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just had a run in with the maternity ward bounty photographer

(801 Posts)

And having previously defended them and loved my pictures of my eldest children todays 'rep' has made me agree they need to be removed from wards!

She arrived originally before breakfast turned on the lights and opened curtains waking me and the other Mum up, then continued to talk over the peadiatrician who was checking my dd over.

Eventually she sulked off but apparently came back when I was asleep (how dare I?) Last time she came back as I'd just settled dd and was eating lunch which had just arrived.

I said No photos at the minute thanks she got most insistant that its for security reasons?? (I'm going home today) and said she'd just lean round and take them, dd was asleep on my lap in a v pillow whilst I ate. I said again, not right now I'm eating she left brochures and went off muttering quite loudly.

I'm hormonal so ofc this has upset me, but not as much as the first time mum across they way! WHY are these people allowed to just walk around a maternity ward being so fucking rude!

FryOneFatChristmasTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 12:52:02

Can you remind me of the wording? I'll have a look if it helps, might be able to suggest something.

OhDearNigel Thu 27-Dec-12 12:55:52

The reasons they give for rejecting a petition are:

- contain information which may be protected by an injunction or court order
- contain material that is potentially confidential, commercially sensitive or which may cause personal distress or loss
- include the names of individuals if they have been accused of a crime or information that may identify them
- include the names of individual officials who work for public bodies, unless they are part of the senior management of those organisations
- include the names of family members of elected representatives, eg MPs, or officials who work for public bodies

My original wording is somewhere upthread, I can't see how any of these reasons relate to it unless naming an organisation that undertakes nefarious business practices is "commercially sensitive".

If so I'll just change the petition titled from "Keep Bounty Reps out of PN Wards" to "keep salespeople from harassing new mothers on PN wards". However I believe that naming Bounty is key as it is so often associated with the NHS and assumed to be part and parcel of the same thing. I am going to try and find someone to email and query it.

OhDearNigel Thu 27-Dec-12 12:57:53

Original wording:

Keep Bounty representatives out of Postnatal Wards
Department of Health

Bounty is a commercial company that survives by targetting new mothers to obtain details which are sold on to 3rd parties at great profit. Mothers routinely report unpleasant harassment from the Bounty reps who are given free access to postnatal wards; mothers who do not comply are insulted or even subjected to theft of their personal information from nursing stations. Women are pressured into purchasing expensive photographs, lied to that they will not be able to get child benefit without complying and photographs are necessary for hospital security. Mothers are disturbed while trying to feed their babies, sleep or consult with medical staff.
I would like the government to look at curbing the activities of this commercial organisation which has no place in a hospital. Cancer patients would not be subjected to such aggressive marketing when they were recovering from surgery, why should a post natal mother ?

RedToothbrush Thu 27-Dec-12 12:59:07

How about something along the lines of:

To stop the exploitation and invasion the privacy of women on post natal wards by commercial companies which is being enabled by NHS contracts for photography and or data collection.

HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly Thu 27-Dec-12 12:59:40

How about demanding that the NHS stops allowing salespeople on maternity wards?

It's a change in the NHS we need, so make the wording about the NHS not about the company?

Saccrofolium Thu 27-Dec-12 13:01:13

Take out the company name. If a competitor, or the Daily Express was reading that, they'd be running their hands and that's what makes it commercially sensitive. For sensitive, read "potentially damaging."

FryOneFatChristmasTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 13:05:06

Reading the terms and conditions for e-petitions, I agree that removing the company name and directing it at the NHS might be the key. Bounty would still know it's directed at them, but would be less likely to object to it.

RedToothbrush Thu 27-Dec-12 13:12:15

Removing the name means they can't object to it UNLESS they admit to the failings mentioned!

FryOneFatChristmasTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 13:18:04

I've tweaked the wording, below, and thanks to all cos I nicked some ideas to put together.

To stop the exploitation and invasion the privacy of women on post natal wards by commercial companies which is being enabled by NHS contracts for photography and or data collection.

Department of Health

Many NHS maternity units have entered into contracts with commercial companies to target new mothers to obtain their personal details which are then sold on to 3rd parties at great profit. Sales representatives of these commercial companies are given free access to postnatal wards as part of the contracts with the NHS. Mothers routinely report unpleasant harassment from these sales reps; mothers who refuse to give personal details are often insulted or even have their details stolen from nursing stations. Women are pressured into purchasing expensive photographs; are lied to that they will not be able to claim child benefit if they do not comply and that photographs are necessary for hospital security. Mothers are disturbed whilst trying to feed their babies, sleep or in consultation with medical staff.
I would like the government to look at curbing the activities of commercial organisations which have no place in a hospital. Cancer patients would not be subjected to such aggressive marketing when they were recovering from surgery, why should a post natal mother ?

Saccrofolium Thu 27-Dec-12 13:19:34

Yes direct to NHS, as they are the customer/payee of Bounty. "The Government" doesn't actually mean anything in this situation.

In fact, to affect real measurable change you need to tackle this Trust by Trust as each Trust is an independent entity.

What are your main objectives of this campaign?

Lomaamina Thu 27-Dec-12 13:22:17

Hello there - great you're persevering. Can I suggest two changes:

change "great profit" to "profit" (unless you have data on the 'great' aspect!)
Reword last sentence:

This petition calls on the government to look at...
Remove rhetorical question. I think it's punchier to end with the above, the outcome sought.

Loma

FryOneFatChristmasTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 13:31:19

Okay, have taken suggestions and altered, think it's better.

To stop the exploitation and invasion the privacy of women on post natal wards by commercial companies which is being enabled by NHS contracts for photography and or data collection.

Department of Health

Many NHS maternity units have entered into contracts with commercial companies to target new mothers to obtain their personal details which are then sold on to 3rd parties for profit. Sales representatives of these commercial companies are given free access to postnatal wards as part of the contracts with the NHS. Mothers routinely report unpleasant harassment from these sales reps; mothers who refuse to give personal details are often insulted or even have their details stolen from nursing stations. Women are pressured into purchasing expensive photographs; are lied to that they will not be able to claim child benefit if they do not comply and that photographs are necessary for hospital security. Mothers are disturbed whilst trying to feed their babies, sleep or in consultation with medical staff.
I would like the government to look at curbing the activities of commercial organisations which have no place in a hospital. Cancer patients would not be subjected to such aggressive marketing when they were recovering from surgery.

Saccrofolium Thu 27-Dec-12 13:31:42

"To stop the exploitation and invasion the privacy of women on post natal wards by commercial companies which is being enabled by NHS contracts for photography and or data collection. "

This bit needs redoing IMO.
This is because the first thing that Bounty would say is that they're not exploiting/invading, they're offering a service and just because you've found a few pissed off women that means nothing.
As we've seen from this thread Bounty consider - and are considered by some healthcare professionals - to be a part of the "team". So that's the bit that needs addressing - changing the way in which Bounty work and the guidelines for behaviour.
So something along the lines of requesting that Trust patients can only be approached by HCPs and their own visitors, rather than a campaign to vilify Bounty.
Does that make sense?

Saccrofolium Thu 27-Dec-12 13:33:10

(Professional role is managing the relationship between the NHS and a manufacturer, btw!)

RedToothbrush Thu 27-Dec-12 13:34:24

My suggestion for the main objectives would be:

To establish that the NHS has a duty of care to patients (namely privacy) that is being neglected for financial gain.
To establish that Trading Standards are being broken as women on post natal wards are vulnerable and the NHS is allowing commercial companies to deliberately exploit this vulnerability for financial gain.
To establish that these third parties are not conducting themselves on NHS premises to an acceptable level of conduct which employees employed directly to the NHS would held accountable.
To establish that the NHS is not taking full responsibility for third parties operating on its premises and is not able to hold them fully accountable where failings are occurring.
To make sure that patients are fully aware of the presence of commercial companies and their interests at all times.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 27-Dec-12 13:49:57

I another suggestion where you say NHS can you also say NHS Scotland? They are completely separate, but Bounty operates in both.

Saccrofolium Thu 27-Dec-12 13:50:06

I think what you've written is a methodology. What outcome are you really looking for?

Saccrofolium Thu 27-Dec-12 13:57:39

For example:

"To ensure that patients are not contacted directly by anyone from a commercial organisation."

Allergictoironing Thu 27-Dec-12 14:12:20

It may need a bit more emphasis on the vulnerability of the women, maybe even noting that these women are often still under the influence of drugs used during birth or are physically and/or emotionally exhausted?

RedToothbrush Thu 27-Dec-12 14:16:52

Ok. Outcomes:
To get NHS take their responsibility to patients first ahead of commercial enterprise and to protect the rights and privacy of patients and for them to be treated with respect, sensitivity and dignity at a vulnerable point in their life.

I've just bite the bullet and submitted four FOI Requests at http://www.whatdotheyknow.com, pretty much as above to (if I don't do it now, I fear I'll completely bottle it and not do it otherwise):
Western Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust (as the OP and one other poster said that their experience with Bounty was at West Sussex, so there does seem to be an issue here)
Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust (Trust mentioned in this article from last year)
Central Manchester University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust (Local to me)
University Hospital of South Manchester NHS Foundation Trust (Again Local to me).

They are entitled "How the Trust ensures proper safeguarding whilst allowing Bounty to operate on their premises" if anyone wants to search (I'm having trouble finding a link that works, possibly cos I'm logged on)

TBH, even if the request is refused hopefully its going to the right place, and hopefully will raise an eyebrow or get the Trusts to think about whether there is an issue that they need to consider. Maybe thats wishful thinking...

You can only try, and the worst thing to happen is it will be refused. Can always try again in that event, I guess.

Saccrofolium Thu 27-Dec-12 14:23:45

I think doing this trust by trust is the only way. Your outcome - I can totally see where you're coming from but I think it needs to be less emotional and blaming, and more clear in what you would like to happen.

You need to find the decision makers who allow/benefit from Bounty having access to patients, and find their reasoning, and work with it. If for example Bounty are providing say £5k for a refitted birthing pool in return for patient access then that needs to be absolutely overt, and made public throughout the Trust and its Trustees.
Hospitals are notoriously difficult to sell into and deal with, but Bounty are doing something which gets them in, in a way very few other companies can. That's the bit you need to find out.

FryOneFatChristmasTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 14:27:29

Well, I gave it a shot, and I'm happy to let others take it forward with better ideas. (I have to log off now, DD needs the laptop.)

RedToothbrush Thu 27-Dec-12 14:32:52

Hence the FOIRs approach being the one I favour.

A petition is useful to get publicity again though.

It makes it a 'story' and makes it easier to get interest from the press, particularly the likes of the BBC and maybe journalists who have covered the subject before.

Its probably worth contacting the NCT over it too.

And emails to Jeremy Hunt/Andy Burnham (Health) Maria Miller/Yvetter Cooper (Womens and Equality) wouldn't be bad.

And of course local politicians.

Oh and seeing if MNHQ will officially support.

RedToothbrush Thu 27-Dec-12 14:35:22

Fry, good on you for trying. People are interested and want to support it. I hope someone can put something together and submit it.

ihearsounds Thu 27-Dec-12 15:15:30

Only ever had one run in with the pita bounty woman. When I had dd2, we were in hospital for 10 days because of complications. I was very down, missing my oter children, wanting to be home, bascially the onset of pnd.
Pita bounty lady was coming 4 times a day. even back then (15 years) they lied and mentioned the pics were for security reasons, and without her no cb.. Kept saying no. She knew I was the same person, and each time said oh you changed your mind yet, realised you need the form or other shite.
Fourth day, I snapped. I asked her of she was stupid or plain ignorant. That she has been harassing myself and others on the ward, had a mum in tears. Told her if she didn't fuck off and leave me alone I would personally sue her arse for harrassment, and was already speaking to a solicitor for a restraining order.
She didnt give a shit. She smiled and said I was only like this because of my hormones. Staff asked her to leave and helped me put in a complaint. Result, they are only allowed on the ward once a day, amd only during visiting hours..
Complain. Complain. And complain more. Dont bother complaining to bounty, they dont care and deny any of this happens.

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