Lying on form E - what can be done?

[FrustratedAndConfusedAgain]

Regular MNer but n/c to avoid outing myself . If you receive a bonus in the form of deferred shares, where is it recorded? P11D? Or just a letter from your employer?

Background: I am in the process of getting divorced. We've exchanged forms E and STBXH's one didn't include a large part of last year's bonus.

He works in a highly paid job in which his annual bonus is paid part in cash and mostly in deferred shares which he can't sell until 2-3 years later. So he's only included the cash part in the form E. He says that's his full disclosure but when we were still together before he fucked off with a 25 year old he told me last year that his bonus was the usual 'X in cash, Y in shares' deal. Unfortunately I never saw any letter confirming this so I only have his word to go on.

Is there anything I can do about this or do I just have to accept his lies what he's decided to put in his form E?

[mumblechum1]

No, you don't have to accept it. If you have a solicitor, they'll file a questionnaire in which they'll request documentary evidence of the shares/bonus.

If you don't have a solicitor, you can file a questionnaire yourself, but it has to be in a certain format.

[FrustratedAndConfusedAgain]

Thank you both. My solicitor did write to his asking about the bonus and saying we expect full voluntary disclosure of all income. We got a letter back saying 'we are instructed that our client's bonus was as disclosed in his form E.' And that no 'fishing expedition' will be tolerated. Solicitor said to me that if you want to go after undisclosed assets you have to have at least some basis to claim the assets exist. I may have understood her wrong but she seemed to be saying if you've got a bank statement showing something that's one thing, but just saying he must have more because he said he did a year ago wouldn't get anywhere.

This is costing me a fortune and I really don't want to drag it out if it's not going anywhere but it seems so unfair he can just lie and get away with it. He earns about 10 times what I do!

[Sallypuss]

Any share award (deferred or otherwise) would ordinarily be confirmed in an employer's letter or from the share scheme administrator. It isn't a taxable benefit so wouldn't be shown on a P11d.

[FrustratedAndConfusedAgain]

So we ask for a copy of the employer's letter confirming share award, STBXH says there wasn't one... What then?

[FrustratedAndConfusedAgain]

It's just that in past years this has made up about 2/3 of his total remuneration. It's a massive amount to deny.

[SuiGeneris]

Could you ask for disclosure from H'a employer?

Also, it might be worth reminding him that lying is frowned upon in his industry and could result in the withdrawal of his registration...

[FrustratedAndConfusedAgain]

He always kept his own bank account and just paid money each month from it to our joint account so I don't have any statements showing what he had. He just told me. For all I know he was lying about that too.

So I have to have his permission to get proof from his employer? That's mad!

'Will you agree to let me see some documents that will show you have to pay me more than you want?'

'No'

'Er, ok then.'

Surely that's not how it works!

[mumblechum1]

No, if one of you files a Form A, the court will order you both to file full Forms E, and eventually to answer any questionnaires. That happens a bit down the line, so your solicitor will probably threaten the above to make him behave himself.

[FrustratedAndConfusedAgain]

Sorry to be thick Mumblechum but do you mean I can get him to file another form E on top of the one he's already done? What if he just files the same thing again?

[mumblechum1]

Basically, the idea is that you both file voluntary Forms E. If it isn't possible to negotiate a settlement for whatever reason on that basis, then one or other of you will have to file a formal appln to the court.

The court then issues a standard directions order. The directions will include each of you filing a Form E by a specified date, and various other docs inc. a questionnaire and response as necessary. m

The second Form E is usually just an updated version of the first one, eg the payslips, bank stmts etc will be refreshed.

Because one of the standard directions is that you both go to court, if you still aren't happy with your husband's disclosure your solicitor will point out to the judge exactly what questions are outstanding and the judge will order him to file the info.

[FrustratedAndConfusedAgain]

Oh ok, so form A is how you kick off the court process? Thank you. I'd really hoped to avoid court altogether. Naive.

[maggiethemole]

bonus in shares will not be in tax forms until they vest as this is the taxable point. however ALL employers (is he a banker?)will issue an annual statement of compensation that will include deferred payments and shares and most provide a statement of all deferred comp being held. ask for this. also ask for his employment contract as it will detail compensation arrangements including deferred stock.
also you need to ask for as many years as the shares vest (ie go back 2-5 years) as there maybe some that are vesting not just from last year but from further back. also options should be valued at their current value (which is a lot right now)
frankly it sounds like hes f@@cking about and trying to pull the wool over your eyes. and this could be worth a lot of money so don't let him cheat you!
as the others note this is voluntary form E but if he does not produce this documentation to your FULL satisfaction then go through to court. its a serious offense to omit assets and might shit him up. it will cost a lot but should be worth it and its costing him too. also even if you are worried about costs don't let him think that he can bully you inot not going to court. be clear, that's where its going if he does not disclose this information.

[slumberjac]

Mumblechum1 - re your post below - can you tell me the format for the questionnaire? I'm not having much luck locating one on the net!

Thank you

No, you don't have to accept it. If you have a solicitor, they'll file a questionnaire in which they'll request documentary evidence of the shares/bonus.

If you don't have a solicitor, you can file a questionnaire yourself, but it has to be in a certain format.

[Collaborate]

It doesn't have to be in a certain format. It's simply a list of questions, usually requesting documents. The trick is that the questions have to be relevant and proportionate.

[Vivienne4]

I have experienced a similar thing with my divorce. Husband earns a fortune, failed to disclose his shareholding in the company initially, then insisted shares have no value. To cut a long story short I took him on and we are now nearing the end of the court process and heading for a final hearing next week. It's all pretty horrendous, very costly, but my only alternative was to let him get away with denying us (we have 3 children) a fair and reasonable settlement. He is incapable of backing down, negotiating or being half reasonable. The court insisted at the last hearing that a forensic accountant be employed to establish a value of his shareholding (even though the shares do not vest until 2015). The whole process has cost thousands, but this leap of faith uncovered an additional 300k which means there is a possibility me and the children will be able to stay in the house. He wants to sell and spit 50/50! It's costly, stressful and draining but on the upside it beats being bullied and pushed around. Have no idea what the final outcome will be for us next week, but having found evidence that he lied about his bonuses on his form E (and I've found payslips to prove it!) I can only hope that justice will prevail afterall.

Wish you luck!

[Wellwobbly]

Forensic accountant cost around £900, what is found: huge.

My friend pulled a f/a despite the offer of using his accountant, and the screams of her unreasonableness in not doing so, and before the f/a did a thing, her H managed to 'remember' a whole load of shares. (At around £8/share).

[Rainbowdropz]

@Wellwobbly

Forensic accountant cost around £900, what is found: huge.

My friend pulled a f/a despite the offer of using his accountant, and the screams of her unreasonableness in not doing so, and before the f/a did a thing, her H managed to 'remember' a whole load of shares. (At around £8/share).

@Wellwobbly Hi Wellwobbly, I just saw your post regarding the use of a forensic accountant for £900. Do you still have their details please?

Thanks in advance.

[Whydidimarryhim]

That post was from 2013 rainbow!

[Rainbowdropz]

@Whydidimarryhim I'm aware, I was just hoping she might still use mumsnet.