married mum-to-be seeking advice on money, house, savings

[swimmingthroughtreacle]

I'm a bit clueless about what are appropriate financial arrangements in a marriage and whether I'm right to think that aspects about our arrangements are a bit odd. We are newly married with baby on the way so I want to get things a bit more sorted.

I'm a planner and a worst-case-scenario enthusiast. I like to know what the plan is in all eventualities because it makes me feel calm and safe. DH is, by contrast, an optimist about life but also very difficult to talk to about anything to do with money.

The background:
--- We bought a house together whilst unmarried and have always contributed equally to mortgage. But I only contributed 1% of deposit and he 99%, so with our solicitor we drew up a legal agreement protecting our respective shares. I don't know if this legal agreement is still active now we are married and about to become parents (will try to find out).
---- At the same time we drew up wills leaving most of our house-share etc to each other, with a smaller percentages to family members. I expect we will need to change this to accommodate our own family.

Currently:
--- Other joint expenditure is covered from lump sums we each put into joint current account monthly (roughly equal, but proportionate to our earnings).
--- We both save a lot each month, but in personal accounts / ISAs. I've never really been in a position to save before, but I can now and I've learned good practice from DH. I have a long-term savings and short-term savings. DH has lots of complicated accounts which he is opaque about.
--- He used to say his savings were for 'us' so I naturally asked what the different accounts were for, how much was in them and what was available for e.g. house improvements. It transpired that he doesn't actually want to spend any of these savings so he won't talk about them. Which annoys me as I am the opposite of secretive about what I've got saved and what it's for.
--- It takes a lot of hardcore persuasion to get him to part with any of this money (e.g. we've just agreed to fund new kitchen from our individual savings, but it was hard work to get him to agree as he would be happy to live in a swamp-pit and I'm not, especially with baby coming).
--- His personal savings, he says, include his (long-standing, pre-marriage) life contingency fund from which he says he will cover stuff like a replacement boiler or roof in an emergency but, in such a scenario, the expectation is that I will help to replenish it if it's used for house emergencies. It's really great he has such a pot but if I'm going to be replenishing it in the future should it not be in both our names with dual access? What if (worst case scenario) he was ill in hospital and the roof blew off? Yes I could use my savings (not that they stretch that far!) or get something on credit, but it seems ridiculous that we are married, about to have a family and aren't pooling more of our resources.
--- We've recently agreed to put a certain amount aside from our own money each month for home improvements before baby arrives. I've been merrily putting this into the one joint savings account we do have (made up or dribs and drabs from what's left over in our joint current each month). For some reason he won't even put his monthly amount in there. When the bills come (from next month) in I presume I'll have to beg him for his share, which feels inappropriate.

Which leads me onto my worry about what happens if we divorced - would I get only my 1% + share from mortgage contributions back, because that's what our legal agreement says? What if I can't afford accommodation - would I lose access to our child-to-be? I've tried to find out online my rights but I can't seem to find anything that goes into the nitty gritty.

And more generally, am I being unreasonable to want to know about his savings? He seems to think so. Partly it's practical but there's also a cultural difference - I come from no money and am happy to talk about it whereas his family were substantially better off but don't talk about it. In many ways he's like his father who handled all the finances. The mother didn't know where to start even paying a bill / withdrawing cash after he died and hadn't a clue what he'd left her. But we're much more equal in some ways - we earn and contribute similar amounts etc - but of course there's the big discrepancy in how much of the house is his and house much is mine and his historical, pre-marriage savings which he wants to keep to himself.

Our different approach to things is a big problem for me. He is really difficult to talk to - defensive, clams up etc. Would it be ridiculous to get couples counselling just to sort out the financial basics of our future family life or would it actually be sensible?!

Any other advice or examples of how to do Grown Up Life welcome!

[olgaga]

This is mad! Sorry but if you are married all your assets are joint assets. There's no "yours" and "mine". You are entitled to know what your joint financial position is. Frankly if you need counselling to talk about practical matters such as finance is at this early stage in your life together, it doesn't sound great!

When you have a baby you will have a lot of extra expense - and you will probably not be working, at least for a while.

You might find this useful - it's information I prepared for another thread. Not all of it will be relevant but it will give you an idea about matrimonial rights:

Relationship Breakdown and Divorce ? Advice and Links

General

Read everything you can get your hands on. Get familiar with the language of family law and procedure and try to get an understanding of your rights BEFORE you see a solicitor. Get word of mouth recommendations for family lawyers in your area if possible. If you have children at school, ask mums you are friendly with if they know of anyone who can make a recommendation in your area. These days there are few people who don?t know of anyone who has been through a divorce or separation ? there?s a lot of knowledge and support out there!

If there are children involved, their interests will always come first. It is the children?s right to maintain a meaningful relationship with the non-resident parent (NRP) ? not the other way around. Children are not possessions to be ?fairly? divided between separating parents. Parents have no rights, only responsibilities. A divorce will not be granted where children are involved unless there are agreed arrangements for finance, and care of the children (?Statement of Arrangements for Children?). It is obviously quicker and cheaper if this can be agreed but if there is no agreement, the Court will make an Order (?Residence and Contact? regarding children, ?Financial Order? or ?Ancillary Relief? in the case of Finance)

Many family lawyers will offer the first half hour consultation free. Make use of this. Don?t just stick with the first lawyer you find ? shop around and find someone you feel comfortable with. You may be in for a long haul, so it helps if you can find a solicitor you?re happy with.

If you can?t find any local recommendations, always see a solicitor who specialises in Family Law. You can search by area here:

//www.resolution.org.uk/

You can also find family law solicitors here:

www.lawsociety.org.uk/areasoflaw/view=areasoflawdetails.law?AREAOFLAW=Family%20law&AREAOFLAWID=36

Check your eligibility for Legal Aid here:

legalaidcalculator.justice.gov.uk/calculators/eligiCalc?execution=e1s1


Some family law solicitors publish online feedback from clients ? Google solicitors to see if any recommendations or feedback exists.

Mediation

You will be encouraged to attend mediation. If there has been violence or emotional abuse, discuss this with your solicitor first. Always get legal advice, or at the very least make sure you are aware of your legal rights, before you begin mediation.

Married or Living Together?

This is a key question. If you are married, generally speaking you have greater protection when a relationship breaks down.

Legal Issues around marriage/cohabitation and relationship breakdown are explained here:

//www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/relationships_e/relationships_living_together_marriage_and_civil_partnership_e/living_together_and_marriage_legal_differences.htm#Ending_a_relationship

static.advicenow.org.uk/files/benefits-and-livingtogether-2010-11-1161.pdf

DirectGov advice on divorce, separation and relationship breakdown:
//www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Divorceseparationandrelationshipbreakdown/index.htm

Legal Rights are further explained here:

//www.rightsofwomen.org.uk/legal.php#children_relationship_breakdown

I found these guides from law firms quite informative and easy to read ? there are others of course:

//www.family-lawfirm.co.uk/uploaded/documents/Surviving-Family-Conflict-and-Divorce---2nd-edition.pdf

//www.terry.co.uk/hindex.html

Finance

Before you see a family law solicitor, get hold of every single piece of financial information you can, and take copies. Wage slips, P60s, tax returns, employment contracts, pensions and other statements ? savings, current account and mortgages, deeds, rental leases, utility bills, council tax bills, credit statements. Are there joint assets such as a home, pensions, savings, shares?

Handy tax credits calculator:

taxcredits.hmrc.gov.uk/Qualify/DIQHousehold.aspx

Handy 5 Minute benefit check, tax and housing benefit calculators:

//www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/

Child Maintenance Calculator:

taxcredits.hmrc.gov.uk/Qualify/DIQHousehold.aspx

Further advice and support

//www.maypole.org.uk/

//www.womensaid.org.uk/

//www.gingerbread.org.uk/

england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/families_and_relationships
(Re Shelter, if you are not in England follow the link at the top)

[olgaga]

And now that you are married your previous wills are no longer valid. You really need to make new wills.

[swimmingthroughtreacle]

Thanks so much, Olgaga. It's good to have both your immediate thoughts on the particular situation and the general advice on matrimonial rights. I know it probably sounds odd to suggest relationship counselling but I've had a fair bit of one-on-one and it's helped me no end, and DH and I just can't seem to get beyond the 'I want to know stuff and maybe change things / he won't really open up' impasse. We have both spent a long time being single before meeting each other, and I guess the 'thinking individually' thing comes naturally to us both to some extent, but I can't help feeling it's inappropriate now we're about to have a family.

Oh, and just looked at the will and it describes us as partner/intended spouse; I think we agreed to this in case we ever got married. So I guess they may still be valid.

[tribpot]

I think you have more immediate problems than what would happen in the case of a divorce.

Presumably your income is going to take a big hit whilst you are off on maternity leave. Is he expecting that you will continue to meet the shared household expenses as before? What about baby-related expenditure like childcare?

[swimmingthroughtreacle]

Thanks for your response, Tribpot.

From a back-of-the-envelope calculation my income will go down some, but not a painful amount. I work for a university with a good mat. leave package. But I intend to return to work within the first year and although I can work from home 80% of the time and he is thinking about reducing to a 4-day week we will obviously need to spend a chunk on childcare (I can get tax-free vouchers through salary scheme - need to look into that) plus the big things like pram, cot etc and day-to-day things like clothes, nappies.

I thought I'd like to continue to contribute equally to the mortgage, as that (in my head at least) will increase my share in the house. But perhaps after what Olgaga says about all assets being shared assets if married I need to rethink the importance of that. All other outgoings are done proportionately on income. We have talked about baby-related expenditure coming out of our joint current account, so I expect the total amount needing to be put into there each month will generally need to increase, and adjusted according to income.

[olgaga]

You might find this website useful - if you click on "life events" at the top there's a page about finance after having a baby too.

www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/talking-about-money-with-your-partner

[olgaga]

You don't have to contribute equally in financial terms to maintain your share of the house and marital assets. On divorce you are both judged to have contributed equally to the assets, even if one party has not worked while raising a family. Where children are involved the financial arrangements on divorce are are based on need, not contribution.

Do read those links I posted, especially those relating to divorce. You may not feel it is anything to do with you but it will help you understand your matrimonial rights and the reasons why the Matrimonial Act covers these issues.

The law protects you, if you are married, from disadvantage resulting from the fact that women still generally earn less, and take time out of a career to raise children - losing income and pension as a result. Women are often in a much worse position after divorce because their earnings and mortgage capacity are reduced - which is why settlements are needs based, not usually split 50-50.

[swimmingthroughtreacle]

Thanks so much, Olgaga - that link and the other information is really useful. We've had some useful conversations today and he has agreed that we both need access to the contingency fund and I'm happy to do this on a 'two signatories' basis. That feels like a major step forward, and my concerns about what should happen if we split up/divorce are definitely alleviated somewhat by the stuff you've directed me to. I really appreciate your help.

[sicutlilium]

"just looked at the will and it describes us as partner/intended spouse; I think we agreed to this in case we ever got married. So I guess they may still be valid."
Perhaps one of the family lawyers could clarify, but I think that marriage automatically revokes any previous will unless specifically written in contemplation of marriage? Would a will written (as I'm assuming it was) some time before the actual marriage have that effect?

[olgaga]

BB, documents lying around the house are not the same as documents kept confidentially on a work computer, as in the Immerman case.

Plus of course if you have knowledge, nothing can erase it - so it is perfectly possible to challenge Form E disclosure on the basis of "knowledge" and seek search orders at that point.

[olgaga]

I disagree!

[Collaborate]

I agree with BB. Sometimes the taking of confidential information is a criminal offence. It's a legal minefield.

[olgaga]

No-one said anything about taking financial information. What it says is this:

Before you see a family law solicitor, get hold of every single piece of financial information you can, and take copies. Wage slips, P60s, tax returns, employment contracts, pensions and other statements ? savings, current account and mortgages, deeds, rental leases, utility bills, council tax bills, credit statements. Are there joint assets such as a home, pensions, savings, shares?

Most of these documents will be your own, or they will be joint arrangements. They don't tend to be kept under lock and key. They are usually in the home, readily accessible - it's just that most people don't take much notice of them until they become important - such as when you come to complete Form E, right?

They are not usually on a work pc which you have to get your brother to access for you - as in the case quoted.

For heaven's sake, get a grip the pair of you. You are over-complicating simple advice which enables people to get on top of their financial position.

[Collaborate]

They don't need to be in a locked filing cabinet to be confidential. If you read the Immerman case and the subsequent case law that clarifies Immerman you'll understand.

[MOSagain]

I think that babybarrister and collaborate are correct to highlight the difference between what is acceptable to take and copy and what isn't as very clearly clarified in Immerman

[olgaga]

Ooh all three of you! I think people are generally sensible enough to realise what that advice suggests. However, if there is a massive increase in cases along the lines of Immerman I take full responsibility

[MOSagain]

ah but you see, people are not generally sensible, that is why so many are on here seeking advice rather than instructing a family lawyer. They also listen to a friend of a friend down the pub or worse still, the 'Jeremy Kyle brigade' that sometimes hang out here!

Also, as us family lawyers know only too well, they often only hear what THEY want to hear, not what the correct legal position may be

[olgaga]

I don't think your patronising observations are very helpful here on this thread.

Perhaps you should start your own thread where lawyers with a similar attitude to yours can vent their spleen to their heart's content about all those irritating clients who pay their wages.

[MOSagain]

Perhaps you could kindly clarify what you think is patronising?
I don't recall at any time venting my spleen about irritating clients. What irritates me, is people who come on here and give extremely bad, and sometimes dangerous legal advice, no doubt intending to be helpful, but which could be damaging to the OP.

I maintain my view that babybarrister and collaborate are correct to highlight the the case of Immerman in light of various posters suggesting that the OP, and others in her situation, essentially photocopy anything they can get their hands on. If this advice was followed, potentially the OP could end up in serious trouble.

Also, I do really think that you should make it clear that you are not a lawyer as I have seen numerous threads over recent months where you appear to be implying that you are.

I have no need to start my own thread. I choose to post in legal as I am a qualified lawyer and I hope that on occasions, the advice that I give is helpful to some.

[olgaga]

I am not going to waste time arguing with you, and my professional status is none of your business. As I said, if you want to be pompous and patronising about people who need help and advice, start your own thread.