I think it might be time to admit defeat. So sad.

[Hurricaneinateacup]

Two failed ivf cycles this year with an original diagnosis of mfi.

However consultant now thinks the problem is me as apparently it only takes one sperm - even though we have motility of 15% and morphology of 1%. He thinks it could be implantation.
The consultant wants me to have a lap which I will have to have privately through my health insurance. Health insurance won't pay for fertility reasons so consultant has advised me to lie to gp and say I have endometriosis symptoms which I'm not going to do.
Looked instead at going abroad for donor treatment but needed smear first in line with their regulations. Went today (privately again can't have on nhs) and saw same consultant as for ivf.

Smear was total agony and caused me to bleed. Before the test had even started. I've had egg transfer using a speculum and it's been fine but as soon as he put it in it was agony and bleeding started.
Consultant said this is probably a polyp which may or may not be cancerous and has said before proceeding I need to have a hysteroscopy, a hycosy and a lap and I need to see if the insurance will pay.

I'm absolutely at my wit's end. We started with male factor and now have:
Endometriosis
Possibly cancerous polyps

It obviously just isn't meant to be is it? I can't keep taking all this time off work. I think this is it for us.

[VanitasVanitatum]

Are you not in UK? If it's suspected cancer surely NHS will cover everything?

[Hurricaneinateacup]

Yes I'm in the uk.
I've not had the results back yet it's just what the consultant said.
He said it isn't usual to bleed with a smear and it is often a sign of cancerous or pre cancerous polyps. However dr google does not support this.

I've no pain or bleeding on sex or bleeding mid cycle and I've never had that pain with a previous smear.

[BatCrapCrazy]

I have no experience of infertility but I just wanted to say that my most recent smear hurt like hell and I bled a lot. The nurse said it isn't particularly common but it's not unheard of either. My pervious smears have been absolutely fine. My smear came back normal.

[Hurricaneinateacup]

Thank you, I will hold on to that hope!
I didn't bleed much - it stopped immediately - but straight away the consultant was saying I needed further investigation and then he showed me pictures of cancerous polyps on google images!!!

[Wistfulthinking]

Hi Hurricane I was struggling to concieve (secondary unexplained infertility) and we used our private insurance after a GP referal to check for endometriosis even though I was mostly symptom less. I had experienced post-intercourse spotting a couple of years back and often had spotting after smear tests. I was honest about why I was having exploratory treatment to private consultant and he was happy to treat me. I didn't have endo, but they found a polyp which they removed that was non-cancerous. I concieved and miscarried the next month. Tried and failed to concieve for another year and then had the Chicago immune tests at Zita West. They found I had high NK cells that which can cause implantation failure. We went on to have IVF following an immune protocol and the first round failed. We then had a successful FET round and I'm currently pregnant and due early next year. If you don't want to give up it is worth exploring further as it has taken us 3+ years to get to this point. Good luck with whatever you decide to do- I have found it a very tough path.

[RaspberrySnowCone]

Hurricane I can sympathise. We had IVF last year that failed. We are unexplained. For the next round they wanted to do all sorts of tests and pump me full of God knows what sort of drugs and, after much soul searching we decided to call it a day. It was a huge decision and not one we took lightly. After much counselling and support life is now looking very bright, but, I rembrr those dark days and it's so so hard. Everyone wants you to keep going because next time might be 'the one'. Realistically though only you know what you can take. It's a traumatic process, all I can say is be kind to yourself, plan nice relaxing things and maybe look to have some counselling if you think it would help. I know it helped me massively.

[Hurricaneinateacup]

I think I just feel so much is against us.

Not only do we have male factor with less than 1% normal sperm we also now may have other issues but the consultant seems to only be saying this based on the two ivf cycles. So I don't know. I just feel like we went in with one problem but now are being told - well actually you may have LOTS of problems. How unlucky can one couple be?!

Wistful did they explain how you had managed to have a previous successful pregnancy?

raspberry

[Wistfulthinking]

Hi Hurricane apparently immune issues can build up like an allergy or intolerance. The more my body experienced pregnancies/failed implantation the more hostile it becomes as my NK/killer cells become more proficient at killing the embryos. I think the the book "is my body baby friendly" co-written by Dr Beer explains the source of my fertility issues best. The most frustrating thing about my experience was that Doctors could not find anything wrong with our fertility (my husband had minor morphology issues and was on the cusp of fertile at 6%) and, given that we had one child, said that it was just a matter of time.

We ended up at ZW without an awareness of immune issues and I feel that it was luck that we were able to have our issue identified and treated. Technically our issue is not proven or treatable on the NHS.

If you do decide to investigate further it is worth using your private insurance for as much as you can, to rule endo or polyps in or out, before considering investigating the immune route as it is quite expensive.

Good luck and all the best xx

[silversixpence]

I would definitely request the investigations on the NHS due to the bleeding/suspected polyps. I am a GP (if that helps to convince you!). Depending on your age it may warrant a more urgent referral. However your private insurance may cover this as it is not due to the fertility problems.

[Hurricaneinateacup]

Would he have been able to see the polyp on examination?

I've had two embryo transfers this year with no pain. Cannot understand why this was so painful. Uterus tilts so when have had a smear before it's uncomfortable and they use the smallest speculum. Part of me thinks he was too rough! ive had no pain on sex or bleeding through my cycle. I'm 30 by the way.
Is bleeding during a smear always indicative of something awful??

[Amummyatlast]

Hurricane, I bleed during smears because I have cervical entropion (cervical erosion). It's where cells that are normally inside the cervix appear in the vagina and can cause bleeding. It's benign. I do think the consultant is being very hasty with his diagnosis, but then I'm not a doctor.

[Wistfulthinking]

I also have cervical erosion like Amummyatlast which is why I also spot after smear tests and it also caused spotting when I was 15 weeks with my first pregnancy. The doctors/nurses are not worried about this and I have not had any problematic /unusual smear results.

[Hurricaneinateacup]

I wondered about that.

I just can't understand why it was so painful. Embryo transfers use the same instrument and yet were pain free. I'm not surprised there was bleeding given how painful it was.

I will have to wait for the result I suppose.
I just feel like everytime I go there's something else.
Now in addition to a lap and hsg the consultant wants me to have a hysteroscopy because of what happened during the smear. I can't help thinking perhaps he is looking for some more cash because he knows we have the insurance...I don't know. Slightly cynical I guess. He seems to be fixated on this though rather than the male factor. I asked him yesterday about the male factor and he literally shrugged it off and said 'well it only takes one sperm' and yet originally we were told that chances of a natural conception were zero with the sperm results we have. And it doesn't only take one. It takes millions.

[CountryMummy1]

FWIW we had infertility for 3 years and when we finally decided to get some tests done we found that my DH's sperm results were worse than yours - 1%

[CountryMummy1]

1% morphology, 5% motility and highly viscous (thick). We were told IVF was the only way.

Whilst on the waiting list we tried Clomid (unsuccessful) and still tried naturally at home. We were so knackered and sick of sex that one night I got DH to make his deposit into a cup and used a syringe to insert it as high as I could myself. I was pregnant that month! Unfortunately it resulted in miscarriage.

I went on to have 4 miscarriages and 2 children and every month I self Inseminated I got pregnant. I also have a tilted uterus and the doctor said that possibly the sperm just couldn't negotiate the more difficult route as they were weaker than normal but depositing them higher up helped.

Maybe worth a try? X

[CountryMummy1]

Also, the recurrent miscarriage clinic blamed our age and the poor morphology for the frequent miscarriages.

[naty1]

With icsi it does only take 1.
We have now been pg 2 times with 3 egg collections. dH sperm 0.5million no other measurements as too few.
I was 32 and 35.
We have had awful fertilisation rates though around 25% but i link that to my pcos and being triggered too early.

About the smear - for the transfers would you have had a full bladder maybe affecting how uterus was tilting?

Also hormones can make things tighter , when i was bf it was very painful as no periods.

We started off with pcos then added mfi, and hypothyroidism.

How did your ivf cycles go, did you get a lot fertilised. Did the embryos look good quality? As on our failed cycle they were lower quality.

Ivf really is just luck as so much is not understood.

[Hurricaneinateacup]

He meant for a natural conception! He said 'if you have the lap, hsg and hysteroscopy you might have a chance of a natural conception.' When I mentioned the male factor he brushed it off - but that's what we were organically referred for!
They said even the best sperm looked odd.

We had ok fertilisation rates - 7 out of 9 both times I think - but the embryos were useless. That's why I can't understand why he's going on about implantation being the issue. No embryos made it to day 5. First cycle we had two 6 cells at day 3, the rest had given up. Second cycle we only had one 7 cell, the rest had given up. Not completely given up but very very slow and then gave to completely around day 4.
This is why we are looking at donor treatment.

[Boysclothes]

Sounds like he's jumped on the bleeding as an excuse to get you your lap etc on your insurance. I think he's looking out for you really. Even if it is embryo quality that's not working, it's still worth getting all your bits checked out. Would be awful to get brilliant embryos and THEN find out there's an implantation issue.

Take his advice and get the procedures done on insurance. If there's no problem then another discussion with him regarding what to do next, with a back up of proceeding to DE of necessary.

[Hurricaneinateacup]

I suppose so...I will just give up rather than have all those procedures. I can't take the time off work. It's just all too complicated. I don't want to tell them what's happening and I've not been in my job long. It's too awkward and difficult trying to sort it all out.

It's obviously just not meant to be. The insurance are hedging their bets anyway - they're looking into the claim because I've had previous fertility treatment. I am dubious as to whether they will cover me.

I don't like the consultant. I went off him when he told me to lie to my gp and insurance.

[sophie150]

Why did they wait til day 5? We were told of they had less than 3 at day 3 they would pick the best two to implant which they did each time (although there was only one embryo in the second cycle). We got lucky third time round on day 3 embryos.
Good luck with your treatment - it is so emotionally exhausting but for us a third cycle was successful. I also think choice of clinic is very important- we went to care in Nottingham for our third and were really impressed with their professionalism, technology etc.

[Hurricaneinateacup]

They didn't - we had day 3 transfer. But none of the remaining ones carried on after day 4 which didn't look particularly promising for the returned ones.

[naty1]

I have seen on sites 6 cell day 3 work for some people. But i guess a combination between cells and fragmentation.
Ive had a 8 cell a/b - bfp
8 cell b and 6 cell b/c - bfn
8 cell a/b and 10 cell a/b - bfp
The 8 cell day 3 have the best chance
But also i think my thyroid levels were high on try 2 (tsh maybe 4 so that may also have made a difference.

Could imsi help? As its possible the sperm are morpologically wrong?
I think though sperm makes more difference after day 3.
If youre 30 that seems young to have to move to donor eggs.

[Boysclothes]

Well of course now he's said cancerous polyp you need to get that checked out anyway. Then you take some time to think about things x

[naty1]

We had 2 ones left growing on this last cycle 6 cell day 3 low quality 1 got to morula but both arrested.
I guess if the ones left growing are similar quality to what is transferred. But still they try to pick the best