'Cut the green c**p'. Has Cameron had a Damascene moment?

(117 Posts)
claig Thu 21-Nov-13 09:35:11

"David Cameron has ordered ministers to ditch the ‘green c**p’ blamed for driving up energy bills and making business uncompetitive, it is claimed.

...

The source said: ‘He’s telling everyone, “We’ve got to get rid of all this green c**p.” He’s absolutely focused on it.’

[[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2510936/Cut-green-c-p-Camerons-private-view-energy-taxation-horrify-environmental-campaigners.html]

Some of us have been saying this for years. But there is always praise in Heaven and among the public for a politician who repenteth and seeth the light!

hopskipandthump Thu 21-Nov-13 09:37:49

I believe in protecting the environment - but I think that the research around global warming is flawed, and the measures that have been introduced because of it are ruinous. So I think it's the right course of action.

But I suspect you're looking for people to disagree vehemently rather than agree with you!

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 09:42:18

hopskipandthump, I agree with you about wanting to protect the environment and that global warming "research" is flawed.

I think that this shows that not only has Cameron had a Damascene moment, but that the talk of him being an out-of-touch toff is a lie, because he has expressed himself in the forthright language used by the people on this issue.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 09:46:05

‘He’s telling everyone, “We’ve got to get rid of all this green c**p.”'

Has he told Ed Davey?

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 09:50:44
GeekLovesANYFUCKER Thu 21-Nov-13 09:50:56

I am curious as to what sort of scientific experience and training you have had claig?. I recall that one of the issues in having a rational debate about climate change is that there are so few climate change deniers that have a solid scientific background or do not have ulterior motives in denying climate change.

I'm waiting for proof either way of global warming. I don't have a preference. But in the meantime we are 'saving the planet' by making sure poor people can't afford heating.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 21-Nov-13 09:54:17

talk of him being an out-of-touch toff is a lie, because he has expressed himself in the forthright language used by the people on this issue

Though talk of him being a cynical devious manipulative liar with no principles beyond letting the market wreak what havoc it will, might be slightly closer to the mark?

Yes, Geek, I do wonder about the qualifications of those who breezily state that the research and findings of so many reputable scientists in peer-reviewed publications is 'flawed'!

Geek, we have had people on both sides creating evidence to save wasting time actually finding any and both sides are collecting faithful fans like they are football teams or religions.

But whichever way it turns out this isn't the way to deal with it.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 10:04:32

"Tory high command has also privately abandoned Mr Cameron’s pre-election mantra ‘vote blue, go green’. ‘It’s vote blue, get real, now – and woe betide anyone who doesn’t get the memo,’ the source said."

'Vote blue, get real'

Excellent. Is this the work of that master strategist Lynton Crosby?
Did he get the Tories in a room, knock a few heads together, ignore their wailing, and explain to them in words of one syllable, how to win an election?

He's worth every penny!

He has established clear blue water between the public and Tories on one side and the progressives on the other.

He has kicked the ball into their court. If they now change their position and agree to 'cut the c**p', then they will be discredited, and if they don't then their hopes of success will be blighted. So, I urge Cameron to remain firm in resolve and remain with the people united.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 21-Nov-13 10:06:56

Do you not have a problem with the fact that it was he who was spouting what he now admits he thinks was 'crap' in the first place, Claig? Does that not make you wonder about the guy's probity?

Beehatch Thu 21-Nov-13 10:10:25

Sorry, you lost me at the Daily Fail link [Hmm]

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 10:14:55

"Does that not make you wonder about the guy's probity?"

No I don't question his probity. I questioned his common sense to be taken in by the progrssives. But it now looks like he has finally got the message, has had a Damascene conversion on the road to the election and has probably listened to a real master Conservative strategist and tactician such as Lynton Crosby.

I think Luke said it best. I paraphrase what he said

"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repenteth than over ninety-nine righteous Conservatives who need no repentance.”

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 21-Nov-13 10:18:30

Ah, so you think at the time he genuinely believed it but has now seen the light? And it was just lucky that saying he believed it might have broadened his appeal, pre-General Election?

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 21-Nov-13 10:19:21

And yes, I'm sure Jesus is rejoicing at this news!

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 21-Nov-13 10:23:16

Nit it is perfectly possible to change your mind about something you know, genuinely change your mind.

I used to be all for 'green' taxes and levies, believing that they might a) drive changes in behaviour, and b) raise money that could be used to develop more ecological ways of living.

Neither of those things have really happened, but energy costs have risen to the point that people are struggling to heat their homes and turn the lights on. That is unacceptable IMO so the taxes need to go.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 10:24:20

Yes, I think he either believed it then or did what the elite wanted him to do by following their global warming, green line.

But, I think now, a man from outside, an outsider, a wise man bearing gifts has come from Australia and has read the tea leaves and the mind of the British public and has told Cameron that he has to change his position and defy the elite and their green agenda if he wishes to win over the public.

Will Cameron have the courage and conviction to see it through, to face the brickbats thrown at him by the progressives on the Parliament benches and by the elite? Only time will tell?

But the public and the angels in Heaven all wish him Godspeed.

SteamWisher Thu 21-Nov-13 10:26:01

Global warming makes people think that we will get hot summers and less rain etc. which is why the climate change argument faces an uphill battle.

I think we should all be encouraged to take better care of the environments through reducing use of resources, wasting less food etc etc. not by blanket taxes etc which just get people's backs up and allow energy companies to blame the taxes for price increase, when actually they're fleecing us.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 10:43:03

Although, the news may not be as rosy as it seems. This may just be a story to cheer up the Daily Mail reader in the Season of Cheer and an attempt to spread some goodwill and hope to the Tory faithful as they read their energy bills in a bleak midwinter.

Maybe it is not for real, maybe the elite got to Cameron when he was abroad and away from the wise counsel of Lynton Crosby

"David Cameron Issues Stark Warning To Tory Climate Change Sceptics"

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11/16/david-cameron-climate-change-tory_n_4286357.html

Only a strong leader with courage and conviction will be able to face down the pressure from the elite and their newspapers such as the Guardian over this issue.

Maybe Cameon is not that man. Maybe the task will fall to a man called Nigel Farage.

DontmindifIdo Thu 21-Nov-13 10:54:39

I read this earlier in the telegraph. I think it's actually rather a clever move by Cameron.

High energy prices are unpopular, and people are starting to get angry at the energy companies, and Labour's policies around price limits are proving popular. This way he can do something that has the effect of bringing down prices via lowering costs, without actually reducing the energy companies profits (win win). He gets to take credit for prices falling, rather than if the companies themselves lowered prices (which either the companies would take credit for, or the Labour party for "scaring them into proving htey don't need more regulation").

Calling green policies "crap" also is a very clever move, it suits the Telegraph reader/the traditional Tory voter who a) has a natural distrust for all government intervention and b) are more likely to not care about the environment/put caring for the environment in the same category as "Health and Safety" of being maddness.

The language also makes Cameron look more common, more "one of us" in a way calling it Green Nonesense or green rubbish wouldn't. By publicising him swearing, they are making him seem like a more normal person.

It also has the effect of causing a headache for the Labour party. They have to decide if they would put green policies back in place. They rely on an alliance of traditional working classes and socially concious middle classes for their vote. The socially concious middle classes are more likely to care about the environment and will want something done by a Labour government. However, by framing the green policies in terms of adding costs to poorer people, it'll be hard to put them back without the Tories claiming Labour will push up energy prices, not lower them.

It's a clever move for a variety of ways. If it will actually work and steal from the Labour party the mantal of being the party to suggest ways to sort out the high energy prices will come down to the actual cost effect - I don't think the green policies are enough to lower prices dramatically, which is what the public wants and what the Tories need to avoid Labour being able to have their "lower energy prices" attention/vote grabbing policy.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 10:55:57

"Tory high command has also privately abandoned Mr Cameron’s pre-election mantra ‘vote blue, go green’"

Maybe it is "Tory high command", whoever they are, who have changed this policy and maybe the skipper, Cameron, has to take account of the orders of the Admiralty.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 11:00:07

Very good analysis, DontmindifIdo. Spot on.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 12:18:59

The Daily Mail story has been updated already, sadly.

Daily Mail readers were going wild in the Comments section, green arrows were reaching stratospheric levels as the Daily Mail reader wished to regsiter approval of the 'cut the green c**p' message.

But it looks like the elite advisers, like the ones who advised Cameron to have a photo op with huskies in the Arctic Circle, may have stepped in to try and stem the Gadarene rush of the Daily Mail reader to click on green arrows.

'Downing Street source says they 'do not recognise' the green crap phrase'

What a shame!

OhYouBadBadKaleds Thu 21-Nov-13 12:23:34

Claig - please can you outline your reasons for agreeing with Cameron on this.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 12:29:12

Because I believe that the green 'ecotaxes' on energy are a means of the elite to try and price ordinary people out of the necessities of life, such as fuel and heat and electricity, in order to curtail their standard of living, while simultaneously redistributing taxpayer money to rich landed aristocrats who profit by erecting inefficient windmills on their large estates.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 12:31:18

I am sure that a lot of Etonians, aristocrats, landed gentry and Guardian readers are in favour of it, but you only have to read the comments in that Daily Mail article to see how unpopular these policies are with ordinary people.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 12:34:27

"David Cameron’s wealthy father-in-law is making almost £350,000 a year from a publicly-subsidised wind farm on his country estate.

Sir Reginald Sheffield, who is said to be worth £20million, earns the sum in ‘rent’ from the consortium behind the farm – just for having the turbines on his land."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2027708/Samantha-Camerons-father-nets-350-000-year-subsidised-wind-farm.html

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 12:37:19

And meanwhile, we are told that something like 500,000 people are now dependent on foodbanks and old-age pensionrs are worried about the spiralling fuel bills of which approx 10% are due to green 'ecotaxes'.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 12:58:09

Payday loan companies are profiting from the people on the back of this eco scam, which is an elite policy to redistribute wealth from the poor to the rich and from rich countries to poor countries in order to curtail the living standards of the middle and working classes and enrich the rich in an attempt to deliver what they call "sustainability" and their goal of a post-industrial low-growth, zero-growth society as they shut down our manufacturing and productive capacity and deliver us into the hands of the sharks of the financial system.

Their financial regulators do not protect us and some bankers can have very little knowledge and some may even take drugs and still be pillars of society.

"Soaring petrol prices are driving hard-up motorists into the clutches of extortionate payday loan companies , the AA warns today.

It found one in six car owners, hammered by four petrol price spikes in the last 18 months, are going into the red.

According to the study, a sixth are forced to take out payday loans, pawn prized possessions, go overdrawn or dig into savings to top up the tank.

With pump prices hitting an 11 month high of 140.3 a litre in March and still at 138p a litre today, drivers are having to stump up an extra £5 for a small tank of fuel.

A fifth admitted their household budgets are at breaking point because of petrol prices, rising to third of those in low paid, unskilled jobs.

www.mirror.co.uk/money/personal-finance/petrol-prices-rising-costs-forcing-2254913

OhYouBadBadKaleds Thu 21-Nov-13 13:09:02

So it is the commercial and financial impact of green initiatives that you object to rather than whether or not anthropogenic climate change exists?

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 13:17:45

Yes, because it is no happening. The scares and the scams are a cover for the elite's commercial and financal policies against ordinary people and ordinary businesses.

This is what we are now told that Cameron has said. It seems that he has changed his tune.

"David Cameron has ordered ministers to ditch the ‘green c**p’ blamed for driving up energy bills and making business uncompetitive, it is claimed.

But read the comments of Daily Mail readers. Do they believe Cameron and his Damascene conversion?

The elite know that their Green Emperor Has No Clothes. The elite write the Guardian and read the Daily Mail, they know what the public thinks.

The elite will try to stem the tide for as long as they can, just like King Canute tried to do, but they know that one day a politician will arise and say what the public think.

OhYouBadBadKaleds Thu 21-Nov-13 13:28:09

Ok, so you also disagree that climate change is happening?

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 21-Nov-13 13:29:54

The elite will try to stem the tide for as long as they can - ironic, given the subject matter!

I don't think it's anything to do with 'the elite' not wanting ordinary people to drive cars. I think it's that all proper scientists have shown that global climate change is happening, and some politicians want to try to address that and some do not.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 13:31:31

Why has the Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph published this story from what we are told is a "source"?

I think it is because they know that there are very few Tory voters who believe the 'green c**p' and very few who believe what the Guardian says about it.

They want to send us a signal that they are on our side and not "all in it together" with the elite. They know that Farage has called their bluff and says what many Tories think.

So the huskies are gone, the hug-a-hoodies are gone, the windmills are going and 'Tory High Command' has said 'vote blue, get real'.

They are trying to keep it real, to be down with the people and not with the elite. But are they for real or is this only to fool Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph readers because there is an election coming and many of those readers believe that Farage is more for real than them?

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 13:32:03

'Ok, so you also disagree that climate change is happening?'

Yes

GeekLovesANYFUCKER Thu 21-Nov-13 13:38:30

Mind you this does remind me of the fact that on Newsnight there have been recent debates such as the current drug policy and climate change where not a single scientist has been present. This shows up just how poor scientific literacy is for the general public and within Parliment itself.

Ultimately the Universe does not care for politics and dogma - we must find out about it and adapt ourselfs to it not the other way round.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 13:41:56

What will Cameron do next?

Instead of being photoed with huskies in the Arctic Circle, will he instead be photoed with a pensioner next to her three-bar heater and her fuel, water and council tax bills?

I support him if he did say 'cut the gren c**p' and I hope he cuts all the other crap as well and gets real and focuses on ordinary people and what they are going through.

DoctorTwo Thu 21-Nov-13 13:57:59

"Cutting all the green crap" will reduce the average £1300 fuel bill by about £40-£50 pa. It's typical Tory claptrap aimed at the hard of thinking.

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 14:04:27

Very interested to read your views on climate change, Claig. I wondered what you thought of room-temperature quantum bit storage? Do you see that as a viable future path for semiconductors? Also, I was curious about whether you believed that structure-led design targeting GPCRs is really going to drive the next generation of new therapeutic molecules, given that about a third of current pharmaceuticals target them? Finally, I obviously was very keen to find out your perspective on whether the discover of the Huge-LQG and possible discovery of an even larger structure in recent weeks deals a fatal blow to the cosmological principle. Obviously, these are all important live scientific debates, and so you'll have a view on them, just as you do on the research base for anthropogenic climate change. They all seem like topics where a layperson can just gen up a bit and get stuck in.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 14:07:36

DoctorTwo, it's a start. It will also stop taxpayer money redistribution from the poor to the rich to pay for inefficient windfarms on aristocrats' land.

But as Cameron has belatedly seemed to understand, it will also help business and employment by making business more competitive. It's win-win, the people are happy, business is happy and the elite are unhappy.

"David Cameron has ordered ministers to ditch the ‘green c**p’ blamed for driving up energy bills and making business uncompetitive , it is claimed.

OhYouBadBadKaleds Thu 21-Nov-13 14:08:10

Ok, it probably wont surprise you that I believe that there is a strong probability that climate change is happening smile

To let you know where I'm coming from, my background is in science, live in a small semi, send dd to a comp, and def not one of the financial elite that you refer to (though by developing country standards I guess most of us are).

I've read round the subject fairly widely, attended conferences where the subject has been debated, been to lectures on it given by climatologists and physicists, not politicians, or those in the financial sector and the evidence I have seen presented does seem to strongly suggest that climate change is happening and that it is being driven by changes created by man.

The question that remains in my mind is what do we do about it? At the moment a large part of the government policy has been aimed at changing the behaviour of consumers by negative means in the hope that will force businesses to change their behaviour. It is working in part, people are having to cut down their energy use - and manufacturers are responding with products that create lower emissions. But it is also not working very well.

Firstly green taxes' are hitting the poorest disproportionately hard and as well as being unfair, its not very effective as it tends to be the better off who are the highest energy users, who can absorb the price rises better. There isnt enough protection for those who genuinely cannot afford to heat their homes or get to work.

Secondly, greener goods=more things to sell. People are encouraged to ditch old light bulbs, old fridges etc in favour of newer models - but when you look at the energy cost of manufacturing the goods in the first place, it is often questionable as to whether the total carbon cost was worth it. So the winners are the businesses rather than the planet.

But I strongly believe that those of us who can do something must. Because harder winters, rising sea levels, stronger storms and in fact many of the effects of climate change will hit the poorest in the world hardest. I'm someone who believes that we owe it not only to the poor of this country but also to the poor across the globe to try our best to minimise the impact that we are having on our climate.

Yeb Sano - the Philippines Climate change negotiator in 2012 a country that def isn't considered to be 'among the elite'

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 14:10:11

'I wondered what you thought of room-temperature quantum bit storage? Do you see that as a viable future path for semiconductors? Also, I was curious about whether you believed that structure-led design targeting GPCRs is really going to drive the next generation of new therapeutic molecules, given that about a third of current pharmaceuticals target them? Finally, I obviously was very keen to find out your perspective on whether the discover of the Huge-LQG and possible discovery of an even larger structure in recent weeks deals a fatal blow to the cosmological principle.'

It is not the time and place to explain those topics on this thread. Start another thread if you would like that explained. And anyway, what do they have to do wih what Cameron is alleged to have said i.e. 'cut the green c**p'?

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 14:12:53

'They all seem like topics where a layperson can just gen up a bit and get stuck in.'

Please don't knock laypeople. Some of them probably know more about banking than Labour advisers such as Paul Flowers.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 14:20:51

'People are encouraged to ditch old light bulbs'

I don't know if the Guardian reported this story.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363448/We-pick-toxic-new-bulbs-Councils-say-energy-saving-lights-dangerous-binmen.html

''We will not pick up toxic new bulbs': Councils say energy-saving lights are too dangerous for binmen'

'Councils across the UK are refusing to pick up low-energy lightbulbs from homes as they contain toxic mercury, which gives off poisonous vapours.'

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 21-Nov-13 14:21:24

I think, Claig, the point was, are you interested in and do you know about contemporary issues in science generally, or is your focus more on conspiracy and the elite and.... well, I'm not too sure, really!

Quite agree re. laypeople - they are certainly able to read, evaluate and consider all sorts of theories, and their opinion shouldn't be dismissed as politically motivated, Daily Mail-induced fuckwittery at all... except when it manifestly is! I don't think homehelp was knocking laypeople in the slightest.

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 14:25:23

Was that a whooshing sound of my post flying overhead just then? Or did you get-and-ignore the point I was making?

I'm not knocking laypeople. I'm a layperson myself, not a scientist. I'm just not - how can I put this charitably? - self-confident enough to believe that a bit of reasoned thinking will allow me to form a credible opinion on live scientific topics - whether climate change, quantum informatic, drug discovery or astrophysics. These are hard subjects that require professional training and specialist knowledge.

I find it particularly odd that you raise Paul Flowers in this context, given that a significant part of the concern in relation to him is that he was a layperson and not professionally trained!

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 14:26:30

Poor countries will benefit in theory as the elite pursue their policy of transferring wealth from the rich countris to leaders and governments of poor countries.

Whether this money will really help the ordinary people in poor countries remains to be seen. It may end up in the hands of corrupt leaders and some may go in commissions to the elites and some may end up in Swiss bank accounts rather than remain in the bank accounts of middle class and working class people in richer countries.

It all depends on whether the elite get their way easily of if the public cry 'the Green Emperor Has No Clothes'.

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 14:27:09

Thank you, SteamingNit. Exactly so.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 21-Nov-13 14:34:07

So Claig... do you think the scientists who propound climate change as a) real and b) happening are lying, or wrong?

Is it that they are all in the pay of the elite, so they make shit up because they want old people to be cold and hungry, or is it that they believe they're right, but actually they're not, and 'the elite' seize upon their errors to found a system of elitism by which they can keep old people poor and hungry and unable to drive and use nice light bulbs? Who do you think is just misguided, and who do you think is actually lying

OhYouBadBadKaleds Thu 21-Nov-13 14:34:36

You're right Claig there is a big issue with the new light bulbs (there are lots of issues) but it doesn't mean that climate change isn't happening, it means that some of the solutions that are being tried to cut emissions are not great.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 14:35:17

'are you interested in and do you know about contemporary issues in science generally, or is your focus more on conspiracy and the elite and'

Yes, I am more a student of politics than of science, which is why I av some understanding of the politics of green political movements.

The fact that the Prime Minister is alleged to have said 'cut the green c**' is a positive sign that he finally gets the 'Tory High Command's' view of 'vote blue, get real'.

It is a message that New Labour would do well to heed.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 14:37:12

'some of the solutions that are being tried to cut emissions are not great'

agree wth you completely. Maybe Cameron has seen the light as well and that is why he is reported as saying 'cut the green c**p'. We can only hope.

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 14:37:13

Incidentally, I think it's important not to take a skeptical view on the science because one doesn't like the policy response to the science.

I personally agree that much current policy on climate change is ineffective and some is actively counterproductive. But as for the science: Geek put it rather beautifully: "Ultimately the Universe does not care for politics and dogma - we must find out about it and adapt ourselfs to it not the other way round".

So as I see it, we have:
- It's happening
- Current response isn't good enough
And the appropriate next step is
- Let's fix the response
Not, "Let's tell ourselves it isn't happening"

As my favourite Talmudic quotes say:
"Im lo achshav, eimatai? [If not now, when?]"
and
"It is not incumbent upon you to complete the work [of perfecting the world], but neither are you at liberty to desist from it" (2:21)

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 21-Nov-13 14:37:42

But then you must worry about what will happen if it turns out somehow that all the scientists are right, and climate change is catastrophic?

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 14:39:30

'So Claig... do you think the scientists who propound climate change as a) real and b) happening are lying, or wrong?'

I think both apply to some scientists.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 14:41:25

'But then you must worry about what will happen if it turns out somehow that all the scientists are right, and climate change is catastrophic?'

Not at all, because I don't believe it one iota. It will all come out in the wash. The lies will be exposed. 'Cut the green c**p' is only the start. King Canute couldn't stop the tide and the elite can't stop the truth.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 14:43:23

'Is it that they are all in the pay of the elite, so they make shit up because they want old people to be cold and hungry,'

They don't even understand what the elite's aims are. The elite didn't tell them. They are scientists and the elite are not scientists but are political.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 21-Nov-13 14:43:56

What makes you so sure though - because it's really really unlikely, surely, that everyone who sees the research as suggesting this, is wrong or a liar, isn't it?

I'd love some of your optimism, but I'm not seeing what it's based on!

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 14:44:33

I have to leave for a while now. Back in a few hours' time.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 14:47:54

'What makes you so sure though - because it's really really unlikely, surely, that everyone who sees the research as suggesting this, is wrong or a liar, isn't it?'

Lots of scientists don't believe it, it's just that the BBC mainly show the ones who do as well as the polar bear.

To understand the policies of the elite, you must understand politics. It's no use believing dodgy dossiers or fiddled data or massaged reports or spin meisters.

Back later, must go.

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 14:48:30

And are you not at all concerned that you have a vested interest in shooting the messenger because you don't like the message?

As I said before, and as you've confirmed, you don't have a view on most other scientific issues, just the ones that affect you personally ... where, by the most remarkably convenient coincidence, your view of the truth (climate change isn't happening, and scientists working in this field are lying and wrong) is perfectly aligned with the answer you would have found most palatable!

I think it's time to admit the truth. For me personally, this goes as follows: I wish to buggery climate change wasn't happening. I got to travel once on Virgin Upper Class to New York and it was bloody great and if I could afford it and it had no climate change consequences, I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I'd really like to leave the heating on as much as possible in the winter. Gadgets are fun. But. But but but. The scientific consensus is clear: we've stuffed up the thermostat and the kind of lifestyle I'd like to lead is going to cause more problems. It's sucky, but I can't pretend it's not real. And mitigation now is going to be a lot less painful than mitigation in the future.

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 14:55:03

This notion of "lots of scientists don't believe in climate change" reminds me of nothing so much as that group of Republicans in the hours prior to Obama's re-election who just point-blank could not accept that the polls were telling the truth, because it went against their worldview.

It's settled science. The research has long since moved from "is this happening?" to questions of degree - when, where, how quickly, etc.

There are whole journals published on the topic. Journals who are subject to ad hominem attacks only because they focus on climate change, while their sister journals are ignored completely. Like Nature climate change.

DoctorTwo Thu 21-Nov-13 14:56:33

It will also stop taxpayer money redistribution from the poor to the rich

No it won't, that's been happening for over 30 years now. It's just more blatant now. There are a couple of ways to ensure the bastards don't steal any more of your money though. Precious metals and Bitcoin.

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 15:04:56

Eh? Precious metals are just another asset class, like housing, jewellery, fine art, wine, financial investments, etc. There are some minor tax advantages, but not materially different from other investments.

http://www.moneywise.co.uk/investing/investment-guides/15-questions-to-ask-investing-precious-metals

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 15:35:14

'Who do you think is just misguided, and who do you think is actually lying'

There was a time when the elite of the day, the Church, amd most scientists believed that the Sun revolved around the Earth, it was known as the geocentric model. The elite of the day, the Church, even prosecuted scientists who argued differently.

Today our elite are pushing the anthropogenic climate catstrophe theory as opposed to the old elite's geocentric theory, and many scientists are on board and agree with the elite.

When it comes to who is misguided and who is lying, I think that the scientists who believe the anthropogenic theory are misguided and the elite are lying. I don't think the elite believe a word of it or have changed their energy consumption, but just use it to trick the masses.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 15:38:47

Precious metals are no protection from socialists and puppets of the elite.

"Roosevelt's gold confiscation: could it happen again?

FDR forcibly purchased American investors' bullion during the Great Depression."

"By virtue of the authority vested in me by ... an Act to provide relief in the existing national emergency in banking, and for other purposes ... I, Franklin D Roosevelt ... do declare that said national emergency still continues to exist and ... do hereby prohibit the hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States by individuals, partnerships, associations and corporations..."

These are the opening phrases of Executive Order 6102, issued by FDR 80 years ago on Friday. The order has become notorious among gold investors. Some fear something similar could happen again, that their government might seek to take their gold away as part of some trumped up "solution" to a "national economic emergency".

Events in Cyprus, where at one point it seemed that the state was going to levy a 6.75pc tax on "insured" deposits below €100,000, have served only to heighten fears that private wealth can, under certain circumstances, simply be appropriated.

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/gold/9968494/Roosevelts-gold-confiscation-could-it-happen-again.html

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 15:44:46

'Some fear something similar could happen again, that their government might seek to take their gold away as part of some trumped up "solution" to a "national economic emergency".

The elite also use 'emergencies' as justification.

An "economic emergency" justifies taking people's wealth, and a "climate catastrophe emergency" justifies cutting people's living standards and lifestyles and transitioning people to a more 'sustainable' future of post-industrial low growth, financial fat cats and wealth transfer from the middle and working classes of richer nations to the elite and to poorer countries.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 15:46:32

meant to say
always use
not
also use

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 15:51:40

It's telling to note you studiously not responding to my last several posts, claig

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 15:58:39

HomeHelp, I will respond.

'And are you not at all concerned that you have a vested interest in shooting the messenger because you don't like the message? '

I have no vested interest. I just believe that the messenger is reading the message of the elite and I don't believe their message.

I find myself more in agreement with the alleged words of Cameron i.e. 'cut the green c**p'. Cameron seems to have made a volte-face, whereas I have always believed it was c**p spun by spinners and puppets with their pagers on our media., just as I believed that 'hug-a-hoodie' and the Dance with Huskies was crap too.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 16:01:43

'As I said before, and as you've confirmed, you don't have a view on most other scientific issues, just the ones that affect you personally'

I don't think this is real, I don't think it is a scientific issue. I don't believe the 'Hockey Stick' model and the DVD produced by billionaire, Al Gore. I believe this is political.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 16:04:56

"Schools will have to issue a warning before they show pupils Al Gore's controversial film about global warming, a judge indicated yesterday.

The move follows a High Court action by a father who accused the Government of 'brainwashing' children with propaganda by showing it in the classroom.

Stewart Dimmock said the former U.S. Vice-President's documentary, An Inconvenient Truth, is unfit for schools because it is politically biased and contains serious scientific inaccuracies and 'sentimental mush'."


www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-485336/Schools-warn-Gore-climate-film-bias.html

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 16:08:29

This is a report from 2010 about an IPCC report of 2007. What took them so long, all the experts and scientists and elite, to spot the error?

'The UN's climate science body has admitted that a claim made in its 2007 report - that Himalayan glaciers could melt away by 2035 - was unfounded.

The admission today followed a New Scientist article last week that revealed the source of the claim made in the 2007 report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) was not peer-reviewed scientific literature – but a media interview with a scientist conducted in 1999. Several senior scientists have now said the claim was unrealistic and that the large Himalayan glaciers could not melt in a few decades.'

www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jan/20/ipcc-himalayan-glaciers-mistake

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 21-Nov-13 16:08:42

I think your definition of 'elite' needs some unpacking - are the Green Party the elite, or the Tories, or both? It seems to be something to do with Old Etonians, but also something about left-wing Guardian readers - have I got that right?

Yes, people did used to think the sun went around the earth - but I think your position has more in common with the Flat Earthers than it does with any elite-bashing truth-seeking trail-blazing quest for truth.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 16:14:55

'I got to travel once on Virgin Upper Class to New York and it was bloody great and if I could afford it and it had no climate change consequences, I'd do it again in a heartbeat.'

Don't deny yourself. Blair and Branson and Brown and Cameron and all of the elite don't stop flyng around the world. Don't curtail your lifestyle and fall for the con, while the elite make merry.

Some of them probably get their heating expenses all paid for, even to possibly heat their stables, maybe out of taxpayer money, while pensioners and people on low incomes worry themselves sick about how they will be able to afford their energy bills with the included 'ecotaxes'.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 16:17:51

'are the Green Party the elite, or the Tories, or both? It seems to be something to do with Old Etonians, but also something about left-wing Guardian readers - have I got that right?'

No, they are all puppets. The elite are the uber-wealthy billionaires and trillionaires who do not appear on the stage, but merely direct the actors from the wings.

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 16:20:05

claig, everyone has a vested interest. You have posted repeatedly about the bad things you believe are happening as a result of climate change policies. You are not uninterested in whether those things are stopped, you want them to be stopped, and you believe that will be to your personal benefit (eg lower your taxes) if it happens.

Having a vested interest is not an admission of weakness.

It just requires some critical self-appraisal when considering issues in which the interest plays out.

Anyway, I'm minded to give up at this point, as you obviously are quite keen to stick to your position no matter what.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 21-Nov-13 16:21:06

Ah, ok.

And they have an interest in keeping the poor poor, but by the very specific means of pretending there is a change in the global climate, which message they know will be picked up on and worried about by the middle class, and will in some ways mean that the poor suffer, if the appropriate legislation is used in response to this made-up threat - which it just happens that quite a lot of scientists believe is real anyway?

That's convenient!

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 16:21:49

'but I think your position has more in common with the Flat Earthers'

Socialists like Brown used the trm 'flat-earthers', but he was voted ooutand is now apparently according to what he said 'an ex-politician'.

Cameron has got real, got with the deal and got with the people and has apparently, allegedly said 'cut the green c**p'

Has he made a reckless dash for freedom from the grasp of the elite? Has he tried to unite with the people and show that we are 'all in it together'?

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 16:25:14

'and you believe that will be to your personal benefit (eg lower your taxes) if it happens.'

No, I have no vested interest. Just because I believe that something is wrong, does not mean that I stand to profit from its removal. I think the socialists will increase the taxes on the middle classes anyway over other issues, since that is what the elite want to happen as they move to curtail living standards and to "squeeze the middle" even further.

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 16:26:03

Final thing to say: I'm pretty sure you can find quite a lot more billionaires who are fervently anti-AGW than are fervently pro. I don't think even the wildest of conspiracy theorists has suggested that the Koch brothers, for example, secretly support climate change initiatives.

Bizarrely enough, I know a number of ultra high net worth people (from tens of millions up to a billionaire). None of them makes the bulk of their money from climate change policies, and quite a few of them would agree with your basic stance, claig, that all such policies should be stopped.

Saudi oil sheikhs are also not huge fans of climate change policies.

I'm not really sure who the billionaire elites are who do favour current policies. Elon Musk maybe? Doesn't exactly feel like a movement....

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 16:33:18

Steaming, it's not just the poor that are intended to suffer, it is the middle classes and working classes and 'hardworking' people. It is all of us.

The clever planners have created a fable that people, human beings, are destroying the planet and they use their media to spread the message, alongside pictures of the polar bear, in the belief that the public are too stupid to understand what is being done to them in transitioning them to a 'sustainable' future of low-growth and low consumption and high energy prices and high costs of living and fat cat financiers and people queueing at foodbanks.

But, today, the Daily Mail reported some good news, some hope on the horizon, that apparently a "source" has claimed that the Prime Minister, who is in it with all of us, has had the courage to apparently cry

"cut the green c**'

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 16:36:09

Elon Musk is a fantastic guy. He has nothing to do with it.

'Bizarrely enough, I know a number of ultra high net worth people (from tens of millions up to a billionaire). None of them makes the bulk of their money from climate change policies, and quite a few of them would agree with your basic stance, claig, that all such policies should be stopped. '

Then they aren't the elite. They are in it together with us.

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 17:06:16

Argh, keep trying to stay away, but this is just too juicy!

It's like a true Yorkshireman sketch with Yorkshire replaced by elite.

So, if I've followed what you've said across your threads the elite is defined as "billionaires who believe in climate change and the politicians they sponsor".

This elite therefore appears to comprise of Hank Paulson, Tom Steyer, players in the carbon credit market (size of maybe £100bn vs $4tn+ a day of forex trading), ex-politicians including Tony Blair, Al Gore and Gordon Brown, plus ... who else? I have no idea.

This elite is apparently the real elite, despite owning rather less of the world's wealth than hydrocarbon billionaires and TNCs (hi Vlad! bonjour Exxon! hello Arab oil sheikhs! howdy Koch brothers!) who are in turn either impotent or unworried by the risks that climate change policies have for their sources of wealth.

Tis an extraordinary world you see around you, Claig. Very different from the world I see.

GeekLovesANYFUCKER Thu 21-Nov-13 17:21:05

Is the Daily Mail your sole source of information? If so it speaks volumes about your capacity to research one's viewpoint.

Besides I am prepared to have more taxes and fewer luxuries if it means we can stem the tides of climate refugees, resource wars and the ensuing chaos and death. Is it a bad thing to live more efficiently?

I do remember 15 years ago you could have a coherent debate with climate change deniers as there where scientists who were not convinced about AGW. But scientists always assume that current opinions is just that, current opinion subject to change following new evidence and review of hypothesis. All data is flawed as that is the nature of reality. Income quantities of flawless data would be great but we will always have to work with limited amounts of flawed data as the real world is not a Platonic ideal.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 17:21:48

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are nothing to do with the elite. They weren't even invited to the Royal Wedding, if I remember rightly.

Lots of socialists are merely puppets of the elite, akin to gofers for them. There are financial players who stand to gain from carbon trading, but they aren't the elite either. They are functionaries for companies whose shares may be held in nominee accounts by people who prefer to remain hidden from public view.

I don't think Arab oil sheikhs have the sort of power the real elite have. Oil sheikhs have money which is often in Swiss bank accounts or in shareholdings in stock markets etc. But real power goes way beyond that and real money is safer even than that.

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 17:32:21

So who are the real elite, then? If it's none of the people I've mentioned, then who the buggery is it?! Some specific names would be good. If you tell me you don't know their names, then how do you know they even exist?

And I would dearly love to know what this special class of assets is that they have access to that keeps their money so safe!

Your previous post seemed to imply the elite included the British Royal Family. Is that right? Is that a permissible thought for a Daily Mail fan? It seems pretty RalphMilibandEvilCommie to me.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 17:33:09

Be under no illusion, what Cameron has done, if it is true, in saying "cut the green c**p', is a very brave thing to do.

He appears to have said it, possibly in a fit of exasperation (and who can blame him for that), within earshot of a "source". When word gets back to the elite about this, they will not be pleased one bit. When they opened their copy of the Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph today, they probably almost choked on their lattes in anger.

I wouldn't be surprised if they set their dogs from the Guardian on Cameron in the next few days with all sorts of articles saying how dare he side with the public.

The elite have studied Hans Christian Andersens's story 'The Emperor's New Clothes' in great detail. They know that it started with one brave boy saying the Emperor has no clothes and that was quickly followed by the entire crowd agreeing. They know that if brave Cameron can apparently say 'cut the green c**p', then it won't be long before the entire Cabinet is saying it and then the game's up.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 17:39:46

'So who are the real elite, then?'

I don't know who they are because they prefer to remain hidden. They are not the actors we see on the screen.

'If you tell me you don't know their names, then how do you know they even exist?'

I believe that God exists, but I dont know Him, and I believe the elite exist, but I don't know who they are.

I believe that "by their fruits ye shall know them", and to know what they want, you only have to listen to what their puppets say.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 21-Nov-13 17:42:48

Brave brave Cameron. I expect the shadowy elite are zipping him into a suitcase as we speak.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 17:49:27

If Cameron has the courage to continue calling a spade a spade and continues to cry 'cut the green c**p', then I think the election will be his by a landslide and deservedly so.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 18:01:29

I would go as far as to say that if in the Leaders' TV debates at the next election, if Cameron actually has the fortitude to look Miliband or Clegg in the eye and utter the words 'cut the green c**p', then the election is as good as over and a Conservative victory is in the bag.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 18:04:17

Polls will go through the roof, Tories will be celebrating in jubilation and progressive think tanks will be at a loss about what to do.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 18:10:13

'Is the Daily Mail your sole source of information?'

No. I read the Guardian to see what the elite think and I read the Daily Mail to see what the people think.

OhYouBadBadKaleds Thu 21-Nov-13 18:21:57

Interestingly the first realisation that increasing CO2 in the atmosphere would lead to a temp rise was in the 1890s, long before politicians etc got involved. Chap called Arrhenius.

It is an incredibly complex and emerging science and thats something that climatologists have struggled to get over to the media. Science is about making errors and having the work peer reviewed so that it becomes more correct as time goes on. The problem is that every error in climate science is scrutinised and held up as an example of which climate science is wrong by those who disbelieve it - it is not.

The other problem is, that climate change is so urgent, that action has to be taken before we have fully understood the problem. We know that it is happening - what is impossible to quantify accurately is how quickly it is happening and exactly what the effects will be. It is an ongoing live experiment on a global scale.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 18:29:39

"The other problem is, that climate change is so urgent, that action has to be taken before we have fully understood the problem."

They told us that a strike on Syria was so urgent that it had to be taken before the UN inspectors reported on who had used chemical weapons.

The public has got wise to their claims of urgency, catastrophe and doom. We've heard it all before, they keep playing the same ol score, what do they take us for?

By the sound of it, even the Rt Hon David Cameron, Old Etonian and Bullingdon Club member, has had enough and has apparently cried out in exasperation 'cut the green c**p'

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 18:38:53

Thanks for the interesting info about Arrhenius. Just looked him up on wikipedia. He thought that warming would be good for the planet and would mean more crop growth and that the population could be fed better. That is of course, the exact opposite of what the current elite want to hear.

This is what he said

"By the influence of the increasing percentage of carbonic acid in the atmosphere, we may hope to enjoy ages with more equable and better climates, especially as regards the colder regions of the earth, ages when the earth will bring forth much more abundant crops than at present, for the benefit of rapidly propagating mankind." (p63)

Arrhenius clearly believed that a warmer world would be a positive change. His ideas remained in circulation, but until about 1960 most scientists doubted that global warming would occur (believing the oceans would absorb CO2 faster than humanity emitted the gas). Most scientists also dismissed the greenhouse effect as implausible for the cause of ice ages, as Milutin Milankovitch had presented a mechanism using orbital changes of the earth (Milankovitch cycles).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svante_Arrhenius

OhYouBadBadKaleds Thu 21-Nov-13 18:41:14

If you cut out the politicians and listen to the climate scientists: people from different nations who actually work in the field the message is climate change is urgent. I know you don't differentiate between politicians and scientists and I realise that there is nothing I could say to change your mind on that.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 18:41:23

"for the benefit of rapidly propagating mankind"

That is diametrically opposed to the wishes of the elite and the message of their puppets.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 18:53:11

"If you cut out the politicians and listen to the climate scientists"

But you can't do that. The IPCC report of 2007 had errors in it. People like Gordon Brown use the IPCC reports when they have their global conferences.

The taxes, the regulations, the policies are set by poticians and puppets, not by scientists, and the puppets tend to ignore scientists who disagree with them and call them "mavericks", "deniers" and Gordon Brown called some people who didn't believe in manmade climate change 'flat-earthers'.

But. today, we read reports that Cameron, in it together at last with the public, has had the guts to express what millions of people across the world have been saying while he was hugging hoodies, eating pasties and dancing on ice with huskies

'cut the green c**p'

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 19:12:18

Prince Charles is not a scientist, but he is all in favour of "sustainable living" and he sometimes addresses politicians.

'The Prince of Wales has condemned climate change sceptics for their "corrosive" impact on public opinion and accused them of playing a "reckless game of roulette" with the planet.

In a speech at a European parliament climate conference in Brussels, he also warned environmentalists they needed to do much more to convince people to adopt a greener lifestyle.

He challenged the green lobby to start selling the benefits of sustainable living instead of focusing on what people should give up.

Questioning why the public had not eagerly embraced sustainable living'

....

"climate change sceptics who deny the vast body of scientific evidence that shows beyond any reasonable doubt that global warming has been exacerbated by human industrialised activity."

The implication, he said, was that those who accept the evidence of hundreds of scientists around the world are "secretly conspiring to undermine and deliberately destroy the entire market-based capitalist system which now dominates the world".

www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/feb/10/prince-charles-climate-change-sceptics

'exacerbated by human industrialised activity'
That is what the climate lobby wants to limit in order to provide what the rich privileged elite call 'sustainable living', which boils down to a cut in living standards. low-growth, low consumption, high energy and water prices, a higher cost of living and a proliferation of financial fat cats ripping off the public and prospering from carbon emission trading whle ordinary people's carbon emissions will probably end up being regulated and restricted either by price or government decree. They think they can convince the public to go along with it by showing them pictures of the polar bear and by saying that the planet will be destroyed if they don't go along with it.

But, today, we are told that our own Prime Minister, has allegedly said
'cut the green c**p'

We can only wish him luck, strength and Godspeed.

OhYouBadBadKaleds Thu 21-Nov-13 19:28:11

I think Claig, that you and I will never agree on this issue but it has been interesting chatting with you.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 19:32:36

OhYou, I don't think we will ever agree until the real facts are one day revealed, but it has been interesting discussing with you and your opposite opinions to mine.

ohtanmybum Thu 21-Nov-13 19:47:35

I don't take much notice of what DC says; he's a a rather weedy reed that bends with the faintest waft of wind. He will do or say anything that he thinks, or is told to think, will keep him in No 10. Advice from the Aussie Oracle may help or hinder, we shall see.

Claig I am fresh back from Hudson Bay, where I managed to have a quick word with the polar bear, in between her photo' calls. She sends her regards. Her view is that, as the 'intelligent' species, humans should take better care of their home territory -"You need to stop shiting where you eat and sleep." was her message as she posed on her ice floe.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 20:05:27

ohtanmybum, glad to see you back from Hudson Bay. Hope you had a great time. Did you have to fight past six deep BBC film crews preparing more of their polar bear and ethical planet, climate catastrophe specials for the public? Did you see any members of the elite there, dressed in hoodies and baseball caps, trying to get a photo shoot with the polar bear?

'"You need to stop shiting where you eat and sleep." was her message as she posed on her ice floe'
So she wants the people to have bigger houses rather than the 'sustainable' ones that the elite want them to have?

Did she also explain that polar bears are thriving and growing in number and that the elite have miscounted them when flying past in their private jets and looking out of the window?

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 20:11:51

Did you see any former or current pop stars over there? The elite usually tell them to get involved and spread the climate catastrophe message to a disbelieving public.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 20:14:58

Was Russell Brand there or is he going soon and will BBC Newsnight do a special on him in Hudson Bay or the Arctic Circle now that Cameron appears to have broken ranks and bolted for freedom with his cry of 'cut the green c**p'?

ohtanmybum Thu 21-Nov-13 20:23:11

Claig - What was it that DC said again? And thanks for the tip about recognising 'the elite', a group of them just shot past my house on their skateboards.wink

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 20:32:08

'What was it that DC said again?'

Apparently, a "source" said that it was 'cut the green c**' and there has been much rejoicing in Heaven when they read the Daily Mail there this morning.

'And thanks for the tip about recognising 'the elite', a group of them just shot past my house on their skateboards.'

The giveaway is if a large limousine with a taxpayer funded chauffeur is following their skateboards in order to carry their shoes and papers.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 20:34:31

We'll find out what Hell thinks about it tomorrow. They don't get the Daily Mail there, only the Guardian. Apparently that is one of their punishments.

ohtanmybum Thu 21-Nov-13 20:36:44

grin

HomeHelpMeGawd Thu 21-Nov-13 22:54:29

Claig, if you find it easier to believe that a group of anonymous people exist who have dramatically more money and influence than people such as the Kochs, Branson, oil sheikhs, et al, and that they are in cahoots with the Guardian, the royal family and the BBC, to promote climate change policy, then you are clearly happier on the wildest shores of conspiracy theory. Enjoy your time there. Just don't start spouting stuff about my co-religionists, please. We had a bad enough time with those kind of conspiracies in the 30s, we don't need any more today.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 23:20:46

Branson. He's a joke. He gets involved in campaigns. The elite don't, they tell others to. They knight pop stars and others for spreading the word to the public.

I haven't mentioned religion, because the elite aren't religious. If they were, then they woudn't be trying to screw the rest of humanity, because their global warming scam is only the first small step in what they have planned for humanity.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 23:29:35

This is what Prince Charles said in an ironic kind of sense, dismissing it

"The implication, he said, was that those who accept the evidence of hundreds of scientists around the world are "secretly conspiring to undermine and deliberately destroy the entire market-based capitalist system which now dominates the world"

Sounds pretty close to the truth. But he doesn't explain why.

Even the Occupy movement and the BBC's, the New Statesman's and the Guardian's favourite, Russell Brand, think that there is a 1% elite. The difference is that they don't understand what the 1% are doing and why they are doing it.

claig Thu 21-Nov-13 23:32:31

Stalin and Lenin called the progressives in the West "useful idiots".
I think Russell Brand is the 1%'s "useful idiot" par excellence.

claig Fri 22-Nov-13 00:37:24

'The deputy prime minister, Nick Clegg, inflamed the row on Thursday by saying the green cost on bills " isn't all crap ".

www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/21/no-10-cold-water-david-cameron-green-crap

Who needs the return of Monty Python? This is better entertainment than the spam sketch. An investigative journalist should ask Nick Clegg to explain which bits are crap

And now we have David Davies, Tory MP for Monmouth, saying that 'cut the green crap' would make a great election manifesto slogan

A GWENT Tory MP has waded into the row over whether the Prime Minister said “cut the green crap” – saying it would make a great election manifesto slogan.

....

He later told the Argus: “I do not think the science is settled. It is far from clear that CO2 has been responsible for the minor increase in temperature over the last 100 years.

“However even if you believe it has it makes no sense for the UK alone to levy green taxes onto home owners and businesses.

“These taxes have pushed up prices for householders and damaged business without having any impact on global carbon emissions.

“Despite all the doom mongering predictions there has been no increase in temperature for 15 years. It is the economic climate we should be worrying about which is why I think the time has come to repeal green taxes.”

www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/10825957.Tory_Monmouth_MP_says__quot_cut_the_green_crap_quot__should_be_election_slogan/

claig Fri 22-Nov-13 01:15:30

Very good analysis in the Guardian. Seems to think that Cameron has said something similar to this and that teh Sun and the Daily Mail are right about their story. I'm not surprised about the BBC reporting that Cameron had denied it. My guess is that they want to do damage limitation to their green agenda.

"That said, Downing Street did not actually deny that Cameron had said this this morning (and I was surprised to see the BBC and others reporting that he had ). A Downing Street spokesman put out a statement saying: "We do not recognise this phrase." This is a piece of spin doctor lingo (that may have originated with New Labour) that normally means: "We did not put this out ourselves, we want to distance ourselves from it, but we cannot say for certain that the words in the story were never actually used." Subsequently Sky's Joey Jones reported a slightly stronger denial:"

"Cameron and 'green crap' - what should we believe?

1. Generally, although not everything that appears in newspapers is true, most of it. This story appears in two newspapers, the Sun (where it is the splash) and the Daily Mail (where it is on page two). Both papers attribute the key quote to a "senior Tory source". The Sun says:

A senior Tory source said: "The prime minister is going round Number 10 saying: 'We have got to get rid of all this green crap'. He is totally focussed on it.

"We used to say 'Vote Blue, Go Green', now it's 'Vote Blue, Get Real'."

And the Mail says:

The source said: ‘He’s telling everyone, “We’ve got to get rid of all this green crap.” He’s absolutely focused on it.’

Tory high command has also privately abandoned Mr Cameron’s pre-election mantra ‘vote blue, go green’. ‘It’s vote blue, get real, now – and woe betide anyone who doesn’t get the memo,’ the source said.

Both stories were written by lobby correspondents. It is common for lobby correspondents from rival papers to team up to invite contacts out for lunch, where the conversation is normally conducted on "lobby terms" (ie, nothing reported will be attributed to a named source). This seems to have happened on this occasions. Sometimes you will hear aggrieved politicians claims that lobby journalists on these occasions distort quotes, but in my experience these complaints are rarely justified and, if the Sun and the Daily Mail are saying a "senior Tory source" said this, I'm happy to accept that he or she did.

2. But was the source quoting Cameron verbatim, or was he/she paraphrasing? In other words, is it Cameron himself saying: "We've got to get rid of all this green crap." Or was the source using his own phrase to paraphrase the gist of what Cameron has been saying? Both are possible, although the second explanation was more likely. The source does not seem to have been referring to a specific conversation. Instead, he was summarising a message that Cameron has supposedly being giving out generally.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/21/call-clegg-live-politics-blog

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now