ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT: This thread hasn't been posted on for a while.
; family year abroad
We are just coming to the end of our stint in London before we do the classic shift to the countryside.
DD is nearly 4.
We are considering a year abroad, most likely in rural France, mostly living off savings but trying to get local work as and when,, before we settle down in the countryside.
She would probably be 5 or 6 by then, sibling 1 or 2.
What are the chances of this being a successful (ie language infusing and positive) experience for the children (and us).
Is a year, with a pretty definite end date, too short a time to make friends and fit into a different education system?
We are all fairly outgoing people and have reasonable French but I don't know if I am being unrealistic in thinking we'd end up swigging Pernod with the locals whilst DD and DS ran wild with the local kids?
We have lived abroad in our early 20s both together and separately but were maybe a bit too immature to enjoy it properly?
Thanks for any advice!
I meant Tefl teaching...pays well in Hong Kong...twenty quid an hour and that was almost twenty years ago I did it....so it will be more now.
Why not go somewhere you can tell teach like Vietnam and find a French speaking school there......or somewhere like Hong Kong and put the kids in English speaking school...then in holidays you explore Laos, Burma Thailand etc......I loved Hong Kong and it is refreshing just being somewhere so different....you do need visas now to do tell teaching but it could help with the mandarin if you get the right school....or shanghai maybe....I would choose Hong Kong as you can live the island life there so really feel it is a different slower paced lifestyle if you live on lama or Lantau......
Thank you! I do have alot of lovely francophone Swiss friends in London so that has prejudiced me towards Seitzerland anyway- that and the Bain de Paquis in Geneva!!
Mumsnet really is a great international resource! Thanks all!
Try Switzerland. The french speaking part is very different to the German part.
I have lived in France, both Paris and rural France, and am far happier in Switzerland. It is a much livlier place, i have intergrated well, there is an expat community and the opportunity to mingle with the local community and we manage to do both. The DCs have local friends, and i have local friends independant of them. There is lots to do, especially outdoor activities.
What i prefer to Switzerland that France doesn't have is; the local people don't seem to have the chip (or would that be French fry) on their shoulders that the French seem to have; if you make a mistake with the language they are very patient; rural Switzerland (certainly in Romandie, the French speaking part) is not dead. Rural France is pretty dead. The rural community is not run down, whereas a lot of rural France feels desserted. There are jobs in Switzerland! It doesn't have the unemployment issues that France has.
I think you would be bored. If you want to live in France for a year, you need to prepare - find a job there first, enrol your dd in school, find french langauge classes. You won't learn the language on what sounds like an extended holiday.
It also sounds very expensive. If you are not working (and trying to pick up a bit of casual work here is probably the equivalent of not working), you will spend a lot of money trying to occupy yourselves. If you just want a long holiday, jsut go for a couple of months rather then a year.
Thanks heathers for Zurich FB group recommendation- will pass onto her as she is quite lonely.
You know, portofino, we spent time in the Lot and it was really small and frustrating. My rosé (ha, autocorrect) tinted glasses had kicked in. Had to drive miles to get to an ATM even.
We are now mulling over Sweden vs Frabce for a summer off. It won't be for a couple of years, so DD's education wikl be disrupted when we move either way. Will aim to move for DS to start reception.
Thanks for all the tips/comments.
I just spent 3 weeks in rural France on holiday. You never see anyone outside. Loads of total ghost villages. We had to drive at least 20km even to find a bar that was open. Fine for a holiday but I would do my nut if I had to stay for longer.
Caramel girls does your friend know about the Facebook group for mums inSwitzerland? International Mommies in ch. it can be hard to meet people here. Their tourism pr is so good that the reality is a bit of a shock!
I'm not sure that your friend's experience in Zurich is typical tbh- most of my friends who have gone there have enjoyed it, albeit they did find it hard to make Swiss friends due to the language barrier and the fact that it was almost impossible to break into long-standing social circles, and that's usually the issue tbh, rather than language. If you're going to be somewhere for a short period of time, you can't rely on palling up with the locals- to have a good time you need a high concentration of expats who are almost all wanting to meet new people because their friendship circle suffers 25-40% attrition every summer when people move on to the next posting. That obviously begs the question "why live abroad if you're just going to hang with other expats?" and it's a fair point, but it's that or drink alone .
Zurich could be fun for a year I reckon, although you'd bleed cash.
Ooh Cramel I was thinking of that as I was posting but didn't want to confuse this thread! (But will do anyway...;)) Nothing further on carrycot mystery but we had the chassis and seat unit out of the box last week and the bloody seat unit got stuck on! Couldn't get it off for love nor money so made the loooong trip back to the shop, they couldn't do owt either so they've sent it back to the manufacturer and we're waiting for a replacement. So basically carrycot issue may be irrelevant if it doesn't come back in time and my husband has to adapt one of his old go-karts or similar instead ;)
Having said all that I've remembered I did have a look in JL last week at the carrycot on one of the other BJs - think it was a City Mini or Elite - and although it was labelled a Compact, if had different connectors to the Versa one I have. Still not much help though. Basically am hoping for a long, thin baby!
And yes, irritatingly, Germany does look like a great bet to move to, but I have no German so would be reliant on DH to chat for me for a while.
Ooh and thanks for comments doradoo and laqulia. I sort of think it might be something for the family "memory box" of experiences we've shared.
laquila -any progress on versa carrycot mystery btw?
Sorry, the soul destroying bit was the slog in Canary Wharf- to fund moving to the countryside. It's just that, inevitably, there will be stuff we miss about London, so my thought was to have a bit of distance. Extended holiday might be best wat.
I think we know teacher training will be tough in the same way we knew having children would be tough- in theory we get it. He'd apply for the TeachFirst programme and see if they'd take him. We have plenty of teachers my side of the family so he hears a fair amount about difficulties. Not put him off yet.
Also does your DH have a clue just how hard work being a student teacher is?
I agree that rural France is not a place where it's necessarily easy to make friends. I'm curious as to why you think rural UK would be so soul destroying (in which case why move there at all? )
Do you mind your eldest missing Reception year in school btw? It's a nice year ime.
I like the idea of an extended trip somewhere interesting.
I'm inclined to agree with Doradoo. I think it would be an experience, whatever happened!
I don't think it's realistic to take on jobs as exhausting as chalet hosting, though, with two small children. I'd say you'd be more likely to find work doing things like private English tuition, working in B&Bs, restaurants etc, which probably wouldn't be full-time.
Anecdotally my friends who've moved to Germany have made the most successful moves, as it were. They've found it a very family-focused society, and have found it easy to make friends, although this does of course depend on jobs and also how easy your kids find it to make friends. Although friends who've moved to German-speaking Switzerland have also had a fantastic time (they were child-free though). Another family with a DS2 is in Basel, and every happy there - lots of expat friends though, rather than locals.
I'd definitely second trying the boards on somewhere like Angloinfo, Caramel. And don't be too put off by thoughts of Europe in crisis!
And my friend is currently going spare in Zurich. Her experience is that she's very isolated. Definitely would not fancy that.
Yes. Maybe a long summer inter railing or just camping out somewhere might meet my need for feeling like we've drawn a line under London.
Or maybe another baby.....
TBH, if it's only for a year and you can do it on savings, I'd just go and have a ball - it will be educational enough of an experience for your DD without worrying about fluency etc- she's only small....
FWIW DS1 was 4 when we moved to Germany (now been here 5yrs) and it took him a good year to be 'fluent' through immersion in the Kindergarten system - DS2 who was 1 when we moved was slow to speak at all - both languages.....
We now have a fairly stable social life - but despite efforts it seems to be based mainly around other english speakers - who like us are here to stay.
If you can manage to have some work organised before you go then great - the chalet idea sounds fun - but if it's only for a year don't stress it - just enjoy it for what it is.
As an aside, I have American friends who came to Germany in December with their family (DCs 15,10,8) who were only coming for a year - and in fact will leave in October - their younger DCs went into the international system, but the oldest into a German bilingual school - with no previous German knowledge and she seems to have survived
I was taken overseas at similar age and never reached anywhere near fluency, just way too young and way too short a time. Really not worth it for that. However, it is a very flexible age in terms of adaptation, living in the present- not going to be ripping them away from lifelong friends so young. Our first 6 months here were wonderful, the next bloody awful (classic culture shock stages).
Uf you all want an adventure and can afford the time & money, then plan something out - any reason has to be a year? How about a long summer instead and see how it goes? I too lived overseas a lot pre-kids, it is a VERY different experience with them and at a different life stage. Grass not greener, much more complicated life but yes, feels like an (exhausting!) adventure and i appreciate what we have lost by being overseas as well as what we have gained.
TBH, I'd avoid Switzerland. We spent three years there. Fortunately, DD was at International school or I'd have gone cross eyed with boredom.
IME, the Swiss nationals were petty, rule obsessed and frighteningly insular.
We did live in German speaking central Switzerland though.
Ouch! Tbh it's because French is a fairly strong language for DH and me. Other common foreign language is Spanish, but Spain has worse economy. We can do without working (especially something as tough as chalet hosting) but, like you say, would probsbly help sanity to chat to people.
Have friends in Hungary but also in recession and v difficult language.
VSO would also be appealing but I don't think we have much to offer.
Thanks for your comments, very useful.
You are being unrealistic even in your belief you'll find menial jobs is going to be easy to achieve, much of rural France is in crisis and unemployment is extremely high.
Why don't you just take on something like working for a ski company as chalet host or something like that, choosing a resort that is popular in Winter and in Summer, whereby you could get a small income from working, keep yourself sane with conversations with weekly turnover of skiers, 4 year old in the local maternelle whilst you're working, then a repetition after a lull from mid April to mid June with the Summer holidaymakers?
Or do you have to go abroad to do this? You could take on jobs as Youth Hostel managers or similar in the UK, giving yourself a rural life, giving yourself something different?
I don't really know why it has to be France. The Brits seem to gravitate towards France or Spain and rarely somewhere else. Try thinking of other places to go. Most of Europe is in crisis.
Right. So that is fairly conclusive. Thank you all for explaining why rather than just shouting "NO!!"
We were trying to think of an experience as a celebration/demarcation.
We lived in South America for six months when we first got together. DH has then had ten soul destroying years in the city and plans to become a student teacher in a small town. So we were trying to think of something to jog us out of our comfort zone and make us change the way we live/spend/think. Otherwise I worry that he will find the switch from senior high earner to someone without much status yet a bit of a shock. Plus we'll all miss the vibrancy of London a bit. So thought insular rural France with menial jobs might shake us out of our comfort zone.
We are both keen on the move from London, it's just a bit scary to think about the lifestyle changes.
Tho' I am worried about the school moves and insecurity for DD particularly. We moved alot (within UK) when I was younger and I found it quite tough.
Aargh, so no neat plan yet then. Hmmm.
What happens when you come back from France? I was fluent in French by age 10, went to a secondary school in uk where everyone was just starting French and didn't regain that level of fluency in French til I was doing A levels. I just kind of stagnated and remember being incredibly bored during French lessons. I had an hour a week of French chat but still, my confidence and ability fell through the floor.
My kids are starting to do the same with mandarin. After 5 years in singapore, dd1 can speak it reasonably but we've just moved to Texas and she needs to start learning Spanish so although there are secondary developmental benefits to acquiring a foreign language, she won't use it again for the foreseeable and it will take some work for her to regain it to the level she was at.
Don't hang everything on your dd learning a language. Or gaining any cultural benefit, because she won't remember a year abroad by the time she's 7. Why do you want to go?
I agree that France is incredibly difficult to break into socially, cities just as hard as rural locations. I've lived in France for many years on and off, worked there, got married there and have a few friends who are great but mostly have traveled or lived abroad themselves. Also agree that 2 years minimum would be about right. A year is not long enough to settle at all.
fluency is subjective, for me it's when someone can have a conversation without any hesitation at all. I've never met a child fluent in less than a year. And if learning under the age of 8, it will be by immersion. The downside to this is that if you then take an under 8 year old out of that language environment and they do not get an opportunity to converse again with the same level of frequency, there is a very good chance they will lose all they've learned.
If you really want a year only, choose somewhere where there is a large international population, where schools and the community are used to non French speakers, where you'll get international friends and / or French first language ones.
I bet Geneva has a sizeable international population, some of whom use local schools, that's somewhere you'll be able to go for a year. Same for Brussels.
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