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Ex claims to be living off savings - won't pay child maintenance

(46 Posts)
Betsybob Sat 13-Apr-13 16:01:44

In February 2 years ago, my ex partner resigned from his job, and stopped paying child maintenance for our 3 children. The CSA were vague and dithering, but finally told me that he claimed to be living off his savings, and therefore was not obliged to pay me child maintenance.

I find it hard to believe that over 2 years later, he still has not found a job (or even thought that he might have a moral obligation to find one to help support his children). I am also baffled as to where these savings could have come from, as for the 13 years that we were together we had none! I phoned the CSA yesterday, but they say that without any new information, I cannot challenge the decision. The woman I spoke to said that she would phone him to ask if he is now working, but when I asked: 'And how will you know if he is telling the truth?', she fell silent as if this was a completely new concept to her.

For the past 2 years my ex-partner has paid his own mortgage, fed and clothed himself, and has apparently not done a day's work. Meanwhile, I am a struggling single mother who works long hours doing a difficult job, and yet it is a real struggle to pay my own mortgage each month. I am really struggling financially, and don't see why it is morally justifiable that he can refuse to support his children because he is 'living off savings'. Surely there must be something I can do to challenge this? Does anyone have any advice?

LineRunner Sat 13-Apr-13 16:08:21

How frustrating. <being polite> It sounds awful, OP.

Does the CSA not have access to HMRC and other records, to check his sources of income?

Or do you think he is working cash-in-hand jobs? In which case again, the HMRC should be involved, surely.

gallicgirl Sat 13-Apr-13 16:08:27

Did they ask how much savings he had 2 years ago?

I know csa do investigations if expenditure seems to vastly exceed income.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Sat 13-Apr-13 16:09:23

I thought they had the right to investigate?

LineRunner Sat 13-Apr-13 16:10:13

Is there a process where you can formally request the CSA to carry out an investigation, do you know, gallicgirl?

gallicgirl Sat 13-Apr-13 16:12:58

No idea, sorry. I only know because I did a witness statement for an investigation.

Betsybob Sat 13-Apr-13 16:41:00

I really don't know whether he is working cash-in-hand, unfortunately - he doesn't see me or his children, and we don't know his address. His parents maintain that he isn't working.

The CSA woman did say she could send me a form to fill in - something about changes to circumstances. I said I only suspected but had no proof; it was then that she said she would phone him, and was startled at the suggestion that he might not tell her the truth!

Surely, though, this 'living off savings' rule would have been for those in financial hardship, for example, those who have lost their jobs and cannot find work, and surely NOT for those who clearly have enough savings to live off fairly comfortably for 2 years plus? Where is the moral obligation to find a job?

I'm exhausted every day, am on anti-depressants for stress and anxiety, have to support our eldest who has a long term illness, and cannot believe that it the CSA thinks that it is fair for him to do not work and not to contribute at all!!!

LineRunner Sat 13-Apr-13 16:45:33

There must surely be a civil remedy against such men sitting on money but not paying any child support / maintenance. Unfortunately I don't know what it is.

Collaborate Sat 13-Apr-13 16:53:07

I'd suggest a 2 pronged attack. Apply for a lump sum under the children act to meet capital needs in lieu of maintenance, and challenge the assessment/ apply for a variation through the CSA tribunal on the grounds that 1. He's lied about his income and 2 lifestyle inconsistent with declared income.

LineRunner Sat 13-Apr-13 17:25:48

Collorate that is brilliant, thank you for the information.

Betsybob Sat 13-Apr-13 17:27:45

Thanks for the suggestions. Collaborate, I will challenge on the basis of inconsistent lifestyle. Could you let me know more about applying for a lump sum under the children act - I've googled it, but don't understand how I would proceed.

LineRunner Sat 13-Apr-13 17:29:52

BetsyBob, can you get a free half hour appointment with a family law solictor near you?

Betsybob Sat 13-Apr-13 17:56:13

Yes, my sister has recommended one. But her appointment over-ran, and she had to pay for the extra time.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 13-Apr-13 19:13:24

You can request a variation regarding undisclosed income or lifestyle inconsistent.

But I wouldn't hold out much hope

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 13-Apr-13 19:15:38

Its my understanding that you cannot apply for a lump sum in lieu if the csa are involved.

LineRunner Sat 13-Apr-13 19:34:45

Sock, but ... if the CSA refuses to make an order, then they aren't really involved, so there surely has to be a civil remedy for the children if the absent parent has funds?

STIDW Sun 14-Apr-13 00:08:10

Listen to Collaborate. As far as the CSA is concerned it up to the parent with care to apply for a variation to the basic assessment if they think other circumstances should be taken into account. The CSA are limited in the information they can collect and if you are unhappy with the outcome of a variation you can then appeal. Appeals are heard by a tribunal who have more powers to get information from the non resident parent.

Even if the CSA are involved it's possible to apply under Schedule 1, Children Act 1989 for a lump sum to cover capital expenditure for a child eg bedroom furniture. The consideration is the resources of both parents and the child so your ex would need to provide details of his finances including bank statements and it would be apparent he isn't paying any child support.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 14-Apr-13 00:08:43

Have they actually refused to do an order or just sent a nil assessment because that's normally what they do.

I could be completely wrong and this is based on personal experience but my second court application was refused on the grounds that after my ex refused to comply with the first court order I engaged the csa who came back with a £5pw (self employed rich ex who just gave the company to his gf)so the court then refused to get involved in the matter saying that as the csa had been engaged they no longer had the ability to over ride them.

It was a few years ago mind you.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 14-Apr-13 00:11:05

St is correct the csa tribunal people are much much better and can accept much more evidence .

Would like to stress that my court action was solely for maintenance and not for any lump sum one off big buys.

STIDW Sun 14-Apr-13 00:15:22

It's quite correct the courts cannot normally order child maintenance or a variation if the CSA are involved but there are exceptions. One of those exceptions is making an order under Schedule 1 CA1989 for a lump sum to meet the capital needs of a child.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 14-Apr-13 00:31:10

Do you know what else I think is shocking about the csa?

A nrp can apply for a variation to lower their payments if they have a disabled child residing with them but if the child they are paying towards who lives with the pwc is also disabled the pwc cannot get a variation to increase support.

Collaborate Sun 14-Apr-13 09:00:38

One other thought is if the AP has his own company then the CSA won't look at any dividend income unless the PWC applies for a variation. Could this be the reason for the low assessment? Do a search at companies house to see if he's a registered director.

RedHelenB Sun 14-Apr-13 11:31:01

What sort of job did he have when living with you?Is he living with someone else now? Do you have his NI number?

RedHelenB Sun 14-Apr-13 11:37:02

I know plenty of people that work for the CSA & I can assure you they are aware of the lies/stunts NRPs (and RP's for that matter!) can pull!

Might be worth contacting your MP because they will pressure the CSA to take what action they can.

If I were you I would definitely do a bit of detective work to find out what he is up to now as then you might uncover something for the CSA to workj from.

kittycat68 Tue 16-Apr-13 09:34:48

i would like to point out whatever the csa or tribunal ordr the nrp can appeal all descions made so in effect you can appeal an appeal thats refused etc. this means if he doesnt want to pay he can continually appeal. FNF and F4J have loads of pages on their websites for NRP to avoid child support. Also you have to supply hard evidence to tribunal that ex is reciveing monies. you can not just say how is he living?

betterthanever Tue 16-Apr-13 14:23:44

You said that he has a mortgage but you say you don't know his address. If you could find that out you can check if it is his and if he has a mortgage via the land registery web site and then send those papers (costing about £3) to the CSA to assist with showing that his lifestyle is not as he claims. I agree with the advice Re: your MP and I didn't know about the capital lump sum thing - thank you to hose to posted about that.

Betsybob Tue 16-Apr-13 20:24:59

Thanks very much for all your suggestions. I have contacted a local solictor specialising in family law, as they do the first consultation free. I will ask about the capital lump sum. Betterthanever, thanks for your suggestion as well - I could ask his parents for his address, and then check it out as you suggest.

ChocHobNob Tue 16-Apr-13 21:31:13

Hope you get somewhere with the advice you've been given OP

Kitty do you have links to these pages on FNF telling NRPs how to get out of paying maintenance? I've never seen any.

betterthanever Tue 16-Apr-13 22:48:09

I would be interested in those links too Kitty.

lostdad Wed 17-Apr-13 11:51:17

kittycat68 - `FNF and F4J have loads of pages on their websites for NRP to avoid child support.'

Could you provide a link to the pages you refer to on the FNF site?

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 17-Apr-13 12:02:28

Lostdad, google deadbeat dads uk and it comes up with shit loads but very few let you just browse most you have to send a request and jump through a few hoops.

Every site I've seen them on tends to have them in restricted sections

lostdad Wed 17-Apr-13 12:47:38

Done it...

Checked the first ten pages of results and most are for pages either on the Daily Mail and the `Deadbeat Dads Association' website.

Nothing for FNF.

Was surprised to read kittycat68's post - I've been a member of FNF for about 6 years now and know that it's policy that NRPs have a financial obligation to their kids. And anyone who suggests otherwise doesn't go down very well either.

Nothing in FNF's members' area either on how to avoid maintenance either. If you see anything, let me know.

ChocHobNob Wed 17-Apr-13 12:50:36

Dead beat Dads isn't FNF though.

I'd still like to see these links for FNF.

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 17-Apr-13 15:46:01

I didn't say they were that was a different poster I was just saying about the ones I had seen.

Fwiw I wouldn't expect to see it on a FNF site they may be weirdos who think its ok to take a family photo and put it on their poster than plaster it on the wall of every ss office docters surg and probation office they can find with out asking permission of the owner of the photo ( also the person in the photo) but I wouldn't expect them to encourage fraud and evading csa.

ChocHobNob Wed 17-Apr-13 15:54:37

All 3 of us asked for the links specifically on the FNF website. We didn't dispute some websites might do it but were asking about FNF.

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 17-Apr-13 16:06:16

When I put my post up I quite obviously hadn't noticed the FNF bit of the query

lostdad Wed 17-Apr-13 16:13:17

Sockreturningpixie - is it you in the picture you refer to? Bit strong dismissing FNF as a whole as `weirdos'.

I hate ALL sweeping generalisations...wink

I am not weird. Much.

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 17-Apr-13 16:29:00

grin yes me and one of my children. It was very unexpected and embarrassing when I walked into work one day to find the poster on the wall and then find out it was everywhere.

I should have got over it by now really as it was many many years ago the dc in the photo is now 20 and I know the people who did it don't have anything to do with FNF now as the org got to professional for them.

ChocHobNob Wed 17-Apr-13 16:37:18

You replied directly to a post asking for the FNF links, hence my question.

ChocHobNob Wed 17-Apr-13 16:37:41

*hence my comments.

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 17-Apr-13 16:47:16

And as I said I hadn't registered that the pp had said it was on FNF until after I posted, if its bugged you that much just ignore my post.

WhoWhatWhereWhen Wed 17-Apr-13 16:48:32

Kittycat68 please supply the links to the FNF & F4J websites that have details about avoiding child support, if you can't you should remove your post .

I think you've very much mistaken.

lostdad Thu 18-Apr-13 12:09:44

kittycat68 - `FNF and F4J have loads of pages on their websites for NRP to avoid child support'

You've copied and pasted this from another thread haven't you because you use exactly the same words there.

I asked you on that thread where the links are to the `loads of pages' from FNF that give NRPs advice on avoiding child support. You didn't respond. I'll assume you've been busy and not read my post.

But go one. I'll settle for just one page.
I'm a long-standing FNF member and you are most definitely wrong. Anyone who joins FNF and asks for advice is told that they have a responsibility to provide for their child financially.

kittycat68 Fri 19-Apr-13 09:59:44

Yes i hae been busy i have children to raise not sit on the computer all day typing!!
Lostdad: I am aware that you claim to be with FNF as i have read some of your post previously on here. Some of your views i would agree with some i would not.
Perhaps my wording is wrong when i state AVOID as it does not state on FNF this word!!! It gives suggestions and members help other NRP with SUGGESTIONS of ADJUSTING CS!!! I would also like to point out that if you type in google avoiding child support FNF website comes up!
"anyone joins FNF and asks for advice is told they have a repsonsibility to provide for their child finacially" : Yes they do! quite correct but advice is also told on how to reduce child support and quite frankly any parent that pays £10 per week etc for 2/3 children is NOT a responsible parent and members board is not available to those that to not pay the subscription fee where the members board is.

ChocHobNob Fri 19-Apr-13 16:12:55

How do you know this Kitty? Their official site pages most certainly do not contain any information of the sort.

Their advice forums are for members only and you have to pay a subscription to join, so are you or have you been a paid member?

If yes, again, I would love to see real life links to posts saying this ... because I don't think you can provide them. Because I am a member of FNF and use their forums and have never seen any such thing. Any father even hinting at looking to reduce maintenance due to spite would be flamed and told FNF is not for them if that's what they want.

I don't know if you're getting organisations or forums mixed up. There are forums out there that explain ways to limit child support. I can only speculate you are assuming that because Fathers use FNF for advice to do with child matters, that they must do the same.

Or if you have links to these posts, I'll stand corrected.

kittycat68 Sat 20-Apr-13 14:40:20

Iam not a paid up member but i have been on the members board several times.
i think that when you say that if it was due to spite they would be flammed may be maybe not ,but most nrp that are on FNF dont say it is for spite! or revenge or and other of these type words beacuase they want the help!! I personally know of several men who use FNF and openly admit that they use this site to read up on ways to get back at there ex partners. They also admit to asking for advice but in not telling the truth or whole picture mearly to learn of ways either by court action or csa. Whilst FNF may have been set up and run for genuine parents with issues like this it is very much used by people to get at there ex partners and to say that it is not and that only genuine cases and people on your site use this is clearly a very deluded view.

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