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Lighter Later campaign to shift the clocks forwards giving us an extra hour of daylight in the evenings - What do you think?

(286 Posts)
JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 29-Mar-10 14:46:04

What do we think of this campaign to move the clocks forward by an hour all year round?

10:10 LAUNCHES "LIGHTER LATER" CAMPAIGN

On the day of the spring clock change 10:10 is launching the Lighter Later campaign to brighten the nation's days, simply by changing the clocks so we are awake when the sun is out.

10:10 is proposing we shift our clocks to give us one extra hour of daylight in the evenings, all year round. In other words, the UK would shift to GMT+1 in the winter and GMT+2 in spring/summer.

If this was implemented the entire country would, overnight, be one step closer to a 10% reduction in its carbon emissions, as well as happier, healthier and better off. This is a great example of how action on climate change need not be negative, long-term or overly complicated, but rather simple, common-sensical and with multiple benefits.

Franny Armstrong, 10:10 founder and director of the climate change blockbuster The Age Of Stupid said

"Hands up who doesn't want our country to be safer, lighter, more prosperous and with less pollution? And who doesn't want to save money on their electricity bills without lifting a finger?"

This simple change would save almost half-a-million tonnes of CO2 each year1. That's equivalent to taking 185,000 cars off the road permanently.

But, as with so many of the simple behavioural changes 10:10 is recommending to people and organisations, this policy initiative has many benefits beyond the environment.

- Road Safety This policy could save over 100 fatalities on the nation's roads each year.

- Energy bills Consumers and businesses would use less energy thus saving money!

- Tourism & jobs It is estimated that, as a result of the measures proposed by the Lighter Later campaign, 60,000-80,000 jobs will be created through increased leisure & tourism, bringing an extra £2.5-3.5 billion into the economy each year.

- Prevent accidents. More daylight could prevent an estimated 1,000 serious injuries every year.

- Crime Lighter evening would reduce crime and fear of crime.

- Health. More daylight means more time for sports and outdoor activities.

These knock-on benefits mean that lighter evenings are now a more attractive prospect than ever. And people have finally started to take notice. From tourism trade bodies to road safety campaigners, and from sporting organisations to serving Government ministers, a new movement for lighter evenings is growing day by day.

10:10 is calling on individuals, businesses and organisations alike to add their voices to the call for lighter evenings all year round by visiting www.lighterlater.org

Article about it here.

AntoinetteOuradi Mon 29-Mar-10 14:48:31

I love it. Don't usually like MN campaigns as they are scarily politically correct, but I love this one.

I thought the reason why the daylight hours are as they are now so that its daylight earlier in the mornings to make it safer for kids to go to school.

If you gain an hour of daylight in the evening you're going to lose it in the morning and if that means walking to school in the dark I'm not sure its a good idea.

No thanks. My understanding is that when they tried it before, it increased the number of RTAs etc up here in Scotland because of the darker mornings. I'd sooner have at least some light in the mornings, rather than a bit extra in the evenings.

AntoinetteOuradi Mon 29-Mar-10 14:54:28

What about coming home from school? My DCs walk to school and back. In winter, it's pitch black when they come out at 4.15, never mind by the time they have walked home. I'd personally prefer it to be lighter in the evenings.

AntoinetteOuradi Mon 29-Mar-10 14:55:22

Why this myth about RTAs only happening on dark mornings?

GooseyLoosey Mon 29-Mar-10 14:55:57

I would prefer it lighter. Why bother changing times at all, why not stay on BST all year long?

skidoodly Mon 29-Mar-10 14:56:31

Unless you are planning to move the position of britain on the globe or have the earth spin more slowly you are not going to create more daylight hours.

This daft proposal will mean that in winter it will be dark until most people are in work. No thanks.

I guess I hadn't really thought about schoold finishing at 4:15. Here even the secondary schools finish at 3:00pm so still daylight even in winter.

geekgirl Mon 29-Mar-10 14:57:25

I would welcome this so much. Living in a rural area, there is literally nothing to do here after school in late autumn/winter. It gets too dark to go outside almost as soon as we've walked back from school, the local swimming pools aren't open for general swimming in the afternoons and there is just nothing to do but hang around indoors. Drives me mad. I'd much rather have light in the afternoon than in the morning - it would improve the children's health and quality of life.

Indith Mon 29-Mar-10 15:02:09

I would like to see how all the savings have been calculated. I'm not sure I agree.

In the winter when it is dark as you go to work/school and dark when you get home it isn't going to change much, you will just need the lights on until later in the morning be it in school/work or at home. Similarly most people will still be travelling in the darl or dusk and morning commutes will still be dark or darker than before.

Will it really promote tourism and outdoor sports? I don't think an hour really makes for much change and in the depths of winter it would just mean getting dark at 5 instead of 4 so still dark after work for most people. As for tourists, well I don't really think tourists who come in winter retire to their hotel rooms at 4pm anyway. Again, it is only an hour which really isn't much, it isn't going to make attractions open later really is it since they are generally open til 5 or later anyway.

Aside from all of that, I can cope with it getting light at 9 and dark at 4 but the thought of getting up at 5 or 6am with children then having to wait until 10 for it to be properly light just makes me want to curl up in a ball and cry.

skidoodly Mon 29-Mar-10 15:02:42

The lives of a few Scottish school children are a fair price to pay so that children in rural England aren't stuck in the house after school.

AntoinetteOuradi Mon 29-Mar-10 15:03:27

Ditto, Geekgirl. 'Tis not right for small children to be stuck indoors in the dark after school every day for months on end.

AntoinetteOuradi Mon 29-Mar-10 15:05:16

No, skidoodly, the lives of a few late-finishing primary children in England (like, f'rinstance, mine) are a fair price to pay for the Scots to have more light in the morning.

geekgirl Mon 29-Mar-10 15:08:28

hmm @skidoodly. My children also finish school late. One of mine has a music lesson in the village just after school and needs to take a torch in winter to get home. I don't see how you can claim that dark mornings are more dangerous than dark afternoons.

skidoodly Mon 29-Mar-10 15:19:37

Well if primary school children finish so late presumably they also start late. So they can go out playing before school.

Tee2072 Mon 29-Mar-10 15:24:40

What on earth is RTA?

Anyway, I think its a horrid outdated idea that we change the clocks at all. We have a thing called electricity now. We should use it.

Oh but gasp that isn't very green of me, is it? Too bad.

JodieO Mon 29-Mar-10 15:27:05

Personally I prefer the way it is. I would hate to have darker mornings. It's supposed to be light in the mornings to wake your body up naturally, so surely more dark mornings would increase the rate of SAD sufferers and also depression? It is linked to sunlight. The body's natural sleep wake cycle would mess up a lot imo and have more long reaching effects than "climate change".

JodieO Mon 29-Mar-10 15:27:27

RTA = road traffic accidents.

Tee2072 Mon 29-Mar-10 15:29:45

Thank you Jodie!

GrimmaTheNome Mon 29-Mar-10 15:39:58

I think we should semi-hibernate in winter.

There was a piece in the sat or sun times suggestion that the setting of timezone should be devolved so that Scotland could deal with its few daylight hours in the way that best suited the Scots, and leave the rest of the UK to decide what was best for them.

skidoodly Mon 29-Mar-10 15:51:25

So will people in the north of England be able to choose to be in a different timezone to little boys who have to go to music lessons in the dark?

Bramshott Mon 29-Mar-10 15:54:05

I think it's fine. I hate dark mornings - so hard to wake up.

booboobeedoo Mon 29-Mar-10 16:00:52

I was thinking about this today. I agree with a campaign for lighter evenings. Can I ask a silly question - why can't we just be on summer time (GMT+1) all the year round? Would this help?

Snorbs Mon 29-Mar-10 16:02:54

I'd like to see some justification for the figures given for supposed benefits. Deaths in traffic accidents reduced by 100pa? So commuting on cold, wet, possibly icy roads on a winter's morning will be safer if you do it in the dark rather than with at least a bit of daylight? hmm

AndiMac Mon 29-Mar-10 16:02:55

It's a great idea. Who the heck needs it to be light at 4:30am in the summer? I'd rather be outside enjoying a late barbecue in the evenings without it getting dark before I've even turned off the grill.

In winter, kids would go to school in the dark possibly for a few weeks. The trade off, being able to play outside during daylight hours after school. People are more alert driving in the morning after a night's rest than they are driving in the evening, worn out from work and therefore there would be fewer accidents in the evening.

Scotland could have its own time zone. It's hardly revolutionary for a country to have more than one time zone.

AndiMac Mon 29-Mar-10 16:04:16

Grr, can't see an edit button. Rewording it - "there would be few accidents in the evening if there was more light".

TheCrackFox Mon 29-Mar-10 16:10:26

They tried it before and it didn't work. Can't see it working this time either.

krugerparkrules Mon 29-Mar-10 16:13:12

I support it ......

Pofacedagain Mon 29-Mar-10 16:13:16

I agree with it entirely.

AndiMac Mon 29-Mar-10 16:16:10

When did they try it before? Why didn't it work?

Snorbs, here's the report: http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/closed/roadsafetyconsultation/ Page 106 and 107 of the PDF discuss it.

abride Mon 29-Mar-10 16:21:21

I am all in favour of keeping the clocks an hour forward (worked in WW2) but I'd like to see evidence of the 60,000-80,000 new jobs this would result in.

sarah293 Mon 29-Mar-10 16:25:54

I hate the shifting as it buggers up sleep for weeks. Just leave it in one place. Farmers can get up when its ;light, not go by clocks.

MamaMtundu Mon 29-Mar-10 16:34:07

YES, YES, YES! It would be so much better. GMT+2 for summer months and GMT+1 for rest of year is what they are proposing isn't it?

abouteve Mon 29-Mar-10 16:54:04

I can remember as a schoolkid in the 60's having to wear reflective sashes to go to school in the mornings as we didn't put the clocks back one year, lighter after school, but very miserable walking to school in the dark.

midnightexpress Mon 29-Mar-10 16:57:00

'More daylight' - that is obviously bollocks. There isn't 'more daylight' at all, there's exactly the same amount.

And if it gets dark at 5 instead of 4, most people aren't out of work until after that anyway, so it'll still be dark on their way home. I'm sure the crims would be able to adjust their crime clocks accordingly too.

You lot down south, why don't you just start school earlier if it's so traumatic coming home in the dark, you lazy gits? Up here we have to go to school and come home in the dark.

I think it's a totally stupid idea! Just leave the clocks totally alone, please! One hour change is bad enough twice a year - imagine 2 hours in one go! Crazy!

There are enough children out there who find changes of routine hard to cope with, especially special needs children. I have an aunt who's son is SN, and the time change twice a year was not easy over the years. It required lots of planning/organising on her part, with 5-10 min changes with the alarm clock in the weeks/days before, just to keep from throwing him totally off!

Honestly can't see any reason why we need this silly change. Just ignore the clocks and go by the light available.

I agree with it. Why would it not be possible for Scotland to have a different time zone? ie. the one we're on now since they are so much further north and therefore have much less daylight. They have their own parliment so should be allowed to decide their own time zone.

legallyblond Mon 29-Mar-10 17:00:23

No no no no....! This would be terrible. I come from a farming family and this would be completely impossible. Farmers need to be up and about doing jobs (that absolutely need light) at 4/5am. Farming would not be possible if this change went ahead! Nooo!

Rockbird Mon 29-Mar-10 17:03:14

Just leave the bloody thing alone! The number of daylight hours will be exactly the same no matter what end of the day they're at. Be thankful you're not a bit higher up the globe where there is 24 hour darkness at times. then you'd have something to complain about. FGS it's such a non issue but they keep banging on about it like they are suddenly going to find a wonderful new way of re-jigging the daylight around. AARRGGHH!!!

<this topic gets on my tits >

Tee2072 Mon 29-Mar-10 17:04:05

Why Scotland can't be its own timezone...

Look at a map. With timezones.

You will note that timezones are arranged north south. You will also note that Scotland is directly north of England.

Therefore, it cannot be in a separate timezone from England.

It could, however, elect to or not to change its clocks. That's what parts of the US, such as the state of Arizona, do.

But timezones are not arbitrary.

GrimmaTheNome Mon 29-Mar-10 17:05:06

Farmers already work a different day to everyone else, so why does a nominal timezone matter to them anyway?

Put it another way - we've got x number of daylight hours and x numbers of school hours. What is the best (or least worst) overlap in winter and in summer?

Tee2072 Mon 29-Mar-10 17:05:22

I did forget to note that there are a few exceptions with small island chains that are brought into a non-linear timezone. But Scotland is hardly that.

skidoodly Mon 29-Mar-10 17:06:25

Does the same go for Wales and NI?

potentially 4 different "time zones" in a small country like the UK?

yes, all the expense and inconvenience would definitely be worth it so people can barbecue while it's bright.

GrimmaTheNome Mon 29-Mar-10 17:07:38

The optimal timzone depends on latitude and longitude. If you're at a high latitude with short days in winter, there may be benefit in having those hours asymmetrically around noon with more light in the afternoon, because modern living has gravitated to being awake longer after noon than in the morning.

skidoodly Mon 29-Mar-10 17:08:48

school isn't the only thing that matters in this

When they tried this last time in the late 70s (I think) there were more fatalities on the road, especially pedestrians being killed. So thats why it went back to how it is now.

So dark mornings must be more dangerous than dark evenings. hmm

Fair point, Scotland having it's own time zone not the best idea!

TigerFeet Mon 29-Mar-10 17:13:02

wouldn't it be easier for schools etc to adjust their opening times according to the season?

they could open later when it's dark in the morning

farmers could adjust their working hours according to when its light (the ones dh works with do this anyway)

those of us for whom it doesn't matter just stay as we are all year round?

no pissing about with changing the clocks for anyone (that hour has really buggered me up this year for some reason)

and it doesn't matter if it's dark in scotland and light in england at any particu;lar time - they would have different working/school hours to work round it

Finona Mon 29-Mar-10 17:14:11

Go for it Mumsnet - if this were to be implemented then it will bring independence for Scotland all the closer, as yet again the rules are set to benefit the South of England.

MrsTicklemouseWantsBunnyEars Mon 29-Mar-10 17:15:25

rachelinscotland as i understand it wouldnt be a two hour change in one go just that next time the clocks go back they would stay the same instead and then go forward 1 hour the next spring then back 1 hour in the autumn etc

legallyblond of course Farming would continue, jobs would get done when its light irrelevant of the time, they are talking about changing the time not the number of actual daylight hours, that of course would be impossible

I think it a great idea

geekgirl Mon 29-Mar-10 17:15:47

I would love school to start earlier. And just to point out re. dark mornings - in many parts of the world children go to school much earlier than in the UK - Finnish schools start at 8 or earlier, so do German ones. Children travel to school in the dark as a matter of course there - I grew up in northern Germany and left home at 7am to cycle to school - often in the dark. It was perfectly normal and not a matter of life and death hmm.

I like long summer evenings.
Mornings should be banned anyway (imho)

skidoodly Mon 29-Mar-10 17:19:57

"I grew up in northern Germany and left home at 7am to cycle to school - often in the dark. It was perfectly normal and not a matter of life and death"

so why should the whole country change its ways so your ds doesn't have to come home from music lessons in the dark, if it's so unimportant?

boodleboot Mon 29-Mar-10 17:23:19

fantastic....i'm in....

AndiMac Mon 29-Mar-10 17:23:20

How would it be easier for schools to adjust their hours? Then parents have to adjust their schedules to drop off the kids while their work doesn't move. If everyone changes, then everyone stays on the same schedule.

As for it taking "weeks" to adjust to a measly one hour change, that's not accurate for most people. In general, it takes one day per hour of change to adjust. Therefore, it only takes a day. Special needs people excepted perhaps, but a 2 hour change, as a one off, would take all of 2 days to "recover" from.

skidoodly Mon 29-Mar-10 17:23:24

Why don't we change to GMT+7 in winter? Then children in rural England could play outdoors for hours in the winter

Then we could try GMT+12 in summer, for people who like their barbecue all nighters in daylight.

I think that the day should start at about 10 in the morning. School starts at 8.15 here in Italy. It's sadistic.

SuSylvester Mon 29-Mar-10 17:27:13

FARMERS HAVE LIGHTS

SuSylvester Mon 29-Mar-10 17:27:34

aND WHO GIEV A FFUCK ABOTU teh scottish tbh

ChippyMinton Mon 29-Mar-10 17:28:10

Leave it as it is.

littledawley Mon 29-Mar-10 17:38:10

I know it's stupid but the thought of standing in Greenwich but never being at GMT bothers me grin

Hassled Mon 29-Mar-10 17:38:40

Top idea - we should go for it. The crofters will cope - they seem a hardy lot.

Actually I'm basing that solely on Groundskeeper Willie - they might be a bunch of wusses for all I know.

fluffles Mon 29-Mar-10 17:39:37

totally 100% disagree - it is an entirely south centric policy.

in Scotland we'd have darkness until mid-morning through winter and then have the sun out till nearly midnight in june!!!

not only would it be harder for everyone to get up in the mornings it would be impossible to get children to sleep at night, AND prove disasterous for anybody who works outdoors (farming, road repairs, construction) as they'd have to start work later and then work on into the evenings ruining family life.

Tortington Mon 29-Mar-10 17:41:10

i like it.

i like it muchly.

You can tell them that i have given them my approval and they can now go ahead

fluffles Mon 29-Mar-10 17:46:12

as for the argument that tourist attractions can stay open later - well, woopee do! great, more people get to miss their family meal and children's bedtimes in order to work longer hours. Great. hmm

yama Mon 29-Mar-10 17:53:04

I'm against this proposed campaign.

Dark mornings are much worse than dark evenings imo and ime.

AndiMac Mon 29-Mar-10 18:02:10

"not only would it be harder for everyone to get up in the mornings it would be impossible to get children to sleep at night"

I can say the same about getting up in the morning at 4:30 when the sun rises. Blackout curtains.

BelleDameSansMerci Mon 29-Mar-10 18:12:00

No thanks - let's leave it as it is please. There are enough people with SAD issues as it is and I can't see that an extra hour of darkness in the morning would help much.

JackRabbitBauer Mon 29-Mar-10 18:12:50

It's a ridiculous idea.
Accidents are more liekly in the dark, whether it is morning or evening is irrelevant, the streets need to be lit better/reflective clothing more prevelant.

But what is really confusing me is the claim that we will save electricity. How? There will still be the EXACT SAME AMOUNT of sunlight. if it is in the morning or the evening people will still put their lights on when it is dark.
very weird.

JackRabbitBauer Mon 29-Mar-10 18:15:53

Hahahahaha

That article header
'despite traditional opposition from Scotland'

Yeah, those bloody Scots, just opposing it to be awkward and traditional.
Sorry, but that's so funny. Teeny mention of the RTA's in scotland after the last change at the end leaves you with the impression that it's the scots want us all to live in the dark, ooh, you northern swines...

SpeccieSeccie Mon 29-Mar-10 18:16:26

YES PLEASE! This is a brilliant campaign idea. Positive, cheap and green. And sooo much better for those of us who dread the early dark evenings.

AndiMac Mon 29-Mar-10 18:19:43

We will save electricity because there are fewer people awake in the mornings when it's dark as compared to awake in the evenings when it's dark. Hence fewer lights going on. And the research suggests that switching to this scheme will actually reduce SAD. Here is a direct link to the benefits: http://www.lighterlater.org/benefits.html

AndiMac Mon 29-Mar-10 18:22:15

www.lighterlater.org/benefits.html
I really cannot get the hang of posting here without an edit feature.

JackRabbitBauer Mon 29-Mar-10 18:23:18

That is just domestic though, don't streetlights and industry use the most electricity? And they will still be using the same (for streetlights) and almost the same (businesses that are open early morning and late evening will have lights on anyway.

It's a big gimmick for the 2012 olympics really, isn't it?

Farmers will lose out, but no-one gives a fuck about them anymore do theyhmm

FromGirders Mon 29-Mar-10 18:27:06

Another vote against.
I can cope much better with the early evenings than dark mornings - it wouldn't be light here until nearly ten in the winter. Grim.
Having said that, if Scotland can have a different use of BST and GMT then all the Southerners may do precisely as they wish with my blessing. And if it speeds up Scottish Independence, so much the better.

Rockbird Mon 29-Mar-10 18:27:51

They won't do it. They waffle on about this every March, then they forget about it.

SuSylvester Mon 29-Mar-10 18:29:34

Groundskeeper Willie

rofl

abride Mon 29-Mar-10 18:45:00

The sooner they turn the bloody streetlights off after about midnight the better.

Pumphreydidit Mon 29-Mar-10 18:58:22

By all means do it in England but not for Scotland.

Contrary to some racist posters, some of us do give a fuck.

bibbitybobbityhat Mon 29-Mar-10 19:14:17

This debate is had every year. I remember watching a long feature about it on Nationwide in something like 1974.

bibbitybobbityhat Mon 29-Mar-10 19:15:48

Am quite surprised at how few people are aware that time zones go vertically on the globe, tbh.

gothicmama Mon 29-Mar-10 19:27:30

think it is a good idea - altho do think it will probablelead to Scotland being in a diff time zone on balance the benefits to England out weigh the negatives - I am not sure how it would work having two time zones

AntoinetteOuradi Mon 29-Mar-10 19:27:54

Skidoodly, my DS starts at 8.00 and finishes at 4.10. That is not because he goes to before-school care or anything: it's because that's when Registration is. He finishes at 4.10 because that's when the bell goes for the end of the day. He is seven, lest you suppose he's a strapping teenager!

skidoodly Mon 29-Mar-10 19:40:56

That is a crazy long day for a 7 year old. My school day was shorter in secondary school. He's doing a full working week. That's so wrong.

Primary school finished at half two when I went. Started at 9. What is the point of such a long day?

differentID Mon 29-Mar-10 19:46:56

I am against it. I believe it to be poorly thought out and gimmicky.

Whichever idiot said that it would reduce crime, is a numpty, a complete and total numpty. Because certainly in this town the problematic element are more frequently seen in the lighter evenings.

Dark and cold= safer streets as the rougher element also like their comfort and will be in their houses!!!!
Lighter evenings= larger number of rowdier and rougher people drinking alcohol and it feels very threatening having to walk past large groups of volatile drunks who are only drinking because it's light enough to be out.

So sorry, my support for this illogical and ill thought out piece of "green" bullshit(imho) will not be forthcoming.

Oh and before you all tell me to take another route- the only 2 ways to my home are past these groups of people.

I'm against it.

I am in central Scotland (no crofters round here) and some mornings in winter it's not light until 9.30 or so

Such a depressing thought

I don't understand how this would save energy - can someone explain that?

totally agree re crime differentID - it's the same where we are.

Much more antisocial behaviour in general, in the summer they would be out making noise until 11.30pm because it would still be light

AndiMac Mon 29-Mar-10 19:52:40

Please look at the link I provided, it explains it there. With pictures and everything.

differentID Mon 29-Mar-10 19:59:47

I also read in the article linked in the OP

why can't Scotland simply change the opening times of it's schools?

For the very simple fact that business won't change their hours of work and so many staff will be out of pocket the economy will grind to a slowdown because fewer reliable people can afford to work.Because of childcare issues. It's hard enough finding childcare that is affordable now for anyone, what would it be like for the working poor families? Who would either have less time spent together because one parent has to go in later to work and as such work later in the evening, or, if their employer won't budge,(and many businesses cannot afford to be fully flexible)lose employment thus meaning poverty for more people.

Oh I see - nice graphs.

Well looking at that I get that it would make sense in terms of electricity saving for the southern half of the UK where obv the majority of the population lives

Just feel it would be miserable for us

Pumphreydidit Mon 29-Mar-10 20:07:11

It would completely scupper life in Shetland and Orkney - still part of the UK, same longitude, but never gets dark in summer or much light in winter.
How would it work there?

abbierhodes Mon 29-Mar-10 20:09:54

It is the first school day of BST, it is still light and my kids are still awake. They need 12 hours sleep to function and have to be up at 7. And you want to make this worse?

So at some times of year we'll put them to bed in the light, so they can't sleep, and wake them up in the dark, when they want to sleep? Messing their body clocks up completely, just so we won't have to switch so many lights on?

Is mumsnet starting to believe its own hype? Just seeing what nonsense they can convince people of next? What a load of shite.

No time or inclination to read the article - need to go and drink alcopops - but can't believe the suggestion that Scottish schools should just change their opening hours - to what exactly?

differentID you are right again.

I don't see how it could possibly work having Scotland and rest of UK on different time systems either.

JackRabbitBauer Mon 29-Mar-10 20:11:24

Andimac, ooh, pretty pictures.
They are a little patronising, I can envision how it woud affect the lighting etc, ( and I can cope without charts covered in shiny images and iconshmm) Any evidence that isn't from a commisioned report or a shiny graph for idiots?
But it really doesn't make enough of a positive difference to outweigh all the cons

( I wasn't being racist BTW, I was being sarcastic <<worried>>)

Yes abb I have just had nightmare time getting dc to sleep too - hence alcopops

Jack, I think that poster was referring to Susylvester further down thread who said nobody gives a fuck about the scots

and I don't think Su was actually expressing her own opinion IYSWIM

Pennies Mon 29-Mar-10 20:15:47

this old chestnut gets rolled out each time the clocks change.

its no biggie. leave well alone.

DuelingFanjo Mon 29-Mar-10 20:17:45

no thanks

JackRabbitBauer Mon 29-Mar-10 20:19:04

thansk doggie <<relaxes, takes anti PMT medicine>>

Pumphreydidit Mon 29-Mar-10 20:25:51

It is ok Jack. Your sarcasm is far more elegant than su's. wink

As an old fart, I can remember the last time they did this, sometime in the 60's. Coming from Scotland, it's not just that it was dark on the way in to school, it stayed dark until about 10 in the morning. It was crap, sitting there whilst outside was like night.

AndiMac Mon 29-Mar-10 20:32:18

JackRabbitBauer, I've provided two links. The simple one to the LighterLater campaign website which explains the benefits. I also provided a link to a 120 page report from the Department of Transport which talks about the possible benefits and reduction in traffic accident fatalities if Double Summer Time (as they call it) was put into place. Do you consider them to biased?

I could waste my time providing more links for people to proclaim idiotic, but I think I'll save my energy.

evilgiraffe Mon 29-Mar-10 20:33:47

Bollocks to it. It will make sod all difference to the amount of daylight we have, as it will not in any way affect the position of Britain on the Earth. Therefore there is not much point in doing it, and hilarious to claim that there will be "more daylight" at any point. If people struggle so much (which I don't for a moment believe they do), then they can move to a more southerly country and their problems will be solved.

As littledawley says, the thought of standing in Greenwich but never being at GMT bothers me too! I don't see the problem in being at GMT all the time - why have we got BST at all in the first place? Dammit, we have the centre of time in our country, we should use it!

JackRabbitBauer Mon 29-Mar-10 20:34:35

I'll come back and look at them tomorrow when my sarcasm might have worn off and you won't feel hounded for trying to convince us this is a genius idea when its not

seimum Mon 29-Mar-10 20:35:41

Going home from work in hte dark is miserable, but getting to work and it still being dark is even worse.

WE are in southern England. My husband rides a m/bike to work. He can do most of his journey there in daylight, and in winter it is always dark onthe way home.

Keeping BST in winter means he will always be going both there & back in the dark. How is this safer?

Same applies to rest of family. DD2 currently walks to & form school in light, with the change woudl have to walk to school in the dark - so worse for her as well.

DS would change from dark afternoon to dark morning - so no benefit.

I also agree with previous post that Greenwich ought to have GMT for at least part of the year!

JackRabbitBauer Mon 29-Mar-10 20:41:45

Although... <<can't let it lie>>I find it veyr hard to pay attention to any claims about reducing RTA's or improving safety that don't involve the pedestrians or the cars.

It is conjecture, and you can't bugger up half the country (when it has been shown previously that this does cause RTA's, and it has not been proven in the reverse for the south) and screw over all the farmers for something where you have no physical evidence. IMO.

So I am still a no.

AndiMac Mon 29-Mar-10 20:44:08

I'm not feeling hounded, I'm feeling slightly frustrated that several people here seem to have said no to the idea simply because they don't like change. I grew up at a fairly northern latitude in Canada so I know all about dark mornings and nights. However, the time zone is better balanced there than here in the UK and therefore I can see how beneficial this scheme could be.

abride Mon 29-Mar-10 20:45:45

I still want clarification about the jobs. I can't see that claim backed up anywhere else. 80,000 new jobs is a lot. One of the leaflets claims that hours of work 'equivalent' to 80,000 fulltime jobs would be created, but that's a bit different: it means that people already in tourism and leisure could work longer hours in winter, no? Forgive me if that's a wrong interpretation.

I'm saying this as one who'd support a change: I hate it when the clocks go back.

AntoinetteOuradi Mon 29-Mar-10 20:46:38

Yep, it's long, Skidoodly. He also walks four miles there and back, so I am doubly mean.

However, he does get 23 weeks of school holiday per year to compensate (we've already done a week of the Easter break), which makes DD's 20 weeks look very piddly...

Pumphreydidit Mon 29-Mar-10 20:48:14

If the farmers get screwed up then there will be no meat for the late evening barbecue so waste of time.

Is this another ploy under the guise of 'global warming' to get us to use less electricity whilst hundreds of acres of windfarms are built, subsidised by already heavily penalised electricity customers and which will benefit the wealthy landowner?

hocuspontas Mon 29-Mar-10 20:52:10

No. A thousand times no.

And I agree about the Greenwich thing.

LorraineSattell Mon 29-Mar-10 20:53:52

Finona Mon 29-Mar-10 17:14:11
Go for it Mumsnet - if this were to be implemented then it will bring independence for Scotland all the closer, as yet again the rules are set to benefit the South of England.

lolol so true. we can barbeque until about three am in high summer, if only those pesky midges wouldn't eat us alive.

i'm shocked at mnhq not considering the scots at all with this daft campaign.

AndiMac Mon 29-Mar-10 20:59:28

I am amused at all your arguments response to my light-hearted comment about BBQs. Hardly the main reason I'm for the change, but hey, it's a good reason too. grin

frasersmummy Mon 29-Mar-10 21:06:52

If England with it and Scotland didnt would confusion not reign in the borders.

I know people who work in Scotland but live in England..can you imagine crossing living and working in different "time zones" leave work at 5.30 travel 30 mins and arrive home 8pm

In the mornings leave at 10.30am travel 30 mins and arrive at 8am

I would have to say if mn backs this campaign they will alienate a lot of scottish mummies

Ripeberry Mon 29-Mar-10 21:13:00

Some people actually like the dark evenings in Autumn. Lighter mornings are what we need not lighter evenings.
When its cold you want to snuggle up in the warm wether its light or dark outside.

MangoTango Mon 29-Mar-10 21:19:14

I think we should have BST all year round. No need for the hassle of changing the clocks. If Scottish people are concerned about kids going to school on dark mornings then they can just start school at 10am instead. Simple!

ToccataAndFudge Mon 29-Mar-10 21:22:57

hell no - I struggle enough in the mornings when it's dark, find it so hard to get motivated, going anywhere in the dark is shite.

I don't mind it getting darker in the evenings, at least by then I've found some motivation and got something done.

ToccataAndFudge Mon 29-Mar-10 21:23:51

"Scottish people are concerned about kids going to school on dark mornings then they can just start school at 10am instead. Simple!"

and all the business open at 10, and the childcare arrangements changing.........

kitpuss Mon 29-Mar-10 21:34:21

All this change would mean is that most people would go out in the dark in the mornings, instead of the light.
Most working people would still be coming home in the dark in the middle of winter.

And I for one would rather go out in the light than have to go out in the dark - dark in the mornings would be infinitely more depressing than coming home in the dark in the evenings.

My Mum still often talks about when they tried this in the 60s or 70s, she absolutely hated it.

SpeccieSeccie Mon 29-Mar-10 21:34:26

I live in Scotland and I think lighter later is an completely brilliant idea. Dark mornings are so much less oppressive than dark evenings.

Another oldie here who remembers this happening in the 70s, as a wee one, I hated it. At school we were all given reflective armbands etc, it was horrible, scary and dangerous. Leave well alone and as for Scottish schools starting at 10am well...biscuit

PavlovtheCat Mon 29-Mar-10 21:53:31

why don't we just stop fucking about with time completely in order to make life easier for ourselves.

pixiestix Mon 29-Mar-10 22:01:23

More daylight, me arse.
Leave it well alone.

Shitemum Mon 29-Mar-10 22:06:52

What about if we leave the clocks the way they are now but change the hours people work so that they start earlier when it's light earlier etc.

Ariesgirl Mon 29-Mar-10 22:17:54

I haven't read the whole thread so excuse me if I repeat others, but I think the idea is a bit flawed and blatantly favours the southern half of the country. In large areas of the north in the winter it will barely be light until 10am. Everyone knows how depressing it is to leave for work in the dark and get back in the dark and it won't do anything to change that. You'll just be shifting problems from one end of the day to the other. God help parents trying to get kids to sleep in the middle of June in Shetland!

moonbells Mon 29-Mar-10 22:25:51

I can argue for and against this one.

Gardener's hat on: great, I'll get another hour each evening for faffing about after ds is in bed

Mum's hat on: Oh, great... (sarcastic tone) it's bad enough getting ds to sleep when it's light as it is, let alone having to do it for even MORE months!

Astronomer's hat on: NOOOOOOOO! Bad enough having to wait past midnight in summer to see stars as it is without this making it worse!

I think the last time they tried it a group of school children were killed whilst walking to school, there was a national outcry south of the border as well as north and they scrapped it, I hate dark mornings but I don't really give a stuff either way what annoys me is the bickering and lack of concern on this thread i have lived down south and far north, those living in the south really don't realise how bleak it is in the winter and how long the winters last up here.

Beveridge Mon 29-Mar-10 22:30:27

This is madnessshock. The clocks started changing during the First World war to maximise daylight for the war effort. Last time I looked we weren't involved in total war so the whole reason even for BST doesn't exist anymore.

I live in the North of Scotland and dread even more messing about with the time. I teach in a large rural school where the majority of pupils use school transport and have to wait by the roadside for the buses. It'll be even more dangerous in the pitch black if the clocks are an hour ahead. In the summer it's really only dark for about 2 hours up here anyway, so there's no advantage for us.

Australia has different time zones and they cope. If England, Wales and Northern Ireland want to do it fine but they can leave us out of it.

As for the green angle, the only difference will be less lights on. And you can only buy energy efficient ones now so it's hardly going to save the planet.

But here's a radical idea - if you personally want an 'extra' hour of daylight, why don't you just get up earlier???! And leave me in my bed angry

ozmetric Mon 29-Mar-10 22:34:59

I'm against it. Agree with Beveridge, if you or your organisation want an 'extra' hour of daylight then just schedule things at different times

Why don't we just do what they do in sunnier climes and start the day earlier? I used to start school at 7:25am in South Africa, and we finished at 2:10. Our parents all started work at 8am and were finished at 4pm, leaving a lovely fat chunk of afternoon free for relaxing.

The seasonal light fluctuation is much less in SA, so hardly any difference between summer and winter, so getting up early when the sun set at 7pm even in high summer was definitely the way to go.

skidoodly Mon 29-Mar-10 22:47:15

If this is such a simple, no-brainer idea why aren't more countries planning to shift their time in this way?

Beveridge Mon 29-Mar-10 22:58:25

AnnieLobeseder, I presume the reason we don't start the day earlier is precisely because this country is nothing like South Africa!

Up with me, the sun sets anytime between the back of 3pm (December)and the back of 10pm (June)!grin

Spidermama Mon 29-Mar-10 23:40:12

Brilliant idea.

People tend either to be early birds or night owls and the early birds have had it their own way for too long.

I saw a programme about this once. They talked about our cortisone levels (that's the get-up-an-go hormone) peaking at different times. Some people are much better than others in the morning.

I am very much a night owl. I struggle to get up and get the kids out on time but I can work late into the night very easily.

In my view the early birds have got it their own way. Most of us are forced to go to school or work at 9 which means waking up a 7. That's ridiculously early for me and other night birds but we live with it.

At least give us some more decent quality time at the other end of the day when the toiling is over.

If it is even half as green as it's claimed then it's a complete no brainer.

Actually I think it's a bit rich for the Scots to hold southerners hostage in this way and moan about how you always get the short straw. It's still culturally acceptable to hate the English. Now you have your own parliament. Deal with it!

Pofacedagain Mon 29-Mar-10 23:46:08

I am a night owl too spidermama. But it does seem, from here at least, that the early risers are in the majority. My ds is always horrendously tired in the morning even though I try to get him to bed early [he'll stay in bed awake in the dark] and if he could start school a little bit later it would be wonderful. But it wouldn't suit most.

I do think it is a shame that the environmental aspect of this is not being taken into account though.

Spidermama Mon 29-Mar-10 23:58:54

Night owls are a minority which is being discriminated against. People don't understand and assume it's laziness. Teenagers are also discriminated against because they really do have trouble waking up in the mornings and also getting to sleep at nights. It has something to do with puberty. People assume it's just laziness.

angry

I WISH school and university started late or I wish at least there was some sort of option.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 29-Mar-10 23:59:58

Yet again a great idea for the south of england is being proposed as a great idea for the whole of the uk.

To use 10:10 own example - at xmas in edinburgh (which isn't exactly the far north!) it currently gets light at about 8:45. If this goes ahead it wouldn't be light until 9:45

Can you imagine how depressing it'd be to have nearly the first hour of your working/school day in darkness.

And to those that argue that they should simply change the school opening hours to 10AM rather than 9AM - can you imagine how completely that would screw up every working parent - unless of course you suggest that all workplaces should change their standard hours too!

I have no problem if this were a devolved issue and scotland could have a seperate time zone - but this sugestion would make things worse for everyone in scotland - not better.

So yes more "traditional opposition from scotland" for me...

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 00:03:23

No I do understand the Scotland issue. Thing is at some point we are all going to have make big changes in our way of life - they will be forced up on us - and at the moment we do not want environmental issues to inconvenience us in any way. And that is a head in the sand technique.

MotherJack Tue 30-Mar-10 01:08:11

What a stupid idea. Accidents happen, and they happen more so in the dark if the numbers are there - numbers of pedestrians going to work/school and drivers. It will not save RTAs. The whole GMT+1 summertime thing came from someone who thought it would be lovely to play tennis in the evenings for longer. It was never farmers, as conventionally believed.

We have a seasonally dependent set amount of daylight in this country. Whichever end of the day the most light is at will never suit everyone. Get over it if it doesn't. It's the bleeding time of day combined with the season!

Tambasher Tue 30-Mar-10 07:01:33

Oh I don't know, I am in Scotland and if they want to open schools (just to make us even odder) later that would be fine.

Dc could sleep until 9.00am start school at 10.00am, finish at 4/5pm and bed by 7/8pm.

Yes I like that.

Tambasher Tue 30-Mar-10 07:02:50

I don't work so could also sleep until 9.00am. smile

boredonasunday Tue 30-Mar-10 07:26:50

Haven't read whole thread but no matter how we fuck about with the time, the fact remains that we still only have a limited number of daylight hours in the winter, regardless of whether it's dark in the morning or evening. We live in the Northern hemisphere and will just have to accept it ! Plus how will we be saving energy ? Surely we will need lights on in the morning if it doens't get light until later - or are we all going to stumble around in the ptich black...

Tambasher Tue 30-Mar-10 07:47:00

I have lights on. Dc think it's during night and are still sleeping.

SweetGrapes Tue 30-Mar-10 07:53:21

I love the sheer audacity of the whole 'change the time' concept. It's almost like you think you've changed the earth's axis or something. grin
It doesn't really get you any extra hours of sunlight at all.
Where I grew up we used to go to school at 7 in the winters and at 5:30 in the summers.

School timings were changed to suit the weather and the season. Maybe the scots, english, welsh etc etc need to change their school timings to suit their particular geography, weather etc instead.

lowenergylightbulb Tue 30-Mar-10 08:04:21

Disagree with the proposal. Dark mornings are the pits. I also like the evenings drawing in in the winter.

I'm nowhere near scotland, but in the winter months it's still dark here at half sevenish - I can see no merit in extending that darkness.

TheFoosa Tue 30-Mar-10 08:35:01

I hate it when the clocks changes

stop faffing around with it

gorionine Tue 30-Mar-10 08:51:56

I want thinks to stay as they are! I love when we go back to "winter time" and I can sleep an extra hour!blush

would be rubbish for SAD sufferers who are desperate for any morning light to relieve depression.

StewieGriffinsMom Tue 30-Mar-10 09:27:52

Like AndiMac, I grew up in the middle of nowhere Northern Canada. In the winter, the sun didn't rise until we were already at school and set before we left school. I am never entirely sure about the hysteria walking in the dark brings about here.

the environmental impact argument is worth considering but anyone who suggests the Scots should just change the entire working culture to change school opening times is just taking the piss. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water. [rolls eyes]

As for RTAs, perhaps if it weren't considered a God-given right to drive a car and morons were actively prevented from driving there would be less accidents. Personally, I'd rather see mandatory re-testing every 2 years with a lifetime ban on driving if you prove to be incapable of driving safely.

Spidermama "it's still culturally acceptable to hate the Engilsh"

Yes hmm and it's clearly still acceptable to go on about Scots moaning and "holding southerners hostage"

You do realise that we just have devolution, not independence? And therefore a lot of big decisions are not decided by the Scottish Government but still come under Westminster legislation?

So - Scotland is about 10% of the UK population, a significant minority. Yet again we should put up with it, stop moaning - and change our school opening hours to fit in.

Simple biscuit

BTW I am a night owl too and I work full time so I have to suck it up. Why should the night owls hold everyone else hostage, to use your terminology?

Finona Tue 30-Mar-10 10:43:09

Spidermama: Mon 29-Mar-10 23:40:12
It's still culturally acceptable to hate the English. Now you have your own parliament. Deal with it!

The only person I have seen here spouting 'hate' is SuSylvester, and if she'd said what she did about any other nationality/racial group she'd have been rightly flamed. All the Scots have been quite reasonably pointing out the difficulties with this proposal, which is what Mumsnet asked us.

As to our own parliament, yes we do have one now, but unfortunately it doesn't have the full powers of a normal country. Changing clocks would, I presume, be a reserved matter, and therefore Westminster would still be making the decisions.

LorraineSattell Tue 30-Mar-10 11:00:53

oh su was joking. she's plummy but a jock at heart.

lostfirst Tue 30-Mar-10 11:13:21

I really really DON'T think this is a good idea. We lose an hour of light in the morning for the one we gain in the evening.
Children come home from school between 2.30 pm and 3.30 pm, so are much less affected by evening than morning darkness as they are going to scool. When this was done before accidents in the morning INCREASED!
Where is the sense in this? We have a fair compromise NOW!

hmm

NewAgain Tue 30-Mar-10 11:13:46

This idea is horse shit.

If you want to know why - buy an atlas.

Rockbird Tue 30-Mar-10 11:22:14

I keep coming back to this 'cos it annoys me that people still think it's a good idea. It's rubbish, not going to magic up a couple of extra hours of daylight, and no one could be arsed to do it anyway. Do lightbulbs use up less energy if you switch them on in the morning than if they are on at night? I mean, fgs let it drop!

You can't conjure up extra daylight by changing the clocks. It's been done before, didn't work. I don't think the benefits to the South of England are enough to outweigh the huge disbenefit to the North of England and Scotland.

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 11:35:19

A lot of the world go to school in the dark. And a lot of the world go to school earlier [and come home earlier]

Pogleswood Tue 30-Mar-10 11:37:47

This is "double summer time" isn't it? so I'm with everyone who has said it has been tried and it wasn't a success.I still have a gloomy memory of dark and cold from the last time.I was going to say "and there were more accidents" but have just searched and found this:

"Analysis of accident data during the experiment indicated that while there had been an increase in casualties in the morning, there had been a substantially greater decrease in casualties in the evening, with a total of around 2,500 fewer people killed and seriously injured during the first two winters of the experiment."

I still think it would be awful for people in the north,and anyone starting work outside early though - it wasn't nice as a child in the south! I don't remember lighter evenings at all,but I do remember the dark mornings!

I am for it, especially not having to change the clocks twice a year, I resent having to get used to the time changing and would quite happily swap darker mornings for more light in the afternoon. I live in Scotland, walking home from school is quite scary, and that is between 3.30 and 4 p.m.

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 11:53:20

Hooray! Someone in Scotland for it! grin

I lived in the States for a year and we always went to school in the dark. I think as most of Europe starts school at 8 or earlier they travel in the dark - that is my memory of what my sister told me about Germany anyway, sorry if I'm wrong. And presumably whatever problems you face walking to school in the dark you counteract by walking back from school with daylight, no?

I like it! Another vote from a nightowl who doesn't do mornings.
I think the working day should not begin til 10am but realize I am probably in a minority grin.

ClaireDeLoon Tue 30-Mar-10 12:36:15

I'm all for this idea, I love the few brief weeks when I get home from work and can sit in the garden with the evening sun, this way I'd be able to do that for more of the summer!

midnightexpress Tue 30-Mar-10 12:46:03

And another thing: 'More daylight means more time for sports and outdoor activities.'

OK now honestly - how many of you in favour of it will really be outside doing sport at 4pm on a January afternoon? What a load of cock.

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 12:50:10

LOL ME probably not. But we would stay in the playground a bit loner. And it will save energy, no? And I think it will give people a bit more freedom in the afternoons.

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 12:50:32

longer.

rlp Tue 30-Mar-10 13:04:58

I just feel it would be a shame for Greenwich not to use Greenwich Mean Time for at least part of the year. Why should we make these drastic changes when the same could be achieved on a more local level if a council chose to change school hours to 8am - 2pm and workers were given more flexi-time options by enlightened firms. The advantage there would be that it gave people choice and would not seek to impose the same solution on all communities. We have just about reached a situation where the countries in europe change to "summer" or "daylight saving time" on the same dates. Let's not mess.

rlp Tue 30-Mar-10 13:08:13

I thought I should add that I am a bit of a night owl myself and would curse a school that required me to get my child there by 8am - however it is less drastic than forcing a whole country (well the whole UK) to change the clocks.

PuppyMonkey Tue 30-Mar-10 13:30:32

I have quite a dark house so I have some of the lights on even in summer.

Iklboo Tue 30-Mar-10 13:34:05

One of the reasons they've mentioned is 'people will be able to go on holiday later in the year'

Changing the clocks isn't going to change the weather. October is still going to be October, December is still going to be December and school terms are still going to be school terms

Spidermama Tue 30-Mar-10 13:35:55

Perhaps I need to add some context to my 'Scots holding us hostage' comment.

I'm English and was brought up in Scotland. I was an open target for abuse and prejudice from teachers and other pupils alike. Honestly it was horrible being thought of as fair game. It would be racism if we were different races.

Last time my dh went to work in Inverness he came across the same old anti English stuff. It's really horrible, old fashioned bigotry.

So it riles me that the best argument against me getting lighter evenings is that it would piss off the Scots. I can't help it. It's my baggage.

skidoodly Tue 30-Mar-10 13:42:44

Darkness isn't the only thing keeping us indoors, is it?

This (lame) attempt to have the same hours of light in winter as they do in more tropical climes is bollocks all use unless we get the weather as well.

Just because we live in a Northerly country with a temperate climate does not mean our children should be stuck indoors after school or that our barbecues should be ruined.

Lighter Later campaign is hereby joined by the Drier Longer campaign:

Basically rain is shit, there is no good reason for having it at all. If we install a giant umbrella over the entire British Isles we can make sure no outdoor pursuit is ever marred by rain again.

Farmers will whine on about how they need it for their crops, but we can ignore them because they are just a bunch of useless throwbacks anyway.

Turn on the tap farmers - simples.

If the Irish disagree we'll just invade their country and take over. All the nations of these islands must be subject to the needs of the English to sit out in their gardens more.

This change will be so unbelievably brilliant. Here are some things that it will change:

1. no more wet roads to skid on, so fewer RTAs

2. massive energy savings as people stop using the tumbledryer on rainy days

3. we can finally abolish windscreen wipers

4. the people who make windscreen wipers will all get brilliant new "mac collar" jobs repairing the umbrella and also the lack of rain will automatically mean more jobs doing stuff because there will be more time for doing it

Come on Britain - let us overcome our shitty position on the globe and break free from the shackles of time and place!

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 14:07:23

Well everyone should stop using tumble driers full stop. Do people really not realise that their children and children's children will not get to have the things we take for granted? No one 'needs' a tumble drier.

And don't really agree about the weather thing. You get plenty of dry days in winter and plenty of rainy days in summer. With more daylight you still get to stay out longer in winter and use less electricity.

Chaotica Tue 30-Mar-10 14:21:05

Some of skidoodly's suggestions are genius.

But the lighter later campaign just doesn't have my support. There is no way to get 'more daylight' - tis just impossible (without the use of mirrors...)

Habbibu Tue 30-Mar-10 14:24:51

Spider, I'm English and have lived in Scotland for the best part of 20 years. I've never had any racist abuse. You and your DH have met some bigots - a shame, but no reason to tar a whole country with the same brush. And you really can't use the baggage argument without allowing the Scots their own multitude of baggages against the English, can you?

As regards the campaign - I really don't see why MN should involve themselves with this. It's not a UK wide issue, it's not that much to do with parents and children, and essentially it's a campaign against things being a bit inconvenient. Well, it's a bugger to drive on the right in Europe when we're just not used to it here - should MN campaign for the UK to start driving on the right?

Spidermama Tue 30-Mar-10 14:31:45

But Hab the Scots as a nation have had centuries to deal with their baggage. I've only had 20 years.

I will continue to work on it but it was hard being English in Aberdeen back in the 70s. Even the teacher thought I was fair game.

Habbibu Tue 30-Mar-10 14:32:51

Yeah, but poll tax etc also more recent. I'm very fond of my adopted homeland. And my children are Scottish!

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 14:39:17

But what about the energy saving aspect Habbs?

[I like Scotland btw!]

Spidermama Tue 30-Mar-10 14:44:30

But habb I didn't bring in the poll tax! Nor did 'the English' any more than 'Muslims' carried out the 7/7 bombings. It was Thatcher's government and it was widely hated by all. In fact it was English people rioting about it which contributed to its scrapping. No no no. Don't thank us. Not necessary. wink

It's old fashioned prejudice against an entire nation that you are defending.

But it's OK as it's only the English. hmm

Spidermama Tue 30-Mar-10 14:46:10

BTW I also love Scotland. I still have family there and visit regularly.

The anti English prejudice really can ruin things though. It's so embarrassing and parochial. They need to stop it now.

Habbibu Tue 30-Mar-10 14:50:47

I'm English, spider, and I was in England for the poll tax. I'm hardly going to be anti-English, am I? All I'm saying is that you can't use your own personal baggage as an argument for a general swipe at the Scots, and then deny the Scots their own baggage issues. I have no baggage - I may well think it's nonsense on both sides, but it's the logic of your argument I'm disputing.

po, I'm not overly convinced, tbh - people are fairly profligate in their energy use anyway, and it's a side issue for most people in this campaign. I just don't see this as an MN campaign.

Naetha Tue 30-Mar-10 14:52:41

Some people here are just so...obdurate.

Of course there won't be any more daylight, but there will be more usable daylight. If the average person rises at 7am and goes to sleep at 10:30, then with the proposed changes there will be more daylight during the time when people are awake and active than asleep.

The whole going to school in morning / evening in light / dark is a bit irrelevant - it's probably about 50% of the school age would benefit from such a change

Surely Scotland can have a referendum and choose not to accept the proposed changes if they want. That's their prerogative, NOT to veto any decision made by the British parliament.

At the end of the day, farming is not as big an industry as it has been in the past, and to some extent, surely much of the farming routines are dictated by daylight anyway, rather than the arbitrary impact of time. Someone said that farming would be impossible if these changes came into play. Surely if farmers can cope in the dead of winter (Dec 21st and around then) then it's not going to make it impossible if we shift to GMT+1 in winter. As previously said - no more daylight is made or lost, it's just moved to fit in with the majority of peoples' routines. Any daylight the farmers lose in the morning, they'd regain in the evening, and as I very much doubt that farmers knock off at 3pm in winter, then surely an hour of daylight at the end of the day would still be beneficial, even if not as much as an hour at the beginning.

Personally, it gets my vote. I'd love to have more daylight in the evenings, when I can actually spend my time as I want, rather than stuck in the routine dictated by the common work hours of 9-5:30.

Habbibu Tue 30-Mar-10 14:55:07

It would be interesting for people in the Borders., many of whom work/go to school on one side but live on the other - changing your watch twice a day, every day?

Saltire Tue 30-Mar-10 14:56:07

English people can be just as racist to Scots though.

skidoodly Tue 30-Mar-10 15:12:43

"I'd love to have more daylight in the evenings, when I can actually spend my time as I want, rather than stuck in the routine dictated by the common work hours of 9-5:30."

So instead of fixing the actual problem (routine dictated by common work hours) we should start pissing about with the time and just making things inconvenient and rigid but with the sun rising later?

"Surely Scotland can have a referendum and choose not to accept the proposed changes if they want. That's their prerogative, NOT to veto any decision made by the British parliament."

Do you know anything at all about devolution? In fact, why am I asking? you are utterly ignorant. It's embarrassing.

fridascruffs Tue 30-Mar-10 15:17:30

Let's just work less. Hooray!

MadameAdelaide Tue 30-Mar-10 16:04:45

I totally disagree with this. Firstly, it would still be pitch black after 9am in the middle of winter and I find it hard enough to get out of bed as it is without it being pitch black most of the morning!

Also, i can't imagine it giving children loads of opportunity to play outside after school, in winter it will still get dark at 5pm if not earlier in mid winter. And also the weather in mid winter will still be the same as it always is, ie possibly pouring rain, blizzard, ice etc etc and like another poster said this is generally why children don't play outside as much in the winter, regardless of how dark it is, its just a fact of life - its called winter!

I can't see how it will save electricity either, you will just have to have your lights on more in the morning rather than in the afternoons. And children may come out of school in the light but they will be going in in the dark, its just swings and roundabouts, there is nothing to be gained here.

I really do not see that there is a big problem with things the way they are.

If you have a real problem with it being darker in the winter then you need to think about moving to Spain or something in my opinion because Britain is what it is, you can't change it!

MadameAdelaide Tue 30-Mar-10 16:13:16

like Iklboo says, october will still be october, november will still be november etc. changing the clocks will not mean that we will all be sitting out in the garden after work drinking sangria in november!

Anyway, I personally quite like the dark evenings in the winter and cosying up in front of the fire with the curtains closed and wind holwing outside. And what about at Christmas, its nice when it gets dark early and we can see all the nice lights and decorations. If we change the clocks we will all have to have our fairy lights on in the mornings!

I suppose we are not really meant to have fairy lights at Christmas in order to save the environment though confused

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 16:15:31

Fairy lights could be LEDS. And a drop in the ocean when you consider all office buildings are left with lights on all night every night. But it is SO boring talking about the environment I know.

Spidermama - if you like your evenings lighter, why don't you move back to Scotland? grin

Habbibu Tue 30-Mar-10 16:34:07

It's not bori9ng to talk about the environment, po, but yoru example of office lights is much better than campaigning to change time settings - why not campaign for people to switch the damn lights off when NoOne is In the Building?

<sorry for typing - am all fired up from ranting at Angela Tilbury on the radio>

Actually spidermama good on you for being honest about your baggage. You were unlucky. I've worked with lots of English people (in Scotland) and they have not come up against any issues with being English and living here. Maybe it just depends where you are.

On the other side, as Habbibu says, we do have some baggage of our own - and if you have ever been Scottish and lived or worked in London for e.g. then you will probably have your own tales to tell of anti-Scottish nonsense.

I love the comment about a referendum for Scotland, yeah, that's right, we get to vote in those all the time when we don't like a piece of legislation.

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 17:06:46

Well there is www.wearewhatwedo.org/actions/view/21/this Habbs. But people don't seem to take much notice. And I don't think they'll take much notice of this either. We could do both and save more energy or we could do neither. And I wish there was a campaign to get rid of blasted tumble driers actually. I hate the sodding things.
We are going to have to find ways to reduce our energy consumption. But every time an idea is suggested, people say 'that is inconvenient' No one wants to make changes to their lives. I know our lives are difficult enough [though not compared to most of the world] but many forget in our children's lifetimes things will have to change. And by then it may be too late. So I'm afraid I want much more change and much more drastic energy reduction right now.
<pofaced>

midnightexpress Tue 30-Mar-10 17:07:39

Yes, I agree. Why can't we campaign for dark offices at night before we start on something that will inconvenience and depress a large minority of the population?

When are MNHQ coming back on this?

midnightexpress Tue 30-Mar-10 17:10:59

Po, if you are in favour of this one and anti- tumble driers, I suggest you never move to Scotland. grin

A house full of wet washing on a sodden <dark> January day. Think of the Curse of the Wonkers, is all I say.

(I know I know I know they are the devil's work though)

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 17:11:57

Why don't all new builds have solar panels installed for hot water at least? New housing could be made so much greener, but no one gives a fuck. And I find that utterly, utterly depressing.

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 17:15:36

LOL ME.

When I lived in a flat it was a problem. But now we have stairs and I hang everything on a pulley hanger above the stairs on the ceiling. Dries quite quick. And an outside line for windy days.

But another thing that annoys me is dishwashers and I have one. It is the drying cycle that is the most energy consuming - and I really don't see why we need our plates to be dried by so much hot air. There should be dishwasher cycles that set to wash only.

midnightexpress Tue 30-Mar-10 17:20:12

YYY to that, Po. It is very depressing. I think in Belfast there is a scheme of social housing being built though with central heating only as an occasional backup - so energy efficient that it doesn't need it, apparently. here

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 17:22:21

Looks good ME. The govt could be making that kind of thing compulsory for new builds. I'd find it laughable that they don't if I weren't so depressed by it.

brockyg Tue 30-Mar-10 17:53:55

Yes please, love it.

Fliight Tue 30-Mar-10 18:38:30

I don't really care much which way they do it but I do wish they would stop the twice a year clock changes. It's so hard to adapt to and remember and so on.

I also think school days should be more European full stop - and working hours.

Soojie Tue 30-Mar-10 18:56:36

IHow about a compromise? wink

Put clocks back at the end of November and then move them forward at the end of February? It is quite a lot lighter in the morning by end of Feb, and after enduring a long dark winter I'd love to have some of that daylight at the end of my day.

Uriel Tue 30-Mar-10 19:16:26

Tumbledriers are a godsend for those with bedwetting children, or teenagers.

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 19:42:02

Yes I can see that Uriel. And for those who care for incontinent older people. But not necessary for general population.

fluffles Tue 30-Mar-10 20:03:05

for those who say this is an environmental issue - why the hell don't we just turn all the damned lights OFF through may, june and july when it's barely dark at all.

simples.

Pumphreydidit Tue 30-Mar-10 20:07:59

I would fall over the guinea pig cage in the long dark hall, fluffles, even in June.

StewieGriffinsMom Tue 30-Mar-10 20:11:53

Turning down the heat and putting on a sweater would surely make a better impact on the environment.

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 20:17:28

well of course fluffles. But there is an energy saving in summer, don't you notice on your electricity bills?

pofaced it depresses me too

but re tumble driers - I would struggle to get things like sheets dry

West of Scotland, so even in the summer it is very wet and the warmth you need to dry clothes outside lasts about 3 months of the year

I don't have a spare room or utility room to hang up washing so we permanently have clothes driers cluttering our living room even with some use of the tumble drier

My other non-green option is just to turn on the heating and dry everything on radiators

I think I count myself as part of the general population though

How should I dry my washing?

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 20:26:07

You need one of these on your ceiling. Heat rises so the warm air is around your ceiling. Do you have stairs? Installing them on the ceiling at the top of the stairs is a good space saver, that's what we do. But it is difficult in small spaces. And I find clothes dry well outside if it is windy, regardless of temperature. In Italy they have pulley driers and hang them out of the window.

But I know it is difficult. There ought to be communal drying spaces in flats, though I know that brings its own problems [pervy neighbour rifling through your knickers] grin

desireepotato Tue 30-Mar-10 20:33:42

I don't really care - within limits - what time they call it, as long as it's the same all year round. Has anybody yet done the research on how many people have rows, accidents and so on because our bodies are thoroughly confused for several weeks after every clock change? How much sleep and school concentration do children lose? Despite stable routines, my two are very disturbed after clocks go back or forward for quite a while, I imagine because of the sudden change in light patterns. Barmy to keep changing it.

Granny23 Tue 30-Mar-10 21:16:27

'You will also note that Scotland is directly north of England'. I am always correcting this misconception. We have all looked at straight up and down weather maps for too long.

In fact all of Scotland is at least 2 degrees to the WEST of Greenwich and some + some of Northern Ireland is as much as 8 degrees west. On the continent and across America time zones change as you move further west because the sun rises one hour later for every 15 degrees of longditude. This means that sunrise & sunset are half an hour later in the far west of the UK than they are at Greewich. Had the meridian been set somewhere more central such as Swansea, Plymouth or Glasgow every part of the country would have quarter of an hour or less deviation between clock time and real time. I understand that in Cornwall people, having set their clocks and watches using sundials, went about their daily lives quite the thing until the arrival of railways when it became obvious that Cornish clocks were 20 minutes behind London clocks.

So not only is Scotland disadvantaged by less daylight in winter, which cannot be changed, its real time is always behind 'clock time' which is a variable man made concept. In a very real way the UKs time is set in, by, and for London. Another of the dubious benefits of a United Kingdom.

Granny23 Tue 30-Mar-10 21:21:18

Also meant to comment on MN's 'favour extra daylight hour?' by line. No one gets any more daylight from this proposal. I cannot see why they are becoming involved in this relatively trivial but obviously contentious campaign.

LorraineSattell Tue 30-Mar-10 21:22:46

<worships at feet of granny23>

JackRabbitBauer Tue 30-Mar-10 21:50:08

Thank you granny23, that is my new thing I have learnt todaysmile
I vote for Swansea Mean Time btwgrin

PricklyThistle Tue 30-Mar-10 22:00:10

So Mumsnet what do YOU think?

midnightexpress Tue 30-Mar-10 22:11:59

Nono Jackrabbit, it should be Glasgow Mean Time and then we won't even need to change the initials, see?

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 22:16:03

'so not only is Scotland disadvantaged by less daylight in winter, which cannot be changed'

Yes that's the point. It will just be lighter and darker at different times. And it will benefit other parts of the country and makes sense environmentally. But never mind.

LorraineSattell Tue 30-Mar-10 22:16:57

yyy to glasgow mean time. problem solved.

skidoodly Tue 30-Mar-10 22:21:59

yay for Granny23

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 22:34:06

<imagines Granny 23 dressed in a kilt doing her geography speech William Wallace style over her troops Mumsnetters

wink

midnightexpress Tue 30-Mar-10 22:46:17

Po, I'm going to kidnap you and make you live in Aberdeen for a year if you don't stop it.

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 22:48:25

grin

Mull. Can I live on Mull?

midnightexpress Tue 30-Mar-10 22:55:36

No you can't. And if you don't stop trying to plunge us into perpetual darkness we won't even let you visit.

Pofacedagain Tue 30-Mar-10 23:19:12

It is always very light in the evenings on Mull when we're there. <runs>

JackRabbitBauer Tue 30-Mar-10 23:20:25

OOh, you are all being dead welshist innit!

rlp Wed 31-Mar-10 00:18:32

I'm not supporting the cause but I'm happy that it is appropriate for MN to raise the issue as it is something that gets people talking and that is what MN is all about! I am sorry to see some posts turn unpleasant but most of it is good banter.

Granny23 Wed 31-Mar-10 00:25:27

Basking in the glow from the comments above, I thank you.

For my next trick - I have a cunning plan to ensure we all get more daylight. Everyone from Up North could move Down South for the winter, then, everyone from Down South could move Up North in the Summer. That should not cause too much disruption, must be easy to organise - birds do it all the time.

My second plan was to travel from Lowestoft to Fermanagh in a day, therby getting an extra half hour of daylight at any time of year. I have, however, realised this will not work because you would lose the half hour when you travelled back.

midnightexpress Wed 31-Mar-10 09:25:10

Plus you'd probably spend the half hour stuck in a traffic jam on the M6 granny23. Then stuck for another half hour on the way back and you're actually working at a loss (I think).

However, I like your thinking on the moving. I wonder if perhaps all the yaysayers would like to come and spend a winter up here before any decisions are made? We're famed for our hospitality, you know, and we give good Hogmanay.

<dons pinny>
<apparently they all eat macaroons>

MadameAdelaide Wed 31-Mar-10 09:52:09

this has probably been said before, I have not read entire thread but surely this is the reason they cannot do this:

At the moment, presuming an average 9am to 3.30pm for most schools (I know a few are earlier/later) but going on the 9am to 3.30pm all year round children go to school AND come back in the daylight, as even in mid winter it is still just light at 3.30. However, if they bring in proposed change then for weeks on end in the winter ALL children will be going into school in the complete darkness. I'm not happy about the thought of that.

Therefore, Mumsnet why are you doing this? I would value my childrens safety to and from school above saving energy any day.

MadameAdelaide Wed 31-Mar-10 09:56:09

and by the way I do my best to save energy, all our light bulbs are energy saving, I recycle everything etc, but I cannot agree with this.

skidoodly Wed 31-Mar-10 10:58:36

I don't think we can ask the Scots to live in darkness in Winter in a questionable effort to save energy while people are quite open about running cars for fun.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/938923-To-want-DH-to-buy-a-car-with-enough-seats?msgid= 19126273

purpledolphin Wed 31-Mar-10 11:15:17

I'd like to see studies to see when the most RTA s occur. Common sense would say that you are more alert in the morning and therefore better able to deal with the dark than in the evening...... but when these things are researched common sense is not always proved right, lets go for the safest option be as it is now, GMT+1 all year or GMT+1 in winter and GMT+2 in summer

skidoodly Wed 31-Mar-10 11:19:41

Also, why is this being called "double summertime" instead of Central European Time?

GentleOtter Wed 31-Mar-10 11:24:06

Granny23 for Prime Minister. Someone with common sense.

It got dark here about 8.30 pm (7.30 in real time wink and in the height of summer, gets dimmish around 10.45pm.
The depths of winter, it gets dark from 2.30 pm and I am never sure when it gets light in the morning as I'm never properly awake then.

To those posters who had a good bitch about the farmers - go forth and multiply. Water is charged on a meter and the costs will show on your food bill.

Has anyone actually let Scotland know that it is summer time yet? We are snowed in as usual.

Pofacedagain Wed 31-Mar-10 11:27:19

OK can we have some energy saving suggestions please, perhaps even commitments from those of you who are so outraged by this proposal? A useful diversion of energy?

I do understand why you are cross. Though a lot of the world do go to school in the dark already as mentioned. But every time an energy saving suggestion is made, everyone seems to be up in arms about it.

midnightexpress Wed 31-Mar-10 11:48:11

Well, aksherly Po, 'tis the Scots who are covering their landscape with wind farms (I can see about a hundred of them from the top of the hill I live on, and are making significant investment in offshore wind power. More info here.

Pofacedagain Wed 31-Mar-10 12:13:04

'The Scottish government has a target of generating 31% of Scotland's electricity from renewable energy by 2011 and 50% by 2020. The majority of this is likely to come from wind power.'

That is brilliant. I could poke our government in the collective eyes, I really could.

But individually we do need to make serious changes.
<dons spectacles, more pofaced than ever>

Pofaced - a pulley!!! I love them.

Cursed with low ceilings though... <ponders>

Scotland is doing stuff with wave power too - god sorry that is vague - hold on, I will google

abride Wed 31-Mar-10 13:03:45

I HATE wind farms. They are ugly and inefficient. Five turbines went up near us and every time I see them they make me hiss. As far as I can work out they provide enough energy to keep a couple of houses going. Roll that out across England and we'd look like a porcupine. And still wouldn't have enough power.

LorraineSattell Wed 31-Mar-10 13:04:44

we have a six bar pulley. <preens>

wave power

Apologies for linking to the Daily Record blush but since it is normally pro-Labour through and through I thought it was interesting that it's published a semi-positive story about the Scottish Government

Love the cheesy headline

Lorraine envy

abride it's so subjective. I think they look dramatic and beautiful in their own way. There are loads in the countryside around us. I'd have no problem with them being rolled out across Scotland as part of a package of different measures

midnightexpress I just looked at your link - didn't realise Whitelee was the biggest UK wind farm. It's just down the road from us.

Apparently the visitor centre is cool.

midnightexpress Wed 31-Mar-10 13:27:10

Yes, I've heard that too - must take a trip. You must be near us doggie (S Lanarks).

I think one of the proposed ones is going to be the biggest in Europe - the Clyde Valley one?

We're in SW Glasgow, and lots of family in S Lanarks so we are on the southern orbital road/M77 a lot.

I'd heard that about the Clyde one (down near Crawford?). I know people in the area are unhappy about it - I don't know when it is going up.

Pofacedagain Wed 31-Mar-10 18:32:27

I love the look of wind farms. They look a hell of a lot nicer than a nuclear power station, for a start.

plum100 Wed 31-Mar-10 19:38:33

Sounds like a plan.... could you also campaign to change the summer hols from wet and overcast August, to the seemingly more sunnier, drier May/June time? grin

Pofacedagain Wed 31-Mar-10 19:40:34

Brilliant plum! <starts website campaign>

Pofacedagain Wed 31-Mar-10 19:41:27

It has rained for 3 consecutive Augusts where I live. Painful.

plum100 Wed 31-Mar-10 19:50:32

Yes I have been aware of the weather since dd started school - we always have to camp in june and take her out of school to get the nice weather. The last few years the summer hols have been really really naff. Why cant we be off when its nice?

midnightexpress Wed 31-Mar-10 20:03:32

<ahem>

Move to Scotland.

Pofacedagain Wed 31-Mar-10 20:10:43

What you mean it doesn't rain in August in Scotland ME?
grin

midnightexpress Wed 31-Mar-10 20:12:45

ROFL. If only. There's a reason we're building all those wind turbines, you know.

No, I mean we break up in June and have the good sense to send our children back to school in the middle of August.

Granny23 Wed 31-Mar-10 20:26:19

Another of my crackpot policies is to have SUNdays on sunny days. i.e. first day of the week whem the sun is shining is a day off. If the day formerly known as Sunday is wet you just work as normal.

If we were not all in the straight jacket of common working hours created during the industrial revolution we could all use our daylight hours to our own advantage and take days off, holidays when the forecast was fine. Unfortunately there is no chance of TURNING THE CLOCK BACK now! grin

Habbibu Wed 31-Mar-10 20:58:19

Oh, SHUSH, ME! Am trying to book a holiday in Englabnd and take advantage of cheaper late June/early Jul prices, and here you go giving the game away.

Actually, I still can't get my head round children starting school in Aug. It just feels wrong.

I'm starting to love Granny23.

midnightexpress Wed 31-Mar-10 22:01:10

grin. I know, me too. DS1 will seem so much smaller in Aug when he starts school than in serious old autumnal September, which is the proper time to start school (and, coincidentally, also often rather sunny).

granny23, you're getting quite a fan club.

Pofacedagain Wed 31-Mar-10 22:11:14

I like the idea of breaking up in June though. Are there actually jobs and stuff in Scotland then? <considers moving>

midnightexpress Wed 31-Mar-10 22:20:03

You could get a job at the local wind farm Po.

<realise now I look at it that that comment could be construed as rather rude in several ways, but the intended meaning is 'with all your environmental knowledge and all'>

purpledolphin Wed 31-Mar-10 22:22:46

Perhaps this is an argument for changing the school holiday system... its a nightmare for anyone who works except may be teacher and caravan/campsite owners who double or treble the price in school holidays....we are going on holiday in the whit 1/2 term instead of the summer. I'd love to see 2 weeks holidays for whit and October 1/2 terms and 3weeks for Easter and summer breaks. This would maximise the chances of catching some good weather in the holidays, enhance children's learning by providing shorter terms and hopefully reduce prices for actually going on holiday!

Pofacedagain Wed 31-Mar-10 22:37:50

<eats curry in preparation>

Habbibu Thu 01-Apr-10 10:18:13

Oh, come and live here, Po, it's fab.

Pofacedagain Thu 01-Apr-10 11:06:45

Is it really Habbs? Tell me more go on, so I can try to persuade dh. [though I suspect changing employment at present might be tricky]

LorraineSattell Thu 01-Apr-10 11:17:19

it is lush where habs lives, i can concur.

Habbibu Thu 01-Apr-10 11:30:30

Beaches, forests, river, driest place in Scotland - can see river, mountains and city from my bedroom window. 1 hr from Edinburgh and 1.5hr from Glasgow, so shopping easy. And fruit farms everywhere, so you can't move for raspberries in the summer - plus venison cheap(ish) and plentiful.

LorraineSattell Thu 01-Apr-10 11:33:28

and fish, habs, tell her about the fish.

Pofacedagain Thu 01-Apr-10 11:34:08

Does sound lovely, it really does.

LorraineSattell Thu 01-Apr-10 11:34:25

(must bring those blasted presents soon. actually i think your ds has totally outgrown his toy)

Pofacedagain Thu 01-Apr-10 11:34:47

Fish? You can see fish from your bedroom window?

LorraineSattell Thu 01-Apr-10 11:34:54

(don't tell her how FREAKIN cold it is)

Pofacedagain Thu 01-Apr-10 11:42:42

grin

midnightexpress Thu 01-Apr-10 14:01:52

Po, move here and you could spend your weekends:

here

or here

or here

or maybe here

<keeps very quiet about this and this>

Habbibu Thu 01-Apr-10 14:30:58

Lorraine's eyes must be better than mine! But I did see ice floes in the winter.

Habbibu Thu 01-Apr-10 14:31:48

quite like how this has turned into mn campaign for po to move tp scotland!

midnightexpress Thu 01-Apr-10 15:43:54

so long as they don't change the clocks...

Pofacedagain Thu 01-Apr-10 17:20:12

You know I do secretly look at properties on Mull on RightMove from time to time. But this whole 'offers over' business terrifies the life out of me. But anyway. You've convinced me. Now gissa job.

grin

Habbibu Thu 01-Apr-10 19:15:39

Offers over dying a death a bit, I think. Lots more fixed price and offers around stuff these days. But Mull? Are you living in the sticks atm?

Pofacedagain Thu 01-Apr-10 21:02:52

No. But I love it there. Would be horrible for the children when they turn 9 though. Want to know where you live <nosy>

Habbibu Thu 01-Apr-10 21:53:22

NE Fife, po. Not the famous bit, but not far away.

PricklyThistle Sun 04-Apr-10 03:10:12

So, I still ask, what is Mumsnet's take on this - do you think it's a campaign worth backing?

joonie Wed 07-Apr-10 12:22:07

Was it not introduced, not to improve the safety of kids, but to increase the amount of time (exploitation of) farm workers working for landowners up north.

IntergalacticHussy Thu 25-Aug-11 20:12:07

I object on two grounds.

1, spurious calculations on carbon emissions

2, bastardisation of Nick Drake's wonderful album title

ElizabethTaylor Wed 07-Sep-11 01:16:55

Okay, this may be totally unrealistic but personally I would like - shorter school holidays, especially the summer holiday. Christmas holidays are too long also. School days made a little shorter, starting from say 9.30am. Maybe even later in winter time to 10.30. I think clocks should just stay the same all year round. But then... Workwise companies would also have to adjust their times. smile

OuchPassVodka Wed 07-Sep-11 03:44:29

Just no. Sorry. But no.

pamplemousserose Wed 07-Sep-11 03:55:17

The Scots can do what they want, I'd certainly welcome this in England.

OvO Wed 07-Sep-11 04:18:54

Old thread.

And stupid idea.

SexyDomesticatedDab Fri 23-Sep-11 10:59:57

Great idea - more time in the evenings to do stuff.

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