Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

please help- urgent

(36 Posts)
Castasunder Tue 26-Jul-16 11:54:01

Asking on behalf of a friend.
She has an 18month old, has recently split with childs father. He is not taking it well and refusing to move out of (her) house. He is also attempting to control her in other ways too numerous to list here.
The latest attempt is to say she cannot visit her native Northern Ireland next week to visit family. He told her to 'wait and see' what will happen if she tries. She has already booked her tickets and is terrified she will be stopped at the airport. She wants to avoid legal route if possible but knows she might have to.

Can he stop her? What's her best course of action all round? I feel she is heading towards a lifetime of him using the child to control her if he is allowed to stop her this time.

CarrotVan Tue 26-Jul-16 12:59:56

Does she live in the UK? If so I can't see how taking a child to NI is any different than taking a child from Yorkshire to Liverpool

Castasunder Tue 26-Jul-16 13:12:05

Yes she lives in England

coolaschmoola Tue 26-Jul-16 13:17:17

If they are not married and he is refusing to leave the house I'd be ringing the Police.

Collaborate Tue 26-Jul-16 13:34:44

She can change the locks to get him out of the house. If he's not leaving, she'll need to see a solicitor about getting a court order.

Castasunder Tue 26-Jul-16 13:43:46

I think she's worried about antagonising him for her and wants to try and reason with him first. Collaborate- can he stop her from visiting NI int he meantime?

AcrossthePond55 Tue 26-Jul-16 15:53:51

She really needs to see a solicitor. These are areas where it's really worth the paying to get professional advice, and possibly orders issued. It sounds to me as if he's the type to jerk her around from now until the child is grown. She needs to have written orders to enforce or her life will be a merry hell.

I don't know about there, but here you can't just kick someone out of their 'usual and customary residence', no matter who they are. You have to evict them. Had a case here recently of a live-in nanny who refused to leave after she'd been fired. The former employer had to formally evict her. Crazy.

As far as taking the child away, I think there are probably a lot of variables there, too. Does he have PR? Is he on the BC?

Frazzled2207 Tue 26-Jul-16 15:56:56

He can't stop her travelling to NI. He may think he can- either way this is an empty threat.
Sounds like a nasty piece of work, she needs to change the locks and consult a solicitor.

Castasunder Tue 26-Jul-16 16:03:45

Yes he's on the BC and has PR.

She knows she needs legal advice but it's taking a while to get to that stage as it's very hard emotionally. What do you think the chances are of her getting an emergency hearing for court before next week?

TimeforaNNChange Tue 26-Jul-16 16:07:28

I very much doubt she'll get an emergency hearing because there is nothing for the court to rule on.
If she was proposing a holiday abroard with her DC, then the father could object and a court would decide.
But, he can't object to her going to NI - unless he believes she is a flight risk, in which case, he'd be the one seeking an order to prevent her traveling.

I'm not a legal professional, but having be immersed in family law for years, that's my understanding.

AcrossthePond55 Tue 26-Jul-16 16:16:00

Wouldn't she need to see a solicitor first?

Listen, I'm in the US so I may be full of shite, but isn't going from England to Scotland, Wales, or NI like crossing from state to state here in the US? I mean, there are no border crossings at the boundaries where they stop and ask for your passport or papers, right? If that's the case, what's to stop her? He has no legal orders saying she's not permitted to take child away from home, she's not crossing any passport/visa needed borders, right?

Again, I'm looking it this from US law so may be full of shite. My BFF and her ex had it written in their divorce that neither of them was allowed to take the child more than 100 miles from home (or across a state border) without written consent of the other parent. Absent an order like that she could have moved 3000 miles away if she'd wanted to.

Another thing she needs to consider is that, if he has PR, then possession is 9/10 of the law. He could prevent her from taking the child to NI simply by taking the child away himself, to a friend's or relative's. The police aren't going to get the child back from her absent a court order.

AcrossthePond55 Tue 26-Jul-16 16:20:19

Should read 'for her' not 'from her'

Bottom line, she needs to make this a priority. I know emotions are difficult, but as a friend, you really need to insist she do this.

Castasunder Tue 26-Jul-16 16:41:56

Thank you so much, I'll get her to see a sol asap.

So to clarify- there is no point in her trying to get a court order in advance of any future holidays she would want to take?
He would refuse to provide any written consent that the child could be taken- this I know. In fact, I absolutely believe he would say she could go, then phone the border agency and say it was an abduction

TimeforaNNChange Tue 26-Jul-16 16:52:38

So to clarify- there is no point in her trying to get a court order in advance of any future holidays she would want to take?

It depends where she wants to travel. If she is not planning on going abroad then she does not need permission, or even to notify her ex that she is away.

The law is clear that everyone with PR must give permission for a child to travel abroad - the only exception to that is if one parent is named in a Child Arrangement Order (issued by court) as with whom the child usually lives (formally known as the "resident parent") . A resident parent can remove their DC from the country for up to a month without having to seek permission of others with PR. If both parents are named as resident parents (as in the case of shared parenting) then neither have to seek the permission of the other (again, for periods less than 1 month).

www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

Castasunder Tue 26-Jul-16 16:57:53

Thanks Time

She is thinking of going abroad in October

antiqueroadhoe Tue 26-Jul-16 17:02:56

She needs to think about the forthcoming trip and getting him out the house, not wondering about foreign holidays in October.

sparechange Tue 26-Jul-16 17:05:34

But Time, surely NI doesn't count as 'abroad' just like the Isle of Wight wouldn't? It might be over sea, but it is still within the UK?

Castasunder Tue 26-Jul-16 17:09:02

Antique- sorry , I'm just putting it out there. She hasn't had a hole with her DD yet and was thinking longer term- as in whether there is truth in his claims that he will not allow it. It's not that she is prioritising a holiday.
As for getting him out- she's seeing CAB tomorrow. Fingers crossed they'll shed some light.

TimeforaNNChange Tue 26-Jul-16 17:12:31

spare The OP asked about future holidays, not just the impending trip to NI, which, as I said upthread, is not "abroad".

I'm sure it is written into legislation somewhere whether movement is permitted within the United Kingdom, or Great Britain - a minor, but distinct difference!

sparechange Tue 26-Jul-16 17:15:55

Sorry time, missed the thread about the October holiday!

OP, does she have the funds to see a solicitor instead of the CAB?

Missgraeme Tue 26-Jul-16 17:19:13

She will only need permission for holidays if longer than 28 days out of the country (uklaw). He is just being an arse.

TimeforaNNChange Tue 26-Jul-16 17:21:52

miss Not unless she has got a Child Arrangement Order naming her as the resident parent.

Without an order, neither parent is permitted to remove the child from the country without permission from the other.

Castasunder Tue 26-Jul-16 17:28:58

Right so I think I've got it: he can't stop her from taking child to NI
He can stop her from taking child abroad and she needs his consent.

Wallywobbles Tue 26-Jul-16 17:32:14

You can just ring the passport office and they'll give you a straight answer. Normally you don't need to have permission to travel within Europe.

TimeforaNNChange Tue 26-Jul-16 17:39:30

wally the passport office is not a substitute for family court!

If the OPs friends ex refuses permission for her to take their DC abroad, the passport office cannot overrule that.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now