How To Avoid Coming Across As Aggressive

(55 Posts)
NewDadTrying Sat 16-Feb-13 07:15:04

Without going into too many specifics, I am a new Dad (chuffed beyond words on that score!), unfortunately circumstances with my ex are not ideal. I have Parental Rights, and she is breastfeeding which is of course brilliant. However this leaves visiting somewhat tricky. We have managed to sidestep any outright hostility so far, but looks like we might headed for a confrontation.

I am reminded of advice given to me by my Solicitor who explained she will be feeling particularly vulnerable the first year, and I should be wary of doing anything that comes off as confrontational. Whilst we both have good reason to be aggrieved at the other, it is my hope we can move past it for our child's sake.

Perhaps justifiably she has been been sniping at me regularly since the birth, which to be honest was like water off a ducks back as I got to see my child, and was worth weathering. Unfortunately she has cottoned onto the fact that by making it increasingly hard to see our baby gets to me. It tears me up a great deal that I am not involved as much as I would wish to be. As I try to be more and more flexible over arranging visits, the less communication I receive. as well as finding nobody home at prearranged times.

Upon suggesting mediation I was accused of coming on too strong, and it seems I have a Hobson's choice between stressing out the mother, or just not getting to see the baby at all. I am usually pretty good at communication and diplomacy, but I am aware there are subtle and not so subtle differences in the way men and women communicate. So what I would like to ask is what is the best way to propose mediation, without her feeling like she is losing control of the situation? (She is someone who has to be in control, and by example of a child she has by a previous marriage involves the Dad only infrequently when it suits her, and I wish to be involved with our child a lot more than he has gotten to have been)

Letsmakecookies Sat 16-Feb-13 08:46:40

Go to your solicitor and ask their advice and take it. tbh it sounds a little like they have told you to back off a bit, and you are looking for another way around that. I have the utmost sympathy for you, however, how old is the baby even, why did things not work out between you? You also need to rethink how you feel about your baby's mother, as that is exactly what she is, and you come across as scathing and hostile, which if she is picking up on would make her snipy especially if she has a breastfed infant to cope with.

Piecesofmyheart Sat 16-Feb-13 10:30:03

How old is the baby ?

NewDadTrying Sat 16-Feb-13 21:01:00

He's only a few months old, and we didn't work out primarily over the conception. We had been together just under a year, and a few months before we split I had voiced concerns over our long term viability primarily over her ignoring my feelings on important matters, and we needed to communicate better and make decisions as a couple. Then a month and a half after that exchange she went off the pill without keeping me appraised, and on the date of conception I had enquired was the birth control situation well in hand and was point blank lied to that it was, so I ended things with her.

Feelings of hostility are an understatement, but I have recieved counselling (I have been getting this for several years, not to treat any underlying condition, but simply because I think it is a positive thing to have in life to work through issues wisely) and am working to get past those feelings, and irrespective of the rights and wrongs of this our child has to be the priority here. I do my level best to avoid any criticisms of her as I have an extensive network of family and friends to turn to who are all it has to be said very supportive of me.

I feel that any conflict between us should be resolved as amicably as possible as this is what my son will observe as he grows up, and I don't want to be a bad example for him, but neither do I want him growing up unable to assert himself in a firm but respectable manner (particularly in how he treats women). Having grown up in a single parent household myself (my mother was an absolute star, in remarkably difficult circumstances for which I will always be eternally grateful), I have a small idea of the difficulties she may potentially face, and I don't want to be an aggregate negative presence in her life that makes things worse or harder, but neither do I want him to grow up without a Dad involved in as much of his life as possible, as happened to me.

I would of course be willing (and would dearly love) to have him full time, and I am currently working to arrange my life in such a way that should such be neccessary my personal circumstances would not be an obstacle. However I would like to avoid the ramifications to him of becoming the battleground of a conflict between his mum and I. I take heart in the fact that he's healthy, and he won't remember any of these initial upsets, and hope that we can make his life a good one, and free from all the current negativity.

Piemother Sat 16-Feb-13 22:29:01

Full time???? Are you going for residency?
Is this the same poster with the younger gf who was a care leaver?

Piecesofmyheart Sat 16-Feb-13 22:32:26

'a few months old' - So 3 months. 12 weeks. 84 days. Breastfed and probably sleeping for at most, a few hours at a time ?

Go back to your solicitor again and ask them to repeat their advice to you to to back off a little.

'I would of course be willing (and would dearly love) to have him full time' do you REALLY feel like that ? shock

ivykaty44 Sat 16-Feb-13 22:39:50

I have benn a single mum since dd2 was 3/9 and had nightmares when pg her father would try to take her away, if he had told me when awake he wanted her full time I may well have gone into melt down, so can understand why possibly you are being asked to back off

GinAndT0nic Sat 16-Feb-13 22:43:33

"I would of course be willing (and would dearly love) to have him full time'.

I can imagine she is terrified of you. You say you are arranging your life so that you would be in a position to take your son full time! shock

I don't know if you can comprehend how terrifying that would be for a new mother who has carried a baby for nine months, delivered it only four months ago, breast feeding now.... to think that there is a person who might try to take her child, and if you're not together she will see it like that.

You see on one level very self-aware, and very articulate. But have you tried to understand this from her perspective. I think for the sake of the long term you need to acknowledge that having a baby is more all-encompassing for a new mother, hormonally, physically, practically!

my own x has made life difficult for himself at every cross roads by not seeing things from my perspective. he showed me no respect so i left him. This is my story not yours but if he could have stepped into my shoes at any point he would have got more back.

So, I would suggest you reassure your X that you will not go for full residency. I think you will get MORE by reassuring her that you want less. You catch more flies iwth honey and that is something that my x has not figured out yet. every now and then i think 'i'll send him a copy of the school report, and then he'll get a solicitor to write a letter to the principle' and I think ofgs leave us alone you bully!

GinAndT0nic Sat 16-Feb-13 22:47:25

ps,, you are very self-aware but you have zero awareness of how terrifying this must be for your x.

Piemother Sat 16-Feb-13 22:49:44

I find the posts a bit odd. Who really goes for counselling for no reason? They read as if they have been written for show. That's my take on it

GinAndT0nic Sat 16-Feb-13 22:53:42

And feel FREE to ignore me now, but I think one of the things you could do that would pave the way to a better relationship with your son is to tell his mother that you take 50% of the responsibility for his conception. Any of that talk 'you led me to believe you were on the pill'! no! as judge judy would say! no. tssss. stop. don't you go there. The child has been born. You put your penis into his mother's vagina without a condom on. The end. Do not ever repeat your bleating about who is to 'blame' for his conception.

You can obviously react to this with an indignatn "but I..." or "that's not fair because..." but what is your goal here? to be right? to be the most aggreived? or the one with the most legitimate right ot be aggrieved?

the path to a better relationship with your son is through a better relationship with is mother, and because of that I advise you to OWN 50% of the responsiility for his conception.

there was something else too.. mmm. let me think

GinAndT0nic Sat 16-Feb-13 22:58:07

oh yes. i remember now. You basically ended it with her while she was pregnant. is that right? but you felt like you had the moral highground because she wasn't honest with you or because you 100% blame her for something that is 50% her responsibilty.

Mate, you dumped her when she was pregnatn. Things are BOUND to be problematic and I think it's naive in the extreme to hope for some sort of brady bunch - waltons set up THIS early. You need to prove to her that you will not try to control her and manipulate her. I find it really sad that you've dragged in lawyers over a four month old.

My sympathies are with your x I'm afraid.

NewDadTrying Sat 16-Feb-13 23:54:02

Yes I would dearly love to have him, if it worked out that way. Bottom line is when I am away from him it's like there is this huge void in me.

Yes I wrote this for show, this situation in parts utterly terrifies me and I know there is a danger that if I do not order my thoughts properly and effectively I will misscommunicate something or come off as utterly irrational, as believe me there is that element to all this for me, but I am working on it.

Ok I said I didn't want to go into this, but it seems to be a sticking point. OF COURSE I take full responsibility for having unprotected sex, I made the mistake of trusting the wrong person (and for the record this situation hurts much more than when I had been cheated on in the past), and it turned around and bit me in the ass. Nothing I can do about it now. Obviously that left me feeling betrayed, lied to and all the rest of it, but whatever else you might say I have the right to my emotions I will not apologise for that. I do however accept that if those feelings cause me to act in an innappropriate manner I will have to account for them. In the long term I'll integrate the experience and move on with my emotional life wiser for the experience. I will also endeavor to ensure that what I do feel does not jeapordize my child in any way. I am perfectly capable of behaving calmly and rationally.

I take the advice about backing off, and I've heard from those who've been in this situation which is what I was looking for. I implicitly told her when we went for the first scan, I am not interested in taking the child away from her. My comments are simply referencing what I would like not what will neccessarily happen. Also because her lifestyle has never been settled, there may come a time when she's got her eyes on the next baby/man in her life she wants, that much like her first child she'll be looking for places to pass our son off to so she can do the things important to her. I however want to make it as easy as possible to be the best possible choice for her.

Yes she's mightly pissed off at me for leaving her, and she has every right to be it was not my finest hour. I just happen to believe, and still do that it would not be in our son's best interest to be raised in a household of bickering adults, who would inevitably end up breaking up. I am really not interested in "moral highgrounds", being "in the right" or any of that nonsense. Real Life is often a lot more complicated than that, I was looking for advice and I got it I need to be more empathic towards her, and I see that was where I was going wrong. I obviously don't want to empathise with someone I feel betrayed by, and that was where the block was coming from, but I accept I need to be and do whatever my son needs. So thank you to the people who considered my situation with empathy and compassion.

What you have to remember is that you are the least important person in this situation at present. You need to put her feelings and the baby's wellbeing ahead of your own wishes. A lot of men find it almost impossible to put themselves last, but if you can manage it, you will be on the way to building a better co-parent relationship with your child's mother.

HerrenaHarridan Sun 17-Feb-13 00:10:29

Ffs ladies. You are making some very valid points in an overly aggressive way.

Ok op firstly you need to let go of the whole lied to you about birth control. While I also think that the last moment you made a choice about having a baby was when you DIDN'T put a condom on.
That is the past it doesn't matter shit baby is here. For one reason and another you and the mother are not going to be a couple.
Your question in the op is how do I handle her so I will focus on answering that.
Gentle, new babies belong to their mother end of. You can see it in her company only for at least the first six months.
While in her company do not critisise or pass comment on anything.
Bring stuff for the baby, nappies, clothes etc but also stuff for her, I would recommend a tube a lansinoh cream as this shows support for breast feeding and an interest in her welfare, nice fruit also a good bet.
Before you get there ask if she needs anything picked up, it can be a real challenge getting out the house with a tiny baby
DO NOT constantly offer to take the baby out, do offer to watch it while she has a bath.
Do get a home ready for the baby with you. DO NOT expect it to get any use until the child is at least 3

When baby starts eating solids find a local dads group and approach her about taking it there. Also bookbug at your local library is only on for half hour so you could ask her if you could all go but she could use the computers and you can do the baby stuff.
It's great that you want to be involved. What you need to understand at this stage is that it's about familiarisation, so when the baby is old enough to be away from its mother you are someone it knows.
I'm sorry op, this is not the ideal picture you may have liked to raise your first child in but you have to work with what you've got

GinAndT0nic Sun 17-Feb-13 00:14:15

I wasn't aggressive HerrenaHarridan.

NewDadTrying Sun 17-Feb-13 00:29:46

Thanks Harridan, I was well aware coming to a place like that what sort of reaction I was in danger of getting here, but it also seemed like the best place to get the information I needed. I've been doing some of the things you have already mentioned already, but you have suggested several that have not occured to me so thanks. Although to be honest my exes first suggestion was I that I take the baby away for several hours every week starting from birth which I diplomatically bartered down to me visiting him at her place, as I did not want to disrupt him in the early stages.

My initial worry was that the more reasonable and supportive I try to be the more pissed off she seems to get, until as I mentioned she has worked out that by making it hard for me to see him DOES get to me. I remember specifically stating to her that I do not want her to get the impression that I feel entitled to drop round whenever I want, as I understand and respect that her place is her space. I had hoped that considering the birth was a real pain, (and I mean more than usual the labor lasted several days, and there were some further complications) she had accepted my help without complaint. Now I suspect she is getting stronger and more independant again some of the old greivances are coming back to the surface.

The primary reason for me coming here is to get sound advice on how I should and should not behave, so sincerely thank you for taking the time.

NewDadTrying Sun 17-Feb-13 00:31:25

Oh and he's healthy and thriving so I do count myself lucky that he's here, I am well aware there are people out there who have to deal with much worse.

NewDadTrying Sun 17-Feb-13 00:33:49

Oh and I have not "dragged in lawyers" at all, I have simply been and consulted with my solicitor over what my position is, and what to do. Which to me is just common sense practice.

Letsmakecookies Sun 17-Feb-13 08:59:02

I think Herrena says some very sensible things, listen to her. Of course consulting a lawyer is a good idea, but listen to them.

I think the best thing you can do is write on a poster on a wall, that the most important person in all of this is your child, second his mother (as he is dependent on her while he is young whether you like it or not), third you.

If you are gentle and supportive and somewhat in the background for now, you will have a role in your child's life as your DC gets bigger and more independent, as long as you put the effort/interest in (and that is not necessarily suggesting she attend mediation with a breastfed 3 month old baby). Also bear in mind if you upset her you will be upsetting your child by default. Think about your actions/words and who you are trying to benefit.

Piecesofmyheart Sun 17-Feb-13 09:12:55

Your attitude to your Ex is disturbing. All this talk about her having a traumatic birth making her less able to complain about your behaviour is chilling. You don't like the fact that she is now stronger and can stand up to you ?

But yes. Take her a tube of nipple cream and a few kiwi fruit and everything will be fine.

Letsmakecookies Sun 17-Feb-13 09:26:48

Actually the nipple cream but made me laugh, perhaps a bit too personal a gift as I had images in my mind of it being hurled across a room back at the OP.

GinAndT0nic Sun 17-Feb-13 09:33:03

NewDadTrying, You say "I was well aware coming to a place like that what sort of reaction I was in danger of getting here, but it also seemed like the best place to get the information I needed."

So, you were braced for a backlash, I think you've been lucky. I am trying to help you. I think your biggest challenge is that you need a new perspective on this.

You also say "I've been doing some of the things you have already mentioned already, but you have suggested several that have not occured to me so thanks. Although to be honest my exes first suggestion was I that I take the baby away for several hours every week starting from birth which I diplomatically bartered down to me visiting him at her place, as I did not want to disrupt him in the early stages."

How about you don't make suggestions? How about you ask her what she needs from you at this point?

You also say "The more reasonable and supportive I try to be the more pissed off she seems to get"

Reasonableis highly subjective. Your interpretation of reasonable is not the definition of reasonable and it's important to remember that if you want to avoid making things worse.*

You also say "Now I suspect she is getting stronger and more independant again some of the old greivances are coming back to the surface."

Ok, there's a massive clue for you here. Think about what you have done that was not decent behaviour and apologise for it. Apologise for not taking 50% per cent responsibility for your son's conception. TELL your x you were wrong to try and apportion blame and tell her that you regret doing that because it caused so much bad feeling. Take responsibility for that knee-jerk reaction on your part causing so much bad feeling. But, don't do it until you have accepted that you are 50% responsibile for your son's conception and that apportioning blame was BOUND to cause massive hurt and upset. OWN it. Apologise for it.

I am glad to hear you haven't sent solicitors letters to her house. that is what I thought. I will give you a headsup here, the insight you're looking for, the insight into The Female Mind. I can forgive my x for the things he did 5-12 years ago, but I find it harder to overlook the fact that he won't acknowledge his own very poor behaviour. Because that means it's not just relationship baggage, it's an ongoing lack of self-awareness and lack of common decency on his part. ONGOING. The past is the past. But refusal to acknowledge, own and apologise for the past makes it a current issue with regard to shared children. So, there you go, you may think I've been harsh, but listen to me. If you want a relationship with your son, repeat this like a mantra "the key to a better relationship with my son is through a better relationship with his mother, and I will apologise for my part in the bad feeling and I will respect HER wishes". Say it 100 times a day.

HerrenaHarridan Sun 17-Feb-13 09:46:12

Gin yes your post was one of the less aggressive. Although deeply critical which is fair enough.

You have to bear in mind that posting in the lone parents section means you are speaking to people who have every reason to be suspicious of you.
I'm sure every one of our exes would tell you we are psycho bitches who won't let them see enough of their kids and they'd take them If they could. I know mine has, he said to to my mum shock

New dad, take whatever she offers!
Never rise to it if you feel she is goading you and do your utmost to make life easier for her even if it is not reciprocated for a while.
Bear in mind this is not an 18 year stretch, think weddings, graduation, grandchildren. This woman is part of your family now.

I know you have lots of new dad energy and no where to channel it.
I suggest you keep a diary, a log of contact not with a view to going to court but with a view to showing your son one day that you did your best and contributed as much as you could.
One day it may help him through the same situation.
As cookie said you are the least important factor in this right now, your real role on your sons life comes later.

HerrenaHarridan Sun 17-Feb-13 10:13:55

It's interesting the range of options one pp said you should apologise for previous behaviour. It may really help and is definitely worth thinking about what you have done and said that you should apologise for.
I didn't even occur to me, I have no interest in an apology from ex it would make me feel a grand total of nothing but it may make a huge difference in drawing a line under the past.
Yy to asking for suggestions from her.

Pieces, I know people often skim read but I don't think your synopsis of what I said was very accurate.
Of course his attitude to his ex isn't great. It's a horrible position for all, nasty break up with a baby at the centre, he will be resenting that he can't be bonding with his son. He didn't say I'm fighting for full custody ( or I'd be a lot more vociferous) he said he wants to have a home his son can go to and would love to take him. If the situation were reversed and my ex had my dd my language would be a lot stronger.

Nipple cream, personal? Not how I viewed it but I see where your coming from. It costs a £10 a tube and is an absolute essential. Also shows concern for her well being and support of her decision to breastfeed. Although I wouldn't make a song and dance of it just put it in a carrier bag with some other essentials you picked up and leave her to go through it at her leisure

HerrenaHarridan Sun 17-Feb-13 10:15:26

Options should read opinions bloody idiot phone

GinAndT0nic Sun 17-Feb-13 10:18:08

HH, yeah, my own x feels so much self-pity, he treated me like crap for years and I left him and now, all he can SEE is that I left him on a whim. So, an entirely different set of circumstances, but I do recognise some similarity in the mindset between my x and this guy. Sorry Newdad! But honestly, I am trying to help you. If there's a right way and a wrong way to do this, why not do it the right way????

Also, NewDad is very good at expressing himself, and can perfectly identify how he was wronged in the past, and perfectly articulate his own concerns for the future. I recognise that same character attribute in my x. He is aware of his own fears and needs and is very articulate. I can see that his x might feel overwhelmed by the constant 'reasoning' from her x. Because as I said, reason is subjective .

I'm giving NewDad the advice that I wish somebody had given my x, and that I wish he had listened to. But he had a forcefield of delusion that nobody could /can penetrate.

Changing a perspective doesn't happen overnight, so Newdad, I'm not joking when I say repeat this fifty times a day

"the key to a better relationship with my son is through a better relationship with his mother, and I will acknowledge my own failings for the bad feeling and I will respect her wishes". If you can mean this, then you will be on the right path to what you want.

HerrenaHarridan Sun 17-Feb-13 15:18:48

Gin, good point you've got me thinking

New dad your very clear on what she has done to wrong you. Have a think and talk to us about where you went wrong.
Not before dc because that universe doesn't exist any more. I mean during pregnancy and these first few months.

What have you said that didn't get taken well ( however well intentioned)

You are still cradling a lot of anger over this and you clearly have quite a low opinion of you ex because of this.
Most likely this is coming across.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you it is ok to lie about contraception, it isn't end of. I can totally understand why you would be really mad at her for that.
You need to try and come to terms with it and understanding why may help you relations with her
Tell me honestly why you think she wanted to have a baby.

NewDadTrying Sun 17-Feb-13 17:54:09

I appreciate given the purpose of this website, my presence here (both by being new, and the fact I am man) means I must be mindful of the ettiquette, and I hope I have not come on too strong. If I have I apologise, and by all means pull me up if I need to moderate my behaviour. I simply ask for your pardon, as I'm trying to navigate this particularly rough time of my life.

Yes I do have emotional baggage in this, and am trying to behave in the best possible way. Yes it was just as much my responsibility as to wether or not to wear a condom or not, and I have never disputed this with her. The bad feelings simply come from being lied to, which is something just a cursorary look around here tells me many have experience of. I am working hard on overcoming and moving on from.

When we split, I did not rage, I did not accuse (and for the record I did not advocate a termination at any stage, her own father was advocating this at one point, and my response to her was that I was willing to support whichever choice she made and that whilst my preference was that she keep him, I did not want her to feel pressured either one way or the other from me, and I told her as much).

I have been supportive of her subsequent relationships (I think she is on her 4th or 5th since we dated), and her current bloke appears to be an absolute star. I won't lie it is obviously a little upsetting that he gets to see my son more than I do, and to do all of things I would dearly love to do, but I keep telling myself over and over that what is good for him is what is paramount. I've not considered at any stage going for custody, because she has already produced a wonderful daughter who is happy (and I bonded with a great deal when her mother and I dated, and I have expressed willingness to babysit her when I have my son if it makes things easier, and everyone is happy with it), no drugs, and she rarely drinks so no concern there.

I don't want to leverage control, and I am saddened that some have felt my actions have been "chilling". I simply want to assert my son's right to have a meaningful relationship with me. I am a very child orientated person, and I recognise that our son's best chance in life involves a good relationship and love from us both.

I will take on board what has been said, I have absolutely no objection to owning my mistakes (of which there are many), and apologising for them. However I do find it hard to accept that in her mind she has not put a foot wrong in any of this, and every iota of fault here lies with me. In fact she believes it is my fault that by not being 100% behind her on wanting to have a child right now it is my fault she had to lie to me about it. I would welcome any and all advice on how to negotiate and meet her halfway on this.

Letsmakecookies Sun 17-Feb-13 18:31:34

There is nothing wrong with making mistakes as long as you accept responsibility and learn from them, and you will be a great dad with a lot to give if you do this as indeed you say you do. And I accept there is nothing more frustrating than other people not accepting fault in themselves (but there is no point trying to get the other person to realise this).

I think if you focus more on I simply want to assert my son's right to have a meaningful relationship with me. I am a very child orientated person, and I recognise that our son's best chance in life involves a good relationship and love from us both, and learn to let go of the past totally (as you can't change things anyway), that will be a good thing for your child. I think be there in its life but bide your time a little, until the child is older, weaned and more independent (possibly even pre/school aged), and accept that until then you will play a smaller role in its life. You have many years of childhood and life ahead of you, and you will become more important as the child grows. I suspect the mother will be more comfortable for you to have the child then too and play a big part.

It is not acceptable for her not to be there at pre-arranged times. Has she explained why this is, have you turned up late, or pressured her into the arrangements? I think you need to calmly and briefly state how you were sad to miss seeing your child, and wait until next time, make sure you turn up on bang on time. And if it does continue suggest that perhaps if there is a communication issue that you might try joint counselling? Or ask her gently why she wasn't in? It is so hard to give advice as so much of the puzzle is missing and obviously her 'side' is not explained. But perhaps she is unable to calmly as an adult do that with you too, and that you need a neutral joint counsellor to help you both learn to let go and communicate. Mediation might seem too "I want custody" as a starting point?

GinAndT0nic Sun 17-Feb-13 18:59:56

Is she really on her fourh or fifth relationship since you 'dated'. Was it a bit more serious than just dating? or, if she heard you say that the two of you dated, would she feel that you were minimising the importance of the relationship at the time, and de-valuing her to somebody you merely dated.

Also, if she has had four or five relationships whilst pregnant and breastfeeding, she is superhuman. Are you certain of this? or are these men friends of her brothers, husbands of her friends? It's a common tactic, painting the x as promiscuous, and your solicitor when you speak to him/her again will caution you against that as it is a very old chesnut.

Once again, your post is words, words, words, words. Dealing with you would exhaust me. You think if you just phrase it differently this time we will suddenly 'get' it properly, see it clearly, sympathise more...

Maybe she would be better off formalising everything through the courts? Access and maintenance. Yes, I think that if I were in her shoes I would hand it over to a judge to avoid getting into long, long, long conversations over it all.

GinAndT0nic Sun 17-Feb-13 19:10:02

ps, re your last paragraph, what is it you want her to meet you half way with? apportioning the blame as you see fit? I understand that there are things you find hard to accept and things that don't seem fair, but you have to digest those on your own and not thrash them out. My advice is to wait and after a certain period of time has passed you will no longer care that I can promise you, it's like the one guarantee I can give you.

But in the meantime you have to allow her to have her opinion of you, just as you clearly have strong views on her. She is not obligated to view you and the relationship in the same way that you view yourself and the relationship so any attempt to get on the same page there is utterly futile, and I'm telling you this as somebody who tried to get her x to acknowledge that he was wrong to verbally/emotionally and financially abuse me. So don't waste your time trying to divvy out the blame. That won't achieve anything.

Once again, like a broken record I'm telling you to look in to the mirror and remind yourself that the route to a better relationship with your son is through a good, peaceful, respectful relationship with his mother. If you prioritise above that, getting your x to 'buy' your interpretation of what went wrong and why, then that will be bully for you but it will be at the expense of your relationship with your son.

Piecesofmyheart Sun 17-Feb-13 19:15:26

'I will take on board what has been said, I have absolutely no objection to owning my mistakes (of which there are many)'

Come on then OP. What exactly ARE these mistakes ?

zookeeper Sun 17-Feb-13 19:34:51

I lost patience with you on the "fourth or fifth" line. I bet you know exactly how many relationships she has had . You sound very controlling to me.

Your child is very young; you need to back off and be much more patient for now

NewDadTrying Sun 17-Feb-13 19:46:13

I would love to go into more detail here, but I do not know if my ex is a member here at all. I am also concerned that baring my soul here flaws and all will get me digitally eviscerated, as I'm not lying about my ex's behaviour, and you can all take it as read that my own shortcomings are many and varied.

However the balance of some opinions seems to be that because she is a mother her actions are almost by default beyond reproach, or must be forgiven, moved beyond etc etc (which again for the record is a place I am really trying reach emotionally within myself so that it doesn't colour anything for our child). Yet any morsel of my own mistakes will be seized upon as validation for earler assumptions. I accept given the purpose of these boards it would be daft in the extreme not to get that reaction from some.

I will admit that during the pregnancy I became atrocious at communication. To the point that even when my ex was experiencing crisis I was not someone she felt she could turn to for support. That's on me, and I know if I had approached things differently a great deal of hardship on her part could have been avoided. I feel terrible about that, I will apologise to her for it, when the opportunity presents itself to do so genuinely I will.

As to mediation I only want to use it at this stage to create a legal agreement between her and I to ensure that I get to see him at least once a week (although ideally I would love to see him as often as she will allow). I'm also not talking about taking him away from anywhere, I am happy to visist him at her place when convieniant.

I have offered to bring round anything she needs, been where I will say I will be, and made it explicitly clear I am happy to be flexible to her schedule, and that even if she ends up not feeling comfortable with a visit to just let me know if it becomes inconveniant. I've weathered her scathing remarks and criticisms without complaint, because I have been able to see my son. When I hold him or change him, or comfort him when he cries, all of that negative stuff just ebbs away and becomes like almost nothing. However I am just finding all this particularly difficult at the moment, as without him I just feel like a tiny boat on a massive ocean, and just wish the waves would just swallow me up and take all this away.

babyhammock Sun 17-Feb-13 19:49:16

Sorry but you sound totally self absorbed.
And seriously on her 4th or 5th relationship with a three month old baby confused
You've been nothing but disparaging about her even to the point of saying in an earlier post that you'd be happy to take the baby if she got fed up with it which you implied was not that unlikely.
That's an awful thing to say and utterly ridiculous especially as she has another very loved child.
Also all this grizzling about her lying about the contraception and how angry you still are about it, well if you are as 'taken' with the baby as you say you are then surely his existence wouldn't have been if not for that?

Sorry if I'm coming across as harsh well not that sorry

NewDadTrying Sun 17-Feb-13 19:52:19

Ok Zookeeper I don't know precisely what her story of the last several months have been, it's none of my buisness, and she went through a phase of phoning me up to tell me who she was sleeping with, or planning to sleep with. When that didn't get a rise out of me she stopped, and to be honest it's quite clear I came to the wrong place.

I'm sorry I tested your "patience". I did my best to put across what I am going through concisely, and got some good food for thought from some people, for which I am very grateful. I won't be bothering you again.

zookeeper Sun 17-Feb-13 19:54:29

I think we might be starting to see the real you Newdad hmm

Piecesofmyheart Sun 17-Feb-13 19:59:43

'I would love to go into more detail here, but I do not know if my ex is a member here at all.'

How predictable. Manipulative. Obvious from your OP but I gave you the benefit of the doubt.
There is nothing that any of us can say that will have an impact on your attitude and behaviour. I suggest F4J.

zookeeper Sun 17-Feb-13 20:00:24

yes. Screamingly manipulative.

Letsmakecookies Sun 17-Feb-13 20:04:06

As I keep saying to my children, saying sorry doesn't mean very much and doesn't change what you did, it is just words without meaning. What you can do is change now. Mediation doesn't create legal agreements (afaik). And I think if you behaved as callously as you allude to, you have to understand she might not want you in her house. Dumping her because you knocked her up and then abandoning her to deal with crises and a great deal of hardship.

No one is saying she is a saint beyond reproach, but she is not an incubator and you need to give her time and space while baby is so young. Without that you will create more damage and hurt to your "relationship". You do come across as saintly and unable to listen to what people are repeatedly saying tbh. Now is not the time for mediation and lawyers, maybe in a year plus if nothing changes. Try being a nice guy first and putting your child's and his mother's (therefore child's food, home, safety etc) needs first.

HorizonFocus Sun 17-Feb-13 20:09:54

NewDad Your way of communicating is quite verbose.

Suggest some serious backing off until you can internalise some of the wise words on this thread.

Just back the fuck off and do what she tells you. You are coming across as incredibly self-righteous and self-obsessed, it's all about you and what you want. If you keep pestering and badgering and laying down the law to her, she would be well advised to get a non-molestation order out against you, which will not bode well for a good future co-parent relationship.

GinAndT0nic Sun 17-Feb-13 20:57:24

You aren't listening newdad. I think you've had an easy ride here. You seem to brush off anything that might be hard to process with a trite disclaimer such as "I'm new here, I don't know the etiquette, this site is for women". so, your starting position here is that we can't possibly.... what? help? get it? understand?

do you need us to understand? confused The thing we can help you with though, if you can slow down your own internal dialogue is how to have a better relationship with your son's mother in order to have a better relationship with your son.

You have to understand that your mistakes, her mistakes, your opinion of her, her opinion of you, all of this needs to be urgently compartmentalised , and dealt with on you own. You on your own have accept what happened.

Your sense of righteousness, entitlement, injustice [insert as applicable/delete as applicable] is no longer her problem. As I said before and I'm going to bold it now in the hope that it penetrates this time your x is not obliged to buy your interpretation of what went wrong in the relationship just as you don't have to concern yourself with her interpretation. Both of you will have lived and learnt and you should leave it there.

We can't make your girlfriend see your side. And I feel that really that is what you want from us. If you care enough about the relationship with your son, you will be mature enough to deal with the breakdown of the relationship on your own and you will respect her, and respect her wishes. Questioning her morality in a sexual sense is neither respectful nor your business after you finished with her.

GinAndT0nic Sun 17-Feb-13 21:17:09

You say

"However the balance of some opinions seems to be that because she is a mother her actions are almost by default beyond reproach, or must be forgiven, moved beyond etc etc (which again for the record is a place I am really trying reach emotionally within myself so that it doesn't colour anything for our child). Yet any morsel of my own mistakes will be seized upon as validation for earler assumptions. I accept given the purpose of these boards it would be daft in the extreme not to get that reaction from some."

*this paragraph shows that you haven't really absorbed a single word that's been said to you. You feel that it's unjust that we consider her beyond reproach. Whether or not she's beyond reproach is not the issue, and she doesn't have to answer to you any more because you (knocked her up, blamed her for that and then) dumped her.

What do you want from us here?! we've already given you a five point idiot guide on how to navigate your way through this, but you want us to berate your x. She's not here. You are. Do you want us to slag her off? Would that give you the comfort you're looking for? "

"I will admit that during the pregnancy I became atrocious at communication. To the point that even when my ex was experiencing crisis I was not someone she felt she could turn to for support. That's on me, and I know if I had approached things differently a great deal of hardship on her part could have been avoided. I feel terrible about that, I will apologise to her for it, when the opportunity presents itself to do so genuinely I will."

So, you acknowledge you treated her cruelly and that is a good step. But you can't force her to see you as a changed man. What evidence has she that you have changed? It would be a huge leap of faith for her to take, and she has a tiny baby to prioritise over your feelings.

"As to mediation I only want to use it at this stage to create a legal agreement between her and I to ensure that I get to see him at least once a week (although ideally I would love to see him as often as she will allow). I'm also not talking about taking him away from anywhere, I am happy to visist him at her place when convieniant."

You can't view mediation as a means to getting specific objectives that you've already decided on your own head. I really think you should, if you go to mediation, focus on listening first. I think it goes something like, listen, listen, mediator led compromise.

Piemother Sun 17-Feb-13 21:33:39

Just read the updated thread backwards. I was muttering the words manipulative and controlling before I read them in posts.
This guy reminds me of EA behaviour when they think if they go through the motions (I had relate in mind) then they can heap more blame on the other party.

Hey op's ex! Over here grin

GinAndT0nic Sun 17-Feb-13 21:40:41

Yes, I tried to help this guy because he reminded me somehow of my x., although, to begin with, i thought that's not fair on him.

Arguments with my x were exhausting because like this OP he was extremely verbose and he would take my words and repeat them back to me but with an entirely different meaning. He would get angry with me about what I thought/felt about him, and he would tell me at length and so convincingly what I thought.

Sorry to say it OP but I think you did your x a favour when you ended the relationship.

HerrenaHarridan Sun 17-Feb-13 21:55:27

Letsmake cookies.
Family mediation can help you draw up a contract to which you are then both bound under contractual law. If one takes the other to court for repeated breach of this contract it will go to family court and either upheld or rewritten by judge.
For future reference smile
Story of my life at the mohmm

Op you've been given plenty of sound advice by people who can best explain where your ex is coming from. No body said she could do no wrong, it's just that right now it's tough cookies on you if she does.
Shut up and smile smile

HerrenaHarridan Sun 17-Feb-13 22:01:07

Gin, fuck I hate it when they do that, or they repeat half the sentence so it means something completely different like they're the fucking daily mail.
I swear my ex used to hallucinate, we would go hang out with friends we'd get home and he'd want me to recount every ducking sentence that had passed between me and someone else and interject with " we'll it sounded like you were offering to give him a blow job"
Real example shock
In a room full of close friends, in front of my partner of course that's what I said!

HerrenaHarridan Sun 17-Feb-13 22:01:23

Ducking grin

Piemother Sun 17-Feb-13 22:14:57

Gin and Herrena - yes....my ex too. I wonder if he was going to show the thread to his ex if he has successfully manipulated us wink

HerrenaHarridan Sun 17-Feb-13 23:07:19

4 or 5 lovers since they split up. Fuckin hilarious!
That was it for me tbh right up until then I was willing to be reasonable. Lets not forget some women are utterly crazy and some men are lovely ( and unfortunately they always seem to find each other hmm)
However there you are proved right first posters, he is a controlling manipulating knob.
Oh well!

HerrenaHarridan Sun 17-Feb-13 23:08:38

Hi NewMumTrying grin

Piecesofmyheart Mon 18-Feb-13 08:57:10

Pass us a kiwi Herrena wink

HerrenaHarridan Mon 18-Feb-13 10:57:55

smile
*one kiwi, one tube of nipple cream and brew

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