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Paternity test - can the mother be compelled to allow DNA test?

(102 Posts)
BerylStreep Wed 10-Oct-12 19:46:23

Just what the title says really.

Have a friend with a young baby. Boyfriend wanted nothing to do with my friend once he found out she was pregnant. Claimed he didn't think the baby was his.

He is not on the birth certificate, has never met the baby (doesn't even know the name), but has now made contact saying he wants parental responsibility.

The guy is violent, with mh problems, and my friend wants nothing to do with him, let alone letting him access to the baby.

My question is, can she be forced to submit the baby to a paternity test?

TheAngelshavetheOod Wed 10-Oct-12 19:47:15

If he went to court of access court could order it.

BerylStreep Wed 10-Oct-12 20:30:08

That's what she is worried about.

Can anyone with any expertise advise whether the courts are likely to order her to submit to a test, given his history of violence and mh issues?

tutu100 Wed 10-Oct-12 20:32:53

Is she trying to get maintainence out of him? What I'm asking is, why does he want the parternity test? Are the CSA chasing him, or has he just decided he wants to know. I'm presuming as he's not given a toss up till now there must be some alteria motive.

BerylStreep Wed 10-Oct-12 20:39:30

No, she doesn't want maintenance - nor has she had any in the past. No CSA involvement either.

He had been harassing her, and she got a court order for him to stop. I think he is now trying to claim parental responsibility as a way of harassing her further, but this time through the legal route.

I don't think he is remotely interested in the baby itself - just as a means of getting at my friend.

SS wrote to her advising that he had made some very worrying disclosures and that she was never to give him unsupervised access to the baby and that he posed a danger to it. Not that she was ever, in a million years, going to voluntarily allow him near the baby anyway.

When you see it written down, it seems very JK, but my friend really isn't like that.

If he goes to court asking for a DNA test then his MH issues and past won't really come into it. He has a right to the test and that is all the court will deal with.

The other stuff will come later at contact hearings etc

avenueone Wed 10-Oct-12 21:24:49

Yes he can take her to court for a DNA test to be ordered but as far as I know not just for that it would have to be part of a contact hearing i.e. him asking for contact. He would only get parental responsibility once he had an attachment to the child, he doesn't just get that if the DNA test proves he is the father.
Contact would be given most probably at a contact centre to start with. It is unlikely he will not get contact.

BerylStreep Wed 10-Oct-12 21:34:52

Avenue, thanks for your reply.

Not what I wanted to hear though. sad

tutu100 Wed 10-Oct-12 21:48:39

As others have said he can take her to court and force her to comply with a DNA test, but for him to gain access would be quite a long process and your friend would be able to put her objections and reasons for them to the court.

Tell your friend to try not to worry too much and to take things one step at a time. Him asking for a DNA test is very different to him taking her to court for one which will cost him money (would that be liekly to put him off?)

BerylStreep Wed 10-Oct-12 21:57:10

Not sure if it would put him off - I suspect he may be on legal aid. I don't even know if this would be covered by legal aid?

She's really worried about this, to the point where she is considering moving country to get away from him. sad

She says her biggest regret is that she ever told him she was pregnant.

AThingInYourLife Wed 10-Oct-12 21:57:41

So can any man force any woman with a child to have that child's DNA tested?

He is not named on the birth certificate, so there is no reason for anyone to believe he is this child's father.

Under what law is he entitled to this test?

Is it because he once slept with her?

If a woman sleeps with a man does he then have the right to demand any of her children are tested?

It just seems kind of weird.

Surely she can just deny that she slept with him at the time the child was conceived and claim she has no idea who the father is?

TheEnthusiasticTroll Wed 10-Oct-12 22:20:04

Under s.8 of children act 1989 a specific order for DNA test may be made by the court if parentage is being disputed. So they can force a DNA test, but the issue of parental responsibility and contact are very different and would require him to prove a has an interest or attachment. In such a case I would suspect supervised contact. I think avenues response was very spot on.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Wed 10-Oct-12 22:21:38

It is a bit of a minefield that covers many legislation, regarding the human tissue act, children's act and a few others I can't think offvthevtop of my head.

AThingInYourLife Wed 10-Oct-12 22:21:55

"if parentage is being disputed."

But what evidence has to be produced to support the dispute?

If he says he shagged her around the time the child was conceived and she denies it, who will be believed?

titchy Wed 10-Oct-12 22:22:32

Can she find a similar aged baby to borrow......?

TheEnthusiasticTroll Wed 10-Oct-12 22:27:50

I have no idea, but I suspect if has got as far a court then his solicitor will be secure as much anecdotal and circumstantial evidence he can. I have no idea what would constitute that but if there is no evidence I highly suspect that is where an Oder for DNA will be made. I don't have any direct experience of this, I only know this through discussion on the matter with an academic on my course.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Wed 10-Oct-12 22:32:27

Mind you saying that, I suspect it would happen if it where deemed to be in the child's best interest.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Wed 10-Oct-12 22:33:00

Mind you saying that, I suspect it would happen if it where deemed to be in the child's best interest.

AThingInYourLife Wed 10-Oct-12 22:35:00

So you reckon that (in theory) any man could claim to be the father of my children and force a DNA test?

It seems kind of barbaric, if that is the case.

I guess this kind of thing is a reason to be careful about telling someone you're pregnant with their child.

You've more deniability if you've never informed them. Easier to cook dates etc.

BerylStreep Wed 10-Oct-12 22:35:47

They were in a relationship for about 9 or 10 months, not a one off shag. The thing is that he was so insultingly adamant that the baby was not his when she told him she was pg, but yet now he is claiming the baby is his.

My friend is torn between wanting to protect herself and her DC, or basically portraying herself to him and court that she is a bit of a slapper who doesn't know who the father may be, which certainly isn't the case.

Titchy, believe me, I have considered suggesting that blush.

colditz Wed 10-Oct-12 22:36:51

If I were her, I'd tell him that it definitely wasn't his, it was an unknown bouncer I'd shagged on a night out when I'd told him I was working.

Cos he'd probably believe it. Abusive men tend to believe all their ex's are slags who only dumped them to 'go with someone else'

If that doesn't work, I'd second Titchy's suggestion.

I'm not normally dishonest, but family law in this country does fuck all to protect children, and this man sounds seriously unhinged.

colditz Wed 10-Oct-12 22:37:44

I'd rather be thought a slapper than subject my child to a man who only wants to use him/her to punish me. That would be SOOOOO dangerous sad

TheEnthusiasticTroll Wed 10-Oct-12 22:41:51

Could your friend contact the social worker who advised this man should not have contact, as im sure this testimony would have to have some weight.

I very much doubt his chances of taking it to court, would he really invest that much interest and finance into it? Sounds to me like he is just trying to keep her scared of him.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Wed 10-Oct-12 22:43:32

Mind you the an other baby would not work as both parents normal provide DNA for a paternity test I think sad

BrittaPerry Wed 10-Oct-12 22:47:01

Don't replace the baby. That is perjury and she could be put in prison, which is no good for anyone.

colditz Wed 10-Oct-12 22:51:22

Oh, then she shouldn't do it if there is a possibility that she will be caught.

But for fuck's sake, wouldn't it occur to the court that there must be a very good reason for a woman to disappear with a baby and not seek any support, contact or money from the father?

colditz Wed 10-Oct-12 22:52:14

But I'd definitely lie to him and tell him it's a bouncer's baby. She can't be breaking the law for that, surely? It might put him off the dna teszt.

AThingInYourLife Wed 10-Oct-12 22:53:03

Agree with colditz

TheEnthusiasticTroll Wed 10-Oct-12 23:04:07

I would defiantly do that too colditz

PedanticPanda Wed 10-Oct-12 23:05:36

He could go to court and apply for paternal rights.

prh47bridge Wed 10-Oct-12 23:39:34

Samples are taken from both parents for a DNA test to establish paternity. If the OP tried to substitute a different child it is very likely that the DNA test would show that she was not the mother of the child.

A court-directed DNA test is used where parentage is disputed and one party does not want the test carried out. It is not inevitable that the courts would order a test but they take the view that it is generally best that a child's true identity is established as soon as possible unless there are exceptional circumstances.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Wed 10-Oct-12 23:42:44

Would this mans physiological control and conduct towards the mother be considered exceptional circumstances?

GoldShip Wed 10-Oct-12 23:46:03

How the hell is it barbaric?

He has the right to know if he's the dad. And the baby has a right to know who his father is.

monsterchild Wed 10-Oct-12 23:46:24

The CHILD has a right to know who his/her father is. For many many reasons. One of them is medical history.

A DNA test is a swab inside the cheek, hardly barbaric.

I'm sorry this guy is a loser, but him just claiming to be the father makes it disputed. And if he's really such a crazy person (and it sounds like SS has agreed) it seems unlikely that the court would disregard that information.

GoldShip Wed 10-Oct-12 23:47:26

Some of the replies in here are actually shocking.

So you think she should lie about who is the baby's father? What does she say to the child when it's older?

GoldShip Wed 10-Oct-12 23:47:48

Agree with monsterchild

AThingInYourLife Wed 10-Oct-12 23:51:28

I think this child should have the right not to know who his father is.

The fetishisation of sperm donors under men's rights agendas is bullshit.

This man is no more a father than I am.

He's dangerous and crazy and he should have no rights here.

He made his choice when he denied paternity.

It should not be possible for a man to hold a mother to ransom by creating a "dispute" about paternity just because he feels like it.

I think it would be entirely moral to lie in this situation.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Wed 10-Oct-12 23:53:55

Agree athing 100%

GoldShip Wed 10-Oct-12 23:55:15

The child will not appreciate that as he/she gets older. There will be questions that will need answering.

It should not be possible for a man to hold a mother to ransom by creating a "dispute" about paternity just because he feels like it.
Lots of women do it. Is it okay then?

It's okay for a woman to force a man to find out if he's the dad, but a man can't force it?

Actually laughable the double standards on here.

Viviennemary Wed 10-Oct-12 23:55:27

I'm a bit shocked too. Surely a man has the right to know if a child is his. It usually takes two to have a baby. But I can see why a Mother would be concerned if the Father is a villain.

CailinDana Wed 10-Oct-12 23:55:35

This sounds to me like the abuser's classic empty threat. I would bet a large amount of money that he won't pursue it. Abusers always use children to get at women because they know it's their weak point. If he sees your friend is scared this will give him the satisfaction he needs so she needs to treat this like the pathetic attempt at bullshittery that it is.

It might be worth her going to a solicitor and getting a letter that says if he does pursue a DNA test and is proven to be the father then he will be liable for X amount of child support every week, thank you very much. See how long he pursues it then.

All contact should be through solicitor's letter - no phone calls, texts or any personal communication to feed his sick desire to upset her.

Collaborate Wed 10-Oct-12 23:55:40

The mother should tell the truth and accept the child is his. If she disputes it, the court will order a DNA test and she will be found out. If she refuses to submit to testing the judge will assume that he is the father. End of.

GoldShip Wed 10-Oct-12 23:56:31

And what about if the child gets older and more expensive, the woman wants money and goes to the CSA. is that okay then?

GoldShip Wed 10-Oct-12 23:57:15

t might be worth her going to a solicitor and getting a letter that says if he does pursue a DNA test and is proven to be the father then he will be liable for X amount of child support every week, thank you very much. See how long he pursues it then.

Good suggestion.

BerylStreep Thu 11-Oct-12 00:01:28

Cailin, there has been no communication whatsoever since before the baby was born. He made written threats to set fire to her and her house and her unborn baby, and as a result there has been a court order in place preventing any contact.

I think this is why he is trying to assert parental rights - to harass her through the legal route.

CailinDana Thu 11-Oct-12 00:02:02

The friend knows he's the father, and can tell the child that as and when it's appropriate. There was no mention of her not telling the child, although I could see why she might not want to. SS have said he is not to have contact, and there is no question, so far, of child support, so it seems to me that the friend keeping the ex at arm's length is the completely sensible thing to do.

He knows he's the father too, of course. He just denied it when it suited him and has now changed his mind when he sees an opportunity to get some sick satisfaction out of seeing his ex squirm. This does not read to me as some poor loving father done out of a relationship with his baby - it seems like a clear cut case of a violent shit trying to manipulate someone because he's bored.

CailinDana Thu 11-Oct-12 00:03:17

X-post Beryl, I suspected as much. Your poor friend sad

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:03:32

What he's doing is absolutely disgusting, but still don't think she should deny him as the father.

I think she would have a strong case for him not seeing the child anyway if the threats and everything are true.

If he's as bad as you say, he won't follow through with the courts anway

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:04:57

There was no mention of her not telling the child

I was referring to the poster who said 'tell him the child's a bouncers not his'

BerylStreep Thu 11-Oct-12 00:05:59

Goldship, I don't know - I think he may well be mad enough to pursue it for the hell of it, especially if it is being funded by legal aid.

CailinDana Thu 11-Oct-12 00:06:07

The thing is Goldship I would be very reluctant to give him an inch. Admitting he's the father will then give him a way in - he'll start banging on about contact etc just to keep a grip over the friend. If he has to deal with all the legal shit of proving paternity, without any satisfaction from the friend, then he might hopefully get bored and move on to some other poor victim.

Beryl in your friend's shoes I would consider moving and hiding. He sounds like a complete nutcase.

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:08:06

Then let him do it, it'll bite him in the arse when CSA start chasing him. I think the mere mention of that will have him running

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:08:43

Re the threats. Has she told the police? I'd be getting some form of injunction to protect her and the child

TheEnthusiasticTroll Thu 11-Oct-12 00:10:49

Double standards goldship, I think you have just displayed that your self.

No one is saying two wrongs make a right, this is not about a woman forcing a man to take DNA for child support.

All parents should support their children and all children have a right to know who their parent is. but if it is not within the child's best interest to be involved in a relationship with that parent, because they are violent and abusive, then that should posses its own merits and rightfully so and should not be compared to maintained battles.

Ideally no one would lie, but as a sole responsible adult for an innocent defenceless child at the hands of a vile and violent man I would take the risks and lie, however I would hope that justice would prevail, but sadly justice does not prevail at all times and so desperation to protect often over rides and I think that is what is being indicated here.

Yes some children are better off away from parents like that wether a mother or a father.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Thu 11-Oct-12 00:13:10

Beryl, re him getting legal aid, so easier to get to court... My ds got la for advice and assistance, but not for court when his ex withheld contact for no reason (she didn't like the new gf). LA don't splash out for the sake of it, and your friend already has an injunction against him

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:14:10

How is that? confused

I see what you're saying, but suggestions like 'say the child's is the bouncers' are ridiculous and doing nothing but creating trouble further down the line.

If this is some massive game for him, then I'd suggest playing him at it legally. Rather than telling lies and complicating the child's life in the future by 'who's the daddy' arguments.

BerylStreep Thu 11-Oct-12 00:15:47

Police are aware of the threats.

I honestly fear that he is so unhinged that he would carry out his threat to set fire to the house.

It is hard though, because my friend is settled in her home, has invested in it, family contacts nearby etc. She is completely torn between trying to protect herself from him, and maintaining any form of normality.

monsterchild Thu 11-Oct-12 00:16:23

I'm thinking there's nothing she can do to stop him being crazy. He's going to do what he's going to do.

the short answer is that if he claims paternity and files a case, yes, the court can order a DNA test done against the mother's wishes. But if she knows he's the father, why dispute it? Especially if he's using it to punish her? It won't make a lick of difference to the court if he's the named dad if he is actually batshit crazy and she can show that (and it sounds like she can!), he won't get custody.

It will, as GoldShip pointed out, make him liable for support, and that's always good for kids. Just because he pays doesn't mean he can see the kid!

AThingInYourLife Thu 11-Oct-12 00:16:38

The "double standards" in relation to parentage are a result of biology, not women being bitches.

How can a man have a "right" to know if any child in the world is his?

That means all men have an open right to insist on DNA tests on any and all children if they claim to have slept with their mother around the time if conception.

I believe that women have the right not to disclose who they've slept with (or been raped by) and/or what contraception was used.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Thu 11-Oct-12 00:19:50

In my opinion some time down the line this will all have died down and the I made the cession to protect you from a violent and abusive diction may or may not hold, but I would rather dice with that than the child's safety.

I agree with you in principle, but what I would do in reality is different, if I where in this situation, as sadly things do not always pan out for the child's interest. If he isn't going to take it to court anyway like we both suspect then it makes very little difference.

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:20:11

^How can a man have a "right" to know if any child in the world is his?

That means all men have an open right to insist on DNA tests on any and all children if they claim to have slept with their mother around the time if conception.^
Wow. Just... Wow.

He has a right to know if a child that COULD be his, is or not.
The child also has a right to know if a man that could be his, is or not.

BerylStreep Thu 11-Oct-12 00:20:45

AThing - I agree. It would be different if she was trying to force him into being a father, or extracting money, but she wants nothing to do with him. He has never seen the child, does not even know its name or when it was born, and other than harassing her, has not had any relationship with her for over a year.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Thu 11-Oct-12 00:21:30

He is a fucking monster by the sounds of it.

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:21:35

And before this turns into a feminist argument, its nothing to do with a man having power over a woman. It's about parentage.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Thu 11-Oct-12 00:23:13

No it is about a man using his parentage to have control over a woman. Nothing feminist about it.

monsterchild Thu 11-Oct-12 00:24:19

Athing, you're forgetting the child's right to know these things. I can see how when they are little this isn't a big issue, but as they grow up it can become an issue. especially with medical histories and treatments. Why deny a child the right to know their entire family?

Why don't I have a right to my family's medical history? Shouldn't I get to know if I should be screened for breast cancer earlier than recommended? shouldn't I know if I am susceptible to having or passing on to MY children Primary pulmonary hypertension? Shouldn't I get to know if depression or schizophrenia is in my family history?

BerylStreep Thu 11-Oct-12 00:25:09

My friend has never disputed parentage.

What she is concerned about, is that if she is forced to submit to a DNA test, the result of which will prove he is the father, then this will force the issue of parental responsibility and contact.

She wants nothing to do with him.

AThingInYourLife Thu 11-Oct-12 00:25:59

"He has a right to know if a child that COULD be his, is or not. "

So any man has the right to demand DNA tests on any children born to a woman he slept with 6-12 months before the child was born?

How delightful.

BerylStreep Thu 11-Oct-12 00:26:36

Sadly, she is already aware that her baby may have a genetic predisposition to mh issues, from experience.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Thu 11-Oct-12 00:27:07

I doubt very much that knowing a man like this will make much difference, what usefull information is he likely to disclose. most people wether estranged or not do not investigate teir family lineage to such an extend for Health screenings.

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:28:11

AThing - how do you feel about a woman demanding paternity tests on any man she had sex with at time of conception?

TheEnthusiasticTroll Thu 11-Oct-12 00:29:03

It is irrelevant goldship. It has nothing to with this example

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:30:07

It would be wouldn't it hmm I'm interested to know AThings thoughts on it actually

AThingInYourLife Thu 11-Oct-12 00:30:57

Sorry, monster, I don't buy the genetic essentialism argument. I think it is used to fetishise the donors of genetic material over de facto parents.

"Your father was a dangerous bastard, I thought it best to keep you safe from him."

monsterchild Thu 11-Oct-12 00:34:39

I'm sorry your friend is dealing with this, and I hope she is and remains safe!

Talk to men throughout the country and they will tell you that name on birth certificate /= visits or custody.

And it could be this guy was dropped on his head, and it's nothing he'll pass on.

But the reality is often not what we expect it to be. Again, he sounds like a monster, and she is doing what she can to keep her baby safe.

But that's a separate issue from biology.

And it is an argument she needs to make in court. I'm guessing this guy is yanking her chain and has no real interest in court, unless he thought she didn't want to go. Then he'll be interested!

AThingInYourLife Thu 11-Oct-12 00:37:34

Those tests are not asking the same question though.

Is that child MINE?

is a different question from

Are you the father of this child?

I don't think a man has a right to deny a child that is his, but I do think a mother has a right to refuse to disclose who might have made her pregnant.

BerylStreep Thu 11-Oct-12 00:39:23

This discussion has just reminded me of another friend I had, years ago - she became pg to the guy she had been going out with. It turned out that he was a local gangster, and very dangerous, which she was unaware of at the time.

She gave birth to twins and gave them up for adoption in order to protect them from him. sad

She was one of the most selfless and stoic people I knew, although I knew she thought of them constantly and longed for the day that they turned 18, so that they might be able to find her.

She moved away, I haven't seen her for years - I wonder did they ever contact her?

monsterchild Thu 11-Oct-12 00:40:14

Athing, you are arguing that EXACT position. Just not based on biology. I'm not arguing that he should have any contact. He sounds completely unsafe and I agree that under no circumstances should he have contact.

The question wasn't "should he be allowed contact" it was "can a mother be forced to let a DNA test happen."

The answer is yes.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Thu 11-Oct-12 00:46:26

Actually beryl, it just had me thinking about making comparisons to adoption also.

The original question was "can" however it was established a mother can be forced, the discussion has now evolved to should a mother be forced. I think we all agree he should not have contact, but that does throw up what is in the child's best interest and who should decide that. I agree in essence that should be the court but I think I can empathise and maybe somewhat condone living in such a circumstance.

It is very emotive from both sides of the argument.

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:47:29

Oh yes they are the same. Each parent is finding out who's the father, which they both have a right to do.

Just because men can't get pregnant and don't carry the baby doesn't mean they forgo any rights to know if a child is there's or not.

You're argument is flawed at you know it. And there's not one ounce of equality in it

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:47:52

Theirs*

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:51:24

And an example:

A woman and man are married for let's say, 15 years and have one child.
The man finds out at time of conception the woman cheated, so the paternity is questionable.

In your eyes athing, this man has no right to demand a test?

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 00:53:44

What the eff is up with my writing tonight. Excuse me, it's late!

cestlavielife Thu 11-Oct-12 12:47:33

she can give plenty valid reasons why he suold not get PR at this stage. her slicitor can make a case given the SW recomendations. so him having PR would be way down the line .

TheEnthusiasticTroll Thu 11-Oct-12 21:41:23

i would agree he has no right to demand a test in that case Goldship. what about the child and the parenting that has taken place over the past 15 years. what would be the outcome for everyone involved if it was negative/positive and that would have to have consideration to what is the best thing for that child.

those are some of the questions i think would need to be answered in such a case. but again that is not the case in question, every situation has its own unique merits and that is what they should be based on.

in essence i agree with athing but obviously in many cases mediation and a common ground could be reached, but i dont think in the case of what the op describes a common ground, mediation or a mutual agreement could or should be achived.

GhostShip Thu 11-Oct-12 21:49:53

So he has no right to find out if the child he has brought up for the last 15 years is actually is or not?

Please do excuse my language but what complete and utter bollocks.

Of course he has the bloody right. He's brought up a child, paid for a child, raised and nurtured a child that potentially could not be his.

What if a woman decides to name a man as a father so she can get money from the CSA. He doesn't think the child is his. You think he shouldn't be able to either?

So many hypothetical situations we could apply to this, and in each and everyone I fully believe a man has a right to know if a child is his.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Thu 11-Oct-12 22:04:16

like I said I agree in essence with athing, but I think every case should be judged on its own unique merits, there are so many hypotheticals that could be put to this and I would have a diffent opinion on them but I accept the law has powers to interviene also and can instruct a dna sample in any case they see fit, however I hold my own moral judgemnet based on what is best in every situation for everyone involved. I dont see it as black and white like you, I can see possible gray areas and that is not complete and utter bollocks. its just a difference. Im not saying in every blanket hypothetical situation there is and should be no right.

I think a violent man who has no true interest can only cause more damage than good in finding out if this child is his, in comparison to a man who wishes to know in order for him to do the right thing moraly for him self and his hypothetical child.

avenueone Thu 11-Oct-12 22:04:34

You didn't like my first post and may not like this but I promise it is the best thing your friend can do.
She need to tell him he is the father if she knows he is, he can't take her to court for a DNA if paternity isn't being disputed (if she lies it will go against her later on).
Say if he wants contact he has to go to court and send him a solicitors letter so say so if possible. If he needs legal aid this will stop in April so try and keep things going for as long as possible as I doubt he will have the money to do it himself nor the inclination to self rep. It is a long process starting with mediation, CAFCASS will get involved, tell your friend to read their website (I'm rubbish at putting links on here). She will get support.
It is about the rights of the child not his rights. Tell her to read up on as much as she can and whilst it does seem wrong at the moment it doesn't mean that things will turn out badly for her, things will turn out fine if she tells the truth and seeks professional advice. Keep strong, children's services will not let this get out of hand as long as she tells the truth. It will take a long time for anything to happen and when it does it will be a slow process. Read up as much as you can, ring CAFCASS but do not be seen to be totally obstructing contact she wanting the best for the child which you do.

BerylStreep Fri 12-Oct-12 08:31:45

Avenue, thanks.

She has never actually disputed that he is the father - she told him when she was pg (although he denied he was the father at the time - now he is saying different, because it suits him). She has no intention of not telling the child who the father is, once able to understand.

It's just that I thought that since he wasn't named on the birth certificate, that by forcing her to submit to a DNA test, he could therefore insist on being named on the birth certificate, and from there gain automatic parental responsibility. Is this wrong then?

If he has already got legal aid, will this cease in April, or will it continue since it has already been granted?

AnitaBlake Fri 12-Oct-12 15:22:55

Beryl, no man can insist on being on the birth certificate, unless PR is ordered or agreed on in court. My DH knows this by bitter experience. Only mothers are automatically allowed to be on the birth certificate where the parents are unmarried.

digerd Fri 12-Oct-12 16:32:51

The CSA would demand a DNA test.

The real father's name is legally required on a birth certificate, unless it is unknown to the mother. If she is unmarried, the father has to attend and sign acknowledgement at registration.

It is ILLEGAL, to register a false name knowingly. If later a DNA proves that the father's name on birth certificate is false, then it must be removed, and real biological father registered, if he wants that, if unmarried. If married, the mother can register the father's name without her husband being there so long as she produces the marriage certificate. It will be assumed it is his. If a later DNA test proves he is not the biological father, then his name should be removed, as birth certificate gives false information.

If the unmarried father is proved to be the dad, then the birth certificate is false if states " unkown", and is a legal requirement that the BC includes the father, when known. The mother does not have a right to refuse to correct an incorrect declaration on a birth certificate re. the father's name
How, he can enforce it though, I don't know. But the CSA might do that.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Fri 12-Oct-12 18:53:31

Divers, what then if the father refuses to registrar the birth with the mother, how can the birth certificate be illegal? Are you sure that is correct?

JustFabulous Fri 12-Oct-12 18:58:50

The fact that you allege he has been violent and has mental health issues does not mean he doesn't have the right to know if the child is his and more importantly that the baby shouldn't know where they come from.

<awaits attacks>

AnitaBlake Fri 12-Oct-12 19:27:16

The unmarried (to the mother) father can only add his name to the birth certificate if the mother is present or he had a statement ir order of PR. DH has a DNA test, and contact order for DSD but cannot be named on the birth certificate without the above. He does not have PR.

Naming on the birth certificate confers PR, if after a certain date, and a man cannot name himself as the father on the birth certificate unless he has official permission.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Fri 12-Oct-12 21:11:03

That is what I thought Anita, so was a bit confused by divers comment

avenueone Fri 12-Oct-12 21:52:31

Digerd - that is not correct, if unmarried the father's name can only go on the birth certificate if he chooses to attend the registration process - he doesn't have to go. If you register a child under these circumstances it doesn't say unknown it stays blank.
The OP has already said that the CSA are not involved.
Beryl - no just because he is proved to be the father via a DNA test does not mean his name goes on the birth cert and he does not therefore get automatic parental responsibility - so your friend can rest easy there.

TheEnthusiasticTroll Fri 12-Oct-12 22:16:30

Why does auto correct turn digerd into divers? I only just noticed that.

7InTheBed Fri 12-Oct-12 22:38:11

This sound awful but i was in a similar situation.
He said bby was not his, tried to strangle me and said to - get rid of it!!
now he know i have baby he applied to court to find me. he told some of our riends that the cour tried to find me but couldnt?? i dontknow if that is possible but thats what he said.
anyway- i am now married etc and my DH treats him like heis his own son and we have decided that if it came up we would tell him baby is not his.
i would rather be branded a slag, than let him near my baby.
somepeople on here would say its wrong but i disagree, she has to protect her baby and unfortunately in the UK court does not do it very well.

7InTheBed Fri 12-Oct-12 22:41:59

digerd- this is in fact incorrect.
a confirmation of paternity does not make an automatic right to be on the birth cert. it is not illegal for mum to not put it there.
if father claims he is daddy ad paternity test confirms he will have to make an applicaion to the court to be put onto the birth cert and be granted PR. it is not an automatic right when he confirms he is the dad!!!

izzyizin Sat 13-Oct-12 01:24:40

As you have been told above, the information you have provided is fundamentally incorrect, digerd.

Furthermore, the CSA do not 'demand' or otherwise order paternity tests nor does that agency have any involvement in the national Registers of Births or correcting/amending information shown therein.

xmasevebundle Sun 14-Oct-12 19:55:07

If i was her...

Id say i slept with another man around the time, either way hes going to get a DNA.

He has to get the DNA then get PR then a Contact Order(which i doubt because he sounds a twat)

Having PR does NOT GIVE him rights to have contact with the child.

PR is only saying e.g what schools.

tripleandco Mon 15-Oct-12 12:22:26

It's true that having PR or his name on the bc wouldn't give the father rights to have contact with the child. But generally courts consider it best for the child to have contact with both natural parents, even in cases where the parent has mh problems or convictions for violent crimes. Courts rarely agree to no contact at all.

Contact could take place in a supervised environment. With no contact any risk of harm children suffer has to weighed against the harm they suffer if they lose a relationship with one natural parent altogether. Psychiatrists and psychologists consistently tell the family courts that children who are insecure about their natural parentage tend to grow up with low self esteem, leading to behavioural and emotional problems in later life such as dysfunctional relationships in adulthood.

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