Does anyone fancy going a bit Stepford with me?

(623 Posts)
BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 22:32:30

I regret that title now! but will carry on regardless...

Basically, I have recently read a marriage book called "Fascinating Womanhood" by helen Andelin, written in the 1960's, and am starting to practise it in my marriage. It involves a lot of work, but good work, IYKWIM, accepting DH, admiring him, appreciating his efforts, listening to him, being a "domestic goddess", taking over childcare completely, settling him with a drink when he comes home, etc.

I'm LOVING it and actually -- weirdly -- feel a lot happier and more confident since I started it! I know it's not going to be popular with many of you, but is there anyone out there who fancies trying it out?

We could do it like a sort of bookclub, and follow the assignments every week. It promises to make your DH absolutely gaga in love again, v attentive, romantic, etc.

But more than that, it really teaches you acceptance, so if they're not being perfect, it really doesn't get to you as much. Or at all.

I know it'll get scoffed at, but I don't care really!

Anyone? It's hard work, but I'm convinced it's worth it as after just 3 weeks, DH and I feel so much closer, he is saying ILY all the time, we are laughing again, holding hands in bed, etc.

Even my mum has noticed. We went there for lunch and afterwards Mum rang up and said, "What's with you two? Your DH looks so happy and confident, and your body-language together was so 'united'!"

thumbwitch Mon 24-Nov-08 22:35:34

my DH would LOVE it if I did that but not my cup of tea - I already admire him enough, he is the sort of person who gets one compliment and then sits on his laurels and does sfa else afterwards. So a little admiration and appreciation and some backside kicking work best for my sanity us! grin

MinkyBorage Mon 24-Nov-08 22:36:19


BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 22:39:41

LOL! It's more than that though.

She also talks about how to break down a man's "wall of reserve". She says that a husband often decides to keep silent to preserve the peace in a marriage, when there are things he is irked about but is scared to discuss in case of fallout. She tells you how to handle that, and get him to open up.

Also, how to get him to release all his inner resentments in a massive "clear the air" session in order to let back in all his feelings of love, romance, affection, etc.

How to be the one person he shares his dreams/feelings with. How to bring forth (don't scoff) his feelings of "celestial love", where he strokes your hair, goes all protective, showers you with tenderness, etc.


Tortington Mon 24-Nov-08 22:40:16

there are so many things wrong, i hardly know where to start, i have heard of this before, MNetters have mocked american websites that claim to do the same thing.

i just can't help thinking ...why do you have to be attentive to his every need - for him to be attentive to some of yours.

why do you want to do this? do you have no other ambition shock

what is wrong with you as a person, that you have to impliment subservience as a means to a happy marriage

and again shock

Goober Mon 24-Nov-08 22:40:31

Have been doing this for years. We are very happy.

BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 22:40:48

Lol at Minky! I'll get you a copy of the book then, yes?

BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 22:41:24

Really Goober? Naturally, or did you read this kind of book...?

elastamum Mon 24-Nov-08 22:42:15

Cant help you here. My H left me with the kids to be with a woman who does just that shock Couldnt bring myself to do it!

thumbwitch Mon 24-Nov-08 22:43:41

agree with custy and perhaps I am just "lucky" in that my DH is already pretty attentive, open etc. But then we haven't been married long, maybe that's it!! grin

Tortington Mon 24-Nov-08 22:43:43

just had a bit of celestial lovin' we do that celestial lovin most nights when we watch a film or a series. a cuddle, he stokes my hair yadda yadda.

i work ft, i did make his tea ( chucked in oven) and have berated him for losing a full human being ( my daughter)

i really don't think i have to make it my lifes mission to kiss his ginger spotty arse, for him to love me and like me enough to be open and touchy feely.

Goober Mon 24-Nov-08 22:44:04

It has always been this way.

anyfucker Mon 24-Nov-08 22:45:00

beautiful, you need to find something else to do with your time

StayFrosty Mon 24-Nov-08 22:45:41

wot custy said. why are you the emotional caretaker? marriage is a partnership.

MinkyBorage Mon 24-Nov-08 22:46:41

if I even tried to do something like that, it would go against my grain so badly, I feel certain that the strain would be so much that I would soon end up soaked in gin ! Much safer if I continue with the level of dissent I employ atm

anyfucker Mon 24-Nov-08 22:48:07

celestial lovin ?

is that when you see stars cos you have just been shagged into the middle of next week?

I'll 'ave some of that, thankyou

as to the rest of it, no way on this earth

if I had to do this to keep a man, I would stay single

snowleopard Mon 24-Nov-08 22:48:44

Well custy's just said it all for me, except ruder

It may WORK, or course most men would cheer up and fancy a spot of celestial hair-rubbing if their partner suddenly decided to cater for their every whim, never kvetch at them and swallow any annoyance she might ever feel. But why should you? What about an equal partnership? If he's on the same mission, jolly good - but not if he's not. Why the hell should you take over all childcare for example?

You know in the days when women were generally expected to be like this, a lot of them ended up on valium from the strain of having their feelings and needs constantly ignored, by themselves and everyone else, and bending over backwards to be the perfect wifey.

Sorry not to be saying yes sign me up here but you're right, probably not a lot of take-up on MN...

BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 22:50:02

Hmm. so far this recruitment drive isn't going very well, is it.

anyfucker Mon 24-Nov-08 22:50:27

and I fucking hate having my hair rubbed......

If you really think that this is the way you would like to live, you need to be very sure that the man you are using this method on is an extremely balanced and ethical human being. Because if he's not, he will very soon start to consider you as a pet or an object, and you won't get 'celestial loving', you will get condescension, laziness, criticism and possibly even abuse.

Unfortunately, a really balanced and ethical human being won't like being treated like some kind of slaveowner or minor deity, and will either ask you to start acting like a person again or run away.

anyfucker Mon 24-Nov-08 22:51:09

afraid not beautiful smile

BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 22:51:10


MinkyBorage Mon 24-Nov-08 22:51:38

my husband said I should try it, but I've told him to fuck off

dittany Mon 24-Nov-08 22:53:39

You do know that the 1960s were the era of women's liberation and women finally rising up and rejecting that kind of crap don't you beautiful?

It's probably books like the one you're describing that led at least some of those women to say "enough is enough".

Those were the days when a woman couldn't get a mortgage or even buy a washing machine without her husband's signature and approval. It would be a very retrograde step to want to go back to those times.

Anyway who wants to be with a man who needs his wife to be his servant before he'll treat her in a kind way?

Nappiesgalore Mon 24-Nov-08 22:53:47

i have more respect for my man than to run about massaging his ego all the time in this way

and fwiw, i had a relationship where the man was kind of like you describe... and it got DULL and suffocating and really irritating. and i had no respect for him before long. and all because he was doting and simpering and super-sodding-attentive.

i am NOT perfect, nor is my dp, and nor is our relationship, BUT, we are equals and there is no way on this earth that i am going to run about bending myself around every whim and fancy and behaving as though i have no personality or likes or life of my own.

BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 22:53:58

It's not that extreme. For most SAHMs, for example, it wouldn't be that hard to reorganise your day so it's peaceful when DH gets home from work.

Oh, can't we just try it for fun? As an experiment?

MinkyBorage Mon 24-Nov-08 22:54:00

and he said that BEAUTIFUL sounds like a nice person........the silly cunt

anyfucker Mon 24-Nov-08 22:54:02

my dh likes my spunkiness and the fact that I have a mind of my own

and if he doesn't, he better bloody had do, RIGHT NOW


MinkyBorage Mon 24-Nov-08 22:54:36

my husband being the silly cunt obviously, not BEAUTIFUL

snowleopard Mon 24-Nov-08 22:55:59

I do like the title though, "Fascinating Womanhood" - just think it's wrong for the topic. Being a self-subjugating drone isn't all that fascinating is it really? The title makes me think of weirdy artist ladies prancing on beaches at night, mooncups and merkins and all that kind of thing.

dsrplus8 Mon 24-Nov-08 22:56:03

beautiful my dh would ask what i was up to ?if i did that,or what i was after/how much did i spend?grin...still if it works for you and your happy doing it then good for you.

dittany Mon 24-Nov-08 22:56:21

Why do you need to drag everybody else down with you Beautiful?

Surely if it's that great you can do it and then report back on the super results.

Get your husband on here so we can interview him too. That would be fun .

Nappiesgalore Mon 24-Nov-08 22:57:07

reorganise my day so its peaceful when he gets home??

did you really say that??


snowleopard Mon 24-Nov-08 22:58:30

Why can't he reorganise his day so it's peaceful for you? Especially if you're a SAHM, I bet you need peace more than he does.

You'd get a better, healthier dynamic in a properly-negotiated full-on 24/7 BDSM relationship, you know.

Chirpygirl Mon 24-Nov-08 22:59:29

I may be missing something but why should my day be stressed and rushed so the house 'looks nice' for him and is peaceful for him?
What about my peace?
I make his tea and do majority of housework but I don't worship my DH, he's my best mate and has been sicne I was 17, he's not 'better' than me so why should I treat him as such.

BennyAndJoon Mon 24-Nov-08 23:00:20

Oh dear god

DH would freak if I did that

He would wonder what happened to my brain.

I work as full time as him, but he is away during the week, so when he gets home he gets hit by an addoring, screaming, excited toddler and a demand for adoption forms(from me)

Then he gets a GnT, and he tries to persuade me to have sex with him before the children are in bed

That seems enough for him

MinkyBorage Mon 24-Nov-08 23:00:46

I want my husband to realise how hard it is, and he needs to pay for having eaten his lunch without anyone poking it or trying to steal it, and going to the bog on his own

Englebert Mon 24-Nov-08 23:00:48

So I'm supposed to re-organise my day and turn into a servant just for the privilege of listening to dh whinge release his inner resentment?

What a bargain. hmm

snowleopard Mon 24-Nov-08 23:01:05

My DP likes my sarcasm! Or so he says.

CharleeInChains Mon 24-Nov-08 23:01:17


Let me just go and fetch DP his pipe and slippers so he can relax in front of the fire with a Brandy while i sew in the Parlour.

Seriously???? hmm

BennyAndJoon Mon 24-Nov-08 23:01:23

pmsl at Solid

Sazisi Mon 24-Nov-08 23:01:50

I just asked DH if he'd like this arrangement, and he said he thinks I have enough people to look after without him adding to my burden - right answer

StayFrosty Mon 24-Nov-08 23:02:04

pmsl @ minky

dittany Mon 24-Nov-08 23:02:11

So how did you get hold of this book anyway, Beautiful? Your dh didn't get it for you did he? shock

Hahaha. Beautiful I hope you are winding us up

Sazisi Mon 24-Nov-08 23:03:07

lol Dittany

thumbwitch Mon 24-Nov-08 23:03:51

"It's not that extreme. For most SAHMs, for example, it wouldn't be that hard to reorganise your day so it's peaceful when DH gets home from work."


Sorry, hysteria took over.

sweetgrapes Mon 24-Nov-08 23:04:46

It has some good points though.
<<sticks neck out>>

When I decide not to snap at everything dh does and tell him how wrong he is; life is easier and I am more relaxed myself.

However, with dh it's always 'give an inch, take a mile'. Me giving, him taking... so I have to tell him to f off too!

If I am playing the good wifey then he never says 'wow'/'good job' or anything. It's always picking on the bits that I have left. (am not super mom so there always is something left). It's like I up my standards and he ups his standards of bickering too!! So, I drop mine and tell him to f off and do his own blooming washing or whatever.grin

anyfucker Mon 24-Nov-08 23:05:06

ok, beautiful

you can tell us you were joking now......

snowleopard Mon 24-Nov-08 23:05:14

Have you actually seen the Stepford Wives btw? (The original 60s one I mean) It is actually about this and it's fucking scary.

Sazisi Mon 24-Nov-08 23:05:48

I suppose something like this could possibly work if it was completely reciprocal; but DH certainly wasn't anticipating my needs last night when I got home to a bomb-site, and in my hung-over, delayed-flight state too angry

BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 23:06:12

Dittany, I can't remember! I've had it for a few years, unread. then 3 weeks ago, things were so bad with DH -- not talking, just boring, no feeling of intimacy, etc -- that I got up at 3am and sat down to send him a long letter about everything I was fed-up with. Then I thought, "Oh sod it, I'll look up 'marriage advice' instead" and found the book.

I dug out my copy, started reading (she hooks you in at the very start, describing how lovely & affectionate husbands can be), and decided I'd give it a try.

Resented it for 2 days, but then the atmosphere became SO much nicer rapidly, that I got swept along.

dsrplus8 Mon 24-Nov-08 23:06:54

claws in ladies please. the op just wants to instagate a social experiment, would we be able to do it? would it work for others as it has worked for op? it is a intresting topic ,it would be like steping back in time to when our grannies were our age.i sort of get what the op is isnt realistic for girls who have been brought up with a equal partnership notion as ideal for marriage,but i do wonder did our grannies know something we dont???or was the lower divorce/seperate rates because they put up with shit, as their" wifely duties?"hmmsad

dittany Mon 24-Nov-08 23:07:39

Apparently there's a fascinating womanhood movement in the US.

dittany Mon 24-Nov-08 23:10:18

My granny was miserable and it had a lot to do with having to be subservient to a man who was not her superior for all her married life and being trapped in the marriage because divorce was almost unheard of. The women's movement came into being for a reason you know.

Beautiful, maybe I'm mixing you up with someone else but I was sure you've been promoting this "surrendered wife" stuff before. Is it really only 3 weeks since you had an equal relationship with your dh?

BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 23:12:17

This re-organising the day thing...

I have 2 DS, 1 is 5 yo, 1 is nearly a year.

All I did was feed them earlier and get them in the bath by 5:30pm, so the house was relatively quiet when DH got in. Then he could sit and relax for 30 minutes, before he took DS1 upstairs to read him his story.

How hard was that??!

Plus, I liked it too. I felt like I was on top of things.

TBH, I felt I had more dignity managing the day so it was quiet when DH got home, then letting him come in to a chaotic house, kids everywhere, no meal prepared and me in a babysick-splattered tracksuit, as had happened before.

Drsplus8 the lower divorce rate might have had more to do with the enforced economic dependence of women - no benefits, no good jobs, women not being entitled to own anything (any inherited wealth a woman might have became her husband's property), women not being allowed to open a bank account or get a mortgage without a man's permission in writing...

Sorry but I don't get what would be so 'interesting' about reducing women's status to less than fully human.

beanieb Mon 24-Nov-08 23:14:11

"how to get him to release all his inner resentments in a massive "clear the air" session in order to let back in all his feelings of love, romance, affection"

how does this bit work?

Do you then get to tell him your resentments. If not it seems awfully onesided to me.

dsrplus8 Mon 24-Nov-08 23:14:26

dittany , i think you might be right there, something stinkest of troll

thumbwitch Mon 24-Nov-08 23:14:31

drsplus8 - my gran did all the housework, my granpa sat in front of the tv (literally - his chair was right in front of it so almost no-one else could see it) and smoked his pipe. He did the gardening and the washing up on Sunday (after he retired).

When he died, the poor woman didn't even know how to pay the bills, write a cheque, nothing. She was of an era when a woman needed her husband's permission to have a bank account. Sod that for a game of soldiers.

walkingbus Mon 24-Nov-08 23:14:34

I don't get the bit about "how lovely and affectionate husbands can be"

Like "husbands" are some sort of species, like german shepherd dogs or something

Beautiful, you might find this more fun, there's rather more understanding of the only dynamic under which this kind of relationship can function properly.

CharleeInChains Mon 24-Nov-08 23:16:30

You lost you dignity becuase he came home and the house was a mess and there was no meal prepared? shock and hmm

I bet your one of those women who never fart in front of her DH as well aren't you? grin

Seriously though my dp saw me in labour and has cleaned me up when i puked on myself after getting drunk when i was 16! I think ly dignity may be 10foot under by now.

anyfucker Mon 24-Nov-08 23:17:25

I don't think beautiful is a troll

seriously deranged, yes

troll, no smile

dsrplus8 Mon 24-Nov-08 23:17:53

infact no troll, worse MAN HAS HIJACKED MN, incognito as "beautiful", who serves her man ,and makes for happy life for all,(mans dream if u throw in some bjs ,eeewww)

thumbwitch Mon 24-Nov-08 23:18:14

but it might be a troll thread - a joke? Please? let it be a joke?

BennyAndJoon Mon 24-Nov-08 23:19:16

My husband is lovely and affectionate and horny as hell when he comes home to chaos

and he often tells workmates how he loves the fact that it is a riot when he comes home with children throwing themselves at him as he comes through the door

(mostly because mummy has been saying daddy home any minuite for the last 15)

thumbwitch Mon 24-Nov-08 23:19:39

and Beautiful (or whoever is inhabiting your nicknme at the mo) - getting my DS into bed before his Dad came home would be an epic achievement. And would probably really upset DH as the highlight of his day is seeing DS's little face light up when Dada gets home.

StayFrosty Mon 24-Nov-08 23:21:32

My Nanan was just as vocal about my Grandad's shortcomings as any modern day MNer, I must say, he drove her round the bloody bend each and every single day of their 50 odd year marriage.

CharleeInChains Mon 24-Nov-08 23:23:43

My nan although she loved him in her own wierd way she hated my grandad and he hated her to. Divorce just wan't looked kindly upon in the days or your.

BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 23:25:19

I'm not a troll! I'm just a bit... carried away. you know when you start a new diet or stop smoking and overnight go all righteous and enthused? I feel like that. It'll wear off.

But I don't see why there is SO MUCH opposition to the idea of being lovely to your DH and taking care of your house. Really. Especially if you're a SAHM. It doesn't work if you have a full-time job, I'll admit that. But if you are at home anyway, why not try it?

It's easy (and funny) to announce that you'd never in a billion years pander to your man, but I'm not suggesting we all lobotomise ourselves.

One of my male friends married recently (before i'd read this) and they were showing me round their house. I asked his wife, "So will you be ironing Mark's shirts then?" She huffed and puffed, "Certainly not!" like I'd asked her if she was going to carve his name into her forehead and perform genital mutilation.

It's all a bit extreme. maybe this book is too, but it seems to be hard to find a happy balance.

Anyway, I'm loving it at the moment. Really!

StayFrosty Mon 24-Nov-08 23:26:44

That's right Charlee, much better to swallow your burgeoning resentment every day until you choke on it and stay together until you hate every molecule of each other's body, so celestial dontcha think? grin

LeCynic Mon 24-Nov-08 23:27:46

I can't trust myself to give a polite, rational answer to this pile of shite

VivaLaPotPourri Mon 24-Nov-08 23:28:11

I get you, Beautiful. Ish. I love 'looking after' DH, it does make for a nicer relationship - he works 12 hours a day, sometimes 7 days a week and is very grateful when he can just relax when he comes in. It makes me feel good too. But I have depression so there has been times I have sat in tears while DH ran around like a blue arsed fly. It's all give and take. If DH demanded it, i'd tell him where to shove it, but on the whole I like 'being a housewife'

LeCynic Mon 24-Nov-08 23:28:55

The paradox is that you sound reasonably intelligent ...and yet....

snowleopard Mon 24-Nov-08 23:29:59

I have absolutely no problem with "the idea of being lovely to your DH and taking care of your house" - insofar as it's equal, and we both do it. I work part-time, but even if I didn't, I'd be doing childcare full-time which is a hard job and I still expect DP to do his share of looking after the house.

It is the inequality that grates, not the sentiment itself. Of course married people should make an effort to be nice to each other and patient and kind, though we can't always manage it. The question is, why is that book aimed at wives? Why not just married people?

dittany Mon 24-Nov-08 23:31:47

I can't imagine why everybody isn't zooming to sign up. I mean who wouldn't want to go back to the days when women were second class citizens and to survive had to totally suck up to men.

According to FW, women working outside the home (which we have always done, particularly if we weren't middle class) is a terrible mistake - Doris Day and Katherine Hepburn will show us the error of our ways. Read it all and weep:

"Failure to Fill your Role

The first big trouble maker in marriage is the failure to fill your God given role as the wife, mother and homemaker. In spite of our many labor saving devices, many homes are in a state of disaster - displaying a total lack of management. The cupboards are bare or in disorder, meals irregular or not on time and the house in a state of confusion. The home is an institute of learning and should be run like a well organized hospital, church or school. We are raising human beings with divine destinies, entitled to the best the parents can offer. Anything less is not acceptable. Determine to make a success of your career in the home, as the patient, understanding wife, excellent homemaker and devoted mother.

The man's role is equally important as the guide, protector and provider. If the man does not do his part, be a shining example and do yours anyway. When it comes to his leading the family, throw him the ball and let him fumble with it, and know that he will fumble many times before he learns to make wise decisions. If you want to do anything to help him, pray for him.


I silently sat in on the Online Classes this week and noticed that although the lesson was on appreciation and admiration, the subject most dwelt on was the problem of anger and what to do about it. The conversation was especially focused on anger towards one's husband. When we are angry our first impulse may be to "control our tongue." Although this is better than an ugly temper it does not cure anger within. It may lessen it some but is not apt to cure. Especially should a woman who is continuously angry or has an uncontrolable temper make great effort to rid herself of this very destructive weakness. Here are some sure solutions:

The best cure for anger is to develop an angelic character. As we grow to be more patient and forgiving, more long suffering and kind, we just naturally drop our feelings of anger towards anyone. The most necessary character trait to overcome anger is humility. When you are truly humble you feel no just reason to be angry with your husband because you are well aware of your own weaknesses. Your weaknesses may be different from your husband's but in worthiness you are likely equal. And remember the admonition of Jesus Christ, "Judge not, that ye be not judged, for with that judgment you judge, you shall be judged."

Some people justify anger by saying that Christ was angry when he drove the money changers from the temple. This is a mistaken view. His emotions were not anger but "righteous indignation." For example, suppose you were to witness an innocent child being abused, or a little helpless animal beaten with a stick. Something indignant would arise within you that would send you to their immediate rescue. And you would be doing a heroic deed rather than displaying a fit of revenge.

Of course Childlikeness is another way of dealing with anger but you must have an angelic character for even that to be effective. That is why it is taught last. But even if that be the case and your husband is deserving of some kind of a reprimand, if you have a sharp edged tongue or a fierce look in your eye you will not be charming no matter how childlike you are.


George Washington made the comment that "One of the most common faults running throughout humanity, even with the great ones is "self-interest." That would invite the faults of selfishness and self-centeredness. Women are especially guilty of self-interest. Their world is first themselves, then their children. It is hard for them to find time or mental focus for anyone or anything beyond it, not even for their husbands. But, you must drop your all consuming self-interest to attain a happy marriage. Women who do not overcome this natural tendency are not really candidates for marriage. Marriage is a partnership, depending on togetherness, giving and sharing.

Don't Injure his Feelings:

If you want a wonderful marriage, don't do or say anything that would make your husband feel emotionally troubled. A man's feelings are always at risk, especially his feelings of pride in his masculinity, the nobility of his character and his intellectual gifts. So, avoid any statement that would make him feel less of a man, even by implication. To be specific, don't do or say anything that would make him feel any of the following:


* * * * * *

Recommended Movies

The following are two old movies that demonstrate how mixed up a woman's world can become when she pursues a career outside the home. Both are comedies but have a strong messages for all of us.

Woman of the Year with Kathryn Hepburn and Spencer Tracy. In this movie Kate and Tracy are competative newspaper reporters. They fall in love and then try to work marriage into their busy schedule. Kate is too busy to have a baby so they adopt a little boy. In spite of her efforts to keep her marriage on an even keel she makes things worse by being elected "Woman of the Year" which outshines Tracy and sends their marriage on the skids. Finally Kate leaves the newspaper world in an effort to save her marriage but is ridiculously funny as she tries to fit into cooking and running a household.

The Thrill of it All with Doris Day and James Garner. In this movie Doris Day plays a contented doctor's wife who gets an offer to do television commercials that pays lots of money! The results are hilarious yet so clearly demonstrate how the whole family was turned upside down by this decision. Thank you Shirley Hakeem for recommending this."

thumbwitch Mon 24-Nov-08 23:32:36

You know, one of the things I like best about my DH is that he is pretty self-aware, and he knows that (among other things) he is more of a taker than a giver.

So the more I give, the more he will take and the balance will continue to tip further and further until the whole thing falls over.

And THAT is why I wouldn't dream of taking up your challenge.

dsrplus8 Mon 24-Nov-08 23:33:05

spot on snow!!!grin can someone bring out a book that tells men to be nicer to their wives/ girlfreinds?. wouldnt mind someone running after my every whim.oh the irony!!!

Chirpygirl Mon 24-Nov-08 23:34:01

Just read OP and other posts to DH (it's an ad break so I am allowed to talk...wink) and his response to me asking what he woudl think.

I'd want to know if you had been smoking anything you shouldn't have. And what had you spent all my money on

thumbwitch Mon 24-Nov-08 23:35:16

Dittany shockshockshock - especially the bit about angelic character to control your anger - ARRRRRGHHHHHH!!!!!!
And please just step on me to wipe the mud and shit off your shoes as you go...

sweetgrapes Mon 24-Nov-08 23:35:49

That's the bit that sounds ok to me (being nice to each other).

I snap at Dh at the slightest thing and we end up quarelling.(He does the same) If we both relax a bit and let go, then it's a much easier relationship and we can be friends again.

The bristling thing for the ironing. It is extreme. I didn't do it for years and finally caved and did his ironing because now he's working really long hours.

But he still does it when he can and appreciates it when I do it.

However, if I hadn't bristled all those years, I doubt he would appreciate my touching the iron. It would jsut be my job and 'hey haven't you done it yet?'.

BennyAndJoon Mon 24-Nov-08 23:37:28

I have just read some of this to DH (who is working away) and he said "please never do that I would wonder what I had done wrong, and it wouldn't be coming home to you"

so that's a no vote

BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 23:37:39

The equality thing... The balance is, men bring in all the money and have all the work pressures. In return, you look after the house & kids, and carry all those pressures. Men also -- oh, I'm looking forward to you all hearing this! -- control the money and decide how it's spent, pay all the bills, etc.

Er, anyone? smile

thumbwitch Mon 24-Nov-08 23:39:29

ah feck off, you're having a laugh now.
And I work from home as well and have just pointed out to DH that, far from him bringing in the vast majority of the money, there is in fact only a matter of £100-200 difference between our monthly incomes.

dittany Mon 24-Nov-08 23:40:23

So it's not just about being organised at home and being nice to your dh is it? It's about putting women out of the workplace (although these men with fascinating wives won't mind having female nurses look after them, or female cleaners clean their offices probably, or female shop assistants serve them) and back into the home where we can take our (rightful) second place. What's not to like?

Beautiful: what happens to the deal when Hubby loses his job or spunks all the money on beer and the bookies?

sweetgrapes Mon 24-Nov-08 23:40:51

Posted a bit late...

shock at dittany's post.

In case anyone is wondering, I'm not taking up beautifuls offer. grin

Tortington Mon 24-Nov-08 23:41:06

amature psychology for a minute...

the house and the kids were getting on top of you, the relationship was in a rut, and you found a book that helped you get on top of the stuff at home.

this made you feel more in control and helped you be nicer to each other.

becuase you didn't like who you had become, the frumpy shit and sick covered unkempt , down in the dumps mum of two - with no identity, feeling lost in the world without lable other than "mum" or "wife"

i think that actually quite a lot of people can relate to the out of control feeling you talked about - when housework piles up etcetc - thats why the flylady threads are so successful.

so i can completely understand you wanting to seize control of your life, give it a lable and have a kind of mission statement to work towards rather than aimlessly flaying.

I hope beyond all hopes that when the giddy feeling of joy happiness and greatfulness wears off...that your dh doesn't come to expect and demand these things.

i hope that, you are not designing yourself a future at the expense of another future.

beanieb Mon 24-Nov-08 23:42:18

Beautiful - why does this make you feel good?

BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 23:43:25

Really -- why is it second place to be at home, looking after a family? Why? I hate how we have been made to feel that staying at home is demeaning, and "second class", and a waste of time. I absolutely hate that.

Tortington Mon 24-Nov-08 23:44:51

was really digging deep to try and understand you with the last post.

but the finances thing is scary. thats too important to fuck around with this way.

i beg you with all my heart and soul, please please keep in the loop with money.

i am getting quite upset actually

Quattrocento Mon 24-Nov-08 23:45:09

I think you need medical help.

Or maybe you need to get a life

Or maybe a job

Or maybe you should emigrate to the US Bible belt and grow your hair long and practice being properly submissive

Or why don't you take your line of thinking to its logical conclusion, and emigrate to downtown Kabul. They don't bother educating women there. After all, there's no need.

Farking stepford wives. This is MN. You know. The home of intelligent feisty irascible and frequently drunken women.

Tortington Mon 24-Nov-08 23:46:18

staying at home isn't second class.

it isn't and no one is saying it is. there are plently of sahms - what you are advocating isn't that.

its some 50's utopia that neve fucking existed int his country. it just didn't

dittany Mon 24-Nov-08 23:46:54

Because you have to spend your life sucking up to him and deferring to all his decisions. Is that not obvious? You're never allowed to get angry or to voice even reasonable criticism.

Childcare and domestic work are valuable work, why doing them suddenly means that the woman doing them needs her male partner to boss her around lead her and take all the important decisions in the family is beyond me.

sweetgrapes Mon 24-Nov-08 23:47:57

Spot on custardo.

That's what 'keeping on top of everything' does for me.

More importantly, it means I am not running around like a headless chicken all day and actually have time to mn study at the end of the day so I can go back to work!

So, yes I am managing my day better when I think it's all my job and don't expect dh to pitch in - but not for dh's benefit - for my own benefit.

Chirpygirl Mon 24-Nov-08 23:48:48

Its not that being at home is second class, I dont think that at all. What you are suggesting is subjugation and making yourself a second class citizen in favour of your husband. That is what the problem is.
Why should all his stresses and troubles be eased and not ours?

Quattrocento Mon 24-Nov-08 23:49:34

Oy Beauty. You are a loon

Custy. Do not be disturbed or upset by this poster.

It's probably some hairy-arsed trucker sitting on the other end of that laptop. Typing out his fantasy of a submissive and beautiful wife.

Do not engage with the loons

Fark off now, loony loony loon

Beautiful: being a SAHM is only demeaning if you get told that it's your destiny because you don't have a penis. Some people make great SAHPs, they find housework satisfying or at least not hateful but more importantly they are really good at interacting with small children and thoroughly enjoy it. But SAHPs are only really going to be happy and satisfied if their partners genuinely appreciate them and it's understood that the partnership is a partnership and a joint project, not a case of one partner being the servant of the other in return for food and lodging.
There is a genuine problem with society only valuing wage-earners, but the root of the problem lies in the idea that all the caring-type work should be done by women for no money because women exist to service men.

thumbwitch Mon 24-Nov-08 23:50:59

I expect, Beautiful, that you'll be quite happy when your overlord decides that you have stepped out of line and that you need beating into submission, with a stick no thicker than his little finger.hmm

Seriously, this has gone beyond a joke. No one is saying there is anything wrong with being a SAHM, or that it is in any way second class. It is as valid and important a job as going out to earn a living - BUT it doesn't mean you have to become a domestic doormat with no access to the money at the same time.

BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 23:51:44

Oh God. Look, stop posting to me so manfully! You just know I'm weak and will crumble!

I didn't think it was that bad. I was only doing it for fun. I just wanted a bit more hair-stroking.

Quattrocento Mon 24-Nov-08 23:51:59


dsrplus8 Mon 24-Nov-08 23:53:10

beautiful your making it worse!!! you are a troll arent you????

anyfucker Mon 24-Nov-08 23:54:37

right, out with it

you fucking weirdo grin

dittany Mon 24-Nov-08 23:55:02

Does your dh really want you to be submissive to him and allow him to take all the decisions in the family, beautiful?

dsrplus8 Mon 24-Nov-08 23:56:05

pmsl at anyfucker grin

Tortington Mon 24-Nov-08 23:56:21

you are giving him financial control

so he will stroke your hair.

its fucking ridiculous.

Tortington Mon 24-Nov-08 23:57:03

good point dittany, what kind of real man wants a wet loon like that anyway.

BEAUTlFUL Mon 24-Nov-08 23:57:10

Oh, for fuck's sake, I'm not a bloody troll! Grrr!

Has nobody here ever read a self-help book and got completely sweapt away by its promise? Has nobody else felt bored in theiur marriage, worn down by things, and wanted a way to improve it?

Am I the only one to read something and be so spineless impressionable to have leapt all over it like it's The Answer and then tried to convert everyone else?

If it's any consolation, DH is all a bit shocked too, albeit in a happy way.

Quattrocento Mon 24-Nov-08 23:57:13


I don't believe for one second that this is a woman posting. It's some sick bloke getting off on this.

anyfucker Mon 24-Nov-08 23:58:21

if this is trollery, its the best I've seen for a while

my blood pressure is through the roof !


I will say it again,


thumbwitch Mon 24-Nov-08 23:58:57

get one of these if it's hair-stroking you want! FFS, giving up your rights as an equal partner are NOT worth it. Even though I strongly suspect you are trolling for fun.

dsrplus8 Mon 24-Nov-08 23:59:35

beautiful troll , your a troll, its droll, your probably a man on the dole, you oh trolly troll.go find yourself the nearest hole ,....and stay there!!!!grin

Tortington Mon 24-Nov-08 23:59:54

ehs happy now, wait til he comes in and you havent got the tea on the table and he demands it - as a right.

then you say - fuck off

then you get divorced


thumbwitch Tue 25-Nov-08 00:00:37

anyfucker, seriously, this thing is soooo much better than having your hair stroked, which I also hate.

MotherBored Tue 25-Nov-08 00:00:40

Yeah yeah. Self help book. yes of course

Tortington Tue 25-Nov-08 00:00:46

SHE isn't a troll she has posted on mn fer ages - she is deluded and stupidly believes that this shit is the answer.

Quattrocento Tue 25-Nov-08 00:01:16

Do you know any woman in the UK who would hand over her money, dignity and pride over to her husband in return for having her head stroked like a pet dog?

I ask you.

Blardy loons. Here I am meant to be writing deathless prose about the PBR and instead getting sucked in by loons.

Oy, loons. Your master says it's time you were in bed. He phoned me and told me to tell you. You'd better go now ...

anyfucker Tue 25-Nov-08 00:01:29

pmsl @ dsr

go and have a dance round a pole...

or summat

sweetgrapes Tue 25-Nov-08 00:03:10

Why do you think she's a troll? People DO live like this. and these books do have their followers.

thumbwitch Tue 25-Nov-08 00:03:23

custy, i think she is still trolling, even though she is a known regular - if she isn't then she really needs a psychiatrist - but I think she is starting to give her trollery away in the last couple of posts. grin

anyfucker Tue 25-Nov-08 00:03:39

thumbwitch, that erogenator, I wants me one of those

however, I suspect it might get used in an altogether different way.... mwah-ha-ha-ha

Quattrocento Tue 25-Nov-08 00:04:44


If this is a woman

and she really believes "this shit is the answer"

then she is totally, but totally beyond any form of help.

And if you do drag her back into sanity, she'll just go and join the Moonies or something next week.

Give up now and don't get upset

dittany Tue 25-Nov-08 00:05:32

Yes I don't think beautiful is a troll. Women do get sucked in by this kind of stuff - that's why it's a whole movement in America, with all these women saying it's saved their marriages. I suppose one way to avoid conflict is to completely submerge your needs and your personality to the other person which might make you think you had a good relationship.

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 00:05:46

[quattrocentro, pmsl roflol/ hey beautiful if your not a troll sorry, the men in white coats will be with u shortly , theyll tell u what to do , when to take the meds, when u can phone home ,when to get up and go to bed......youll love it !!grin

Tortington Tue 25-Nov-08 00:06:49

your right of course.

off to mek a brew, bbs, calmer

anyfucker Tue 25-Nov-08 00:07:38

dsr, you are crackin me up

what a weird evening on MN this has turned out to be

I have sobbed-with sadness and laughter

I must go to bed now

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 00:07:42

I'm embarrassed - so embarrassed - that I ever started this. And that people can't believe I'm a real person. eep. blush

I read the book and got all enthused. You haven't read it. She's so convincing. she has filled it with millions of "success stories" from women whose husbands are just adorable, over-the-top lovely, and I thought, "I'll have some of that!"

The house was in chaos anyway, so it didn't hurt. You're not allowed to tell your DH what you're doing -- well, of course you can, it's not like joining a cult (help, is it?!), but it won't be as effective -- so I just flung myself into it and began going all 50s.

DH kept a sceptical "How long is this going to last?", "What have you done?", "Look, just tell me when it was towed to and I'll have it picked up" sort of distance for 2 days, then just exploded into niceness and I really thought I was on to something.

I haven't given up work (I work part-time), but I have given him control of the money, as a) I'm SHITE at it, and b) I trust him 100% absolutely, and c) A bit more responsibility wouldn't hurt him in that direction... One of us needs to feel the pressure/worry of it all, and why can't that be him?

differentID Tue 25-Nov-08 00:07:53

Yes, beautiful, your dh is probably shocked about this complete change- probably scared that you'll end up jumping out from behind a curtain with a carving knife. He is probably shitting himself right now. I know mine would be.

thumbwitch Tue 25-Nov-08 00:08:45

By BEAUTlFUL on Mon 24-Nov-08 23:51:44
"Oh God. Look, stop posting to me so manfully! You just know I'm weak and will crumble!

I didn't think it was that bad. I was only doing it for fun. I just wanted a bit more hair-stroking."

By BEAUTlFUL on Mon 24-Nov-08 23:57:10

"Am I the only one to read something and be so spineless impressionable to have leapt all over it like it's The Answer and then tried to convert everyone else?"

I present these 2 statements as evidence in the case of "beautiful is trolling", M'Lud and ladies.

anyfucker Tue 25-Nov-08 00:09:07

beautiful, don't be embarassed

you have made my fucking night, honestly

Saturn74 Tue 25-Nov-08 00:10:27

Bless you, Beautiful. smile

Now shut up and make us all a cup of tea, will ya? wink

sweetgrapes Tue 25-Nov-08 00:10:39

Why thumbwitch?

sweetgrapes Tue 25-Nov-08 00:11:29

the tea would be good

thumbwitch Tue 25-Nov-08 00:11:51

ech, they look like tongue in cheek "look at pore li'l lady me" statements.

Tortington Tue 25-Nov-08 00:11:58

pmsl humphrey!!!!

yeah and a cake - homemade, and hurry up about it, ive been working all day, not like you you lazy arse slacker

anyfucker Tue 25-Nov-08 00:12:09

and stick a broom up your arse so you can sweep up on the way.......

StayFrosty Tue 25-Nov-08 00:12:38

>>She's so convincing. she has filled it with millions of "success stories" from women whose husbands are just adorable, over-the-top lovely, and I thought, "I'll have some of that!"

It's a book. It is full of words which she, the author, made up out of her mind.


dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 00:13:36

fuck it ,anyone for vodka???<<<<lets toast the troll, only polite since we did roast the troll!!!>>>>>grin

thumbwitch Tue 25-Nov-08 00:16:46

Fill'er up dsrplus8 - Slainte! To a good bit of trollery.

anyfucker Tue 25-Nov-08 00:17:30

my sides are aching...

Nappiesgalore Tue 25-Nov-08 00:29:53

... how very odd...

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 00:32:11

hiya napies . do you want a drink? we are toasting the troll! grin

pooter Tue 25-Nov-08 00:33:28

ok - i think i understand where Beautiful (who i think i have seen on MN for quite a while) is coming from.

I have a husband who never lifts a finger if he can help it. It drives me round the bend and i have posted in absolute frustration on MN in the past. We have had almighty rows, i have cried, i have considered leaving etc etc. I'm a SAHM on anti-depressants and my house is in chaos. Before the whole 'handing over control of the finances' bombshell was dropped i actually thought " this has worked for someone....maybe i'll give it a go".

I am in no way subservient to anyone, and when my PIL visit i turn apoplectic with rage at their master/servant relationship - but i need something to change in my marriage. He just doesnt respond to anything ive tried so far.

I really envy those of you whose husbands wouldnt want you to be a domestic goddess. I would love for my DH to take some responsibility for our home/child - but he won't. If its going to be up to me anyway, then perhaps i should just 'suck it up' and do a decent job of it instead of getting angry and frustrated.

But no way am i relinquishing control of the money. That is just setting yourself up for a fall. How many women trust their husbands 100% then find they've been screwed over. Just read MN.

thumbwitch Tue 25-Nov-08 00:38:17

you don't have to BE a troll to indulge in a bit of trollery, I know Beautiful has been around for a while, I have seen her post before too. But I still think (and really hope!) that this is a tongue-in-the-cheek wind-up thread. If not, she's having a delusional episode (although I am glad for her that she is having fun with it!)

thumbwitch Tue 25-Nov-08 00:53:16

for you pooter - sounds like your DH needs some kind of rocket up the arse, don't think he's likely to change much now, though.

pooter Tue 25-Nov-08 00:57:20

ta thumbwitch. I think it was desperation that drove me to considering joining in with Beautiful! Honestly, some days i think im going to whack him with a pan. Hes having some time off soon (works very long hours - more like having an invisible messy teenager than a husband!) so im hoping we can sort out an equitable division of labour. ie, he owes me big time!

ToThrottleablackbird Tue 25-Nov-08 01:02:44


BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 01:17:53

I'm so tempted to say I was trolling. it would be an easy escape route, and the only way I can think of to avoid having to delete my profile and run away to some other, cosier, more doormatty forum...

But I wasn't. I did in fact read a self-help book, in real life, honestly, and got all swept away. I'm glad you have forced me to realise that I have been somewhat brainwashed by the scary book. (The woman who wrote it was a Mormon!)

OK. I just checked the bank accounts and all the money is still where it should be, so phew. That bit I won't, on balance, pursue.

But, I like the rest. The arguments do vanish when you take control of an area of the marriage (in this case, the home) and throw yourself into it 100%. there are good points made in the scary book about housework. Namely: If you just do enough to get by, you will not enjoy it. The joy comes in "Going the second mile".

This I have found to be true. I've been laying the breakfast table the night before with bowls, cereals, etc. In the morning it is lovely. we all eat together -- well, when my DH allows me to have food, of course -- and it is much calmer.

What else? I will stand by the "make the house peaceful when he comes home" idea. Don't slag that off until you have tried it at least once. It is lovely.

I used to criticise DH's driving. He is a good driver, but faster than I am. I used to flinch and twitch when we got past 75. I have stopped that. He actually thanked me yesterday for not saying anything about his driving! blush He said it was a lot easier to concentrate without someone next to him yelping and covering their eyes every 5 minutes.

I have been using DS2's morning nap to have a shower, put make-up on and get nicely dressed. that has boosted my confidence endlessly, and the application of mascara now means I can actually look people in the eye when I go out. I have been wearing an apron (a 50s style, polka-dot one), which is actually quite good fun when you can do it out of choice and not because it's what your Overlord laid out for you to wear. smile

I have meal-planned, and cooked in advance, so our evenings are calm.

I have encouraged DH to talk about his work, to the extent that he says he now thinks of us as being "in it together" (since I am no longer trying to impress him, but am letting him impress me).

I no longer feel guilty, or lazy. I'm not gazing at the dishwasher in fury, I just empty it. It takes approximately 1 minute. I leave the messy, dirty jobs for him to do and he does them cheerfully, because he knows I appreciate it.

When DH asks for my advice I give it to him. But, I don't offer it unsolicited any more. This makes me feel less like his Mum, and makes him feel that I trust him. Instead of worrying about my DH, I concentrate on my stuff.

What else? Oh, I appreciate his discipline in the bedroom, and know that the Taser is actually helping me be a better wife... wink

The atmosphere is lovely, really. I have got a lot more out of this than I have put in. I think what's good -- if you don't go 100% brainwashed like I did before (thanks to everyone for the virtual slapping -- the only language I understand...) -- is that this has helped me show him love in the ways he responds to (the admiration, trust, acceptance, etc) which has made him feel understood and accepted, and much, much lovelier to me.

For example -- before this, I wanted him to call me every day from work. I used to nag him. (Eek.) When I did the bit about "acceptance", I stopped trying to change him, and just thought, "He isn't that chatty, he's busy at work, leave him alone." Because I could let that go and feel happier, he of course now calls me every day because he wants to.

So maybe there is a middle ground. Learning to accept your partner for who he is, right now, and concentrating on what YOU can put into your marriage rather than what YOU will get out of it, is a much healthier way to live.

If I'm delusional about that, I don't want to be talked out of it!

But yes, you're right about the money.

Tortington Tue 25-Nov-08 01:25:00

when he lets you eat - was a joke right ?

i get tazer was a joke.

discipline in the bedroom



BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 01:33:20

Custy! Yes, it was a joke. Tazer, food, discipline - joke. Apron NOT a joke, but i don't care, it's pretty.

dittany Tue 25-Nov-08 01:33:54

Don't you think that your marriage would have been going just as well though if your dh had read a book telling him to do all the things for you that you are doing for him? Who wouldn't want to be treated like they are the most important person around and that their needs and wants must be catered to?

There's actually a book called "Wifework" which is about how women end up putting all the emotional energy into relationships, but get very little back. It's kind of sad.

I also am hoping that "discipline in the bedroom" is a joke.

BitOfFun Tue 25-Nov-08 01:34:34

Have only just found this, and will save the whole thread to read as a treat tomorrow! Meanwhile Beautiful- good luck to sounds to me like you are choosing something consciously rather than accepting an inferior position out of fear or brainwashing, and if it's working for you and you are enjoying it, then I'm not gonna knock it. The taser did make me giggle tho! If you can keep your sense of humour through the flaming I'm sure you've had all night, then you must be pretty bloody happy and relaxed, so you must be doing something right grin

dittany Tue 25-Nov-08 01:34:38

X-posted. Glad that was a joke. You can see why we're wondering though.

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 01:37:11

Well, no, i mean DH doesn't choose my clothes for me and force me into the apron.

oh GOD. I'm going to bed now. DH is applying a small electrical current to my collar, that means he is in the mood. wink

Seriously, thanks for slapping me about the money. Honestly. I'll let you know when the joy of selfless giving in all other areas runs out!

JodieO Tue 25-Nov-08 01:39:45

I agree with those saying what would the differnence be if he did it for you instead? Why should it be you?

I don't think anyone should be that way, it's awful and not living for themselves at all.

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 01:48:00

"Why should it be you?" Does it matter who makes the initial effort to improve a partnership, as long as one of you does?

What I'm tying to say is that I am getting a lot out of this "experiment" too. The house is calm, I have time to spend with the DC and long, happy evenings with DH, who suddenly no longer buries himself in his office upstairs but is always, always around.

I look at the lovely atmosphere in our house, the candles burning, the empty laundry basket, the lovely meals, everyone smiling, and I think, "I did this!"

dittany Tue 25-Nov-08 01:54:18

What are you going to do when you start resenting that it's you putting all the thought and effort into this?

Why does it take you being subservient to have a decent relationship with your dh? Doesn't that bother you?

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 01:55:34

I'm going to shut up about it now and come back in a month or two and let you know how it pans out. I might return frazzled and resentful, clutching divorce papers (but not red bank statements, thanks to Custy), or I might float back in beaming and glowing and completely exhausted from non-stop rogerings. Who knows? I'm happier now than I was.

I'm actually sassier and feistier at home than I was before, weirdly. You know how lovely it is at the start of relationships when you are really into them, and interested in them, and you look nice and are busy, you don't hang around insecurely but can appreciate them and be enthusiastic about them? I feel just like that. Which sounds odd, as I am doing such a lot for other people, but it's true.

Anyway. Bye! I'll send you postcards later.

thumbwitch Tue 25-Nov-08 01:57:11

Beautiful - thank you for coming back and explaining yourself more - I am v. impressed at your resilience!

And so glad that the evangelical scales have fallen from your eyes so that you can see that not ALL the recommendations are ideal!

I have to say, it sounds like your DH has blossomed like a wilting flower under the gentle rainfall of your new persona, and that says quite a lot about him too. It might not work with other men - Pooter's DH for e.g. might just kick back and think "yes, this is how it should be, more beer woman". (sorry Pooter if that's not right).

I have a friend who was never much into housework until she and her DH moved to the States for his work - she wasn't allowed to work, no work permit, so she devoted herself to being a housewife and suddenly started to really enjoy it. So I know that it can happen and it was her choice etc. But I think the bit that got everyone's goat on this thread is that it ALL seemed to revolve around "pleasing your man and making HIS life easier", not about making a partnership more effective.

I am going to bed now, but glad that you are enjoying your newfound way of life -I hope it continues to bring you joy.

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 02:04:39

Dittany -- I feel like I put all the initial effort in, to get the ball rolling, but after that first push it's been both of us together. I can't explain it. He is just a lot sweeter. You think like I'm being a doormat, I feel like I've just taken charge of my life, started dressing better, organised my day, stopped controlling DH, taken responsibility for my home, got on with stuff and Stopped Moaning.

Fark, 2am! Night. x

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 02:11:47

Thumbwitch -- thanks!

anyfucker Tue 25-Nov-08 08:20:12

morning all

< phew >

beautiful, your last post, if you had just said you were doing those things for you, no-one would have batted an eyelid

I always make sure I look nice, I am organised, I don't try to control anybody, but I do it for me not for anyone else including my dh

and I would expect him to do the same for himself, including taking responsibility around the house because he wants it to look nice

you sound a lovely person, and I never thought you were a troll

if you want to live this way, do it, but never take your eye off the ball, reading MN should tell you that!

Tortington Tue 25-Nov-08 08:25:13

good luck there. glad your keeping a financial eye.

Goober Tue 25-Nov-08 08:30:18

Is this for real?
I said I was the same in as much as DH is a lazy git, BUT he will do things around the house without complaint.
I have my own money, car, life. I don't answer to him, if anything he answers to me.
I do the chores as I am at home more than him, but if I wasn't here he would manage.
I wouldn't be any fuckers slave! (sorry anyfucker.)
You must have no self esteem.

Kally Tue 25-Nov-08 08:53:26

Don't think DOORMAT position would suit me.

moondog Tue 25-Nov-08 08:59:33

Beautiful makes some interesting points. She probably doesn't konw it but she is using basic applied behaviour principles to get the best out of her dh.

Someone has to break the cycle of anger and resentment that can poison so many longterm relationships and she has been the one to do it.

This area is the subject of my MSc and if anyone would like to know more (in a very fun, wasy to read but academically water tight manner) about this,may I recommend the paperback
Don't shoot the dog by karen Pryor

A classic standard text.

Kally Tue 25-Nov-08 09:18:49

I think I would get a major 'back flow' if I had to 'adopt' this change. Maybe I choose the wrong men << she says kicking the mans feet back into the wardrobe and slamming door tight>>...

I have a nurturing tendency anyway. I like to cook lots and sit a guy down and watch him enjoy eating it (but get really peeved if he just gets up and reads the paper on the sofa). I would have difficulty on the small scale things. I couldn't see myself smiling and handing him the dishcloth to wipe up... I would expect him to do it anyway without prompting... just a small example. I don't want to train anyone. I'd look for these things beforehand...

Mutual respect/appreciation should come naturally and this you find out before you 'live' together. You can be nurturing away there, and he thinks he's got it made and lapses off. OUt goes respect and appreciation and you are left with animosity in the longrun... much of what happened in the 50's.

My Mum was that generation/'get the tea on the table for when Dad came in'... and she was an alcoholic. (Although Dad was a lovely tender man). And having said that, we didn't know what the half of what went on between them. I know she always complained he kept her short moneywise... had a viscious tongue... but there were lots of things I recall that were good. No infidelity, he always kissed her and swept her off her feet for a quick snog when he came home, ... but in a lot of respects, she wore the trousers and eventually as we got older, we did most of the 'household chores'... so what did she do?... Hangon, she worked fulltime... then got slowly pissed in the armchair... Yeah she was happy...hmm

WilyWombat Tue 25-Nov-08 09:38:31

Surely the point of womens rights is that a woman can choose how she wants to live her life...if this "method" works for beautiful then great.

It was written in a time when most married women didnt work and would have the time to do this...the majority of women work now so in a fair partnership the husband should be sharing the parenting/housework.

Im a WAH mum so as I only work part time and am here I tend to do a lot of the house/child related stuff although DH does get firmly informed when his input is needed grin

It does surprise me how many mothers who work full time get to work all day then do ALL the housework/childcare too - it does seem to me that perhaps they arent getting the great deal they think they are.

I do try to make a point of being appreciative rather than just pointing out the next job he has outstanding about the house, but not so much that he gets too used to it grin

Mercy Tue 25-Nov-08 09:58:02

Thaht's interesting Moondog.

I've just had a look at a few of the reviews of the book you linked to - the one about the farmer and the horses is great

moondog Tue 25-Nov-08 10:00:53

I can't see that one Mercy.
It is fab though. Learning about Behaviourism has changed my life both personally and professionally.

RubyrubyrubyRobinRedbreast Tue 25-Nov-08 10:01:00

I haven't read all this thread but I am amazed how so many people seem to see their relationship with their DP/DH as some sort of competition. hmm

Even I can sort of see the 'behaviour modifying' stuff might work - it's the same as you do with DC: praise them for being good, pick your battles etc. But the main drawbacks are that a lot of already-lazy/selfish men will not become 'sweeter' under this treatment - and it is buying into the idea that women exist for men's benefit, that keeping a man happy is the focus of a woman's existence, and never seems to address the obvious, sensible solution to a lazy selfish man which is kick the fucker out. Being single is far more satisfying than living like a slave anyway.

spinspinsugar Tue 25-Nov-08 10:06:51

omfg @ this thread shock. I think dh is pretty happy with the me way I am, really. In any case, I don't know how I would implement some of the suggestions here - he works from home, alongside 5yo ds and 2yo dd and their very boistrous playdates. There is no way I could "sheild" him from the reality of their day to day existence - and why would I want to? He sees exactly how hard my job is this way.

moondog Tue 25-Nov-08 10:07:31

There is some truth to what you say SGB, but there is also truth in us all being conditioned by our environment (and in turn being changed by it). Thus one must always factor oneself in as parto f problem and therefore part of solution when dealing with someone not behaving in desired manner.

This is not just airy fairy speculation. Years and years of water tight research demonstrate this time and time again.

moondog Tue 25-Nov-08 10:08:22

Also SGB, she is not keeping her dh happy primarily for his benefit.It is mostle for hers.

Mercy Tue 25-Nov-08 10:08:40

Oops, it's not actually a review of the book but here it is

"This book is fun. Karen Pryor begins her book with the sentence: "A reinforcer is anything that, occurring in conjunction with an act, tends to increase the probability that the act will occur again."

That's basically it. She explains the different strategies for changing behaviour in dolphins, dogs, cats and your fellow family members. The concepts can be a little difficult to grasp at first: shaping, clicker training and reinforcement, but read though the ideas carefully and it makes sense.

One of the best illustrations of positive reinforcement I heard in a speech. There was a man who had a farm and there was a public footpath running through it by a field where horses were grazing. People would feed the horses inappropriate things. He put up a notice, "Don't feed the horses". It didn't work. They left litter and continued to feed the horses. Then he put "Don't feed the horses because it creates litter and you will be fined". That didn't work either. Then he put, "We only eat apples and carrots". It worked. You have to be positive.

That's basically Mrs Pryors message and it's revolutionary in its application."

moondog Tue 25-Nov-08 10:09:28

Thanks.Yes, quite.

WilyWombat Tue 25-Nov-08 10:11:45

I think there is a whole load of middle ground between being "stepford" and a shrew. If I feel he should be tidying the kitchen when I put the children to bed I just say "the kitchen is yours" with a big smile OK he grumbles a bit but I come back to a clean kitchen.

Sometimes he hoovers and says "ive hoovered for you" I always point out that its not for me but for all of us.

If I worked full time then he would be doing 50% of child related/home related chores (or they wouldnt get done)

Colditz Tue 25-Nov-08 10:17:43

I'd rather keep the money and pay someone £5.73 an hour to stroke my head.

moondog Tue 25-Nov-08 10:18:15

It would cost more than that though Colditz....

EarthwormFrittataBugEnchilada Tue 25-Nov-08 10:19:24

I am reminded of "Men are From Mars etc."

I was having problems with my last boss (a man) and a friend recommended that I read it. I was a bit shock but she told me she had employed some of the techniques to great effect with her male boss.

Turns out, what you're supposed to do is continually massage the bloke's ego, to phrase sentences in such a way that they will not feel implied criticism - for eg, always say will you do something rather than can you do something, because the subtext of saying can you implies that they might not be able whereas with will they are generously agreeing to help you out hmm.

moondog Tue 25-Nov-08 10:21:15

it's helpful to stop thinking about it as a man/woman battle aND MORE AS TREATING SOMEONE A IN A CONSIDERATE FASHION. There are always two sides to every argument.Very few men are total pigs. All those slagging off their dhs on here are not i am sure, blameless themselves.

bythepowerofgreyskull Tue 25-Nov-08 10:21:30

You know, I don't think she is mad
I think that if your role within the partnership is staying at home and bringing up the children it is as important that you do that well as it is that your DH does his job well.
I don't see me giving DH his slippers and a drink when he comes in - however I do aim to be the best Stay at Home Mummy that I can be,

Also I think that she should be credited for giving a stuff about her marriage being in a pickle and instead of waiting for a miracle to happen she is actively trying something to keep it together, as with most things it may be that this is the start of the change in her marriage and it morphs into something that she and her DH are both happy with - surely that is better for her families happiness - and as long as she is happy with it then surely that is what matters.

I won't be joining you as I am a fully fledged FlyLady but Good luck to you!

Moondog: I c an see that it might work for the OP but she seemed to suggest that everyone else should do it, when there are better equally valid other ways of dealing with a lazy selfish man. Such as leaving him, or not getting involved with him in the first place, or not doing more than the bare minimum of housework and when he moans, telling him that he can clean if dust bothers him.

If you think that it's worth putting yourself in second place to keep your partner happy ie to you the benefits outweight the negatives, go ahead: but don't expect other people to see it the same way.

scattercushion Tue 25-Nov-08 10:24:19

crumsy, this thread is pretty scary. I for one, beautiful, was interested to read what you said and would like to know what the bible book suggests about getting him to open up.

moondog Tue 25-Nov-08 10:24:58

I don't think so at all SGB.
I wouldn't put up with any shit and I have married a wonderful wonderful man who more than pulls his weight with everything. I tell him that when he goes,I will write on his gravestone 'He dies with a teatowel in his hand'.smile

I am often surprised at how many women post on MN who seem to have got involved with appalling men,it has to be said.

I am merely pointing out that there are some other strategies which do work.

WilyWombat Tue 25-Nov-08 10:37:13

I do think how much this would work does depend on the type of man - you are never going to make a silk purse out of a sows ear are you grin

My hubby is naturally affectionate and supportive but like most people when you live together you tend to only notice the annoyances rather than appreciate good things. I dont think it hurts to try being verbally appreciative and see where it leads you - you dont have to turn into some simpering subservient wimp grin

"I am often surprised at how many women post on MN who seem to have got involved with appalling men,it has to be said" - ME TOO! I think some people are so desperate not to be alone that they settle for anything.

Don't know about celestial love but celestial diamonds would be all that was needed for me to act like this or maybe a new handbag and shoes but even then it would only last a couple of weeks!

Marriage is supposed to be a partnership, give and take on both sides and if you need to curtow to a man to get him to show you love and affection and open up to you you need to go to relate rather than wait on him hand and foot and absolve him of taking part in childcare and doing the washing up!

DH would hate me to be like this for him - he married an equal not a slave.

Anna8888 Tue 25-Nov-08 10:44:23

I am both surprised at how many women on MN seem to have got involved with appalling men, and also at how many women seem to think feminism and equality is all about aggression towards men.

Assertiveness is about getting what you want out of life. You absolutely do not need to resort to aggression as a matter of course in order to achieve this smile. I constantly tell DD (in front of DP) that if you give a man enough kisses, they all do exactly what you want wink. She practises on her brothers...

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 10:50:39

Well, this is a nicer place this morning! Hello lovelies.

Moondog, interesting what you said about applied behavioural principles.

My DH isn't lazy. Very hands-on Dad, did a lot of the housework anyway, and is amazing at looking after the DC and running house when I had to go away for work.

This I thought was interesting: The author mentions how much of the time a man is looking for admiration when he says something, and we miss that and say something accidentally annoying in reply, pushing him away without realising it.

EG, you know when men say, "I've washed the dishes", "I've hoovered", "I've fed the cat", etc? And we think, "YES? AND? I've done that a billion times since we married!"

He is actually looking for admiration when he tells us those things. So when we reply, "Did you? Well, aren't you brilliant. Look at that. Perfect!" we have given him what he wanted, and he feels happier and closer to us.

Why not? Doesn't hurt, does it?

Or, when he grumbles about money, he is often just looking for recognition and (again) admiration. She gives an example of a man going through the bills, saying, "It sure takes a lot of money to raise a family." Wife1 replies defensively, "It's not me spending it! I buy at Aldi and I haven't bought new clothes for years." this hurts his feelings - without realising, she is implying that he doesn't earn enough money.

Wife2 realises he is just looking for a bit of admiration so she replies, "Yes it does -- and aren't you doing a great job earning it!" and her DH glows with pride and feels happier.

I absolutely love it and am lapping it up.

junkcollector Tue 25-Nov-08 10:50:48

My DP says he finds it unnerving when I'm being nice to him.

Thing is, while being nice to PEOPLE is a good way to make them be nice back, so much of this type of book/method/theory etc seems to depend so much on women servicing men, on men's egos being flattered, and that being The Way It Should Be. Where are all the books telling men that complementing their partners and doing their share of domestic work are good routes to a happy marriage? Why aren't men being fed propaganda about marriage being a partnership?
There isn;t much propaganda telling men that actually women really want to service them, and to keep a little woman happy a man needs to be lazy, selfish and arrogant because he has a penis and she doesn't. Wonder why that is.

nickytwotimes Tue 25-Nov-08 11:00:21

What a lot of shit books like these spout.

We all like to be thanked for our hard work.

I'm at home ft atm, and when dh comes in, I tell him what I've done becasue I WANT PRAISE TOO.

Ffs, it's not rocket science. Which is just as well becasue that would be too much for my little female brain to cope with, wouldn't it? hmm

Jesus fucking Christ, it's like feminism never bloody happened.

DO you know what life was like for our predecessors? It was shit; druggery and subjegation for all but a few.

WilyWombat Tue 25-Nov-08 11:02:07

God I am such a feisty woman honestly theres no way I am subservient to anyone (sorry chuckling at the idea)

I just think if he has read with the children but not put out the rubbish - it doesnt hurt to focus on the good rather than just the negative.

If you are pleasant and it makes his behaviour better too does it matter who was nice first?

If on the other hand you are nice and he is the kind of oaf who just takes advantage then I'd save your energy and perhaps re-think your taste in men.

Anna8888 Tue 25-Nov-08 11:04:19

On Sunday a very old girlfriend of mine, who lives in NY, dropped round for supper, unexpectedly.

My DP made supper for all of us while GF and I had a nice relaxing chat on the sofa over a glass of wine with some cashew nuts.

After supper he told us to go back to the sofa while he cleared up the kitchen and put the children to bed.

When DP has his long-lost friends over, I do the same for him.

I think we have an equal relationship. We often look after one another.

Gemzooks Tue 25-Nov-08 11:07:16

I can see why it's working for you, beautiful, of course a relationship improves if one party decides to be specially nice to the other, and really keep it up for a while. The wise mumsnetter who said marriage is a competition in generosity is spot on. However, the 50s ness is truly sinister. as many others have said, it's all about the woman taking that step and scenting the candles etc.

I don't think there's anything wrong with you deciding to change things, and it's clearly working, and that's great. I can understand how tiredness, lethargy and fed up ness can just create an unpleasant atmosphere, and it needs an injection of enthusiasm and love from one partner to fire up the whole thing occasionally. I just personally find it creepy that you can accept it within this 50s stepford framework. Wouldn't it be even more empowering and work even better if it really came from your own personal philosophy, whatever that is?

You work part time, you have your own career, you are also earning money for the family. So I hope your husband appreciates that. And I hope you spend time thinking about what you need and where your career could go once your younger son is at school.

CatIsSleepy Tue 25-Nov-08 11:08:04

great christ almighty
marriage is a partnership right? to me that doesn't mean massaging a bloke's ego and making sure his every need is met instantly

you work together, you look after eachothers' needs, you are considerate to eachother-when one of you is feeling overworked/stressed/shit the other partner tries to do more for them til things even out

it cuts BOTH ways surely

am sure everything would be jsut dandy in every home in the land if every woman rolled over and had a lovely drink and a pair of pre-warmed slippers waiting for their man when he got home

have to stop now as my blood pressure is rising

plus am at work LOLOLOLOLOL

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 11:12:13

scattercushion: here's what she says about getting him to open up. This is massivly abridged, it's a he-uge book.

"...When a man's pride is wounded, he tends to build a wall of reserve, to protect himself from the pain of further humiliation. This is called his wall of reserve.

"When a man's reserve is present, it prrsents a problem: On the one hand he has a continuing need for admiration... which builds his pride, makes him feel manly. Therefore he longs to confide his feelings, to reveal his noble deeds and secret dreams with the hope of receiving admiration. On the other hand he is reluctant to do so. Why? Because he fears the possibility of ridicule or indifference. this would diminish his feeling of masculine pride.

"Nothing is so frightening to a man as the fear of making a fool of himself. He therefore subdues the impulse to seek admiration. Nothing but absolute certainty that his ideas will be met with appreciation rather than contempt or indifference will induce him to throw off his armor of reserve and reveal to others the things that mean most to him. And even when he does, the slightest hint of misunderstanding or disrespect will shatter the illusion and drive him behind his wall of reserve again...

"occasionally a man will clam up and not talk at all... he climbs inside himself, pulls down the blinds, making it impossible to get next to him. This is common. the higher the calibre of man, the more he tends to draw into himself when his pride is hurt.

"In an ideal marriage, there should be no wall of reserve. A man should feel comfortable expressing himself without fear of humiliation, confident his conversation will be met with sincere respect. if you detect this reserve in your husband, take measures to eliminate it. If you don't, he may seek the company of another woman who can fill this important need in himself.

"How to break down his Wall of Reserve...

You can't say things like, "You're so quiet" or "Why don't you ever talk to me", etc. You have to...

1. Accept him. When you overlook his faults, he will feel more confident in confiding.

2. Don't belittle him... You will have to completely elimiate any belittling remarks or forms of indifference.

3. Admire him. Your generous and sincere admiration will do more than any measure to win his confidence and break down his wall of reserve.

4. Don't be critical of others... He must be assured his confidences will be met with an admiring interpretation and not a fault-finding one.

5. Appreciate the good in others... the more ability you manifest as a critic, the less inclined he'll be to expose himself to your criticism. see the best in everyone, etc

6. Hold confidences sacred... If you disclose the secrets of others, he will take it for granted that you will disclose his also.

"When his reserve seems to be disappearing and he begins to disclose things about himself to admire, don't imagine his reserve has disappeared altogether. Further eliminate it by following these 6 steps... If your first reaction is always appreciative, he will lay bare before you every ideal, hope and motive that stirs within him. Admiration is too important to him to deny himself, once he's had the full enjoyment of it."

Anna8888 Tue 25-Nov-08 11:16:04

"My DP says he finds it unnerving when I'm being nice to him."

That is very shocking.

What are families for if not to be nice to one another?

cheesesarnie Tue 25-Nov-08 11:17:02

i think op was very brave to post.she even said in op 'I know it'll get scoffed at, but I don't care really'.

personally not for me though.

Mercy Tue 25-Nov-08 11:18:42

Feminism does seem to have gone unnoticed by some men and women.

Otherwise MN wouldn't have loads of threads from women complaining re their dhs. The current generation of adult men should in theory have been brought up with at least some awareness of feminism

sameagain Tue 25-Nov-08 11:31:53

I really get this Beautiful. If you are a SAHM, there is a real sense of job satisfaction in making sure the house runs smoothly and everyone is looked after (even if you're not actually, I have a demanding job 2 days per week)

On my days at home, I do my best to make sure DH doesn't have to do much at home (although he does do bath and bed-time which he sees as a privilege)

On the days I'm out at work, I am very much in charge when I'm there and much more likely to phone DH and say I'm running late/in the pub than he is and he's happy to support me and collect kids/get dinner etc, which I appreciate of him, as much as he does me on the days I'm at home.

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 11:39:03

This is from the website...

How Do You Rate Your Marriage?

It is a very good thing to rate your marriage, to see in what direction you need to grow. You can rate your marriage by taking the following test:

( ) Extremely Happy: My marriage is all I had hoped and dreamed it would be. My husband cherishes me and would do anything to make me happy. He treats me like a queen.
He is protective and devoted to me, also very romantic and often tells me he loves me.

( ) Very Happy: My husband loves me and we have a good relationship. We do have certain problems but I understand this is normal. He treats me with kindness, respect and often tells me he loves me.

( ) Happy: I have a good, solid marriage that I think will endure. We have some problems between us and frequent friction but I feel he essentially loves me, although he does not often express it. There is a strong bond between us.

( ) Mediocre: Although we have no serious, threatening problems, our marriage is rather dull and uninteresting. My husband is critical of me, neglects me, takes me for granted, doesn't do things for me or take me places. He usually shows little interest in making our marriage better.

( ) Unhappy: I am disappointed in my marriage. My husband doesn't understand me, is harsh and critical, spends most of his spare time away from home, is usually cold and indifferent, but not necessarily in sex. He keeps his thoughts to himself, seldom tells me he loves me and doesn't do anything he doesn't have to.

( ) Very Unhappy: My husband is cold and indifferent towards me and acts like he doesn't like or respect me. He is soften harsh and critical. He never does thoughtful things for me or appear to care about his home life or the children.

( ) Desperately Unhappy: My husband has told me he doesn't love me anymore, and that he doesn't enjoy being around me or the children. He doesn't have an interest in marriage, or making any improvements, and acts like marriage is something to be endured rather than enjoyed.

If you rate near the bottom, and think there is no hope for you, let me enlighten you. No matter where you rate on this chart you can rise to the top and even beyond. It is all a matter of following certain universal laws as I have explained in Fascinating Womanhood. Everything in this life is governed by law! There are laws governing science, math, chemistry, music, the planets as they move in their orbit, and the laws of nature and growing things. Just as certain, just as predictable are the laws of human relationships. If you are obedient to these laws you will have success. The success of Fascinating Womanhood has been phenomenal. In all of these 42 years since it was first published, the success has been tremendous, reaching women of every race, religion and culture.

dittany Tue 25-Nov-08 12:01:27

Somebody said this was sinister and I think it's right. Basically the argument is that to be loved by a man you have to play second fiddle to him (nobody give that separate spheres stuff - this is all about getting women back in the kitchen). Who wants love on those sort of terms?

Also someone else said this is fine if it's a choice. I might agree with that if women were equal to men now and this was just some anachronistic game that a few batty people played, but women are still routinely discriminated against, even in this country. Sexism and misogyny are not dead by any means. Not only that but it's a bloody insult to all those women in places like Afghanistan or Iran who have no choice but to be subservient and submissive to men because they might end up dead if they refuse.

Beautiful you're quoting the good stuff here. Why don't you quote the parts about how women have to submit to their husbands because it is our "natural" role?

you must have low self-esteem if you want to do this

"In all of these 42 years since it was first published, the success has been tremendous, reaching women of every race, religion and culture. "

That is the biggest load of bollocks I have heard in a while.

A billion women in every race, religion and culture aren't reading this book and putting its words into practice, they are shoe-horned into a traditional subservient role, squashing down their own needs and wants until they resemble nothing but servants.

Sorry, but this is really annoying me.

My grandmother was exactly likes this in the fifties - perfect wife with four children making sure her husband was happy and having absolutely no idea about financial matters. And what did he do? Right royally pissed on her (metaphorically!) - that's what. He shagged anything in sight and even bought home his mistresses so that they could all have dinner together - and my grandmother was such a doormat that she let it happen. He then left her and legged to another city, she was penniless and eventually had to find work in factories to make ends meet. Finally when she had enough money for a small mortgage, being a woman she couldn't get one, so her eldest son had to sign for her shock.

No wonder she was bitter and incredibly twisted in the end.

There is not a single way conceivable that I would want to be like that.

dittany Tue 25-Nov-08 12:12:02

I reckon this quotation by Virginia Woolf sums up at least some of what is going on here:

"Women have served all these centuries as looking glasses possessing the magic and delicious power of reflecting the figure of man, at twice its natural size."

It's great to have your ego stroked, who doesn't like that or the person doing it?

CatIsSleepy Tue 25-Nov-08 12:25:41

what happens if you have a shite day at home with the kids? and are in a terrible mood? have a headache? don't feel like having everything perfect when the Great man gets home?
do you not matter?

am sorry but this is absolute absolute crapola

or maybe i am exceedingly lucky in having a dh who doesn't expect his wife to be a doormat??

flipping freakin nora, honestly

Anna8888 Tue 25-Nov-08 12:28:43

"you must have low self-esteem if you want to do this"

IMVHO it is the women who are openly aggressive towards men and who are most vociferous about needing a job in order to feel fulfilled who have the lowest self-esteem.

It is high self-esteem that enables you to take control of your own life.

RamblingRosa Tue 25-Nov-08 12:33:31

Blimey shock. Haven't read this whole site but the OP made me feel a bit queasy. Do people really buy this sort of shite?

magicwashingpot Tue 25-Nov-08 12:35:32

BEAUTIFUL, I have been reading this with great intrest. IMHO most of what you are doing gets dressed up as bing FLY on other threads, the rest is you feeling better about yourself. WHATS THE PROBLEM???????????

ohIdoliketobebesidethe Tue 25-Nov-08 12:38:38

I think Beautiful has hit upon some truths.

Relationships blossom when the individuals feel empowered. For me that happened when I went back to work ft post baby but I can see something like that happening for Beautiful as she has felt empowered by trying to do her SAHM job well.

Likewise the advice about having peaceful evenings is great. I am on mat leave now and feed the kids at 5pm (was 6.15pm when I was at work). They are in bed or ready for stories when Dh gets home. BUT I do this for me as well as him. It gives us time to be adults and look after each other.

I think people do respond to being thanked and appreciated for what they do. My dh and I are always thanking each to other for whatever meanial thing we have recently done. I actually think he first started doing it but it is a habit with both of us now.

You can do all those things and enjoy doing them but it is very frightening when it is dressed up as being for HIM. Do it for yourself and you may feel even more empowered by it.

magicwashingpot Tue 25-Nov-08 12:43:15

Yes, the same as idoliketobebesidethe. Its the same at our house - kids settled ready for bed when dh comes home = lovely time for us all. Kids not ready = havoc + stressed parents. DH helps out plenty when he is at home. He loves having his tea ready. I love him stroking my hair/giving me a massage. I also love cooking - shoot me!

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 12:47:45

About the doormatty thing...

I always cook (I like to, and DH can't), and felt it was fair that DH cleared the table/loaded the dishwasher afterwards.

He did this sometimes but more often didn't. or he left it SO late that I got annoyed and did it myself. I nagged, I asked, I "helpfully reminded", I pointed out how it was FAIR that he did it... Nothing.

Since I started this new regime, obviously I have no expectation that he clears the table. You know what? He now says, "Sit down. it is MY job to clear the table." And he does it all proudly. Without being reminded. Happily. Off his own back. Isn't that what we all want?!

Gemzooks Tue 25-Nov-08 12:49:13

nothing wrong with making things nice for your other half and being nice to them. That's what marriage is. It's the scary stepford context that's the problem, some recasting of the social norms of the past that stilted our mothers' and grandmothers' lives, and the idea that it's the woman's job to save the marriage and make everything ok by massaging the husband's ego with NOTHING IN RETURN.

Anna8888, I can see the link between aggression and low self esteem, but why would feeling fulfilled through work mean a woman had low self-esteem?

TheGoat Tue 25-Nov-08 12:59:42

mil advised me to buy a corby trouser press 'as a present to myself' when i married dh. but even she would probably tellyou where to shove this book.

thumbwitch Tue 25-Nov-08 13:03:28

Beautiful I would just like to say that I rate my marriage as number 2: Very Happy on your scale - I would love for it to be number 1 on that scale but I can't see it happening, even if I employed some of your ideas from this book because I KNOW DH would just think - Yeah! This is how it should be!

He has latent chauvinistic tendencies - for e.g. can't for the life of him see that it is any of his business to clean the house, and does have to be persuaded to do the hoovering for me (I have bad sciatica and hoovering is quite painful). I do praise him already when he does stuff but he is a laurel-sitter.

The thing that saves us from more problems is that we are both quite similar people and self-aware - he is fighting his latent chauvinism but if I pandered to them in any way, they would spring to the fore.

I disagree Anna

DH and I both treat each other in a respectful and loving way because we want to and we always have done. If I am having a hard time he takes over all the domestic stuff. And vice versa.

For a woman to want to do it without expecting it in return seems odd.

And what is all this "openly aggressive towards men?"

You don't have to be aggressive towards someone to not want to be a total doormat

RubyRioja Tue 25-Nov-08 13:07:36

Do you ever wonder about the dynamics in other people's marriages?

I would say my marriage is very happy, and we are equal partners, despite me being sahm and controller of finances (perhaps the two balance out).

But ages ago I read The Care and Feeding of Husbands and realised that I was often nicer to people in the street than I was to my DH when we played competitive tiredness, who's turn it was to do stuff etc. We treat each other with kindness and consideration (seriously it can be so lovely to have someone do something for you when you are perfectly capable of doing it) so long as it is mutual.

Dh knows the way to my heart is to de-nit the children grin

Sometimes its hard to be a woman
Giving all your love to just one man
You'll have bad times
And he'll have good times
Doing things that you don't understand
But if you love him you'll forgive him
Even though he's hard to understand
And if you love him
Oh be proud of him
'Cause after all he's just a man
Stand by your man
Give him two arms to cling to
And something warm to come to
When nights are cold and lonely
Stand by your man
And tell the world you love him
Keep giving all the love you can
Stand by your man
Stand by your man
And show the world you love him
Keep giving all the love you can
Stand by your man

MarlaSinger Tue 25-Nov-08 13:12:46

A bizarre and interesting thread.

You do not have to be aggressive towards men to see them as your equal, do you? Or to want to work, for yourself, or to put makeup on because you like it and couldn't actually give a stuff what your DH thinks?

OrmIrian Tue 25-Nov-08 13:20:07

Well if it works hmm

I suspect my DH would smell a rat if I started acting like that.

If it's all about being appreciative and kind to each other, then that's fine with me and I know that when we both make an effort life is less bumpy, but it has to be mutual.

Anyway I won't fall on my knees and worship any man for less than 400k a year. I have my principles <outraged sniff>

RubyRioja Tue 25-Nov-08 13:20:48

You have to admire principles like OrmIrions

OrmIrian Tue 25-Nov-08 13:22:28

Thanks ruby. Some things are worth making a stand for wink

scattercushion Tue 25-Nov-08 13:26:02

Thanks beautiful! The 'not being critical' thing certainly speaks to my condition. I thought you might like this too, it's about the different ways men and women talk by a sociolinguist. Basically understanding why we get in a muddle with the opposite sex and how to avoid it. a good article

Not a million miles from what you're talking about - ie how to get out of the negative rut in a marriage.

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 13:30:47

This is not about "getting nothing in return"! You get shedloads back! If you wanted to, you could very easily use the book to completely manipulate your DH in order to get everything you ever wanted out of him -- diamonds, sex, 24/7 hair-stroking, money, attention. That's not what I'm doing (except for the hair-stroking, of course), but you could.

I can see why you'd all think I was a TOTAL nutter if you thought I was giving & giving literally to get NOTHING in return. But it's not like that. You get your DH's affection -- hand-holding, sex, kissing, sparkley eyes, compliments. You get his attention -- he rushes home to tell you stuff, he opens up, he confides in you. You get his protection -- some of you will balk, but he looks after you, carries things to spare you the effort, he would Hoover if it hurt you, Thumbwitch, because he would want to protect you from pain. My DH is HAPPILY helping round the house WITHOUT BEING ASKED.

We don't need our husbands to do things like this for us, but some women really really like it when they do. I hated, for example, paying for stuff when we went out. I don't know why, I just hated it. I wanted him to want to pay. Even if it came from the joint account, it was the principle! The other day he started to say, "Have you got any money?", then stopped himself. When we got to the cafe, he paid for everything willingly. (Custy will assume that was because he's siphoned all my money out of the account, but it wasn't!)

I would rather have DH's adoration than have him empty the dishwasher. I could pay a cleaner to do that. I don't want us to blokey equals, like flatmates. I want him to be protective, adoring and romantic. Off his own back.

Lots of you might have marriages like that anyway, and good for you! Mine wasn't. I fought for 50% of everything and we were competitive. Now we are not. Lots of you might not want a marriage like that! Again, whatever works for you. I'm not trying to recruit, I just wondered if anyone fancied trying it.
This is not about "getting nothing in return"! You get shedloads back! If you wanted to, you could very easily use the book to completely manipulate your DH in order to get everything you ever wanted out of him -- diamonds, sex, 24/7 hair-stroking, money, attention. That's not what I'm doing (except for the hair-stroking, of course), but you could.

I can see why you'd all think I was a TOTAL nutter if you thought I was giving & giving literally to get NOTHING in return. But it's not like that. You get your DH's affection -- hand-holding, sex, kissing, sparkley eyes, compliments. You get his attention -- he rushes home to tell you stuff, he opens up, he confides in you. You get his protection -- some of you will balk, but he looks after you, carries things to spare you the effort, he would Hoover if it hurt you, Thumbwitch, because he would want to protect you from pain. My DH is HAPPILY helping round the house WITHOUT BEING ASKED.

We don't need our husbands to do things like this for us, but some women really really like it when they do. I hated, for example, paying for stuff when we went out. I don't know why, I just hated it. I wanted him to want to pay. Even if it came from the joint account, it was the principle! The other day he started to say, "Have you got any money?", then stopped himself. When we got to the cafe, he paid for everything willingly. (Custy will assume that was because he's siphoned all my money out of the account, but it wasn't!)

I would rather have DH's adoration than have him empty the dishwasher. I could pay a cleaner to do that. I don't want us to blokey equals, like flatmates. I want him to be protective, adoring and romantic. Off his own back.

Lots of you might have marriages like that anyway, and good for you! Mine wasn't. I fought for 50% of everything and we were competitive. Now we are not.

I can't explain it. You'd have to read he book, or try a few bits yourself. I'm sure I'm being unconvincing.

It's like... You have been feeding your cat with dog food for years, and he is withdrawn and listless. Then you swap to feeding him cat food and he is suddenly full of energy, vigour and enthusiasm.

This is not about "getting nothing in return"! You get shedloads back! If you wanted to, you could very easily use the book to completely manipulate your DH in order to get everything you ever wanted out of him -- diamonds, sex, 24/7 hair-stroking, money, attention. That's not what I'm doing (except for the hair-stroking, of course), but you could.

I can see why you'd all think I was a TOTAL nutter if you thought I was giving & giving literally to get NOTHING in return. But it's not like that. You get your DH's affection -- hand-holding, sex, kissing, sparkley eyes, compliments. You get his attention -- he rushes home to tell you stuff, he opens up, he confides in you. You get his protection -- some of you will balk, but he looks after you, carries things to spare you the effort, he would Hoover if it hurt you, Thumbwitch, because he would want to protect you from pain. My DH is HAPPILY helping round the house WITHOUT BEING ASKED.

We don't need our husbands to do things like this for us, but some women really really like it when they do. I hated, for example, paying for stuff when we went out. I don't know why, I just hated it. I wanted him to want to pay. Even if it came from the joint account, it was the principle! The other day he started to say, "Have you got any money?", then stopped himself. When we got to the cafe, he paid for everything willingly. (Custy will assume that was because he's siphoned all my money out of the account, but it wasn't!)

I would rather have DH's adoration than have him empty the dishwasher. I could pay a cleaner to do that. I don't want us to blokey equals, like flatmates. I want him to be protective, adoring and romantic. Off his own back.

Lots of you might have marriages like that anyway, and good for you! Mine wasn't. I fought for 50% of everything and we were competitive. Now we are not. You might not want a marriage like that! Again, it's up to you.

I can't explain it. You'd have to read he book, or try a few bits yourself. I'm sure I'm being unconvincing.

It's like... You have been feeding your cat with dog food for years, and he is withdrawn and listless. Then you swap to feeding him cat food and he is suddenly full of energy, vigour and enthusiasm.

It's like... You have been feeding your cat with dog food for years, and he is withdrawn and listless. Then you swap to feeding him cat food and he is suddenly full of energy, vigour and enthusiasm.

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 13:31:38

so good i'll say it twice! Woah, sorry.

OrmIrian Tue 25-Nov-08 13:36:50

I can beleieve that it works beautiful. I really can. I've discovered the power of positivity and appreciation in my marriage. But I can't do it all the time. I try for civility and partnership. And I expect him to want to do the same for me.

And I love paying for things. I almost always pay for meals - confuses the hell out of the waiter sometimes. That doesn't mean anything. I earn more than he does. So I have the money to spend.

You get your DH's affection -- hand-holding, sex, kissing, sparkley eyes, compliments. You get his attention -- he rushes home to tell you stuff, he opens up, he confides in you. You get his protection -- some of you will balk, but he looks after you, carries things to spare you the effort, he would Hoover if it hurt you, Thumbwitch, because he would want to protect you from pain. My DH is HAPPILY helping round the house WITHOUT BEING ASKED.

I get that anyway!
All of it

as does he

Why would you want to be married to someone if they didn't give you all that and vice versa? Surely a marriage is a partnership.

moondog Tue 25-Nov-08 13:40:29

I think the trouble with the book you are reading Beautiful is that it tries to delve into the inner psyche of men and women which riles women beyond belief (in that there is often almost accepted assumption that men hard wired to be knobs).

Applied Behaviour Analysis doesn't do this.It does not do 'mental' stuff. It does not dwell on thoughts and feelings and natural characteristics.It does not deny that these things exist but as ABA is a science its stance is that they are not measurable and as such it is not fesible to try and quantify or qualify them.

Its emphasis is on measurable changes in behaviour as a result of manipulation of the environment (and we are part of environment.

Ooh i could do you a smashing standard celeration chart measuring how your giving of complements coincides with a decrease in him saying critical or negative things.

And therein would lie your proof that it works.

moondog Tue 25-Nov-08 13:42:01

And I am supposed to be hard at work right now, writing v dry policy paper on how ABA fits in with our SALT service but this is more fun.

TheMadHouse Tue 25-Nov-08 13:42:07

I think that a marriage should be a partnership and that we do need to recognise that men just arnt wired the same way as we are.

I think that they sometimes dont always see the wood for the trees and sometimes they do say stuff again and again lie "I have put the washer on" they are not saying for a pat on the back good dog style, but just so we know.

My DH has his jobs, I have mine, we love each other and do not take each other for granted. I am lucky in that he has taken time out from work when both boys were smaller to be with them and me. He know what looking after children entails and loves me for me.

I actually want to point out that what Beautiful is saying is not wrapped up as fLY. FLy is for us people that are crap at the housework and that it doesnt come natural too. One good thing about it is that DH knows what I do and will take over.

RubyrubyrubyRobinRedbreast Tue 25-Nov-08 13:43:36
ToThrottleablackbird Tue 25-Nov-08 13:47:42

I get all that and more!!! And I 'hardly get off my fat pert arse' grin dp notices when I do things as I leave something that long beforehand that you cannot not notice grin
If you want to do more than you actually need to, feel free, but I wont be joining you.

dittany Tue 25-Nov-08 13:47:51

Come on Beautiful, you've only been doing this for three weeks (although I'm sure it was you who was touting the surrendered wife stuff before), come back and tell us how things are going in six months.

You do sound thoroughly brainwashed by the book. You're talking exactly like all the stuff I read on the website. grin

You're also avoiding the main argument of the book that it is natural for women to be submissive to their male partners. Do you agree with that?

Gemzooks Tue 25-Nov-08 13:48:04

The fly thing scares me too, to be honest. It seems very much part of the same stepford thing.

ohIdoliketobebesidethe Tue 25-Nov-08 13:49:21

Countess Dracula - I completely agree with you. I also get all that without having to be subservient. I have been wondering what we did right. I'm just very glad I haven't had to think too consciously about how to make it work as it would have killed it for me.

ohIdoliketobebesidethe Tue 25-Nov-08 13:50:26

Sorry- what if fly [thick emoticon]

ohIdoliketobebesidethe Tue 25-Nov-08 13:50:39

is not if

LindenAvery Tue 25-Nov-08 13:53:22

Beautiful,if this works for you and you and your family are happy then surely there is no need to discuss?

I seem to recall from part of my parenting studies that 'traditional roles' can result in the highest satisfaction levels for couples, PROVIDING that there is mutual respect on BOTH sides and a commitment to maintaining the partnership (understanding that each is necessary to make it work).

So if everything is done on the part of empowering you to take control and responsibility for certain things and not merely as pandering to your husband's needs such that you (or him for that matter) are neglecting yours then does it matter what other people think?

I think it's true that certain men would take advantage of this situation and certain women if the roles were reversed, plus I also think financial decisions should still be dealt with by both. At least you may be asking people to hold a mirror up to their own relationships, as from experience when parents are asked when was the last time you felt appreciated by your OH and reply 'can't remember or a long time ago' when you then ask them when did THEY say something nice the answer tends to be the same.

dittany Tue 25-Nov-08 13:58:09

This thread was about trying to suck other women in find new participants. It's what the Stepford Wives did too.shock It's not enough being subservient to your partner, other women have to be persuaded to do it too so what you're doing doesn't look so bloody outrageous.

Gemzooks Tue 25-Nov-08 13:58:54

ohido, check out the good housekeeping threads, it's called Fly Lady. You have to lace up your shoes and shine your sink every day. It's awful stuff.

CatIsSleepy Tue 25-Nov-08 13:59:24

dittany-was just going to say beautiful sounds a bit brainwashed

I'm sorry this all just sounds weird and manipulative to me

why not just be nice to eachother, respect eachothers' feelings? not because you are expecting a result of some kind but because presumably you love eachother and have entered into a life partnership together and because you respect eachother? all mutual touchy-feely benefits should flow from that surely? whether or not you regularly don an apron

MarlaSinger Tue 25-Nov-08 14:00:09

ROFLLE at Ruby

I don't do any of this crap and my DP is not 'withdrawn and listless'. If that was your DH before you started this I think you have other problems

TheMadHouse Tue 25-Nov-08 14:00:41

Gemzooks, you do not Have to do anything, you find a routine that suits you. If you are going to critise, then get it right grin

Gemzooks Tue 25-Nov-08 14:02:30

I'm not claiming to be an expert on the fly lady techniques or philosophy. However when you look at her website, a lot of it is scary 1950s stuff, and the focus is on being an old fashioned housewife, and it has a religious element. I just don't like the tone. If people find it helpful, that's great.

Gemzooks Tue 25-Nov-08 14:09:18

this is a quote from the fly website:

'That shiny sink is a reflection of the love that you have for yourself.'

ohIdoliketobebesidethe Tue 25-Nov-08 14:10:23

wow Gemzooks. Thanks.
I shall go and look in amazement and be more thankful than ever that I will be back at full time work in Feb and can afford a cleaner.

TheMadHouse Tue 25-Nov-08 14:11:56

I am a natural lazy arsed person. My normal thing would be to stay in Pj's and do playdough all day with the boys grin, only that doesnt clean the beds, get the shopping in or provide clean clothes etc.

Fly provides me with a routine. I ignore all the smaltzy american stuff and have a routine. My house is clean (not always tidy), my boys bet quality time and we are all happy.

TheMadHouse Tue 25-Nov-08 14:13:08

ohIdoliketobebesidethe - Yes a cleaner would be the solution, but no money to pay for one grin. So it is me or DH (when he gets home from work)

Gemzooks Tue 25-Nov-08 14:23:55

madhouse I don't mean to knock it per se, and I've found you have to try and find time saving methods when trying to tidy up, cook, look after kids etc, whether working or not, it's just I resent a lot of the domestic tasks so much! We do have a cleaner by the way so my whinge is not even justified. I used to hate it even before kids/living with DH...

TheMadHouse Tue 25-Nov-08 14:28:43

Dont worry Gemzooks. I am feeling a bit defensive today. I am not naturally good at housework things. I just want to play grin

Rhubarb Tue 25-Nov-08 14:31:24

Did you know that if you fart through an air freshener, your fart actually does come out smelling sweetly?

Wouldn't it be a good idea to patent a tiny little air freshener thing that sits in peoples grots where their bumhole is, so that when they fart, the gases released can be in such lovely fragrances as Spring Blush and Primrose Delight!

You saw it here first!

It sounds like you have actually tried that Rhubarb hmm

sweetgrapes Tue 25-Nov-08 14:39:11

pmsl at fart freshener!!

Rhubarb Tue 25-Nov-08 14:40:28

Well you can't expect me to sell it without testing the product first Kathy! tut tut!

TheMadHouse Tue 25-Nov-08 14:40:42

hmm Yes and I shit gold bricks grin

Rhubarb Tue 25-Nov-08 14:43:35

Wow that's quite a talent! Your bumhole must be pretty big!

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 14:44:01

rubarb ,the fart freshner , does it come in man size ???? i need some of that for dh, travel size will do the kids and i dont need any , cause us "ladies" have glass arses (too delicate for that kind of thing! pmsl grin

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 14:45:34

mad house shitting gold bricks - thats handy with the credit crunch..... lol

Gemzooks Tue 25-Nov-08 14:45:53

could it not ignite?

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 14:47:36

what,? the bricks? nah iv heard shit doesnt burn!

Ohforfoxsake Tue 25-Nov-08 14:47:53

haha haha When I saw this thread I though 'lets have a look. Things are shite here, maybe I need to be abit more forgiving and nicer to DP'.

Bugger me! DP already gets a heck of a lot of these things already - kids always bathed and ready for bed, dinner every night, comes home to a clean & tidy house, I don't expect him to do anything (because he's a fucking PITA when he gets involved quite frankly wink) and there is no hair-stroking/diamond rings/general appreciation or adoration here.

Anyone suggest a book on 'how to stop the lucky bastard being an ungrateful git' grin

Rhubarb Tue 25-Nov-08 14:48:17

Well I think you'll find that one size usually fits all. You stick it to the inside of the grots, like a panty liner, and the fart passes through the in-built filters and releases the tiny droplets of fragrance. The fart freshener also heats up when the fragrance is released so that you get a lovely warm feeling up yer bum!

AnneOfAvonlea Tue 25-Nov-08 14:48:36

I wondered how long it would take for this thread to bring out the anti-flylady lot.

I follow flylady. I dont wear lace up shoes and I dong for in for the secular stuff. However, the principles of creating a routine that fits in with your life is a good one imo.

With regards to the OP, I agree with Custardo in the main. It sounds as if you have some issues with how you and your DH view each others roles. I'm not sure becoming a Stepford wife is going to fix that. Perhaps you could just talk to each other....

Ohforfoxsake Tue 25-Nov-08 14:48:53

oh. I see the thread has moved on. blush


AnneOfAvonlea Tue 25-Nov-08 14:49:33

that should have read 'dont go in for' as opposed to 'dong' blush grin

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 14:49:34

oh you mean the fart freshner???? grini suppose it could all that mixind of gases and that, but its one way to get the hot ass ive always wanted!!!! lol

sweetgrapes Tue 25-Nov-08 14:50:59

"lovely warm feeling up yer bum"
Now that changes everything. After all, that's what I want from this Stepford thing - a lovely warm feeling.

Ditch being nice to dh, I'll have the air freshner. It'll probably work better anyway...

Rhubarb Tue 25-Nov-08 14:51:15

You'll be pleased to know that it presents no fire hazards whatsoever!

I'm rather worried about Anne's "dong" now though.

sweetgrapes Tue 25-Nov-08 14:51:50

soory.I mean the fart freshner. Already have an air freshner.

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 14:53:11

smell better anyway! do you think if i adopt the "principle" dh will start farting in the garden instead of the house , feck id settle for no more dutch ovens!grin

OrmIrian Tue 25-Nov-08 14:54:15

Holding a lighted match to a fart is quite a good air freshener. It even works on DH's offerings. Smells like just extinguished candles ...all christmassy.

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 14:54:32

annes got a dong???? wtf is a dong????

Rhubarb Tue 25-Nov-08 14:55:28

It's the perfect Christmas gift! Now when you want to freshen things up a bit, you just press their bellies to make them fart the lovely scent of oranges and cinnamon into your homes, whilst knowing that you have just pleasured your man at the same time with a shot of warm, fraganced air up his hairy arse.

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 14:56:38

ormran, holding a lighted match to one of my dh farts is not a good idea, it would explode the house( ladies he is nose-rottingly bad)

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 14:58:21

oh rubarb ,your cracking me up!!! lol

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 14:59:36

by the way , how did u know my dh has a hairy arse?shock

Rhubarb Tue 25-Nov-08 15:00:04

Well as long as your crack smells nice, that's alright!

Got to pick brats up now. Happy farting!

AnneOfAvonlea Tue 25-Nov-08 15:50:40

grin I did correct my dong!

Gemzooks Tue 25-Nov-08 16:32:19

what's a dutch oven? Is it some kind of crude metaphor?

anyfucker Tue 25-Nov-08 16:38:13

errr, dsr, don't all blokes have a hairy arse ??

Rhubarb, sorry but someone has beaten you to it.

I agree that Fly is just the same ("Women! Learn to eat shit and smile! It's your DESTINY to be a domestic appliance!"). And ALL this stuff about male and female 'hardwiring' is arrant bullshit: it always boils down to women having to accept lesser status and modify their behaviour or men won't love them (as though that makes it worthwhile - while it's nice to have a nice partner, it's not worth sacrificing every scrap of self-respect in order to have a partner at all).

ToThrottleablackbird Tue 25-Nov-08 17:30:13

Haha I have to buy one of those for dp!

RachelG Tue 25-Nov-08 17:38:48

A friend of mine tried this, and she lasted about 3 weeks. Of course her husband loved it at first, but then his standards got higher and higher, and gradually even her very very best wasn't enough. He started moaning about tiny things and expecting more and more.

I saw a programme about it on TV once. A woman was doing it, and feeling very happy etc etc, until her husband decided to let their young son ride a motorbike. In good dutiful wife style, she didn't question his judgement, but you could see it was taking every ounce of strength she had to keep calm. The son was fine of course, but she was a wreck by the end.

Not worth it in my opinion, but then I'm single so maybe that proves me wrong!!

dittany Tue 25-Nov-08 17:40:22

The best thing that has come out of this thread are the charcoal fart busters. grin

Have you, er, got a little problem in that department, Dittany? grin

I haven't read most of the posts on this thread, just the first page, so I apologise if I am just repeating what has already been said.

Whilst I don't agree with the OP wholeheartedly, I would say that I get on much better with DH (and everyone else) when I accept them just the way they are. That means not expecting my DH (or anyone else) to change or do things differently because it'd suit me.

Honestly, I'd like my DH to lose a bit of weight and be more vocal about what bothers him (he's the strong but silent type). He'd probably like me to lose some weight too and be less vocal!

I can change me, but not him.

That doesn't mean I condone everything he says or does. And I don't have to. Acceptance does not mean agreement.

The farting tips are great btw.

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 19:34:49

Talking about farts is rather masculine, ladies. Do please remember you are on the Stepford thread. thank you.

(Ruby -- you made me LOLOLOLOL with that youtube post. I did seem to be suffering from some malfunctions, didn't I?)

I'll just die if I don't get that recipe. I'll just die if I don't get that recipe. I'll just die... <fizz, boom>

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 19:39:20

Anyway, this is all a bit non-Stepfordy anyway, as I'm away this weeking finishing a book (writing, not reading!) while DH is a SAHD with the DC. He is doing all housework. smile

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 19:40:54

Thanks everyone for all your input. I'll get DH to add it to my RAM so I can think about your comments when I get back home.

Amberc Tue 25-Nov-08 19:50:42

I haven't read this whole thread so apols if someone has already asked this but is there such a thing as a similar book/movement for men? No? Thought not.

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 20:24:25

grin GEMZOOKS a dutch oven is when your dh farts in bed and pulls the covers over your head so you can "enjoy" the fragrance.... eeeewww .thats what this is all about BEAUTIFUL IS WRITTING A BOOK - wonder what about? hmm

moondog Tue 25-Nov-08 20:33:39

'I don't want us to blokey equals, like flatmates. I want him to be protective, adoring and romantic. Off his own back. '

I like that Beautiful. A lot. Me too.

mamhaf Tue 25-Nov-08 20:48:27

Haven't read all of this, but I'm going to be blunt...

Isn't there enough room for misogyny in the world without encouraging even more?

Beautiful, have you no awareness of what the women's liberation movement of the 60s and 70s fought for - and I don't mean bra-burning, but equal pay, maternity rights etc and most of all being treated as an equal not a servant?

And you want to go back to being a 1950s housewife?

Better stock up on some anti-depressants then.

anyfucker Tue 25-Nov-08 20:54:19

and some valium

and some gin

Lurkinaround Tue 25-Nov-08 20:55:10

I think Burt Bacharach sums it all up nicely in this song, the silly old fart.

"Wives And Lovers"
(Burt Bacharach & Hal David)

Hey! Little Girl
Comb your hair, fix your makeup
Soon he will open the door
Don't think because there's a ring on your finger
You needn't try anymore

For wives should always be lovers too
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you
I'm warning you...

Day after day
There are girls at the office
And men will always be men
Don't send him off with your hair still in curlers
You may not see him again

For wives should always be lovers too
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you
He's almost here...

Hey! Little girl
Better wear something pretty
Something you'd wear to go to the city and
Dim all the lights, pour the wine, start the music
Time to get ready for love
Time to get ready
Time to get ready for love

Lurkinaround Tue 25-Nov-08 20:56:49

I mean Hal David. Burt did the music. I bet he agreed with him though.

thumbwitch Tue 25-Nov-08 22:09:33

I can't go back and read all the farting stuff, I haven't the energy, but I will add that this is THE BEST stuff ever for neutralising the stench odour - my DH has absolutely rancid farts and it even quashes them!
If you prefer a more floral variety, then this is the one for you - equally as effective.

snowleopard Tue 25-Nov-08 22:13:29

OK so I asked DP what he'd think if I did this. After laughing long and hard at the very idea, he said he thought I might manage it for a few weeks, but once a month a special van would have to come and pick me up and take me to a padded room with lots of pictures of smug men. All the "captured wives" (I'd told him it was surrendered wives/fascinating womanhood but he misremembered it ) would be allowed to spend a week in the room screaming, swearing and violently clawing at the pictures of men for the duration of their PMT, then they'd be packed back off home. "Otherwise it wouldn't work" declared DP.

I actually quite fancy trying this!

Not really for the attention or adoration as I do get quite a lot of that and our relationship is good

But I'd like to take more pride in being a SAHM and maybe stop a bit of competitive tiredness

Quattrocento Tue 25-Nov-08 22:37:25

<waves at the loon>

Still here then? Tell me, in your stepford life, have you had a severe reduction in your active vocabulary? Because they did that to the Stepford Wives didn't they? Took away their brains and simplified their vocabularies. Tell me, can you still read? Or can you only read simple stuff?

anyfucker Tue 25-Nov-08 22:41:13

aww quattro, stop baiting the loon grin

dsrplus8 Tue 25-Nov-08 23:31:10

hello girls , is it vodka time again??? what have i missed?grin

Quattrocento Tue 25-Nov-08 23:32:57

Yes it is. The loon's not come out yet. Prob been ordered to bed. Am very disappointed ...

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 23:38:40

<waves back>

Let me check... Well, it seems I can still read simple, boring and unfunny stuff, as your message came through perfectly.

Quattrocento Tue 25-Nov-08 23:43:37

<Pats the OP's head>

Well done, you understood the word "vocabulary". Impressive.

So tell us about your day. Was it full of rapturous moments (you can google "rapturous" if it's a word that's been deleted from your vocabulary).

Did you bake submissively? Is the house sparkling? Did your DH pat your head?

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 23:52:42

Would you like to borrow my Humour program? I think it's compatible with older hardware like yours.

Quattrocento Tue 25-Nov-08 23:55:45

<runs humour programme disk>

Have you been feeding your cat with dogfood again?

<Dies laughing>

BEAUTlFUL Tue 25-Nov-08 23:57:35

<If only you would>

Quattrocento Wed 26-Nov-08 00:04:08

<revived by LOLing at the feeding cat with dogfood line - is priceless - you need to write a book>

No seriously though, I need to know. Have you gone the second mile today?

<runs screaming with laughter from the thread>

Astrophe Wed 26-Nov-08 00:09:37

This thread is interesting. Mostly you see the same old threads rehashed again and again on MN.

I have a friend who is from South America. She is gorgeous, itelligent, studying law, confident and bubbly, married to a nice guy who works full time, with two small boys.

She totally accepts and expects to do the bulk of the domestic tasks - washing, keeping the household running and tidy etc, and can't realy understand why this is such a problem for Western women (ie me!) she sees it as an honour to be able to do such important things for her family and a source of pride to do these things well.

Her DH is lovely - certainly happy to help as well, and spends loads of time with the kids on the weekends. He treats her with so much respect and really admirers the work she does in the home - I think because she places so much importance on it herself.

She says she feels quite sorry for us westerners, who have been taught to be so dissatisfied with our womanhood. Her comment has really stayed with me.

dsrplus8 Wed 26-Nov-08 00:13:56

hello beautiful,have you been let on to play??grin

dsrplus8 Wed 26-Nov-08 00:17:59

domestic tasks and husband worship has got nothing to do with womanhood!!!!

Quattrobeautiful Wed 26-Nov-08 00:26:38

Wow, this really works

I've learned "to completely manipulate" my DH.

I've given up my rather well-paid job and handed over all the money to him.

I've got all his attention - even more than I had before. He even talks to me now. My DH is HAPPILY helping round the house WITHOUT BEING ASKED. (he did this before but obviously i am consciously manipulating him into it now).

I too hated paying for stuff when we went out. I wanted him to want to pay. Now he's got all my money, he pays willingly.

UMHMM Just off for a session of celestial love now ...

Astrophe Wed 26-Nov-08 00:36:55

No, she doesn't worship her DH. She does adore him, and he adores her - its lovely. It works for them, they are really happy.

I think it horribly patronising to suggest that someone is downtrodden or unbalanced just because their relationship works differently to your own, or because they make a choice you wouldn't.

I just think my mates perspective is really interesting - she actually feels she is at an advantage because she and her DH have clear roles, and they both take pride in them.

Obviously the roles of DH and DW don't have to be the 'traditional' ones, but I do think a couple that can settle contentedly into roles, rather than resenting their roles (whatever they may be), is at a real advantage.

Anyway, feminism was all about ensuring choice and equality for women, not making women feel that they MUST regject traditional roles even if they don't want to.

Do we all think BEAUTIFUL should feel guilty for attempting to make her marriage better? Shes making a choice - not the one many of us might make - but good luck to her I say.

BEAUTlFUL Wed 26-Nov-08 00:37:16


BEAUTlFUL Wed 26-Nov-08 00:48:03

Bloody hell, Q. You're going the second mile with this. Was it worthy of a name-change and a careful read of the entire thread, just to remake the same point you made yesterday?

I can't even be bothered to type your name out, and you've created an entirely new log-in based on mine! This is not an equal relationship. You're putting in more than you're getting back. But as long as you're OK with that...

Read this out to DH who has promised to become a Stepford husband when he becomes a SAHD in January.

CatIsSleepy Wed 26-Nov-08 09:59:40

Beautiful-i think maybe if you stroked QC's hair that would even things out a bit...

snowleopard Wed 26-Nov-08 10:18:31

Let's just get one thing straight. Just because a woman chooses to do something, doesn't mean there's no sexism going on, doesn't mean she's not oppressed, doesn't mean feminism has met all its aims, does not mean all is fine and dandy. Women choose to become lapdancers or to go on Big Brother and get their tits out/whore themselves for attention and fame. Women choose to stay with men who beat them up, even to the point where they end up dead. In some societies, women choose to force their daughters and granddaughters to be circumcised because they are so concerned about what might be thought of them if they don't. Women choose to go through agony and face the risk of death on the operating table to have their bodies carved up and sliced apart in order to make their breasts/stomachs/noses slightly more normal and acceptable in society's terms.

What we need to think about is why women make the choices they do and where the pressures that influence them come from. Often they come from deeply ingrained, society-wide beliefs about the value of women and what women need to do to get approval.

cheeset Wed 26-Nov-08 10:31:22

OMG this thread is hystericalgrin

I think I might try this book. I am very open minded and stuck in a rut with DH so why not?

Sign me up, what have I got to lose?

If it goes tits up I can always go back to my old ways of resenting my DH and being glued to the telly every night.

Might get a bit of good sex out of itgrin

Loreleyjynx Wed 26-Nov-08 11:26:59

I'm with Dittany on this one. If you're happy with this Beautiful, then that is your right and your choice.
I just feel that so many women have been forced to be subservient to men and it's been that way because it's always been a man's world. My husband gets really angry if the house isn't tidy enough to his liking. On several occasions, he's lost his temper and really yeled at me for it. As a result, I'm now a nervous wreck and paranoid that he'll find fault when he gets home from work.
I'd give anything not be be a Stepford wife. I hate to think that women are being encouraged to pander to their husband's every whim and be the perfect domestic goddess. I think that most men would like nothing better than to go back to the days when women had no other choice but to scrub and scivvy for them so that they wouldn't have to do any of that boring, soul destroying crap for themselves.

OrmIrian Wed 26-Nov-08 12:00:53

"She says she feels quite sorry for us westerners, who have been taught to be so dissatisfied with our womanhood. Her comment has really stayed with me. "

How kind smile Next time this 'Westerner' feels disatisfied by earning her own money and not being afraid to tell her DH he's an arse when he is being one, and isn't afraid to allow a little grime into my house, I'll think of her sympathy and feel much better. And so will my womanhood.

Fimbo Wed 26-Nov-08 12:05:22

Have only read page 1 of this thread. So apologies if this has already been said.

There was a woman like this on Wifeswap a couple of years ago - she called it being a mindful wife iirc.

Amberc Wed 26-Nov-08 12:06:35

Much as I may not agree with the philosophy behind this 'movement', I don't think anyone should be called a loon/troll or made to feel stupid by having an opinion or daring to post something that does not appeal to the masses. There's an awful lot of MN bullying on here (and other posts) and I'm glad to see the OP has not risen to the bait.

Fimbo Wed 26-Nov-08 12:08:19


Fimbo Wed 26-Nov-08 12:08:58
Joolyjoolyjoo Wed 26-Nov-08 12:25:20

Hmm- agree with SOME of it, but more from a point of view of being considerate to my DH- and expecting him to be considerate to me!!

I hear too many women bitching about their DHs/ DPs all the time, constantly nagging at them- I just don't want to be like that. My mum was forever nagging at my dad and putting him down, and I hated it (although he took it in remarkably good spirit!) Lots of women seem to treat their partners like kids and then moan when they are irresponsible/ immature etc. I understand that when DH comes home at night he has had a long day and a long commute, and probably wants 15 minutes to himself before I foist the kids on him, ranting about what a day from hell I've had....then once he's had his time out, I start with the foisting and the ranting wink.

I never nag- I have a "niggle list" on the wall, which DH works his way through as he sees fit. Ok, I give the odd gentle reminder (for things like seeing to the brakes on the family car!) but most of it can wait until he gets round to it, and surely it's better if he does things because he wants to, than because he's been nagged to? Guilt usually gets him off his butt to help out with the housework.

I am happy for him to have hobbies, and encourage him to go out on his bike/ motorbike- then he can't really say anything when I want to go to my gym classes or out with friends.

I do tend to do most of the "housewifey" stuff around the house- mainly because I chose to stay at home, but I see it as teamwork- he does his bit and I do mine, and we both appreciate each other (well, that's the theory- doesn't always work out that way, of course!!)

I don't see much wrong in trying to please your bloke and make life more pleasant for him if it means he does the same for you. Most of us when we first got together with our partners did exactly that, did we not?

thumbwitch Wed 26-Nov-08 12:28:54

Amberc, i don't think most of us were bullying Beautiful, we just couldn't believe she was being serious! there were some nastier comments but most of them felt fairly good-humoured - and i have been on nasty bullying threads before, verrry different feel to this one.

Beautiful, i apologise for assuming you were trolling - your later post did clarify more. You carry on - if it works for you, that's the important bit.

Colditz Wed 26-Nov-08 12:35:36

I think I'd rather hang myself. I'd certainly rather be single forever.

Gemzooks Wed 26-Nov-08 12:37:44

I think it would be a nice idea (has been done, of course), to have a thread for those trying to be less naggy/nicer to DHs/DPs.

Not about being less assertive or not standing up for yourself, or keeping silent about things that are really wrong, but just taking the active role in being loving and trying to cut down on griping.

My DH is wonderful but family life does wear you down, both of us tend to carp on about the same old things and speak impatiently, worse than one used to with flatmates for example, and you get into all that competitive tiredness thing and who took the bin out. I have noticed that the more I focus on who has done what, the less happy I am. Not to say I should do it all, but I've noticed that if I reach out to him and do something nice he really appreciates it and does something back, same with carping, if I cut down I notice he does too, just human nature.

If I made myself a total doormat, he might not appreciate it, but that's something different. And it's as two equal partners running a tight show, though, and both sharing work, childcare and household tasks. No connotations of Doris Day making the house a real home with her woman's touch.

I also think that a DH who sees you're tired and just voluntarily does some annoying task to take the burden off is so much more romantic than one offering some crappy flowers gesture or something. That's where you see the real man underneath!

SexyDomesticatedDad Wed 26-Nov-08 13:08:56

Intersting thread - I guess not too many comments from men directly on the thread - but quite a few posters would scare off them off.

Gemzooks / JoolyJ - intersting posts - there are others there too. Maybe couples need to look at their relationships more and see what they can do for each other not because they have to but they want to. Seems this topic is 90% full of women saying they want to leave / change their relationships - the OP is doing something about that but in a more extreme way maybe.

Also been trying to do more to help DW and balance work / childcare / hobbies / fixing house up / helping DCs with hobbies & work etc etc and its always has its problems - some nice ideas like the niggle / fix list - maybe that would work and it needs to be both ways. My DW always leaves the dresser draws open in the morning - is it really a big problem - no just close them up.

Some posters here are very adamant women should be financially independant - doesn't have to be - we both work pay into a joint account and don't have a concept of my / your money. Sometimes DW says she pays x for childcare costs but I correct her and say its our joint money (in fact most comes out of my salary anyway for vouchers).

I'm not saying we go back to the 50s or 60s per se but there are examples and behaviours that could be adapted to make a relationship function better. I know we both respond and get on better when we try to get the little jobs done without nagging - and coming up with a few surprises once in a while.

It seems to work quite well for us - have been married for 20 years and were courting for 5 years before that. Have to work at relationship and providing for our family - which is undoubtedly what I'm most proud of having achieved in my life so far.

BEAUTlFUL Wed 26-Nov-08 13:31:12

Thank you! Would you like a back rub?

"Maybe couples need to look at their relationships more and see what they can do for each other" -- THAT's the point. It's NOT mindless drudgery, it's taking on the responsibility of the house & children, and making your DH feel good about himself.

"But he should be doing that for you!" Well, he is, since I've stopped nagging him, started admiring him and cheered the fuck up. How many women on here have achieved anything by nagging their partners? Or at least, have made their partners do anything willingly and happily? Good for you if your partner does them already. Mine didn't.

Lots of MN posters are in lovely relationships. But lots aren't, and this is just a way to see if maybe the standard advice we dole out isn't the best.

dittany Wed 26-Nov-08 13:41:26

You know this idea that the choices are nagging or submission is a red herring. Most people who are disagreeing with you are talking about equal partnerships Beautiful that both partners work at rather than mindlessly reverting to sex stereotyped roles.

Loreleyjynx, I'm really sorry that your partner is treating you like that. Beatiful, unfortunately your Fascinating Womanhood supports Loreleyjynx's husband in his views - for every one woman happy in Stepford there are probably a hundred across the world, being forced into this role becuase of morons like the woman who wrote this book who claim that this is the natural order of things.

georgimama Wed 26-Nov-08 13:48:21

OK, just looked at the Fascinating Woman website. There's a problem page:

"Dear Mrs. Andelin:

Many of your success stories are about women who were about to get a divorce, or even already divorced. In these stories it seems that if anyone just tiries hard enough any marriage can become better. But what about the possibility that one chose the wrong man in the first place? I am afraid that I was rather stupid and a bit desperate choosing my husband and now things are terrible. Before marrriage he was nice to me but now he tells me all the things he finds wrong with me. Any tiny mistake I make he notices, like he wants to turn me into something I am not. For a long time I have been blaming myself, telling myself that if I just became a better person, if I tried harder to become perfect, things would improve. But no matter how much I read your book or how hard I try, nothing changes. Can it be that I made an unwise decision in the first place, and now perhaps have spoiled both of our lives?

Dear friend,

If you feel you have choosen the wrong man to marry, there is nothing wrong with your getting a divorce, and the sooner the better, especially if you have no children. Divorce is an act of mercy, especially when there appears no other way. Moses allowed divorce for this reason. I am wondering if your husband also feels he has made a mistake in marriage and is treating you this way to provoke you to divorce him.

Before taking this step, however, take an honest look at your situation. It seems to me that you have been more concerned about your unhappiness in marriage than in doing the things that would make him happy. Do you let him know that you accept him, appreciate him, admire him and make him number one? Is your household clean and organized? Are you feminine in the way you dress and act? Are you a kind, generous and patient person?"

So your husband is treating you like shit and you are thinking about divorcing him, but first, why not have a little dust round the skirting boards and clear out the tinned food cupboard - that's the answer to your problems.

dittany Wed 26-Nov-08 13:53:48

"make him number one"

FFS. angry

This woman obviously never read Abigail Adams' letter to John Adams where she said "All men would be tyrants if they could". Fascinating Womanhood seems to be calling for the set up of benevolent (if you're lucky) dictatorships.

thumbwitch Wed 26-Nov-08 14:01:03

ooh, oh, please go and read this artcle on Snopes about that 1955 "how to be a Good Wife guide" - although it in itself seems to be a mock-up, the accompanying text has a list of the prevailing attitudes in the 1950s, which pretty much reflects what the article says.

georgimama Wed 26-Nov-08 14:11:41

"Some posters here are very adamant women should be financially independant - doesn't have to be - we both work pay into a joint account and don't have a concept of my / your money"

Well your wife is financially independent then, or at least your financial equal. Beautiful seems to think her husband should have control of all the money. Does that sound like a good idea? No, thought not.

Ok, I've now read an excerpt from this book and WTF?

See here.

stepfordwife Wed 26-Nov-08 14:32:51

...wish people would stop taking my name in vain..
how very dare they?

RubyrubyrubyRobinRedbreast Wed 26-Nov-08 14:35:28

BEAUTIFUL - I think you are right smile

Gemzooks Wed 26-Nov-08 14:36:08

I love this excerpt from the book:

'I am not implying that there are not certain circumstances and emergencies when the wife should work, but the responsibility is the man's as we will learn in a later chapter.'

Fo what it's worth I do believe that BEAUTIFUL is not a troll and has read this book (or some of it) and is inspired (rightly or wrongly) and wants to talk about it. Just as you would be when you had read a a good book. I believe it's the subject matter that a lot of people are objecting to. What i don't undfderstand and is why some of the other posters are being really nasty to BEAUTIFUL. Just because you don't agree with it? Your world is not THE world!
What is with the swearing?!
I can understand what BEAUTIFUL is getting at and has picked the wrong place (obviously) to try and get 'recruits' so to speak.

I'm not totally opposed to some of the ideas (some are barmy!) but it's the lack of tolerance for those with different ideas and values and the way in which other posters have just shot down the original poster. It's just plain rude. Imagine for one second, outide your realm of experience, that there are others, and let them be!

Going now.....
(this is why I mostly lurk... sad)

OrmIrian Wed 26-Nov-08 15:15:04

"the responsibility is the man's as we will learn in a later chapter.'"

Well that's a get out clause for me then. DH don't earn enough to 'keep' me and the DC. Does that make him an unfascinating husband? I said earlier that I'd be prepared to prostitute myself be nice to a suitably wealthy man. Just didn't find one wink.

OP you and your crazy book are scaring me.

Rhubarb's fragrant farting pants are about the sanest idea on this thread.

Tanee58 Wed 26-Nov-08 16:20:19

Beautiful, if this is working for you, I am happy for you - and I hope it continues to work smile. I myself am trying out a strategy on my DP after recent problems - nothing like this, but a strategy nonetheless which involves not rising to any of his negative comments or behaviour. Have to admit it IS working, BUT the good thing is he is also doing things for me, like doing some cooking, fixing ME a drink when I come home later than him from a hard day in the office, etc.

The point I am trying to make is, thinking of what will please our men is fine, as long as it results in them reciprocating. If it's all one way, you will, eventually, resent it like hell and feel you are a lesser person. That's what led to Women's Lib in the first place. In the 1930s there was an 'illness' called 'Housewife's Syndrome', basically depression and nervous exhaustion, due to intelligent women forcing themselves to be the Angel in the House.

My ex MIL advised both me and my exH to 'give a lot and take a little'. If you BOTH do that, it can work. If you are giving and he is taking, it won't.

And I am now off to get my lobotomy op.... grin

BEAUTIFUL, I do think that you obviously are trying hard to make your family a happy, close one, and if this is owrking ofr you thats great.

However all the liks and quotes I've seen so far on this thread scare me! So bascially, a man can't help the way he is, shouldn't try to change it, because when it comes down to it, it's all a womans fault anyway.

So when he lies, cheats, treats you badly and just generally acts like an arse, it's his wifes fault and she has bsically made him behave like this?????

My dh isn't perfect. He drives me mad sometimes. But then I'm not perfect either, and I know for a fact I drive him absolutley nuts at times. BUT we love each other for who we are. I do not need to become the perfect housewife for him to respect me. Our house does not need to be perfect and well organised for us to be happy.

I also think an important part of bringing up my sons involves me teaching them how to take care of themselves, and that they are responsible for their own actions. I'd be concerned that by having a 'stepford' mother they would be getting the wrong impression of how all realtionships are, and grow up to have quite a chauvinistic attitude towards woman.

God, I need to check my typing before posting!!! working for, links, basically.

See, that's how much this book has scared me!! I can't even type properly!!!grin

Tanee58 Wed 26-Nov-08 16:32:04

Why are we still on this thread when we should be in our high heels and pinny, preparing a delicious meal and cocktails for our lords and masters? hmm

Gemzooks Wed 26-Nov-08 16:34:02

wonder what gay women do who want to follow this philosophy. One could be the husband one week and one the next. now there's an idea!

dittany Wed 26-Nov-08 16:41:49

"it's the lack of tolerance for those with different ideas and values"

I must have missed the memo where we were supposed to tolerate women being pushed into second place to men. There's no need to tolerate sexism, it doesn't make someone a better person for doing so.

snowleopard Wed 26-Nov-08 17:02:07

I agree with InvisiblsMan, what's so wrong about this is the underlying blame factor.

If a woman is a nagging harridan, not subservient enough, not nice enough to her man etc etc - that's her fault.

OTOH if her man is lazy, uncaring, rude, disrespectful, not nice to her in whatever way, that's .... oh yes, HER fault, because she's responsible for behaving in a certain way in order to earn his respect, affection and decent behaviour.


Or make that