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Lads' mags in children's sight: the game is ON!

(171 Posts)
RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 14-Dec-10 13:55:26

After canvassing your views, we're extending Let Girls Be Girls to cover the issue of lads' mags on display where children can see them in newsagents, supermarkets, stationers and petrol stations. Have a look at our press release and survey results here. We're contacting all the major retailers to ask them to sign up, and will keep you posted about how that goes. If you'd like to cull some copy from the press release to compose your own letter to your local independent newsagent, please feel free, and post here to let us know what you've done.

Some of the retailers have asked us for examples of individual stores that are presenting problems, so if you've seen material inappropriately displayed in a specific branch, again, please post here and we'll pass the information on.



Guacamohohohole Tue 14-Dec-10 14:02:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

nickytwotimes Tue 14-Dec-10 14:11:45

tesco, ayr.

tonnes of them.

ShrinkingViolet Tue 14-Dec-10 14:13:37

Morrisons have white boxes that they sit in on the top shelf - so all you can see is the names of the magazines.
Credit where credit's due!

ChristmasTrulyReigns Tue 14-Dec-10 14:37:00

I've noticed that in Morrisons too.

Well done.

Thin end of a very big wedge though.

Dalrymps Tue 14-Dec-10 15:07:11

Tescos and asda, both in full view.

Dalrymps Tue 14-Dec-10 15:08:20

Should have said, Tecsos and Asda in Berwick although I suspect it's all of them.

Dalrymps Tue 14-Dec-10 15:28:32

Brilliant campaign by the way!

TheProvincialLady Tue 14-Dec-10 16:26:07

Sainsburys in Queens Road, Leicester, stocks the Star just above The Guardianhmm

sethstarkaddersmum Tue 14-Dec-10 17:03:29

I love you MNHQ!

LadyBlaBlah Tue 14-Dec-10 17:04:24

I would wish for this campaign that the retailers would ditch these pathetic magazines totally, never mind putting them out of view.

They are a craze gone flat anyway

The distribution figures for Nuts, Zoo and Loaded are falling through the floor.

The first one to take the lead and use their valuable retail space for something else would get such great PR

theagedparent Tue 14-Dec-10 17:05:09

Costcutter in my town has The sport in with all other newspapers and the likes of Nuts/Zoo on low shelves.

BeenBeta Tue 14-Dec-10 17:40:08

The best way to deal with this issue is to ask your men folk not to buy these publications.

We dont have them in our house and I am sure that if all women talked to their DH/DP/son, explained why they feel strongly about them and asked them not to buy them then sales would fall sharply.

Magazines that dont sell get shut down.

sethstarkaddersmum Tue 14-Dec-10 17:45:25

it doesn't take much circulation to keep a magazine going though.
The newsagent in our town has several different vintage tractor magazines - yes, not just one, several. Even if all the dps and dses of MNers stopped buying them I am sure that would still leave a good deal more readers than your average vintage tractor mag gets and they somehow manage to keep going confused

GeekLove Tue 14-Dec-10 17:46:15

The Co-op in Tile Hill Cov has the Sport wit the other newspapers easily at childs height. Similarly Nuts and Zoo are on the level above childrens's magasizes.

There is also a gadjets/tech mag called Stuff which always has a scantily clad women on the cover - not sure why given the context.

I WILL get round to writing to head office about the Mumsnet campaign with respect to lads mags

sethstarkaddersmum Tue 14-Dec-10 17:46:17

stopped buying lads mags, I should have said blush

LeninExcelsis Tue 14-Dec-10 18:41:45

Good news! Will send you some places, possibly with some pics, if I can bear to take them.

GreatGooglyMoogly Tue 14-Dec-10 19:33:07

Great Campaign!

Could I just point out that in your press release it lists the 3 worst offenders, as per the survey, but doesn't include Tesco who scored 32% (but does include WHSmith at 31%).

whoknowswhatthefutureholds Tue 14-Dec-10 19:42:22

I noticed that greatgoogly.

Is there a very simple letter (for my local newsagents who probably won;'t give two hoots but I definately want to point it out to them)

jonicomelately Tue 14-Dec-10 19:53:36

I think this is a great campaign. Despite what BeenBeta says, I think there will always be a market for this type of thing. The only real solution is for them them to be displayed more discreetly.

stickyj Tue 14-Dec-10 19:59:04

I wanted to ask something but didn't want to cause a fuss. I know that mags/papers etc should be hidden as the ladies in them are usually half dressed and pouting. I just wondered if anyone else has thought that maybe mags with men on (Men's Health for example) should be toned down too. Those guys are naked (and supposedly showing guys how they are meant to be) but they're still nearly naked and is it double standards? Ignore me if I'm rambling, but having looked at my son's mag (he's 17) I just wondered if it portrays an iamge that's maybe unreachable for teens/men?

stickyj Tue 14-Dec-10 20:00:53

Just wanted to add that our local newsagent has those boxes on the mags and they're also on the high shelves. The Sun/Sport however is just on the general newspaper stand and I have mentioned it as my when my son was younger (about 7) he did used to stand and stare.

anastaisia Tue 14-Dec-10 20:55:07
madwomanintheattic Tue 14-Dec-10 22:00:35

how i love the liberals. i did have a small chuckle at rowan's claim that mners can start a fight in an empty room, in the middle of a fabulous barney about statistical significance. grin that lot don't actually care what they are arguing about, really, do they?

<fwiw, i'm more of a qual girl myself. the quant side is apparently full of desperately numerate weirdos who wouldn't recognise causation if it hit them in the face with a damp haddock> hey ho.

not in the uk currently, so can't contribute to the 'where' discussion, but rah rah, anyway. smile

JessinAvalon Tue 14-Dec-10 22:09:36

Great - thanks Mumsnet (and thanks Tabouleh for alerting me to this).

See my post on the feminism thread about the rubbish response I got from Shell last week about their display of The Sport at toddler eye level:

Link to thread about Shell

In my experience, WHSmith and Tesco do not give a monkey's. Smith's told me a couple of years ago that they adhere to their own voluntary guidelines of not displaying lads mags at a height below 1.2m so that children won't be exposed to them.

I went onto the Department of Health website and found an age/height survey and found that the average 6-7 year old is now over 1.2m tall. I sent this information to WHSmith and asked what they defined as a 'child' but they kept answering really vaguely and in the end refused to answer anything in writing and offered to speak to me on the phone instead (weird!). I offered to come and meet them in person as their office isn't far from where I live but they declined that offer too.

Tesco are also rubbish.

The Co-op at least tries to display them on the top shelves but I only know of one Co-op that covers them up.

And credit where it's due to Sainsbury's and Morrisons who listened to their customers and covered them up. I avoid Tesco and WHSmut now and only shop in Sainsbury's. It's not much to ask, is it, for a retailer to move some poorly selling magazines to a top shelf and cover them up! (Although I am bemused as to why Sainsbury's doesn't cover up FHM.)

A few years ago, when WHSmut made the decision to bring back Playboy, its then MD said that the cover of most lads mags are the same as Playboy. Yet they put Playboy on the top shelves, covered up, and the rest at the height of your average 6-7 year old. I asked WHSmut about that too but they declined to answer!

WHSmut brings back Playboy

And this was before the likes of Nuts and Zoo were being published, which pushed the boundaries even further.

Well done MN!

BeenBeta Tue 14-Dec-10 22:28:23

stickyj - I dont think the Mens Health mags are double standards. They are not the same - at least they dont seem so to me. There are Womens Health Magazines too.

anastasia - one of the comments replying to the article that you linked to also makes the valid point that many women's magazines might equally damage girls by by presenting false and airbrushed body images of women but they won't be banned to the top shelf.

I support the campaign but am just trying to be realistic and practical. The comments under the article are an interestng profile of the kind of response this campaign will elicit and MN need to be ready to deal with that.

LeninInExcelsis Tue 14-Dec-10 22:33:12

It's about the sexual objectification and often subjugation of women for me. The covers of The Daily Sport and Nuts just make me seethe. The way women are presented on these is demeaning and humiliating.

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 14-Dec-10 22:42:22

Well done to 'Anna' on the LibCon piece - putting the points that I couldn't with my professional hat on!

JessinAvalon Tue 14-Dec-10 22:46:16

Well done to you both! I can't be bothered to argue on Liberal Conspiracy, I'm afraid. They are all so busy trying to prove how goddamn liberal they all are that they don't ever think about the wider impact of these issues.

tabouleh Tue 14-Dec-10 23:29:27

Well done MN! It's great that you've got these links with retailers now through LGBG.

I am thinking that now is also a good time for us to be contacting these retailers with our own specific complaints so it will be on their agendas from customer complaints also.

'Anna' (whomever you are) as you have a LibCon login perhaps you could post and mention the sexualisation of young people review for those wanting info on some research.

This part of the report is relevant:

The evidence set out in this document suggests that there is broad agreement among researchers and experts in health and welfare that sexualising children prematurely places them at risk of a variety of harms, ranging from body image disturbances to being victims of abuse and sexual violence.

Sexualisation devalues women and girls sending out a disturbing message that they are always sexually available. It creates false expectations for girls trying to live up to unrealistic ‘ideals’, and for boys in terms of how they think a girl should be treated. It increases selfobjectification and limits the aspirations and choices that girls feel are open to them. Sexualisation lowers important barriers to child sexual abuse, and undermines healthy relationships, increasing the likelihood of violence against women and girls.

There is both empirical research and clinical evidence that premature sexualisation harms children. There is, however, a clear need for further empirical evidence in the form of a large-scale longitudinal study to look in detail at how living in a sexualised culture affects both boys and girls as they grow and develop.

There are several reasons why such evidence does not yet exist. First, large longitudinal studies require careful development and significant funding:in Australia,the federal government spent two years debating whether the National Health and Medical Research Council should fund such a study. Second, such a study would have to overcome considerable ethical obstacles with regard to breaches of family privacy and the risk of further sexualising child participants.

Finally, many of the mechanisms through which sexualisation is occurring are relatively new. Only recently have we begun to see psychologists and other social scientists making a concerted effort to address the issue.

So, we need more research. Nevertheless, we should acknowledge that the research and evidence from child experts and clinicians gathered in this report points clearly to the fact that sexualisation is having a negative impact on young people’s physical and mental health, and helping to normalise abusive behaviour towards women and children.

How many of those LibCon posters are A)male and B)have DCs. Anyone know?

LeninInExcelsis Tue 14-Dec-10 23:40:12

Worth mention the hyper-masculinity ideals for boys she talks about too.

anastaisia Wed 15-Dec-10 00:54:11

You don't need a log in; just enter a name and email.

I'm thinking of giving up. I shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. I will go on from the computer in the morning and post the link for the report unless someone else gets there first

clippityclop Wed 15-Dec-10 02:53:40

Well done! What about pound shops displaying those grotty lighters etc adorned with topless pics?

DingDongMaryBSonHigh Wed 15-Dec-10 08:20:50

Our local One Stop has the hardcore stuff covered up, but there's still all the lads mags at the eye level of my primary school DD. Its only been like this since they refurbed the store and moved the magazines. Before they used to be much higher.

Was thinking of writing and complaining. Any hints and tips for me?

NormaStanleyFletcher Wed 15-Dec-10 09:38:51

I have posted on that Liberal Conspiracy thread as well Rowan.

DwayneDibbley Wed 15-Dec-10 10:27:34

Message withdrawn

FrustratedHippy Wed 15-Dec-10 11:15:10

Brilliant mumsnet . I did brazen it out with my local whsmith years ago but they looked at me as if I had just sworn allegiance to the god Zord . Of course they did nothing . Will go take a look today and see if I dare speak up!

Eleison Wed 15-Dec-10 11:15:53

Is there any need to convince the LibCon community of anything? Does it matter what they think? A lot of the comments there seem to involve a kind of classical social liberalism that asserts a simple freedom of self-expression, one that works in the pretendy world of Adam Smith's invisible hand, but which is of limited relevance when it comes to the regulation of a commercially generated environment like a retail space, where there are dynamics that sever any simple relationship between individual choices and social outcomes.

Is that what LibCon is? Or is it a leftist site? Who's heard of it anyway, outside of the little tin box of the blogosphere?

anastaisia Wed 15-Dec-10 12:07:28

They're left wing Eleison.

No need to convince them, but I do think with these things it's important to have the discussions. Especially when you think about the people who don't write anything but do read the comments and may not have made up their minds what they think.

Shell petrol station London N8 (nuts/ star etc all at children's eye level in forecourt)

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 15-Dec-10 18:05:17

I think I'm in love with JP on the LibCon thread...

PosieParkhersleigh Wed 15-Dec-10 18:55:05

Co-op (just bought out Somerfield) has voted, board decision for the South West, to put all mags up high and covered. My neighbour, a sixty year old man, said he'd just won a 'one man campaign' writing tirelessly to get them moved. He said it came to a head when Nuts mag was next to little girl's birthday cards.

So now if you go into a Co-op or Somerfield you can ask the manager to move and cover, I think. He said he'll send me his emailed response and I can post it here.

LeninInExcelsis Wed 15-Dec-10 19:01:31

I don't understand why the experiences and feelings of women are dismissed as irrelevant on the lib con site. If someone was quite insistent on explaining that they found some of the poses on The Daily Sport humiliating and demeaning you'd think they'd stop and think about that for a moment. It's not their sex depicted in such a subjugated way.

tabouleh Wed 15-Dec-10 20:23:55

Posie that's great news - I am convinced that it is by targeting the boards of companies that we'll get these things changed.

So going to corporate governance route and asking difficult questions of boards as to their policies on various matters.

Then it will be irrelevant what the liberals think. grin grin

This is also why it is important to push for more women on boards as I am convinced that will see a step change on some of these issues.

<<looking forward to the report into female directors due early next year>>

Lenin I am pretty certain most on that libcon thread are men and they will be starting from a different point on this - possibly many have no DCs/if they do they don't take DCs to shops so much/they don't have issues personally with the objectification of women.

I suspect most of those libcons were anti-smoking ban - I'd be interesting to know how high they set the bar for "evidence"?!

Ditto compulsorary use of the seatbelt etc.

NetworkGuy Wed 15-Dec-10 21:18:42

Co-Op owned Somerfield in Gwersyllt has a magazine area close to the entrance, only 3 or 4 levels such that adults can see over the top of the shelving (ie not high at all).

I gave some verbal feedback to one of the staff as to why I found it laughable that the Co-Op with its 'ethical' stance, could have the mags at that level and she accepted the comment. I pointed out the practice of the Asda in town centre where they have not only put them on the uppermost shelves, but have a cardboard box surround with only the magazine titles visible.

I'm male and not offended, but feel there are 'limits' and Asda at least made the effort!

NetworkGuy Wed 15-Dec-10 21:18:50

As for men's health mags with exposed chests and legs, happy to go with what others think - however, if anyone has enjoyed watched wrestling or boxing on TV (eg in Olympics) I suspect that wearing much more than shorts looks a bit odd - though perhaps it should be seasonal - so fine in the summer months, dumb in the winter

NetworkGuy Wed 15-Dec-10 21:20:17

Good news Posie - had not seen your post (page 2) when I typed mine.

NetworkGuy Wed 15-Dec-10 21:24:56

However, it would be best for Co-Op Head Office to make it a decree for all shops to cover up, not for there to be any individual request needed! Perhaps a word from MNHQ might cause that.

However, it would be great to see a headline on web sites "Mumsnet says: Boycott <name> because they won't respect children's innocence"

If WH Smith and Tesco won't change, they may not like a bunch of placard holding marchers walking past the fronts of their shops (nationwide) every 15 minutes asking customers to boycott them ! Just imagine it, 5 days before Christmas!!

PaisleyLeaf Wed 15-Dec-10 21:49:13

That's interesting about Co-Op. I'll have another look at the one by me as they had the mags pretty low on clear display. Mind you ALL their shelves are low - the highest only coming to my shoulder unless it's alcohol or fridge food around the sides of the shop.

JessinAvalon Wed 15-Dec-10 23:19:24

Um.....wondering whether to out myself. I am JP on the LibCon thread! I don't dare look at the responses to my latest post. I do lose my patience with that lot. I don't know if they think they are being cool by saying that everything should be left as it is, no rules man. Yeah, cos that's sticking it to the capitalist system! They seem to completely ignore the role that big companies play in people's choices. All they are doing is defending capitalism. Very anarchic!

The only people that benefit by having porn mags on view is the retailer (although in the long run they will probably lose custom from offended customers) and the porn industry. Way to go for sticking up for people's freedom!

Unfortunately the chair of the licensing committee in Bristol is very much of that mindset. It is frustrating when trying to have a conversation with him about the sex industry.

It's so great to hear that others are making the effort to complain, esp the chap who had carried out a one man campaign. I have contacted the Co-op, Tesco and WHSmut and they all make you feel as if you are a lone voice.

Network Guy-have you heard about Object's feminist Fridays? They have targeted Tesco every month for a while now, doing the conga in store, chanting, putting paper bags over the lads mags. I organised an email campaign to the Coop last year, got hundreds of people to complain in the same week. They just ignored us!

Sainsbury's actually had the good sense to listen to customers and did something about it which is why I only shop in there now.

JessinAvalon Wed 15-Dec-10 23:31:49

So I read the responses on LibCon and all I saw was 'we'll end up like Iran', 'thin end of the wedge', 'just because SOME people are offended', 'what next, covering up women in bikinis'.....


Is moving some soft porn mags to the top shelf and putting a cover on them really so much to ask? Really? I know the poor lads buying them will need to save the strength in their wrist for after they've bought the magazine but surely reaching up a few shelves and OMG! pulling the magazine out from a behind a cover (shock, horror!) isn't going to be too taxing for the poor things?

JessinAvalon Wed 15-Dec-10 23:47:05

I couldn't help it. I have posted the following on LibCon:

On reflection, I’ve changed my mind. It doesn’t matter if a large section of the population is offended by these mags or that children are exposed to degrading sexual images of women. No, I have realised that we should be thinking of the poor men here. They’ll need the strength in their wrist for after they buy the mag and we shouldn’t expect them to have to reach up a few shelves and pull a mag out from behind a cover. They need to save their strength! I think it’s very thoughtful of retailers to consider the lower arms of the boys who need to buy these mags. God forbid they’d pull a muscle in having to reach behind the cover.

Well done WHSmith et al! They understand what it’s like to be a teenage boy! Sod all those who don’t want to see these mags. They can go elsewhere for their newspapers, milk, petrol!

Someone should start a “Save the wrist” campaign in response to the MN campaign. Obviously we’d need good empirical evidence on wrist harm but I’m sure that Nuts/Zoo could help us out on that front.

NormaStanleyFletcher Thu 16-Dec-10 00:17:31

Jess - I like it smile

walkinginaWUKTERwonderland Thu 16-Dec-10 00:25:37

grin Jess

NetworkGuy Thu 16-Dec-10 01:11:06

Jess - had heard of Object, but not their Friday actions. While Object has every right to do as it wishes (within the law), I suspect part of the problem is that the level of action, and the intention they have is far stronger, so Tesco can (legitimately in some eyes) decide not to be bullied into the cessation (I assume that's the intent/request) of stocking such magazines.

Fortunately, MN's idea is far more "gentle" insofar as not asking for a ban at all, so Tesco cannot choose to ignore it so easily, and I think they will react when they know that Mumsnet is taking action on this.

To be named as the only chain of supermarkets which chooses to ignore the feelings of customers in relation to children seeing low quality smut dressed up as 'lads' mags may make them think again.

Perhaps some of the staff working at Tesco and participating on MN can gently point to the fact they could lose market share which would be something the City would notice...

PosieParkhersleigh Thu 16-Dec-10 07:44:18

I genuinely feel that now more than ever Feminism is massively needed, let's hope our newly active students start their own pathway into feminism. Perhaps Feminists networks should be out recruiting on protest days?

JessinAvalon Thu 16-Dec-10 08:49:35

I think Object are pretty successful in recruiting on their protests. On the first one they ever did, an armed police van was called who were very bemused to turn up and find some women with paper bags! They even signed the petition when they got off their shift.

Network Guy-Object and the Front Page Campaign have been calling for an age restriction on these magazines. I don't think they are calling for a ban. Their action with Tesco highlights the fact that Tesco banned people wearing pyjamas in store because some customers found it offensive yet they won't do anything about their prominent displays of lads mags.

My local Tesco Express has them on sale low down (no shelf in there is very high) next to birthday cards for children. I won't go in there until they change their display policy. I have had ongoing correspondence with WHSmut, Tesco and now Shell. The typical response is polite but dismissive and then they ignore any further requests for clarification, eg me asking Smut's where they get their 1.2m height requirement from. My offers to meet with them were ignored too.

NetworkGuy Thu 16-Dec-10 09:56:38

Thanks for clarification, Jess. I remember seeing a video where items were turned around on shelves (though sometimes there are ads on the back which might be worse than the front covers!) and there may be charges applicable for some of the things they do (though armed police is a bit too silly for words - wonder what the store said on their 999 call ?)

I suspect that while individual complaints are treated as a diversion, bit of fun, or inconsequential, it is partly because Tesco has as much market share as Asda and Sainsbury together that they feel they are getting it right and may (stupidly) ignore public opinion.

Swedes1 Thu 16-Dec-10 10:57:02

Good campaign.

My gut instinct is you need to start with Page 3; its existence in our best selling National newspaper paves the way for pernicious acceptance of something that is actually deeply offensive. Why is it acceptable in this day and age to have to sit next to someone on a train who is staring at a pair of breasts in the Sun? I would ask the coalition why they think this is acceptable. Is this the sort of Big Society they had in mind? If the coalition won't take it up as a cause, try Boris, he's not scared of rocking the Murdoch boat.

And if our political leaders won't do it, why not ask First Capital Connect and Transport for London etc. Perhaps the time has come for the sexist equivalent of the 'quiet carriage'? A women freindly coach? (They would get much better advertising so it's a winner if you think about it.)

Swedes1 Thu 16-Dec-10 11:03:37

Oh yes and well done to Morrisons. Is there any way MN could award Morrisons with a certificate of family friendliness for this thoughtfulness towards their customers? It would make a very good press release, with photos.

NetworkGuy Thu 16-Dec-10 11:07:56

While a Page 3 campaign might seem worthwhile (never bought the Star or Sport so don't know if that would be translated to a "stop all the pages" campaign (!)) it guarantees a higher level of rebelliousness and argument - trying to ban something gets put into the authoritarian "blocking freedoms" bag, even if (on the opposite side) one could argue your freedom to be able to be in public without having yourself or your children offended by such images as a result of someone opening their news paper.

However, I am not sure whether there is any 'right' for someone to be stopped from opening a 'bums and boobs' (mens) magazine either.

Public decency suggests it would be bad, but has it ever been tested in a court, that someone caused affray (or whatever the charge) for opening a copy of Mayfair, say (thinking back to what was popular some 20 years ago among my collegues [female and male] at work, oh and they did read Mayfair at work by the way, at least on late shift), on a bus or train?

Swedes1 Thu 16-Dec-10 11:15:33

I think you have to go about making change by being astutely commercial: advertisers will run a mile if you start mentioning social studies and psychologists' reports.

Swedes1 Thu 16-Dec-10 11:17:20

I am absolutely against banning pretty much everything. Except perhaps pony tails on men over 40. grin

Page 3 is very welcome to its miserable existence, I just demand not to sit next to it on public transport.

Eleison Thu 16-Dec-10 11:20:22

I like the idea of a No Wankmag carriage on trains. I've also been sold on the idea of women-only carriages since a particularly outrageous example of frottage on a train in Mexico City when I unwisely rejected the option of the women's carriage.grin

I think I may have said this before on an MN thread, but seeing an image of a woman in a humiliating sexual pose on a shelf feels exactly like being flashed at. It is flashing. It is men confronting you, wherever you are, whatever you are doing, with the identification of your body with their arousal; they don't even need their penis to do that. They are so self-assured that they can use your very own body, colonised by their eyes.

NetworkGuy Thu 16-Dec-10 12:11:42

Eleison - No idea what the models for magazines get (posing with gadgets and cars, for example) but there's surely quite a number of 'publicity' related jobs which you'd also need to stop, because, let's face it, at lots of exhibition halls up and down the country, [young] women are paid to hand out leaflets, sell exhibition guides, and/or pose with fast cars etc.

How many adverts seen on the posters up and down the London tube escalators include some model in skimpy clothing, and how many TV ads suggest some degree of sexual "success" from using certain products (thought that was banned so I suspect it depends on the type of claims being made).

It's one thing to try to stop Page 3, but how much further would you need to go - would you wipe out all promotions jobs too? It's been the same for many hundreds of years that sexy sells, and while a massive proportion of women would not take those jobs, just as they would not consider lap dancing or working in a strip club, there will always be plenty of women in advertising and I suspect in lots of other jobs where 'presentation' may be exploited to get a deal/make a sale, whether it is a sales representative for some firm, the receptionist one first meets, or the staff on aircraft, cruise ships, and so on.

Yes, it is wrong, and I don't know whether such jobs are less likely in Norway (where there is legislation in place to make company boards more equal and presumably this has consequences all the way down in businesses and thus alters advertising policy, and so on), but it is a radical change that may take another 20, 50, 100 years.

(NB I am not trying to associate work on aircraft or cruise ships, let alone promotions staff at exhibitions, with stripping or lap dancing, but at the same time I respect the right of women who work in lap dance or strip clubs to do as they choose, as long as it was done with a free will.)

NetworkGuy Thu 16-Dec-10 12:13:46

NB I have not been in London for several years do have no idea what ads are displayed these days, but from 30 years ago, I always noticed a tendency to go a "little bit further" on tube ads than out of the capital.

BeenBeta Thu 16-Dec-10 13:18:05

Thinking practically again about how to move this forward if retailers refuse to do anything address this issue.

Does anyone know what legislation or regulation there is to force retailers to put explicit magazines on the top shelf or is it just a voluntary code?

Just wondering if that legislation/regulation/ or voluntary code could be extended as part of the current Govt investigation into the sexualisation of children.

JessinAvalon Thu 16-Dec-10 14:07:09

Just a quickie- code for displaying mags is voluntary at the moment.

There has been a campaign to ban porn on London transport. Someone at Object made up a brilliant fake newspaper cover called The Stun as part of the campaign featuring men instead of women. I'll post a link later.

There is a campaign to ban page 3 called Turn Your Back on Page 3 (check out the FB group). Claire Short did try years ago and was derided but I agree-it needs to be consigned to history. It was page 3's 40th anniversary a month or so ago and that renewed calls for it to go. A petition went around about it. It was discussed on Woman's Hour but they always try to be balanced so we got the whole 'empowerment' argument too.

(Not helped by the BBC breakfast news interviewing Cher tomorrow morning about her new film, Burlesque, which has been discussed elsewhere on MN.)

The Front Page Campaign (see google) along with Object are campaigning for legislation on age restrictions and displays. There was a number 10 petition going round a few months ago.

NetworkGuy Thu 16-Dec-10 14:11:15

It's a voluntary code that was welcomed in the spring of 2006 by Diane Abbot, MP, though she warned that it would only work if it was adhered to.

When another MP in 2008 put forward a bill under the 10 minute rule to have age certification, it never went on to become law, and the Periodical Publishers Association claimed that a voluntary code is "far more effective and flexible than any statutory regulation". -demand-lads-mags-be-given-18-certificate.html - sizeable extract follows:

6:26PM GMT 07 Dec 2008

The Top Shelf report, commissioned by Labour MP Claire Curtis-Thomas, will be published next week.

It is expected to recommend that popular men's magazines and newspapers such as the
Daily Sport be given age-appropriate '16' and '18' certificates.

The report will also find that newsagents across the UK are flouting current guidelines and displaying such 'lads mags' at the eye-level of children aged six to 15.

The display of such magazines is currently governed by a voluntary code of practice drawn up by the Periodical Publishers Associations (PPA) and the Home Office, which recommends that retailers display them well above children's eye level and away from children's titles or comics.


Clearly the voluntary code is being flouted, and I don't know why it even needs to be flexible.

Maybe there should be a further survey of say 10,000 sixth formers so the arguments over statistical sampling can go away...

Maybe MNHQ can get a copy of the original report and see what they survey asked... and how about contacting women MPs across all parties, to see if they would support such a bill... Of course they would know that to decline such an offer could mean they would lose their credibility!

sethstarofbethlehemsmum Thu 16-Dec-10 14:12:12

I think the idea of campaigning for 'No wankmag' carriages on trains is quite brilliant.

NetworkGuy Thu 16-Dec-10 14:22:42

"There was a number 10 petition going round a few months ago."

I had a number 10 petition in last year, but once it got to the election being announced, all petitions were put on hold.

Currently the petitions part of the Number 10 site says

"November 2010 - The overall future of all HMG digital comms and engagement is bound into the Martha Lane Fox review, which will be announced imminently. The future of e-petitions will be part of that review."

So whether there will be E-Petitions depends on Martha Lane Fox - has she ever been in to Mumsnet HQ for a web chat ?

BeenBeta Thu 16-Dec-10 14:30:18

Jess - thanks for that. I had a dim distant recollection there was some kind of code.

After Googling I found this summary in a document published by Object on the National Federation of Newsagent code of practice.

"Adult Top-Shelf Titles

With the expressed permission of the publishers of Adult Top Shelf titles, the NFRN publishes and recommends the following Code of Practice:-

• That Adult Titles should be displayed on the Top Shelf only and out of the reach of children
• That Adult Titles should not be sold to any person under the age of 18 years.
• That Adult Titles should only be acquired from bona fide trade channels (on the basis that these will have been vetted by the suppliers' lawyers for compliance with legislation)
• That care and sensitivity be exercised over the display of Adult Titles with explicit front covers."

I know Object has also made recommendations on displaying Lads Mags in the same document but I just wonder if the simplest solution is to extend that existing code to 'Lads Mags' and other other titles with explict pictures in. I know the last Govt declined to extend this code into legislation but it seems to me that it could be extended.

I suspect that defining exactly what constitutes a 'top shelf title' might be open to legal challenge by publishers if it hit their sales.

Swedes1 Thu 16-Dec-10 14:37:09

<<BIg white letters on black screen>>

"Are you degrading the women in your life by reading chug mags or the Sun?"

<<Fade to man reading The Sun on the train sitting next to a woman and a young teen girl.>>

<overlay big white letters>>

"Don't be a wanker"

NetworkGuy Thu 16-Dec-10 14:47:29

"chug mags" would get a confused from me.

Call them "lads mags" (if that's what you mean) as I think everyone would include Nuts, Loaded, Front and Zoo...

BeenBeta Thu 16-Dec-10 15:18:14

NetworkGuy - xposted with you @ 14:11:15.

I agree with your suggestion of writing to women MPs. Dont see why male MPs shouldn't get a letter too.

NetworkGuy Thu 16-Dec-10 15:35:13

Yes, you're right, BB - though I suspect more women MPs would take it seriously and male MPs would shrug their shoulders and think "economy / {whatever} is much more important".

Perhaps Rowan / team at MNHQ could come up with a briefly worded piece as a reason for this campaign to "have legs" and submit it via the Suggest a Campaign page on 38Degrees.

38Degrees makes it easy to track a campaign (number of signees) as well as providing an easy way to communicate with your MP, giving a sample mail message that the submitter can edit to make appropriate to their personal views (and get away from the MP being deluged with hundreds of identical mail messages).

If the MP sees different messages on the same theme they know people have their own thoughts and aren't just having a "me too" knee-jerk reaction.

JessinAvalon Thu 16-Dec-10 19:17:40

The Stun and link to No more porn on London Transport

You might have to increase the size of the image to get the full brilliant effect of the spoof paper.

AmyK1 Thu 16-Dec-10 20:17:16

There is a petition on this started by a Plymouth mum of two, and you can sign it online.

There is also a website where you can report a shop.

rpt53 Thu 16-Dec-10 22:36:14

Thank you so much for this campaign - the co-op in rarnborough hamppshire puts the star and other newspapers with virtually naked girls on the front on the bottom shelf. A couple of times I have asked them about it bit they are not bothered - and the co-op claims to have an ethical edge!

Also garages, especially BP and Total in Farnborough have lewd pictures on thefront of newspapers at child's eye view. Highly offensive and damaging to the self esteem of my girls and their brother's perspective on women.

The co op in West Kensington has them placed very low down.

PosieParkhersleigh Fri 17-Dec-10 09:56:33

Talk to the Co-op, their board have agreed that they do not want lads mags on display for children. In fact I went ot mine last night and couldn't see any mags, it took about 90 seconds and they were tucked behind mens health.

David51 Fri 17-Dec-10 11:13:25

Don't these magazines get most of their revenue from advertising? In which case might it be worth contacting the companies whose products they advertise?

The decision about where to place the ad would have been taken by an advertising agency who aren't going to care about these issues. But if you complain to the actual company they might start to see it as a "reputational risk" (especially if the campaign has been getting a lot of publicity)

Stopfighting Sat 18-Dec-10 00:43:29

Thanks Mumsnet!! I really hope this is a huge success.

What do you think about the idea of involving schools? Imagine the impact of heads(plus parents) writing to all local shops who display this material...(excited emoticon)

GooseFatRoasties Tue 11-Jan-11 13:31:50

I support this campaign. There is no need to have these magazines on display.

Vanillacandle Sun 16-Jan-11 18:38:44

Could we include "rude" greetings cards in this campaign? In our local Post Office, there is a stand of those crude "humorous" cards right where you have to queue for the counter. Although I am sure people would argue that they are harmless fun for adults, they need to recognise that despite the news reports on failures in Literacy, there are still some children who can read at a young age, and the "f" word is fairly easy for them to sound out phonetically (as is boobs, sex, etc etc).

Needless to say, I wholeheartedly support the campaign.

NetworkGuy Mon 17-Jan-11 02:46:46

Aha - glad to see some more posts, lest it fall into the doldrums!

Incidentally, saw Claire Perry MP on about trying to get customers of ISPs to "opt in" to being able to see 'adult' web sites on Panorama. Idea is unworkable for technical reasons (how do you monitor content of millions of websites, billions of pages), but someone has suggested she be on a webchat on this thread.

The Panorama programme was "Too Much Too Young" and definitely worth watching if you have teens (or younger) and is on BBC iPlayer (but was 20:30 on Monday 10.01.11 so won't be on there much after 18:00 tonight, I assume)

yoyozo Thu 03-Feb-11 21:50:57

Complained in Co-op local today about GQ magazine promo at my 3 year old height with fully naked woman on the front. Soooo angry! They said they don't choose the scheme and have also raised their concerns about it. Who designs these schemes? This is a no-brainer surely?

yoyozo Thu 03-Feb-11 22:12:32

OK so I have signed the "FRONT PAGE" campaign about this issue at px
but i just won't feel any better until this ridiculous kind of advertising is changed. It's easy to add to face book etc so I recommend it highly.

NetworkGuy Sun 06-Feb-11 21:57:54

This campaign looks like it has gone into limbo.

Wonder if there is anyone at MNHQ who can say what action is being taken behind the scenes (or if not giving any details, at least confirm something is being done), please !

NetworkGuy Sun 06-Feb-11 22:08:55

From my post of 16.12.2010

Perhaps Rowan / team at MNHQ could come up with a briefly worded piece as a reason for this campaign to "have legs" and submit it via the Suggest a Campaign page on 38Degrees.

38Degrees has an e-mail submission facility so a user can identify their location (and thus their MP) and then get a pre-written e-mail (which they are then encouraged to edit, so they can add examples from their own locality), and then submit.

It means that the general sentiment will be the same from potentially thousands of people but tailored to specifics from their lives.

Clearly there's no point reinventing the wheel, so the first step would be to get 38Degrees to adopt this as a campaign.

Once that's done, it would surely just need a mention in the MN newsletter and in some topic areas, to make MN users aware of this e-mail facility, so they could put forward to their MPs the widely held views that there's no need for these mags to be made as visible as they are.

"Modesty covers" (sealed plastic bags with slogans overing photos) on all of them would mean a standard method of dealing with them could be requested, so whatever shelf they ended up on, they should cause less offence.

It does not go to the level of banning them completely which some may argue for, but surely it would be a 'reasonable' first step, and would mean any obnoxious newsagent would have the bags already in place so despite placing them on unsuitable shelves, would have 'lost that battle' with parents who dislike the smut being visible.

NetworkGuy Mon 07-Feb-11 22:14:40

Further on the "modesty covers" for lads mags, having seen this post by
Baileysismyfriend on 28-Jul-10

"I was in a petrol station the other day and all it sold was dirty magazines - well apart from petrol obviously - they were all at child's eye level too, awful."

it struck me that if the the Government wanted to, it could force all magazines of the "boobs and bums" variety (whether "lads' mags" or stronger) to have plastic covers over them, leaving only the names of the magazine and barcode/price portion visible.

That would in effect class the "lads' mags" in with porn, and make the shelves of newsagents, petrol station shops and so on a mass of grey plastic covers. There would be no 'dirty old men' (or young, for that matter) loitering to view the mags like they are in a library, there'd be little or nothing on show to offend Baileysismyfriend or for her daughter to see.

I know it is short of a complete ban, which would be in the minds of many, but it would take away much of the immediate offense that is felt right now, because of such mags being visible. Wonder if they could force the same on the Daily Sport and the Star, too ?

Thoughts, anyone ?

David51 Fri 11-Feb-11 14:43:39

The 'sign our petition' page is very hard to read (white text on light grey??)

Here's a link to the homepage instead:

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 14-Feb-11 10:26:58

Hi all,

Just to confirm, the wheels are in motion on this one and we expect to be announcing something by the end of this week.


NetworkGuy Fri 18-Feb-11 15:46:18

Thanks from the update Rowan. Cannot wait to see what happens.

Will you give any thought towards getting all the mags and the trash 'news' papers to be forced to have 'modesty covers' so they are barred from showing bare flesh (some currently have blobs to prevent the display of nipples, but let's face it, there are lots lots of bottoms and boobs being shown, at newsagents with the soft porn end such as Razzle and so on, and one complaint is about inappropriate shelving where these are not 'top shelf' because some shops have so many different mags, for gay and straight men, predominantly).

While some of the trash-papers take delight in 'up skirt' views where there is little left to the imagination if a leggy young woman bends at the hip to check the strap on a shoe, for example, these are perhaps more 'sensationalist' than the lads mags which might have some bareness inside and slightly less provocative covers these days than those 'papers'.

NetworkGuy Wed 23-Feb-11 09:34:28

So where was the announcement, please?

I've looked at a few of the threads until I am getting splinters from scratching my head as I see nothing new is being posted. Not much seems to have changed... or am I missing something "obvious" perhaps?

hymie Wed 23-Feb-11 13:45:39

W H Smith have decided to abandon the top shelf and put Lads Mags back on normal display.

Trying to justify it now of BBC Radio 5live

David51 Wed 23-Feb-11 13:49:50
RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 23-Feb-11 18:36:24

Apologies NetworkGuy and others - meant to post this yesterday but had a half-term fail.

Let us know what you think!

David51 Fri 25-Feb-11 10:10:15

If you're interested the feminsit group OBJECT are doing a 'Feminist Friday' protest today against WH Smith, details on the UK Feminista website: vent/315-london-feminist-friday.html

(this is a link to the London event but there nmay be others around the country - check with the organiser)

LeninGrad Fri 25-Feb-11 21:27:05

I went into my local Tesco today which I had stopped using because of these mags being on display and they had been moved, hurrah! So much better.

NetworkGuy Fri 25-Feb-11 21:36:30

Where I am, Asda has had them on top shelf with covering so only the titles can be seen if you are tall enough... Have not looked in Tesco recently.

LindsayWagner Mon 28-Feb-11 10:45:37

I'd like to know how long it's going to take Tesco's to 'roll out' the new policy. My local Tesco Express has them displayed at 1.2 m just like WhSmith - perfectly level with my 8 year old's eyeline.

Am now in a war of attrition with the (very sweet) security guard who watches me turn them all so the front cover is facing inwards, waits a polite 15 mins, then patiently turns them back again. Gah.

NetworkGuy Mon 28-Feb-11 13:24:32

Might be worth naming the branch of Tesco Express and seeing if MNHQ can compile a list and make contact with the stores.

WHSmith has no plans to comply at present, so no joy (yet) with them, unfortunately ?

NetworkGuy Mon 28-Feb-11 13:35:21

sorry, ? should have been !

I took a listen to Gabby on FiveLive last Wednesday and must say 'Well done' to Katie who was on, clearly stating the MN has no wish to completely ban mags, but have them presented in a more acceptable way (of course they will never be acceptable to the campaigning org mentioned the other day (sorry, not on screen to be sure of name).

One report said the association of newsagents (or similar) was concerned about the cost of having plastic covers on to obscure covers. I think that MN ought to push this with all the female MPs (all parties) to get it forced into legislation (or ask Ed Vaizey to take it to whichever part of government is appropriate).

If the magazines and Daily Sport, Daily Star had to cover up their front covers if they include partly clad people, they will have to absorb the cost and/or pass it on in the retail price, to the buyers. Seems fair. Does not move them off shelves but hides images from children and may cost a bit more to boot!!

Having the covers on would then no longer be an issue for newsagents (insofar as it costing them to put covers on - indeed they take 30% or so of cost price so if it goes up, they get a few pence more!)

It would mean that however they were displayed (short of newsagent ripping covers off, and not permissable if it became law!) then the grubby garage shop and anywhere else with low shelves could put the trashy mags where they wanted and there'd be nothing to see apart from the title, month, and cost.

NetworkGuy Mon 28-Feb-11 13:37:43

Sealed bags would also mean no 'browsing' by people (OK, men!) with no wish to buy, but just flicking through the pictures.

vicstax Wed 02-Mar-11 01:11:25

Im not a mother myself but as a young women i do not only believe that this sexualises children but young women too, as i student i receive a lot of unwanted attention from men my age and older than me. I have noticed in Sainsburys Fallowfield in Manchester they fully display their 'lads mags' as well as Tesco Fallowfield. I also often see them in many big stores across the country, i don't believe that they are doing what they are saying. I also believe that pornography on the internet should not be accessible, especially to children! It is a fact that on average boys start watching porn from the ages of 11 and above! soft porn and pornography is destructing our society and we must do something about it!

margieF Thu 03-Mar-11 12:26:46

Hi Im new to mumsnet and came on as a result of the news that mumsnet have got some retailers to agree to stock lads mags out of sight of children. This is such great news as I have been campaigning about this in my local area for years.To give credit to my local Tesco - which is a huge Tesco Extra -they changed their whole layout about 9 months ago after I spoke to the manager. (I had complained at least 8 times previously to supervisors - who just stared at me blankly and did nothing).My local garage refuse to put lads mags out of sight of children although they have put a sticker over the Daily Sport bin.As a result of writing to my MP on the issue he made me aware of a survey carried out by the Govt on the Mothers union site which is looking at sexualisation of children by the media. I have completed the survey as I think the more pressure that is put on the govt the better. Although a code of conduct and agreement from retailers is great, until some laws are put in place, retailers can tell anyone that complains, that they can display these magazines where they wish. This is what my local garage keep telling me and unfortunately they are right. I thought Networkguy made a good point about getting the 38 degrees organisation (who were recently successful with stopping the sell off of forests)involved in this campaign. So many women/mothers feel strongly about this issue - eg thefrontpagecampaign, object organisation etc. I can't believe that enough signatures could not be collected to mobilise the govt into action. In the meantime I think the more people that complain and speak out at their local shops - the better.

sophis Thu 03-Mar-11 17:27:51

Hi, I'm new here but i have been banging on about this subject for years as it has personally affected me quite alot.
I have also written to david cameron about it recently and recieved two confirmation letters back from government and am now awaiting his personal reply, but i set up a facebook group about protecting children from inappropriate material and bringing back the watershed two years ago and it has other ideas on it about how to protect children and what could be changed in society, so anyone interested please join, i am regually posting links about this subject on the group as the subject is broader than lad mags displays, but that was a major one for me that i really felt needed changing as well so well done mumsnet, that was actually one of my top priorities. the big one is bringing back the 9pm watershed as it seems to be failing children currently!

if you feel this is inappropriate as its promoting a group then i understand if it's deleted but it really is quite relevent and may soon be getting media coverage. I would appreciate the support and have been interlinking it with mumsnet. thanks. claire king.!/group.php?gid=127951171932

sophis Thu 03-Mar-11 17:29:08

incase the link isnt working my facebook group is called

Bring back the watershed! 9pm-protect children from inappropriate material.

under groups. it is extremely relevent

sophis Thu 03-Mar-11 17:37:33

please join

Bring back the watershed! 9pm-protect children from inappropriate material.

under groups on facebook. It is extremely relevent to this subject as a whole-and has other idea's I have sent to governement about protecting children from harmful content, and I'm interlinking it with mumsnet.

I would like to work together with mumsnet on this, thanks.

claire king.

sophis Thu 03-Mar-11 17:42:22

Ideas I sent to government-

backing David Cameron's campaigns to protect children from premature sexualisation link-

• I agree with the banning of sexualized children’s clothing-padded bra's and other inappropriate merchandise e.g. playboy pencil cases etc.

• Move lads mags up to the top shelf again in newsagents, the shop owners could just select their favourites if there’s not enough room, they shouldn’t be as low that children can easily see them or even pick them up!

• Stick to the 9pm watershed carefully on tv and even radio.

• remove porn and music channels from cable/freeview/sky, with an opt in scheme instead.

• Reduce sexualized advertising before the 9pm watershed

• Cleaner billboards with less sexualized images on them, just keep them in magazines for adults and on tv past 9pm or wherever appropriate.

• Age limits on some magazines for girls so that they read the appropriate content for their age and the same for lads mags, they should be I.d’d at the counter, you get I.d’d for knives, alcohol, cigarettes and dvd’s etc but there’s no strict rules for porn, including soft porn like zoo and nuts, or the sun newspaper.

• Make software more available so it’s easier for parents to control viewing content on internet and tv

• There is however the problem of controlling the downloading of music on the internet or videos from utube, perhaps on the back of an I.d card/learners/drivers license/passport/birth certificate etc they’d have to select the form of I.d and type in a code, even if it were a once they’ve done it once for a site they don’t need to again or something and it’s up to the people around them if they want to cheat this system-could also use a third party to check age like virgin mobile.

• No porn in public- an extension of the usual no porn at work rule, e.g. not viewing rude magazines on public transport and leaving material around etc

•Stricter rules on nudist beaches- I think better sign posting and someone patrolling the cut off line to prevent children wandering into them, like I once did!


margieF Thu 03-Mar-11 18:18:22

Claire - Have you looked at the thefrontpagecampaign website as they are also fighting the same issues - it is mentioned earlier in this thread. They also want to work with mumsnet to try to get laws in place - particularly on the lads mags issues. My feelings are that there are lots of separate organisations working in isolation for the same goals and if everyone joined forces - we would be a huge number.

sophis Thu 03-Mar-11 18:26:18

yeah i agree, only just found out about mumsnet caring about the same subjects i have been for years even though i have researched the subject so many times, its strange.

i deffinately think the more voices there are, the more people will be heard so have joined mumsnet but if anyone is interested in the seperate work i have done so far and would like something to go to on facebook i have already done a page but it needs more coverage.

i will look into the frontpagecampaign website as well thanks, everyone should all start working as one massive group, would be brill, but its great that people are doing their bit too where they can as individuals, i've seen some people have been able to make a difference at local levels so that's great to hear.

sophis Thu 03-Mar-11 18:26:52

i've already done a group sorry, its under groups

sophis Thu 03-Mar-11 18:30:35

i'm gonna put a link to it on my group, thanks, sounds brill!!

David51 Fri 04-Mar-11 11:08:48

About a year ago there was a TV debate between Anna van Heeswijk of OBJECT and lad mag editor Piers Hernu. Hernu was complaining that if the mags were covered up they would go out of business.

Let's hope he's right about that...

And if you haven't seen it here is the debate on youtube:

Lad mags

sophis Fri 04-Mar-11 21:17:48

hi, i don't really mind them being in buisness, even though i hate those magazines personally, but i really think it's best they cover them up in shops and just keep it out of the way, so people can buy them if they want but the rest of us don't have it shoved in our faces. i deffinately feel like it's affected my self esteem over the years, and all of society's pressure to be 'perfect'. luckily i haven't gone as far as having a boob job, bleaching my hair and getting a spray tan, or prostituting myself. but i can see how women have done this to feel better about themselves but i just think it leads to further issues.

anyway, different subject, but i think it's best covered up for children so they are not oversexualised too young and in teens-have their self esteem lowered by feeling like they're not good enough.

i will check out the debate

megfleet Fri 04-Mar-11 21:43:56

Sign the official petition to get magazines age restricted and covered up at

e982 Sat 05-Mar-11 11:24:24

midwifery jobs are going to be cut across britain due to the new government. this will increase the number of deaths of new born babies and healthy new mothers across Britain! we may not be able to change the governments mind, but we can make them listen!
please please help us student midwives! it only takes 90 seconds of your time and... as a result you may be helping us to save lives!

the health of our nation is the most important thing.

please sign the petition to help the government listen to what our country needs most!

NetworkGuy Sat 05-Mar-11 12:21:26

I am fairly sure that it was ex-editor/writer Piers Hernu who was on Gabby's show a week ago Tuesday, and said the same thing (about 'covering up') which was quickly rejected by Katie from MNHQ, explaining that two supermarket chains had been doing so for a while and there had not been a drop in sales.

I have to say that OBJECT sometimes "puts its foot in it" because their activities verge on lawbreaking when they carry out their 'Feminist Friday' actions. MNHQ has never pushed for abolition, and seem to have a far more "live and let live" attitude while understanding most parents would prefer there not to be easily viewable adult/lads mags on low shelves at newsagents, supermarkets, or petrol station shops.

sophis - "drivers license/ passport/ birth certificate" (in relation to age verification for viewing YouTube).

Sorry, cannot agree, I was born in the late 50s but have none of those at present (not a driver, passport expired a few years ago, no birth certificate to hand following an enforced move to another house).

I can see where you are coming from, but YouTube is perhaps 'policed' by viewers so if there is something objectionable, it can be reported. Such sites and content surely come under the general parental responsibilities for determining what is OK and what is not, for that family...

Please don't expect to force such controls on everyone else... similarly the idea to have to 'opt in' for viewing some channels - just don't have TVs in bedrooms of youngsters. Seems easy enough to me!

David51 Sun 06-Mar-11 11:49:43

NetworkGuy, I belong to OBJECT and we are not trying to abolish lad mags. Our position, which is quite similar to that of Mumsnet, is stated on the website:

Lads’ mags and newspapers such as The Sport should be recognised as part of the pornography industry and if sold, these publications should be covered up, put on the top shelf and age-restricted.

OBJECT website

As for 'bordering on illegality' there is in fact nothing illegal about putting magazines into paper bags, or having a sit-in. A legal issue would only arise if the manager asked the protesters to leave and they refused, as that could be interpreted as trespassing

David51 Wed 09-Mar-11 12:07:00

cross-posting to Feminism boards:

Lad?s magazines: Advice to a daughter

coveredinfelttip Thu 10-Mar-11 15:01:52

Well done Mumsnet - I have asked my (small independent) newsagent to put the Daily Sport behind other newspapers but they have not and looked blankly, making no comment when I asked them to conceal them. I'll be printing out a letter for them using your press release.

Please can we start a petition or email the retailers and/or the relevant government department using a form on Mumsnet like this one on Greenpeace for Hugh's Fish Fight?

sophis Sat 12-Mar-11 18:32:09

network guy-

''Sorry, cannot agree, I was born in the late 50s but have none of those at present (not a driver, passport expired a few years ago, no birth certificate to hand following an enforced move to another house).''

well sorry but at my age you have to have I.D for almost everything! im 26 and can't leave the house without i.d.

and i don't understand your point, plus i later decided without mentioning it,that youtube could have a third person policy like virgin mobile who uses a service to verify your age, which would be less hassle for the consumer anyway so don't worry about it.

the opt in scheme was just an idea, to make it so you have to go out of your way to view the desired channels of inappropriateness rather than go out of your way to avoid them.
i don't think banning tv's from youngsters rooms will work, but being able to control the viewing content would.

sophis Sat 12-Mar-11 18:33:34

well done for trying coveredinfelttip-keep going

sophis Sat 12-Mar-11 18:37:42

totaly agrees with this- david51

Lads’ mags and newspapers such as The Sport should be recognised as part of the pornography industry and if sold, these publications should be covered up, put on the top shelf and age-restricted.

i also think more media needs to be recognised as porn/soft porn and carefully places appropriately-hence ideas above

sophis Sat 12-Mar-11 18:38:17

*carefully placed-correction

NetworkGuy Sat 12-Mar-11 19:24:45

Glad you have revised your views, and while I agree that banning TVs from bedrooms is unlikely to be workable, if there are programmes such as have already been shown on BBC Three, Channel 4, Five, aimed at adults, and well past the 9pm 'watershed' then how do parents ensure there is no viewing (or recording) of them?

Whether the content is sexual in nature (educational, or documentary) it is only a subset of what one may want youngsters not to watch. Last night an Arnie movie was on, about some sci-fi plasma firing rifle. Killings and bad language went on throughout, as with many 'action movies', and it would escape any anti-porn filter, yet still be undesirable viewing for a 15yo (OK, they may have already seen such films and use bad language but one might not encourage viewing, after all).

By the way, I am totally in agreement with your comment (18:37) on lads' mags and so-called newspapers but don't see censoring as the main method of educating youngsters about why parents prefer (/insist) they do not view 'inappropriate' material whether on TV, internet or in magazines/ papers.

NetworkGuy Sat 12-Mar-11 19:29:31

"im 26 and can't leave the house without i.d."

One does not generally need to carry any ID, in the UK, at resent, or there would have been nothing for protestors against National ID cards to object about.

I'm still too young for a free bus pass, here in Wales, and apart from a bank debit card (which I don't always carry), I have no other form of "ID" yet cope perfectly well.

I can assume many motorists carry their licence in case they are stopped, because the alterative is more hassle, and some might carry a photocopy of car insurance documents to speed up checks if there was ever a problem, but don't believe these are mandatory items one needs to carry.

So for your convenience, perhaps, you carry ID, but not for any other requirement, or have I got this wrong ?

NetworkGuy Sat 12-Mar-11 19:31:55

(Of course, you might have another need to carry ID, such as being in the Police to be able to have authority to stop anyone, or for other types of job where some specific ID is needed for clearance to enter buildings or carry out certain tasks, but such ID is specialist to those careers, not a general requirement.)

David51 Mon 14-Mar-11 12:17:08

The last couple of times Ive been in Tescos they still had the lad mags on display.

I am going to contact the manager but does anyone know what Tescos have actually agreed to do and why nothing seems to have changed yet?

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 14-Mar-11 13:22:34

Hi David - Tesco has said that it's 'rolling out' a policy across its stores; see its statement on this page. If you email with the addresses of the stores you're concerned about, we'll see what we can find out for you.



NetworkGuy Mon 14-Mar-11 14:18:59

Thanks for the link, and full details. I had been about to complain to local Somerfield (owned by Co-Op) but see that they plan to push this only from April, so I'd have been somewhat premature to condemn them (even though they may have already received complaints).

Would be good to see a voluntary code (or enforced by legislation) for opaque covers which would block any 'get out' statements such as that from the Newsagents bodies (acknowledge they cannot enforce what it's a law, but however they 'suggest' it seems their words fall on deaf ears, when a profit can be made from some smutty mags... and no doubt the petrol station shops are under yet another body, or bodies as some will be independent and others parts of big fuel chains).

sophis Mon 14-Mar-11 17:12:46

i carry ID because i have to for cigarettes and alcohol. i have been stopped in the alcohol section in sainsburys and asked for ID for simply being in the alcohol section. in this country if you look 25 or under you will be ID'D for cigarettes and alcohol at any venue where you try to buy it or go into a pub or club especially on weekends. absolute fact. i am 26 but i look about 21 or possibly younger, i'm not complaining about it i'm just saying that people age 18+ in their 20's must carry ID for these reasons. i dont really understand what you're saying or what world you're living in because in my world i have to carry ID to buy a bottle of wine and am just used to it. i carry a learners driving licence even though i don't drive and would actually prefer a proper ID card, it may work out cheaper to do that as well.

sophis Mon 14-Mar-11 17:26:46

not sure what is going on here as we've somehow gone totally off the point so i will bring it back to

all inappropriate adult material should be able to be censored and kept away from people not wishing to see it or from people who may view it too young and overall stricter rules need to be applied.

when it comes to films i think there needs to be clearer guidlines as well, more thought needs to be put into the age guide as i think some have it wrong, and it should be compulsary to describe the content in a film on the back of a dvd or on a tv guide, like where some say, sex scenes, bad language, drug use and violence ratings on the back.

i dont understand what you mean by already been shown? if a program was intended for adults then it should only be shown again after 9pm, and if someone records it then they have chosen to do so.

on sky-you can pin block all different age groups and choose what is available and then it will block you from being able to see content of that agegroup unless you enter a pin. i think it still works if you record something. so that is something helpful.

censoring isnt about educating, is about protecting. education is a seperate issue and i'm not saying block everything and never tell children about life! just be careful not to throw graphic scenes in their face too young and it would be good if there was more help and co-operation from society on that subject rather than making a parents job nearly impossible at the moment.

NetworkGuy Mon 14-Mar-11 23:22:49

or what world you're living in because in my world i have to carry ID to buy a bottle of wine

Same world as you, but fortuntely/unfortunately I am somewhat older so don't have to prove I'm over 18 in the way you've been needing. Sainsbury's seems overly strict if they are asking for ID just for walking down an aisle. I assume they'd have a mini heart-attack if a mum walked down that aisle with a toddler either walking or on the seat of a trolley. Something to complain to the management at Sainsbury's about - a 'jobs-worth' going over zealous on checking IDs in my view.

"dont understand what you mean by already been shown?"

Merely to comment on material broadcast in recent months/ years. Such as 'Is oral sex safe' on BBC Three (recent) or various shows on C4, C5, which could be described as "explicit" in terms of language or visual content.

As for recording, what I was getting at was the possibility in some households for a digital box to be in a teenager's bedroom. With some teens being far more clued up than their parents (such as being able to pause a live broadcast if you have various Sky or other boxes), it is far from impossible that even if one of the 'house rules' is "in bed, lights out by 10:30pm" so a teenager could not watch something on BBC Three, C4 or C5 at 11pm. it's not that impossible to understand a teenager recording a show which is on late, and watching it atanother time.

So while 'dedicated' adult channels are not going to be freely viewable, with PINs to prevent viewing for example, the 'problem' is still out there, because how many parents would 'PIN-protect' a BBC channel, C4 or C5 (if it is even possible). (I don't have a Sky box and have not used one for maybe 10 years, though PIN-locking was available back then too.)

That's where a parent discussing material that is or is not acceptable seems more important to me than trying technological solutions to limit/ censor what is viewed, when so many non-adult channels can include scenes of violence, bad language, and yes, sexual material too, I see there being a responsibility for parents to do more, not less.

ribbons1 Fri 18-Mar-11 15:21:41

my local shop has loads of them as you walk in the front door. Its the local NISA STORE, SKINNER STEPS CUPAR, FIFE,KY15 AREA.

I feel disgusted that they display so many of these magazines and papers in the eye line of children. I dread when my kids ask me if they can get a magazine as these adult mags and papers are a couple of shelves up and the papers are at the bottom,its even more disturbing when you see young lads taking them of the shelves and having a look when young children are in the shop and can see what they are looking at.

NetworkGuy Fri 18-Mar-11 20:58:45

For purely academic reasons I glanced at the 'lads mags' in our local Co-Op and saw far less flesh on show (instead of hands covering their chests, they were wearing bikinis).

StewieGriffinsMom Fri 18-Mar-11 21:05:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sophis Fri 18-Mar-11 21:28:59

i think parents could do more to protect their children if they worked hard at it, like if they had a sky box you can pin protect a fair amount of it, or just not give them the luxury of sky in their room!! up to parents on that one, my main concern and plea is that society/media helps out on this whole matter making it easier for parents to control the media they are being presented with and what they do and don't want to see, and i again go back to -cover up lads mags for a start.

i was quite shocked for instance, when outside a local garage the other day, there was the daily sport showing a front page picture of a naked woman bending over revealing her arse and there may have been a g-string but was so small and squashed up between her cheeks i couldnt make out any underwear, it was reddiculous and extremely graghic, and on the bottom of the shelves so anyone could see, like little todlers walking around. it does make me cringe, and i think i will have to complain privately about that garage myself.

i just don't think it should be in people's faces like that. and you never get a man bending over backwards in that position either! so it's also quite a sexist world we live in. however that would not make it better.
lol at purely acedemic reasons, and yeah sometimes they do just wear bikinis, but its the provocative poses that is disturbing and giving out the sexual messages rather than what they are or are not wearing, but oftentimes they are wearing very little or just have little stars on their nipples or hands over chest, which is pathetic, you could hardly walk around the street like that because its indecent exposure and you would get arrested, yet they are in the publics view also and so therefore its indecent exposure also, and so should be covered like the rest of us have to. for example-i cant walk into a newsagents topless or in a thong, so i shouldn't be able to see others doing it, even if it is just images. in my opinion

NetworkGuy Sat 19-Mar-11 09:45:49

SGM - statement from Tesco said "We are pleased with the success of this trial and are now rolling this out across all Tesco stores."

I'd not waste your energy on complaining just yet. It would be best for MNHQ to get some firm dates from the stores as to when we can expect every store in their chain to comply.

Not sure who in Government could push it, but would like to see the lads mags forced to use opaque covers (along with adult mags), so it would no longer be an excuse by newsagents or petrol station shops that it costs too much - if it was forced on the mag publishers to cover up, it would be every shelf, every shop large or small and WHSmith would have no say in it.

It could be asked of them as a voluntary measure and if they ignored it, put into legislation. The voluntary "higher shelf" approach which was reported on the BBC News web site some years back may hold good for some newsagents, but seems to be ignored by plenty too, and I'd favour pushing lads mags into a similar category as adult mags if it stops them being on open display (might even see them dropped by some larger stores - they could probably sell more fashion mags if they had shelf space).

sophis Thu 24-Mar-11 00:52:50

would like to say something quite important in favour of this whole cover up lads mags, obviously most of you are in agreement anyway, but the thing that really gets me pissed off and has driven me for so long is simply this:

if one of the models from nuts/zoo/page 3 -the sun or the sport were to stand next to their image in the newsagents, in the same outfit and pose, they could well be arrested for indecent exposure. basically the model can't stand next to her own picture half naked in public! because of the law against public indecent exposure, therefore- these magazine must be covered up for inappropriateness and public indecent exposure, its the same law, this law should be used against the exposure of images that are indecent.

end of.

please support this and lets keep going on local stores .

claire king

NetworkGuy Wed 20-Apr-11 07:15:10

"lol at purely acedemic reasons"
Yes, it was purely academic, but laugh all you want, I was being serious.

Anyway, happened by chance to see C4's "The Sex Education Show" (New Series) - the Tuesday broadcast was "Stop Pimping our Kids" and went on the attack at Primark and Matalan (and gave mention to Mumsnet in relation to the second store). I missed the first half of the show, but they did mention the next will include something about magazines and should be on tonight at 9pm.

DIVAmag Wed 20-Apr-11 17:55:06

I'm a publisher and a parent - both our magazines are frustratingly placed at below metre height in most major retailers. Having spent the last 18 years campaigning to have our gay lifestyle magazines removed from the top shelf adult section, because they are not exploitative or adult in content, we have been for the past five years tucked away at the bottom shelf instead. Some retailers have the sense to place us higher up out of the reach of children and not tarred us with the same brush as these lads mags. I'm keen to see tonight's Channel 4 program because it is an issue that affects me both personally (parent) and professionally(publisher beholdent to retail policies and practice)!

NetworkGuy Thu 21-Apr-11 09:42:31

Popped into Asda superstore in town yesterday and saw they have FHM etc on top shelf in cardboard-fronted section which just has the magazine names on it. Only mag that "caught my eye" was a gay (male) mag with the slogan across the top of "Naked edition". Have to admit to not taking note of title to know where they are in the spectrum of gay men's mags but I'm fairly sure Asda does not stock 'porn' so must assume this was 'lifestyle'...

Was pleased to at least know the local Asda does use the top shelf and don't show covers blatantly, unlike some other shops.

Can quite understand your wish not to be tarred along with lads' mags, but how do you feel about the male gay mags? Are they intended to be more shocking or just not really covering 'lifestyle' when compared with yours, Diva?

Sorry to read of your many years frustration at being wrongly categorised, by the way.

DIVAmag Thu 21-Apr-11 10:08:01

So WH Smiths stand firm on their policy, despite being caught our in 1 out of about 500 stores. I'd like to know why the fully clad image of pre watershed's X-factor star Aidan Grimshaw on the cover of GT was seen as sexually suggestive?

I felt this program simply scratched at the surface of these issues and the mix of this strory sex education and moralising on sexual imagery in stores served only to deliver double standards in my opinion.

The issues around sexualised clothing aimed at young girls packs a much more effective punch.

DIVAmag Thu 21-Apr-11 10:20:55

Netywork Guy - many thanks. We have been through many stages of cover approval with the big supermarkets and yet at the same time encouraged to deliver bare-chested guys, naked and Sex issues as we are informed by our distributors these sell the best! In doing these themed issues we have to adhere to strict cover guidelines with WH Smiths and Tesco in particular leading on this. Our last Naked issue had a very tasteful waist up shot of a HollyOaks actor on the cover and we raised funds for THT with this issue. (Suspect it was Attitude's naked issue you saw in ASDA). I was outraged that last nights programme chose to tar us with the same brush with our Aidan/X Factor special issuePlus ca change! In the past we have asked to be positioned near Men's Health as our covers are no more explict than these, but this is not deemed acceptable and we are considered a category in between Men's Health and the Lads mags called "gay lifestyle". DIVA magazine has a whole other challenge in being lost in amongst the women's interest mags next to parenting, puzzles and ethic press. I believe our recent sex issue also caused some moral panic amongst Mumsnet users, despite adhering to content guidelines of the retailers. It is hoped that our body positive/real women issue will have had the reverse effect but I doubt that even got noticed!

NetworkGuy Thu 21-Apr-11 11:29:56

"served only to deliver double standards in my opinion"

I think the issues are far more clear cut - in previous series on C4 there have been discussions concerning how teens are far more familiar with porn than most of their parents will admit to and as a result, the educational aspects of how to protect against STIs and pregnancy are pushed a bit harder, because not all will 'rebel against peer pressure' and some get dragged into activities they might not really feel ready for... or have picked up poor info from chats with friends, or simply misunderstood some aspects of protecting themselves.

while on the other hand, the anti-lads mags, suggestive clothing, seems to be a concern for many (and perhaps in particular, those with pre-teenage children, as young as 4 or 5, because those children will often be with a parent on shopping trips and therefore may be affected by indiscriminate shelf use for 'adult' and lads mags (at least in smaller shops or petrol stations, perhaps not so much in the larger chains, at least as far as 'adult' mags).

DIVAmag Fri 22-Apr-11 10:06:45

WH Smiths have a reputation for constantly getting it wrong. No better example than a recent copy approval matter for DIVA where we were not allowed to say Lesbians Do It Best on a shelf-talker and it was suggested we replace the L word with "Girls" !!!! Censorship without sensitivity and more likely to get customer complaints.

I fully get the point of C4's program, but as someone who has had to deal with the decisions and policies of WH Smiths for years, including the fact that their travel points and high street branches have different policies and central decision making/approval processes (something the programmers weren't aware of). Fact is WH Smith High Street are probably fully compliant but WH Smith travel probably aren't. Looks to me like CH4 got their quote from WH Smith High St and not their Travel HQ who govern station stores like the one in Euston!

NetworkGuy Fri 22-Apr-11 22:42:50

Interesting about the split personality WHS policy making, and can see your frustration/ anger with the TV people as your experience with retailers gives you insight they will never get as theirs is a transitory interest...

sophis Sat 23-Apr-11 02:45:45

i watched all three programs in the series and thought it was really good but maybe should have been seperated into 2 shows, one for sex education the other for parents. but it was good how it covered inapropriate childrens clothing, the inappropriate placement of lads mags in some stores still and music channels-which is another one of my major concerns, that last episode was horrible to watch thinking that alot of children would have seen those types of music videos, its disgusting. but u can put a lock on things like that on sky and things. i think music videos though, alot of them have just become porn, just another type of porn, great, no imagination in the video then and not everyone wants to see it. theyre not taking women, children and gay men into consideration, maybe not everyone wants the same things all the time and children should deff be protected from it all in all ways possible preferably.

i would advise anyone who missed the program-the sex education program with the stop pimping our kids campagne, to catch up on 4od when its available, it should be now. and they are doing a review of things at some point in the next series.

HarrietJones Sat 23-Apr-11 07:45:51

Booths stock lads mags on the top shelf wrapped up. Postedlast night how impressed I was

HarrietJones Sat 23-Apr-11 11:35:16

And Asda has a front on theshelf so you don't see the cover

NetworkGuy Sat 23-Apr-11 15:33:35

Yes, HJ, local Asda here has a cardboard front so only the tops of mags can be seen (if one is tall enough).

AmyK1 Wed 01-Jun-11 11:28:05

Mumsnet, what are you doing to check that these retailers are keeping their commitments? I was in Asda just the other day and there was no attempt to hide the front covers of the lad's mags which held their usual pride of place at the eye-level of a 12-year old hmm.

I have seen screens being used in my local BP which definitely weren't there before.

niksat Tue 07-Jun-11 18:05:48

I have concerns about the free Sport magazine that is given out on a Friday as it contains a centrefold type double page of a virtually naked girl in a sexual pose. Being a free magazine about sport, many young boys pick it up, either at point of issue, or after someone has discarded it on trains/buses. I'm sure the magazine would say that their target readers are adult, but by the very nature of it being free, many children read it too. A magazine this freely available to children should not be allowed to contain objectifying pictures, who can I write to about it, and would you be able to inform your supporters about it as being a sport based magazine, I doubt many women are aware of the centrefold aspect of it!

joinedtheclub Sun 12-Jun-11 08:28:49

Tesco in Douglas, Isle of Man, keeps it's stock of Nuts, Zoo etc on a high shelf but on a back wall so as you turn the corner, you can see the the contents of the top shelf even if you're 2 ft tall. Not good enough me thinks.

margieF Sun 11-Sep-11 21:00:41

Although SAINSBURYS have claimed to sign up to this - my local store in WEYBRIDGE SURREY has NUTS and ZOO at floor level in full view of children. I have complained about this at least 10 times, ie every time I have been in - both instore and to H.O. and nothing has been done.

gemp84 Sat 19-Nov-11 16:03:54

My local morrisons ovisously has taken no notice of this pledge when doing up there store as not only was the lads mags at childs eye view but also had no modesty covers over them. I pointed this out in a complaint to member of staff but i am sure nothing will be done about the matter.

gemp84 Sat 19-Nov-11 16:04:57

forgot to say the store is in paignton - makes me wonder what other morrisons stores are like this

Hilltopper Sat 10-Dec-11 19:32:28

I couldn't agree more with LadyBlahBlah; explicit men's (boys?) mags should not be a part of the offering of supermarkets. In the meantime, having just become aware of this campaign, I'll be keeping an eye on my local Sainsbury's and any others I visit.

The reason I just joined MumsNet and noticed this is that I was looking for information about the women in Tonbridge who got WH smith to remove their 'Women's Fiction' labels on book shelves. I noticed recently that Sainsbury's categorise their mags according to things like Men's Lifestyle, Women's Interests, and so on. Presumably, they don't allow women to buy magazines about cars, angling, or any other men-only pursuits!

I'm about to write to the management about this, heartened by the success of the Tonbridge Two. I'll keep you posted.

I'm a bloke, by the way...

jarl Sat 17-Dec-11 14:45:30

Not sure how many of you are uk based, but saw there's a UK E-petition to make a law for 'modesty covers' on magazines with sexually explicit material on the front cover, so that toddlers don't see this rubbish. If it reaches 100,000 signatures (early days lol) it'll trigger a debate in the house of commons to talk about it.

laquix Thu 28-Jun-12 17:10:26

Hello! If this is the right place to give feedback on the uptake of the 'Let Girls Be Girls' campaign, then I can certainly say that if The Co-operative have signed up, their outlet on Danebury Avenue, Roehampton is not abiding by any commitment to keep Zoo, etc and the cheap nasty dailies out of sight. Having emailed The Co-operative myself a few months ago, complaining about the magazines etc, I was assured by their PR person that regular checks are carried out. From what I have seen, I doubt it. If it is possible for those running the 'Let Girls Be Girls' Campaign to reiterate the point with the Co-operative, this would be helpful! Thanks!

laquix Thu 28-Jun-12 17:13:29

Hey, the e-petition for modesty covers has expired!! I am sure if more people knew about it they would have signed! Can anything like this run again? The number of signatures was disappointing low on the last one when it closed!

Childeyes Fri 01-Mar-13 15:41:44

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Startail Fri 01-Mar-13 15:52:11

Like pg. 3 just somethink else I can't be very bothered to get annoyed by.

Startail Fri 01-Mar-13 15:56:21

Violent games adverts and arcade machines visible to young DC do make me very angry indeed.

I don't mind sex and nudity, they are a totally natural part of everyone's life.

But blood and gore, for fun - No!!!

RobotHamster Fri 01-Mar-13 16:04:58

Old thread

NetworkGuy Sat 01-Jun-13 11:17:46

RH - yes, it is an old thread. Will have a look to see if MNHQ has reported how "effective" the campaign was, and whether it needs to be repeated... if certain store chains are still ignorant.

NetworkGuy Sat 01-Jun-13 11:19:25

Hmmm, seeing as mag subscriptions can be ordered online, it's effectively another area where some youngster looking for "paintball monthly" might stray into the "men's" / "adult" area...

Wonder what the supermarkets sell online in the way of lads' mags ?

Malemum Mon 29-Jul-13 13:01:58

I'm astonished that a certain element of society, pressure groups and web forums have taken this approach, a few pointers and facts.

A,No one is forced to view these mags.
B,Women choose this career the same way men do.
C,Try reducating children instead of demonising them.

I bet parents won't boycott holiday destinations which women openly walk with scantly clad bikini's, I'm glad the likes of Tesco and WH Smith carry on regardless and improved intelligence, understanding its not glorifying women or men for that fact.

Hypocrisy is an understatement.

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