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Cannot get unfaithful H to leave

(46 Posts)
MayYouBloomAndGrow Thu 25-Apr-13 10:25:30

I have informed my cheating H that I am commencing the divorce process, but he doesn't seem to want to leave.

As far as I am aware, he is still involved with OW, and thus has a willing and open pair of legs arms into which to fall. She has her own house, and (AFAIK) has made it clear that he is welcome to move in with her.

For at least a year he has been telling me he is "leaning towards" leaving. I reached the stage a long time ago where I have told him to go if that's what he wants. It seems that the more I tell him to go, the more he wants to stay.

I outright asked him to leave a few weeks ago, and was told to "go whistle" and "it's my house". He is away on a work trip (with OW) currently, and I sent an e-mail telling him I was starting the divorce. He responded that he thinks "there is still room for discussion here", and that his address for correspondence is still our home address because he has "no reason to make it any other".

I am completely floored by this. I have assumed for a long time that he didn't want to be seen as the bad guy and was therefore waiting and hoping that I would ask him to leave, divorce him, whatever. I cannot believe that he is stubborn enough to stay even through the divorce process, and I cannot imagine what OW might be thinking although have little sympathy.

What are my options here? Do I actually have any options apart from ploughing ahead with the divorce? Can anyone shed any light on his mindset, or what legal advice HE may have received?

The house is in his name so I know he technically has a legal right to live here until the divorce process and financials are complete. I have registered matrimonial home rights, and received legal advice re financials. There has been no significant violence. There are 2 DCs involved, a toddler and one in primary school.

The temptation to remove his stuff in bin bags is immense, but I don't think I'm legally allowed to and fear that he would use it against me, and it would distress our oldest DC. I was hoping for a straightforward and minimally acrimonious divorce, but I don't think I'm going to get one. sad

Thanks for listening.

Crutchlow35 Thu 25-Apr-13 10:55:06

I am not sure what the answer is however,can I suggest you also post this on the relationships board. Tonnes of help there.

mumblechum1 Thu 25-Apr-13 12:04:34

I'd say just get on with it. Why not issue the petn now, and when he gets it he'll start talking about the finances ime.

mumblechum1 Thu 25-Apr-13 12:05:04

But of course you can't throw him out unless there's DV,in which case you'd have to issue an injunction appln

kittycat68 Thu 25-Apr-13 16:53:02

i do feel for you OP but you cant legally get him out, if he intends to go on a go slow with the divorce it could be well over a year before the divorce ends even then if the house has to be sold as part of the divorce he can stay there until its sold!! so it would be a case of having to put up with the situation or move out into rented yourself for your own sanity, but if u do move out it would mean you would not be able to go back and live in the FMH after the divorce.

babybarrister Fri 26-Apr-13 08:47:59

Agree just get on with divorce AND finances ASAP - do you have solicitor? Resolution is the specialist family lawyers association smile

expatinscotland Fri 26-Apr-13 09:02:19

You will need to plough ahead with the divorce. Hire a solicitor formally. Inform him, or let them inform him, that there is no room for discussion beyond discussing the divorce.

Don't leave the house! He won't, but such is life.

AThingInYourLife Fri 26-Apr-13 09:09:30

No sugnificant violence?

HeliumHeart Fri 26-Apr-13 10:55:29

I was/am in a similar situation - unfaithful H, although he initiated the separation, refused to move out, house in his name only, etc etc.

I don't know about yours, but mine has an extremely controlling nature and as the divorce has progressed, the fact that his control over me is lessening is making him behave in unpredictable ways - I've recently had to take him to court to try and get him to leave me alone - he was continually calling the police and trying to get me arrested, wasting police time, so embarrassing.

I also recommend that you go to see a solicitor ASAP and plough on with petitioning him. At some point he will have to take notice.

In my case, H started staying elsewhere although still refuses to either let me know where that is nor to change his correspondence address. I have a feeling this is to protect his position, particularly as he has cited from the get-go that the only reason he is staying somewhere else is because I am apparently incapable of remaining civil to him in front of the children.

Our divorce is turning out to be horribly acrimonious - not what I wanted at all - and will no doubt be expensive. I hope the same doesn't turn out to be true for you. Don't be afraid though, I felt so much better when I took a stand and hand-delivered the petition myself, having decided that morning and filled the forms in straight away. None of it is as scary as you think and there is a lot of support and advice out there once you start looking. Are you a SAHM?

Regarding your rights to get him to leave, as far as I've been told he has a right to be here if he chooses, unless you feel threatened in which case you can try to get an occupation order; or if he has somewhere else to stay. It is hideous but tell yourself that this time will pass, and soon you will be in the next stage, etc etc. I already feel a lot lighter and freer than I did. The future is bright.

Definitely see a solicitor and go ahead with the divorce. You don't need his permission or his co-operation to start proceedings. You can't, unfortunately, force him out unless there has been violence, but you can treat him with calm indifference when he's actually in the house, and walk away from any discussion.

MayYouBloomAndGrow Fri 26-Apr-13 17:02:42

Thanks for the comments. I am resolved to press ahead with this divorce, and have been filling in the statement of arrangements today. I did think initially about posting it in relationships, but I didn't want advice to bin-bag his stuff and lock him out; I needed the legal perspective.

I am not planning to move out (unless my sanity is seriously threatened). I was advised as such by my solicitor, and this is my children's home, and right in the middle of my support network. We are not "over-housed".

No significant violence - yes, rather embarrassingly, there has been some, but six-of-one-half-dozen-of--the-other if I'm honest. Certainly out of character for me, and I think out of character for him. As an example - I got hold of his mobile phone (early in 2012) and was trying to find OW's number to call her to tell her to come and pick him and his things up - he held my wrist so tightly I had to let go of the phone. Another time (early 2013) I was trying to take a holdall full of his stuff downstairs (to throw it out onto the drive) and there was a bit of argy-bargy as he (successfully) tried to stop me - he did actually raise a fist at one point but thought better of it. On the other side of the coin, early on in all this, I was trying to push him out of the bedroom at one point and bent his finger back. He's also had a few soft toys and pillows thrown at him at various points.

I don't want to make a big thing of the violence - it really is petty playground stuff - and it would immediately move all of this onto a significantly more acrimonious plane. I don't want to get embroiled in arguments about who started what, and I certainly don't want to be the one who is forced to leave the house if he were to successfully argue that he was at risk from me. "Calm indifference" is my aspiration and I have been achieving that consistently for the last few months (as the emotional pain and trauma has numbed and I have become more settled and resolute). However, he is a very convincing liar and debater, and I think I could possibly come off worse if we got into these arguments.

MayYouBloomAndGrow Fri 26-Apr-13 17:16:38

HeliumHeart - I'm sorry you are in a similar situation. Thanks for posting.

It's interesting what you say about a contolling nature and unpredictable behaviour. It's interesting that the only times H has lost his temper are those times when I've tried to take control and get him to leave. When I've tried to get him to leave by calm discussion and/or e-mails, he just has ignored me.

I told him by e-mail yesterday that he shouldn't return here from his work trip, but should go straight to OW's house. I said I felt that this would be better for our toddler, who has now adjusted to his overnight absence. He responded "I have no plans to sleep elsewhere tomorrow night; where do you expect me to go? I can't realistically get a B&B! I don't want to stay at [OW]'s. Is it reasonable to simply turn me away from my own house?". So he's due back here any time now... Gulp.. I thought if I made a fuss about it, he'd be even more likely to use his rights to return, knowing it distressed me. So I am planning to rise above it with the assistance of a neighbour 3 doors down and a nice bottle of red.

I hope this doesn't turn unnecessarily acrimonious, but I fear it might.

I am not an SAHM. I have a decent job, albeit part time and not brilliantly paid. I could afford to take on this house based on the likely settlement that my solicitor has advised. So I'm in a pretty good position compared to many.

expatinscotland Fri 26-Apr-13 17:21:11

Rise above. He's trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

fuzzywuzzy Fri 26-Apr-13 17:31:10

Rise above it.

Take this as how it's going to be till the divorce is over.

I'd petition for divorce if I were you, it works out better ime at least it gives you some semblance of control.

How are you living right now? Could you live as if he's just a flat mate? Do your own thing with you & kids & he can get on with his life. Would that be workable?

Don't fall into the trap of bending over backward to be accommodating to him he sounds like he'd walk all over you given a chance. Take control of this situation, how do you want to proceed, follow that.

RedHelenB Fri 26-Apr-13 18:12:56

Crack on - till you divorce & sort the financials you won't be able to stop him from entering the house.

MOSagain Fri 26-Apr-13 19:04:11

As Mumblechum and babybarrister, both extremely experienced family lawyers have said, crack on and issue and then he will be forced to deal with things. Once the divorce is underway you can turn to dealing with the ancillary relief (finances).

Unfortunately, unless there is DV/grounds for an occupation order, you can't force him to move out but perhaps once he realises you are serious about divorce he will decide to move out.

HeliumHeart Fri 26-Apr-13 20:45:04

Thanks. Without saying too much, I think your tactic is a good one. Keep grounded, and be assured that you are doing the right thing. In case you need it reiterating, your husband sounds outrageous - I think you will feel infinitely better when you start taking some of that control back.

Also: Don't cook or clean for him, or do his laundry (as your DC is only a toddler s/he will not notice or question this). If he says anything, reply calmly that the marriage is over and therefore he can make his own domestic arrangements. Politely ignore him unless it's necessary to speak to him. This man wants a reaction from you, all the time, because it's vital to him that you NOTICE HIM AND HIS MIGHTY PENIS! You're supposed to be grief-stricken and desperate for him not to leave! He probably hopes to be able to keep both you and OW in a state of constant competition for his Mighty Penis; it's not about wanting to leave you for her, it's about his irresistibility...

babybarrister Sat 27-Apr-13 09:47:57

I think I might call DH "his Mighty Penis" grin

juneau Sat 27-Apr-13 09:57:06

I'm guessing he's been advised by someone not the leave the house. It could be a solicitor or just a friend saying 'Whatever you do, don't leave the house or she'll get it'. As you say, he has a place to stay with the OW, so he's making a deliberate decision to stay - probably to stake his claim and also, it sounds like, to piss you off.

I'd just do everything you can to expedite things. Get all your paperwork in order and get the divorce petition filed. He may try to hold things up, but you should be as efficient as you can.

digerd Sat 27-Apr-13 11:59:39

I have had experience of 2 women I knew, who, because they had a dependant , the solicitors forced the men out of the house, under the law that the woman and child stayed in the house and the man had to leave.
One was in a flat owned by her DH's firm, the other was a house owned by the DH.

So, has the law changed in 20 years?

Collaborate Sat 27-Apr-13 13:17:56

Forcing out by injunction, and forcing out by a property settlement are 2 completely different things.

bran Sat 27-Apr-13 13:35:20

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sleeton Sat 27-Apr-13 14:05:02

I know nothing of the law and do know those advising up thread will have done so correctly (and they certainly did so kindly). I just wanted to say I am sorry you are in this position.
It seems to me that the way your husband is treating you and your children is emotionally abusive ('flaunting' an affair, and making no steps to resolve the situation by either divorce/moving out or by ending the affair).
Yet the law requires physical abuse, before you can force him to move, while awaiting the division of property? Intolerable!
Who was it that said "The law's an ass"?

Good luck!

He is entitled to be in the house, as are you. And unfortunately if you move his stuff to a different bedroom and put a lock on the bedroom door, he is legally entitled to remove that lock.

If his solicitor has any wit, he'll have been told not to leave the house.

Morally's a different issue, but legally he has every bit as much right to be there as you do.

So sorry you're in this position.

HeliumHeart Sat 27-Apr-13 14:23:04

Really? So if my H has put a lock on his bedroom door (the spare bedroom) am I legally entitled to remove that lock too then? hmm

It's your house as much as his. Legally, yes. Morally, hmm, and whether it's a sensible course of action or not is another issue.

I'd advise you to go and seek advice from your solicitor who will be aware of all the facts of your particular case.

MayYouBloomAndGrow Sat 27-Apr-13 14:33:41

He's back. Waltzed in as if he owns the place <erm, whoops, he does!>, gave me a peck on the cheek, tried to continue as if everything is normal. I find it very bizarre how he can do that having been told I didn't want him to come back at all... I interacted very little, and even then only when answering direct questions. There was no discussion about significant things, but that's mainly because I removed myself as soon as the DDs went to bed.

He's been in the spare room for several months. That's all very well, except the spare room was supposed to become DD2's room, so it means I still have a cot in my room, and my sleep is disturbed by a toddler who throws herself around and dreams about cats miaowing and 'diders' (spiders). I'm also waking a lot in the night worrying about stuff, so am emotionally and physically exhausted.

We are kind of living as flat mates already - except that I would be warmer towards a flat mate, perhaps share a bottle of wine or a film with them. I think I can still make some progress in the direction of being less co-operative though. Today for example he'd hung his washing outside then went out. There was a heavy April shower - and his washing remained outside. Previously I'd have brought it in on autopilot. Actually, I'd have brought in a flat-mate's washing.

SGB you have made me laugh about the "mighty penis". I think you're right - he definitely likes getting a reaction. In fact, I do wonder if he gets some kicks out of having had me and OW both in confused/distressed states at various points during this whole sorry episode.

Bran - that's sound advice, thanks. Unfortunately I can't install a lock because he needs access to my room if he's babysitting DD2 while I'm out. But I have removed important documents into storage at a trusted friend's. And I have stopped using the "family" computer (which he set up) and got myself a laptop that he doesn't know the master password to.

I will continue to attempt to both stay grounded and rise above it <defies laws of physics> grin whilst cracking on, as suggested. thanks everyone for your thoughts. I think I need to keep talking to keep the momentum up. It would be awfully easy to slip into the pattern of the last several months.

MayYouBloomAndGrow Sat 27-Apr-13 14:37:52

Cross posted with a few people... looks like it's a good job I didn't install a lock then!

monkey9237 Sat 27-Apr-13 14:44:29

If the house is in his name only you should get on the Land Registry website and register your interest in the property, it's called a Charge. It means he can't just decide to sell the house without your knowledge/agreement. the house can only be sold if ordered by court or with the agreement of you both. I did this when I was in a similar position to you. I assume the law remains unchanged on it. Good luck.

Oh I misread. If he owns the house, you certainly can't go putting locks on doors. You will, however, have been building up an equitable interest and I'd advise you very very strongly to get to a very good solicitor.

MayYouBloomAndGrow Sun 28-Apr-13 06:52:44

Thanks Monkey and Freddie. The Land Registry thing is done already, and the solicitor I've seen says that I will be ending up with the house, regardless of current ownership. He asked what my housing needs were. I replied a 3-bed semi in the catchment area of DD1's current school. He said what do you have? I said a 3-bed semi in the catchment area of DD1's current school. He said that in that case, no judge in the land would order me out of it.

Last night was weird. When the kids were asleep, I made myself available for talks if necessary by sitting quietly on the sofa, TV off. He had after all put in his e-mail that he thought there was "room for discussion", so I thought I should get it over with. He came in from the kitchen, sat down next to me on the sofa... and turned on the TV and started watching a film. I gave him a little while in case he was plucking up courage, then went to bed.

I think that tells me everything I need to know really. He's not come home full of remorse and regret, trying to talk me round at the earliest opportunity. Either he doesn't really give a shit if I petition for divorce, or he is so arrogant that he thinks I won't do it.

So, I need to plough on. I've been awake in the early hours and have now finished both forms. I'm doing the divorce paperwork myself to keep costs down, and saving the solicitor for financials (and children if necessary).

Please can I be cheeky and ask if any of the family lawyers would mind casting their eye over the contents of the box in Part 6 (via PM)?

Homebird8 Sun 28-Apr-13 07:11:00

I know nothing about legalities but I'm pretty damn sure you get to choose who pecks your cheek. Even my DSs get to choose that.

I am so sorry you are in this position and unfortunately I do think you're right that he has no intention of talking anything through. He doesn't think you mean it so it would be a waste of Mighty Penis time.

MayYouBloomAndGrow Mon 29-Apr-13 10:51:34

Homebird - I couldn't duck the peck on the cheek as it was in front of DD1 who has not yet been made aware of the situation.

Well, yesterday I instigated a conversation while DD1 was out, saying that I'd said everything I needed to say, but that I'd hear him out if he had anything new or significant to add. His "room for discussion" means that he still considers himself undecided, and we started the circular conversations again where he laid out what he thought his options were (leave or stay). I told him that while he thought about things I'd continue cracking on with the divorce. He didn't even seem very bothered.

I'm a bit confused about the unreasonable behaviour - does it all have to be within the last 6 months? Or just some of it? Is it better to cram it all into the box in Part 6, or is it better to expand on things, use a continuation sheet and lay it out neatly in paragraphs?

babybarrister Mon 29-Apr-13 20:37:44

No-one cares about the exact details - any 3 things will do - just get it in motion asapsmile

expatinscotland Mon 29-Apr-13 20:42:53

What a tube steak this person is. He really thinks it's all about him. YY, plough on with the divorce.

He thinks that it's up to him to decide what happens, and that you and the OW should be frantically competing to 'win' him. You're supposed to be begging him to give her up by now.

It might bea good idea to tell the DC. If you can't rely on him not to be a cock about it (eg start boohooing and insist that Mummy's being mean and throwing him out) then get your story in first. If you think he might behave well (ie if he's capable of loving the DC and considering their best interests) then telling them together is usually better.

Snazzynewyear Mon 29-Apr-13 21:35:49

I wonder if the OW has become less keen to have him move in, or he's become less keen and now wants what he can't have. Either way it shouldn't change your resolve now. It may take a while to get rid of him but the sooner you start the ball rolling, the sooner he'll have to go.

fengirl1 Mon 29-Apr-13 21:55:26

OP - do get a solicitor, even if you only do so to get help filling out the forms. I have only skim-read this thread, so forgive me if I repeat what others have said. It is probably still the case that if you divorce on the grounds of adultery, that unless he admits to it, you could end up going nowhere. It would be better to go for unreasonable behaviour, and that did not have to be in the last six months alone ime. I wrote a list of twenty points and my solicitor guided me as to which would be best and how to word them - so write down anything and anything you feel to be relevant (mine included never coming with me to dc's hospital appointments (one dc has a severe sensory impairment), undermining me with dc's, spending his bonus money and money from his family on himself but insisting money from my parents was spent on home improvements etc. Don't try to fill the forms in in one go either - they take time! If you need any valuations on anything you're likely to retain eg a car, get the lowest value you can (use websites like I found it helpful to photocopy the forms so I had a working copy I could then write up on the final form.
I'll shut up now as I've rattled on long enough! Keep the end point in mind, and good luck. smile

Homebird8 Tue 30-Apr-13 08:37:05

You're doing the right thing to progress the divorce. He seems not to be able to comprehend that you are able to make decisions for yourself. Having said that, your decision regarding the 'peck' is a loving one for your DD. I hope he can be as loving and that your DCs can grow up respecting both of their parents. Sending you a bouquet thanks for your stage presence under difficult circumstances.

kittycat68 Tue 30-Apr-13 09:30:46

just out of interest op would you take him back if he gave up the other women?

Longdistance Tue 30-Apr-13 10:45:07

He'd be lucky to kiss my arse, let alone peck me on the cheek.

I reackon he's playing it cool, as ow has had her fun, and she doesnt want him now. That's why he's not staying at hers.

kittycat68 Tue 30-Apr-13 13:06:05

could well be. In that case OP get the divorce moving and keep pushing it forward as he sounds like he would probably go on the go slow incase you want him back!!! my ex once told me i should be grateful he married me!!! shows what ares some men are!!

digerd Tue 30-Apr-13 16:42:31

shock [anger]. Your ex has an inflated ego and is dilusional. < wish there was a [full of contempt face]>

iheartdusty Tue 30-Apr-13 22:15:38

re unreasonable behaviour and Part 6 of the petition:

In a sense, less is more here. Provided there is enough for the court to accept it (as babybarrister says, any 3 things will do), your divorce will probably end up being more civilised than if you set out in detail all the examples of nasty and obnoxious behaviour that you can remember. No point in getting him all stirred up, he might even start wanting to defend it to 'clear his name' yadda yadda, and it will almost certainly make him more vindictive over the money side of things.

Glacial cool, dignity, and rising above. That way you can focus on the finances, and he will be on the back foot.

kittycat68 Wed 01-May-13 09:19:39

agree with iheartdusty here , dont try to stir him up just get it over with as quickly as possible the more you argue with him over stuff the longer it will go on . good luck op.

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