Is England not shitting itself Scotland becomes independent cos then they will have the tories FOREVER

(222 Posts)
ssd Wed 05-Feb-14 08:15:23

Its a thought isnt it....

DC must be rubbing his hands, get rid of those bloody labour voters in Scotland and we;ll be in gov forever!!!!

Trills Wed 05-Feb-14 08:18:08

England and Scotland are not the only countries you know.

ssd Wed 05-Feb-14 08:19:44

ok so Wales and NI are shitting themselves too

ivykaty44 Wed 05-Feb-14 08:22:37

I am worried more about Scotland getting independence and then failing and expecting Wales northern Ireland and England to bail them out

Or them keeping the pound as currency and it being tied to our pound I the rest of UK and Scotland moaning about it being set to high

I don't think though whatever happens the Scots will be happy and no doubt about it England will get the blame

Thewhingingdefective Wed 05-Feb-14 08:22:54

I'll move to Scotland.

Isitmebut Wed 05-Feb-14 11:36:54

Labour has itself to blame if Scotland goes independent, keep feeding them power and more £thousands per head per year than English citizens, to keep them voting Labour – yet the Conservatives, are trying to keep a United Kingdom to do what is right for the UK and the Queen, what does that say about both Labour and the Conservatives?

Especially when thanks to Labours boundary changes, the Conservatives need to be several points ahead in the polls to achieve a small parliamentary majority.

But is the good news that we’ll have less Scottish MP’s screwing up England, which due to the extent of the damage, they must be getting their own back for The Highland Clearances and other English deeds of oppression.

And where is the current PAID MP for Kirkcaldy and Cowldenbeath, a certain Mr Gordon Brown, who knows, but he is never in parliament answering for his administration, and even DENIES that he is still an MP to captive audiences.
www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/gordon-brown-im-an-ex-politician.1383153916

HollyHB Wed 05-Feb-14 13:36:49

I returned to live in Yorkshire after decades overseas. Frankly, the state of England today is a little shocking, it never was exactly wonderful, but not like this.

Scotland is looking to me better than England in lots of ways. Especially for families. So I too will seriously think about moving there. If Scotland becomes independently successful I can see Wales wanting to leave UK and merge with Scotland. Even fewer Labour votes for England.

As to Labour versus Conservatives they seem to me to be all tarred with the same brush. They have far far more in common politically than divides them. Not even slightly like the Labour Party of Clement Attlee or for that matter Harold Wilson.

Isitmebut Wed 05-Feb-14 14:34:53

"As to Labour versus Conservatives they seem to me to be all tarred with the same brush. They have far far more in common politically than divides them. Not even slightly like the Labour Party of Clement Attlee or for that matter Harold Wilson."

Ideologically you could not be more wrong, and the Conservative policies of 1997 versus what Labour introduced after, i.e. bigger expensive government, immigration, on private and state pensions, higher taxation for all to pay for it AFTER the 2010 general election etc etc, proves it.

gelati3 Wed 05-Feb-14 14:40:15

The reason Scotland joined up with England is that it was bankrupt.

And guess who wrote a letter of support to "Fred the Shred" just before RBS took over ABM Ambro (which was one of the major causes of the bank's downfall). Yup, Alex Salmond. Scotland would have been in the poo had they been independent at that time. Unfortunately, the Scottish Parliament (you may have heard of the fiasco over the cost) is full of inferior politicians. They don't have a clue when it comes to the economy.

MothratheMighty Wed 05-Feb-14 14:42:23

Surely the people get the government the majority vote for?
And I agree that you can't tell the difference between the major parties, their policies or their ethics.

territt Wed 05-Feb-14 14:59:17

Hopefully they will go independent and then the English don't have to keep paying for them, Keep the tories in as long as possible, we need to get rid of the debt and make people work for a living.

Bowlersarm Wed 05-Feb-14 15:01:57

If England is shitting itself because it is scared it will have a permanent conservative government, then England should not worry. England will get the government that England votes for. What's to worry about?

mummymeister Wed 05-Feb-14 15:14:44

if Scotland votes for independence then that is their decision and I wouldn't object. just so long as they have their own currency and border controls with no comeback if it all goes feet up. If they decide to cut loose from the Union then it should be a complete and clean break.

ivykaty44 Wed 05-Feb-14 15:19:45

What will happen about immigration?

Will Scotland apply to join eu ? Which would then mean free movement

What will happen about immigration?

We just won't let you in. Simple wink

MannishBoy Wed 05-Feb-14 15:30:44

You mean there aren't any Labour / Lib Dem voters in England? I had no idea!

Lollypop1983 Wed 05-Feb-14 15:37:18

I don't think Scotland will vote for independence. Let face it : Alec salmond isn't someone that people would rush to put their trust in. I don't think he has a strong enough plan for an independent Scotland. There are so many questions unanswered.

As for labour vs Tories....they are as bad as each other. They have their good policies and their bad....they are just different parties.

ivykaty44 Wed 05-Feb-14 15:39:05

Is that you will not let Scots into England?

diabolo Wed 05-Feb-14 15:41:15

I'm quite looking forward to labour losing a significant portion of its voters. Agree with the poster above. England will get the government that England votes for. Only fair surely?

ivykaty44 Wed 05-Feb-14 15:42:28

It will be interesting to see what happens over Scottish university place and whether Scotland get fined for discrimination over English students being charged

leavesalmondoutofit Wed 05-Feb-14 15:52:20

*****We Scots Are Voting For Independence, Not Alex Salmond And Not A Political Party*****

Happy days scary times, yes lots of blanks that's the exciting bit grin.

Mum2Tigers Wed 05-Feb-14 15:58:56

If the Scots votes for independence, why can't the English (and Wales & NI) vote the Scots out of the GBP? IYSWIM... It doesn't seem fair that Scotland wants nothing to do with the rest of us, except keep the "best" bits, having the cake and eating it? If they want independence, do it without Sterling.

Anatana Wed 05-Feb-14 16:04:20

If the Scots go independent, do you think they will let the North come too? I'd rather go with them!

ivykaty44 Wed 05-Feb-14 16:07:49

Would the UK like to be told by the rest of the EU you can only leave if we all get to vote? No let Scotland vote on this matter and then get on with it whatever the outcome, they have a choice.

I do hope though they don't blame England when it goes wrong whether they stay or go

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 16:24:21

What a lot of misunderstandings there are on this thread. The vote is yes or no, not Salmond (who, btw, has the highest approval rating of any current politician, with Nicola a close second) or Cameron (whose approval ratings are in the minuses). A currency union is logical and sensible, and that's agreed by just about everyone including the Bank of England. There will be no border control, just as there is no border control between UK and Ireland. We Scots will remain in the EU, and English students will get the same free tertiary education as the rest of the EU - at least until Cameron hauls rUK out.

Exciting times indeed. Just off to make mince and tatties for tea. grin

colette Wed 05-Feb-14 16:28:22

Ivykaty44 - I can see a theme emerging in your posts hmm

'I am worried more about Scotland getting independence and then failing'

'I don't think though whatever happens the Scots will be happy and no doubt about it England will get the blame'

'I do hope though they don't blame England when it goes wrong whether they stay or go'

'It will be interesting to see what happens over Scottish university place and whether Scotland get fined for discrimination over English students being charged'

MothratheMighty Wed 05-Feb-14 16:32:19

I'm all for it, exciting times. Mt Scots family members are sure that it is something they want for their country, and that a continued alliance is not, so I think that all residents should get the chance to make decisions for their own country. Like adults.
It may be rough, and there will be negatives to overcome, but that is the nature of change.
England gets blamed for the legacy of colonialism all the time, so it will be just one more name on the list.

Shesparkles Wed 05-Feb-14 16:38:56

Exciting times?? I'm Scottish living in Scotland and shiting ma breeks in case of a yes vote!
I know it's not about Salmond (although I think it's about time someone told him that) but to be this close to the referendum and not sorted out such basics as currency is ridiculous

ivykaty44 Wed 05-Feb-14 16:39:19

Colette yes I am worried that England somehow will be blamed but perhaps that is due to it happening for the last three hundred years and I can't quite believe it will stop if we part company and if we don't part company and a no vote is reached will the Scots really be happy to stay?

colette Wed 05-Feb-14 16:48:00

ivykaty44 - not sure about the last 300 years ! But if they are independent and it is not working out well for Scotland don't see how they can blame England.. and don't think they will.

ivykaty44 Wed 05-Feb-14 16:54:38

Colette possibly if they keep the pound and this makes there costs high, at the moment there is no news on which currency they are going to use

If they have problems with the north sea oil, then again I can see this being a big concern as it is so complicated

There are a few other issues I can see being a problem

Its a love hate relationship

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 17:03:51

We will be using the pound sterling, there is no doubt about that, rUK can't afford for us not to. As for oil, there is massive investment going in to the new Kraken fields to the north, and, once shot of Trident, potentially huge reserves off the Ayrshire coast. It's not going to run out in my lifetime.

WildThong Wed 05-Feb-14 17:21:11

Threads like this always bring out anti Scottish or anti English comments, nasty and divisive, maybe that's the pointhmm
We pay for you
No we subsidise you 'cos of the oil
It's all the fault of the big bad English
Those Scots are always moaning and blaming us for everything
Pathetic tit for tat, na na na na na
I'm Scottish and British and hope to remain so btw

WooWooOwl Wed 05-Feb-14 17:32:52

I'm English, and I can safely say I'm not shitting myself about the prospect of Scotland becoming in dependant. Not even a little bit.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 05-Feb-14 17:37:50

The FT has been running a serious of articles about Independence. There are some good graphics:

www.ft.com/cms/s/2/5b5ec2ca-8a67-11e3-ba54-00144feab7de.html#slide0

"If its geographic share of UK oil and gas output is taken into account, Scotland’s GDP per head is bigger than that of France. Even excluding the North Sea’s hydrocarbon bounty, per capita GDP is higher than that of Italy. Oil, whisky and a broad range of manufactured goods mean an independent Scotland would be one of the world’s top 35 exporters.
An independent Scotland could also expect to start with healthier state finances than the rest of the UK. Although Scotland enjoys public spending well above the UK average – a source of resentment among some in England, Wales and Northern Ireland – the cost to the Treasury is more than outweighed by oil and gas revenues from Scottish waters."

Pimpf Wed 05-Feb-14 17:41:46

Oh ink the English (and welsh and Irish) should also get the vote, after all its a union, can't we decide who is in the union. Salmons missed a trick on that one!

HopeClearwater Wed 05-Feb-14 17:46:55

Of course people aren't shitting themselves about it. They're hardly aware of it. Politics is too much like hard work when you've got more important things to do like watch Strictly and I'm a Jungle-something-or-other.

[sarcasm]

TheBeautifulVisit Wed 05-Feb-14 17:52:29

It will be good for both countries to get the leader they vote for.

Besides if the vote is 'no', perhaps Cameron intends to offer England, Wales and NI a referendum to ask if we want to divorce Scotland.

LeonardoAcropolis Wed 05-Feb-14 17:56:14

oldladyknows nothing has the issue of independent Scotland's membership of the EU been clarified? I'm not very up to date with this and I was under the impression that it would have to reapply (and Spain might object etc).

Isitmebut Wed 05-Feb-14 17:56:26

Talking of misunderstandings, what does Salmond or anyone elses approval rating to do with anything?

Brown running the UK had New Labour majorities of over 100 seats each election, but he still screwed up - and if Cameron sorting out has minus ratings, what does that objectively tell you exactly?

I think the Scots should go back to the Groat or whatever else they had as a currency - independence means exactly that, yes or no, no cherry picking.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 18:01:10

We cannot be certain re EU because UK Gvt refuse to ask the question. However, it is likely that we'll stay in the EU because we are already members, fully compliant re H&S, employment laws etc, and an expansionist state won't want to lose 5 million members, when our country is a net contributor. Spain is grumbling because of the Catalan situation, but they won't want to lose access to our fishing grounds.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 18:02:11

I mentioned approval ratings because a pp said he's not liked or trusted.

TheBeautifulVisit Wed 05-Feb-14 18:05:31

i don't really understand why Scotland want independence. What is it they feel constrained by, what do they want to do differently?

TheBeautifulVisit Wed 05-Feb-14 18:07:41

Salmond is likely to be an independent Scotland's first Prime Minister, in the event of a yes vote isn't he?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 18:08:26

Tbh, most Scots don't want indy, we'd have preferred some form of DevoMax. But that's not on offer, so it's a yes from me. (And the way this campaign is being conducted by no, that just gets more fixed every day.)

MothratheMighty Wed 05-Feb-14 18:08:31

How much Scottish history do you know, Visit?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 18:09:51

I think it's likely to be an SNP Gvt after we vote yes, but rumour has it Eck wants to stand down and spend more time with his wife. She's a good bit older than him...

NiceTabard Wed 05-Feb-14 18:10:13

I must admit it had crossed my mind.

Scotland & the attitude and approach of the Scots & their govts has always meshed more closely with what seems to me a better, more caring yet still pragmatic society.

If I were a scot I'd be voting to leave.

It's Westminster withholding the option to have a debate over things like the use of the pound in a Independent Scotland. The recent speech given but the head of the Bank of England (a misnomer, it's really the bank of the UK and Scotland currently has a stake in it) suggested that a currency union isn't such a bad thing. What he said was welcomed by the yes and no. Campaigns.

The better together campaign is based of fuelling the fear. Most of their statements have been swiftly refuted by the Yes campaign.

Until DC and his cronies actually try to convince me with hard facts and proper debate, I am a yes, and will stay a yes.

And the previous poster who said it was exciting, it is exciting. We have a chance to be governed by a parliament that we actually vote for. Salmons is everyone's cup of tea, but he has only a few years of politics left. A yes vote is permanent. If we don't vote yes now, all we are doing is giving Westminster the go ahead to shaft us for the rest of history.

We can be an independent nation.

PenguinsDontEatKale Wed 05-Feb-14 18:19:34

Devo max isn't on offer because that realistically needs a full UK referendum.

if your partner says they are leaving you, not much you can do. If they want to totally renegotiate the terms of your relationship, you both get a say.

I have no strong political opinions on independence, but I do on devo max being offered without a say being given to other countries of the union.

SantanaLopez Wed 05-Feb-14 18:27:20

Most of their statements have been swiftly refuted by the Yes campaign.

As have most of the Yes campaign by the No!

I don't think it's independence. It's swapping Westminster for BoE and hopefully the EU.

I actually think, if Labour get their act in gear they can be our first government. Scotland are/were a labour strong hold. All our big hitting MPs will come back unemployed from Westminster and we will actually have some decent candidates to choose from.

Show me something Better Together have published that is actually factually correct, as in will actually happen after a yes vote, and I will happily withdraw my previous statement

scottishmummy Wed 05-Feb-14 18:32:48

What a lame op trying hard to be provocative.but merely looking thick

SantanaLopez Wed 05-Feb-14 18:33:26

Show me a Yes campaign one!

It's all guesswork.

Exactly, better together = status quo

I'm ready for a change

SantanaLopez Wed 05-Feb-14 18:36:05

Actually I can give you one- DH's firm are leaving in the case of a Yes vote.

I think it's too much of a gamble.

My firm are investing in Scotland, and are openly backing a Yes vote. This is a Fste 100 company.

It's narrow minded to say all business will run.

SantanaLopez Wed 05-Feb-14 18:45:15

It's narrow minded to say that they all will stay and they all will profit, which let's face it, is the important thing.

.... We could do this all night.

TheBeautifulVisit Wed 05-Feb-14 18:50:38

GlaikitFizzog - what's the name of the FTSE100 company backing a yes vote?

TheBeautifulVisit Wed 05-Feb-14 18:53:30

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/feb/29/scottish-independence-weir-group

Weir Group and SSE (Scottish and Southern Energy) have come out for No, we are Better Together Darling camp.

I haven't heard of a FTSE 100 coming out in favour of yes.

TheBeautifulVisit Wed 05-Feb-14 18:53:41
SantanaLopez Wed 05-Feb-14 18:59:24

There's only 6 FTSE 100 up here, aren't there? RBS, Weir, Aggreko, Cairn Energy, Standard Life.... what's the other one?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 19:01:09

That article is two years old, and doesn't say they'll leave. With the oil industry expansion, Weir aren't likely to shut up shop.

Ok, I may have misunderstood what I read a month or so ago. The company hasn't but our former CEO has. My mistake, I take it back.

We aren't any of those companies, we are a uk wide company, not soley Scottish, but if you think I'm telling you who I work for, nah! Not outing myself like that.

I for one would not fear for my job in the event of a yes vote

SantanaLopez Wed 05-Feb-14 19:05:44

Weir apparently supported Cable in June 2013, more recently, Old Lady.

'The Weir Group, one of the world’s leading engineering firms, yesterday praised the report and said its business benefits from the UK’s single market.'

theborg Wed 05-Feb-14 19:10:24

I want to know what happens!
If Scotland goes independent will free movement across the border change?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 19:14:01

Normally I have great respect for Cable.

SantanaLopez Wed 05-Feb-14 19:17:07

theborg

the White Paper: 255. Will independence mean that Scottish people require a passport to travel to England?

No. Just as no one from the UK needs a passport to travel to Ireland now, there will be free movement across the border between Scotland and England.

The Common Travel Area has existed since the 1920s and currently allows freedom of movement for nationals of the UK, the Republic of Ireland, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. It will be in the interests of all partners for an independent Scotland to remain in the Common Travel Area.

However, there's an issue with the Schengen agreement and the rest of the EU member states over the borders. The majority would have to agree that Scotland could opt out from Schengen and join the EU to ensure no border controls.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 19:17:10

Theborg, if you believe Better Together, the borders will be totally closed, a wall built and patrolled 24/7 by the SAS and ravening werewolves. I don't believe them. grin

theborg Wed 05-Feb-14 19:19:59

grin oldlady
Thanks Santana

If they vote yes how long would it actually be before they make changes and the UK separated officially?

Oldlady, been howling at the moon recently?? <awrrrrooooooo>

SantanaLopez Wed 05-Feb-14 19:22:48

Independence Day would be 24 March 2016. I am not sure how quickly you'd start seeing changes. Maybe by the next new tax year?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 19:23:19

Indepence Day will be 24 March 2016.

SantanaLopez Wed 05-Feb-14 19:24:28

Are you that confident, OldLady?! grin

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 19:24:39

X post. Howling? Me? No, just my pet werewolf. grin

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 19:25:19

(I've started a breeding operation, good business op.)

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 05-Feb-14 19:26:14

Yes, I really am that confident.

ExcuseTypos Wed 05-Feb-14 19:29:22

I'm English but loved in Scoltand form the ages of 11 -21

I'm not shitting myself about Scottish independence.

I'm just glad the vote is happening, then whichever way it goes, all the moaning (which has been going on for a very, very long time) from the independent voters, will hopefully stop.

ExcuseTypos Wed 05-Feb-14 19:30:22

By "moaning" I mean blaming the English for all their ills.

amicissimma Thu 06-Feb-14 21:46:36

Is it wrong of me to quite fancy, if Scotland does leave, the rest of the country being called 'Former UK' (as in Former Yugoslavia), rather than 'Rest of UK'?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Thu 06-Feb-14 21:52:32

Yes, it is very, very wrong. grin

F.Uk? Yup perfectly fine! grin

amicissimma Thu 06-Feb-14 21:54:53

Ah. You spotted it!

TalkinPeace Thu 06-Feb-14 22:04:10

Scotland will have to apply to join the EU.
Spain will actively block it because they do not want Basque or Catalan independence.
If Scotland is NOT in the EU then lots of the assumptions go deeply pear shaped.

The way things are going the uk won't be in the eu for much longer.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Thu 06-Feb-14 22:09:44

According to various antis, we'll both be chucked out of the EU (we won't, for reasons I explained earlier) and have to adopt the Euro. <yawn> Oh, yeah, and Russia's gonna invade, and Westminster will bomb our airports... Meanwhile, there's to be 100000 folk joining hands on Hadrian's Wall (which isn't actually the border) to tell us how much we are loved.

A wee bit of consistency would be nice.

Old lady, I think I love you grin

OldLadyKnowsNothing Thu 06-Feb-14 23:54:02

Thanks, Glaikit, I may spend too much time on alt media... Like, Wings, and Newsnet and Bella, not to forget National Collective... much more informative than MSM.

I follow wings, I don't agree with everything he posts mind, I will check the others out!

I might be evil and email the links to my pro union dad! He thinks I'm a yea just to spite him!

Dromedary Fri 07-Feb-14 00:01:21

Yes, very worried about this prospect. Especially with Labour deciding to chuck the unions so they will be financially bankrupt for ever.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 07-Feb-14 00:11:20

Glaikit, have you seen the Tommy Sheridan speech? Available on youtube, can't link because I'm on my iPad, but a youtube search of "Tommy Sheridan independence" finds it. I'm in two minds about Tommy, used to think he was brilliant (re poll tax etc), went off him over the swinging scandal, but he's still an amazing orator, and the Kirkcaldy speech is converting people every day.

Dromedary, if you're worried about the op, be reassured that there have been only two General Elections in the past 60-100 years (sorry, late at night, will find the figures tomorrow if you're interested) when Scottish votes have had any influence over the outcome of the WM. Us becoming indy means that we get the gvt we vote for, but so do r/fuk! If you don't want a Tory gvt, don't vote for one.

See I cannot abide tommy Sheridan, but he does have the gift of the gab. I'll take a look, tomorrow!

I'm off to bed!

OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 07-Feb-14 00:16:10

"outcome of the WM" = Westminster Gvt.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 07-Feb-14 00:20:31

Night, Glaiket, sleep well. Know what you mean about Tommy, he's like Marmite. But I tweeted that I'd love to see him and George Galloway debate indyref (because I really would, two passionate, articulate orators with totally opposed views, how amazing would that be?!). Tommy followed me, George blocked me! So Tommy gets plus points there...

MillyMollyMama Fri 07-Feb-14 00:47:46

Some of us English would like a vote too. Do we still want Scotland? Quite a few would say No!

OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 07-Feb-14 01:45:22

Which is fine. In the event we vote no in September, there is nothing stopping English/Welsh/Irish voters demanding a referendum on the subject. But which of your available political parties are offering the same? And have a wee think about why the unionist parties, who insist that Scots are a drain on the rest of the economy, and that we are "subsidy junkies", are so very, very keen to keep us?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 07-Feb-14 01:46:46

Ps, you can have a vote if you move into Scotland before September. There's still time to have your voice heard.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 07-Feb-14 02:18:07

PPS, but your vote, like ours, should be informed, not based on guts or emotion. Do you know what would happen to the economy of rUK if we didn't use the pound?

Isitmebut Fri 07-Feb-14 15:15:31

With the Bank of England having printing around £400 bil via Quantitative Easing (since around 2008), with a so far unquantifiable total effect on the economy known, I’d suggest that a few hundred billion more (or less) if Scotland hands some back, wouldn’t make too much difference – especially if we swap part of it for similar valued Royal Bank of Scotland shares.lol

Actually to reverse QE, the BoE has to sell back the Gilts they bought back into the market, which effectively takes cash out of the financial/banking system. If Scotland pays all the English pounds sterling back to the BoE, they won't have to do so much of that, and keep the Gilts they bought until they mature.

D'oh, gave myself a headache just thinking about that.

Twinklestein Fri 07-Feb-14 15:55:06

I love Scotland - the landscape, the people - and I've always believed in self-determination for small states. I also love Scotland for the fact that they hate the Tories and only have one Tory MP. Why should they be ruled by a government that does not reflect their country's democratic will? They have the chance to be rid of the Tories forever, good luck to them.

It will leave England mahoosively in the shit, but I'm leaving anyway, so I've kinda stopped caring.

Isitmebut Fri 07-Feb-14 16:31:21

Let's do a swap, you hand back the one Tory MP, and you can have all the Labour ones, especially their front bench, who took a perfectly good/growing economy in 1997, and turned it into a basket case by 2010.

I think that would be a fair swap, as why should England keep a political party that has twice handed the Tories an economic basket case in 30 odd years - especially as they get no thanks based on clan type hatred, rather than the facts/events prior to 1979 and 2010?

ShadowOfTheDay Fri 07-Feb-14 17:03:43

It is a sad thing, but most people in England - and there are 53+ million of us - could not give a flying fig for what happens, whenever, to the 5 million odd in Scotland.... sorry...

and I say that as an Englishwoman born of Scottish parents, raised in Scotland (family still there) and living in England.. stuff will still go on pretty much as before for me personally - and for most people living in England - whether it gains independence or not...

Absolutely IsItMeBut! You can even keep Gove wink

Twinklestein Fri 07-Feb-14 18:38:59

If you're taking to me Isitme, I'm English, and have no Scottish forebears whatsoever. But thanks for the assumption that my views must be based of 'clan type hatred' it made me laugh.

I think that would be a fair swap, as why should England keep a political party that has twice handed the Tories an economic basket case in 30 odd years - especially as they get no thanks based on clan type hatred, rather than the facts/events prior to 1979 and 2010?

Not doubt you're aware that a) the Tories presided over a crash in 1987 from which the country did not fully recover until Labour came to power, & b) the financial crisis 2007/8 came out of the financial sector: it was caused by imbalances in the world economy and the banking system plus a fall in world trade, not by the ruling political party of any one country. The crisis would have happened regardless of which party was in power in the UK at the time. The UK, US, Germany and other counties across world, all got bank regulation wrong.

Indeed the UK was as badly affected as it was because the Labour government followed through on Thatcherite economic policies of city deregulation and laissez faire (and remember Osborne was a keen advocate of further banking deregulation in opposition, accusing Labour of being 'too tough'); and because of the size of our financial sector in comparison to manufacturing and other industries, again a result of Tory policy.

FannyFifer Fri 07-Feb-14 18:51:02

Hey fellow Britons you are all meant to be love bombing us & begging us to say!

We won't though as it will be a YES vote in September.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 07-Feb-14 18:55:37

Hey fellow Britons you are all meant to be love bombing us & begging us to say!

YY remember the Olympics! and, er, WWII , that sort of thing.

ShadowOfTheDay Fri 07-Feb-14 19:06:41

Hey fellow Britons you are all meant to be love bombing us & begging us to say

hahahaha... that's only so...

1. it will p off the Scots and MAKE them vote YES because Cameron actually wants rid....
or
2. Cameron can claim it was all down to him and his initiative that Scotland stayed part of the union if they vote NO..

win/win.....

MillyMollyMama Fri 07-Feb-14 19:11:04

So many people want rid of the Tories. They are an endangered species in Scotland anyway. It seems to me that the Yes vote would be condoning a one party state. The Nationalists or who? Labour do not want separation. Who in their right mind votes for a single party in Government forever more? (Yes I can think of a few too, but no-one who is making a fantastic job of Government!).

OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 07-Feb-14 19:21:20

If we vote yes, we can elect any shade of gvt we want. Labour will need to do some major restructuring to regain credibility, but it can be done. We also have Green (Patrick Harvie is brilliant), Tories, LibDems, the SSP, and Margo. Not a one-party state at all. smile

MothratheMighty Fri 07-Feb-14 19:30:16

And if you truly are an OldLady, then like me, you will also remember that you can just make up an entirely new party altogether.
Doesn't have to be just Whigs and Tories.

Nac Mac Feegle Party 'Nae King! Nae Quin! Nae Laird! Nae Master! We Willnae be fooled again!'

Gladvent Fri 07-Feb-14 19:33:47

I think England, Wales and NI should get to vote on whether we want Scotland in UK.

claig Fri 07-Feb-14 19:36:23

I watched the speech by Tommy Sheridan mentioned by OldLadyKnowsNothing.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6GsEKrCvgw

What a speech! Excellent stuff!

George Galloway is rubbish in comparison. I have heard him before on radio. He seems to be one of these "one world", "let the world unite" socialists who is not in favour of any nationalism.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6GsEKrCvgw

If Scotland does vote for independence, that will be an earthquake following on from the earthquake that UKIP will cause in May's European elections.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 07-Feb-14 19:42:39

Ah, yes, of course new parties! So many possibilities! Thanks for the link, claig, didn't think Tommy would be your "type". grin

Isitmebut Fri 07-Feb-14 19:43:23

Twinklestein….I have no idea where you got your version of history from, but unfortunately the facts does not support it – in 1997 the UK (as now) was the fastest growing economy in Europe – and our annual deficit from the 1990’s recession was budgeted under the Conservatives by 2002/3.

The Budget Deficit Labour left was around £158 bil a year, mainly due to Labour’s unreformed over spending in the years before the crash. A country should not be borrowing £30-£40 bil a year in the good times, they should be paying off national debt - but obviously their immigration policy meant more benefits/welfare payments when they should have been falling through an employment 'boom'.

Next the full effects of the financial crash was TOTALLY avoidable, as I mention on this ‘politics’ section post below, second post of mine. In a period of U.S. financial deregulation, Brown had visited ex Fed Chairman Greenspan before 1997 and liked what he heard, and when came to power in 1997, he took away direct responsibility of the BoE and formed a regulatory ’tripartite’, why?

This Brown ‘tripartite’ still including the BoE, it also included the Uk Treasury HE controlled and the (then) new FSA with too wide a brief (from garage forecourt guarantees to huge City hedge Funds) – and it is now well known to have been a total disaster, with both Brown and the FSA apologising for looser bank regulation, as bank lending shot up.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/politics/1969660-Labour-banks-splitting-won-t-fix-capacity

If you look at a graph of UK bank balance sheet growth, from 1997 just mortgage lending went up from £21 billion annual lending to £115 billion in late 2007, which was an unprecedented rate of growth.

Finally manufacturing jobs under Labour, how do you lose 1 million manufacturing jobs before the crash, by 2005?
www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/million-factory-jobs-lost-under-labour-6150418.html

missinglalaland Fri 07-Feb-14 19:45:17

It really is up yo the Scotts to choose what us best for them. I wouldn't expect them to do anything else.
I do think it's obvious that the rump UK will lurch to the right without offsetting Scottish votes. So, a newly independent Scottland will be negotiating with a much larger, offended neighbour to the South whose votes depend on conservative voters.

claig Fri 07-Feb-14 19:47:06

'didn't think Tommy would be your "type".'

There was not a single thing I didn't agree with him about.
The question is which party can deliver it. It's not the Tories and it is certainly not New Labour. All the people can do is hope and wait.

But as Tommy says, the Scottish people have a chance to change things forever and to do it by a simple vote, unlike the more difficult ways in which many other countries have gained independence.

prettybird Fri 07-Feb-14 19:47:32

It's actually a fallacy that the Scottish MPs make a difference to who governs in Westminster. Since WW2, only twice did they make a difference and on both those occasions would have resulted in a hung parliament or an unstable majority of 1. On my iPod so difficult to find and post the links - but check it out.

Scotland makes no difference to the complexion of Westminster: it is middle England which decides who governs the UK. And it is middle England who is to blame for both New Labour (who came up first with the idea of the bedroom tax angry) and the ConDems. sad

Isitmebut Fri 07-Feb-14 19:47:51

- The first paragraph should read; -and our annual deficit from the 1990’s recession was budgeted under the Conservatives to be flat by 2002/3.

Clearly any government has far more spending options when inheriting a balanced budget, than borrowing £158 bil a year.

FannyFifer Fri 07-Feb-14 19:50:47

I actually think undercover YES agent Cameron is doing a great job.

The pause for dramatic effect, look down the lens, "we want you to stay" from DC today almost had me convinced!

Then I read twitter waiting for my fellow Brits to convince me more

I'm still a yes!!

ivykaty44 Fri 07-Feb-14 21:35:06

Do ya reckon DC is doing a reverse campaigns

McFox Fri 07-Feb-14 22:24:26

I am only glad when reading threads like these that some of the non-Scottish commenters don't get a chance to vote on this issue. Informed debate is what's needed, not the kind of self-interested and proud of it kind of nonsense I'm reading here. Let's leave the voting and the intelligent debate to the Scottish people who actually have the balls to stand up for what they believe in.

BetterTogether75 Fri 07-Feb-14 22:37:03

Self-interested and proud of it, eh? Oh, I forgot: Our Nationalists Are Better Than Everyone Else's Nationalists (marks bingo card).

Elderberri Fri 07-Feb-14 22:47:22

Never been to Scotland, prob never will. Why would I got somewhere people hate me....same for France.

I hope they vote yes, I want every last Scottish mp out of the Houses of Parliament.

McFox Fri 07-Feb-14 22:49:06

This isn't about being a nationalist, its about taking the time to understand the issues before wading in with nonsense. I just don't think that people should get involved in a debate if they don't bother to do some homework and arm themselves with facts, it doesn't matter what side they are on.

gelati3 Fri 07-Feb-14 22:50:12

Can someone remind me how much money the Scottish Parliament have wasted on the Edinburgh tram system? When the A9 is crying out for improvement?

gelati3 Fri 07-Feb-14 22:51:47

Alex Salmond was in Inverness for the Scottish Golf Open. Where did he and his cronies stay? Only in the most expensive five star hotel in Inverness....

prettybird Fri 07-Feb-14 22:56:35

I can (and very definitely will ) vote and am taking care to educate myself and, just as importantly, to ensure that my friends have also educated themselves before deciding which way they are going to vote.

Interestingly, ds (who doesn't have a vote as he will only be 14) has changed the way he wants the vote to go, having listened to lots of arguments both ways. I wish more of the adults were similarly informed and able to articulate their arguments based on facts rather than scaremongering or exaggeration.

McFox Fri 07-Feb-14 23:01:57

Prettybird, if only all adults (and teenagers) were so responsible.

claig Fri 07-Feb-14 23:05:25

'Why would I got somewhere people hate me....same for France.'

Elderberri, the French don't hate the English. That is the propaganda our tabloids and TV comedians propagate.

prettybird Fri 07-Feb-14 23:22:08

I've lived in France. I spent most of my time educating them that "Écossaise" was not synonymous with "Anglaise" hmm.

They only "got" it when I started calling them Belgiques because they also French! grin

prettybird Fri 07-Feb-14 23:25:31

McFox - ds is trying to get those of his friends who do have a vote to exercise it on 18 September - and trying to argue his case as to which way they should vote grin

OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 07-Feb-14 23:26:33

Gelati, the Edinburgh tram system was forced by Tories, before SNP had a majority in the Scottish Parliament. It was the only way to get the rest of the budget agreed. SNP would have preferred to have dualled the A9 between Perth and Inverness.

claig Fri 07-Feb-14 23:28:52

The French I know all love Scotland and want to go there.

A French friend told me they had booked their holiday. I said "Where are you going, to Barbados?" They said "Scotland". I thought for a moment and asked "Is Scotland a place in Barbados?". They said "no, Scotland. The Highlands." They love it.

GoingGoingGoth Fri 07-Feb-14 23:29:42

Elderberri, Claig is right, the French don't hate the English, it's just how the media over hear like to run their stories. My best friend lives over there and loves it.

Re independence, I hope it does go through, we've moved north just in case. I think Westminster is run by a bunch of self serving London centric fools (all parties) and Scotland has the opportunity for a fresh start.

A Yes vote isn't a vote for the SNP. The political parties in Scotland have a chance to stand for themselves and not just parrot the Westminster line. Scotland used to be conservative, but the post war years have changed that, and I think that's because Westminter don't look outside the south-east.

Ah, the whole the Scots hate the English debate has started! I can state hand on heart, that I do not hate people because of their nationality. What I hate is narrow minded sheep, who believe in the self perpetuating myths that come independence we will all be standing at the border with pitchforks.

Scotland is a beautiful country, open you mind elderberri, come visit. I cam guarantee you'll only be hated if you are a twat!

makemineapinot Sat 08-Feb-14 00:12:44

Well said, not all us scots hate the English and not all English hate the Scots - some of the points on here are pathetic (some very well made). I am Scottish and am totally crapping myself about independence! Yeah all the flag waving Braveheart patritism is all very well but England, Wales and NI are part of us, our friends, neighbours and families, so many families are a mix up of all 4 (and more) nations and the thought of national socialism taking over my country does frighten me - I for one will be looking to leave if AS and his cronies take power in an independent country - my children's future (and mine) mean too much to me.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sat 08-Feb-14 03:25:21

I have seen no "braveheart" comments from the yes side, only snidey comments from the no pov. There is no "national socialism" on offer from the yes pov.

Voting yes is not the same as voting for SNP/Alex.

Voting yes is not anti-English.

Voting yes is voting for our future, for our dc and our dgc, so that they/we will have the gvt we choose. (Of whatever nature.)

There seem to be plenty of English/Irish/Welsh wanting to move to Scotland if we say yes, more than enough to replace the Scots who will leave.

williaminajetfighter Sat 08-Feb-14 07:03:35

Back to the OP's original question - I think it's a good thing that a 'yes' vote means no longer including Scotland's dominantly labour votes at Westminster's election.

I think the Scots vote labour as a habit and it really skews the votes. It also means at a local level Scots are willing to vote in the biggest muppets into local councils just because they're labour candidates. I seriously think Scots would choose to vote in a toy dog over a Tory if the toy dog was Labour.

It makes for some pretty crap local politicians getting an awful lot of power and local govt being the parochial shambles it is.

Am writing this from within Scotland -- Glasgow.

williaminajetfighter Sat 08-Feb-14 07:08:33

Just to add that I am very worried the same will happen at a national level in an independent Scotland: crappy ineffective politicians governing the country just because they are labour. Who else would win the newly-independent Scottish election.

And yes I do think a jumped up, inexperienced ex-councillor is probably worse and more damaging to the country than Cameron.

benid Sat 08-Feb-14 07:10:57

Yes! Please don't go hmm

Scots are turning away from labour actually (who wouldn't with that bunch of drips in charge in WM and HR) scroll down to Scottish unitary authorities

McFox Sat 08-Feb-14 09:02:31

If people vote labour out of habit (insulting to say the least) then why isn't labour the predominant party across the country? Credit people with some intelligence.

The tide is turning. I don't know who will win the first independent election in Scotland. I will need to see who is running, and what they offer before I decide who gets my vote.

And there used to be pockets of Tories in rural Scotland. Dh is from farming stock and all of them voted Tory for years. I guess the finally realised for their vote to count they needed to put it elsewhere.

I'm English. DP is Scottish. We live in England.

If it's a yes vote, we'll be heading back to Scotland, to be part of a new country with progressive politics.

The idea of being in England being stuck with the Tories does depress me, yes.

Anyone other than the elite voting for the Tories is like Turkeys voting for Christmas, I wish more people could see that. They don't represent ordinary people, they never did.

Theonlyoneiknow Sat 08-Feb-14 09:33:45

I am really undecided at the moment, about what to do

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 08-Feb-14 09:55:19

I am really undecided at the moment, about what to do

That's a far more positive position than being so entrenched in a position that you are unwilling to look at the available information.

Use your google-fu and have a nosey around the internet, and remember, there is no unbiased information so look at things critically.

Theonlyoneiknow Sat 08-Feb-14 10:14:42

I know, I really need to collate all the info and go through it. It's a hugely important decision!!! My gut says no, but that's all it is. A gut instinct. It's not based on any real info which I why I need to be properly informed.

Best to start with the Yes and better together campaign websites. That will give you both sides. Then from there pick up what piques your interest.

I'd much rather we all go to the polls informed and confident we are voting with our heads not our hearts (well a wee but of heart is ok) than blinkered to anything and ticking a box.

Does anyone have teens who will be eligible to vote? I'm interested to hear what they think of it all.

BetterTogether75 Sat 08-Feb-14 11:46:08

To go back to the OP's question, no I don't believe people in England are generally bothered either way. Of course we will miss noted Scottish socialists such as Ken Loach, Bob Crow, Sally Bercow, Tony Benn, Owen Jones, Owen Hatherley and Rod Stewart, who will doubtless wish to return to their native land, but I guess we will just have to cope.

Joking aside, as a Scot who has made my home in England and has Irish, Welsh and doubtless English ancestry, I feel emotionally that we belong together and I will be very sad if a Yes vote should take place. It won't make any difference to my day-to-day life though. Front page on Sept 19th, lining cat-litter trays all over the land on Sept 20th. Sorry, but that's the reality.

The labour movement I grew up in was a cross-border affair and I have been saddened to see all that being neglected and forgotten over the years. Scotland will have to take back the 46 bastard fucker Labour MPs who voted through tuition fees for England, though - good riddance. (I'm a Labour Party member, btw).

Having said that it won't make a difference, I guess I am not being entirely fair. There is a democratic deficit down here, and I think an English Parliament would be a good thing in the long run.

Sorry about the language. It's an emotional thing. Oh, and I come from the Central Belt grin

Solopower1 Sat 08-Feb-14 12:21:40

To Glaikit: I've recently visited two schools where there have been independence debates. In both, less than 25% voted for independence.

In my son's school, despite his SNP teacher's constant pressure (!) and despite a school magazine with Alex Salmond on the first three pages, independence is not popular.

I have the feeling (hearsay, I admit) that there are management cliques in a couple of schools who have strong views on the subject, and make them known to teachers and students. There are also a few teachers - a tiny minority - who have no scruples in propagating their pro-independence views. I have not heard of the Better Together team doing this.

Solopower1 Sat 08-Feb-14 12:23:47

The argument for letting 16- and 17-year-olds vote is that it is their future. But how many people at 16 even know which subjects they want to take at uni, or what job they want to do?

Having said that, in many ways I feel the country's future is safer in their hands than in the hands of people who base their decisions on decades of prejudice and ignorance.

The only thing is, as one teacher said to me, the young people are as likely to vote against what the teacher says - just because they don't like the teacher. But again - is that really a good way to decide whether Scotland should be independent??

HesterShaw Sat 08-Feb-14 12:28:51

Where would it leave Wales and Northern Ireland?

Stuck with Tory governments forever. That's why I'm against.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 08-Feb-14 12:48:05

*Where would it leave Wales and Northern Ireland?

Stuck with Tory governments forever. That's why I'm against*

Not really. I'm not quite sure where people get this from as Scotland effectively has no say in which Party is in power, much the same as Wales and NI, as our populations are too small, I'm guessing significantly less than the population of London alone.

Sadly for Wales and NI they are screwed whichever way the Scots vote

Theonlyoneiknow Sat 08-Feb-14 12:48:12

I hope that the Scots (of which I am one) read up and vote with their heads not their (anti English, not me but there are a few!) hearts

Viviennemary Sat 08-Feb-14 12:56:07

At first it looked as if it would be Scotland's big loss to be out of the UK. Now it's looking more like the rest of the UK's loss if Scotland votes for independence. At first I thought they should stay and now I think go for it. Why not. And maybe there should be some redrawing of the borders just to add to the complications.

ssd Sat 08-Feb-14 13:15:26

I don't know many folk here who are anti English just for the sake of it, I think many don't trust the tory gov but thats true for many in England as well.

Although I've seen quite a lot of anti Scottish bias here which surprises me.

ssd Sat 08-Feb-14 13:16:47

does anyone know why Scottish people resident in England dont get to vote, yet expats living in Spain do?

Only Scottish residents have a vote in the indyref. Yes campaign link just incase anyone is easily offended!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 08-Feb-14 14:36:54

And maybe there should be some redrawing of the borders just to add to the complications

I'm sure there will be. Land borders are fairly uncontroversial (I think) but the Westminster government has moved the marine boundaries a few times (in their favour of course)

HollyHB Sat 08-Feb-14 14:40:07

Yes!
Let the England/Scotland border run from the Bristol Channel to the Wash.
That would make me happy.

LauraBridges Sat 08-Feb-14 15:08:15

Never thought of that - brilliant result. Bring it on and then those of us who are the net payers and the 1% who pay 3o% of the tax take might get more say in how our money is spent.

DonnaDishwater Sat 08-Feb-14 15:59:00

Labour will just have to change their policies to appeal more to (English and Welsh) people if Scotland leave the UK.

HollyHB Sat 08-Feb-14 16:04:21

Or England and Wales will have to leave the UK also.
Let Northern Ireland have it.

Bowlersarm Sat 08-Feb-14 16:07:36

grin @ HollyHB

No ones going to want the UK at this rate. It'll stand for Ununited Kingdom.

Custardo Sat 08-Feb-14 16:10:11

if i were scottish, i'd get rid of us ASAP.

I think i might move to scotland

HesterShaw Sat 08-Feb-14 16:35:23

So what would happen to the Lions? And the Six Nations? Priorities, priorities....

Six nations would be safe surely? Otherwise France and Italy would have to be in the union too? And the lions pick from those eligible for Ireland, which includes republic and northern. Rugby is safe!

<waves Saltire for the boys today!>

And let's face it the British lions were really the Welsh Dragons on the last tour!

prettybird Sat 08-Feb-14 16:57:24

The British and Irish Lions (to give them team its full name) would be called........

.......wait for it........wink

........the British and Irish Lions grin

If Scotland does vote "Yes" it would leave the United Kingdom but does not leave Britain, which would a geographical impossibility wink

Don't understand the question about the Six Nations - it is already played as 6 different countries (hence the name confusedhmm) - the United Kingdom is irrelevant in this rugby sense: two of the countries are outwith the UK and a third draws its players both from a non-UK country and part of the UK.

HesterShaw Sat 08-Feb-14 17:15:03

Yes I know. I'm sensitive to these things being Welsh. No need for the hmm face! It's just the whole "home nations" thing. And the triple crown.

Guess it's a non issue. I was just being a little facetious.

TiggyOBE Sun 09-Feb-14 11:15:59

If Scotland leave the UK will get the Tories? Um...If more people in the New UK vote Conservative we will get a Tory government. But to get a Tory government we would have to be predominately a Conservative voting country, so 'we' would be getting what 'we' want. (Even if I'm a Labour voter). That's democracy.

HesterShaw Sun 09-Feb-14 11:29:37

Not with the current system, which means that even if a minority of people want the Tories we still end up with a Tory government.

Twinklestein Sun 09-Feb-14 13:30:43

I don't see that Scottish independence means we don't 'belong together': we share land mass and history, nothing can alter that. Independence simply means we are ruled separately. I feel strongly that small states have the right to self-determination: I doubt many would question the right of Luxembourg and Montenegro to independence, for example, despite long histories of rule by other countries. The political complexion of Scotland is now so different to England's that it seems only fair.

Twinklestein Sun 09-Feb-14 13:31:04

Isitmebut ^ next time I need confused ramblings on poorly digested economics, I'll know where to come...

prettybird Sun 09-Feb-14 14:21:29

As I've said before, Scotland meaning the difference between a Tory or Labour Government is a fallacy.

The only time in recent years the Scottish Labour MPs have made a meaningful difference was, ironically enough, the 2010 election, when, without the Labour MPs, the ConDem coalition would've turned into a Conservative majority so no real difference there hmm - and even that, you can lay some of the blame at Labour's door as it refused even to discuss coalitions with any other parties.

I don't agree with everything that is posted in "Wings over Scotland" - but I do like the way that it always links to the original source material, so I can make up my own mind, but here is a good explanation why the fear of perpetual Tory rule is a fallacy. I have seen a better graphic of it somewhere, but can't find it.

HollyHB Mon 10-Feb-14 00:16:50

Agreed, Scotland needs to find its own way in the world. UK is becoming more like a Stalinist police state every year.

Isitmebut Thu 13-Feb-14 11:32:19

Twinklestein….I’m sorry if you believe that the truths are “confused ramblings”, but I do understand ideologically, why people need to blame the Conservatives for everything, but if I can, I’m happy to take the time to explain any of my confusions to you, and you have the time to listen.

You see even Mr Brown when admitting that he screwed up with the banks, still had to say that he shouldn’t have listened to them, when he never listen to ANYONE, not even Blair or MP’s within his own party – never mind the City and BoE who told him NOT to sell 40% of our gold reserves at a 20-year low price (under $300 an ounce versus the $1,900 plus a year ago). No government had sold our gold, even in the dark days of the 1970’s and early 1980’s, and we still don’t know where the proceeds went.

metro.co.uk/2011/04/11/gordon-brown-i-made-big-mistake-on-banks-before-financial-crisis-650630/

If you do not believe me, read for yourself, from the FSA Brown created during his first year in power, in an unwieldy regulatory tripartite where too many important issues (including Northern Rock early on in the crash) slipped through the cracks.

www.theguardian.com/business/2011/dec/12/labour-regulations-city-rbs-collapse

Isitmebut Thu 13-Feb-14 11:59:17

So all three main UK political parties insist that an Independent Scotland will have it’s own currency and control it’s own interest rates, rather than have interest rates set by the BoE - where similar to the problems of a ‘one rate fits all’ EU, what might be right for England, may not be right for Scotland – which could lead to restrictive, or overly loose money e.g. inflation.

And this also right for England, as if Scotland, used to spending more money per head that the UK (see below), gets itself in trouble, it needs to sort itself out.

www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/scotnews09/090112-cuba.html

Scotland on a par with Cuba for state largesse
Jason Allardyce January 11, 2009

"Welcome to McCuba. Scotland is set to become the third most state-dependent country in the world. Soon Havana and Baghdad will be the only capitals that rely more on public spending than Edinburgh, according to economic forecasters.

They say the uneven flow of government funds to north of the border is putting an “unfair burden” on English taxpayers. They predict that public spending will soon rise to the equivalent of almost 70% of Scotland’s gross domestic product.

The forecasters — from the Centre for Economic and Business Research (CEBR), a consultancy that advises the UK government — warn in a report that the burgeoning Scottish public sector is “unsustainable”.

*The CEBR paper, commissioned by The Sunday Times, shows that the annual public sector wage bill in Scotland has risen by 55% to £12 billion since the Scottish parliament was established in 1999, with nearly one in four working for the state. A further £2.3 billion is spent annually on pensions for public sector workers, whose ranks have grown by nearly 50,000 in the past 10 years.

The report will renew concerns among English taxpayers about the preferential treatment enjoyed by the Scots, who benefit from free personal care for the elderly, no tuition fees and free school meals.

The extra level of funding per head that Scotland receives has grown from £828 in 1999 to £1,644. In 1999 the state spent £4,993 per head in Scotland and £4,165 in England. Now Scotland receives £9,179 and England gets £7,535

Last year public spending was the equivalent of 43% of GDP in England and 56% in Scotland, placing Scotland 20th on a table of 160 countries most dependent on state spending, and England 67th.

The CEBR forecasts that the Scottish figure will rise to 67% by 2012-3, while the UK will rise to 48%. This would place Scotland in third place in the league of countries most dependent on state spending.

John Blundell, director-general of the Institute of Economic Affairs, said: “Scotland has been heading this way for an awfully long time. Adam Smith must be rolling in his grave.

“My impression is very much that Scotland got into a vicious circle of creating more and more benefits and more government jobs"

Frankly I hope we stay together, but unlike the original post here, lets cut through all the pooh and put all the facts on the table for those voting, as south of the border we don't have a say.

Isitmebut Thu 13-Feb-14 13:14:51

Moving on from here, Scotland now needs to figure out, with all the theoretical benefits of financial independence, where over time they can decide the exchange rate of the Scottish Groat(?), and what interest rate is neither too stimlautive or loose for its OWN economy – where the markets would CURRENTLY price Scottish interest rates on the international markets e.g. for 2-10 year Scottish government bonds, and decide Scottish domestic interest rates from there on.

The good news is that over the past year or two, some of the weaker country’s within the EU have seen their bond rates fall substantially; Greece 10-year government bonds are now at 7.36%, Portugal is now 5.0% and Spain 3.66% - but they are under the financial protection European Central Bank – so I’d suggest that an independent Scottish 10-year borrowing rates would be initially higher than all those, and would slowly fall over years, if allowed to join the EU. All IMO.

Viviennemary Thu 13-Feb-14 13:33:10

I think these latest threats and all the political parties ganging up is not really a good idea. If I had a vote I'd be more likely to vote yes after this. Lots of small countries have their own currency and do very well. Last year I thought it would be a no vote but now I'm not so sure at all.

niceguy2 Thu 13-Feb-14 13:33:50

The thing I'd like to ask the "yes" voters is what advantages do they feel keeping the pound gives them?

Surely after the recent events with the Euro that it's clear even to the most stupid economically illiterate that if you have currency union then you need to have MORE political union and very similar fiscal policies.

The reason the Euro floundered is because you had countries like Greece spending money like it was growing on trees and the trusty old German's keeping their costs down and spending little. Ultimately the differences tore it apart.....with mainly Germany picking up the tab.

So in this instance unless Scotland agrees to keep to keep their taxes and economic policies roughly the same as England/Wale & NI then it won't work out.

If they do promise that then what's really the point of independence? If they refuse then why would the rest of the UK want to pick up the tab for if/when Scotland have a crisis?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 13-Feb-14 13:38:46

I have to say I'm quite chuffed about this announcement. Its a really positive move that Westminster has finally said something concrete about what will happen after independence.

If Scotland isn't in a currency union there are many many other options, none of them dire. It will make things more difficult for both rUK and Scotland, but is by no means a deal breaker.

And of course, if Scotland has no share in UK currency it would be rather rich to expect them to take on a share of that currencies debt...

OldLadyKnowsNothing Thu 13-Feb-14 13:39:44

Thank you for saying that, Viviennemary, it's pretty much what I'm seeing around me. I think the refusal today re the pound sterling (and they can't stop us using it) was a serious tactical error on the part of the No lot.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 13-Feb-14 13:40:25

And will people please stop calling a Scottish currency a "groat". We are not mediaeval, and independence will not plunge us into the dark ages. These sly wee digs are just irritating.

niceguy2 Thu 13-Feb-14 13:42:05

I agree OldLady. I don't think tactically it is a very wise move, even if the reasons are sound.

CaptainGrinch Thu 13-Feb-14 14:04:46

And of course, if Scotland has no share in UK currency it would be rather rich to expect them to take on a share of that currencies debt...

That's alright, we'll just keep all the Army, Navy & RAF, you can use the money you'd save from not paying your share to hire & equip your own.....

Every time I hear someone say "we won't take on the debt" it just sounds petulant - sorry....

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 13-Feb-14 14:08:37

Every time I hear someone say "we won't take on the debt" it just sounds petulant - sorry....

Not petulant. Scotland is an equal partner in the Uk, not a colony. Therefore on independence Scotland should take on a proportion of the UK's debts, and a proportion of the UKs assets.

At the moment, Westminster seems to be thinking of Scotland as a colony entitled to nothing, but being petulant if we won't take on our share of debt.

MothratheMighty Thu 13-Feb-14 14:20:44

So the Scots will be denied the chance to have a military presence to 'assist' other countries?
They'll just have to join up with the UN troops and take a more humanitarian stance on the world stage. or have a militia, like Switzerland.
Plus, if all those Scottish military personel have to go home as they won't be part of the UK aemed forces, there will be a very large, experienced group available to help train up.
Do you know what the US troops called the British troops in the ME in joint operations?
The Borrowers. Never enough kit, so they used to liberate anything they could lay their mitts on.

Isitmebut Thu 13-Feb-14 14:26:23

An independent needing the international capital markets e.g. government bills and bonds, does NOT want to default of English debts – otherwise the markets will price your borrowings closer to Greece’s a few years back, at 14% plus

Not a good idea, as Scottish banks or other lenders will only be able to fund themselves ABOVE their governments borrowing rates, as in theory few banks are a better credit than their government.

Isitmebut Thu 13-Feb-14 14:27:51

Sorry re above...."An independent SCOTLAND......

FannyFifer Thu 13-Feb-14 14:31:34

"An independent Scotland would in such circumstances have no debt, a budget surplus (because our current deficit is entirely down to UK debt repayments – without those Scotland would be in the black BEFORE it even factored in savings from different policy choices, like the £800m a year on defence), and a vast reserve of tangible resources, most notably oil, as security.
The rUK, by comparison, would have a debt of £1,500,000,000,000 and a huge budget deficit. If you were going to lend someone money, would you choose the guy living within his means with plenty of assets, or the guy who already owes his entire annual salary and is still spending more than he earns?"

This kinda sums it up frm Wings.

FannyFifer Thu 13-Feb-14 14:33:51

Wouldn't be defaulting as Westminster already said they would take full responsibility for debt.

We also have a 10% share in BoE assets, it belongs to the UK not Westminster.

Isitmebut Thu 13-Feb-14 17:29:27

Now everyone now knows where they stand on Sterling (and interest rates) clearly every aspect of a Scottish divorce from the UK has to be SORTED out BEFORE the Scottish Referendum e.g. divvy up of debt and assets, including the small picture stuff – as no one in Scotland should have any doubt of the facts before they vote.

Politically there appears no upside for Westminster, as if everything is sorted now they are being tricksy, and if they do it after the vote, they are reneging on some sort of SNP understanding which would be seen as unforgivable – so on balance, as they say, better out than in

Btw is there an official name for what Scotland would call their own currency, or is it like the Scottish Play, unmentionable?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 13-Feb-14 17:56:02

Btw is there an official name for what Scotland would call their own currency

Scottish Pound maybe. Clydesdale/RBS/BOS/ all already print specific Scottish tender.

prettybird Fri 14-Feb-14 17:27:20

It's interesting that dh, who was a "Don't Know" verging to "No" has now become a committed "Yes" with this latest intervention. His rationale is that he is fed up with being told that Scotland is "too small, too stupid" to survive on its own and has got fed up of waiting for "Better Together" to explain exactly why Scotland is "better together". He says he can see why England might be better together (not just the balance of payments issues but also, quite literally, living room in Scotland as England progressively floods while Scotland rises under isostatic rebound he's a geographer ) - but he hasn't seen any arguments why Scotland would be better together - only threats.

Personally, I am somewhat concerns by the headline in today's Herald "Yes does not mean Yes" hmm. If Scotland does vote "Yes" (and it is still by no means certain that it wll), what does that say for UK democracy? sad

OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 14-Feb-14 19:14:57

I'm seeing a lot of that kind of reaction on my twitter, prettybird (well, not so much the geography stuff, though it's true!). Threats are not working any more, they're just enraging folk.

Solopower1 Fri 14-Feb-14 19:45:51

Well what did you expect? The dirty tricks brigades will soon be out in force, on both sides.

Cameron and Salmond are each fighting for their political futures. The other parties are waiting to rob their dead bodies. It's not going to be pretty.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will just have to make our minds up as best we can. There are so few indisputable 'facts' in this that all we can rely on is our knowledge of human nature and history.

When you talk to people who have already formed their views, there's usually a point at which the logic runs out and prejudice and gut feeling fill the gaps in their arguments.

Whenever I read or hear something I always think, who is telling us this, and why?

Here's the link to the Herald article. The Herald is mostly on the 'Yes' side, I think.

www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/yes-does-not-mean-yes.23438016

OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 14-Feb-14 20:17:25

The Sunday Herald is more pro than the Herald. I almost cancelled my delivery earlier this week, their stories have been so negative.

claig Sun 16-Feb-14 12:49:16

Interesting Peter Hitchens article in today's Mail on Sunday about Scotland, independence, the UK and the EU. Sad, but there is some truth in it.

'I think we have lost Scotland. I felt it the other day, a disturbing sensation like that moment when the tow-rope parts, the strain too great for its rotten, decayed fibres to bear.

...

As for the Prime Minister’s threat to take the whole Cabinet to Scotland, the actual sight of this squad of third-raters and phonies on the streets of Glasgow or Stirling should make a Nationalist victory certain."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2560410/PETER-HITCHENS-We-ask-Scots-loyal-ones-betraying-Britain.html

FannyFifer Sun 16-Feb-14 12:52:23
Theonlyoneiknow Sun 16-Feb-14 13:30:07

Will those born in Scotland have to give up their UK passports? And those born in england who live in Scotland have à dual nationality passport ?

FannyFifer Sun 16-Feb-14 13:41:28

People born in Northern Ireland can have a UK of a republic passport so would assume similar situation.

Or likely that can use UK passport till it runs out then apply for Scottish Inez

FannyFifer Sun 16-Feb-14 13:42:16

Scottish "one".

From the white paper

Citizenship and passports
In taking forward the result of a vote for independence, we will ensure that British citizens “habitually resident” in Scotland on independence will automatically be considered Scottish citizens. This will include British citizens who hold dual citizenship with another country. Scottish-born British citizens currently living outside of Scotland will also automatically be considered Scottish citizens. Other people will be able to register or apply for Scottish citizenship on independence based on clear criteria.
All Scottish citizens will have the right to acquire a Scottish passport, although there will be no requirement to hold one. We plan that citizens will be able to apply for Scottish passports from the date of independence.

ixqic Sun 16-Feb-14 14:38:22

I want Scotland to become independence and rid themselves those shitebags in London. Living in the North East, my biggest regret is not being able to join them in a merry escape.

ixqic Sun 16-Feb-14 14:40:25

independent

claig Sun 16-Feb-14 14:54:16

'and rid themselves those shitebags in London'

That's no way to refer to the Upper House.

OrangeFizz99 Sun 16-Feb-14 19:27:13

I think Scotland should vote yes. Then we wouldn't have to hear them whine about hating us all the time whilst getting free px and uni courses. They can pay for all that themselves then. Brilliant.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 16-Feb-14 19:45:15

We don't hate you, and already pay for our own prescriptions and uni courses. smile

HollyHB Sun 16-Feb-14 20:09:44

Scotland clearly needs to find its own way in the world. For better or for worse, and the Scots people need to understand that it could be better or worse and it is quite likely to get worse before it gets better.

But nonetheless, the price is worth paying. Liberation never did come cheaply. Wealth is not everything, equality and openness are important too.

Look at America, arguably the wealthiest large country in the world. Horrible health, horrible drugged-up lifestyles, crime, prisons, homelessness, malnourishment. A simpler, more frugal, yes more old-fashioned and healthier society has a lot going for it. Most of all, over time, they can rid themselves of GCHQ and the eavesdropping secret police society that Britain has become. Good luck to them; it will not be easy but then easy living was never high on the list for Scots people.

peggyundercrackers Sun 16-Feb-14 20:38:26

I live in scout land and think it would be a bad thing for it to be independent. In fact I don't know anyone in RL who wants independence. I do know quite a few people who have said if we get independence they will look at moving out of Scotland as it will change the country, in a bad way, for ever. I don't know if I would go that far but I would be prepared to move out if that's what it came to.

As for oil... There are lots of oil fields but the kit extracting the oil is old and needs billions spent on it to keep it going - it's getting to the point of being uneconomical hence the reason shell are already selling off their kit in the North Sea. The Brent fields are being closed slowly but surely and so will others. Yes there is millions being invested in the oil industry but it's so they can get oil in Canada, Angola, Nigeria etc. etc. these are the other places where it's cheaper to get oil out of the ground...

I don't believe there are enough people in scotland, who pay enough tax, to maintain the standard of living the country experiences just now - from the nhs to security to the forces to eduction to front line services and everything in between.

The white paper has said we will join the eu and salmond has said he will give us the euro... Great... So much for being independent... In order to grow the population they will open the borders to lots of immigrants, just what we want and need, not!

peggyundercrackers Sun 16-Feb-14 20:39:03

Scout land? Fecking iPad... It should be scotland!

FannyFifer Sun 16-Feb-14 20:40:35

Great, a racist Scot. Whats wrong with promoting immigration?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 16-Feb-14 20:46:00

I've seen at least as many folk from rUK saying they'll move north when we say yes, as say they'll leave, so that should balance out. There is new investment in the Kraken fields, and the potential for a whole new boom off Ayrshire once we're rid of Trident. We currently pay more to the Treasury than we get back (yes, we subsidise rUK atm!) so will be wealthier. We can adopt the euro or not, that's a choice several years away and not currently possible. And yes, we do need immigrants, rUK may not.

Peggy, with all due respect, you don't know anything about north sea oil and how it's extracted. Shell are selling assets, but they are also in joint venture with these new exploration companies that are reactivating wells, and getting more oil from them. The oil fro. The North Sea is top notch a grade crude. Very few places you get that. So as long as there is oil out there, it will always be viable.

Go to canada, us, Nigeria, Angola, Algeria, and you will find Scots working in the oil fields. We have an abundance of top quality oil workers all with skills that are transferable to other industries, renewables being one. And independent Scotland is not all about the oil.

And as for you comments on immigration, don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way south.

peggyundercrackers Sun 16-Feb-14 21:45:28

Glaikit you don't know me at all... funnily enough I work within the oil industry so I do know about it, yes I know there are scots people working in the industry I have friends who work all over the work in the industry from Houston in USA to Africa, Russia, Scotland, Norway etc. etc. and the Scottish part of it isn't as strong as it's made out to be, yes Aberdeen may be booming right now but give it ten years or so and the picture could be very different, if the oil price drops so will a lot of the production, it will be too expensive.

Fannyfifer just because I don't believe in mass immigration doesn't mean I'm racist - where's the shaking head smiley when you need it... It's an obvious card for you to play, can you not be original in your insults?

As did I for many years. And the important part in your post is the words "could" and "if"

It doesn't matter which government is in charge if oil prices plummet the effect would be the same. However, I believe the Scottish government is positioning Scotland in the renewables field will help if the worst were to happen.

PigletJohn Mon 17-Feb-14 00:17:13

As a UK citizen habitually resident in England, I am only an observer in the possible breakup of the UK. Like 90% of the UK population.

If the people who currently live in Scotland vote to leave us, I wish them well, but have no influence either way.

Theonlyoneiknow Mon 17-Feb-14 08:38:49

I work in the oil industry too and am not convinced there is enough long term production available in the North Sea. Perhaps for my lifetime yes, but not for my children and their children.

But that has always been the case. Then technology catches up and they are able to extract more.

Being independent isn't going to suddenly use up all the oil. The referendum isn't about oil. Scotland can carry on without it. We just have to (I hate this word) future proof our industry. Make sure that when the oil is no longer flowing we have a strong backbone of new industry to keep people employed.

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