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Police caution as a teenager...will it show on a CRB?

(56 Posts)
Beensostupid Thu 07-Mar-13 19:32:52

Namechanged as very embarrassed.

Please don't judge me but as a teenager (14 or 15) I was caught shoplifting! I was given a police caution at the local station...I feel sick just writing this! Anyway 17 years on and I would like to apply for a job that I think will need an enhanced crb...will it show up? I really, really don't want to raise this with them as I feel so embarrassed by it! TIA

oddslippers Thu 07-Mar-13 19:35:38

I don't think it will show up however please be honest with them, they'll see that you are ashamed and it will have no bearing on a recruitment decision however I'd you don't mention it and it does show up it will look very bad

scarlettsmummy2 Thu 07-Mar-13 19:38:23

No, it shouldn't show up! Firstly the youth justice system, which you would have been in at that time is separate anyway, and also I imagine it is spent.

Beensostupid Thu 07-Mar-13 19:43:10

I just really don't want to talk about it to anyone! My parents have never mentioned it since but they were so angry with me at the time. My husband knows and is completely fine with it! I just get so upset by just thinking about it...I don't think I am physically able to talk about it to a stranger that I want to employ me!

RightUpMyRue Thu 07-Mar-13 19:43:21

Neither of my cautions received as a teen showed up on my CRBs.

scottishmummy Thu 07-Mar-13 19:43:26

Yes if enhanced crb to work with vulnerable adults and /or children then caution will show

Enhanced Disclosure (as defined under Section 115(6) of the Police Act 1997). It will give:

The prescribed details of every conviction (including a spent conviction), caution, warning and reprimand which is recorded in central records, and...
any information which, in the opinion of a chief officer, might be relevant for the purpose and ought to be included in the certificate, or it will...
state that there is no such matter or information, and where appropriate...
details of whether the applicant is banned from working with children or vulnerable adult.

NatashaBee Thu 07-Mar-13 19:44:45

I believe it will show - I have friends for whom juvenile convictions have shown up on an enhanced CRB. Probably best to be up front with the company about it rather than surprise them when they get the CRB back.

scottishmummy Thu 07-Mar-13 19:44:59

There is no such thing as regards an enhanced crb
If I were you I'd disclose in advance of the crb

RightUpMyRue Thu 07-Mar-13 19:45:58

I have two enhanced CRBs, nothing on either of them.

I assume this is because the cautions were received when I was a minor as were yours OP.

scottishmummy Thu 07-Mar-13 19:46:36

Yes Enhanced shows everything,no such thing as spent with enhanced crb
Cautions,any police contact will show up
I'd suggest tell in advance

Beensostupid Thu 07-Mar-13 19:57:58

Thank you all for you advice.

I am just very cross with myself for stealing something when I had money in my purse to buy it! I think because the rest of the 'gang' were taking things why shouldn't I give it a try!!

Is there anyway I could find out if its on there?

I would be devastated if I raised it and then to have the all clear!!

Right-I am very envious of you right now! smile really hope I get the all clear too.

scottishmummy Thu 07-Mar-13 20:20:33

Will job def need an enhanced crb?Level of disclosure affect what disclosed
Some links disclosure NHS crb

crb faq

Beensostupid Thu 07-Mar-13 20:37:36

Yes, nearly 100% sure!

Thank you Scottish for your links!

prh47bridge Thu 07-Mar-13 23:36:24

If it is an enhanced CRB check it should be on there. If it isn't that is just because they've failed to recognise that it refers to you. I'm afraid there is no way of finding out in advance whether or not it will be listed.

This caution is unlikely to have any bearing on whether or not you get the job as it isn't relevant for most jobs. Even if it is relevant I would expect an employer to ignore a youthful caution like this. The biggest problem will be if you don't disclose it yourself and it then shows up on the CRB check. That could raise questions in their minds as to what else you are hiding.

If it were me I would tell them. That way there won't be any problems if it does show up on the disclosure. Yes it is a little embarrassing if it doesn't show but try not to worry about that. You may be surprised to find out how many people have youthful cautions. The police caution around 280,000 under 18s a year.

Fallenangle Thu 07-Mar-13 23:53:18

An employer should only take into account relevent information. Application forms for schools ask for details of all convictions including cautions. If you don't put it on there and you get the job you can be sacked simply for not putting it on the form.

Flojobunny Thu 07-Mar-13 23:55:31

No because there is no such thing as a crb!

DBS grin

cumfy Sat 09-Mar-13 22:49:36

Yahoo answers <shudders>, suggests joining a voluntary organisation that would require an enhanced CRB.

I guess the time would be too tight, but if you really want to know it might be an idea.

Beensostupid Sun 10-Mar-13 10:01:49

Hi all, thank you for all your advice! Although I heard what I really didn't want too...I will just have to bite the bullet and be honest! So embarrassing but I did the crime so will have to live with it! Thanks all again.

purplewithred Sun 10-Mar-13 10:12:11

I know it's embarrassing, but I am with a voluntary organisation which requires an advanced crb and you might be surprised at how many fine upstanding members of society have this kind of thing attached to their teenage years. Your potential employers will have seen it and worse before, and being honest by disclosing it upfront is definitely the mature thing to do.

cumfy Sun 10-Mar-13 12:01:14

Curiously, this advice, suggests that both the police and the CRB can exercise discretion in disclosing spent convictions on enhanced checks.

Sounds very odd, but the individual claims to be bona fide solicitor.

cumfy Sun 10-Mar-13 12:04:02

And I suppose if that really is the case hmm, then you could ask the police whether they will or won't use their discretion in this case.

NorbertDentressangle Sun 10-Mar-13 12:10:23

I agree with those who say just be honest and tell them in advance of the CRB.

We've just interviewed someone at work who didn't disclose a minor driving offence and their job offer is in jeopardy, not because of the offence, but because she didn't disclose it beforehand which suggests issues of trust, honesty etc.

(the job doesn't involve working with children but is in an environment where there are lots of young people around IYSWIM)

HorribleMother Sun 10-Mar-13 12:14:17

About 1/3 of the working-age population have some kind of criminal record.

sneezecakesmum Sun 10-Mar-13 12:25:28

Scottishmummy is right if it is enhanced. Have had lots of CRBs done as a nurse. Be honest if it is enhanced everyone makes mistakes.

prh47bridge Sun 10-Mar-13 21:55:18

The post to which Cumfy links is misleading. I'm afraid the person providing advice there does not appear to fully understand the process. A CRB check always includes all information held on the PNC. That should include all convictions, cautions, reprimands and final warnings. Where the police do have discretion is over the disclosure of other information they hold on file, e.g. details of investigations that have not led to a criminal record.

cumfy Sun 10-Mar-13 23:39:34

Is the advice that the CRB has discretion (contingent on the nature of the requesting organisation) also inaccurate prh ?

It just seems paradoxical that someone who lied would potentially gain an advantage.

Surely part of the whole process is that the applicants account tallies with the CRB record, and there is therefore little or no point in the CRB having discretion.

prh47bridge Sun 10-Mar-13 23:49:20

Yes, that is also inaccurate. The CRB disclose everything. It is up to the employer/voluntary organisation to decide whether any information disclosed is relevant, not for the CRB to decide on their behalf.

As you say, there is little or no point in the CRB having discretion. Indeed, if they did it would open up all kinds of scenarios where they may face liability through incorrectly deciding that information was not relevant.

LaurieBlueBell Mon 11-Mar-13 13:10:20

My caution for shoplifting (bag of peanuts blush) has never shown on12 years worth of foster carers enhanced CRB checks. I've also had enhanced checks for 3 other roles which also didn't show my caution.

prh47bridge Mon 11-Mar-13 13:32:53

All that proves is that either your caution is not recorded on the PNC or it hasn't been identified as relating to you for some reason. As I posted previously, a CRB check (standard or enhanced) will always show every conviction, caution, reprimand and final warning recorded against your record on the PNC.

botandhothered Mon 11-Mar-13 14:31:13

Mmm! I also have/had a juvenile caution for shoplifting.
I Was told at the time that after the age of 18 it would be wiped from my record. This was 34 yrs ago.
From the age of 18 I have had many enhanced CRB checks, it has NEVER come up.

cumfy Mon 11-Mar-13 14:45:43

There are interesting gaps between "theory" and practice here.

I think it is entirely unclear whether a spent conviction/caution will turn up or not.

botandhothered Mon 11-Mar-13 14:50:27

Actually just read the askthepolice website.

It says Juvenile cautions are considered spent immediately.
It states that if asked on an application if you have any convictions or cautions you CAN state NO!

botandhothered Mon 11-Mar-13 15:00:28

Ooops! Didn't read down to the bottom of the page it says that you MUST disclose it on an enhanced CRB.
That it WILL show on a CRB.
Still doesn't explain why it has never shown up on mine in 20 yrs, though!

prh47bridge Mon 11-Mar-13 18:20:40

A spent conviction/caution should turn up on a CRB check. That is the whole point of the check. However, any computer system is only as good as the information fed into it. If the PNC does not have your conviction/caution recorded or is unable to connect it to you (e.g. due to name and address changes or incorrect details being recorded on the system) it will not appear on your disclosure.

scottishmummy Mon 11-Mar-13 19:10:34

Cautions Considered spent for non enhanced crb.enhanced shows all police activity Inc caution
The accuracy of pnc data is factor,but I wouldn't hope for incorrect /missing data as strategy
difficult as it is I would disclose caution.rather than not and be caught out

HorribleMother Mon 11-Mar-13 19:14:21

Also cumfy it's up to individual employers how they use the info. Most larger employers are sensible and should follow the guidelines they are supposed to, but a lot of others will take a knee jerk reaction to the sight of any caution/conviction, no matter how arguably irrelevant.

botandhothered Mon 11-Mar-13 20:27:51

It's worrying that 3 people on here, including myself have had multiple CRB checks that don't show our juvenile cautions.

I have always thought that a teenage shoplifting caution was considered irrelevant by CRB to the positions I applied for, since it has NEVER, in 20 yrs, shown up. Especially as I lived under the same police force, in the same town, and have not changed my name.

If , as you suggest,it is due to a mistake, rather than a deliberate omission , that is very scary.

How many people wth convictions/ cautions of violence/child abuse are slipping through the net?

prh47bridge Mon 11-Mar-13 22:56:40

Scottishmummy - ALL CRB checks show spent cautions. That is why a CRB check is only available where the employer is entitled to ask exempted questions (which, translated into English, means they are allowed to ask about spent convictions, cautions, etc.).

If you are in Scotland (as your username suggests) the system is slightly different. Disclosure Scotland will provide a basic disclosure which only covers unspent convictions. However, both standard and enhanced disclosures include spent convictions, cautions, etc. This matches the standard and enhanced disclosures under the English system.

Information on what is and isn't included in a CRB disclosure can be found here.

prh47bridge Mon 11-Mar-13 23:11:46

botandhothered - It would be great if the disclosure system always gave correct information. It doesn't. That is one of the reasons employers are advised to have other safeguards in place. We know that around 2,000 disclosures a year contain inaccurate information resulting in the subject successfully disputing the disclosure. In those cases the disclosure wrongly alleges that the subject has received convictions, cautions, etc. There is no way of knowing but I suspect a similar number of disclosures fail to contain information that should be present. In your case, once your caution failed to show up on your first disclosure it was a fair bet it would not show up on any subsequent disclosures.

HorribleMother Tue 12-Mar-13 10:25:48

CRBs can only pick up folk who have been caught, anyway, they only tell you about the past not the future. They are never going to be perfect. A crumb of comfort is that Folk who have convictions/cautions for sex offenses get entered into the system in more ways (get their names on more lists), though, and their crimes are taken more seriously, so less likely to slip thru the net. It's stuff like Drunk & Disorderly/Trespassing/Shoplifting, especially only cautions, that might get missed (most common juvenile crimes).

It has often been pointed out that if Ian Huntley simply declined to put down his previous names, he too would slip thru the current checks (probably).

A relative was asked to volunteer for a youth group; I advised him to disclose a juvenile caution in advance of the CRB form. He was mortified "But they told me it would disappear from my record!" I had to explain that the rules have changed. sad Luckily the youth group organiser was completely nonplussed.

AWomanOfsubstance Tue 12-Mar-13 17:24:46

I'm not quite clear on what other information would be in an enhanced CRB - would it include details of arrests which resulted in no further action - ie no charges brought?

prh47bridge Tue 12-Mar-13 22:29:06

An enhanced CRB includes any non-conviction information the police consider relevant. So that could include arrests resulting in no further action or investigations that didn't lead to an arrest. It may also include ongoing investigations involving the subject. Sometimes the additional information in an enhanced disclosure will not be released to the subject.

Note that the police do have discretion over the additional information included in an enhanced disclosure. However, neither the police nor the CRB has any discretion over whether or not to disclose convictions, cautions, etc. This may change following a recent ruling by the appeal court but the government is currently in the process of appealing and, until that is resolved, the current rules continue to apply.

AWomanOfsubstance Wed 13-Mar-13 00:31:59

Thanks for that prh.

Can i just ask another question? I can't tell from the DBS guidance for which jobs an employer is entitled to ask for an enhanced check. My situation is that I may be offered a position in the financial services industry in a responsible person post. Several years ago a previous employer made a malicious accusation against me of fraud to the police which resulted in my arrest. Investigations were made which resulted in no further action as it was clear that there were absolutely no grounds for the accusations. It would appear however that if an enhanced DBS check is carried out that the arrest record is likely to be disclosed. A standard DBS check would not disclose this information. Do you know which type of report can be requested for this kind of job?

HorribleMother Wed 13-Mar-13 11:19:47

Just ring the DBS, I think, to be sure.

I used to do CRB checks (now DBS?): you could only ask for enhanced CRB IF the post involved routinely working with vulnerable people. So doesn't sound like your Fin.Services job would fit that description.

prh47bridge Wed 13-Mar-13 13:16:09

I believe positions in financial services are only subject to standard disclosures. If the police concluded that the accusations were baseless there is a good chance your arrest would not show up even on an enhanced check.

scottishmummy Thu 14-Mar-13 19:03:39

Enhanced crb is usually when working with vulnerable adults,children
Wouldn't ordinarily expect finance to be subject to enhanced crb
But if it were finances in health/social care maybe would be enhanced crb?

lljkk Fri 15-Mar-13 08:05:09

That's a good point, I'm interviewing for an information analyst position with NHS and I'll need enhanced CRB even though I'll have no face-to-face contact with patients, but might have access to confidential records for vulnerables.

AWomanOfsubstance Fri 15-Mar-13 10:51:37

Thanks for the information all who have replied.

The post is with a mortgage lender so not involving children or vulnerable adults so it would seem that only standard disclosure can be requested.

That puts my mind at rest as, though the police completely exonerated me, such allegations are very embarassing in a job like mine and might prompt mutterings from some of "no smoke without fire".

Wacksy17 Tue 02-Jul-13 16:40:32

GOOD NEWS !
the law has just been changed so that reprimands given to infants will be filtered off criminal records checks two years later on matters such as shoplifting, but not on more serious crimes –
if given a caution as an adult these filtered off after 6 years

Also, if you have one conviction only say for shoplifting and were not them to prison for it, that is filtered off after 11 years

If you were just questioned about this it is possible, if unlikely, that this will come up as enhanced disclosure within the police discretion on a criminal records check but it is possible to object to this to try and get it removed

it is also possible to apply the cautions/reprimands to be removed before the 2/6 year period. If you can show exceptional circumstances

Wacksy17 Tue 02-Jul-13 16:40:47

GOOD NEWS !
the law has just been changed so that reprimands given to infants will be filtered off criminal records checks two years later on matters such as shoplifting, but not on more serious crimes –
if given a caution as an adult these filtered off after 6 years

Also, if you have one conviction only say for shoplifting and were not them to prison for it, that is filtered off after 11 years

If you were just questioned about this it is possible, if unlikely, that this will come up as enhanced disclosure within the police discretion on a criminal records check but it is possible to object to this to try and get it removed

it is also possible to apply the cautions/reprimands to be removed before the 2/6 year period. If you can show exceptional circumstances

hamilton75 Tue 02-Jul-13 18:25:21

DH had a caution at 18 for being drunk and disorderly (20 years ago). He applied for his PGCE and was worried it would show up so he got in contact with the local station beforehand. There was nothing at all on the police computer and the police assured him it wouldn't show as it was so long ago/spent.

It didn't, came back clean as a whistle so I'm not sure why some people are saying the OPs would still show. Surely different forces must have the same procedure?

hifi Tue 02-Jul-13 19:06:17

when we were being approved as adopters,DH had 3 sheets returned with all his violations from the age of 15.this was 3 years ago,his offences were33 years ago.

ItStartedInRome Tue 02-Jul-13 20:59:22

OP not sure where some of those seeking to help you get their 'knowledge' from. Prh47 clearly has actual knowledge on this subject.

'Spent' convictions/cautions/warnings/reprimands are dealt with under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. In all likelihood therefore your caution is spent and does not need to be declared by you to potential employer. There are however exceptions. These include working with kids, vulnerable adults, some senior financial positions, law enforcement and legal jobs. It would be usual for your original application form (if there was one) to ask whether you had any convictions/cautions to declare and would state whether or not the ROA 1974 applied.

An enhanced check on your criminal record should show everything including this caution. Prh47 covered many reasons why sometimes they come back clear. I'd add that often individual police stations didn't record things properly, years ago there wasn't a centralised system, many juveniles who were told off/given a fright by police didn't actually receive a formal caution/reprimand/warning and understandably get confused with the terminology.

prh47bridge Tue 02-Jul-13 23:23:55

Thank you ItStartedInRome.

Just to bring this thread up to date, the information posted by Wacksy17 is broadly correct. The government decided to respond to the appeal court ruling I referred to previously by introducing some filtering.

There is a list of 751 offences that will never be removed from a DBS check. For other offences the rules are:

- If the offence resulted in a caution it will be removed 6 years after the date of the caution. This period is reduced to 2 years if you were under 18 at the time of the offence.

- If the offence resulted in a conviction it will be removed 11 years after the date of conviction provided it is your only offence and you did not receive a custodial sentence. This period is reduced to 5.5 years if you were under 18 at the time of the offence.

The government's official announcement including links to the rules and the current list of offences that will never be removed can be found here.

StuBlack Fri 02-Aug-13 21:03:44

Thanks for (at last) an authoritative answer in this. i do sometimes wonder how people find the time to go on these forums without finding the time to make sure what they post is accurate/helpful.

Couple of questions if I may :

1. Does a 'caution' include a 'reprimand' that I understand is a less severe warning ?

2. How joined-up are today's reporting systems, I.e. if my son got a warning (reprimand I think) last week in deepest Cormwall, how likely is this to make its way to a centralised system that holds the data for enhanced DBSs ?

Thanks

prh47bridge Sat 03-Aug-13 00:02:01

Reprimands and warnings are treated the same way as cautions for DBS checks. In essence they replace cautions for those aged 17 or under.

The centralised system is the PNC - Police National Computer - which has been in operation since 1974. It holds over 9 million personal records each of which should show all previous arrests and convictions including the outcome of each case. A record should have been created for your son when he was arrested. Any system depends on humans to input data so it is possible that nothing was entered or that the information is garbled but the likelihood is that the information is there and hence available for DBS checks.

The good news is that your son's reprimand or warning will no longer appear on DBS checks in two years time unless it is for one of the offences that is never filtered.

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