2nd MC on Xmas Day - what to do?

[northlondonchoclover]

Hello ladies,

Sorry if what follows is too much of a rant / TMI/ just all about me but I am just so devastated and not sure at all what to do except to turn to you for help/advice ...

I had a MC on Xmas day, would have been 7.5 weeks. Midwife managed to extract the pregnancy sac at the hospital and I got sent home. The little bean had probably died earlier on as she said it didn't look like a 7 week pregnancy. I had a MC in September, at 5.5 weeks. The first one came as a surprise, and was unprepared so had no idea how to pee on a stick etc. after 3 test kits of faint positive lines, I MCed.

First time was horrible but this time is devastating. I thought I did everything right - took folic acid, stopped drinking, eating sushi, stopped eating eggs sunny side up, stopped pilates classes, stopped running, cancelled skiing holiday, rested a lot, went to bed early, even abstained from sex.

Now I feel just empty and a complete failure. Sure, books, websites and well meaning medical personnel & relatives keep telling me its just bad luck and there's nothing I could have done. Nothing will be done until I have another MC. Not sure I can go through this again. It doesn't help that everybody I know seem to be getting pregnant with ease ( I know at some level this is a very stupid immature thing to say, but just found out that 2 friends are pregnant at first try )

Where should I start my research on causes of miscarriage? Should I be contacting private doctors at this stage? Is there likely to be something wrong with me? To the many ladies here who have gone through even more MCs, how do you find the strength to keep up hope?

[bb99]

I am so sorry for your losses and what you are going through. It does just feel unfair as it is, especially at this time of year.

I've got through different things with a lot of support from other lovely people on here , in RL and letting myself greive.

Don't know where to start research, I like some of the information from RCOG

It can make quite heavy and upsetting reading sometimes, but have highlighted three links.

tabs on LHS show different leaflets

recurrent mc leaflet

early mc leaflet

Also the Miscarriage Association have some leaflets - you can google them and get through from their portal. Again leaflets can IME be frustrating and often there's not a huge amount of information about causes - sorry .

Someone posted that you're not a failure after a mc, your body has tried to do something unbelievably complicated and had a great success achieving what it did. Sounds like ashes at times, I know, but I try to hang on to that one.

Try to be kind to yourself - Christmas can be hard with this sort of thing at the best of times. xx

[becklespeckle]

Hiya, so sorry to hear of your loss, m/c is hard to bear whatever stage you are at. Books and websites are possibly right that it is bad luck although there may be an underlying cause. I would say it might be worth a trip to your doctor for a chat but most GPs won't start any investigations until you have had 3 consecutive m/cs.

Personally I would not say I kept up hope when trying again after m/cs, it was just that I had a baby-shaped gap I needed to fill, giving up wasn't really an option. Pregnancy wasn't easy but the PG after MC thread on here was a godsend to me as was the TTC after MC thread when I was trying.

The only real advice I have though is to rest and look after yourself. Don't rush into trying again until you are ready.

[sunburntats]

Me too, stopped alcohol, tea, coffee, took folic acid, went to bed early, lots of rest, changed my diet, 5 a day blah blah blah...here i am had 5th mc 3 weeks ago.

I do not accept that it is just bad luck.

I had 2 mcs before i had my son, who is 6 now.

Had 3 more mcs in last 18 months.

My message to you is dont give up. It can and will happen for you.
You did absolutely nothing wrong, if a bean is going to stick it will regardless of what you do and dont do. This was not your fault.

Keep going.
You need to grieve as you have suffered a huge, unmeasurable, awful loss.

Try again, you can do it.

[northlondonchoclover]

Thank you for all the kind words. Am focusing on eating well and resting at the moment. Ordered some MC books online to understand more about this issue. Mumsnet has been a lifeline.

It is so difficult to accept that conceiving and carrying a preganancy successfully depends so much on chance and that there was nothing I could have done (or could do in the future) differently that would have made a difference to the outcome. Its just an illusion of control. I guess that is life.

becklespeckle and sunburntats, you are so courageous to keep trying! I do understand the concept of a baby shaped hole inside so one day I will get back on the horse.

xx

[becklespeckle]

xxx
I'm glad you're taking good care of yourself and I totally agree that MN is a lifeline, I could not have got through TTCing or my last pg without it. I am not that courageous though, I just couldn't bear for my last pg to end in mc, I so badly wanted another DC - she's nearly 2 now and an absolute delight - it was all worth it.

These ladies may be some help for you when you do decide to get back on the horse xxx

[kissmummy]

hi northlondon , i have had four consecutive miscarriages despite having a healthy 2.5yr old who arrived with no problems. i remember really well how i felt after my second miscarriage. i thought the first one was just bad luck but this was harder to believe after two. the first thing i'd say is that as you've "only" had two miscarriages, there's still every chance your next pregnancy will be absolutely normal. i know this is hard to believe right now but it's true. try not to make this any bigger in your mind unless you miscarry again, though i know that's far easier said than done. the second thing i'd say is take one day at a time. it's a cliche but it does work. if you have a bad/low day, just try to get through that day, without wondering how you can cope with the weeks/months ahead. thirdly i'd say don't be surprised if you have ups and downs over the next few weeks or even months. with my first three miscarriages it didn't quite seem real for the first few days- i'm usually focusing on getting over the physical side of things - and then the misery really kicked in later. (with the fourth i was just utterly devastated as it was then clear i had a serious problem).
i would not contact private doctors unless you've had three mcs. investigations are expensive, the consultations can be distressing, and hopefully you don't need any tests anyway.
keeping up hope is really hard. i'm not sure i personally do feel that hopeful any more. but somewhere deep inside i believe it will happen for me. I don't know why - perhaps just because my DS arrived so easily, it doesn't seem rational for me not to be able to have any more. So though i don't feel exactly hopeful, i know i have to keep going.

[sunburntats]

kissmummy i could not have put it better myself.
I too dont feel very hopeful, but stil have to keep going.
Today i bought a pregnancy test for the future, so i am thinking ahead and i am thinking positively. have to admit that a BFP on these tests does not mean anything at all to me. I no longer get that excited feeling in my tummy when i see it. I just think "please please let this one be ok".

The anxiety starts there and then.

Have you had testing kissmummy? What were the tests and what did they show? (ive had 5 mcs now, last one 3 weeks ago)

[kissmummy]

oh sunburntats i'm not sure where to begin with my saga! i actually emailed someone else on mumsnet who asked about all the tests i've had/am having and if you'd be interested i'll dig the email out and forward it to you. It is the whole list...! i had various basic tests on the NHS after miscarriage no3 which showed up nothing. I then went on to try again, using baby aspirin and progesterone. there is little evidence of benefit from progesterone but my GP's attitude was that it couldn't do any harm so was worth a try. This time we got a heart beat, which is further than we got before. that was at 8 weeks. by nine weeks the bean had died. so i'm afraid progesterone and aspirin don't solve whatever my issue is.
The NHS was utterly useless after the handful of basic tests we had, so after MC no4 in October, we went to see a private specialist who investigates immunological reasons for miscarriage (NK cells etc) as well as "conventional" reasons. We had to wait for my cycles to return which has taken a long time and will have our blood tests in January. If they show nothing I will try one final thing which is a hysteroscopy, but don't hold out much hope from that. I just do not know how i can cope with another miscarriage, and am praying for some answers from these tests and yet if they show nothing, i suppose we'll carry on trying anyway. I'm "only" 35, which is better than 40, and this whole saga started when i was 33.
the only certainty is that if you don't play the lottery you can't win, so i guess i'll keep going.
have you had any tests?five miscarriages is just unbelievable...do you have any children? i'm so lucky in that at least i do have one child. it makes the misery a bit more bearable.

[sunburntats]

Hi, yes i have a son who is 6.
I had 2 mcs before i got him.
3 mcs in the last 18 months.

Ive had blood tests, dh had blood tests, all absolutley fine.

The last mc 3 weeks ago, we had a heart beat....could not believe my eyes. I got to 10 weeks, which just like you is the furthest ive got.
Always have blighted ovums, how about you, have you had these?

So, gynae man wants me to give Clomid a whirl. Im waiting for a period, then will start them probably in Feb.

Im told that my progesterone levels are sufficently low to prevent me from ovulating, which expalins whay it takes quite a while for me to get pregnant in the 1st place.

Im 40 next year

[kissmummy]

hmmm, i don't think i've had a blighted ovum - i've certainly never been diagnosed with one. all my failed pregnancies have had fetal poles/ embryos of some sort so i think that rules blighted out blighted ovum.
i don't seem to have any problem conceiving...usually get pregnant within one-three months, which is a blessing. if i were older i'd feel that maybe my eggs were not good enough quality or something but that doesn't seem so likely from the age of 33 (though obviously they're not as tippy top as they'd be at 23) and so far none of the experts i've consulted has blamed age. it's all really, really hard. i've been writing a book (not about miscarriage!) since miscarriage no4, which has kept me totally occupied and really helped take my mind off things, but it is finished now and i'm crashing a bit...

[sunburntats]

OOh a book! How fabulous, is it fiction/crime/romance??? What is it about? Im a HUGE reader and havent read anything good in ages!

I have gone through every scenario in my head on reasons...from bad sperm good egg, to good egg bad sperm, to bad egg, bad sperm, to howmonal imbalancces. I have NO idea why this keeps happening, neither does any one else. I have had 3 blighted ovums.

I know absolutely and without doubt that i have done nothing to cause the losses.
I am so controlled, take folic acid, pregnancy vits, cut out tea, coffee, alcohol, eat a good and healthy diet, rest, dont flap, all for months leading to conception.

[ItsGraceAgain]

I'm so sorry your baby decided not to stick What a rotten Christmas.

Please don't think it's anything you did - or didn't do. Babies are born in refugee camps, on battlefields and to drug-addicted, starving, diseased victims of circumstance. Nobody knows what causes miscarriage, but it's almost certainly nothing to do with vitamins or gym classes.

One thing for sure is that between 1-in-3 and 1-in-5 pregnancies naturally abort. It's always horrible - your body's already started making 'mummy' hormones and the distress is hard to describe to anyone who hasn't been there. I know.

But ... please give up on looking for a reason, or something/somebody to blame (not even yourself). It's natural, unfortunately.

Treat your self like the special woman you are, because you deserve it! Ease up on the anxiety (what will be, will be) and wait for your body to readjust itself. Pray, if you're that way inclined. Take good care of you. One day, when it feels right enough, your baby will "stick".

Much love,
Grace

[kissmummy]

sunburn its the true story of a very senior figure in the labour party who was treated very badly by the prime minister. He knows where all the bodies are buried and it's his inside story of what went on behind the scenes.
it's my first book and i'm very excited as the rights have sold for a fantastic price to a newspaper. i didn't expect so much interest.
i actually hate political books - i'm far too lazy to read anything that serious - but it's a real human interest story about how this guy gave everything for his job and nearly lost everything: his marriage, his foster children, and almost his freedom. I tried to write it in a chatty, easy style.
the newspaper that has bought the rights will run extracts from it soon. writing it was my therapy after miscarriage no4...
iitsGraceAgain your messasge is lovely.

[kissmummy]

sorry, just re-read my post and wonder if it sounds boastful - it's not meant to. it will probably only sell about five copies - one to each of my family!

[northlondonchoclover]

Dear kissmummy, sunburn and grace

Thank you for the support and sharing your stories! You have really helped me to see that I am not alone and there are others going through the same suffering. Until now I have never realised that MC was so common, its still a bit of a taboo isn't it, nobody really talks about it much. I am trying hard not to blame myself or even feel too sorry for myself about it - there are so many out there who have gone through much worse..

I am feeling physically and emotionally better, and have been resting at home since the mc happened. My GP booked a scan for me tomorrow morning, hopefully its all in order down there. Loved ones have been very supportive too.

Kissmummy - CONGRATULATIONS on the book deal, I celebrate achievement and you deserve to be proud of yours! We have to enjoy the happy things in life to balance out the sad events. I am looking forward to going back to work in the new year to take my mind of the loss and focus on other things.

Also did some reading about MCs, and I think mine was a blighted ovum - there was a fetal sac but no sign of a fetus. And the midwife said that it didn't measure like a 7 week, so the bean must have stopped developing a while ago. The NHS does not test for problems until after the 3rd MC, I am considering whether to go for private tests - IF I had a problem that could easily be rectified by a progesterone pill/baby aspirin and started taking that when I next get pregnant then I could possibly be saving myself the grief of another MC. Or could it just cause unnecessary stress, like you said kissmummy? my uncle who is a GP is against going for tests. Well I have ordered the lesley reagan book to learn more about this condition.

xx

p/s just watched pirates of the carribean : at world's end. i love johnny depp

[kissmummy]

northlondon , it's a difficult one, regarding whether to go for tests now, to potentially spare yourself another MC. age might be relevant in this decision...if you are late 30s, early 40s, then it might be a good idea to get the ball rolling sooner than if you are younger and have more time to play with. i personally don't regret not going for tests after MC no2, even though i went on to have another two MCs and there may be more to come. i think it would have made the whole thing even bigger in my mind at a stage when there was still a good chance there wasn't actually a medical problem. i do however regret not throwing every resource we had at the problem after MC no.3. Instead we went with the NHS, had some basic tests which took forever, and saw a consultant for a mere 20mins who advised us to wait another six months before trying again. as we followed this advice and then went on to have MC no4, we have "wasted" a whole year of fertility time. When we finally saaw a private consultant it emerged there were some basic tests we could have had long ago but were not offered, as well as more sophisticated ones the NHS never does.
But we could not have known that. On balance my advice would be that if you are under 36 to try and have another go before going down the route of private tests; but if you are much over 36 then it might be worth testing earlier. I do totally understand the need to DO something. My coping strategy was always to have some sort of Plan. After miscarriage no4 i got through the first three weeks by booking what seemed like endless appointments with experts. it was apart from anything else a way of making myself feel I was doing something about the problem, and got me from one day to the next

[northlondonchoclover]

Hi kissmummy, thank you for the advice.

I am 32 (everyone tells me there is plenty of time). The gynaecologist told me there is inconclusive evidence that progesterone pills work to prevent MCs, and that a new study is about to commence to study this. Heparin however, does work for those with antiphospholipid syndrome. She also mentioned that the majority of investigations into women with 2 MCs show nothing wrong.

I would like to give it one more try before going through a whole series of tests but it does seem to make sense to take the test for specifically antiphospholipid syndrome. If, and its a very big if, that I do have that condition and since it is easily rectifiable, then I would have saved myself the heartache of another MC. If not (the much more likely scenario) then I will have to try again and see what happens. If I didn't do any tests and went ahead to try and the MC was due to antiphospholipid syndrome, then I would feel very annoyed with myself.

It would be very tough for me to just not do anything and try again. I have a great need for understanding everything about MCs and what went wrong.

[kissmummy]

northlondon i'm like that too, and that's one reason why i've found recurrent miscarriage so hard to deal with. i want to be able to control things, find reasons for them, work out strategies to overcome problems, and so on, and yet, it can be impossible with this particular thing.
i find it immensely frustrating that there is so little medical expertise in this area. in London there are basically only two very well known recurrent miscarriage experts and trying to get onto their patient lists is more of a joke than you can imagine. (it turns out to be all about who you know!)
i totally agree with your idea of being tested for antiphospholid. what you might find is that if you are going private it costs the same to get a whole load of other tests at the same time. certainly at our clinic, isolating one test from a group of tests is no cheaper. at any rate you might get a few other tests for the same group of disorders (blood clotting) thrown in for the same price.

[northlondonchoclover]

Hi Kissmummy,

Thank you for the advice. In other areas of my life I am relatively rational (I think), and usually if I have a goal and a plan, and work towards something I usually succeed. So this is quite frustrating. But I will not defeated !!

Are you referring to Lesley Reagan and Raj? Would it still be impossible to see them if I go to their private clinic? I am going to first read all I can about the condition and all the tests, speak to my GP to see whether we can get them done under NHS and if not get some advice about where to go. If it is a matter of testing for a few different conditions then it is probably not necessary to try to see the best experts but just need to go to a reputable lab.

Have you heard of any alternative medicines for this condition? I am going to research herbals/acupuncture too. If it does not do any harm I don't mind trying.

Thank you for listening kissmummy
xx

[kissmummy]

hi again
yes, i'm referring to Lesley Regan and Raj Rai. Don't expect your calls to be returned by their PAs. the clinic that diagnosed my fourth miscarriage left several messages with Regan's office for me; and i left my own increasingly desperate messages. I thought she would be interested in my case since i have had four consecutive miscarriages,and am prepared to pay whatever it takes, but I never heard back. You need to know someone to get onto their private patient lists, it seems. I'm lucky enough to know people who have been treated by both Regan and Rai and eventually Rai's office got back to me after my contact kindly put in a special plea for me, but by then i'd got so upset and frustrated that my calls hadn't been returned (for weeks) that I'd gone elsewhere and i didn't think it was wise to be seeing two consultants at the same time.
I definitely don't think you're at the stage you need to be trying to see them, anyway. remember there's still a really good chance you've just had two lots of bad luck. i know it's hard to believe right now, but honestly, your next attempt will probably work.

[northlondonchoclover]

hi kissmummy

I can imagine that it must be a nightmare to get on these 2 experts' patient lists. I am skimming though Regan's book, and the last chapter talks about extra care for a group of recurrent miscarriage mothers where they visit early pregnancy units every week from the positive pregnancy test and get scanned weekly. Apparently the live birth rate is 80% (you probably already know of this). Did you try to get on this early pregnancy support program? How can one do this? My cousin is pregnant and living in another country, the standard procedure is to scan every month rather than not do anything until 12 weeks. Although logically I'm not sure why it should make a difference.

THe results for baby aspirin & heparin are encouraging. I am going to push for these test though GP, if not successful I will just pay for them privately.

[MargaritaPracatan]

hiya,

i am sorry you are going though this,

i had the same questions 2 years ago and did a huge amout of research,

i had high dose folate, baby asprin and heparin in the end and thank god it worked,

my m/c were the worst time in my life

i will try to find some links,

thinking of you xxx

[MargaritaPracatan]

here you go here

[northlondonchoclover]

Hi Margarita

Thanks for replying! 2 of the MC books arrived today and am going through them like a woman possessed

Did you go through blood tests to determine antiphospholipid syndrome before going on those medications? Did you get prescribed via NHS? I will push my GP but the NHS policy is not to test until after the 3rd MC. I cannot face going through another MC if I can help it. If necessary I will go for private tests/ prescriptions.

There seems to be a high success rate with these drugs so I have some hope at least.

[MargaritaPracatan]

i was j j in a previous life

the liverpool womens stuff is helpful, especially what you should expect to be tested for,

and the links to other threads are useful too,

where abouts (roughly) in the uk are you?