-13 12:41:43

My son is 5, I spent years researching the MMR and decided that the DOH wouldn't pay vaccine damage for a vaccine that is safe. over 2000 parents are trying to get compensation, also the damage has to be 60% disablement before they will pay out. so how many more have actually tried and failed?

so they want us to play a lottery with our childs lives? risk measils or risk MMR side effects.

This is not right, they need to give parents a choice of single vaccines.

I won't be giving him the MMR. I hope he doesn't catch measils, but if he does that his own immune system can fight it.

Its in the telegraph just today that some children were left deaf.

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9521728/Rogue-strain-of-MMR-vaccine-caused-deafness.html

Given that there is a link between level of parental education and vaccine refusal, I think it would be fair to assume that any private school (where parents are likely to have higher education levels than the local sink-comprehensive) will have a lower vaccination rate.

Steiner Schools put no pressure on parents regarding vaccination - they leave it to the parents to decide what is best for their child.

NewMumOnline Sat 13-Apr-13 23:22:19

CatherinaJTV every Steiner parent I have ever met gets meat from farm sources, where they can trust its quality. To disrespectively assume they are all vegetarians, is to show how little you know.
I apologise if that ONE reference in my post was incorrect, but I stand by the rest of the content.
Liska x

CatherinaJTV Germany Thu 11-Apr-13 13:58:20

and here as well, new mum:

Germany uses the MMR and has done so since 1977. MMR (usually Priorix) is given twice before the second birthday. Vaccination morale is generally high and outbreaks occur in pockets of vaccine refusers, like Steiner schools. In Germany (like anywhere in the developed world), the complication rate is the same between natcheral kids and the unsupplemented omnivores. You can find whatever reason you want for not using the MMR, but please don't make justifications up by cherry picking single sentences from 30 year old references.

NewMumOnline Thu 11-Apr-13 11:27:51

Just dropping in to say that I have recently written about this subject on my blog after having exchanged tweets with other bloggers who are in Wales.
www.newmumonline.co.uk/2013/04/the-measles-epidemic-alternative-view.html
Hope you don't mind me linking to my post

slatternlymother Thu 11-Apr-13 08:12:06

Can't take the NHS seriously in this respect, I might add. I just don't think they have the time or resources and in some cases, experience, to help the minority out with vaccines.

slatternlymother Thu 11-Apr-13 08:10:28

Well said wouldbe we are in the same boat ourselves with DS. I need unbiased information which presents the facts to me.

I've raised my concerns with the doctors, who just shrugged them off and tied themselves up in knots; in the same breath we needed to source a difference vaccine for DS because he is allergic to eggs, then next thing it's 'oh no it's actually dpt we need to worry about, just jab him with mmr, he'll be fine'. It frightened me they didn't appear to have their facts straight and I'm too afraid to go back and give him multiple jabs (family history as well). Instead, I'll give him singular vaccines at my own expense.

They wouldn't even give him the jabs I was concerned about (for damn good reasons) in hospital, so they could monitor his reaction for a few hours after.

I just felt they didn't take me, or my valid concerns seriously at all. So I can't take the NHS seriously.

hawthornthree Wed 10-Apr-13 22:05:40

their parents <goes to bed>

hawthornthree Wed 10-Apr-13 22:04:58

public health officials have made that decision I mean.

hawthornthree Wed 10-Apr-13 22:04:23

I don't doubt for a moment that DS believes he is doing the right thing ethically, and of course, without vaccination there would undoubtedly be more deaths from measles and other vaccination preventable illnesses. Public health have made that decision - that the benefit from vaccinations, from a public heath point of view, vastly outweighs any theoretical risks that might affect a very small number of children, far smaller than would be affected if there was a nationwide measles epidemic.

However, this very small number of children, who may be susceptible to some sort of vaccination issue, should not be ignored, and neither should there parents. To do so, even with the goal of protecting other children through vaccination coverage, is unethical, and so is stifling any future research that might reveal more about these issues.

WouldBeHarrietVane Wed 10-Apr-13 21:47:28

Amandine I don't think any medical professional would deliberately endanger children. I am sure DS is an incredibly genuine person who has dedicated his professional life to trying to look after others.

As a fairly sensible person the conspiracy theorising really puts me off too.

However, I just want a nuanced debate which takes some account of the very rare vaccine damage. From previous posts by saintly on other threads I understood (please correct me if I am wrong, Saintly), that immunologists have acknowledged certain groups of children are more vulnerable to reactions. I want to know where i can find out more about which groups as I think my DS may fall into one / more by virtue of my medical history.

AmandinePoulain Wed 10-Apr-13 21:39:24

Thanks for that link bruffin.

The conspiracy theories surrounding vaccines are what usually puts me off debates like this. I just cannot believe that a highly qualified paediatrician and immunologist would knowingly put millions of children at risk of significant harm just to save face confused. I've no doubt that there are children that have suffered adverse effects from vaccination but the potential for harm is surely far greater from the diseases that we are protecting our children from, which is why both of my children are fully vaccinated.

bruffin England Wed 10-Apr-13 21:24:21
bruffin England Wed 10-Apr-13 21:21:12

[[ http://www.stanford.edu/~siegelr/mathakia.html info on Urabe strain compared to jeryllyn and rubini]]

CatherinaJTV Germany Wed 10-Apr-13 21:18:57

I second what DameSaggarmakersbottomknocker says.

I third it - as much as we "fought" on the vaccines board, I very much value saintly's input and hope she will stay!

WouldBeHarrietVane Wed 10-Apr-13 21:18:47

I believe the DoH and of course DS really want what is best for children.

There is absolutely no real debate that vaccines damage some children and that they are a tiny minority of all children vaccinated.

Some of us therefore have children who could be hurt by vaccines, but instead of engaging honestly with these fears, due to the good of the many, governments and civil servants and their advisers simply repeat the simple mantra that everyone must vaccinate.

I think their fear is that a truthful nuanced debate would lead to low vaccination and more children dying as herd immunity would be compromised.

I understand their dilemma but I really wish we could have more honesty.

My father was until he recently retired a research scientist in a big mainstream company which amongst other things produces pharmaceutical products. He fully supports my decision not to vaccinate my DC with mmr at 13 months.

bruffin England Wed 10-Apr-13 21:11:25

Can we please stop with this conspiracy nonsense about the Urabe strain

It was used because it was more effective than the jerrilynn strain. There is a far greater risk of encephylitis from mumps itself as well as deafness.
The risk had to be weighed up with more children catching mumps and open to the complications or less children catching mumps and maybe a slightly higher risk of asceptic meningitis which normally does not have lasting side effects and a slightly higher risk of febrile convulsions which are again harmless (my family has gefs+ for at least 4 generations so i do know a lot about them) . Prior to immunization mumps was the leading cause of deafness and is also linked to diabetes type 1.
Urabe is still used in many countries around the world and many clinics supplying single vaccines in the past used the Urabe strain.

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 20:41:09

AmandinePoulain, of course Professor Salisbury is a politician.

The Department of Health is not some airy fairy organisation with a deep desire to look after our babies. Unfortunately.

The DOH is worth megabucks.

If Professor Salisbury only had our children's interest at heart, why did he contribute to the introduction of the Urabe strain MMR vaccines to the UK? Vaccines which had been proven to be unsafe in Canada? Vaccines which were withdrawn (eventually) in the UK once they were seen to have been as dangerous for UK children as they were for Canadian children?

You don't have to be an MP to be a politician.

I am being very polite about Professor Salisbury when I refer to him as a politician BTW.

WouldBeHarrietVane Wed 10-Apr-13 20:30:42

Amandine, do you think dissenting voices rise to the top of government departments? Look what happened to the drugs czar when he voiced his own opinions.

AmandinePoulain Wed 10-Apr-13 20:27:01

Beach I wouldn't describe him as a politician - he works for the Dept of Health but that doesn't mean he's a member of a political party; nor is he elected confused. I think that his opinion is very valuable, and valid at the present time. I don't mean to insult anyone but I would trust his opinion far more than an unqualified anonymous forum poster to be honest; however that doesn't mean that I think that other poster's views are invalid - but then that's the nature of debate.

Beachcomber Wed 10-Apr-13 19:31:31

I second what DameSaggarmakersbottomknocker says.

Saintlyjimjams is an invaluable poster, and if I may say so has more to offer this site than the likes of Professor Salisbury, who is after all a politician.

And I would like to repeat my interest in a discussion thread with poster Vaccines, and indeed any other parents who are involved in the MMR medical situation. We are a parenting website after all.

This thread has thoroughly depressed me. Saintlyjimjams and Vaccines - I hope you are ok.

DameSaggarmakersbottomknocker Wed 10-Apr-13 17:05:51

MNHQ - it's pretty ironic when a thread giving information to parents about immunisation results in the loss to the site of the one person from whom many of us have learned most about the subject. If she Saintly decides not to stay MN as a whole and vaccination debate in particular will be the poorer for her loss.

hawthornthree Wed 10-Apr-13 16:14:10

Amandine I completely understand your concern.

Jimjams sad

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