ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT: This thread hasn't been posted on for a while.
Really is it just me here on my own morale high ground in Brisbane?? It seems that smacking is totally acceptable.. Encouraged even.. I just don't get it. One mums forum I read sometimes on face c##p was suggesting that smacking a 14 month old for putting good on the floor was just dandy??? Really... Is it just me?
WestieMama, I have used that example in several contexts with friends here in the US when they come up with the old "you can't legislate morality" argument.
Laws against domestic violence have also been to a significant extent leading laws.
Research has shown that anti-smacking law is a leading law. Normally law is changed to reflect changes in societies opinions. Occassionally law is changed first and societies opinions gradually change in line with it eg anti drink driving legislation.
When the law changed in Sweden the majority of people opposed it and thought smacking was ok. 5 years later you'd be hard pushed to find anyone who thought it was ok.
It's a shocker, isn't it?
The example I use is that the arguments for hitting a child: they're impulsive, and not always open to reason, are also those which would allow you to hit a demented adult or a person with severe SN.
The one that sticks in my craw is "the loving smack". Yeah, right.
We were talking about it at work last week and I was the only one on the no smacking side. Everyone else aside you should be allowed to smack and even 'it could be banned in public but you can do it behind closed doors'.
I tried to use the example of if we do something wrong at work we don't smack each other across the staff room, but that's not the same apparently.
Unfortunately, in over half of the USA corporal punishment in legal in schools as well as at home.
Just to add some clarification to this: 19 of the 50 US states allow corporal punishment in state schools. Local school systems in these states generally have the authority to ban it if they wish, and many do.
The incidence of its use in schools is decreasing. I think there is growing support for more bans in schools, but it will unfortunately be a long time before hitting children is banned in the home in the US.
I separately would also like to add that last year a friend of mine was on jury service. The case a 60+ year old man accused of hitting his Grandchildren. A teacher had reported the Grandfather on behalf of one of the children. As the case progressed it turned out that the children's parents were drug addicts, the Grandparents had taken the children in rather than have them put into care. The children ran wild and were a product of their chaotic upbringing up to that point.
I personally question whether that Grandfather should have been in court or whether he should have been given the support he needed in a very difficult situation.
chloeb2002 some (not all of course) of the people here in NZ opposing the law are doing so for a number of reasons:
1. At referendum 87% of voters said no to the anti-smacking law yet it was implemented. Whether you are pro or against the law you have to question why undertake the referendum. People are wanting to make a political statement.
2. It is difficult if not impossible to enforce - how do you prosecute every parent who smacks their child. John Key himself said In 2007, John Key said, if the reality is that no one is ever going to be prosecuted for lightly smacking their child, then dont make it illegal. Dont make it a crime. Its poor law-making to write a very strict law and then trust the police and the courts not to enforce it strongly . The law shouldnt depend on which police officer or which judge or which jury you happen to get on the day. The law is arguably flawed.
3. People argue it overburdens already overstretched services trying to protect children known to be at risk.
4. It has been and arguably still is acceptable in NZ for some cultures to smack their children. Imposing a law does not change culture, education and time does.
5. Lastly it has done nothing to protect numerous children from being beaten to death each year. 10 children are killed by family members each year. NZs record of child abuse is one of the highest is shocking and the law has had no impact on those figures.
People argue that the law is not the answer. These are not necessarily my views but you asked why people were opposed.
It's an offence where I am too. I find the UK's position on smacking shameful. There have been various government enquiries looking into it and they have all come to the conclusion that it should be banned. But no government has had the backbone to do it. The UN has a programme aimed at bringing about a universal ban on smacking. The European Union is working towards, and has almost achieved a cross Union ban.
It will eventually happen in the UK too. It's just a matter of time. I think it's a shame that the UK will be dragged into the ban kicking and screaming all the way, instead of being at the front, fighting for children's rights.
Corporal punishment is also legal in Singapore in the state schools, and at home. But in the state schools only for boys! And sometimes it's done in front of other pupils to add humiliation to the pain.
for anyone who's interested, here's the situation in Europe today http://www.coe.int/t/dg3/children/corporalpunishment/Country%20Activity%20Reports/DefaultProgress_en.asp
There's also a petition to be signed on this site for a global ban, if you wish to help.
"Hitting adults is called assault.
Hitting animals is called cruelty.
Hitting children is "for their own good". "
(I know this is a tad off topic but it's something I feel strongly about and can't help going on, so apologies if I'm boring or annoying anyone, I'm leaving now...).
What I do find odd is the " reverse the law" group in nz who want the law there over turned. Do they not think it was made for a reason?
I hope a good black and white law is passed here but with another election looming it will not be any time soon!
Twilight that is sad - I fully support a ban. As for schools - words fail me.
I checked it out here and this was passed in 2007:
(1) Parental authority includes the duty and the right of the parent to care for and raise his or her minor child. (2) Caring for and raising ones child includes the care and the responsibility for the emotional and physical wellbeing of the child and for his or her safety as well as for the promotion of the development of his or her personality. In the care and upbringing of the child the parents will not use emotional or physical violence or any other humiliating treatment.
This in effect means spanking is indeed illegal in the Netherlands. Good.
Yes I am surprised at the recent debates on it here in Australia. It was like a real revelation that research by paediatricians showed that smacking should be banned!!!! In the UK I think the prevailing view is that smacking is not ok - not meaning it doesn't happen but people certainly wouldn't freely admit to it in my experience....
I think this is the case in most, if not all, of Europe viking.
Unfortunately, in over half of the USA corporal punishment in legal in schools as well as at home. In the other half it's legal at home
well Fairylea I'm overseas and hitting children is illegal here, as in jail time......
as I was a foster parent for years I know some very unfortunate statistics and research, like this http://www.angus-reid.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2012.02.13_Smacking_BRI.pdf
and this https://login.thetimes.co.uk/?gotoUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.co.uk%2Ftto%2Fnews%2Fuk%2F
I don't know what it's like in Oz, because when I briefly lived there I didn't have children, so wasn't paying any attention to them.
However, whichever the country, I believe that the law should absolutely prohibit smacking, as laws form ethics and public opinions. People who consider smacking their given right are encouraged by the law. And they can also argue to non-smackers that "there's a reason the law allows it". A weak and confused non-smacker might think that they have a point... I don't know if I'm explaining very well what I'm trying to say, my written speech skills are quite terrible.
I was under the impression that a ban on smacking appears on the press in Oz from time to time, and I know that Tasmania are moving towards a ban. As it is over here, in the UK. Hopefully it will be law soon, and people will start seeing more clearly....
no, what was banned in scotland was the use of instruments, it's only allowed with open hand. In the rest of the UK you can use an instrument of your judgement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do see it a lot in the UK. You can read threads about it on here and you'll see what I mean....
Was it not banned in Scotland? I'm in the Netherlands - and I don't know whether it's banned or not. I do know I have never ever seen it happen, and none of the people I know with kids would do it either. Just not done.
Stand your ground you ladies in Australia, they'll come round eventually. Even my Mum has...and she was the queen of the 'a slap on the leg will sort that out' approach.
Interesting as I naively thought it was illegal, but at least the issue has been partially addressed and even the poli's can see it needs further "work" no such chance here.
I disagree that smacking is frowned upon in the UK, I see it a lot both in public and in forums, I wish it was banned. It seems though that the UK is the only country in Europe were parents are given the law's permission to smack their children!!! As long as they don't leave a mark -god forbid there's physical proof that you abuse your children...
I am some what relieved I am not the only person who finds it "strange" that its do acceptable here. It was on sunrise as a topic and 91% of people say they would reject a ban. I can't understand that. I guess it's just a case of educating those you can. I have managed to convert one... So I am trying ...
Of course I do. No need to be so rude.
Yes I was generalising. I apologise for that. I was merely joining in the conversation.
Fairylea do you know 'overseas' is not an actual place? I might just as well say attitudes like yours make me glad I do not live in the UK.
To be honest, overseas attitudes towards children and smacking is one of the main reasons I could never live anywhere but the UK. Smacking is generally frowned upon here, thank goodness.
Two lovely people I've met in Perth, highly educated intelligent people regularly hit their two year old with a wooden spoon.
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