Madeleine McCann investigation

(1000 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread.

lyndie Tue 06-May-14 18:49:55

I saw today that possible excavations are to start in the resort where MM went missing.

Does anyone think the progress The Met have made is astonishing given the length of time that has elapsed? I can't help but wonder what progress could have been made if they had been involved at the start.

I really hope that somehow they can find out what happened and give her family some sort of closure. I know the ins and outs of what happened and her parents leaving her have been discussed at length on MN but from a crime point of view I would be very interested to see if the Portugese police had done enough or not.

MrsMaturin Tue 06-May-14 18:50:42

I cannot understand why 'excavations' haven't been made before.

LineRunner Tue 06-May-14 18:51:27

Apparently (according the BBC) the Portuguese police will be in charge of any excavations and the Met will be observers.

I am baffled by all this.

lyndie Tue 06-May-14 18:54:40

So the Portugese police reopened the investigation then?

Onesleeptillwembley Tue 06-May-14 18:54:42

I haven't seen any progress. Just more theories bandied about.

MrsMaturin Tue 06-May-14 19:00:08

From what I've read it sounds like it will be a joint investigation but they won't be describing it as such hmm My personal feeling is that the Portugese police couldn't investigate their way out of a paper bag but then again Scotland Yard has found brown paper to be inpenetratable at times so who knows. It is a very difficult case.

lyndie Tue 06-May-14 19:03:30

I was under the impression they had done a fair bit with following up sightings on the night and ruling certain people out, and also looking at possible offenders who had been in the area at the time?

Sheldonswhiteboard Tue 06-May-14 19:03:35

I don't think they have made much progress though- there seems to be a steady stream of individuals that are now suspects, then they seem to go off the radar, how long have they been investigating and how much have they spent? I'm not saying the Portuguese have been much better but I'm not that impressed with the Met either.

lyndie Tue 06-May-14 19:12:17

Wikipedia says £4.7 million as of August last year which is a phenomenal amount.

Really? I really must pay more attention to the news blush

I am not sure what to hope for - that 'excavations' find something or not sad
That poor family. DS2 is the same age as MM and DH used to work with her dad.

EverythingCounts Tue 06-May-14 19:20:19

I haven't been following developments lately but what I have seen suggests that checks have been made now that really should have been made at time time, but which have thrown up some leads - though most notably to someone now dead. I hope the excavations do lead to a body as I really can't imagine she is still alive, sadly.

lyndie Tue 06-May-14 19:23:48

I worked with a cardiologist who was apparently one of his good friends. At the time they were encouraging people to take posters on holiday with them as they hoped to find her by keeping a high profile across Europe.

Enjoyingmycoffee1981 Tue 06-May-14 19:27:50

Oh please please please do not make this another thread full of speculation and Nancy Drew suppositions about something that must be so deeply and profoundly painful for the parents, that we couldn't possibly begin to grasp. Leave it alone.

JodieGarberJacob Tue 06-May-14 19:30:26

It's amazing that 7 years have passed it's still so fresh in my mind. I can't imagine what it's like for her family. I just hope and pray that if it turns out she is no longer alive that it was over quickly for her.

hackmum Tue 06-May-14 19:37:54

I agree with MrsMaturin. The ineptitude of the Portuguese police has been quite extraordinary. There were known paedophiles operating in the area and they didn't even bother investigating. They let the crime scene be contaminated, they didn't carry out a proper search of the area, etc etc etc.

Must be so heartbreaking for her parents to have to stand by while they watch the Portuguese police making a complete hash of it.

SpottieDottie Tue 06-May-14 19:45:00

Me too Sparkling and like others have said, it's hard to know what to feel just as an outsider, it must be so hard for her parents.

They are all I think of when I read anything about this now Spottie. Seven years with no answers. Just unimaginable.

EffectiveCommunication Tue 06-May-14 19:48:31

I hope they find answers, it must have been a living nightmare all these years not knowing.

SpottieDottie Tue 06-May-14 19:53:54

It must be unbearable, I mean to lose a child in any circumstances is terrible (been there, done that) but to not know what happened. I don't know how they can cope with it. I hope they don't find her body, that would be terrible if they could have at least found out years ago and not had to deal with it for so long. It's hard to put into words.

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 19:58:52

The Portuguese police did not make a hash of it - they were unable to proceed without the co-operation of the McCanns and their friends (doing a reconstruction/answering police questions) please do a bit of research before denigrating a whole country and their law enforcement

MrsMaturin Tue 06-May-14 20:02:00

Did the Portugese police plan to conduct excavations near by or to follow up reported similar cases? My understanding is they did neither and anybody with any common sense (let alone Nancy Drew tendancies) would suggest that both might be useful steps when a young child vanishes.

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 20:11:49

It's strange that all these other supposed cases of intruders are completely unknown to both local residents and the local police - and why only British families, no Dutch, Portuguese, German, Spanish? Really strange that I have lived here 11 years, actually in one of the towns mentioned, work in the tourist industry - and have never heard of even one case

The Portuguese investigation is all available to read online - and in English

lyndie Tue 06-May-14 20:12:07

I didn't know know that Costa, could you share what have you read?

I thought it was fairly well established that mistakes we're made on the night, such as not sealing the resort, contaminating the evidence in the flat etc.

HoldOnHoldOnSoldier Tue 06-May-14 20:14:53

Costacoffeeplease I'm so glad someone else has said this.

The pj files are online and free to read, If people did read them there eyes would be very much opened to the case.

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 20:17:50

It is not possible to seal the resort - it is blocks of apartments in the centre of a village, not a closed, gated resort - I know the area well. A police investigation is never going to be 100% perfect - Tia Sharp for example - but I am so fed up of hearing the Portuguese people and police rubbished the way they are in the UK media - they do not deserve it

I am not going to go into detail of everything that happened, although I saw a lot of it at fairly close quarters, but there are plenty of resources online for anyone who wants to do some research, and I understand that mumsnet hq are very twitchy about this subject and do not encourage discussion, even of the facts of the case

MNHQ are quite rightly 'twitchy'. MM threads generally turn into bunfights.

EffectiveCommunication Tue 06-May-14 20:21:28

We don't need to investigate this, it is nothing to do with us. I hope they find answers soon, not good for two little children growing up with this hanging over them, and their parents.

They seem to have come up with quite a few leads that have come to nothing.
I hope this one does - I know it's awful but surely there's no chance she's still alive. Assuming she isn't please let them find she died quickly and painlessly so her poor family can know the details.

lyndie Tue 06-May-14 20:28:30

Well I think it's good if someone can point out errors that the British media have made or insinuated that others have made, I can only read what the British press print after all. I didn't know about the PJ files but have just had a quick skim-read of them and they obviously head down a different track in terms of the investigation.

MamaMary Tue 06-May-14 20:30:46

The British media has been very circumspect on many aspects of this case, for a variety of reasons.

I too hope that this lead actually comes to something and the family can at last have some peace.

TheFairyCaravan Tue 06-May-14 20:36:18

IIRC there was a lot of work going on in Praia da Luz when MM went missing. I don't understand why it wasn't all checked at the time.

We went to the Algarve that year. In practically every shop, bar and restaurant there was a poster with MM's face on it. It is so sad that she is still missing and her parents have no answers.

PortofinoRevisited Tue 06-May-14 20:36:23

Costa, not sure what good a reconstruction would have done. They have all answered police questions as to timings and whereabouts.

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 20:38:58

A reconstruction would have been vital - there's a fair amount of confusion surrounding the timeline for that evening, starting around 5.30/6pm but the McCanns friends didn't think it necessary and refused to return to Luz

TheFairyCaravan Tue 06-May-14 20:42:03

Alerting the ports and airports and closing the borders would have been vital, but AFAIK that wasn't done.

MrsMaturin Tue 06-May-14 20:42:46

Would you want to prance about re-enacting some of the most traumatic hours of your life at the behest of a police force you had no confidence in? I certainly wouldn't.

PortofinoRevisited Tue 06-May-14 20:43:48

Aah you are one of the conspiracy theorists then Costa?

MrsMaturin Tue 06-May-14 20:49:15

By her directing us to the (totally bonkers and prejudiced) online 'files' I think she nailed her colours pretty well to the mast on that one yes Portofino.

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 20:53:02

You see this is exactly why discussion of this subject is not encouraged - it seems that mumsnetters are unable to be sensible and rational. No conspiracy theories here - I would, however, like people to be more knowledgable about the facts before making sweeping statements

Do you have any idea of the length of the Spanish/Portuguese border and the fact that it is not manned even at the main entry/exit points

Were airports and ports alerted and borders closed when Tia Sharp, poor little Mikaeel, Shannon Matthews etc were reported missing?

If my friend's 3 year old was missing I would do everything in my power to help - wouldn't anyone?

The initial theory was 'woke and wandered' as there was no sign of a break in or an abductor - but this is all in the files

clam Tue 06-May-14 20:56:19

They knew very early on in Shannon and Tia's cases (not sure about Milaeel) that there was family involved. Contrary to all the nonsense spouted about the McCanns, it was quite clear to most right-minded people that they had nothing to do with her disappearance.

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 20:56:50

Totally bonkers and prejudiced files - really?

The files detail the PJ investigation - under Portuguese law the files are released by the PJ on official CDs available from the courthouse.

The PJ are not 'plod' they don't deal with traffic offences - to be a PJ officer you need to have a law degree, they are specialist police who deal with serious crimes - to see them dismissed as bonkers and prejudiced is just unbelievable

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 20:57:48

I don't believe they did know early on with either Tia or Shannon, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one

TheFairyCaravan Tue 06-May-14 21:04:28

Yes, Costa I do know the length of the Spanish/Portuguese border. They could have had police where the majority of people cross the border, on the main road bit, but they never.

In the UK I do believe they alert the ports and airports very early on when a child goes missing.

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 21:10:11

So if you're going to cross the border with an abducted child you're going to do it at the busiest point rather than in a remote mountain area - of which there are many

Anyway, Jane Tanner's now discredited sighting was of a man walking away - no car in sight or hearing

PortofinoRevisited Tue 06-May-14 21:18:35

I am sensible and rational and have visited some of those "online" things. It is fucking mad some of the things they are proposing. I have NO idea what happened but believe that direction to this sort of stuff just gets the thread deleted/attracts the attention of strange people.

PortofinoRevisited Tue 06-May-14 21:20:33

Maybe not "early on" with Tia and Shannon but I think they did suspect.

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 21:20:43

I have directed people to the PJ files online - nowhere else

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 21:23:39

I have directed people to the official PJ files online - nowhere else

lyndie Tue 06-May-14 21:25:06

So if the timeline is wrong how does that affect things?

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 21:25:57

Whenever they suspected - there was no immediate closure of borders, ports or airports

PortofinoRevisited Tue 06-May-14 21:28:12

So not so professional then. Which is it?

HavannaSlife Tue 06-May-14 21:28:19

The last MM threads started were ridiculous, full of conspiracies, rubbish about time lines and the women staying above the mccanns. Even when people pointed out that hotel managment, other guests and friends all agreed what time they raised the alarm to staff posters were having non of it.

Unfortunately it always goes the same way, I hope yhey find her so they can have some kond of closure.

Oh and who can blame any of thrm for not going back to re enact ot all, when it looked very much like the police had already made up their minds what happened

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 21:29:16

I'm sorry lyndie I'm not going to answer that here but I think in general reconstructions are extremely useful to police forces to establish exactly where witnesses were and when, and what they could or could not have done/seen/heard - it is possible to get confused in an initial panic situation, but a reconstruction can clarify things

PortofinoRevisited Tue 06-May-14 21:32:43

Do you not think that they would have done anything that they thought was useful?

lyndie Tue 06-May-14 21:33:13

Fair enough Costa, I have seen MM threads before but they were more about the McCanns leaving them more than anything else. I did do a search before starting this thread but there was nothing recent.

Obviously the main thing is to find out what happened and then people can try to understand it more, whatever happened and reflect and learn any lessons from the investigation.

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 21:34:42

If you mean the McCanns' friends - all I know is that they refused to return for the reconstruction

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 21:37:34

Yes lyndie hopefully there will be some resolution at some point

If anyone wants to pm any questions - that's fine, I'll answer to the best of my knowledge and keep it off the board

Any abuse will be ignored and/or reported so there's really no point

Oh for God's sake.

The McCanns repeatedly asked for a reconstruction while they were out there and the Portuguese police repeatedly refused. Later, after all the leaks from the Police to the Portuguese media, after KM had been made a suspect, after further off the record briefings speculating about another member of the party, they asked if everyone would return to Spain for a reconstruction. They smelt a giant rat and said no.

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 21:56:27

Spain?

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 21:59:25

The McCanns wanted a very different type of reconstruction - at the point when the investigation felt it necessary to carry out a proper police reconstruction, their friends refused. The McCanns as arguidos by that point, would not have had a choice in whether to attend, so we're unable to refuse

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 21:59:47

Were not we're!

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 22:05:38

How is a reconstruction 'smelling a rat'? The police couldn't force you to say you were somewhere you weren't, at a different time, wearing different clothes. You re-enact your own movements, and any discrepancies in the original statements can be sorted out - why would it not be helpful, or what would there be to be scared of?

clam Tue 06-May-14 22:32:47

They should never have been made arguidos in the first place.

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 22:37:52

Really? Thank you for that very useful contribution

noddyholder Tue 06-May-14 22:44:33

No one who abducted a child would return to the scene and bury it especially when the resort was over run with police and media. There was a tiny window of opportunity for abduction and to leave the apartment and bury the child all within about an hour is unlikely. If you read the original reports they brought in dogs before from the UK and they did alert but the mccanns said they were unreliable and the policeman who wanted to dig that grassland was sacked. All of this up is documented in the Kate McCann book. She absolutely ruled out madeleines wandering out on her own as the window was open her toy was on a high shelf and it had been in the bed and the patio doors were too heavy to open.

noddyholder Tue 06-May-14 22:49:39

No abductor would return to a resort teeming with media and police to bury a child they had abducted. The Portuguese did use dogs originally and wanted to dig that grassland but the mccanns said the dogs were unreliable . I read Kate's book and she 100% ruled out that Madeleine could have wandered as the window and shutters were up and her toy was placed on a high shelf and it had been in the bed as normal when they went out. This is the most significant development though in years so hopeful it may give some answers

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 22:49:52

There was no high shelf in the bedroom

noddyholder Tue 06-May-14 22:54:26

I know

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 22:55:33

Ok, in your post it sounded as though you believed there was, sorry

noddyholder Tue 06-May-14 22:58:13

No I am just recounting what it says in the book. I think it was implied whoever took her put the toy up high and Madeleine could never have done that. Plus the shutter up etc I have read the files and Kate's book and know someone who worked on this case originally so have always followed it.

MrRedAndBlue Tue 06-May-14 22:58:27

anyone who is interested in this case should read the police files that are freely available online - read the actual witness statements and details of the huge amount of investigative work carried out by the PJ. Do that, and then make up your own mind - don't rely on the British media to tell you anything.

noddyholder Tue 06-May-14 23:03:13

The files have all the interviews in detail and are v interesting. It shows the depth of the work done there and the reasons it stalled as it did. I feel for the Portuguese and how they were ridiculed The first police to suggest dogs and anything other than abduction were from the UK

EffectiveCommunication Tue 06-May-14 23:05:17

When were the English police brought in with dogs, then Noddyholder?

noddyholder Tue 06-May-14 23:09:00

About 2 months into the investigation UK dogs were brought over and they did alert in several places. The handler Martin grimes is world renowned afaik

MrRedAndBlue Tue 06-May-14 23:09:03

the British dogs were brought in with their British handler Martin Grime at the suggestion of British Police National Search Adviser Mark Harrison MBE and closely followed a report written by British criminal profiler Lee Rainbow.

MrRedAndBlue Tue 06-May-14 23:11:31

Mark Harrison's analysis can be read here

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

noddyholder Tue 06-May-14 23:12:58

The mccanns said they were unreliable and that there were explanations for the alerts iirc from the book.

MrRedAndBlue Tue 06-May-14 23:20:09

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

noddyholder Tue 06-May-14 23:23:13

We'll it looks like both forces are going down the same road now as there has never really been any concrete evidence she was abducted hopefully together they will solve it

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 23:23:32

I know I wouldn't get on a plane if a sniffer dog had alerted to there being a bomb on board

noddyholder Tue 06-May-14 23:27:05

God no and if one alerted in an apartment where my baby had been taken I would be distraught and want answers

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 23:27:20

It looks as though cadaver dogs are being brought in to Luz again, as well as ground penetrating radar, I would guess this will be before any actual digging takes place

Costacoffeeplease Tue 06-May-14 23:28:48

Absolutely noddy I wouldn't dismiss them as unreliable, I'd want to know what the alerts meant

noddyholder Tue 06-May-14 23:34:22

I don't understand why the UK didn't support this theory at the start All these years looking all over the world and they are going back to the conclusion the PJ came to in 2007. They were never looking at abduction after the British dogs were brought in.

Does anyone think the progress The Met have made is astonishing

They haven't made any.

Not sure how astonishing that is.

noddyholder Tue 06-May-14 23:53:53

I think they are following the Portuguese lead more than they let on.

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Wed 07-May-14 00:03:07

Absolutely noddy I wouldn't dismiss them as unreliable, I'd want to know what the alerts meant

A point the Portuguese police quite possibly failed to do. Unless they have evidence that is neither in the files or in Amaral's book.

noddyholder Wed 07-May-14 07:19:41

They did know what they meant. They said the dogs weren't reliable and they had had dirty nappies and rotting meat which may have caused the alerts. From day one abduction was the only possibility they would consider.

noddyholder Wed 07-May-14 07:28:46

Reading the files again it is a shame the phone evidence was in admissible

lyndie Wed 07-May-14 08:13:19

I don't understand why they weren't digging before then, and the Portugese police closed the investigation? If their evidence is good?

I also couldn't understand if there was a site relatively nearby that it wouldn't have been searched at the time?

Costacoffeeplease Wed 07-May-14 08:20:10

There is information on the searches that were done and the roadworks in the files

Newspapers are reporting that at some point in the last 7 years, information has been received that has led them to these dogs now - so that information may not have been available then

The investigation was shelved (not closed) basically because the police wanted a reconstruction, the McCanns friends refused to do it, and the Portuguese felt that without it they had nowhere else to go - that's the gist anyway

Costacoffeeplease Wed 07-May-14 08:21:14

Digs now not dogs - although it seems cadaver dogs are being brought in again

noddyholder Wed 07-May-14 08:22:15

The abduction theory was the only one really considered. If you read Kate mccanns book she says the way she found the room proved to her Madeleine had been taken as the shutters and window were open and they were very heavy. This is why woke up and wandered off was something they said couldn't have happened. If she did wander off who opened the window and how did she climb out? They were more concerned about borders and trafficking than the immediate vicinity at that time.

HoldOnHoldOnSoldier Wed 07-May-14 08:23:26

The whole thing has been a farce from the beginning.

It was the parents being un cooperative with the Portuguese police not the other way round.

noddyholder Wed 07-May-14 08:24:49
noddyholder Wed 07-May-14 09:00:53

Former policeman on news saying as it would be extremely hard ground it would not be possible to dig it at short notice so likely looking for something from before May 3rd. After that the town was swarming with people so wouldn't have been possible I hope this latest push solves this for all concerned

Despite what some people may have picked up from watching TV thrillers we don't close ports in the UK every time someone goes missing.

But there's a more fundamental flaw here. People talk as though getting across the border means you have escaped and can never be found. While on the other hand if you can't make it then you will inevitably be caught.

I assume this is based on a confused idea of the size of a country and perhaps the idea that outside it is a wilderness filled with foreign people.

noddyholder Wed 07-May-14 09:51:07

The current status certainly looks most likely to produce something as the fact that she was never seen anywhere and it has been in the media non stop does indicate something closer to where she was last seen

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Thu 08-May-14 08:37:18

Costa and Noddy well said, and thank you for the information, which I have now read - very interesting, as previously I only 'knew' what Sky News and the media reported blush. It is worth re-stating for any newcomers to the thread that the facts of the investigation are available in official files online for anyone to read if they are interested. I would recommend that anyone with a contribution, particularly relating to the reliability of sniffer dogs, reads those first.

Costacoffeeplease Thu 08-May-14 08:56:44

You're welcome, TheLateMrsLizCromwell thank you for taking the time to read and respond

I read all the pj files when the last threads were on (they were in chat, they werent all, anyway deleted). The whole reason there were threads then was that someone had be proven to have lied about something? (I've forgotten who and what, doh)

Noddy, do you have news links to suggest uk are following pj original idea? I havent seen anything?

MamaMary Thu 08-May-14 21:27:46

The whole reason the last threads were started was because the Sunday Times reported that the McCanns had tried to suppress important evidence. I can't remember exactly what it was blush Perhaps someone does

noddyholder Thu 08-May-14 21:30:46

The guardian reported a few weeks ago that SY were now considering she may not have left the apartment alive. It was taken off net after a few days.

Nerf Thu 08-May-14 21:37:24

It was the crime watch reconstruction featuring a picture (drawing) of a suspect seen some way from the apartments heading to the water front.

MamaMary Thu 08-May-14 21:39:17

Found it:

'Madeleine clues hidden for 5 years'
The McCanns' team of hand-picked investigators (former MI5 spies) produced 2 E-fits of suspects. When they handed their findings to the McCanns, the McCanns used their lawyers to ensure that this evidence would not become public. This was in 2008. The E-fit was not re-produced in Kate's book.

In October 2013, a Crimewatch programme claimed the evidence was 'a new lead'. It wasn't.

What are the correct files to read? There's so much online that I don't know where to look for facts rather than opinions.

I just wish there was no more speculation about this until there was a convincing resolution - each and every outcome I can think of is horrid sad

ILickPicnMix Thu 08-May-14 21:47:09

What did the parents have to gain from hiding the efits?

noddyholder Thu 08-May-14 21:50:12

I think SY probably considered it new as in new to them. I think it was concealed because the family who saw this person and helped with the e fit thought the person they saw was GMcCann so that would have derailed the search for her

Deux Thu 08-May-14 21:50:31

I haven't really followed this case in detail but read this thread earlier, prompting me to have a scour throw the PJ Files. Well, it wasn't what I was expecting.

And then these last couple of posts, i had a quick google. Well I never.

Am quite shocked really, the bit about evidence being surpressed for 5 years. If true, good grief, why?

I'm flabbergasted and for me I feel like I'm looking through a whole new lens.

MamaMary Thu 08-May-14 21:55:13

Here is a link to the story (not DM) *ILickPicMix'

The efit looks a lot like Gerry and the family that saw the man thought it was Gerry. So the Mccanns went with their friend Jane's efit

Costacoffeeplease Thu 08-May-14 21:55:54

Well for us in Portugal the last 7 years have been like living in a parallel universe - this is why we get so annoyed when people make statements when they have obviously not read any of the PJ files - just what the UK media spoon feeds them - and we're dismissed as 'nutters' 'conspiracy theorists' and worse

Costacoffeeplease Thu 08-May-14 21:56:58

And Jane's sighting has now very much been discredited and discarded by SY

NitramAtTheKrap Thu 08-May-14 21:59:23

Having read the PJ files when the last threads about this were up, I just can't get beyond the dogs. English dogs, English handlers, so no blaming the Portuguese 'incompetence' as the press have.

Top in their field, exceptionally accurate , never wrong dogs. Who found signs. I don't know how you explain that away.

MamaMary Thu 08-May-14 21:59:30

noddyholder interesting that that Guardian article was published, then removed from the web.

noddyholder Thu 08-May-14 21:59:41

I noticed last night when the news was talking about the site Kate McCann wanted dug in 2007 try showed Portuguese police going over it in detail on horseback. Their investigation was v thorough it's just the conclusion didn't suit

MamaMary Thu 08-May-14 22:01:10

Costa we can't help but read the British press when we're in Britain. I accept that it is very one-sided, but the McCanns are very quick to sue for libel. I don't blame the media.

Costacoffeeplease Thu 08-May-14 22:06:55

I'm afraid I do blame the press, yes the McCanns lawyered up very quickly, with specialists both in libel and extradition, but the media don't have to always dance to the McCanns tune, they could be a lot more even-handed - how many times have we seen 'sardine-munching, boozy, bungling Portuguese cops'? absolutely despicable

Of course uk residents read uk press, but google is your friend

What i dont understand (with the dogs) is why you would want to explain it away? Surely you accept it and think of scenarios that fit the evidence, rather than say its all crap and give excuses as to what it could be.

noddyholder Thu 08-May-14 22:11:37

The mccanns do sue and win though so you can't blame them but I do think they should have more respect for the Portuguese investigation it was thorough and I think they were right in all they did. It has always been a bit odd the way they are protected compared to others.

And everyone must remember that mn have been sued for libel before, hence their shit-hot-ness on the subject grin

noddyholder Thu 08-May-14 22:13:11

I think if the uk brought dogs in and they found traces I would have fallen apart at that point rather than ridicule them. Although try did have explanations for the findings

NitramAtTheKrap Thu 08-May-14 22:13:48

Beyond yes, exactly that. If it was me I would be thinking of scenarios to fit the facts, rather than dismissing them.

Dont forget trace evidence was sent to uk labs for analysis and they fucked it up, and lost the only possible dna evidence there was!

NitramAtTheKrap Thu 08-May-14 22:15:53

noddy exactly

noddyholder Thu 08-May-14 22:20:58

They surely have 'connections' otherwise this would have been concluded in Portugal years ago

Burmahere Thu 08-May-14 22:48:14

I can't believe it's 7 years..

Watched the BBC interview on News 24 a couple of days ago to mark the anniversary and you wouldn't wish what they are going through on anyone. When KM said that M would be starting secondary school urgh just awful.

Costacoffeeplease Thu 08-May-14 22:58:33

Yes, poor Madeleine, so often forgotten - her parents never even talk to her when given the opportunity

Joules68 Thu 08-May-14 23:00:04

What do you mean?

MrsMaturin Thu 08-May-14 23:01:57

hmm

HavannaSlife Thu 08-May-14 23:03:43

What a daft comment

clam Thu 08-May-14 23:08:59

costa that's not true. I've often seen them asked what they would say to Madeleine if she was watching and they always answer. Kate did it just the other day, turned to camera and said something along the lines of "Madeleine, we love you and we're waiting for you."

noddyholder Thu 08-May-14 23:12:04

I just hope it reaches some conclusion this time as 7 years is so long and they seem to be going back to the original scenario from what I can see and that must be hugely frustrating for all concerned.

Costacoffeeplease Thu 08-May-14 23:17:27

That's not what happened in the Fiona Bruce interview last week

MrsMaturin Thu 08-May-14 23:23:15

Costa - I've got to say and with all due reflection - your posts on this thread are really not very pleasant.

PortofinoRevisited Thu 08-May-14 23:24:41

Maybe they have even come to terms with the idea that she is dead. Which IS the most likely scenario.

PortofinoRevisited Thu 08-May-14 23:27:04

Especially when they announce on the BBC that special equipment and cadaver dogs will be sent in.

Costacoffeeplease Thu 08-May-14 23:29:47

Then please feel free to ignore me MrsMaturin

noddyholder Thu 08-May-14 23:31:35

Costa I get what you are saying. I am not going to post further ATM as I don't want to get into it here but I support the Portuguese position on this and think they have been treated shoddily by UK media

noddyholder Thu 08-May-14 23:33:04

I will just say though that I think the statements from the Gaspars are at the heart of this IMHO

Costacoffeeplease Thu 08-May-14 23:36:55

Thank you noddy goodnight

PortofinoRevisited Thu 08-May-14 23:44:37

Yes some kind of dodgy swinging/peodophile ring. Do you think the authorities would not have investigated this?

Scousadelic Fri 09-May-14 00:07:16

I'm with Costa and noddy on this. We visit Portugal once or twice every year and it is shameful how the country and the police have been portrayed by the British media. They investigated as thoroughly as possible, faced with lack of co-operation, visitors coming and going to all over the world and all sorts of difficulties, yet have been maligned horribly. I'm afraid I take a lot I see in the British media with a pinch of salt.

I can also agree with Costas point that the resort could not be sealed off. We have stayed there and The Ocean Club is indeed just apartment blocks in Praia da Luz, not gated or enclosable in any way

Deux Fri 09-May-14 00:16:13

Holy cow, I've just googled Gaspars statements.

That and other stuff I've read today.

And all the legal activity, cease and desist, the US criminal profiler Pat Brown, question mark over Jane Tanner's evidence, Mccanns 'suppressing' evidence about the second sighting which changed the time line when it seemed that this was evidence uncovered by SY.

Excellent media spin.

Makes me think that the Portugese aren't the hapless incompetents the media would have us beleive.

backstabtastic Fri 09-May-14 00:26:01

I am amazed that the met found evidence of 3 people in the resort at the time and then the communication between them afterwards. I think they are onto whoever took her. As for digging up around the hotel. I don't hold much hope up for that.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 06:24:02

It's not a hotel

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 06:25:20

Makes me think that the Portugese aren't the hapless incompetents the media would have us beleive.

Thank you

Nerf Fri 09-May-14 06:29:48

Costa, don't want to get into how she may have disappeared, but if you live in Portugal? What is happening that's new at your end? Do people feel like there may be a resolution, or she may be found? Thanks.

wannaBe Fri 09-May-14 06:33:57

Everything about this has always been odd. The levels of publicity, covering up of information, the way the Portuguese were portrayed.

I haven't read the online documents, but I wouldn't be surprised if arrests happen in the uk iyswim.

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 07:21:46

This is an odd situation. So much obfuscation by the parents, who then jet the world claiming to wan the mystery solved. The fund which has paid their mortgage and wasn't advertised clearly as not being a charity. All this money and resources thrown at nothing, whilst the parents and friends have not given consistent (if any) answers. What is the real backstory here?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 07:25:11

Nerf most Portuguese are just very tired of the whole thing - people took time off work unpaid to search for Madeleine and not only did they not get any thanks - the McCanns constantly put Portugal down and just in the last few days there have been people on twitter, with large numbers of followers, calling for a boycott of Portugal.

Most people feel sad and very hurt, the Portuguese people are very proud, very family and child orientated, and they feel betrayed.

I hope these latest developments bring resolution, but I don't know if too much time has passed, I hope not

Nerf Fri 09-May-14 07:26:07

Thanks Coffee. It must be hard feeling got at for not doing enough.

lyndie Fri 09-May-14 07:30:28

All adds another terrifying dimension it. I still couldn't understand the motive for it? And what the role of the British press has been?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 07:31:24

Yes - when so much was done - Portugal is still a poor country, salaries are low (500€/month) but people still went out day after day, searching

Portugal didn't ask for this, it was visited upon them, and they got caught up in this whirlwind of media manipulation, leaks, suspicion - I would say they just want the truth with no 'spin' and for it all to go away

Nerf Fri 09-May-14 07:49:21

It's so bizarre the reporting. The first I heard was something like six am headlines on radio four with John hunphreys making brief mention of reports of a little girl going missing in Portugal. So must have made uk aware very quickly.

christinarossetti Fri 09-May-14 07:58:26

Sorry, Costa, who's using Twitter to try to rally interest in boycotting Portugal and what reason are they giving?

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 07:58:58

One of their party rung sky news as the police were being rung, if not slightly before (their stories/timing differ on this as well).

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 08:00:32

I don't think I should say here but a UK businesswoman was one

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 08:02:12

Sorry posted too soon - something like Portugal doesn't value British tourists - laughable really, but that's not the point

Nerf Fri 09-May-14 08:08:33

Blimey. And blimey again.

wannaBe Fri 09-May-14 08:09:53

there was a thread on mn recently about boycotting Portugal iirc.

Interestingly the family have gone very quiet since SY took over the investigation - esp since there's been talk of excavations in Portugal. Perhaps because if she is e.g. found there then the abduction theory will be completely discredited and it was the only theory they were prepared to pursue - even make money from in terms of KM's book. If it transpires that she wandered then public opinion will likely turn, and for someone so in the public eye that will be catastrophic.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 08:18:18

According to Kate's book she didn't wander it is not even a remote possibility And she was insulted that the Portuguese police even suggested it as thenwaynshe found the room showed 100% she was abducted. Window and shutters open which were very heavy and the patio doors closed as well as the gate outside. No child of her age and size would be so careful if they were wandering out in the dark.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 08:30:23

I think it's unlikely she wandered - there was a stairgate at the top of the external stairs leading down from the balcony outside the living room and IIRC it was closed, then there was a gate onto the pavement, also closed

Luz is a small fairly quiet town, especially at this time of year, the McCanns and their friends stated that they didn't see anyone when doing their checks on the children - one even said she wanted her husband to do the checks as it was dark, quiet and creepy with no-one around - so for a 3 year old to manage to get herself out of the apartment, in a very quiet part of town, and to then have an opportunistic paedophile pass at the same time before someone who would have helped her, all seems very far fetched to me

I really dont understand the majority of mn's view on this one. Absolutlely everyone i know in real life shares the same opinion i do, that the pj files version of events sounds most likely (hope that doenst count as speculation as it is based on evidence). Not saying that it did happen that way, but i dont understand why people are more comfortable with the idea of an unknown paedo sneaking in and stealing a child for a sex ring, than there being some sort of accident. A covered up accident doesnt put my children at risk on holiday. An accident doesnt potentially mean a little girl has been sold into the sex trade and could be still alive, but after god knows what she would have lived through. That is what keeps bringing me to these threads.

MamaMary Fri 09-May-14 09:40:02

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Deux Fri 09-May-14 09:42:28

Have the other members of the Tapas 9 been questioned under caution, or anything like that?

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 09:46:07

The other friends were re interviewed in the UK but inky after they had all met in a hotel to discuss their previous statements. I have never heard of this.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 09:46:34

Only not inky

Deux Fri 09-May-14 09:47:35

Sorry, another question. Why was the dogs 'evidence' discredited? From what i read, their strike rate is v high and they are in high demand around the world.

Is it possible they could detect death on KM from her work? Does it mean the clothes she wore on holiday were the same ones she wore when she was tending patients ir is it by transfer? I guess what I'm asking is, what is the science view on this?

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 09:49:55

Between the girl going missing and the police arriving they all got the timings of their checks written down ready for the police this included jane tanners sighting of a man carrying a child. But in her statement she said she didn't tell them about the man until the next day. I think these sort if anomalies should have been ironed out at the time.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 09:50:58

At least one of each couple were doctors - no alerts were made in the other apartments

If cadaver scent could be transferred easily then surely all the clothes in the suitcase would have provided alerts, not just one or two

The dogs in question had 100% success rate and were insured for millions

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 09:51:32

Yes the dogs alerted to km trousers which she said was because she attended 6 deaths at work in the weeks preceding her holiday

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 09:51:53

There were two slightly different timelines prepared IIRC

Deux Fri 09-May-14 09:57:21

why were the McCanns not charged with neglect or some such? Or even prosecuted in the UK?

Was that ever considered or was it a hot potato?

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 09:58:05

Deux I personally think the dogs evidence was ignored (I can't say anyone managed to discredit it) and kept quiet because it didn't fit in with the McCanns version (whichever version they were on then) of events they wanted to convey.

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 10:00:41

Deux - to your second question, god knows. Maybe the same reasons they've never been properly investigated, or been given unbiased media coverage. As I said upthread, apart (obviously) from a poor little girl missing, what is the real story here?

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 10:08:22

Are they in Portugal now?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 10:30:32

I don't think they could be prosecuted in the UK for something that happened here

There were two issues with the neglect - 1, they've suffered enough what would be the point? 2, Portuguese law can be interpreted as knowingly putting a child in danger by abandonment - was leaving them in an unlocked apt knowingly leaving them at risk? Some would say yes, some no, but once they had left Portugal it would have been a difficult and lengthy process to force them to return, and I'm not sure the penalty if found guilty was sufficient to warrant it - this all IMHO - I am not a lawyer or any sort of expert, it's just what I can recall

I don't think the McCanns are here at the moment

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 10:32:40

According to twitter the portuguese are about to completely discard the abduction theory???

I cannot state my opinion on here, and I won't.
All I hope for is that answers are discovered and we all finally find out what happened to this poor little girl. To close a book on a chapter that has been open for far too long.

For the twins & other family members to have some closure whether good or bad. To be left wondering whether she is dead or alive must be gut wrenching for themsad

I question that too Deux?
I do wonder if they were of lower class, whether prosecution would have taken place???

A single mother or a working class couple I guess wouldn't have escaped so easily from charges of neglect

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 10:50:13

For me, one of the most shocking things in the beginning was the way Gerry casually compared it to dining in your back garden, and dismissed it as within the bounds of normal parenting? And also saying it was a British thing to have couple time once the kids were in bed - I was never left alone as a child (3 kids under 4 remember and even younger babies in the group) and I don't know anyone who was

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 10:51:41

Costa - what's happening with the Amaral trial? It's all gone even quieter than before. Seems like they're holding off for something......

aprilanne Fri 09-May-14 10:55:57

i am sorry .i feel sorry for the little girl herself .but she went missing through her parents neglect .and they have never admitted any sort of admission on that part and this text alert thing .it is a good idea because children can dart off in shopping centres and such like in minutes .but they left them .in an unlocked apartment to go for dinner .and there were child care services available .i agree if it was a working class couple and it was a british holiday camp .the social work would have been involved .just because they are middle class it was still gross neglect

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 11:00:15

The libel trial is ongoing - the last I heard they were waiting for documentation from the UK regarding Madeleine being a ward of court (action which the McCanns took in 2008 IIRC) once her legal status has been defined hopefully the trial will come to a conclusion

Deux Fri 09-May-14 11:02:40

The reason I wondered about a UK prosecution for a crime committed in another country is the case of the Scotsman who murdered his first wife in Scotland. He then attempted to murder his second wife in New Zealand whilst a resident in NZ.

He was charged with and prosecuted for the NZ attempted murder in Scotland. It was something to do with him owning UK assets at the time of the crime in NZ. It just stuck in my mind as I hadn't realised such a thing could happen. But maybe it's something to do with Scots Law.

Deux Fri 09-May-14 11:05:13

I agree with the comments about the socio econimic status of those involved.

The articulate, educated and connected can more easily access the breadth andndepth of professionals to help them.

christinarossetti Fri 09-May-14 11:14:53

Completely agree april its gross neglect no matter which way we look at itsad

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 11:17:00

I think it's also to do with the seriousness of the crime Deux

I've just seen it on twitter too noddy interesting

Housemum Fri 09-May-14 11:17:19

Dogs detecting death because of 6 patients she had seen in the preceding weeks - didn't they own a washing machine? Personally, I don't wear my work skirts on holiday, and even if I was taking them to be smart, I'd have washed them first.
Sadly, the amount of time and lack of witnesses means that it is more than likely this will be another Ben Needham case. One of those names consigned to history that everyone knows and has an opinion about.

That's shocking christina how was that using the funds to which they were intendedshock
I'm sure the people that made donations would have been very angry at this!

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 11:22:57

One of the objectives of the Fund is to help Madeleine's family, so paying a couple of mortgage payments could be seen as legitimate.

However, I doubt whether the old ladies and school children who gave out of their pensions and pocket money, thinking they were donating to a charity to help find a missing child, would see it in that light.

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 11:27:27

The fund had also paid massive litigation fees to silence anybody that didn't agree with the McCanns story. Shocking use of the money, which IMO was taken under false pretences, as it was going to a ltd company, not a charity. I accept this wasn't hidden, but neither was it made clear. And it's a very odd thing to do.

Housemum Fri 09-May-14 11:34:47

Anyone setting up this kind of thing should make it very clear how it's going to be spent - for instance a local charity for a terminally ill child raised more than expected, they have now said that as they have done the child's dream things and can afford for mum to stay home for what time the child has, the rest now goes to another charity for terminally ill kids. I would expect the McCann fund to be for hiring investigators/funding trips to search/in part will need to pay mortgage so parent(s) can take time off work. But any surplus should be kept until a resolution one way or the other, then it should go to the national missing children charity.

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 11:39:25

And they suppressed some of the 'evidence' found by the investigators paid by the fund. It only came out years later in last years' Crimewatch. If that isn't verging on use of people's donations then what is?

What twitterer should i be following?

CinnabarRed Fri 09-May-14 12:14:50

Costa, or anyone else come to that, could you summarise what the Portuguese police have as their primary (and secondary, I suppose) theories?

JonathanGirl Fri 09-May-14 12:20:40

The dogs' evidence hasn't been discredited (apart from by the McCanns) but it's not sufficient evidence on its own to be admissible, I think.

The fact is, those dogs did alert, they did detect what they are trained to detect.

JonathanGirl Fri 09-May-14 12:21:15

The dogs' evidence hasn't been discredited (apart from by the McCanns) but it's not sufficient evidence on its own to be admissible, I think.

The fact is, those dogs did alert, they did detect what they are trained to detect.

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 12:27:03

That is one of the problems I have with the McCanns: they discredit the dogs findings, instead of saying words to the effect, 'please God, no, we will believe that she hasn't come to harm until it's proved that she has'.

Or perhaps that is their way of expressing that sentiment?

Deux Fri 09-May-14 12:34:55

The dog search is on You Tube.

So who died in that apartment and whose dead body was in the car?

It's quite chilling.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 12:39:58

The portuguese and UK police also had phone evidence which was also not allowed because it was seen as invasive I think because the phones were intercepted without permission?? I am prepared for costa to maybe correct me on that as I know it was in the Portugal press a lot but never here.

MamaMary Fri 09-May-14 12:51:28

Interesting - I never heard that phone evidence wasn't allowed. Is there a lot online about this?

I remember (back at the time of the last threads when I read loads on this) reading about some call logs and that Kate had made a lot of calls to a friend on the night before. Not related to anything at all, yet there were theories around it... there are a lot of wacky theories out there.

The more you read, the more confused you get. There are so many inconsistencies in the whole thing.

There was a guy who gave up his job to dedicate his life to studying this case, and he concluded that the body is buried in an ex-pats front garden? He was convinced of it! Yet it seemed nuts.

wannaBe Fri 09-May-14 13:04:23

talking about the neglect angle of this case will have this thread deleted.... apparently it's only ok to judge this course of action if the children don't actually come to harm. But coming to harm removes that responsibility because of the loss suffered as a result. hmm

Deux Fri 09-May-14 13:11:26

On reading some of the PJ files, it would seem that some of the Tapas group had their children securely locked in the apartment and also had baby monitors of a spec high enough to be effective from the tapas bar.

Jane Tanner had one too. She went to the tapas bar to try it out and found it was out of range.

Had no idea.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 13:13:02

I think phone evidence is only allowed if a court order has been obtained in advance ie you can only use it as evidence if the court has pre-approved the listening/tracking/reading of text messages etc which of course is only any good if you know a crime is going to be committed or you already have suspicions about that person. So the police can know about calls/messages etc but not be able to use them as evidence

There were also a number of calls deleted on the McCanns phones in the days leading up to 3 May

I don't know if I should post the PT theory but it is very easy to find online - or send me a message?

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 13:13:42

It is all very confusing thats for sure. Both parents said they felt they were being watched yet went out and left an unlocked apartment? The UK police are on their way back home now so was very quick

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 13:14:45

I subscribe 100% to the PT theory of what happened. It is the only one that fits the evidence they do have.

ClarksonsPerm Fri 09-May-14 13:17:06

What's the PT theory?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 13:19:03

Anyone who would like to know the theory at the point the investigation was shelved, send me a private message, or google it - it should be easy to find

MamaMary Fri 09-May-14 13:22:34

Yes this thread could very easily be deleted.

MN are extremely twitchy about this subject, with very good reason. To their credit they allowed several threads to stand before. One was deleted after posters came on to derail it by posting the same message repeatedly.

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 13:23:51

Pm's you, costa.

cathyandclaire Fri 09-May-14 13:30:28

What does PT stand for?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 13:41:40

Portugal!

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 13:41:43

PT = Portugal

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 13:42:37

Haven't got it wembley?

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 13:45:59

On my phone - will try again.

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 13:49:15

Sent now. smile

cathyandclaire Fri 09-May-14 13:49:56

ahhhhhh

<cancels plans for a future career in crime detection grin>

MamaMary Fri 09-May-14 13:50:23

Thanks - thought PT was some code for something else! Overthinking it.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 13:54:41

Sorry - I'm just used to it as shorthand - nothing too exciting grin

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 14:13:35

I think I've answered all pm's for now - thanks everyone

CinnabarRed Fri 09-May-14 14:17:36

I've just PM'd you.

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 14:17:45

Thank you, costa.

JonathanGirl Fri 09-May-14 14:19:58

I find it so shocking that there's a chance the thread might be deleted just for stating the conclusions of the official investigation

And I also find it shocking that, given the massively high profile of the case, the outcome of the Portuguese investigation isn't common knowledge in this country.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 14:25:47

I know, I'm shocked too tbh

KeinBock Fri 09-May-14 14:41:37

With regards to the McCanns dismissing the findings of the dogs and insisting that there was "no proof" that Madeleine had come to any harm - I'm sure I recall reading that there was is a type of neglect charge under Portuguese law, which only applies if a child is proven to have been harmed/injured.
I think it's possible that the McCann's lawyers had directed them to maintain this stance, to avoid such a charge.
Of course, I may well be wrong about this, someone more knowledgeable may be able to correct me.

Deux Fri 09-May-14 15:02:31

I'm shocked too. I had no idea. I found a translation online.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 15:04:08

Anything other than abduction implicates the parents

CinnabarRed Fri 09-May-14 15:10:21

I'm still struggle to find out what the conclusion of the official PJ investigation actually was. I can find Amaral's theories, but not an official, publicly available PJ document.

Is there a summarising document in the PJ files, translated into English?

KeinBock Fri 09-May-14 15:11:53

Yes, I suppose it does, doesn't it.

KeinBock Fri 09-May-14 15:12:27

Sorry, that was in response to Noddy's comment re abduction

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 15:21:19

When Amaral was taken off the case another inspector took over. Amaral's conclusion was well known but when the case was shelved it was because of the insufficient forensics.But the inspector who took over was a witness in the libel trial re the book The truth of the lie and when he was asked if there was anything in the book that wasn't concluded in the police files he said that no the book was true to the investigation with nothing added

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 15:27:24

Here is a summary at the archiving
www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi6

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 15:28:52

... how long before this thread gets pulled?

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 16:04:52

lavolcan it is not commentary on parenting which is why threads have been pulled previously it is just a sharing of facts as printed in Kate McCann's book and the portuguese files which the McCanns themselves have used in their own searches

Deux Fri 09-May-14 16:23:46

I'm obviously trying to speed catchup with all the information out there.

So in the libel trial, the accusers sought an out of court settlement/wanted to negotiate with Amaral?

I didn't read anything of their reasoning for this and I hope Amaral holds his nerve.

I'm guessing it would be pretty catastrophic for them if Amaral wins.

MamaMary Fri 09-May-14 16:29:16

I watched Amaral's documentary and thought he came across as measured, (fairly) balanced and plausible. However I'm not sure his conclusions were the right ones.

KeinBock Fri 09-May-14 16:32:11

Is the libel trial still ongoing, then? That seems to have been taking a long time.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 16:34:52

It has been adjourned. The attempted to settle with him but he refused. Now I think according to news papers they are awaiting the info re Madeleine being a ward of court in which case her parents can't sue on her behalf. So they can only sue for their other children and themselves

PatrickStarisabadbellend Fri 09-May-14 16:38:39

Why will the thread get pulled? I don't get it.

MrRedAndBlue Fri 09-May-14 16:44:09

Dogs don't lie.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 16:44:22

I think Amaral will hold his nerve - his life has been ruined, assets seized, divorced - so he really has nothing to lose now, and he has had so much thrown at him, I think he would have given up ages ago if he was going to

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 16:52:09

Why did the threads get pulled? I am tempted to say that we didn't sing from the right hymn sheet.

e.g. on a previous thread a year or two back I said that we didn't know what had happened; since none of us were there, all we could say was that Madeleine disappeared. Pretty innocuous, but no, my post was deleted for breaking the talk guidelines, although I couldn't for the life of me see which guideline it was breaking.

MrsMaturin Fri 09-May-14 16:52:52

Can the dogs also explain how their supposed conclusions would actually have played in out in the circumstances known to have taken place?

Oh no hang on - no they can't. Why would that be?

Because as they are dogs they can't reason nor explain their reactions.....

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 16:55:08

I thought Amaral/the court had now received the information about the Ward of Court business, but is now studying what it means.

SatansFurryJamHats Fri 09-May-14 16:58:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 16:59:22

Perhaps they have but court time will have to be scheduled again once the papers have been submitted to the process - at the moment I haven't heard that that has happened

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 16:59:28

The dogs can't say anything except indicate blood/cadaver.

Wasn't there something like that in the Shannon Matthews' case, where the dogs indicated something? In that case though, the furniture had been bought 2nd/3rd hand from a junk shop, and presumably was from a deceased persons house clearance. Or am I completely remembering this? I don't know where the furniture came from in the McCann's holiday flat.

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 17:00:21

mis- remembering this, that should say.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 17:03:12

Yes I think cadaver dogs did signal in the Matthews house and it was found that the bed was second hand from someone who died there - there have been no reported deaths in 5a and the alerts were behind the sofa/in the wardrobe/on cuddlecat/in the car/car key fob/garden area outside 5a and items of clothing belonging to the McCanns

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 17:08:46

There were no alerts in the apartments occupied by the other families in the group - nor in robert murat's house - I can just imagine the McCanns' reactions if the dogs had alerted there - I don't think they'd be explaining them away with rotten meat/soiled nappies then!

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 17:11:22

No they did have an answer for everything.

SatansFurryJamHats Fri 09-May-14 17:13:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

I have PMed.
If the sniffer dogs picked up a scent on KM's trousers, are they the pair she was wearing the night MM went missing?

thinkingaboutfostering Fri 09-May-14 17:16:24

What doesn't make sense is that the. Car was rented a month or more after mm went missing. They were at that point being watched by the media I really cannot see that she was ever in that car.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 17:22:56

Perhaps have a read of the files thinking?

As i said upthread, the dogs found dna in the apartment, not just "the scent". Dna was sent to uk for processing, and they (the uk lab, bugger all to do with inept portugese) contaminated the tiny sample and it was useless.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 17:27:46

I don't think they were stealth although there are photos of Kate wearing those trousers later

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 17:28:33

It was the UK that led the portuguese down the route of dogs/DNA/ looking at the parents etc Their initial thought was about her wandering off although that was never in the McCann scheme of things from day one. Gerry had a flip chart and was talking about his 'wider agenda' within weeks

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 17:31:15

And an elton john concert for the 1 year anniversary when she'd only been missing a few weeks!

MamaMary Fri 09-May-14 17:50:16

The cadaver dog alerted behind the sofa.
The blood dog alerted behind the sofa at the exact same spot. They alerted at several other points in the McCanns' possessions, properties and car, as Costa listed above.

The same dogs were taken into all the Tapas 7 apartments and cars as well as Robert Murat's house. They were taken all over Praia da Luz. They didn't alert anywhere else.

This is largely what Amaral bases his theory on.
However, his theory is far from watertight.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 17:58:32

There are other factors too - the Smith family sighting for example, and contradictions in the time the alarm was raised, no evidence of an intruder etc - but the dog alerts were significant. Perhaps these latest developments will help fill in the gaps

nomorequotes Fri 09-May-14 18:02:43

Hopefully this latest set of investigations will bring something up.

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 18:08:33

So much about this sad case doesn't make sense. That is why a reconstruction would have been good. I thought Amiral was about to organise one before he was suddenly pulled from the case?

I suspect that now, it would be too late. How many of us would remember what we were doing seven years ago, even if it was a special occasion which we might expect to remember, and not just an ordinary day.

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Fri 09-May-14 18:08:56

This is all quite bewildering but am now very interested to see how it pans out, I do feel a bit stupid for just assuming the story that was in the press was the whole truth. I am signed up to twitter, but don't know how to get updates on things <luddite> - would be really grateful if someone could PM me as to how to follow updates on this story on twitter?

FallonColby Fri 09-May-14 18:11:05

I am not shocked at all that the results of the PJ investigation could not freely be discussed in this country - Carter Ruck has been paid thousands to make sure of that.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 18:13:40

You could start with following @xklamation on twitter, she's based in Portugal and has a blog where she translates a lot of Pt news reports and explains PT legal processes. You'll then see people she retweets and can start following them too!

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 18:17:53

But isn't it shocking that that can happen in a democracy with a supposed free press fallon? All those donations to the fund from children and pensioners gone to suppress reports from a real police investigation

OldFarticus Fri 09-May-14 18:18:15

Pat Brown's profile of the disappearance of MM is an interesting read, for anyone who is interested. Reaches similar conclusions to the PT police.

FallonColby Fri 09-May-14 18:24:45

I agree Costa, the very sad thing is that most of those who donated to the fund have no idea that their money would be used to employ the services of PR firms, lawyers and a very top extradition lawyer, Michael Caplan QC. I also think that the online store should be closed immediately.

6789 Fri 09-May-14 18:26:08

How likely is it that one of her parents could know something that the other doesn't?

Is that likely/possible?

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 18:28:51

They could do a reconstruction from the statements of those there and they wouldn't need to remember minute for minute as the police have all the timings etc

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Fri 09-May-14 18:29:53

dunnit - thx!

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 18:33:05

I suppose anything is possible 6789 I don't know that I could hold something like that back from my partner but stranger things have happened

thinkingaboutfostering Fri 09-May-14 18:36:29

Costa I have read the files thanks I still don't see how the dog could be correct when the car wasn't hired for a month after mm disappeared. Dogs are good but their not perfect

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 18:39:26

I don't think I can elaborate on here but there is an possible explanation

SatansFurryJamHats Fri 09-May-14 18:53:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 18:57:05

From Kate and Gerry's website:

We are dismayed with the way the media has behaved over the last couple of days in relation to our daughter’s case. There is an on-going, already challenging, police investigation taking place and media interference in this way not only makes the work of the police more difficult, it can potentially damage and destroy the investigation altogether – and hence the chances of us finding Madeleine and discovering what has happened to her. As Madeleine’s parents, this just compounds our distress. We urge the media to let the police get on with their work and please show some respect and consideration to Madeleine and all our family.

Thank you.

Gerry and Kate

I hope this thread is pulled. It's full of pretty vile insinuations against the McCanns.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 18:58:30

Shame they didn't think of that when they withhold the efit

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 18:58:34

It would seem that the car is a red herring but is it really? They are digging in an area which was over run with tourists and police and media so whatever was buried there wasn't. Buried that night or in the immediate aftermath as it would have been seen. Yet the police are looking there.

JonathanGirl Fri 09-May-14 18:59:08

It was two different dogs. They both alerted, one to blood and the other to a cadaver.

We don't know whose blood/body it was.

But it is difficult to believe that two dogs could have independently alerted incorrectly in the same place.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 18:59:20

Really Satan you must have missed my many posts saying the same thing, and requesting people send private messages instead

Thank you to everyone who has done so - I hope I've replied to all of you, there have been a lot and it's taken most of the afternoon, but good to talk to you all

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 19:02:41

Nobody has made 'vile' insinuations against the McCanns - in the main they have said that the published data from the Portuguese police does not tally with the story our Press has been telling us.

Well, we can believe that the Portuguese are totally incompetent and that our Press are saintly upholders of the truth, but both of those are extreme positions, which I personally don't hold.

MrsMaturin Fri 09-May-14 19:03:01

I have a theory.......perhaps I can get it shared on websites and read by credulous ghouls?

My theory is that the police have set the whole thing up with the dig because they feel so guilty that they've been eating tapas for the last 7 years instead of being where they should have been.
I think you'll find my theory explains all of the confusing circumstances AND has the added benefit that we can all feel bloody smug.

I will be setting up a blog with this theory shortly. Of course I will have to go back to school to unlearn how to write in coherent sentences first.

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 19:05:16

I certainly get the impression that Scotland Yard have had a few nice jollies to Portugal in the last few months.

BenevolentVole Fri 09-May-14 19:07:32

What about the string of attacks on young girls in holiday villas which occurred during the same period in the same area?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:10:00

Strangely there are no records of these assaults being reported to police, and only British children seem to have been targeted - no Portuguese, Dutch, German, Spanish

I live in one of the villages mentioned and am in contact with lots of tourists every year and have not heard of one - even out local GNR chief was interviewed on tv and didn't know anything about it - all very strange

It is all too sad for words - and I agree that this thread is not helping anybody.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:14:12

It's very easy to ignore it if you're not interested in discussing the case - it's not for everyone but it's very close to home for me

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 19:14:28

They don't seem concrete cases People coming forward years later when it was so high profile. I don't think any children were taken. It does seem that both police forces are looking at another scenario now as Dye approached Portugal to do this dig so they must be thinking differently bringing it back to the scene. Crime watch seemed more focused on her maybe being in another country but that doesn't seem the case now

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:15:14

Can't blame them LaVolcan it's a beautiful country and the weather at the moment is fantastic

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 19:16:07

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 19:16:14

Yes, costa, a policeman's lot is not a happy one!

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 19:17:37

Who has said that Sabrina?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:18:28

And there was everyone being nice and discussing specifics privately - I hope your post doesn't get the thread pulled Sabrina or was that the intention?

MrsMaturin Fri 09-May-14 19:18:33

Funny thing about those other incidents. One could argue that the fact that Portugese police are said to have 'no record' says less about the veracity of the incidents and rather more about the practice of the local police? The same police whose integrity appears to hang on poorly translated internet 'files' and not on a successful prosecution.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:20:51

You could MrsMaturin but you'd be wrong and potentially libelling a foreign police force - I don't think that's very wise on an open forum - if I were you I'd report my post and ask for it to be deleted just in case

BornOfFrustration Fri 09-May-14 19:24:14

I need to get my head out from kids tv, I haven't seen a thing about this.

Deux Fri 09-May-14 19:24:35

I haven't read any insinuations at all.

I think the thread has been very measured as so far everything mentioned seems to be a matter of record.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 19:25:41

Amaral said it. I've heard it said by credulous ghouls on these threads before. But thankfully MN deletes them - because they are libellous and not in the spirit of the site.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 19:28:44

But it hasn't been repeated on this thread well apart from you.

YetAnotherHelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Fri 09-May-14 19:28:47

Hi all, we are receiving A Lot of reports about this thread. Just going to have a good look at all of the reports now, but when it comes to threads like this we broadly take a view on whether each one makes parents' lives easier, and we long ago decided to include the McCann parents in that decision, so there is a good chance that it will go. No decision yet, of course, we still have to go through the reports.

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 19:29:14

If we digress into children being assaulted - we have had more than enough cases of our own recently. Furthermore, until the Jimmy Savile business erupted, far far too often the children were not believed. Unfortunately, this appears to be something of a global phenomena.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 19:29:38

The insinuations are the posts giving credence to the PT or the PJ files - the files which accuse Kate and Gerry of either harming their daughter/witnessing her accidental death and then hiding her body.

costa knows this - that's why she's only pm'ing them to people.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 19:30:37

Thank you, YetAnotherHelenMN.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 19:31:13

But isn't that the view of the Portugal police?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:31:31

Well what a surprise - well done everyone who remained civil it was nice to have a rational discussion, unfortunately not everyone wants that

I'm still available on PM

MamaMary Fri 09-May-14 19:32:41

These threads tend to derail when someone comes on and objects to the fact that people are daring to question one version of events.

The fact is, people have been calming discussing matters of public record - details of which just don't happen to fit with the version of events normally portrayed by the British media. Still, they are perfectly non-libellous.

Sabrina, I have reported your post to hq.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 19:35:10

My post can go - with pleasure - hopefully the whole thread will.

But I'd just like to make clear, that when people allude to the PT theory, or the PJ files, or Amarals theory, ^^ that is what they are insinuating.

Vevvie Fri 09-May-14 19:35:51

Amaral was sacked. He was under investigation for withholding information regarding another missing child.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:36:18

It's not actually

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:37:16

Do you want to discuss the Cipriano case Vevvie - I'm quite happy to - the child who was killed by her mother and uncle, who are both serving prison sentences?

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 19:37:27

Well costa the UK press's view is that the Portuguese police are a bunch of sardine munchers, so of course their investigation must have been wrong.

I suspect that they are pretty much the same as most other western police forces. Our own police forces haven't exactly been covered in glory recently - Stephen Lawrence, Hillsborough cover up are two which spring to mind.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:38:26

Of course - the UK media still think Britannia rules the waves, everyone else is subordinate and should now and scrape!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 19:38:51

What is it then, costa? Instead of shady "Pm me if you want to know" posts - why not say?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 19:39:08

Racism now!

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 19:40:14

Racism?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:40:47

The files are freely available for anyone who wants to look for them but I don't think mumsnet would appreciate links here

Is it really so shocking that a large amount of people think the PJ are telling the truth (whether that comes to the right conclusion or not), rather than believing the version printed by the mail? Especially when not all of mumsnet are in the uk, and arent so privileged to see the red tops take on events? Costa has made it clear on every thread about this, she is posting from portugal, she sees different news to us.

Deux Fri 09-May-14 19:41:11

Did we ever colonise Portugal, that might explain the colonial notion that other nations are inept and if only the Brits took charge, it would all be OK.

Tongue in cheek, obv.

Why would a civilised discussion be silenced?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:41:56

Xenophobia but yes exactly - I've seen it in print in UK media many times - sardine munching, boozy, bungling PT plod - up yours senhor was one memorable headline

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 19:42:02

To be fair the British press's whole take on this case is surreal, so insulting the PJ just seems to be an extension of this.

BenevolentVole Fri 09-May-14 19:42:21

About those other attacks and the Portuguese police not knowing about them, this is from the Guardian:

*However Portugal's Polícia Judiciária (PJ) claimed that Wednesday's press conference simply confirmed a primary line of investigation which has been investigated by Portuguese police since last October. Suggestions that the information released by the Met had initially been discounted by Portuguese detectives were denied by a source at the PJ's headquarters in Lisbon.

He said that evidence of a string of crimes had been the driving force behind Portuguese officials re-opening the case. "It is all there in the police case files," said the source. "You will see when it is made public."*

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:43:07

We've also seen it with Amanda Knox, Shrien Dewani to name but two

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 19:43:09

I believe the McCanns. I don't read tabloids (except when someone links on MN) but I read Kate's book. It's heartbreaking.

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 19:44:32

No, we never colonised Portugal - they are supposedly our oldest ally. I suspect that this is because Great Britain rivalled Spain when they were both establishing their empires, and so any enemy of Spain e.g. Portugal, must be my friend kind of thing.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 19:45:14

I think losing a child in any circumstances is heartbreaking

I'm sure is it sabrina, she has lost her child.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:46:00

That's great Sabrina so there's probably no need for you to follow this thread then

One slightly o/t question. If scotland yard are helping Pj, who have to make all files public, if there are no prosecutions will all of the stuff they are doing now become public as usual, or not because of the sy involvement?

MrRedAndBlue Fri 09-May-14 19:47:49

sabrina - I always encourage people to read the files and then make up their own mind.

The information contained in the files is a matter of public record.

Also worth noting that words spoken in a court are subject to 'absolute privilege' and can be repeated without fear of libel.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 19:47:58

There's no need for me to follow any thread - but when a load of ghouls are congregating, I may speak up.

MamaMary Fri 09-May-14 19:48:14

Why would a civilised discussion be silenced?

Good question. But it will be.

Deux Fri 09-May-14 19:48:36

@LaVolcan - i was joking about us colonising Portugal! (I'm not that thick, really). No offense.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:48:46

I doubt it as SY have their own investigation and that does not have to be made public

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:49:16

Good for you Sabrina - and now you have

Vevvie Fri 09-May-14 19:49:49

He was still taken off the case and sacked.

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 19:49:58

Presumably the PJ will make their files available when the case is closed/archived, if that is their normal policy. SY will probably slap a D notice on theirs and say that they are not to be accessed for 100 years when the majority of us will be long gone.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 19:50:36

I read Kate's book too.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 19:51:24

Ghouls how ridiculous.

Vevvie Fri 09-May-14 19:51:38

There are also, out there on the internet, alternative versions than the PJs.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:51:39

So you don't want to discuss poor Joana? That's a pity but probably for the best, the forensic details in that case really are heartbreaking

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 19:51:43

Thank you costa. I may continue to do so too.

Deux Fri 09-May-14 19:52:19

I'm deeply offended at being called a ghoul, how very dare you.

MamaMary Fri 09-May-14 19:52:42

Agree, Costa, that foreign police forces tend to be denigrated by the UK press - Amanda Knox is a good example. Even those following the Oscar Pistorius case from here have loftily criticised the SA handling of the crime scene. They are all experts because they watch crime programmes

The UK police have been shown to be corrupt, if not incompetent and that's worse. Stephen Lawrence, Plebgate, Hillsborough to name 3 cases in the new recently.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:53:28

And poor Tia Sharp - they couldn't find her body right above their heads

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 19:53:38

I read Kate's book too. There wasn't much about Madeleine in it, as far as I remember. I could have done without knowing about Kate and Gerry's love life!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 19:55:05

This thread is picking over the bones of this case of a missing child in a very ghoulish way. All this "ooh, pm me wink wink "

hmm

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:55:55

Ok if you insist smile

Deux Fri 09-May-14 19:56:35

I came to this thread knowing very little and beleiving the Press view of bungling buffoons in Portugal and how it really needs SY to take charge and sort it out.

Then mention of PJ files. I've only read bits but, eg, Jane Tanner's rogatory interview was carried out by Leicester police. I just found it interesting to read her statement.

<Off to get back in my ghoulmobile>

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:58:12

Interesting, but now discredited and discounted by SY no less

Deux Fri 09-May-14 19:58:33

Let's not forget Mark Duggan, shoot first ask questions later. Oops he's dead, never mind.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 19:58:54

But I don't think its fair to tarnish the Portuguese police force.

You could do the same with Scotland yard over the plebgate scandle.

Honestly, i would suggest to mn that the best idea for these threads is to keep them in the news, and keep both the "neglect" shouters and the "oh my god, you are all ghouls" off it, and keep a close eye out for anything libellous.

The subject isnt going away, it is news. No different to oscar pistourius or the missing plane.
And having it unable to be talked about, when our own media are so peculiar about it already is just well, weird.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 19:59:18

The book is not something that bears any resemblance to the fiesta and contradicts a lot of things Kate said before and after in interviews. It has pictures of various suspects apart from one the one SY now consider most important yet they had the efit in their possession

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 19:59:34

And jean charles menezes

Deux Fri 09-May-14 19:59:51

@costa. That's what made me seek it out.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 20:00:31

Fiesta should read files

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 20:00:56

After seven years of not knowing what has happened in one of the most famous missing child cases it looks as though there is some sort of major development. Why do you consider that ghoulish rather than newsworthy?

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 20:00:58

And phone hacking

EverythingCounts Fri 09-May-14 20:01:26

Sabrina, MNHQ are watching the thread so they will take care of anything that crosses the line. I assume you're being paid per use of the word 'ghoulish'. Does that mean you believe Madeleine is dead, by the way?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 20:01:54

Mmm.. costa, I think most people can get the measure of you from your, ahem, comment above about Tia Sharpe. Nice.

Should really pop over to the pistorious thread (#7 now isnt it? And thats just the court case) and tell them they are all just ghouls?

Deux Fri 09-May-14 20:04:39

What a mean thing to say about Costa, she was just being factual. Unpalatable but factual.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 20:04:49

Costa has been very informative from Portugal it's great to have that view point. Sabrina you don't have to read this thread you know.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 20:05:20

Why Sabrina? Its true they did miss two chances to find her body.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 20:05:52

Following a deliberately publicised court case is not ghoulish - doing pm's of nasty little theories about the McCanns is.

Deux Fri 09-May-14 20:06:49

Maybe Sabrina needs more glitter and fairy dust. You know, just to make it all look nice.

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Fri 09-May-14 20:06:50

Costa before the thread gets whooshed - thanks for this. Shame that calm presentation of facts can be hijacked by vested interests. At least some of us now more enlightened.

Deux Fri 09-May-14 20:09:07

I'm definitely more enlightened too.

So thanks costa et al. It was a lovely ride. Until the bump in the road.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 20:09:46

I don't see anything nasty about discussing an investigation carried out by my adopted country's police force - or by stating that the police failed to find Tia Sharp - they're both facts - I haven't invented or embroidered anything, it's all quite puzzling the effect the word McCann has on some people

nomorequotes Fri 09-May-14 20:11:22

Why is this thread being deleted?

This is a discussion, nothing more, nothing less.
The fact remains that she is still missing.

So people can discuss how they like about it imo.

Calling people ghouls sabrina isn't on

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 20:12:25

Sabrina the posting I found most ghoulish is your own of 19:16 this evening.

Missing children are news, as they should be: April Jones, Hollie and Jessica of Soham, Ben Needham. Sadly two of those cases had tragic outcomes and another one is still unresolved.

"Thread deleted because, well, it turned into a bit of a bunfight"

Its a common one. Mn let the thread stand, the defenders get all pissed off at it so come in and pick a fight. Well done. Again. flowers

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 09-May-14 20:14:40

The blind believers don't like it being questioned because they know there's a lots to answer and they can't.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 20:15:16

Sabrina the posting I found most ghoulish is your own of 19:16 this evening.

Yes! Because I put into words what the pj files are all about. People just thought they were being clever by saying the 'pj theory' or whatever- but that's what it is. That's what this whole thread turned into.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 20:15:55

It's a sadly familiar pattern, not very original any more

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 20:16:28

But who turned it into that Sabrina?

EffectiveCommunication Fri 09-May-14 20:16:40

Still catching up. If these dogs can smell blood did anyone consider maybe Kate was on her period at the time?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 20:17:04

You did costa.

CatsCantTwerk Fri 09-May-14 20:17:42

I understand MNHQ do not want to be Carter rucked but I'm sure in a few days/weeks/months time there is going to be so many threads about this case and a lot of shocked readers when it happens.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 20:17:51

I thought it was turning out to be a bitch fest of British policing grin

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 20:18:01

Yes I think you'll find that has been considered - I'm not sure why the dog would alert behind the sofa and in the garden if that were the case though?

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 20:19:15

I suspect that a lot of police files would be 'ghoulish' if we had access to them.

I don't recall the stuff I have read in the press about Max Clifford in the past couple of days being a pleasant read either, but it was still newsworthy.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 20:19:21

Really? I think perhaps your mind is playing tricks on you Sabrina but this is the last post of yours I will read or respond to as it is not possible to have a rational discussion with you. Goodnight

Didnt you say you hadnt read the pj files sabrina? Sorry if you didnt , cba to go back and read through!

Deux Fri 09-May-14 20:19:31

Sabrina, the PJ files are much more than that!

Seriously?

I'm guessing you haven't read anything in them, even the stuff by the fine upstanding British cops.

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Fri 09-May-14 20:19:43

grin

DD 15 was asking questions about MM today (not something she has ever really done previously)and in part thanks to this thread I was able to say well.....there is this theory and certain things were meant to have happened or just didn't correlate but really you have to keep an open mind (as I do) and her comment on various points raised in this thread was "I can see it being spun both ways"

To my mind that's what this thread has been,an open discussion regarding an emotive subject that should not warrant deletion.
Costa has put forward some interesting points that I as an adult can evaluate in my own mind and I thank "her" for that.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 20:20:22

Goodnight costa - ooh - do PM me though hmm

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 20:20:48

I think we may all remember your post in the near future Cats

CatsCantTwerk Fri 09-May-14 20:20:49

EffectiveCommunication confused

The dogs detected cadaver (dead body) not blood.

Deux Fri 09-May-14 20:21:29

Carter-rucked, love it. Whole new verb. smile

Or is it cockney rhyming slang? Arf.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 20:21:59

Thank you gardener it's appreciated

Two dogs - one cadaver dog, one blood dog

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 20:22:40

One dog detects blood, the other cadaver and blood that's why they work together

And (again) dna samples were collected from the blood found, sent to a british lab, and the british lab contaminated them and made them useless.

Maryz Fri 09-May-14 20:23:20

The only reason that costa is sending pm's is because of the ridiculous way that statements of fact are deleted.

I don't know an awful lot about the minutiae of the case, but I've always felt sorry for the way the Portuguese police were treated by the tabloids from the very beginning.

And I've never seen a MMcC thread that hasn't been deliberately turned into a bunfight and ultimately deleted.

nomorequotes Fri 09-May-14 20:23:21

carter-rucked

legally-fu....

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 20:23:27

deux, it may surprise you, but I have read a lot of the pj files. I don't buy it. I think a paedophile took Madeleine. There were (and still are) active paedophiles in the area.

Note, lab is not a third dog wink

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 20:24:40

What makes you think that Sabrina? If you don't mind me asking?

As I said upthread (seem to spend a lot of this repeating myself!) i dont understand why people prefer to think there is some random paedo on the loose who breaks in and steals children like the boogeyman!

Deux Fri 09-May-14 20:26:58

@sabrina. Yawn and here's some glitter. Don't you go speculating, y'hear. You might get carter-rucked.

Let's all decline the verb 'to be carter-rucked'.

EffectiveCommunication Fri 09-May-14 20:27:12

So where was blood found and were was cadaver found by the dogs?

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 20:27:41

Private Eye was a bit ruder about the esteemed firm Carter Ruck, but I won't repeat it. It only needs a couple of letters to be changed.

Let us not forget that the famous dogs in question were British dogs, (not bulldogs!), spaniels. Brought in by the Leicester Police - so not by the bungling Johnny Foreigner sardine munching Portuguese.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 20:27:48

Being taken by a paedophile is "glittery" now??

Strange world. Strange thread.

Deux Fri 09-May-14 20:27:58

@sabrina, where's your evidence then?

In the apartment and the hire car, and on kates clothes. All excused away by various reasons.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 20:29:04

I gave a list further upthread Effective

EffectiveCommunication Fri 09-May-14 20:29:16

So what was found in her trousers, Blood? well if she had her period that could explain that?

nomorequotes Fri 09-May-14 20:29:29

Unfortunately with the large expanse of coastline in Portugal and the relative ease of crossing the Gibraltar Strait, it would make no difference to close borders, they frequently have people trying to cross that expanse of water in open fridge freezers and stuff it is mayhem.

I'm sure that, as a doctor, she might have thought that would be a more plausible reason than the dead patients she saw to the week before.

nomorequotes Fri 09-May-14 20:30:48

I don't understand why it is preferable for people to believe she was taken either. I pray she met an accidental death myself.

Hellokittycat Fri 09-May-14 20:32:04

Costa I'm fascinated by this thread. It's really opened my eyes. I can't seem to pm you though. Would you mind messaging me instead please? Thanks very much

MrRedAndBlue Fri 09-May-14 20:32:46

she only worked 1.5 days a week! As a GP she wouldn't have come into contact with that many dead bodies anyway.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 20:34:17

It's nothing to do with you "want" to have happened - it's what's more likely. There were several known paedophiles in the area. Maybe there are some parents that would do what the pj files accuse the McCanns of - but would they have alerted the press in the way they did? And keep on keeping the story in the public eye like this? They badgered DC to re-open the case - why? Because their daughter is missing, and they want to know what happened to her.

Well now I've learnt something too mrredandblue! Wasnt it six dead patients? In 1.5 days. Shocking.

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 20:36:21

As a GP she wouldn't have come into contact with that many dead bodies anyway.

Not unless she was another Harold Shipman, and absolutely no-one has ever suggested that! Hopefully, he was a one off.

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EffectiveCommunication Fri 09-May-14 20:36:36

So can someone please explain which places the dogs found blood in please? Was it the trousers and the pink cat Kate carried around? if so it is not so hard as women to work out how blood could have got there.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 20:36:41

So, all the posters above are accusing KM of handling the dead body of her daughter?

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Fri 09-May-14 20:38:14

I do find it puzzling that people are disposed to expecting elaborate solution involving paedophile rings rather than a simple accident. I have no agenda, but generally apply Ockhams Razor - the simple solution, requiring no intervention by outside agencies, is the place to start. if that is not proven, move outwards.

EffectiveCommunication Fri 09-May-14 20:38:30

Was there any blood on GM's clothing?

Lavolcan, I think that might count as libellous! grin

Vevvie Fri 09-May-14 20:39:26

It looks like it Sanrina.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 20:40:00

The cadaver dog alerted to the trousers not the blood dog. It's not the same.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 20:41:33

Also, why is talking about the case while its a news story ghoulish but going out and spend money on reading about it not?

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 20:42:03

*on a book

EffectiveCommunication Fri 09-May-14 20:45:08

So who is Brian kennedy then?

They didn't pay off their mortgage they used the fund to help with two payments totallying £4,000 when they were in Portugal in the weeks following the night their daughter went missing.

MrRedAndBlue Fri 09-May-14 20:45:24

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GoodtoBetter Fri 09-May-14 20:45:54

I can't really believe that the McCanns had anything to do with this, some of the theories are just insane and ridiculous, but what I would like to know is when the e fit was supresssed there was something about the report that went with it being "Highly critical" of the McCanns, why? What did it say?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 20:46:07

There are two Brian Kennedys - one is Kate's uncle, the other is a businessman

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 20:46:28

Libellous? It wasn't meant that way. Shipman (shudder) I hope was truly unique.

TheLateMrs - I would prefer the theory that she just wandered off. It's all very well saying that she wouldn't have done. Unfortunately with a lot of small children you never know what they will get up to until they have gone and done it.

YetAnotherHelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Fri 09-May-14 20:51:20

Hi all, we are still keeping an eye on this thread but would like to draw your attention to the fact that Mumsnet Talk Guidelines cover PMs as well. Wherever you're posting your thoughts, we feel that speculation about the involvement of devastated parents in their child's murder is just beyond the pale. So we'd appreciate if if you would bear this in mind.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 20:51:36

I don't know that the critical comments were made public Good

Whatever mrred said went quickly. So hq are reading and have chose as yet not to delete the whole thing...

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 20:54:17

I don't think you'll find 'murder' in any of my posts or pm's but thank you anyway Helen

CateBlanket Fri 09-May-14 20:55:26

HelenMN - where has anyone speculated that Madeleine's parents were involved in her murder?

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Fri 09-May-14 20:55:43

LaVolcan very true. And when DS2 came home from a Shrek cinema party upset because of the advert shown re MM being 'stolen from her bed', we explained to him that she had probably wandered off, and that he was safe indoors with his mummy and daddy who would not go out and leave him alone. (Did at the time make us very angry at the pointless scaring of our innocent small children angry)

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 20:56:52

Murder?

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Fri 09-May-14 20:57:10

...err no-one mentioned murder did they? [puzzled]

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 20:57:30

speculation about the involvement of devastated parents in their child's murder is just beyond the pale.

Murder? Thought it was still a missing persons case?

EffectiveCommunication Fri 09-May-14 20:57:47

oh dear Helen. sad

MrRedAndBlue Fri 09-May-14 20:59:01

i'm pretty sure no one has suggested that the McCanns murdered their child - it is certainly what i believe.

what i posted was an verbatim excerpt from Kate's published book about Pamela Fenn and compared with the verbatim statement given to the PJ by Pamela Fenn herself - this statement is a matter of public record.

It seems MHHQ didn't like it, which is their perogative. I won't post either of those things again.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 20:59:06

Not sure why mrredandblue post was deleted?

EffectiveCommunication Fri 09-May-14 21:00:02

Me neither, it was extracts from KM's book.

eightyearsonhere Fri 09-May-14 21:00:10

I donated to the fund and am 100 % happy if my money was used to pay for the family to be able to continue live in their house. No problem with that whatsoever.

Do you mean not what you believe mrred!?

MrRedAndBlue Fri 09-May-14 21:00:30

*it is certainly ISN'T what i believe.*

Copyright? confused

EffectiveCommunication Fri 09-May-14 21:01:32

Though Mrredandblue's statement she posted may be from a different person to the one KM is referring to in her book.

MrRedAndBlue Fri 09-May-14 21:02:11

to reiterate - i do not believe that Mr and Mrs McCann murdered their daughter and whatever happened I'm sure they wish they could turn back the clock.

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Fri 09-May-14 21:03:36

Having recently read the official files there is no suggestion of murder.

EffectiveCommunication Fri 09-May-14 21:04:47

I think Helen just made a booboo and needs to post something now, to end all the Taggart quotes.

Costa
I get that you have strong opinions and believe certain things to be untrue given your close proximity to the scene etc, however what is the point of all the PM me stuff?
It just serves to feed the amateur detectives, when the reality
of the situation is that no-one, unless they were actually there, has a clue what happened that night. Picking over statements online and analysing evidence? Is anyone on here actually qualified to do that?
This whole thread is distasteful (and yes I know I can hide it), but find all the speculation and gossiping just horrible.
Such a sad story. Why can't people just let it be?

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:07:25

What armchair detectives? Don't think anyone here has claimed to solve the case?

nomorequotes Fri 09-May-14 21:08:00

Because the media and the Mccanns continuously put it in the spotlight?

Why are people not allowed to talk about this news story?

Deux Fri 09-May-14 21:08:22

Good grief, murder? Seriously.

I thought it could only be treated as missing persons in the absence of any evidence.

Foot. Shot.

amateur detectives
Scanning the internet for statements and files.
Just don't get the mindset, that's all.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 21:10:31

Ask yourselves why the McCanns repeatedly put in the spotlight.

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Fri 09-May-14 21:11:11

I think the reason for Pm is that people have had posts inexplicably deleted, and even been suspended, reasons unknown, for posting on MM threads in the past. PMing is perfectly legitimate MN activity, people do it all the time on many threads - good on Costa for giving up her time to reply to PMs. Nothing sinister. Honi soit qui mal y pense...

Maryz Fri 09-May-14 21:11:51

Helen, to be fair to Costa, I think (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that all she is pm'ing is the portuguese police's theory, which is along the lines of thinking it was a tragic accident.

But on previous threads even posting "it may well have been a tragic accident" has lead to deletions.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:12:50

Yy Maryz

No-one said you can't talk about it. Yes it's in the news and people are bound to discuss it. I am too, on here.
There's a big difference however between discussing it and obsessively trawling the internet. PMing each other with new facts from websites.
Just don't understand that.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 21:14:57

Well Mint the sheer volume of messages I've received shows that many people are interested in a different view than that available in the UK media

With the current developments in the investigation, which looks like it is stepping up a gear so likely to be in the news for a while to come, it is inevitable that people will look for more information - remind themselves of the background etc

For me, I am tired of hearing about bungling PT plod and am just standing up for my adopted country and its people

Joules68 Fri 09-May-14 21:14:57

Is this HQ person the same one who disabled posting on New Year's Eve?

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:15:27

Who is pm'ing who with new facts?

Deux Fri 09-May-14 21:15:57

@mintchoc

I'll tell you why i'm on this thread and that is because of the UK press portrayal of the portugese investigation somehow being bungled.

Who did it, what happened I,ve no idea.

On reading this thread, i became aware that all the witness statements etc relating to the case were available online, as per portugese law.

And quite frankly i was shocked by some of what I came across as i had no recollection of any such mention in the UK press.

And yes stuff like the Gaspers' statements were quite shocking to read. Are they relevant? I don't know, no clue but what is known is that they were sat on by the uk police.

Maryz Fri 09-May-14 21:16:58

Joules, it's nothing to do with that, or with individual HQ-ers hmm

Historically MMcC threads have got really very nasty and have been deleted. That, along with the possibility of litigation, have made MNHQ very wary, understandably.

Joules68 Fri 09-May-14 21:18:10

helen is talking about murder??

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 21:18:48

Is this HQ person the same one who disabled posting on New Year's Eve?

That's pretty nasty. But no, it isn't.

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 21:19:11

Is the HQ person the same one who deleted my posts, when I said that 'disappeared' would be a better word than 'abduction' because we weren't there, so none of us know what happened?

Vevvie Fri 09-May-14 21:20:23

Cadaver dog ...

Trousers ....

Blood ....

Harold Shipman ....

Missing child - could be read to some like what Helen has pointed out.

Maryz Fri 09-May-14 21:21:09

How about not having a go at any named HQ people hmm

This is a MNHQ policy - take it up with Justine if you want to. Don't get personal on a thread ffs.

ExcuseTypos Fri 09-May-14 21:24:15

I'm glad MNHQ are keeping an eye on this thread.

The whole idea that 2 parents have perpetuated a story for 7 years, about the disappearance of their dd, (whilst doing everything humanly possible to keep the story in the madia) is absolutely bonkers.

YetAnotherHelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Fri 09-May-14 21:24:27

Evening all, many apologies, clearly 'murder' wasn't an appropriate term to use, it was a slip of the tongue in what is turning out to be a very busy Friday night. However, in all honestly we think any speculation about the involvement of the McCanns in their child's disappearance, of whatever kind, is beyond the pale and unwelcome on MN, whether on the boards or via PM. We hope that clarifies the MN position and apologise again.

We also appreciate that many of you think that the thread should go, and we will be responding to those reports, but over the years we have learned that some MNers do want to discuss the case, and don't feel that it's realistic to ban all mention of it, however if this thread goes down a speculative path we might think again, so would ask everyone to bear that in mind.

ExcuseTypos Fri 09-May-14 21:25:33

Add message | Report | Message poster AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:15:27
Who is pm'ing who with new facts?

There aren't any "new" facts, Anya.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:26:21

But no has said the macans had anything to do with it.

Its more about how the British press have been reporting the case

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 21:26:38

I think people have deliberately and willfully misunderstood me. I most definitely did not say that Mrs McCann was like Harold Shipman.

I was basically saying that the only GP who could conceivably have come into contact with six dead bodies was Shipman. Most people die in hospital these days, so it's hospital Drs who usually have the contact.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:29:01

MintChocAddict said that posters where pm'ing new facts so I was asking what those new facts where

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:29:58

*were

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 21:30:30

The pj/pt files do say the McCanns had something to do with it. That's why I find it so distasteful - the McCann's were accused b the PJ. They were told by their lawyer to plead guilty to get a lesser sentence - they refused because they knew that would call off the search for Madeleine.

FFS.

I'm not an advocate of the British press, far from it, and have great sympathy for the Portuguese people and how they have been portrayed by certain tabloids.

However I still don't feel the need to read case files, statements and the like.
To repeat, the only people/person who knows what happened are those who were there, and at this point in time we still have no idea who that is.

I just don't understand the point of sharing internet site information/ case files unless you are trying to play amateur detective. That's all. confused

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 21:34:00

Its more about how the British press have been reporting the case

Absolutely Anya. I don't see much speculation going on. The British Press have said one thing, the Portuguese another. Andy Redwood, in charge of Scotland Yard's investigation said the other week that Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive, which was reported in the press. If he is on record as saying this, then that is not speculation.

If the PJ's investigation came to certain conclusions that is what they found, not speculation. They could all be right or wrong, we don't know and may never know.

Anya,
What I meant by that was that up thread people were told to google a name of an acquaintance of the McCann's and to read their statement. This was clearly new information to many on here as a few have stated shock and amazement by what they read.
That is what I meant by sharing of new facts, in that they were new to some posters.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:34:57

So the police who investigated think that the macans did have something to do it? Why is that distasteful?

Deux Fri 09-May-14 21:35:45

I just wanted to be better informed as it seemed I'd been misinformed and there was a whole lot of spin.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:36:00

Oh right, thanks mintchocaddict

nomorequotes Fri 09-May-14 21:36:11

What is wrong with wanting to know the details of a case? Why is it considered a negative thing? Its like when someone tells you you are 'so opinionated' well is it preferable to have no opinion on anything? Is it better to have an uneducated opinion?

Very strange.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 21:36:23

There is lots of talk about the pistorouis case too and you either think one thing or the other and I think it's the same here. I read Kate's book and I also knew 2 people who were working on this case at the start and my whole viewpoint on it comes from that. I have followed it a bit I suppose because of those connections nothing else. There is nothing you can do about how you interpret the facts of a case as high profile as this. I heard a whole table in a restaurant this weekend discuss oping the oscar pistorius case and they were very divided too

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 21:36:52

Because they tried to put the blame on them, and didn't investigate the abduction. Because the abduction would have looked worse for them - better to pin it on the parents.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:38:06

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 21:36:52
Because they tried to put the blame on them, and didn't investigate the abduction. Because the abduction would have looked worse for them - better to pin it on the parents.

What makes you say that?

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 21:38:46

He abduction would have looked worse for who? They did investigate it otherwise there wouldn't be files and files of information which the mccanns have been. Trying to access for years

nomorequotes Fri 09-May-14 21:39:17

how is it libelous to use the term 'disappeared' instead of 'abducted' but NOT libelous to suggest the entire of the Portuguese police some how orchestrated a situation where the parents were implicated? Some serious double standards there.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 21:39:25

Kate McCann's book.

The PJ files.

Amaral's theory.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 21:39:37

No one is forcing you to read anything Mint, that's entirely your prerogative - I am naturally very curious and when arguably the biggest missing person case in recent history happens virtually on your doorstep, in a location you know very well, when people you know are involved, when your home town is mentioned in connection with the case - you cannot help but be interested

When those same people and places are unfairly attacked in the media and casually verbally abused, repeatedly, for 7 years, you want to stand up for them and show up the xenophobic bullies - that's all.

MNHQ thankswinecake

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 21:41:02

They were told by their lawyer to plead guilty to get a lesser sentence - they refused because they knew that would call off the search for Madeleine.

Sabrina - you don't know that. That is what our Press have told you. Do you know Portuguese Law? I don't, but I am pretty sure it's not as shown on US crime series where they have plea bargaining. I don't think we have it in this country either, but I am not a lawyer.

That is what bedevils this case: a child apparently vanishes in thin air, and it seems impossible to establish any concrete facts about what happened.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 21:43:46

It's what she was told by her lawyer. If someone admits to hiding their child's body (which was what they were asking her to do) - then they're not going to follow lines of enquiry into abduction are they?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 21:44:19

There is no plea bargaining in Portugal - the PJ cannot offer any kind of deal, it just doesn't happen. They might explain the options and penalties but they have no authority to offer deals

Joules68 Fri 09-May-14 21:44:33

costa which of the McCann friends statement should I read? Can't pm you

ExcuseTypos Fri 09-May-14 21:44:52

Also, you're not going to admit to something you didn't do.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:44:59

But why would an abduction look worse? Why wouldn't they follow all leads they had at the time?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to know the details of a case per se.
I just find it all a bit odd the lengths people go to. Reading pages and pages of evidence and statements etc of a case you have no real connection with/ proper knowledge of.

We're not going to agree obviously, but to me it's a bit like slowing down for a look at the site of a car crash and speculating as to what might have caused it.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 21:45:52

I think you have the wrong poster Joules - I didn't suggest that

MrRedAndBlue Fri 09-May-14 21:46:40

sabrina - the point of telling people about the police files is that it proves just how much time, money and effort was put into the investigation. The sheer amount of work undertaken by the PJ is quite staggering and I think its ridiculous to suggest that they never considered the possibility of abduction - in fact, the reality is that the PJ have never ruled out abduction.

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 21:46:44

The uk police turned up and suggested they look closer to the family rather than going down the abduction route. So UK brought dogs in. There was no evidence of abduction even uk police have said that and the mccanns said there was only a tiny opportunity but they thought the room and the window etc suggested she was abducted. .

Joules68 Fri 09-May-14 21:46:52

Tbh, the theory that Madeleine didn't leave the apartment alive could explain the dogs reactions. Blood/cadaver scent both being detected....but is the cadaver scent present immediately at the point of death or a while later?

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 21:47:14

But when you do have a real connection with it, and know that it is being misrepresented in the UK media and 'spun' to something unrecognisable?

I think I'm going to be stepping away from this for now. I disagree with the suggestion that discussing the publicly known facts of the PJ investigation is speculation, when all I am doing is correcting people who only have the xenophobic red top version.

Out of pure curiousity, at what point would it be okay to post on mn about discrepencies in this one case? Arrest? Trial? Guilty verdict? Never? Because people have discussed other cases before the trial, without being hounded upon like this.

Anyway. <flounce>

nomorequotes Fri 09-May-14 21:47:57

I find it odder to formulate a really quite passionate opinion about something you have not researched. Why do people slow down to look at car crashes? Maybe because that make biological sense? Don't make the same mistake?

I think you can either see things as normal aspects of human nature or as something negative.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:48:59

Yy Costa, the way its implied that the police can only follow one line of enquiry at a time is pretty insulting

noddyholder Fri 09-May-14 21:50:10

There is far more evidence of the PT theory and Leicester police than for abduction so it's not surprising there is speculation at times like this. No finger prints or any DNA at all in the apartment not even the child's hence Gerry retuning to the uk to get madeleines hairbrush and pillow. No one knows but people talk.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 21:50:31

There's a lot that's pretty insulting really but I'm used to it now

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 21:50:39

Come on - if were guilty of having disposed of your daughter's body - and I don't deny that happens - but you're hardly likely to badger the PM to have the case re-opened are you?

You'd let sleeping dogs lie, as it were. They want to know what happened to her - because they don't know at present.

nomorequotes Fri 09-May-14 21:52:40

there are other theories as to why the systematic opening of the case happens Sabrina.

The crime watch programme co-inciding completely with the release of Kates book for example.

Despite actually having no new evidence at all.

CatsCantTwerk Fri 09-May-14 21:53:16

Sabrina is your surname McCann?

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 21:55:05

But Sabrina, the same could be said why badger the pm but sit on a efit that could help the search which Scotland yard had to ask for?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 21:55:24

CatsCanttwerk - is yours Amaral?

nomorequotes
I'd suggest that many people slow down at car crashes out of morbid curiosity. (Particularly if on the other side of the road)

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 21:56:10

Actually, perhaps costa's is Amaral wink

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 21:58:17

Do you mean the early Crimewatch, nomorequotes? Not the one last October, which wasn't even filmed in Portugal, and told us absolutely nothing new. Well, except that the man Jane Tanner saw had now mysteriously, after 6 1/2 years absence, come forward, and he was carrying a child back from the night creche, so it wasn't him after all.

LaVolcan Fri 09-May-14 21:59:27

I think people slow down at car crashes because they realise that it could have been them, so better ease of the gas.

Joules68 Fri 09-May-14 22:01:07

A lot of people like history.... Research it/read books/ look at files etc

This is recent history

cherabel Fri 09-May-14 22:01:56

Can someone show some stats on how reliable cadaver dogs are, especially after a considerable passage of time?

This American case throws considerable doubt on their reliability:

"Zapata, 68, was charged with first-degree murder last year after the dogs indicated they sniffed human remains in a small basement "crawl space" at the former family home in Madison and other properties linked to him.

But Dane County Judge Patrick Fiedler ruled last month that the evidence that led to the charge could not be put before the jury.

He said the dogs were too unreliable in detecting the odour of remains and noted that no remains were actually found.

The judge agreed with an analysis of the three dogs' track record by Zapata's defence team that found they were INCORRECT 78 per cent, 71 per cent and 62 per cent of the time."

According to the Wisconsin State Journal, Mr Fiedler told the court: "The state has failed to convince me that it's any more reliable than the flip of a coin." Zapata denies murder, and the jury in the case went out on Friday to start considering its verdict.

A source close to the McCanns' solicitors said: "The legal team are in touch with the lawyers who represented the defendant in the case.

www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

Disagree La Volcan
Why do some some people stand in the street watching someone at the edge of a tall building.
Same thing.

Anyway, bowing out now. Everyone is entitled to their view. Just hope there are some answers for all those close to the case sooner rather than later.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 22:05:48

I read that cadaver dogs are only correct around 30% of the time when a body is no longer in situ, and that they are not generally seen as 'admissible' evidence on court, but merely to help police in an investigation.

When a body is still in situ, they reliability increases immensely.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 22:07:37

Zapata later pleaded guilty and confessed the body had been where the dogs signalled

www.charleyproject.org/cases/z/zapata_jeanette.html

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 22:09:48

In 2005, investigators called Eugene, who had remarried and moved to Nevada in 1997, and questioned him. The following day, Eugene cleared out a storage locker which he had rented in 2001. Police searched the locker with cadaver dogs a short time later. The dogs again detected the scent of human remains, and they also indicated the presence of human remains in the attic and crawl space of the Zapata residence, and in a vehicle Eugene rented during a visit to Wisconsin in 2004. During his trip to Wisconsin, he purchased trash bags, some large containers and cleaning supplies and visited the Juneau County Solid Waste Landfill; records indicate he dropped off items weighing 60 pounds. A search of the landfill turned up no clues, but the cadaver dogs again indicated the odor of human decomposition.

In August 2006, Eugene was charged with first-degree murder in connection with Jeanette's presumed death. He was tried for her murder in September 2007. The jury deliberated for 30 hours, but was unable to reach a verdict, and a mistrial was declared. In February 2008, Eugene made a plea arrangement with prosecutors. He pleaded guilty to reckless homicide in Jeanette's death and admitted he had "snapped" during an argument about their divorce. He stated he hit her on the head with a paperweight and he strangled her to death, then dumped her body in a rural area east of Madison. Eugene explained that later he had purchased land in Juneau County, Wisconsin, moved Jeanette's remains there, and buried them. The body stayed there until 2001, when Eugene moved to Nevada. He placed the body in his storage locker at that time, only retrieving it when the police questioned him in 2005. Then he dismembered Jeanette's body, wrapped the pieces in plastic bags and put them in a dumpster at the Juneau County Landfill.

Eugene was sentenced to the maximum of five years in prison for reckless homicide. He had to be sentenced according to the laws in 1976. With time off for good behavior, he could be freed in as little as three years and one month. He also agreed to pay his daughter Linda $5,000 in restitution for the expenses related to Jeanette's death. In spite of his confession, Eugene later stated he only pleaded guilty to avoid a second trial. His second wife and two of his three children with Jeanette still believe he is innocent. Linda, who was ten years old in 1976 and came to believe her father is guilty, is no longer on speaking terms with the rest of the family.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 22:10:54

Aren't dogs bloody clever!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 22:11:48

That must mean the McCanns are then....

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 22:12:19

*guilty then

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 22:13:01

Yes Anya I have four.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 22:14:06

I just have a dd who likes to think she is a dog!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 22:14:58

I have a dog too. I love him.

Again. As i said upthread, the dogs found dna in the apartment, not just "the scent". Dna was sent to uk for processing, and they (the uk lab, bugger all to do with inept portugese) contaminated the tiny sample and it was useless.

EffectiveCommunication Fri 09-May-14 22:18:58

So what was behind the sofa and places like that? Was that sniffed by the Dogs to be blood? Can they smell where someone has cut a knee and a plaster fell down the back of the sofa?

cherabel Fri 09-May-14 22:20:36

No-one is disputing that sniffer dogs are clever. Where are the stats on their reliability as evidence? Particularly in a case where so much time had passed. It's no good just quoting random cases.
You seem to hold them up as the key piece of evidence against the McCanns when it seems flimsy at best.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 22:20:52

Blood found by forensics in the apartment was found not to be Madeleine's, right at the beginning of the investigation.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 22:21:20

Effective all your questions would be answered by reading the files - the blood dog signals blood the cadaver dog signals cadaver, they both alerted behind the sofa but read it for yourself or watch the video - it's also available online

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 22:22:59

But you brought up the Zapata case cherabel, not me? I'm not quoting random cases - I'm pointing out that they were correct in the Zapata case

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 22:23:23

Sorry, was just musing about dogs and how the can be trained, the dead, blood, people, drugs, bombs, money.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 22:24:15

If you watch the video you'll see that Almaral believes the McCann's "regularly using" Calpol was something suspicious -he speculated that they used Calpol to make her sleep. We know different, I think.

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 22:24:16

And guide dogs, epilepsy dogs, disabled helper dogs - they're just amazing

EffectiveCommunication Fri 09-May-14 22:25:52

Those files are thousands of pages long confused and people are quoting all this dog stuff, I thought you knew what you were all talking about and I don't get straight answers.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 22:26:24

Didn't there used to be a calpol night, it was a bit like medised?

Yy Costa, there have also been dogs trained to smell cancer! Amazing!

Costacoffeeplease Fri 09-May-14 22:28:06

Because as I said near the top of the thread - I'm not getting into specifics - there is a lot of info online but be specific with your google terms and you will find the information more easily - as my teachers used to say, it will mean more to you if you find it yourself - I won't be accused of leading you or spinning the info

MrRedAndBlue Fri 09-May-14 22:29:03

Adrian Prout - murdered his wife in gloucestershire November 2007 and was convicted in January 2010 despite her body never being found.

There were no traces of blood, or signs of a struggle, but the cadaver dog (Eddiec- one of the dogs used in the McCann case) indicated to police that a dead body had been in the living room.

Gloucestershire Constabulary drew together a mass of circumstantial evidence that pointed to Prout having strangled his wife with his bare hands and burying her body.

Always protested his innocence and claimed to have been set up.

In 2011 he finally confessed to her murder and her body was eventually found in nearby woodland.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 22:29:18

The dog who "smelled cancer" on This Morning was discredited - but I do agree that dogs are amazing things.

The McCanns used calpol - not medised. Medised, I think, is not even on sale any more for small children. I'd never heard of it before MN.

nomorequotes Fri 09-May-14 22:31:50

Unfortunately there are no straight answers. The only straight answer would be what happened to her and nobody knows that.

Calpol night is not the same as normal calpol

www.netdoctor.co.uk/aches-and-pains/medicines/calpol-night.html

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 22:33:06

Again, MyRed - is evidence that "some other guy did it" evidence that the McCann's did?

Cadaver dogs are useful in investigations are useful, but not infallible. They are not an iron-cast indication of guilt. Don't you think that the McCanns would've just STFU if they were guilty? The case was closed until they campaigned to re-open it.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 22:33:58

No but calpol did their own version called calpol night iirc, it was the same just made by calpol

m.netdoctor.co.uk/aches-and-pains/medicines/calpol-night.html

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 09-May-14 22:34:01

Do you know they used calpol night?

MrMcGintysGoat Fri 09-May-14 22:35:42

Where is the proof that they campaigned to reopen the case Sabrina?

AnyaKnowIt Fri 09-May-14 22:35:49

Then people should be saying that they must be hiding something as they are not out looking?

By the way, medised not being for sale now is irrelevant anyway.

Your words sabrina...

If you watch the video you'll see that Almaral believes the McCann's "regularly using" Calpol was something suspicious -he speculated that they used Calpol to make her sleep.

At the time there was a calpol product on the market that helped with sleep. Its not a huge leap to think that is what he meant, is it?