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Why are Londoners so child un-friendly ??

136 replies

unhappyinlondon · 14/07/2005 21:01

I have become so frustrated with trying to make friends with other parents since my DS was born that I thought I would try and may be find some answers on this website.

DS is now 13 months old and despite numerous attempts to find friends, companions, coffee mates, etc. by various means (this website, other websites, toy libraries, NCT, etc) I have totally failed.

I am a very extroverted, happy, smiley individual with an absolutely adorable, gorgeous, smiley and happy 13 month old son. So what's wrong ?

Two recent experiences, I went to a baby birthday party at the invitation of a mother I had met through this website who had her own established mother & baby group - DH, DS and I arrived all happy and jolly thinking we would all have a good time. The hostess greets us, shows us the kitchen, says help yourself to drinks and that's that. She doesn't even bother to introduce us to her husband or parents, DH, DS and I are left sitting in a corner, no one talks to us, people stare at our baby, and that's that. We feel so uncomfortable we leave after 10 mins. flat.

Second example, I went to a local toy library, a well-known and popular one frequented by many local mums with babies and toddlers, no one talks to us, although I try to open up conversations with a few of the mothers, one mother nearly treads on DS's little fingers while he is crawling, and then looks down towards him in total horror as though it's his fault for getting in the way. DS tries to grab another mother's handbag from a chair (he does the same to my hand bag at home, loves to pull everything out and then put them back inside again). I stop son from grabbing woman's handbag and I look at her and say jokingly with a huge smile "he loves handbags" - she looks back at me with a horrid angry face as though DS has done something awful - he is only 13 months old for God's sake !

I have lived in the UK and another European country since 1977. I have lived in London for over 14 years. I have a British passport and so does DS. We are white caucasians (sorry to bring up the subject of race) and I have a "posh" British accent due to private education here in the UK. I live in an affluent part of London, i.e. I am just trying to say that physically and in other respects we do not stand out from our London neighbours.

But experiences like these since DS was born make me feel like an outcast. I have made two relatively good friendships with women from my ante natal clases, but due to travel distance I hardly ever see them now.

I am so unhappy, I keep planning to leave the UK for somewhere more child friendly. But DH has work commitments here and this fact stops us from leaving.

Does anyone else have similar experiences ??

OP posts:
hunkermunker · 14/07/2005 21:12

Sorry you've had such bad experiences. Whereabouts in London are you? Do you have a health visitor you could ask about baby groups, etc? Local churches often have mother and toddler groups you could try?

NotQuiteCockney · 14/07/2005 21:19

I find London quite baby friendly. People are sometimes cranky, but I tend to assume that they're tired/worn out/whatever and not take it personally.

I live in a poorish part of London, and have a North American accent. I do think being foreign makes it a bit harder (as does my v. short hair, no doubt), but I don't find it hard to talk to people at all. (And I'm not great about introducing people, largely because I'm forever forgetting names!)

I think if you keep going to the same things, you will make friends. Just please don't take crankiness personally! I'm sure I'm cranky with other people and their kids sometimes, but it's more to do with being tired or too hot.

NotQuiteCockney · 14/07/2005 21:19

Oh, and much like dating, I think setting out to find friends doesn't work. Just go to baby groups you enjoy, and enjoy yourself. Friends will appear.

KBear · 14/07/2005 21:20

have you thought about trying swimming lessons with your baby - you are bound to get chatting there and it's a fun atmosphere and more relaxed. I am a Londoner and I know how you feel but I think it is the same at toddler groups the world over. Some are friendly and some are not. Sorry you're so unhappy but do keep trying.

hunkermunker · 14/07/2005 21:21

Yes, perhaps try a paid-for activity, if you can. That way people are all there for a focus (be it swimming, baby signing, etc) and there's less emphasis on groups of mummy friends sitting around drinking tea and chatting.

slim22 · 14/07/2005 21:25

hi,
live in marylebone area and have few tips for friendly places/faces.
let me know if you are the area.
PS: unfortunately relocating to Amsterdam in 2 weeks......

NotQuiteCockney · 14/07/2005 21:26

Oooh, yes, good idea. Singing groups, swimming, whatever. Something where people sign up for X weeks, so you'll certainly get the same people every week.

Blondeinlondon · 14/07/2005 21:28

Hello
I've found it to be mixed so far. I go to a playgroup which is fairly cliquely - people just tend to sit with those they know (I too am guilty of this). However apart from the aupairs from eastern europe all are welcoming and will chat to newcomers

I went to another group on Monday but I haven't been to it many times and everyone was oooh I've not met you before - felt like the new girl in school all over again

My baby chums from antenatal class are all heading back to work soon so I am starting to wonder what I'm going to do...

KBear · 14/07/2005 21:30

Also see if your local sports centre runs a gymtots thing.

spidermama · 14/07/2005 21:31

It seems like you've just been a bit unlucky so far. Don't let it put you off trying to make friends with others. I'm sure you'll meet people.

I used to go to baby music groups (more for the mums than the babies really), and toddlers gyms. Sometimes it takes a bit of time to find people you resonate with.

Good luck.

batters · 14/07/2005 21:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

yingers74 · 14/07/2005 22:11

unhappyinlondon - your experience sounds a lot like mine when I first gave up work to be a full time mum, my dd was 14 months old. It took me a long long time to get to the stage where I now am friendly with a lot of mums and am pretty content being at home. There were days when I really regretted leaving work. I volunteered at groups, attended open days, hosted open days, organised things etc etc. I also had the disadvantage of never attending ante-natal classes so I basically knew no other mums!!!!
What I am saying is don't give up, u eventually become part of the furniture and people talk to u.

unhappyinlondon · 15/07/2005 07:55

batters - I am not picking on that particular mum who may not have had time to look after my family. She looked like she did have time as she was quite busy chatting to her long-time friends. But why invite people to your house if you are going to totally ignore them ?

It's a cultural thing. I come from a very friendly and open culture where children are very much adored - even by complete strangers.

I recently had my DS's birthday party at home. Everyone spoke a different language, and although I was extremely busy in the kitchen preparing all the food all on my own, I had made sure that my DH and mother didn't leave anyone out and chatted to them while I was busy.

But that is just the way I am. I was the same at school. If a new kid arrived who had no friends or was bullied, I was always the first to stick up for them and help them settle in.

OP posts:
unhappyinlondon · 15/07/2005 08:03

yingers - thanks for your words of advice. I do often feel like giving up on people, but I can't for the sake of my child.

He is an only child as DH and I have decided not to have any more so it is really important that DS has lots of friends. I hope that things will change once he goes to nursery. He is an extremely happy and sociable boy so I don't think he will have difficulty finding friends of his own.

OP posts:
Twiglett · 15/07/2005 08:44

honest advice coming up

.. do not look to eager or desperate at playgroups .. when you first join any group there is already a social dynamic going on that you can't bulldozer through and make friends immediately .. the first few times you go just smile at people and be pleasant .. let them open the conversation. If that hasn't happened within 3 or 4 visits then start conversations with the people you get the warmest feeling from and after a couple of conversations invite them out to a park for a coffee or something

.. with regards to the party. leaving within ten minutes would be seen as being quite rude IMO .. this woman reached out to you she probably was caught up in things when you arrived and the next time you turned round she'd gone.. in terms of parties I would suggest opening conversations with other people, commenting on how nice the host family is etc etc

keep trying .. the british social system is unusual and is a mixture of reserve and friendliness ... keep trying other groups too

where are you based in london?

Fran1 · 15/07/2005 09:13

I have had similar experiences to yours, i think we all have at some point or another.

I think, often people (even the hostess) are too shy to introduce you, and don't know how to start a conversation.

I say this because if i sit and wait, noone will make conversations with me - they are happy to continue in small groups of people whom they are comfortable with. But if i make the effort and make the conversation they turn out to be pleasant happy people very willing to chat 9 times out of 10.

I have been guilty of assuming new people don't want to talk. Sitting quietly in the corner with their body language glaring don't come near me - i have come to realise can also mean - i want the ground to open up and swallow me if noone talks to me in the next 5 minutes.

I don't think it matters what race you are or what culture you are from. If you're in Britain, thats the way it is!

Windermere · 15/07/2005 09:23

unhappyinlondon. It is not just London, I find the same thing too. I think that people already have their own little group of friends and don't welcome newcomers. That is how it seems to me anyway.

Twiglett has given good advice but I must admit I am always too nervous to invite people out in case they say no. Pathetic I know

unhappyinlondon · 15/07/2005 12:31

twiglett - I don't want too go into much more detail about that particular outing - I actually think it is extremely rude to invite someone to your house whom you are aware is new to that particular group and not take the initiative to introduce them to any one - not even your own husband.

I don't think DH and I were rude at all. We were extremely pleaseant as usual tried to break the ice by smiling at people and saying hello to everyone - I even said hello to one particulr man who refused to say hello back. The whole experience was so unpleasnat we had no choice but to leave. We felt totally unwelcome.

In these situations it is the responsibility of the host/hostess to introduce people. Certainly that is what I do in my home.

It all comes down to tact and social graces - unfortunatley I find many people do not even have basic social skills - that is not just a comment about Londoners - people like this exist every where but as I have said I think some cultures find it much easier to be "inclusive".

OP posts:
Flossam · 15/07/2005 12:41

I find that DS is made a fuss off by strangers all over London! I get about a bit (oh-er!!) and DS has travelled on the tube since he was a newborn. I have only had one issue from members of the public that I can recall, and he was an obvious unpleasant type. Recently I got on a 'one pram only' bus and a chap offered to collapse his buggy so that I (ON my own) wouldn't have to struggle.

Now DS is very insistant on getting attention from people - he will stare at you in amazement if you don't look at him - but I don't think it is just that. Also I have only ever been to one pub where we were told we were not welcome with the baby. Are you in North, South, East West?

NotQuiteCockney · 15/07/2005 13:00

It sounds like unhappyinlondon is having problems at baby groups, more than elsewhere ...

I find strangers very friendly with babies and kids, too. Both my boys are very outgoing, and I sometimes get into funny situations with strangers on the bus holding the baby, and me not being entirely comfortable about this (worried he'd get dropped).

The licensing laws here do make some venues difficult. I used to really like All Bar One, and now I can't go. But that's a UK thing, not a London thing.

wordsmith · 15/07/2005 13:04

Unhappyinlondon - you say you have lived in London for 14 years, have you felt like this before? Or is it just since having your child? If you have been in London that long surely you know someone with children, even if they're not the same age as yours? I'm not from London but I doubt if it's much different anywhere else. Having said that I found virtually all of my 'baby' friends I made from postnatal group, which was when my DS was bout 6 weeks old so well before 13 months - we just kept in touch. Some went back to work,. some stayed at home, some were a bit of both, some fell by the wayside, just like any other group. I would probably have had problems making friends with other mums had it not been for this because I can't stand mum & toddler groups. However it sounds like you're doing all you can to try, perhaps you've just not found the right group yet. I found you need to keep going for a few weeks and then people will start seeing you as part fo them. Socialising is a very strange thing....

frogs · 15/07/2005 13:10

There are individual child-haters on London buses as anywhere -- don't judge everybody by them. Equally there are delightful strangers who will go out of their way to play peep-bo with your baby on the Underground.

Wrt closer friendships, it can be hard to break into British social groupings -- I know that many friends and relatives who have come from abroad to university or jobs here have ended socialising mainly with other 'foreigners' (for want of a better word) because they've never managed to crack the code and get themselves accepted.

I don't think this is just about being non-child friendly, but something that's more widely true of British society at all levels. Most English people are quite shy cuturally (even the extrovert ones) and can feel uncomfortable with people who don't quite fit with their group, mainly because they don't know how to 'read' outsiders, or know quite what to expect from them.

I'm not defending this attitude, nor do I think it's particularly conscious, but I do think it's quite widely true. In the end most people have a comfort zone for their social relationships, and it takes effort to move outside that. Some people may not want to make that effort, others ( and this is probably true of lots of parents) are simply so exhausted by holding it all together that they barely have the energy to meet up with their oldest friends never mind get to know new people. And when they do meet new people, they tend to feel more relaxed in the company of people who they instinctively recognise as being one of them.

I don't know you and wouldn't presume to interpret your account of the mother and baby group you attended that you felt went so wrong. But from the way you tell it, it might well be that you were too ready to expect other people to take the initiative and too ready to judge them when they didn't. English social codes are quite subtle -- ten minutes is in no way long enough for you to have assessed the dynamics of the situation or for the other people there to have assessed you. I've seen lots of these 'international' encounters go wrong because English people have interpreted the non-Brit's manner as too 'in-your-face' and aggressive; meanwhile the poor foreigner is flummoxed by the endless faffing and beating about the bush before getting to the point that passes for politeness in England.

Be patient, cart your child around to lots of groups until you find some where you like the look of the people. Hang out, check them out, and make lots of small talk. If they are the kind of people that you would get on with, then it will develop from there.

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yingers74 · 15/07/2005 16:03

unhappyinlondon - I live in ealing/acton west london so if you are also in that area, check out & leave a message on the meet ups in ealing thread. I wish you luck and once again a little morale support, I know how it feels and know it can really chip away at your confidence.

unhappyinlondon · 16/07/2005 07:17

yingers - that is very sweet of you. Thanks for your kindness. You live a little too far away from me. You are right it has chipped away at my confidence - odd as I am usually very confident.
Like someone mentioned perhaps I am one of those "in your face" foreigners. Despite living here in the UK for all these many years, I guess I never mananged to develop that natural English reserve. To be honest I don't want to either, as I would only be giving up my individuality.

I will just have to go on until I find mothers who have a similar personality. I do have several very close English friends, but they do not have children and another who does has moved abroad. My ex-work colleagues gave up on me the minute I got married and had a child - my sister had a similar experience with her work colleagues. Often single people can't relate to a mother with a young child, and of course I don't blame anyone for that. Our life styles are too different, I can't go and sit in smoke-filled pubs for hours on end or night clubbing like I used to when I was single !! I guess this adjustment to becoming a mother has been very difficult for me.

OP posts:
bossykate · 16/07/2005 07:43

whereabouts in london are you?

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