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can i just get some thoughts on that theory, you know the one where, the ex who had treated you badly and let you down justifies this behaviour by becoming a monster, cos they feel guilty

85 replies

pirratePiggy · 26/11/2007 16:49

Becuase i have never understood this. If I felt bad, i think and hope I would do my utmost to make it better for the person I had left and not beat them when they are down.

This behaviour of my ex, the re writing history, etc, WHY??

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vitomum · 26/11/2007 16:55

sorry you are having a bad time. sounds like he can't take responsibility for his role in the break up. i believe it is all about control. he's lost you but he still wants to control your life

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Freckle · 26/11/2007 17:04

Often, they treat you badly so that you react and then they can say "See, I was justified in leaving her". Bizarre but true.

The best revenge you can have is to smile sweetly and live well without reacting to any provocation.

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CountessDracula · 26/11/2007 17:05

Guilt I should imagine

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pinguthepenguin · 26/11/2007 17:19

They are trying to reassure themselves they did the right thing. If they provoke a reaction out of you, they instantly feel better about what they've done.

I'm going through this myself ( see my other thread) and I sympathise, it's hideous. You're there, waiting for them to be concillatory, remorseful, ashamed.....it aint going to happpen. Thats what everyone keeps telling me anyway

I tried different tactics....being super reasonable in respone. While doing that forces him to at least be civil to me- it only lasts for as long as I'm doing things his way...the minute I have a complaint/concern/opinion- hostities are resumed. So don't really know what to advise to help you deal with it.

Feel for you though

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pinguthepenguin · 26/11/2007 17:27

Oh and re-writing the history- also going through this...and that is the most painful.

I've asked about this, and been told a simple fact:he needs reasons for doing what he did, so he's painted a picture in his head of how life was with you- a fabricated one of course, in order to convince you that there was no other option available than to leave.

You know your truth....you'll have to live with that, I'm afraid.

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pirratePiggy · 26/11/2007 19:10

i read your thread pingu.



I don't understand them. You seem very intelligent and reasonable despite being let down so badly.

I have tried every trick too, being too considerate cos thats me, and respectful, cos thats what I thought he deserved, seeing as we were together so long.

He left me. Yet its all my fault!!

I guess i am going thru this whole thing again cos it seems pretty obvious he's not going to be the dad i wan thim to be. I feel its opening an old wound, like atrigger of what he has actaully done to me, my dd and our marriage.

He won't visit dd, have quality time. She now refuses to see him.

stalemate. I think its this that has got me al angered up again.

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Rhubarb · 26/11/2007 19:15

Sounds like my mother. She re-writes past incidences and actually believes her version. She is also very destructive and although she I try to keep away from her, she still needs to think she has control. Only last night she telephoned just so she could have a good hysterical fit at me, then she'll fake illness and tell everyone I caused it.

I don't know why people behave in this way either, whether it be boyfriends, siblings, friends or parents. But you are not alone in wondering "why me? what did I do that was so wrong?" These are questions that have been going around my head all last night and most of today.

You have my utmost sympathy. Just try, if you can, not to react to anything. Be the bigger person. Even if they go around telling lies about you, keep your conscience clear, because what goes around comes around and one day, they'll get what's coming. Hopefully.

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pinguthepenguin · 26/11/2007 20:18

Do you know....I am practically obsessed with wondering whether my exp will get his just deserts. When peole say things like 'what goes around' etc, or he'll realise in years to come....I visibly brighten. Its utterly pathetic isn't it? to be consumed by such thoughts when I have a life to be getting on with.

The trouble with people who re-write histories, is that its difficult to imagine that they will ever realise how much hurt they caused, or whether they'll haven an 'epiphany' of guilt....because they actually come to believe their own lies eventually. That in itself, is a coping mechanism to help keep their guilt at bay.

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Rhubarb · 26/11/2007 20:51

And we have to accept the almost unacceptable.

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skyatnight · 27/11/2007 01:22

I identify with the messages in this thread. Freckle and Pingu are spot on with how everything is twisted to be your fault. The people who treat you this way are narcissists. They have no interest in cooperating with you, not even for the sake of their child(ren). They have never really grown up themselves. The only reality that exists for them is one where they are the centre of the universe with everything revolving around them. If the truth isn't like that, they remake it in their own heads to suit their ego. I read somewhere that a relationship like this can leave you with post-traumatic distress disorder as you just can't make sense of it.

If I let myself think about it (about the way he treated/treats me), I too can start obsessing. I don't (do really) want revenge as that would only be to lower myself to his level. I suppose I would be really frightened about the meltdown that might ensue if I dared to seek retribution. You can't win with someone who has no conscience. And of course when there is a child involved - you don't want them to be affected by it.

I think this kind of man knows that you cannot retaliate (because you care about the child(ren)). They know your hands are tied so they use this against you to punish you for not being the imaginary perfect foil to their ego that they believe you should have been; to punish you for being a real person with your own brain, able to make your own decisions.

No matter how badly you have been treated (unless perhaps he was physically abusive/dangerous), most women reach a point where they just want to put it behind them and have a civil working relationship for the sake of the kids. Sadly, this kind of man will never let go of the control battle (as he sees it) in his own head and will always suspect and mistrust you. They can't seem to see that we all die in the end. Life is short, too short to be vindictive, and some of the only things of true value are the relationships we have with our family and friends.

I don't know if there is a natural order, if what goes around comes around. It sometimes doesn't seem like there's much justice/karma in this world. If I find myself obsessing again instead of getting on with my life, I think about the many people who are sadly worse off than me. I turn to sad books and films, preferably with happy or at least peaceful endings. Shawshank Redemption is a good one as he is treated so badly / inhumanely but he does triumph in the end, not through agression but by being superior to the bad guys and playing the long game. Bringing up children on your own is one kind of long game.

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pinguthepenguin · 27/11/2007 01:47

Lovely, insightful post Sky

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Boysandbeaches · 27/11/2007 07:20

skyatnight, that was such a wonderful post to start a Tuesday on - thank you - it has made me post.

Same here - the rewriting of history. I know we all do it, to some extent. I battle with the need to justify myself and the split but then, accept it makes no real difference. The people, in the know, are those very special ones and the rest can have his version of events. Ah, but it does grate.

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pirratePiggy · 27/11/2007 07:34

sky--thankyou, wonderful.

I can'[t find the words to describe how it feels to read everything I feel written down by you caring people.

The post traumatci strss disorder yo mention, it seems to fit somehow.

I wil post later. as school run beckons.

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missboohoo · 27/11/2007 18:30

I agree that these immature and egoistic characters not only re-write history to soothe their own 'conscience' but also behave as badly towards you as possible, until you reach the end of your tether and lose it with them. And then they feel justified in saying you are "dodgy" and/or "psychotic", so any relationship break up was definitely your "fault", not theirs. I've seen this done to a friend and it has been done to me too, by the father of my children who cannot accept responsibility for his own behaviour (or for anything else, for that matter). He would never, ever back down and admit that he's wrong or, god forbid, apologise - even when he's done something that's glaringly outrageous. I'm sure that the post traumatic stress disorder comment is true. Relationships where you can't make ANY sense of the way you've been treated result in everything from insomnia to depression, bad dreams, feelings of confusion and anger, etc. And I think it's very hard not to harbour vindictive thoughts and plot their downfall - even if you don't act on it!

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pinguthepenguin · 27/11/2007 23:20

'plot their downfall'....I love it.

sounds like a line from superman/batman/austin powers

hehe!!

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DeathBySnooSnoo · 27/11/2007 23:45

i dont know the background here but i found that my xp's downfall came when i genuinely stopped giving a toss about him,what he thought,said etc etc.the day he showed himself in front of me and his children for exactly what he was.i was with him for 4 years and he continued to control my life(as much as he could)for the next 5 after we split.

he is probably still telling everybody how hard done by he is,how he misses his children who's minds i have poisoned against him and other such tripe.but i no longer care,and neither do his children who have made up their own minds about him,refuse to acknowledge that he is their father and never want to see him again.

i know its hard,but i found pretending not to give a shit was a good start.

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pinguthepenguin · 28/11/2007 00:22

Deathbysnoosnoo

Like pirate, I also thought about pretending not to care- but the thing is- and I know this sounds pathetic- but I want him to realise what he's done, so pretending not to care seems pointless to that end.
You see, he is utterly desperate to be allowed to get on with his new life. He even went as far as saying he thought I needed to meet someone (weeks after he left us). That tells me that what he would really like, is for me to go away, or to at least keep quiet because at the moment, I'm a rather annoying stumbling block.
For this reason- I dont want to give him the pleasure of thinking that everything is rosy in my garden, as that is actually what he wants.

First class head-fuckery. Anyone got a solution

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pirratePiggy · 28/11/2007 00:36

hi back again.
omg, my ex dh, actaully told me about some bloke he had met thru his 'new' freinds who he thought was perfect for me. This was about 2 months after he left me.

I at that stage could barely get out of bed, such was the shock and pain of his suddenly leaving.

There is no right answer about the 'not giving a fuck' and the 'trying to make themsee what they have done'

I am sorry to say but in my exp, you can do one or the other, depending on the week, the day, your mood, you strength or your despair, but niether work.

They don't get 'it'.

My ex dh was actually telling me how his new flatmate (guy whose sofa he ended up on) had shown him the correct way to cook rice, oh yes i had been doing it wrong all those yrs.

I look back and i think my god he was off his head, then he met his gf, and has become a madman.

I have been talking to a couple of mates, and one thinks I should give him the ultimatul, of 'look, you HAVE to come and see dd now she is refusing to come t you'

but, you know what I cant be f eckin arsed as its glaringly obvious thats wha she needs, and the las time i suggestedit in sept, his answe was 'oh god don't start that again'.

'that' being, time alone with dd which if he truly does want a relationship with her, he would have to do iyswim.

such a hardship for him. TBH Ihave been very forgiving of him, he has bullied me for the past nearly 3 yrs now. Sory of underhandedly, i don't even think he realsies he is doing it. He just see's it as its his right to have things go his way, but he wants all of it his way.

I am not allowed to comment on how he parents his dd, well, if that includes me telling him, how she feels and what she wants then no wonder its an inconvenience, and prompts backlash.

His gf ringing me and saying (just becuase I am now getting angry) that if I continue to be disrespctful to him he will be forced to drop contact with dd.

am repeating myself here, formother posts of the last few months, but it's helpingme get it out and regaina bit of dignity here.

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pinguthepenguin · 28/11/2007 01:20

Pirate

Your ex is a fool....,but the thing that appalls me most is the new gf ringing you?

I'm speechless.

Next time she ever attempts that, I would inform her politely, that the parenting of your daughter is not her concern.

If it continues, tell your ex that you will deal with him on paper only.

That should silence his rants for a while at least.

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pinguthepenguin · 28/11/2007 01:21

Pirate

Your ex is a fool....,but the thing that appalls me most is the new gf ringing you?

I'm speechless.

Next time she ever attempts that, I would inform her politely, that the parenting of your daughter is not her concern.

If it continues, tell your ex that you will deal with him on paper only

That should silence his rants for a while at least.

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skyatnight · 28/11/2007 03:46

Pingu, pirratePiggy - It's true. There is no right answer about the: ' 'not giving a fuck' and the 'trying to make them see what they have done'.' Your moods change from week to week. It's a grieving process and everyone's situation is different.

It was three years ago for me and, despite my earlier post, my thin veneer of philosophical benign acceptance has been hard-won. My sense of humour is still on back-order pending a delivery. I can remember wanting to scream with the injustice of it, full of barely controlled rage that was eating me up. I could have hit my head against the wall, until it bleed, with the frustration of it - but it wouldn't have done any good. There should be a law against it. Could we go back to the 18th Century or whenever it was and have him sued for breach of promise. Get our menfolk to have a duel and shoot the b*d. No, we live in civilised times and all is fair in love and war.

If (BiiiG IF) there is a kernel inside a nugget of guilt inside him, it is buried way down deep in a place that he never intends to ever let see the light of day. To acknowledge this guilt, to himself let alone to you, would be to create a schism in his psyche and, most likely, his head would start vibrating and explode (nice image).

But, I do think Boohoo and SnooSnoo () are right. From experience, the more you try to pursue the matter with him, the more confirmed and secure he will become in his (insincere) conviction that he was forced by you to treat you this way.

You are 'unreasonable' because you ask him 'difficult' (reasonable) questions that he doesn't want to answer. You are 'harrassing' him. He is 'totally justified' (in his warped dreams) in refusing to discuss it any more.

This man is not 'responsible' - in the sense that you shouldn't trust him with the emotional welfare of your second cousin's 3rd favourite teddy bear. For whatever reason he never developed empathy. He wants to get away with this scot-free and he can.

It's shocking that so many of us have had similar experiences. But it makes you realise it's not your fault. It can happen to anyone.

I think about the ones that leave their small children and go and live with another woman with children and treat those children with so much more love and respect than their own child. What does it mean? It's part of the charade of their new 'love' affair but, aside from that, I can only think that, deep down, these guys hate themselves so much that they cannot cope with their genes going on to a new generation. (It just might have been better if they had realised this when you were planning the pregnancy together.) They can be kind to someone else's child because it is not really their responsibility. They don't feel 'trapped'. It follows, though, that when this next (former) single mum stops worshipping him and feeling grateful that he was willing to take on another man's child(ren), he will have no qualms in leaving her, and her children, without a backwards glance.

Way, way, way down the line, if you leave him alone and if you do move on with your life and make no attempt to make him feel guilty...way down the line, when his 11th identikit relationship after you has failed for the same reasons that yours did (he couldn't cope with real life and responsibility)...way down the line when he looks back on his life and realises it's all been a pile of hollow s
t. Then, maybe, only maybe, he might think back and wonder whatever happened to 'xxxxx' (you) and feel a little bit unsure about whether he handled it right as you weren't a bad sort really. (Some of his girlfriends since you have perhaps been more determined or adept at seeking revenge.) And, after all, you did have some good times, once. This sudden (not) epiphany of his will be little comfort to you because, by then, he will be ancient history.

It's not fair. Of course you feel the need to rant about it and grieve. If, by some miracle, you have a foolproof way of making him take responsibility for his actions (without it backfiring on you), go for it! And tell me how you wangled it.

I have tried really hard to reason with dd's father, to be civil. He lead me on again a few times (about arrangements for contact with her which he claims he wants but which has never happened) but always ended up taking advantage of my generosity and throwing it back in my face, adding insult to injury. So now we have a stand-off which he will no doubt, in the future, say was my fault. Meanwhile, I endure and the pain slowly fades. I am glad he is out of my life. I would tolerate him for dd's sake but, until then, dd is great and he doesn't know, and may never be capable of understanding, what he's missing.

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Boysandbeaches · 28/11/2007 07:00

OMG - sky - were you married to my brother? Or are there even more men out there like him? In my first post, I was going to mention him - he lives in a parallel universe - but really, thought he was such an extreme case that it would be of no help.

He is onto wife 6, or 7, or 8 - lost count . He has told the world our mother/grandmother/brother were dead - all were very much alive, at those times . He does exactly what you describe - sets up a caring family and then, walks, straight onto his next victim. It is then, holidays with one and no money for those left behind.

I see him at funerals only as he always seems to find lovely, lovely women and it is unbearable - watching a car accident about to happen. Yes, I have tried warning women off - but, luckily for me, we live in different countries, now.

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pirratePiggy · 28/11/2007 07:48

sky, amazing, you have put so eloquently and thoughtfully what I feel.

I get so annoyed that I can't describe it as best as I would like too.

Yes my ex dh met his gf 6 weeks after he left us. She has children. he comes to my doorstep with the youngest girl, which hurts my dd. Iknow to for a fact that last time he came, avec gf's dd, he looked sheepish, and mumbled something about how she wanted to. I know also for a fact that his gf was in the car, and when the dd asked there is NO WAY he would have refused.

The word 'pussywhipped' came to mind.

I hope this htread continues, as instead of me just coming on and doing 'cathcup' on the latset situation, I wanted somewhere so we could learn, and get comfort form this attitude they have.

Oh, his gf, btw, is the epitome of Lynn Franks. Talks the talk, doesnt walk the walk.

She feels he is so hard done by. He feels he has been so hard done by. When she rang me that time, (not the first time) he was in the background. He had only just spoken to me, in this pained helpless voice, saying, 'please don't shout at me anymore, Iam at the end of my tether'

translated, --he cant face up to his guilt as you said Sky, and this point of collapse he 'thought' he was at, was basically it all catching up with him. Yet is was easier to blame me becuase 'oh dear' I got angry with him after nearly 3 yrs of this rubbish. The excuses, the let downs, and basically dd being let donw over and over.

HIs new family, wel her paretns, think he is just great. He even said his new gf knows him much better than I ever did, to which i guffawed.
Yet they are getting married next year, and tbh, I really don't seeit lasting somehow. I just don't think he is capable of the lasting responsibility of commitment.

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pinguthepenguin · 28/11/2007 11:28

Sky,

That was an amazing post. You sound as though you've been left with alot of emotional debt in the last few years....and you're finally 'paying it off', as it were.

piggy...if you are seriously dealing with this so far down the line, i would suggest mediation via solicitors. It doen't have to men more aggro....just a way of a 3rd party helping him see how this is affecting your dd...and of course, respite for you from the incessant shit.

A friend of mine is attending 'Relate' counselling on her own after the breakup of her marriage. She was left with alot of emotional baggage and needed to develop coping stratgies to get over it. I honestly feel like this might be an option for me. Not because my relationship was terrible- but because the way the breakup has been handled thus far, and of course- because I need to make sense of why it has happened.
I also dont feel like I could spend the next 18yrs of my dd's life dealing with each other in the way we are. It isn't that he is a naturally confrontational person- just the opposite actually- which in essences, means that any concerns I may have should never been brought up. Ever.

I also find our split particuarly hard to cope with, in light of the fact the my ex was/is not a 'ladies man' per se- in fact he is painfully shy and rather socially inept. Realising that he did this because he genuinely wants to be with the ow,is a further hurdle to overcome, and of course accepting that it will probably be a successful relationship to boot, makes me want to kill dead things.

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DeathBySnooSnoo · 28/11/2007 12:25

another excellent post by sky

when i was a single mum i went out with a few different men before meeting my dh.all of those who had children from previous relationships,amazingly enough all had ex's who were total,evil,manipulative bitches,who messed them around with seeing their children as 'revenge' for their leaving,which they were forced to do because said woman was a psychopath.

i think the new gf likes to believe the mans side of the story-after all,nobodys going to want a relationship with a complete bastard who left his wife and kids for no good reason,its much better if you can believe the ex wife deserved everything she got.

would it not be better to arrange contact through a solicitor?

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