Sadly, I think farage was probably right

(214 Posts)
MarathonFan Mon 19-May-14 08:21:22

Romanians next door

I know the right minded middle classes on Mumsnet will think his comments outrageous but among people I know in less affluent areas where this is actually happening (rather than naice white British areas where it's less likely to be a real "problem") it would cause concern.

A few doors from here we have a Lithuanian family (not the same thing at all I know but East Europeans often lumped together). The children go to school with mine and they are a lovely family but among the other neighbours they are viewed very much with suspicion - one calls the police every time they have friends visiting because "they must be up to no good when that many of "them" get together"

So whilst I don't agree with Farage, I hope I'd take any new neighbour as I found them, I do think he's probably right when he says "most" people would be concerned and with some grounds as Romanian gangs are responsible for a lot of crime.

Obviously the man's an idiot and a dangerous one at that but sadly, I think he is talking the same language as a lot of people on the UK and not allowing factual things to be said just strengthens their feeling that white British people are losing all their rights while immigrants are untouchable.

Tanith Mon 19-May-14 08:38:42

It's the specification of "Romanian", though. Other nationalities, including our own, have criminal gangs. He should be concentrating on the criminal gangs aspect, not their nationality.

Keith Vaz has a point. Exactly the same concerns were made about Asians in the 60s and "those blacks" in the 50s.

MarathonFan Mon 19-May-14 09:07:45

Absolutely Tanith, I'm not saying the majority would be right to be concerned. Simply that it is true that they would be. Denying anyone the right to voice those concerns makes the problem bigger because they feel that "they" are preventing them from speaking.

DenzelWashington Mon 19-May-14 10:45:08

not allowing factual things to be said just strengthens their feeling that white British people are losing all their rights while immigrants are untouchable

The problem is establishing tow hat degree any of this is factual, and not prejudice. All these things were said in the 1950s about African and African-Carobbean immigrants. They weren't true then. They may or may not be true now, but 'most people would be concerned and with some grounds as Romanian gangs are responsible for a lot of crime' is not evidence, it's bare assertion.

White British people are not losing any rights. To say so is ridiculous. Immigrants are not untouchable. The 'system'-whether that be the criminal justice system, housing and benefits system, and many others, does not work as it should. That means many people of all ethnicities get to take the piss for far too long before being brought to book, if at all. That is not by any measure the same as being 'untouchable'.

niceguy2 Mon 19-May-14 12:48:33

I'm not convinced that "Most" people would be concerned. I agree that "Some" people will be concerned regardless of what nationality and regardless of any logic.

Basically the acid test is this. Would your neighbour have called the police if it were a German family inviting their friends round instead?

If the answer is yes then all is well (except neighbour needs to get a grip). If the answer is no then he/she is a racist.

AndHarry Mon 19-May-14 13:10:26

I have Romanian neighbours. So far, their crimes have included completely redoing their front garden so that mine looks decidedly unkempt, spending an entire weekend putting up a fence (for free) that benefits 4 houses other than their own, and giving my children Easter eggs that I ate. Yes I am concerned but only because they're far better neighbours than I am!

BuzzardBird Mon 19-May-14 13:12:58

That is lovely smile

Trinovantes Mon 19-May-14 13:21:44

I'm not middle-class, but I do live in London. I'm sure there's plenty of people about who are total idiots about Romanians, or whoever else becomes the scapegoat-of-the-moment. That's why it's up to us to put them straight when we get nudge-nudge-wink-wink comments about "those people" (whoever those people might be) from other people, whether in the playground at pickup time, from our own families, or from the bloke in the corner shop. It's easy to be embarrassed about (politely, and without a fuss) challenging stupid stuff our friends, family and neighbours say, but if you don't, they'll think you share their views. I'm not advocating shouting RACIST NUTJOB at them (however tempting it is), but just asking questions and pointing out inaccuracies when people are talking utter bollocks and expecting you to go along with it.

squizita Mon 19-May-14 13:27:52

AndHarry Ditto. Except I never got any eggs! ;)

As a child of immigrants it winds me up, hearing the same old record that got my dad/his siblings bullied at school to the point he would hide his true accent/culture, and my maternal side labelled potential terrorists in the 70s-80s purely on their name (they were/are all employed from the day they left school/college, and utterly respectable in every way, I hasten to add).

But I hear the most shocking stuff from people. Some so brainwashed they'll say it in the pub or cafe not realising an Eastern European or Muslim friend/colleague is right there mortified (because in their mind, they don't 'read' that 'normal' person as in the group they villify).

MarathonFan Mon 19-May-14 13:28:13

Exactly Trinovantes but the "news" is about a terrible thing one idiot said, rather than addressing the fears, interviewing people like AndHarry who have a good story to tell, or providing stats that show actually the fears are unfounded.

If people were allowed to express their fears then "we" could argue against them but they're not, they just get called racist for expressing something they are genuinely feeling.

AndHarry, what is the cultural mix where you live and how did you and you neighbours feel when the Romanian family first moved in? i.e. when they were unknown, different and a possible threat, rather than now when all that has been disproved?

Puzzledandpissedoff Mon 19-May-14 13:36:26

FWIW the Metropolitan Police apparently released "arrests by nationality" under FOI laws - link below. It's true that the Romanian figure is very high in relation to their total numbers, but of course it would be ridiculous to suggest that means ALL Romanians are criminals

AShadowStirsWithin Mon 19-May-14 13:37:26

Do people actually think like this? Really? So if a Romanian family moved into a house people would actually worry about criminal gangs? I find that as ridiculous as saying that a French family moving in would be wearing stripey jumpers and berets. Romania is a big country full of lots of different people. Just like every other country. Germany had the Nazis, Somaiia has pirates, but that doesn't mean that every person from every country with even the slightest dubious past or present should be viewed with suspicion. That way madness lies. If people are really handwringing about the neighbours because they are of a nationality that has gangs then they need to get a grip. Are we going to be worried about Italians aswell because they might be Mafia? Utterly ridiculous and designed once again to whip up media based hysteria about those "other" than us.

Unfortunately, what the "it's not racist it's just what I really think" brigade think are often people who are… racist.

So then the question becomes do we want to live in a society where racist people are enabled in their perceived right to spout their ill-informed (well Daily Mail informed) prejudices as just what they think, or do we want to live in a society that isn't racist?

Better to keep challenging their bullshit really. Either they will reflect and change their opinions or not. Like someone I know, who was going on about feckless benefit scroungers and was extremely surprised when I pointed out that unemployment benefit is a fraction of the welfare bill. She said she thought it would be at least a third going to long-term unemployed people "sitting around supported by hard working people like her paying their tax", based on what her mum had read in the paper.

So yeah, I guess people have the right to say what they think. Just as we have the right to inform them that what they think is uninformed bollocks.

MarathonFan Mon 19-May-14 13:40:28

TBH Puzzled, I don't think even the most committed UKIP supporters/Daily Mail readers really believe that all Romanians are criminals. It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable that they might have concerns that their new neighbours are in a group that contains a disproportionally high number of criminals - until they get to know them as people. i.e on getting the news that they will be moving in, which is what Farage was saying, not once they've been there for a while like AndHarry's neighbours.

MarathonFan Mon 19-May-14 13:42:00

Yes, Buffy but that's not what's happened with Farage. People aren't telling him and his supporters why he's wrong, they're just saying he was wrong to say it.

DenzelWashington Mon 19-May-14 13:42:05

I certainly agree that people should be able to express fears and discuss immigration. And lo and behold, people are 'expressing their fears' all over the place. Well, all over the internet, certainly.

The crime figures in relation to Romanians could reflect all kinds of things: activities by organised criminal gangs, higher visibilty and notoriety (whether or not deserved) that means policing is concentrating on Romanians, etc.

And I'd be very interested to know how many worried people can tell the difference-just by looking- between Romanians, Turks, Bulgarians, Moldovans, Albanians, Greeks and any other Caucasian/Adriatic/Eastern Mediterranean nationality you care to name.

It may be that 'Romanian' is just our latest label for a generic 'immigrant we are afraid of' rather than an accurate description of the source of any problems.

Puzzledandpissedoff Mon 19-May-14 13:44:46

It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable that they might have concerns that their new neighbours are in a group that contains a disproportionally high number of criminals - until they get to know them as people

Exactly, Marathon; as ever, reaching out in a friendly way can make all the difference smile

TortoiseUpATreeAgain Mon 19-May-14 13:46:41

I would worry if Nigel Farage moved in next door. Can we use that as the basis of a legislative platform, please?

According to British crime stats men are nearly 20 times more likely to be convicted and imprisoned for violence against the person than women.

Does that mean it is also reasonable for people to be concerned when a man moves into a neighbouring property? Y'know, if they're concerned about living next to those Romanians who are associated with gangs dontcha know.

AndHarry Mon 19-May-14 13:53:47

The town I live in has a white British minority but the area I'm in specifically is more 'white' than other parts of the town. When my neighbour sold her house I was relieved that it was to a family but also worried about whether they would be good neighbours - as much as I would have done about any new neighbours. My main concern was over the timing of baking a cake for them grin

Kendodd Mon 19-May-14 13:54:07

My mum (retired, lived much of her life on benefits although goes on about how she worked all her life) was telling me yesterday that Romanians get more benefit money than she does. I said, so, two people, both on benefits with exactly the same circumstances, one British one Romanian, the Romanian will get more money just because they're Romanian? 'Yes they will', she replied and that she 'knows this for a fact'.

What can you say to that?


Yes, Buffy but that's not what's happened with Farage. People aren't telling him and his supporters why he's wrong, they're just saying he was wrong to say it.

So now I am confused about your point. You don't think he is right about Romanians, but you do not think people should say that what he said was racist? Or you think that some people are racist afraid of living near Romanians and therefore, it was OK for him to say that some people felt this way?

Sorry, I am probably being dim.

Kendodd Mon 19-May-14 13:58:05

BTW the only Romanian I know earns a massive salary in the city. And they came here as an asylum seeker shock

Our Romanian neighbours have, disgustingly, invited us round for coffee, brought us a gift when our baby DD was born, and invited us to their son's birthday party. Of course the birthday party was just a cover for them getting together with their gang, and the gift was to keep us sweet hmm

Farage may be right that people worry when Eastern European people arrive as neighbours (I certainly didn't care about our neighbour's country of origin when we moved in), but if he's trying to use it as a stick to beat immigrants with, he's out of order - the only people it reflects badly on are the NIMBY Little Englanders who can't handle change.

MarathonFan Mon 19-May-14 14:10:35

Yes, I think that he's right to say that's how lots of people feel - then we can address that. Not allowing him (or them) to say it means they feel they don't have a voice/the country's being taken over by "them" and that only reinforces their (ridiculous) views

But do 'lots of people' feel this way, or is it simply a very vocal minority of UKIP racists who, if given airtime, will continue to assume that they are the hardworking, put upon majority?

MarathonFan Mon 19-May-14 14:16:40

I don't know about the population as a whole but in my very white British, very working class part of the SE, where we have had a big influx of East Europeans there are very many people who feel that way, yes.

That was my point - nice middle class people, living in nice areas which immigration has only touched to a very small degree (and often then it's doctors/solicitors etc) can easily dismiss these concerns. Not so easy when you're living it and the very real problems some of them do cause.

Equally people living in properly multi-cultural area may have fewer concerns because it's not the fear of the unknown for them in the same way.

Tanith Mon 19-May-14 14:37:48

Instead of saying "This is the way people feel, let's show them they're worrying about nothing.", Farage has been happily fuelling the flames because it suits his agenda.

I think that's why he's wrong to have said what he did.

DenzelWashington Mon 19-May-14 15:17:34

Not allowing him (or them) to say it

Nobody, but nobody, is being prevented from saying anything. That's a complete fallacy. There is a huge debate about immigration going on in this country and it has been going on at full pelt since before the last election.

If your neighbours are not being listened to, OP, it is not because they are white Britons, it is probably because increasingly politicians ignore ordinary voters across the board. I mean, you aren't suggesting politicians are listening to immigrants and people from ethnic minorities, are you? Because I can assure you they aren't. Party donors, the ultra-wealthy, media moguls and lobbyists yes, people like me, hell no.

If there is a problem here it is that racists want to say racist things without suffering the stigma of being labelled racists.

mercibucket Mon 19-May-14 15:28:11

romanian is being used a short hand for roma
discriminating by nationality rather than ethnic group
many east european roma are incredibly hard work as neighbours. they come from a background of prejudice and discrimination, but they are still hard work wrt school truancy, begging, theft and burglary. that is how it is where i live, anyway.

doziedoozie Mon 19-May-14 18:27:33

I watched a programme on the tv last summer which had film of the roma who run pickpocket gangs in European capital cities. Horrible, they have children doing the crime and returning the takings to the controllers.

So if much of the pickpocketing is down to them than the stats will show that they carry out the most crimes. Though stats are always behind the times so hopefully this isn't happening now.

So NF is prob correct about the crime figures whether interviewers barrack him or not.

WetAugust Mon 19-May-14 19:36:00

Watched C4 news this evening and listened to the Romanian woman saying that she would not like to live next door to Romanians.

ROFLMAO at that!

claig Mon 19-May-14 19:41:53

Jon Slow of Channel 4 News didn't know what to do.

WetAugust Mon 19-May-14 22:36:33

Yep, it was hilarious.

Now Newnight is banging on about it too. I am especially disappointed in Jeremy Paxman as I thought he was too intelligent to focus on something as trivial as Farage's remarks about Romanians, when he should know the big picture is actually the inability of the UK to police its own borders.

And don't get me started on Nick Robinson on the BBC. He really is going to far as a so-called political commentator. On Five Live last night they were gleefully calling Farage 'a worm'.

If I was Farage I would draw stumps, collect may ball and piss off back home. If we are that determined to just give our country away then let them get on with it. It must be so tedious for him to have to listen to the prodding drivial from so-called politicos.

It's oK, I've found the Off Switch!

ExcuseTypos Mon 19-May-14 22:40:23

Farage is talking about it now On BBC2.

He's backtracking a bit!

ExcuseTypos Mon 19-May-14 22:42:47

Wet I don't think his comments were "trivial" and nor do many others.

ExcuseTypos Mon 19-May-14 22:43:55

Apparently it's actually Italian criminal gangs who cause the most crime in Europe, not Romanians.

Jinsei Mon 19-May-14 22:49:11

I think some people might be concerned because idiots like Farage tell them that they should be. I think this whole "blunder" was probably a calculated attempt to make people think that there might actually be something to worry about.

I would be very concerned if a group of UKIP voters moved in next door to me.

Jinsei Mon 19-May-14 22:50:38

Apparently it's actually Italian criminal gangs who cause the most crime in Europe, not Romanians.

shock Does that mean that my lovely Italian neighbours are actually part of the mafia?!


ExcuseTypos Mon 19-May-14 22:54:10

Probably Jinsei- and they'd better stop all that Pizza and pasta eating in this country- it can only encourage the criminality!

claig Mon 19-May-14 22:59:56

"Now Newnight is banging on about it too. I am especially disappointed in Jeremy Paxman as I thought he was too intelligent to focus on something as trivial as Farage's remarks about Romanians"

Wet, they all have to. There is no way out for them. They all work for The Man.Channel 4 was an absolute joke with Jon Doh! and co spending about 15 minutes trying to do Farage down. The Man runs them all. But Paxman is a great guy, you can tell his heart is not with The Man, you can tell that he would enjoy a pint with Nigel and the people.

"If we are that determined to just give our country away then let them get on with it. It must be so tedious for him to have to listen to the prodding drivial from so-called politicos."

We aren't, but The Man is. Farage puts up with it because he meets the real people and they are with him.

tallulah Mon 19-May-14 23:09:18

But he wasn't talking about a Romanian family. He said a group of Romanian men. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want a group of men of any nationality living next door. We have a group of men living opposite and they are PITA enough. No idea what nationality they are (and don't care) but they make a lot of noise.

claig Mon 19-May-14 23:11:35

"but they make a lot of noise"

I hope they're not the Bullingdon Club. No one I know has a good word to say about them.

claig Mon 19-May-14 23:20:16

They have got a "radical leftist" on now. The Man always invites "radical leftists" and as always the "radical leftist" hasn't got a clue. He thinks it is only about economics and capitalism.

He doesn't understand the people. Like all"radical leftists" he can't see the elephant in the room and that is culture not capitalism and economics. The Man understands it, which is why The Man always makes sure to invite "radical leftists" on because they don't understand it.

mum2030 Mon 19-May-14 23:27:50

I'm pretty depressed about the Paxo interview because he just adopted an air of highbrow superiority but was unable to produce some good hard stats to challenge Farages claims. There must be some.

I don't know why Romanians have become such bogeymen. Is it because of racist views of Roma? Why haven't UKIP got a downer on Bulgarians - maybe because there are less of them.

I am not convinced by Met Police stats - they are just about numbers of arrests - not convictions. How does anyone know what the persons arrested were actually arrested for - esp if classified as "other"

Has anyone got the actual source of the 7% of all crimes in EU are committed by Romanians.

claig Mon 19-May-14 23:30:02

'Has anyone got the actual source of the 7% of all crimes in EU are committed by Romanians.'

That stat turned out to be wrong

WetAugust Mon 19-May-14 23:46:52

Yes, the Newnight lefty got on my nerves! WTFs all this about cultural richness? Sorry, your average worker couldn'T give a monkey!s about cultural enrichment. That's for ponce-tastic lefties that live in London. I,m listening to all this thinking okay, so he works for Reuters, the organisation ghost gathers news, but what qualifies him yo tell me that beg in the EU is the tight thing for the uk.
But, Newsnight actually said the EU Parliament cannot initiate legislation,and costs us billions.
Didn't Paxo look bored when the bearded chap with the dodgy mike gave us a soliloquy ?

SnowinBerlin Mon 19-May-14 23:47:16

Watched C4 news this evening and listened to the Romanian woman saying that she would not like to live next door to Romanians. ROFLMAO at that!

I went back and looked up C4news on playback and yep, it was a Romanian asylum seeker who'd been in the UK 35 years saying she'd not want to live next to Romanians.

She kept characterising them as 'unruly'. She was countered by another Romanian woman pointing out that people aren't criminal scum just because they are Romanian.

Farage was also tackled in the interview about his latest advert on Romanian crime where it was pointed out that both the Met Police and Europol had totally denied the statements and crime figures he attributed to them. He huffed and puffed.

I am genuinely puzzled by Romanians suddenly becoming the new bogeymen. What on earth supposedly makes them more dodgy than Poles, Lithuanians, the Scottish?

LadyWithLapdog Mon 19-May-14 23:50:21

I'm fucking sick of hearing of Farage and his pint of beer. I wouldn't have a pint with Farage. Perhaps he should cut down too and stop being a racist prick.

claig Mon 19-May-14 23:52:52

'Didn't Paxo look bored when the bearded chap with the dodgy mike gave us a soliloquy ?'

Yes, Paxo has to play the game and listen to the "radical leftists" and nod at appropriate intervals. They have Siszek on a lot. He is supposed to be a "philosopher". The Man likes leftists and "thinkers" like that because they confuse the public and bore them and that is how The Man likes the piublic so that the people are unable to see what The Man is actually doing to them.

Farage has got The Man rattled because the people are backing Farage and The Man is losing control. That is why The Man ended up by inviting "the radical leftist" on at the end in order to confuse the people and stop them waking up.

LadyWithLapdog Mon 19-May-14 23:55:06

Blimey. Someone's had a pint too many.

claig Mon 19-May-14 23:58:24

'Someone's had a pint too many.'

You can never have too much milk.

SnowinBerlin Mon 19-May-14 23:58:53

The Man? Yo cat, whatever. hmm

humns theme to Shaft

claig Tue 20-May-14 00:01:07

The Man is the establishment, the elite and as Farage said in the debate with Cleggy
"Join the people's army, let's topple the establishment that got us into this mess"

The attacks on Farage are a sign that The Man is rattled.

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 00:01:39

[...] too much milk.

British cows, yes? Milked by British hands. Distributed to everyone, even British racists. Oh, man.

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 00:03:13

NF as a revolutionary. Truly, people are fucking stupid to give him airtime.

claig Tue 20-May-14 00:10:28

This is from the Telegraph journalist who was on newsnight tonight

"Ukip is a very British revolution"

To understand why, you have to understand The Man.

"Radical leftists" are no threat to The Man which is why they are always invited onto TV.

Farage is attacked by every newspaper and every news channel because The Man is rattled, because leaving the EU is against the wishes of The Man.

WetAugust Tue 20-May-14 00:18:49

How weird. I was about to write that we are seeing a Very British Revolution, before I saw what you had posted Claig.

And it that drama is the very scary moment when Francis Urqhuat tells the usurper that his people have ruled since the Middle Ages and have no intention of giving up power. Spooky.

Anyone who follows politocs knows that UKIP is all about leaving the EU - not immigration as the media seems to be intent on dwelling on. Anything to keep the focus off leaving the EU. I'm pretty disgsuted with them.

So, how do you solve a problem like Farage. He's beaten cancer and survived a plane crash. If I were him I'd stay away from men carrying umbrellas.

SnowinBerlin Tue 20-May-14 00:22:30

The attacks on Farage are a sign that The Man is rattled.

Farage went to one of the very top public schools in the country (Dulwich) and then worked as a City trader. He's pretty 'establishment' himself.

But I don't care about his background other than the fact he misrepresents it. He was caught lying about Romanians on the news tonight, with completely made up stats about their criminality.

claig Tue 20-May-14 00:26:17

They can't stop Farage. He is so positive,so cheerful, so optimistic, so full of bonhomie, so happy with a fag and a pint, that nothing will get him down. None of the attacks by the establishment will really affect him and that is why the people back him even more. The people know that whatever they throw at him, Farage won't quit and they think that he is the type of straight-talking, spirited, fearless, honest person that can actually fix the country. They don't come around often, but the people think they have seen one now.

SnowinBerlin Tue 20-May-14 00:26:35

So, how do you solve a problem like Farage. He's beaten cancer and survived a plane crash.

That's the interesting thing about Farage and UKIP. He's a doughty little scrapper and a big personality. But he's in lousy health and if he dropped dead tomorrow UKIP would wither and die probably.

claig Tue 20-May-14 00:28:09

'He's pretty 'establishment' himself'

Just because someone comes from the establishment doesn't mean that they won't rock the status quo. George Orwell went to Eton, but he wasn't in the Bullingdon Club as far as I know.

PatrickStarisabadbellend Tue 20-May-14 00:30:00

One thing I would like to see addressed is the amount of homeless Eastern Europeans and Turkish males living on the streets of Chester.

The locals May not see it much but believe me the numbers are amazing. My friend is a street cleaner who starts early in the morning. She is truely shocked and sometimes frightened by what is going on.

claig Tue 20-May-14 00:33:23

'UKIP would wither and die probably'

No, it is a movement. It is a revolution because it matches the public mood. For years, UKIP did not have such success and did not match teh public mood, but now it does because teh public have had enough of the failure of teh political class who do not represent them.

"This is the home of Britain's Ukip's revolution.

Two years ago, Ramsey became the first town to be controlled by the anti-Europe party."

"The complaints are common to many parts of Britain. But why Ramsey? "This part of the world has a history of thinking outside of the box," says Mr Reeve. "The revolution against the king started here. The pub was owned by Crowmell's borther. If something's going wrong, people will tolerate so much from their political class. But they hit a point where, actually, they're not putting up with it any more." Quite what they refuse to put up with remains unclear. But if the question is muddled, the answer seems to be Ukip."

I'd much, much rather live next door to Romanians than UKIP supporters.

claig Tue 20-May-14 00:37:22

"Quite what they refuse to put up with remains unclear. But if the question is muddled, the answer seems to be Ukip"

This is what The Man is trying to understand. Why?
It is no use The Man asking Cleggy and the Oxbridge crew because not one of them has a clue. To understand it, you have to understand the people who shake Farage's hand and think he is "one of us". The elite don't get it, they can't understand it, because they don't understand the people.

claig Tue 20-May-14 00:40:55

I didn't like the way Paxo ended the interview by asking Farage "How's your health?"

Was that a scripted question?

KissesBreakingWave Tue 20-May-14 04:18:36

I am honestly giggling over the idea that a public-school-educated stockbroker who is fine with handing over british sovereignty to foreign corporations (go look up TIPP some time, UKIP are in favour), dismantling the NHS and importing even more of the foreign ideology Thatcher followed as being in any way against The Man. And he has the cheek to bang on about Romanians even though they're leaving in droves.

Basically a vote for UKIP is a vote for 'what we were getting from the tories, only harder and rougher'

KissesBreakingWave Tue 20-May-14 04:20:51

And, since they have a lovely habit of calling the police on dissenters, with even less lube.

DoctorTwo Tue 20-May-14 07:21:38

Farridge and those like him don't like dissent. When their 'facts' are proved wrong they get the police in.

Farridge and UKIP are that patriotic, like Kisses wrote, that they're willing to hand untold power to foreign corporations under TTIP. If you haven't heard of that it's because the corporations and the European Council are trying to keep it quiet.

SnowinBerlin Tue 20-May-14 08:06:58

Was that a scripted question?

It's a fair question. Despite being younger than Johnny Depp (!) Farage looks considerably older, has an unhealthy lifestyle, and has a number of extremely debilitating health problems, including spinal damage. I remember John Smith being asked exactly the same questions when he was Labour leader.

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 08:13:24

The pint and the fag will take their toll too. And the stress of living with a German wife and German speaking sons. That must be pretty exhausting for a man like him.

Mumzy Tue 20-May-14 08:51:10

I think if anyone has experienced the aggressive begging from the Roma: wiping a filthy rag over your windscreen when you stop at traffic lights, despite your protests, then demanding money for their trouble, women cradling sleeping (probably drugged) babies, toddlers (I have walked past some of these beggars 3-4 hours later and the dcs haven't moved from their sleeping position) in Oxford street and demanding money, imported Roma Big issue sellers WTF will understand Nigel Farages sentiments and his comments will resonate with them.

It will resonate them if they have not an ounce of compassion in their bones sad.

mercibucket Tue 20-May-14 09:09:34

difference with poles etc

i still think romanian doesnt mean nationality
it is a code for east european roma. so the difference with poles etc is ethnicity not nationality.

if you have had a large influx of roma to your town, you will see the difference. a lot of mental health problems. a lot of physical disabilities. a lack of schooling so truanting. begging. pickpocketing. stealing for scrap. chucking rubbish out in the street

ignoring this does not make it go away

it is a big strain on local resources (schools hospitals gp police tax credits ) for poor working class communities

national support in the form of money but also community workers is welcome but not much in evidence
all we get are cuts to local authority budgets.

SnowinBerlin Tue 20-May-14 09:10:28

Farage is conflating Romanian and Roma (who may or may not be Romanian).

mercibucket Tue 20-May-14 09:18:40

i forgot to add

this either affects your town a lot or if doesnt affect it at all. we are talking large scale migration of sometimes whole villages, to a particular town or district of a town.

Roma are a hugely stigmatised and oppressed group. Farage is just exploiting that to enhance his position. Twat.

mercibucket Tue 20-May-14 09:21:55

it is not farage who is leaving poor underfunded communities to deal with the results of decades of oppression and stigma from their already stretched budgets

mercibucket Tue 20-May-14 09:24:00

i think my town is going to vote ukip in large numbers

there is no support from central govt that i see. people are being pushed not pulled towards ukip

massive failure on the part of the political elite imo

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 09:30:49

I don't people have a problem with Romanians it's Roma gypsies. I don't think there is anything wrong with having a immigration rule similar to Australia (which UKIP want). Sadly people have become ridiculously left wing, with political correctness etc and I fear it is too late. Were are turning into cultural Marxists!

Lets not forget hilter's party started as a socialist party bringing pension and an NHS to there people it was even called the socialist party at one time and compared to Marxism. We are actually going down a dangerous left wing route at the moment. This is what people are missing and 75% of our laws are made in Brussels were a tiny country and becoming vastly over populated.

Arcadia Tue 20-May-14 09:38:47

I was really pleased when Romanians moved in next to us as they were polite, friendly and clean and tidy, compared to the previous tenants. Also I am quarter Romanian so chatted to them about my family there. I was far more gutted when students moved in after them, had many more problems with them!
Ridiculous comment by Farage.

TooLongInTheBog Tue 20-May-14 09:40:31

dolina, are you for real? It's like Clarkson Bingo: "political correctness" - tick. "Hitler's party started as socialist" - tick. "Laws made in Brussels" - tick.

This is the sort of thing in the current drift of politics - cutting back on employment rights; cutting back on regulation designed for the public good in favour of large private companies; increased privatisation and the bargain selling off of public assets to private companies; housing ghettoisation by moving low-income households out of city centres in favour of megabucks developments and the super-rich. How can you describe this as "going down a dangerous left-wing route"?

I wish we were going down a dangerous left wing route. No such luck.

TooLongInTheBog Tue 20-May-14 09:42:10

Plus, if anyone in the UK (including dolina) thinks they aren't descended from immigrants themselves, they need to learn some British history. Every damn person in the British Isles who isn't an immigrant themselves is descended from immigrants. Every damn one.

SnowinBerlin Tue 20-May-14 09:44:01

Were are turning into cultural Marxists!

I know my Harpo from my Karl. Can I be one?

I wish we were going down a dangerous left wing route. No such luck.


LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 09:57:09

Dolina - if you're not an immigrant what has prevented you from learning to spell and punctuate?

It hampers the flow of the hate fuelled, spittle flecked rant to concern the blind repetitor of right wing propaganda brave truth telling revolutionary with such prosaic concerns as correct use of the English language. Chuh!

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 10:06:25

Of course we all come from immigrants does that mean we should be an open door for everyone and their dog? We were not racist before the Maastricht treaty.

I still think we are too left wing. I agree with UKIP that universities should be for the top 20% cognitively elite not more than 50% of the population going and if half the population are above average intelligence half are below clearly lots of dumbos go to university. I would rather give the brightest kids free university, but as now a huge percent of the population works for the public sector it keeps the lefty think tank going.

The money is simply not there is to be paying out millions to the EU either to Brussels, benefits to EU migrants children back home. Bet most of you are glad we didn't join the euro?

Bell curve?

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 10:14:06

I agree with the bell curve. Try telling that to some boosting Mother's though!

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 10:17:16

Dolina - you don't need university. You need to go back to primary school. Not only for spelling but a bit of history too.

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 10:18:43

Unless Dolina and her/his ilk are a cleverly disguised weapon of the Left to make anyone with right leaning tendencies stop and think twice about associating themselves with such racist morons.

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 10:19:49

Right lapdog lady correct my spelling. I know my punctuation is wrong, explain the spelling. Would you believe I'm a qualified teacher lol? Seriously honest to god truth!

You seem proud of this?

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 10:23:29

Lapdog lady I am not nor EVER have been racist. I have lots of Russia, black, polish, Asian friends all lovely people too.

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 10:25:54

Dolina - I d

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 10:26:27

I don't believe you are a teacher. I believe you are racist.

You are not racist, but you are against "Roma Gypsies"? What do your lovely "Russia, black, polish, Asian friends" think about that, eh?

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 10:27:10

Buffy it's just a fact of life, what's your take?

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 10:28:34

You use words like dumbos IRL? At school? As a teacher? Pull the other one.

Badvoc Tue 20-May-14 10:28:59

Some of the most thick as pigshit, misogynistic and racist people I have ever met have been teachers and policemen.
Very very worrying.

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 10:32:33

Ok Buffy I'm sure you would just love a load of Roma gypsies tipping their rubbish outside living next to you, I will give it a miss thanks all the same.

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 10:36:19

Lapdog lady I never said I am presently teaching as an occupation
I'm a qualified teacher that's what I said, ok.

My mother often called children in my presence dumbos, thick, stupid she was a head teacher for many many years. She called many a child clever too, she saw the difference.

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 10:37:57

Bet they'd be really quiet neighbours, what with being drugged and sleeping in 3-4 hour stretches as encountered by the concerned pp above.

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 10:39:57

Dolina - goes to show what being disrespectful breeds. But you know, don't blame it all on your mum. You have a choice to use your brain to overcome your shit upbringing. Racism is not genetic.

I wouldn't like to live near anybody who dumped rubbish in an inconsiderate way, no. But rubbish dumping isn't a racial characteristic and I've done enough work with disadvantaged groups to see them as just as much a person as me and just as deserving of respectful and humane treatment.

I find your elitism ironic, however. I suspect you won't understand why, but I imagine others on this thread will.

TooLongInTheBog Tue 20-May-14 10:57:45

My mother often called children in my presence dumbos, thick, stupid she was a head teacher for many many years. She called many a child clever too, she saw the difference.

I find this ....incredibly sad.

Dolina, it's not surprising that you have the attitudes you do, if you were brought up like that. But you are an adult, and you don't have to think like that any more. The world has moved on.

I, too, am surprised, BTW, that a qualified teacher writes the way you do (we all make mistakes, and typos always get in, but there are limits). I find it even more surprising now you have said you were brought up by someone serving as a Head Teacher.

CogitoErgoSometimes Tue 20-May-14 11:10:04

I'd be far more worried if a bunch of UKIP supporters moved in next door....

AgaPanthers Tue 20-May-14 12:36:25

Farage was right, but not very nice about it. Of course any given family from any nation could be lively or horrid. But just on the evidence we are mad to allow uncontrolled immigration from Romania and Lithuania, because these countries have the highest incarceration rate in our prisons, along with Jamaicans and Nigerians (and for those two we have been giving massive aid to try and repatriate their criminals).

It's not 'why is Farage such a beastly racist', but 'Why on earth do we want disproportionately unskilled [we don't check if they are, unlike, say, Americans], disproportionately criminal, people coming to England which already has one of the world's highest population densities and has a housing crisis'. That's the real question.

And there is simply no good answer. That's why UKIP will win the Euro Election. Because without any kind of vote consultation we have acquired 1.5 million immigrants from countries we previously had no connection with. It's insane.

AgaPanthers Tue 20-May-14 12:36:54

lovely, even. 'Lively' is of course estate agent code for 'lots of stabbings in the area'.

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 13:16:46

'disproportionately criminal'? Erm, in proportion to what? To total numbers? To the English people?

It's not just NF 'wasn't very nice'. He's spouting racist shit and inciting hate.

AgaPanthers Tue 20-May-14 13:24:44

Disproportionate to every other nationality in the UK, including British, Nigerian, Jamaican and so on.

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 13:42:48

Lady with lap dog. Perhaps you should go and learn about the Frankfurt school of Economics researching this is what has convinced me to vote UKIP.

TortoiseUpATreeAgain Tue 20-May-14 13:43:34

Can you give a source for that, AgaPanthers? I can't find anything relevant on the ONS site, but it isn't always the easiest to search so I might be missing something.

The Frankfurt School as in the originators of Critical Theory? You do realise that they are neo-Marxian in philosophy, yes? Horkheimer, Adorno, Habermas et al?

How on earth can Critical Theory justify your pseudo rational, relentlessly racist views?

AgaPanthers Tue 20-May-14 14:11:51
dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 14:35:33

Buffy obviously I do, I am sick of political correctness and having lefty propaganda shoved down my throat. I do not have racist views thank you very much, please refrain yourself from implying I do.

Either you mean 'refrain from' or 'restrain yourself from'.


And if you are using a perceived negative stereotype, whether you can back it up with stats or not, to make unpleasant generalisations about a particular race, generalisations that have actual negative consequences for those people, then yep. You Hold Racist Views.

And, you are using Frankfurt School Critical Theory as a basis for your objection to lefty propaganda? That's a little bit like basing your critique of Fascism on Mein Kampf. You get that, right? hmm

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 14:44:59

Not it's not and lots of people are understanding what going on a bit more now and others are being "good little Marxists" like yourself.

Yes it is. It really is.

BuzzardBird Tue 20-May-14 14:46:36

As soon as someone says "political correctness" they have lost the argument. It's a 'go-to' expression for people who know they are wrong, but can't think of a reasonable counter argument.

SnowinBerlin Tue 20-May-14 15:08:48

If anyone's wondering about the Frankfurt school conspiracy stuff, it's all about those pesky Jews using Marxism to subvert the West under the twin arms of 'Political Correctness' and 'Cultural Marxism'.

It's a conspiracy theory which has actually led me to give up on the Daily Telegraph, as every political story they run has a comment section infested with commentators screaming 'Frankfurt school' and listing verbatim those 11 subversionary tactics in the Wiki article.

TortoiseUpATreeAgain Tue 20-May-14 15:13:13

Looking at your own figures, it looks to me as though a significantly higher proportion of Vietnamese (350 prisoners from estimated population of 16,000), Jamaican (783 prisoners from estimated population of 51,000) and Somalian (408 prisoners from estimated population of 43,000) nationals are in prison than Romanians (671 prisoners from estimated population of 102,000).

Romanian levels are higher than, though not massively out of step with Afghan (169 prisoners from estimated population of 29,000), Iraqi (172 prisoners from estimated population of 30,000), Iranian (203 prisoners from estimated population of 39,000) or Nigerian (545 prisoners from estimated population of 105,000) nationals.

(Disclaimer: these tables are taking prison populations for England and Wales and comparing them to estimated population by nationality for the UK as a whole, so we have to assume that that discrepancy has a roughly equal effect across the board)

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 15:26:47

Buffy: What's your problem with the word refrain? Please enlighten me? I wouldn't use the word restrain as that suggest physical whereas
refrain can be used in a legal term.

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 15:28:46

Oh I get it your back to the grammar seriously get a grip!

Nah, keep your grip. You can use it to help get a better hold on the subtleties of political theory and the English language?

Thanks Snow I'd only read (and read about) the actual Critical Theory of the Frankfurt School. Didn't realise that some racist frothers used the heritage of some of the scholars to develop a conspiracy theory.

Every day an education.

AgaPanthers Tue 20-May-14 15:44:08

Tortoise, which data are you looking at? I was looking at country of birth (which could differ from nationality admittedly), and I got 145,000 Jamaica, 28,000 Vietnam, 91,000 Somalia, and 101,000 Romania. On that basis only Vietnam is higher than Romania.

I think country of birth is preferable (because if you've spent 30 years in Vietnam and naturalized after 5 years in the UK, the Vietnamese background is much longer), but obviously the prison figures look at nationality (though how they handled dual nationality I don't know), so my figures might not be that reliable.

Obviously we don't have an open immigration policy from Vietnam or Somalia though, whereas we do from Romania.

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 15:53:23

Dolina - you're barely literate. Please shut the f* up about schools of thought. Go and learn some English.

DenzelWashington Tue 20-May-14 15:57:49

Quite enjoying watching dolina trying to argue with the grown-ups, in an idle 'poke the would-be-trolly-numpty with a stick' kind of way.

Deverethemuzzler Tue 20-May-14 16:02:07

People commit crimes for many reasons. Their nationality is not one of them.

Their income, education, circumstances, available choices, access to public funds etc are some of the reasons why some groups are over represented in the criminal justice system.

Romanians are not a homogeneous lump anymore than UK born people are. I have worked with Romanian families who are working and living an entirely respectable life. I have worked with Romanian families who are living an odd and unenviable half life and existing in the only way they know how.

It would stupid to state that no Romanians commit crime but it would be beyond moronic to state that Romanians commit crime because they are Romanian.

Farage is a fucking moron.

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 16:07:48

Well said, DW.

TortoiseUpATreeAgain Tue 20-May-14 16:47:55

I was looking at table 2.3, nationality (because "country of birth" will include people born abroad who came to the UK as children and also, I assume, UK nationals who just happen to have been born abroad (I know several white British people who happen to have been born in Nigeria, for example, because that's where their parents were working at the time)).

Owllady Tue 20-May-14 16:59:22

Are there statistics to say migrant workers are unskilled? The ones I know are well qualified but do do lower paid work here than they are qualified to do

AgaPanthers Tue 20-May-14 17:00:43

I would imagine that the proportion of Nigerian-born people in the UK who do not have Nigerian parents is quite low.

For Romania there were only 7,000 born there on the 2001 Census, but 101,000 in 2012. Clearly there has not been a sudden baby boom among British people in Romania.

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 17:02:55

Maybe that's what Dolina meant by 'disproportionately unskilled'. Out if proportion with their real qualifications and abilities wink

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 17:05:19

So there are lots of Romanisns in the UK now compared to 11 years ago. Is that the point you're trying to make? Times have changed. Now get over the hysteria.

TortoiseUpATreeAgain Tue 20-May-14 17:05:27

Yes, you'll notice that the Romanian figures for "born in Romania" and "Romanian nationality" are quite similar. But that doesn't apply to the other nationalities under discussion.

In my opinion, if someone is a British citizen then they are a British citizen and I'm not going to start down the "no, you're really [insert other nationality here] because you were born there" route. If you want to do that, knock yourself out, but I'm going on nationality.

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 17:08:27

Do people really have such short memories? Do you remember the predicted floods of immigrants coming by land, by air, by sea on the stroke of 12 on the 1st of January this year? And how it hasn't happened. We are talking lies and hatred spouted 4 months ago. Have you forgotten the abject articles run by the abject tabloids?

Owllady Tue 20-May-14 17:25:25

I thought the 7000 Romanians were born in Nigeria confused

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 18:07:46
Owllady Tue 20-May-14 18:10:34



But is that comparing like with like? It would have more impact if it were and I worry that it is comparing 'now' with 'ever'.

mercibucket Tue 20-May-14 19:00:08

has happened here, LadywithLapdog, although probably since the summer of last year (the arbitrary jan date was always ridiculous when most could always come over anyway)

apparently a village moved here confused (reputable source of info)

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 19:00:47

Buffy, do you mean prevalence vs incidence? Yeah, I'm sure that given enough time in the UK to commit their many crimes the Romanians may reach the heights of crime stats of the UKIP MEPs smile

mercibucket Tue 20-May-14 19:17:11

on here at the bottom is an interesting article about roma in the uk. it explains, imo, some of the areas of conflict when large numbers of roma move 'en masse' to an area, as well as the oppression they have previously faced. it focuses on salford but has other examples from elsewhere

mercibucket Tue 20-May-14 19:17:29

I might mean prevalence versus incidence <shuffles feet>

Mostly I mean that statistics are political and if the point is that some people's ignorant knee-jerk prejudice against a particular ethnicity is completely unsupportable by fact, it helps if there isn't an obvious flaw in the presentation of said fact. IYKWIM?

But a minor point really.

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 19:48:49

Plenty Romanians over here, they came before 1/1/14 and said "they were self employed" sold the big issue and claimed all the benefits, that's how they work it. Big issue sellers are self employed. I have a friend that works for a homeless charity and she told me 80% of what she deals with are foreigners (Romanians and Poles). Ask nurses the money spent getting interpretors for foreigners in hospitals after being resident years. Visit Catholics schools overflowing with polish kids and it's not middle class poles it's deprived poles!

No one minds professional types migrating. My neighbour are Russian merchant bankers on one side and some wacky Dutch couple on the other and even an Indian doctor opposite. I don't mind any of them. If you moved some housing benefit type in everyone (including myself) who be concerned. The point I'm making is the "cream of these countries" is not coming over it's well the xxxx. What's so wrong with Australian immigration policies? We had them before 2004, we also managed to trade with Europe before 1992.

Deverethemuzzler Tue 20-May-14 19:54:58

even an Indian doctor?
What they let them be doctors now?

Animation Tue 20-May-14 20:12:41

Like listening to Alf Garnet!


dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 20:15:18

PhDs and doctors can go anywhere and rightfully so. There are not just filling up housing schemes, they are here to add something to our country which is greatly appreciated.

What do you add to 'our' country that we can appreciate dolina?

LadyWithLapdog Tue 20-May-14 20:24:55

Could your friend provide an 'interpretor' for you? You don't make much sense. And xxxx? What, words fail you?

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 20:27:49

Dolina my professional skills are very sought after, I am not a burden to your taxes. That's all you need to know.

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 20:31:23

Oh lap dog what's your problem? I think you must be one of these hard faced common people always looking for a fight. Thank goodness were not neighbours eh?

"Some housing benefit type" hmm

I'm claiming housing benefit and I'm as British as they come. So far I haven't added anything to this country but another mouth to feed.

Should I be removed from the country too? grin

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 20:41:58

Well we can look after our own and probably better if there was not so many.

And unless you have your own doctor who you paid to train and whose wages and costs you pay, never travel on a road, don't have your rubbish collected and so on, you are a burden on someone's taxes.

So, what do you add that we can appreciate? Because I am seeing nothing but a drain on the cultural, intellectual and political heritage of our country from you and your ilk.

It has been a long time since I have been subjected to such astonishing and malevolent stupidity from anyone.

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 20:59:12

Buffy of course we need essential workers they are contributing, we have unskilled worker here, how on earth did we manage prior to 2004? Oh yes the days when I could get a doctors appiontment! Are you a foreigner or a communist?

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 21:03:35

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Dolina are you for real? hmm

ravenAK Tue 20-May-14 21:05:03

'Would you believe I'm a qualified teacher lol? '

No, actually I wouldn't.

Buffy - yup. 'astonishing and malevolent stupidity' is exactly what this poster is bringing to the party.

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 21:16:02

RavenAK must suck I'm more educated than you I guess. Never thought it was a such a big deal before today. As I stated earlier my job is not teaching thankfully. I do not give a toss if you believe me or not. You lot are like a bunch of bullies with no mind of your own, I suppose being in the EU suit you lot, that's what they want people like you!

usuallysuspect Tue 20-May-14 21:16:25

Dolina is on a wind up, surely?

ravenAK Tue 20-May-14 21:26:47

'RavenAK must suck I'm more educated than you I guess'

Oh aye, I'm devastated grin.

But yes, we can certainly all be grateful you aren't teaching.

squizita Tue 20-May-14 21:35:25

She cannot be a teacher unless she is writing like that deliberately, as a wind up.
She would not pass the QTS literacy test.

RavenAK must suck I'm more educated than you I guess

Is it very wrong of me to just be finding this rather bizarre pastiche quite funny now?

dolina123 Tue 20-May-14 22:37:56

QTS is English. I do not live in England. I did a post graduate in teaching which means very basic literacy and numeracy. Sitting these exams is a doddle, I'm not sitting an exam today instead this evening Im chatting to liberal democratics voters on mum's net. I passed my driving test also and don't alway drive safely. A policeman once stopped my and told me my driving is appauling. That doesn't mean I haven't passed my test.Believe what you like.

KissesBreakingWave Tue 20-May-14 23:18:58

Interesting and amusing note: a few years ago, Farage was giving fringe meetings at Tory conferences about the threat of the turks coming over in massive numbers.

Who, like the Romanians and the Bulgarians, never showed up either.

He really doesn't give a shit who's actually coming (or the fact that population would go up if we came out of the EU as the whole of the Costa del Arsehole and Chiantishire and whichever bit of France we've colonised decamped back to blighty). He has no honest belief in what he's saying. So long as it sounds scary enough to turn out the chickenshit coward vote.

Also, and I've not checked this, just heard it from a friend a short while ago: YouGov polled the british public and discovered that as a nation we think the worst thing about the EU is all the immigration, but the best thing about it is the right to unrestricted travel.

There will come a Day when my BRILLIANT IDEA of forced labour camps for the stupid and wilfully ignorant will be recognised for the genius it is and the world will rejoice.

DenzelWashington Tue 20-May-14 23:21:59

As long as the camps are situated abroad, I'm with you all the way.

KissesBreakingWave Tue 20-May-14 23:24:25

I was thinking Scotland. /little englander

WetAugust Tue 20-May-14 23:27:33

.....and on that day Kisses, I expect you,ll be the first to be housed in your camp. Turkey is not an EU member so their citizens have no right to settle in the UK, which probably explains why they did't show up.

squizita Wed 21-May-14 08:20:57

The tests are UK wide and there are direct equivalents in NI. I know, I train, employ and monitor teachers and childcare employees for a living.
Why would you be commenting on UK residents and taxes if you weren't there at all?

The glib "I'm just chatting on a forum" attitude is not plausible either. The way you write is not indicative of someone who is highly literate and choosing to use web-chat or text-speak (or their local dialect). Loads of us do that, but it just doesn't sound the same.
The key element is the lack of structured thought in your posts; it is very, very hard to un-learn this and people who have either learned (or have natural gift-of-the-gab) sound coherent whether they use standard English, slang, text speak or whatever. You do not.
Your writing is indicative of someone approaching level 2 (as in, still at level 1 - a G-D at GCSE) functional skills: lacks clarity of thought and purpose, ideas are not always linked coherently.
To use the driving example: I don't always drive perfectly, but neither do I "bunny hop", stall, grind gears and make other errors a teenage learner would.

LadyWithLapdog Wed 21-May-14 08:24:13

Dolina - I'm actually quite pretty, if that info is of any use to you. I'm not looking for a fight, just pointing out your stupidity and lies. You're barely literate and so obviously not a teacher. 'Apauling', eh?

squizita Wed 21-May-14 08:28:05

Yes, the tests are very basic. Past/present tense, use of apostrophes, spotting and adding 's' to plurals. Really, really basic stuff. Even when people write 'LOLz' etc', they usually don't forget how to use tense and plurals, because those things are so very, very basic.

Let's look at how easy you find that:
"Sitting these exams is [should be were, past tense] a doddle, I'm not sitting an exam today [comma or semi colon required] instead this evening Im [apostrophe required] chatting to liberal democratics [no s required] voters on mum's net [1 word, no apostrophe]. I passed my driving test also [also should not be here] and don't alway [s required] drive safely. [Sentence is run on and too long].

There is no way this is just laziness. Unless you were drunk when you wrote it, you are lying or deluded about what your degree contained.

Who's Paul? Is he Romanian?

Oh, just noticed that dolina's post where she was nasty about me being a feminist has gone. I didn't report it, because I don't regard being called a lefty feminist as an insult at all confused. But thanks for having my back MNHQ flowers

KissesBreakingWave Wed 21-May-14 08:40:19

WetAugust, Turkey has been an associate member of the EU since 1963, and was officially recognised as a candidate for full membership in 1999. The full customs union has been in place for some years now, and all the various bits of membership are clicking in to place. Behind schedule, but still moving forward. Hence Farage harping on about the flood of Turks about to immigrate here. Anything to scare, really. He has no honest belief in the bullshit he's peddling.

SnowinBerlin Wed 21-May-14 08:42:35

You can call me a lefty feminist and I'm happy. Accuse me of being a cultural Marxist and I'll chuckle. Throw it at me I don't care.

But accuse me of being a Lib Dem and I'll be angry angry angry


LadyWithLapdog Wed 21-May-14 09:08:04

Someone else who doesn't want to be amongst the 'liberal democratics of mum's net'. I ask forgiveness for having once voted LD. The other options were even worse.

DeputyPecksBentBeak Wed 21-May-14 09:43:36

I've never given a second thought to where any of neighbours are from. Why on earth would I?

LadyWithLapdog Wed 21-May-14 09:56:25

We visited the area before buying, just to check out there weren't any unnecessary Union Jacks.

TooLongInTheBog Wed 21-May-14 10:31:40

* raises hand *

I'm forrin', and I must say communism is looking more and more appealing with each of dolina's posts I read.

<links arms with TooLong symbolically>

DenzelWashington Wed 21-May-14 15:17:47

What is so odd about all the political convulsions over the EU is that Thatcher heartily disliked and distrusted it, but handled it very well. All subsequent prime minister have liked it less but handled it very badly (except possibly Blair).

I was no fan of old Baroness T, but my goodness she gave good summit. Cameron is a lightweight out of his depth at any EU Heads of Govt meeting, and it really shows. I do wish our politicians would be cannier and more effective in Europe. UKIP, of course, have no intention of even trying to be either. The EU Parliament is a gravy train they will milk of everything they can, happily ineffective, mocked and sidelined with sly winks at their little coalition of the other nasty nationalists, while telling the voters at home they can't wait to get us out of the EU altogether.

KissesBreakingWave Wed 21-May-14 15:19:22

If there's one good thing to come out of UKIP, it's the number of new Reds they've created. It's like watching vegans change their minds about pesticides because they're in the middle of a cockroach infestation.

DenzelWashington Wed 21-May-14 15:21:37

Loving your work on this thread, Kisses, Costa del Arsehole especially. I've been there, visiting ILs. Sitting listening to all their drunken English friends complain Britain's gone to the dogs because of all the immigrants.

TheHammaconda Wed 21-May-14 16:45:28

I did have a good look around our new neighbourhood in Brussels to make sure there were no UKIP or BNP MEPs living nearby. Our Romanian neighbours are fantastic.

KissesBreakingWave Wed 21-May-14 18:42:53

Cameron out of his depth at a summit? That spoon-faced knob-walloper is out of his depth in wet fucking socks.

LadyWithLapdog Wed 21-May-14 21:22:18


Icimoi Thu 22-May-14 06:58:59

I tend to avoid listening to Farage as much as possible, his innate racism and dishonesty is so bad for my blood pressure. However, I heard part of an interview with him the other day where he was so bad it was laughable. The interviewer inconsiderately kept asking him about the local elections and it was blatant how desperate he was to avoid answering - he clearly has no interest in them whatsoever and hasn't bothered to do any homework. She then get on to UKIP policy on maternity and paternity rights and he simply brushed that aside as being in his view only relevant to the national election so he couldn't be expected to confirm or deny their views on this at all. I think we all worked out why he didn't want to answer that one.

The thought that anyone wants this total idiot to represent the UK in the EU Parliament is just mind-boggling.

DoctorTwo Thu 22-May-14 07:17:20

spoon-faced knob-walloper Personally, I've never seen a boiled ham that doesn't resemble our beloved democratically elected prime minister.

DenzelWashington Thu 22-May-14 11:57:36

I'm not sure Farage is a racist. Xenophobe, certainly, but not necessarily a racist. Though I do think he is perfectly prepaped to hint at being one for electoral advantage. Which is possibly even worse than being one.

Viviennemary Thu 22-May-14 12:02:29

If there was any kind of acceptable person to vote for then Nigel Farage wouldn't have much of a chance. But there is Clegg Cameron and Milliband all fighting each other for who is the most irritating. Let's hope somebody half decent comes along soon otherwise voting is a complete waste of time.

KissesBreakingWave Thu 22-May-14 17:06:39


Yeah, I'm briefly not busy.

'Cultural Marxism' - you know who coined that phrase? In the original german it was Kulturbolschewismus - literally, Cultural Bolshevism. Favoured of Joseph Goebbels.

I'd have some fucking respect for rightards if they'd come right out and be openly neonazi, but no, it's all buzzwords and dogwhistling and 'genuine concerns'. Where's your street-fighting, UKIP and BNP? Where're your brownshirts? Or is the lesson of Cable Street still a thing with you?

LadyWithLapdog Thu 22-May-14 20:32:00


AgaPanthers Thu 22-May-14 20:43:55

Ah, Godwin's Law.

The Nazis talked about Cultural Bolshevism.

That's quite close to Cultural Marxism. (But it isn't.)

Ergo anyone who talks about Cultural Marxism must be a Nazi.


SnowinBerlin Fri 23-May-14 00:03:44

Ergo anyone who talks about Cultural Marxism must be a Nazi.

Not necessarily Nazi but certainly playing with anti-semitic tropes.

AgaPanthers Fri 23-May-14 00:21:48

I call Bullshit Bingo.

And everything fully referenced to Wikipedia pages liberally daubed with 'This page is a lot of crap' tags.


MrsStatham Fri 23-May-14 00:36:34

UKIP appear to be doing very well if the early results are correct. Basildon, Hull and Doncaster so far.

MitziKinsky Fri 23-May-14 00:44:46

Romanians are the new Irish. Bizarrely my Irish FIL can't see this. confused

DogCalledRudis Sat 24-May-14 09:42:40

I am from Eastern Europe. To be honest, i'm not exactly keen on my compatriots in big crowds. Concerning next doors -- a family is allright. But if its shared housing -- i'd be pretty suspicious too. I lived in that sort of thing when i first arrived -- like 4 bedrooms, 3 people to a room. And of course young people love to party... Of course there will be noise and occasional fight.

LadyWithLapdog Sat 24-May-14 10:38:12

How is the noise and occasional fight worse because you don't understand the swear words? I lived in a shared house with students. I hated their stomping in the kitchen at 5 am when they came back all high from night clubs. They were white, English etc. I'm not inciting hate against all young, white, middle-class kids. Not even if they're drug users.

TucsonGirl Sat 24-May-14 11:30:05

If I was given the choice of living next door to some Romanian men or a German family, and was given no other information whatsoever. I would choose to live next door to the Germans. If that makes me racist, so be it. But I don't believe it does.

hackmum Sat 24-May-14 11:48:44

MitziKinsky: "Romanians are the new Irish. Bizarrely my Irish FIL can't see this."

I think that's true. When I was young (1970s) it was quite commonplace for people to talk about Irish people being lazy, stupid, workshy etc. And there was rampant xenophobia against Pakistani people who were supposedly living on benefits, having too many children and eating offensively smelly food. I know a lot of people think that we live in a less racist society now but it seems to me that all that happens is the target of people's vitriol changes - people who wouldn't dream of being rude about the Irish now attack the Romanians.

I also think that "Romanian" is code for "Roma" - people seem to confuse the two. Of course only a small proportion of Romanians are Roma.

LadyWithLapdog Sat 24-May-14 11:55:59

Well, TucsonGirl, you then are racist.

WetAugust Sat 24-May-14 12:24:48


It doesn't make you racist at all.

Some stupid people on here think that Romanians are a race apart, which they are not.

You are merely exercising your personal preference - something the thought police had trouble with

TitusFlavius Sat 24-May-14 12:42:54

WetAugust if your personal preference is to demonise an entire nation of people, then you have a problem. Naming this as a problem isn't "thought police", it's fact.

I'd have hated to have you as a neighbour I was a child, having things shouted at me in the street. I bet you miss the 70's.

WetAugust Sat 24-May-14 16:22:38

Well that is ironic isn't it as you're intent on demonising a good part of this nation for voting UKIP!

Just shows the fruitcakes are limited to UKIP.

TitusFlavius Sat 24-May-14 18:42:52

I don't think you understand how bigotry works, WetAugust. If you judge people badly by what they are - whether that is Romanians, Black people, Jewish people, whatever: that is bigotry.

I'm judging you on your political opinions - what you have chosen to believe. There is a whole qualititive difference between that and choosing to judge people by what they are.

ohmymimi Sat 24-May-14 19:03:05

Reading some of the comments from UKIP supporters on here really brings home to me how dangerous and insidious the UKIP project is. It, and its causes, have been seriously underestimated by the 'main' parties. But this is hardly surprising as they are all disgracefully out of touch with the day to day lives of their fellow county women/men.

Hissy Sat 24-May-14 19:17:27

My neighbours are Romanians.

They have offered to help in any way they can when my DS gets out of hospital. the bastards

I hate Farage, I hate UKIP, and anyone stupid enough to vote for them.

How dare he say this shit? He is a slug, but those who actually support him are worse, because they are stupid slugs.

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