Being the father, birth certificates and mother and baby units

(83 Posts)
Samreed Tue 04-Mar-14 22:24:58

Hi. Not sure if this is the right place but I'm at a bit of loss.

My ex and I had a beautiful baby late last year. Just before the birth she ended our relationship. Obviously reasons for this are important but since we're both biased and we both look at the situation differently all you would get is my version, and that wouldn't really help. Regardless, the reasons, in my opinion, were petty and easily overcome with better communication and understanding on both sides. And sometimes we're all guilty of being bad at that.

Anyway, I was there just after the birth (she had moved to her mothers house some months before - a good 6 hour drive) and I was there for the first week and have gone back every month since then, as often as time, etc, allows.

I have been as involved as I can be, I love this little baby as much as I can, I have been supporting her financially, and I want to be a part of her life. I have another child, from a previous marriage, and have been a loving caring father to them for the last 8 years. So I'm not new to this.

My ex was diagnosed with PND very soon after the birth. Looking back on the whole pregnancy I can understand this, her behaviour was often erratic and she was very nervous (she's an older mum at 41, with a history of depression). Sadly PND was almost expected.

Recently her PND has been getting worse and worse, despite increased meds, etc. I almost speak to her mum daily now to keep up to date on her status and of course my baby's well being. Her doctors have now advised that she and the baby be taken into care at a mother and baby unit. Having looked into this, and considering it a last resort, both her mum and I agree this is best for both her and baby.

But here's the thing. She registered our baby's birth and didn't name me as the father on the birth certificate. I still don't understand why. There was no violence in the relationship, no abuse of any kind, and I was genuinely excited and keen on welcoming this little life into the world. But with the PND I haven't ever broached this, something that bothers me a great deal, for fear of making things worse.

My concerns now are obvious. When she's admitted I have no legal responsibility over the child, I won't be able to make any decisions about her care, and if heaven forbid the worst should ever happen I'd have to go through the courts to get my child back from the state.

Am I right in thinking this? What can I do? I want my ex to get better. I have no intention of taking the baby away from her, but I do want to recognised legally as the father, in case of emergency. And for the future too, I want this child to know who their father is, legally.

I have broached this with my ex's mother who brushed me off with 'don't worry it won't come to that and we'll fill in all the forms listing you as the dad' but it doesn't feel like it's enough.

Help! What do I do??

cestlavielife Tue 04-Mar-14 22:59:54

I think you have to go to court
Now
Should be fairly simple to claim paternity tho you might have to pay DNA test ?
Make sure social services and mh services are aware you want to be involved father

If mother doesn't want you around her for whatever reason then you might have to jump thru hoops whether contact centre or whatever. As small baby will need to be short and often if possible

This could be a problem if it is a six hour journey to get there . Practically speaking how often could you go ? Every week ?

cestlavielife Tue 04-Mar-14 23:00:13

Would you be able to move to be nearer your child ?

Samreed Tue 04-Mar-14 23:06:50

Thanks, but moving closer isn't possible. I'd go every weekend but I can't afford the petrol and hotel bills.

I want to keep this as amicable as possible. I know she doesn't hate me, she keeps asking if we could get back together if she was feeling better, and I don't want going to court to be something else she then has to hold against me, in her current state of mind.

fideline Tue 04-Mar-14 23:17:19

Talk to her Mum first, see how the land lies.

Make contact with any SW assigned to protect your DDS interests and also with the manager, senior nurse/what have you of the mother and baby unit. I would invest in solicitor's letters for this. Just amicable letters asserting your paternity of the baby, stating your intention to get your name added to the Birth Cert when practical and asking to be kept informed about all matters relating to baby.

Info on adding your name to BC here

fideline Tue 04-Mar-14 23:20:23

It will be best if you and ex can amicably agree to add your name to the BC. In that scenario the procedure is straightforward.

Emphasise that you want to be able to support your ex and also to play full role as a father.

The timing of this will be tricky, but there's no reason not to get the lie of the land/ ask nicely/ generally feel your way.

thegreatdivide Wed 05-Mar-14 00:12:12

In what circumstances is a registrar allowed to omit the fathers name on a birth certificate?
is it only if the mother states she does not know who the father is or if she is unsure who the father maybe?
or is it up to the mother's discretion whether to allow the fathers name on the bc?

fideline Wed 05-Mar-14 00:16:56

I'm not sure if the proposed Conservative law insisting mothers name the fathers has made it on to the statute book.

I suspect it has been dropped as unworkable. How do they compel her if she says she doesn't know, that she's too traumatised/frightened to say or if she insists he has refused to attend the registration or that his whereabouts are unknown?

They can't name unmarried men on BCs without their signatures so there are a dozen things a mother could plausibly say as to why she is registering.

PatriciaHolm Wed 05-Mar-14 00:18:00

The registrar cannot put a father on a BC if the parents aren't married and he doesn't attend the registration, which it would appear happened here. If they aren't married, he has to go along to the registration. If parents are married, the husband is assumed to be the father and so can be put on the certificate even in his absence.

fideline Wed 05-Mar-14 00:22:47

*as to why she is registering alone.

It's easy to get himself added if she agrees and still possible if she doesn't.

Sinkingfeeling Wed 05-Mar-14 00:26:49

The registrar doesn't decide whether or not the father is named on the birth certificate. If the child's parents are unmarried, the mother can decide to register on her own and the father may even be unaware that the registration has taken place. If both parents are in agreement, however, it's a straightforward process for the natural father's details to be added to the birth register at a later date, and there's no time restrictions on when this can be done. Obviously, amicable agreement is a much better solution than going down the route of a court order.

thegreatdivide Wed 05-Mar-14 00:30:26

when my 1st was born, and we went along to register the birth, the registrar asked if the mother wanted my name on the BC in front of me
I was appalled how the mother could decide if the father was to go on the BC or not just out of spite for example
agree if there is trauma or doubt it would not be completely unreasonable

in the op case, if he is the father (not wishing to cast doubt) then it is his right to be on the BC, it should not be the mother's discretion or wish
he should not have to ask nicely (I don't suggest asking not nicely)
he should not have to go through the expense of DNA test and court expenses etc...
where is the equality in this process?

cafecito Wed 05-Mar-14 00:34:38

you can get a PR order from court, or you can reach a PR agreement with her and then be added to the certificate I believe.

RockCrushesLizard Wed 05-Mar-14 00:42:06

Just as clarification, if the parents aren't married, and the father is not present at registration, the registrar legally cannot put his name on the certificate.
Not automatically malicious - the aim is to maintain integrity of the register (or else I could go in and name Elton John as the dad).

unmarried dads have to acknowledge paternity, which they can't do if they aren't there.

Had you discussed going together to the registrar OP? Because if you'd agreed and she ignored it, that's a different kettle of fish to Mum just trying to get things sorted?

thegreatdivide Wed 05-Mar-14 00:44:07

sinkingfeeling didn't see your reply before I posted
but the point remains if there is no doubt who the father is (whether married or not) suggest it should not be up to the mother's discretion whether he is placed on the BC or not
(just ignoring all exceptional circumstances say)
to maintain the equality that we all strive for smile

fideline Wed 05-Mar-14 00:45:09

Cafeito if he has her consent, they just fill in a form and go back to reg office to add him. No need for PRAs. See my link upthread

cafecito Wed 05-Mar-14 01:10:45

yes sorry I meant agreement with consent, which bestows PR

hope it goes okay

Samreed Wed 05-Mar-14 08:33:38

We had agreed that I would be put on the BC and we had agreed on a hyphenated surname for the child. She disregarded both of these agreements, and didn't tell me till after the fact.

Inshock73 Wed 05-Mar-14 09:06:23

Hi Samreed,

If your ex partner is suffering with PND I very much doubt she is seeing anything clearly at the moment. I wonder whether her reason for leaving you off the birth certificate is because she feels alone despite your support but perhaps because you're not together as a couple.

I can see from your post you are concerned about her welfare and don't want to make her any worse but I strongly suggest you seek legal advice asap. A mother has automatic parental responsibility, an unmarried father doesn't. You should seek to gain parental responsibility which will mean you are recognised as the baby's father and entitled to be kept informed of medical situations, where your baby is living, should your baby be removed from her mum for any reason etc. Also, should you have a struggle on your hands in the future to see your child a court will look favourably on you having sought parental responsibility, maintained contact and support.

There is another angle to this, is your ex partner well enough to care for the baby at the moment? I'm not suggesting you try and gain full custody but it could be mutually beneficial for you to 'share' caring for the baby over the coming months. If you have parental responsibility and your ex becomes too unwell to care for the baby you could seek temporary custody.

Finally, if you have a good relationship with your ex's mother ask her to keep you informed but make it clear you will not walk away from your child.

TheGirlFromIpanema Wed 05-Mar-14 09:13:17

thegreatdivide it isn't at the mothers discretion though at all though confused

It is to keep registers correct, or as a PP said, I could walk in and register my new born as being fathered by Robbie Williams.

For an unmarried mother,the father has to be present at registration. There are time limits remember. If OP has been visiting at weekends only it wouldn't have been possible for him to be there at the registration.

Samreed Wed 05-Mar-14 09:52:13

I was the one pushing for the registration, as he 42 day deadline loomed.. She had gone and done it without me, without telling me she was going to do it...

Xalla Wed 05-Mar-14 10:17:43

Samreed - you'd get some good advice from the Families Need Fathers forum too. They have some members who are very legally aware. They helped my DH numerous times.

Samreed Wed 05-Mar-14 10:29:30

Thanks, didn't know that existed. will check it out.

I have contacted a solicitor and got some advice, but am very weary of potentially ruining my relationship with her mother, if I push for this..

cestlavielife Wed 05-Mar-14 11:44:17

if she is unwell and claelry she is then there is no point going down route of blame etc. she is suffering pnd and going into mum and baby unit. she ahs registered so you could seek legal advice about lodging your paternity formally. it hould be fairly simple form.
if you live far away then practically it is going to be diffiuclt to have a lot of contact in these early months. how well do you get on with the grandmother?

shggg245 Wed 05-Mar-14 11:57:44

The gift is correct with advice. It is very easy to re register to include fathers details - but both parties need to attend.

Otherwise it's a court order. I'd have a word and arrange a re register try and keep it friendly, that will also give you automatic parental responsibility.

Anonymai Wed 05-Mar-14 12:53:31

I think the kindest thing you could do at the moment is not push the birth certificate thing until she is in a better place. She's obviously delicate at the moment if she has PND and is going to a mother and baby unit. The last thing she needs is more pressure from you or to be making a big decision's about birth certificates. In the long run, would waiting a few months be such a big deal to you if it means your relationship with the mother stays positive and she feels supported rather than kicked when she's down.

FruitbatAuntie Wed 05-Mar-14 13:14:09

When I registered DS2, his father was present but we were unmarried. The registrar explained very thoroughly that even though he was present, if I didn't want to add him to the birth cert then she was legally not allowed to add him. She asked me twice whether I was absolutely certain that I wanted to add him, as it would obviously give him parental responsibility therefore a joint say in any decisions regarding DS.

If a father isn't on the birth cert, he will need to go to court for a parental responsibility order. That should be simple enough if the mother concedes that he is the father and has no objection. Even if she objects, it would have to be pretty compelling evidence not to grant the order. If the mother disputes paternity a DNA test can be done to prove it (doesn't sound like any of this is an issue here though).

Hope you can get it resolved easily, OP, and I hope that your ex recovers quickly.

cestlavielife Wed 05-Mar-14 13:49:52

if the mother is seriously unwell then all the more important dad is recognized formally as the dad now. otherwise he wont get updated on the child etc. might not be allowed to visit or have access. until much further down the line.... you need legal advice as to what you need to do. ask the services involved what they need. mother might deny paternity if she very unwell.

3xcookedchips Wed 05-Mar-14 15:47:17

Anoni,

Its not a big decision the mother has any power of veto over - yes, she may be unwell but in the interests of the child the OP should go ahead and have the conversation with the GP maybe as an intermediary.

If you get the fob off again then this may give you a sign how you may be treated in the future concerning more important decisions PR or not.

Months in this world do make a difference. Delay is the enemy.

Get PR, without it you wont be able to see your child.

Anonymai Wed 05-Mar-14 16:11:46

It is a big decision to speed up the process by being amicable and making it easier for the father to add his name to the birth certificate. She has the power to make him have to do it via the courts and DNA testing. Having PR won't make it easier to see the child immediately especially if in the process of getting the PR, he alienates the mother further. He could then have the fun of having to take that through courts too. Whereas if he backs off a little now and continues to see the child as he has been doing and allows the mum time to feel better, he could come out of it with PR and a better relationship with the mother having supported her through PND and not using her time of vulnerability to hound her.

BetterDaze Wed 05-Mar-14 20:52:58

Good replies from Anonymai.

3xcookedchips Wed 05-Mar-14 23:09:55

And how long do you give in to the PND and back off? A week, a month, 3, 6, a piece of string.

Asking for PR is not a provocative request. Refusing it, is.

Anonymai Thu 06-Mar-14 02:36:41

As long as it takes. Perhaps at least until her time at the mother and baby unit has finished.

Asking for PR might not be provocative but it might be seen in that light by the mum given the other issues she has to deal with at the moment. She should be given the time to get herself better rather than have more stress thrown on top by worrying about sorting out someone else's parental rights. She might even worry (irrationally or not) that the OP would try to use those parental rights to have her child removed from her. All the extra worry caused by this won't do anyone any good at this point in time.

I don't think OP should use any of the mums actions right now as a sign of what things will be like in the future either. PND can affect a lot of things, including the way you treat other people or how you make decisions. Behaviour now is not indicative of behaviour in the future. Fobbing OP off again now is not a sign that he will always be fobbed off. It's more likely a sign that she needs him to back off a bit right now and give her time to think.

I think OP needs to consider who benefits from pushing for PR right now. The mother wouldn't benefit. The child wouldn't benefit (and may lose out on seeing the father depending on how the mother reacts). Only the father would. If OP waits, the mother benefits from having time to get better. The child benefits as a result of the mums well being. The father benefits as he keeps a good relationship with the mother and the child and also gets PR.

lostdad Thu 06-Mar-14 10:34:40

If she won't agree to you being on the birth certificate you should document your attempts to do so. Ask her to sign a C(PRA)1 form - an agreement for PR. Ask her to put her on the birth certificate.

If she refuses, court is your only avenue unfortunately. But try to avoid that. It is a last resort

A useful link for you: http://www.thecustodyminefield.com/mobile/FamilyLawMenu.html

Consider joining Families Need Fathers too. http://www.fnf.org.uk/home

We assist people on a daily basis with this sort of thing. I assist people with this sort of thing in court on a daily basis too. It isn't nice and for your child, your ex's and your sake it is better if things can be done in an amicable manner.

Without PR you have no legal responsibilities to your child and are a de factor non parent.

Contact me if you want a chat as it's a big topic!

foolonthehill Thu 06-Mar-14 12:53:55

The details of both parents can be included on the birth certificate if they do one of the following:

1)sign the birth register together (so you have toboth be there)
2)one parent completes a statutory declaration of parentage form and the other takes the signed form to register the birth
3)one parent goes to register the birth with a document from the court (for example, a court order) giving the father parental responsibility

your omission from the b'cert may just be a practical one due to circumstances.

to put the father’s name on the birth record, fill in an ‘Application for the re-registration of a child’s birth’ form and take it to the register office.

If one of you can’t be there, that person also needs to fill in a ‘Statutory declaration of acknowledgement of parentage’ form and send it to the General Register Office.

forms are here https://www.gov.uk/adding-fathers-name-birth-certificate

cestlavielife Thu 06-Mar-14 15:16:41

1. if the op is recognized as the father in all but paper eg is being included in deciisions, is listed as father on all paperwork etc; if the mother and baby unit have it on record that he is the father then sure, he can wait...

2. if however he is being totally excluded and to all intents and purposes the baby has no father then he should push to get legal and formal recognition if he wants to be involved.

all depends. if 1. then no worries to wait.
if 2. then he should pursue because no one knows how long her pnd will last .

if she is being supported by mh professionals then they can help her understand why father needs to be legally recognized. for the baby's sake. on the face of it the baby has a father who wants to be involved...

I dont see why he should wait simply because it might upset her/trigger more serious pnd - but he can work with her MH profressionals around this...get their advice. if she is so bad as to be mentally incapacitated the court may make a decision regarding the father's PR without her say so anyway.

Shallishanti Thu 06-Mar-14 15:25:04

can I just point out that places in mother and baby units are scarce, this poor woman would not be going to one unless she really, really needed it- so I think it would be most insensitive and possibly damaging to pursue this legally.

cestlavielife Thu 06-Mar-14 15:44:20

we are talking about the baby here though - who has the right to her father . and for him having chance to get to know baby as a baby is v useful. if he isnt recognized as the baby's father he could be pushed out for months.

Anonymai Thu 06-Mar-14 16:01:52

A baby's well being is closely linked to the well being of the primary carer, in this case the mother. If her PND is worsened by being pressured about PR, that also has an effect for the baby. That's why he should wait.

The MH professionals will have the mother and baby as a priority. Pushing her to recognise the father legally will not be something they would get involved in. Probably because they will also see the potential for that to cause her distress at a vulnerable time. Their focus will be on helping the mum get better and supporting her.

The baby has a right to a father but going by the OP, he sees the baby as regularly as he can and is currently in daily contact with the baby's grandmother. His concern doesn't appear to be contact but his rights to make decisions about the baby.

But anyway, think based on the current situation. What does a baby need more right now at this point in time? A healthy happy mum? Or the knowledge that OP is legally their dad? I'd vote the baby needs a healthy happy mum.

cestlavielife Thu 06-Mar-14 16:33:57

clearly baby needs a healthy happy mum.

does this rule out a dad's involvement in an infant's life ?
surely that is a broader question. if dad was on hand and around then the dad would not be cut off if mother was in m and b unit?

the baby is now three months old or two months at least - getting to a stage where it will be responding etc and showing signs of recognizing its family.

everyone would hope the mother will improve and recover. she does have apparently a history of depression.

recognizing the paternity of the child may be a force for good (she can let father take baby out etc for half hour or whatever) not evil; if we assume the op is as he says, no abuse etc.

if father lived nearer and could visit daily the situation may also be more pressing.

if father is being denied access because he isnt recognized as the father at all - on paper he is nothing - then he may wish to pursue legally - her mh people can help decide if she should be told or not about the process.

if he is getting updates and access then all good; he could wait.

but mother has to at some point recognize baby has a father. maybe better now to deal with that while she has full support of MH services....

3xcookedchips Thu 06-Mar-14 16:38:19

...and in the meantime(months) the father has no right to be consulted or notified of any welfare/medical issues concerning the child.

And if the worst comes to the worst and the baby needed to be removed from the care of the mother, he wouldn't actually be able to take over that care.

The OP has concerns about decisions about the child without his input. Those can and should be addressed without delay, especially as the mother is now considered vulnerable.

Anonymai Thu 06-Mar-14 16:48:44

According to OP, dad is involved, sees the child as much as he can afford/has time to do so, has daily updates from the grandmother. Access isn't blocked, he just can't make decisions about the child legally right now.

In none of my posts have I ruled out a fathers involvement in his infant's life or condoned someone doing that so I don't know why you are asking if a healthy happy mum means no involvement from the father. If you read my posts, you'll see I have suggested waiting until she had left the mother and baby unit before pursuing PR so that she has the chance to get well without added pressure and to maintain a positive relationship between mother and father.

The mother needs to be focussing on getting better as her first priority. That is more important to her baby at this point in time than sorting the fathers legal rights. MH services will not be concerned with his rights thankfully. They will be focused on making sure the mother has the support and space to get well and will not be helping someone add more stress to her life.

3xcookedchips Thu 06-Mar-14 17:54:29

Of course MH wont be concerned with his rights because he has none. How on earth is he going to be consulted on his childs welfare while the child is in the unit and he has no PR?

Currently, the only person who can make decisions about that child is a mentally vulnerable mother who has a history of depression.

This is in the childs interests, I guess...

Monetbyhimself Thu 06-Mar-14 18:17:25

Christ all fucking mighthy. Do any of you whipping up a frenzy of fathers rights and courts have ANY fucking clue about just how seriously ill this woman is ? When she needs to be ADMITTED to hospital. For fucks sake. Encouraging the OP to go thundering in with solicitors letters, demanding signatures and bring preoccupied with his rights is going to do nothing other than increase anxiety and make her illness much, much worse. ( Regardless of thr fact that a bloody solicitors letter won't get anywhere near her while she's so vulnerable)

OP you sound like a reasonable guy and your intentions are good. I would continue to do what you are doing now, kerp the lines of communication open with your Exs mum, offer your support practically and demonstrate empathy and understanding of just how ill she is. You really do risk mesding the whole situation up spectacularly if you insist on pushing this right now. A few weeks may make an incredible difference in terms of your Exs health status. Your baby will be well looked after and well cared for in the unit. Your existence will not be glossed over. Just slow down.

3xcookedchips Thu 06-Mar-14 18:29:42

Wow, monet I think you have brought your anxieties from your own case to this thread - and quite aggressively,

Again, you are one that fails to recognise who makes decisions with regard to the child.

I did suggest in my original post the OP use the GP(that's the grand parent, not the doctor) as a go-between

Shallishanti Thu 06-Mar-14 18:33:04

quite, Monet.
I wonder what people think is likely to need 'deciding' about this baby?
She is in the best place- with her mum- and surrounded by people whose job it is to look after both of them and get the mum to a point where she can again care for her independently. A 'mentally vulnerable mother with a history of depression'....that is not a nice way to talk about someone who is ill, hinting that they make some mad harmful choices.
Really OP, carry on visiting whenever you can and talking to DGM when you can't and staff will see you as a responsible, caring father. Start banging on about your rights in this situation and they will start to wonder (well I would anyway)

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 18:35:38

Monet The difficulty is his child is also about to move into a MH institution. I advised that the OP arrange for a solicitor to write to the _clinic or unit_ (not the ex) on his behalf politely asserting his paternity of an infant now in their care. What the hell is wrong with that? Plenty of us have advised restraint in tackling the issue with the mother. Obviously she is in the midst of a MH crisis.

However, it is exactly that crisis that means difficult decisions might have to be made about his DCs care and even residence. If he doesn't at least start a dialogue with the institution, those decisions will be made without him. The clinic might be receptive to his involvement.

It is obviously an extremely delicate situation but that isn't a reason to sit on his hands.

Monetbyhimself Thu 06-Mar-14 18:48:42

Oh stop with all the fucking dramatics about residency. If the baby can't stay with it's mum then what the fuck do you all think is going to happen ? Social services going to swoop in and put it up for adoption ? I suggest you step away ftom the Daily Mail.

Or maybe, just maybe, baby will temporarily go home to it's own familiar home in the care of grandma. Who the OP is already in communication with and who is already aware that at some poknt, the issues around thr BC need to be sorted. But who right now, is probably slightly preoccupied with the needs if her seriously ill daughter.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 19:00:13

Monet stop being an arse. No-one said any such thing. In case the mum, at any point, gets too ill to have baby remain with her throughout, it would be bloody helpful to have clarity on who the babies NOK is ahead of time.

Surely the normal course of affairs would be for the dad to be NOK, there's certainly no reason that we know of to consider him unsuitable. Starting a dialogue with the clinic doesn't imperil anyone's health.

I told him to feel his way slowly. Other posters said similar. You are determined to get your knickers in a twist and invent remarks that haven't been made.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 19:00:46

*baby's NOK is.....

Monetbyhimself Thu 06-Mar-14 19:03:47

Fideline-do you seriously think that mum and grandma won't be made aware of a solicitors letter received ? Because that shows a startling lack of insight into the workings of a multi disciplinary patient centered model of care.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 19:06:51

It was suggested that he liaise with the GM and offer support to his ex. We don't know how things will develop. Telling a parent to back away from their parental role and forget their parental responsibilities is a bit much to ask just at the point the baby most needs two parents.

Monetbyhimself Thu 06-Mar-14 19:08:40

Fideline I suggest you read 3cookedchips comments about decisions needing to be made about care if the child needs to be removed from it's mother.
And if you're going to try and present yourself ad having a clue, perhaps a little research on the legal standing of an 'NOK' would be useful.

anothernumberone Thu 06-Mar-14 19:13:27

The bigger picture here is that the baby is going to be better off with a dedicated father and a well mother. The dad box is ticked so the priority now has to be getting the mother well. I think adding additional stress is not a good idea. Keep involved as you are doing and try to support the mum and in time work on the bc.

3xcookedchips Thu 06-Mar-14 19:14:01

Monet: I think you're on your own crusade.

Welfare of the child is paramount. You would know this, right?

Monetbyhimself Thu 06-Mar-14 19:28:37

Absolutely 3cooked. Please explain how stressing and distressing a seriously ill mum further by sending solicitors letters is going to contribute positively to the welfare if the baby.

Or does the gentle, wait and support approach not quite fit with your own crusade values ? Much better to stir the OP up and create distress and angst where, going by how he's managed things so far, absolutely none is required.

3xcookedchips Thu 06-Mar-14 19:34:20

I've not suggested getting solicitors involved, or have you not read this thread.

One can only wait so long and it's not as long as it takes.

You do need to calm down though.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 19:41:20

You know perfectly well what I mean by NOK. We don't know by what mechanism the whole thing would be decided if the Dad remains without PR. That's the bloomin point

Monetbyhimself Thu 06-Mar-14 19:41:40

The first response to the OP told him to go to court. The second told him to start sending solicitors letters. Can you highlight the posts where you contradicted that advice ?

'Awaits pat on the head from 3cookedchipsonshoulder to go with patronising calm down dear approach' hmm

Monetbyhimself Thu 06-Mar-14 19:44:04

No dear. What DO you mean by NOK ? What exactly IS a NOK ? What legal standing does it have ? Please do enlighten us ?

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 19:49:18

I didn't contradict anyone except cafe who as a former solicitor had clearly misread the OP to suggest a PRA was necessary to add natural dad to a birth cert (with agreement from mum).

We still don't know that the mother's intent was to exclude. it may have been circumstance or her illness that made her go alone for ease. She might not have realised dad needed to attend until registrar explained. She may have been close to the deadline and had great difficulty organising/motivating herself to get there. She could be eager to help him obtain PR in the current circs. We don't actually know she is experiencing psychosis.

I find these threads don't work too well when one gobby person rocks up and starts shouting everyone down.

Far better that the OP gets to choose from the array of opinion offered.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 19:52:19

You just want to argue. I didn't claim NOK had a legal meaning. It's a widely understood shorthand. Birth parent with PR would be in pole position for temp residency should mum and dc be temporarily parted. You know that.

Stop hijacking the thread of OP who is experiencing such challenging circs.

3xcookedchips Thu 06-Mar-14 19:52:41

Monet does have a tendency to get aggressive when one doesn't fit in with her world view.

I think she enjoys the conflict as reflected on a thread where she was the OP.

Monetbyhimself Thu 06-Mar-14 19:54:21

Lol at 3cooked. Your batman suit is due to be picked up from the dry cleaners. Din't you have a tall building to climb ?

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 19:57:07

I'm no FFJ campaigner but if an apparently competent mother was told to back off and assume her MIL will be in line to take day to day care and control of HER children, because mother's partner (the father) was extremely ill, all bloody hell would break loose.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 19:58:06

ex MIL

Anonymai Thu 06-Mar-14 19:59:03

Birth parent with PR wouldn't necessarily be in pole position for temporary residency. They'd look at the child's life, bonds with people and family close by too. If the baby sees grandma every day and only sees dad once a month or so, they'd look at grandma having baby. Especially to continue contact between baby and mum.

Doasbedoneby Thu 06-Mar-14 19:59:53

He's not on the birth certificate, he doesn't have PR.

At the moment he's no one.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 20:01:19

We know that Doas that's the point, he would be in stronger position with it.

Monetbyhimself Thu 06-Mar-14 20:02:48

No Fideline . I want people to stop bandying about terms which suggest that hey actually KNOW whatvthey're talking about. You and many others on this thread cleatly have NO clue about PND but that doesn't stop you from jumping on the MRA bandwagon.

OP I wish you thr best. I hope that your Ex makes a full recovery in time and that with the support of your friends and family you can build a really successful co parenting relationship.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 20:03:42

Anon It would likely need settling in court, in any case. So why would he not anticipate that eventuality now and consider his options for obtaining PR?

We don't know that she deliberately excluded him from the registration with intent to prevent him obtaining PR. A lot is being assumed.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 20:04:49

MRA bandwagon. Ludicrous thing to say.

He is the father as far as we know. Not some random reverse-cuckoo.

Monetbyhimself Thu 06-Mar-14 20:05:31

There you go Fideline. You've bought into the hysteria about the baby being taken away from it's mum. Surprise me. Tell me what you don't know about the ethos and philosophy of mother and baby units.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 20:08:03

Bought in to hysteria? Hardly.

I was suggesting calm considered action to ensure involvement of both parents with sounding out the baby's grandmother as first step.

Only one hysteric on this thread.

Anonymai Thu 06-Mar-14 20:10:36

I'm making the point that PR isn't going to make him magically have any automatic rights to have the baby should the worst happen as he put so nicely in his OP. He could still have a fight in court exactly the same as the fight he would have without PR. So why potentially make this woman's illness worse by hounding her about PR now if it will have no benefit for the thing he is worried about? I'm obviously not saying he shouldn't consider his options otherwise I wouldn't have tried to offer advice on his options. I'm just saying that the gentle approach might be better in this scenario.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 20:16:10

Nothing would be automatic and we don't know he'd have to hound if he even decided to raise the issue. Full all we know the mother was taken aback that she couldn't unilaterally name dad on the BC and has discussed with her mother her intent to recify it later.

Besides, it would be bloody odd to discover his child has been admitted to a medical facility with its mother and NOT mention to the management that he is the baby's father. What's he supposed to do shrug and go about his day?

I think I was advocating a pretty gentle approach too.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 20:16:29

*For all we know....

Anonymai Thu 06-Mar-14 20:21:02

I know nothing is automatic. I think I just said that when I explained they would look at existing family as well etc confused. The comments about hounding are based on conversation further up thread where people were suggesting courts and letters rather than a softer approach. This thread is going a bit doolally now. It's like people don't have a basic level of comprehension.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 20:23:02

Woah. I had posted suggesting pretty moderate course. Monet turned up all beetroot coloured and then turned on me when I disagreed with her.

Monetbyhimself Thu 06-Mar-14 20:51:17

Not going to share your extensive knowledge and experience of mother and baby units then Fid? Still waiting on your in depth analysis on the role of a 'NOK' and their role on legal/medical decision making.

fideline Thu 06-Mar-14 21:00:19

Absolutely Monet. Because every time one of us fills in the 'NOK' space on a hospital admission form, we aware it is information requested so that medical doctors can make instant and binding family law judgements if necessary hmm That's why I mentioned the concept of NOK, oh yes.

Think OP's thread has been derailed enough now, don't you?

3xcookedchips Thu 06-Mar-14 21:00:43

Don't worry about Monet, she's an angry and needs a target, it's not personal.

I think the OP has enough food for thought.

Monetbyhimself Thu 06-Mar-14 21:25:48

Very clear and informative information Fiideline. You are clearly an expert in this field. Or maybe not.

Oh 3cooked will you EVER tire of trawling this board looking to set the wimmin straight ? We know you're all about da menz. It's tiresome, it's usually innapropriate and in yet another thread it's dangerous. But hey, who cares if a vulnerable woman is further distressed and traumatised as long as the MRAs get to bang their drum.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now