Has the world gone completely mad??

(75 Posts)
IrnBruTheNoo Tue 19-Nov-13 10:12:56

What's with all the shocking stories?? Bloody hell, you couldn't even make this up sad

And they're making money out of it. The dark side to freedom of speech....

www.examiner.com/article/another-couple-found-guilty-of-murder-for-parenting-by-to-train-up-a-child

MrsWilliamBodie Tue 19-Nov-13 10:34:04

That's harrowing. This quote from the author "I could break his anger in two days. He would be too scared to get angry. On the third day he would draw into a quiet shell and obey" is absolutely chilling - my heart breaks for any child who has parents that follow this.

IrnBruTheNoo Tue 19-Nov-13 10:36:43

It's truly sickening isn't it? How anyone can treat another human being like this is beyond me. It is incomprehensible.

sonu678 Tue 19-Nov-13 10:37:48

who thinks this book is worth spending money on to print? who thinks that having kids who obey without thought are going to make good adults?
I would like the publishers and distributors of this book punished as much as the parents

We used to follow similar shit to this. Until we got a fucking clue.

Is Amazon still selling this shit?

ProfPlumSpeaking Tue 19-Nov-13 11:52:39

That's awful sad I do hope that reputable bookstores and online sellers (eg Amazon) refuse to stock that book - does anyone know?

Still available on Amazon AFAIK, and we still have plenty of friends who follow it.

Gileswithachainsaw Tue 19-Nov-13 11:55:20

Gotta love the front cover angry !! Sucker people in with a pic of a happy smiling toddler.

I can't believe it was ever printed. What are the sellers thinking. I hope the authors and the parents of the hurt /killed children rot in hell angry

LEMisafucker Tue 19-Nov-13 12:01:24

Have just checked, you can buy this shit on amazon sad Surely this shouldn't be allowed angry Disgusting

LEMisafucker Tue 19-Nov-13 12:04:05

"Still available on Amazon AFAIK, and we still have plenty of friends who follow it." WHY are those people still your friends? Are you in the states? fuck, if i found that book in anyone's house that i knew, i;d be calling social services

ProfPlumSpeaking Tue 19-Nov-13 12:06:04

So we need to alert Amazon and get them to stop selling this book. It occurs to me that, in the UK at least, selling it after having its contents drawn to their attention might constitute a criminal offence as it is inciting violence at a level that is illegal in the UK. Anyone know how to contact them at a senior level?

I use friends in it's broadest sense. People of our acquaintance sound better? The whole thing is about breaking the child's will. It's utterly brutal. Can't tell you the relief I felt the day we decided never to hit our children again.

LEMisafucker Tue 19-Nov-13 12:10:39

The first chapter in that book is called "switch your child" and goes on to talk about not swapping (which is what i thought) but setting up training sessions using something the child wants and then "switching" their hands until they learn that grabbing things results in punishment angry. Then there is another chapter about "the rod" and "applying the rod" They actually think you should hit your fucking child before it even does anything wrong - i actually feel sick - These bastards should be in prison, not making $1.7 million dollars a year.

LEMisafucker Tue 19-Nov-13 12:11:37

I agree with prof plum - how do we do this???

0208 636 9280 is the PR number.

wem Tue 19-Nov-13 12:30:31

PaulMcGannsmistress Can you explain why you started using these kind of techniques? I understand you realised it was wrong but I can't help reading the description and thinking you've got to be pretty messed up to think this is the right way to treat your child.

I read that article and felt that couple must have been abusive hideous people, not just misled by a parenting book?

Oh definitely messed up - brain washed into something called Patriarchal Christianity which is what the Pearls are into - wifely submission and all that.

Can we start by writing lots of reviews on the book?

Could ask NSPCC CEO to write an official one ?

tootiredtothinkofanickname Tue 19-Nov-13 12:42:57

Disgusting book. I contacted Amazon and told them that they will not see a penny from me anymore until they withdraw this book. Apparently most online retailers started pulling it.

http://lulastic.co.uk/activism/online-retailers-begin-pulling-to-train-up-a-child/

Worth MN taking a stand too, I think? I also wonder if it is legal to justify such child abuse?

But to be clear, the book we used was called Shepherding a Child's Heart by Tedd Tripp, not the Pearl's book.

tootiredtothinkofanickname Tue 19-Nov-13 12:45:21
IrnBruTheNoo Tue 19-Nov-13 12:45:45

I am not a member of Amazon but can randoms just write a bad review?

octopusinastringbag Tue 19-Nov-13 12:47:49

Another bad review just gone in. I am going to save a fortune not spending money with Amazon until they remove this book from sale.

tootiredtothinkofanickname Tue 19-Nov-13 12:50:44

And how exactly is this better, PaulMcGanns? From what I see it still advocates hitting a child on the bare bottocks so it causes pain... all in the name of religion. I feel sick.

smudgedgraffiti Tue 19-Nov-13 12:52:33

Yes anyone can write a review, you'll prob have to "register" but it's completely free. I've already "reviewed" it.

How is what better?

MissMiniTheMinx Tue 19-Nov-13 12:54:36

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IrnBruTheNoo Tue 19-Nov-13 12:55:50

Miss that's what I wanted to say at first, but didn't want to be seen as casting judgement on a whole nation. I appreciate not all Americans follow this book, but not surprised it originated from America either....

LadyFlumpalot Tue 19-Nov-13 13:02:18

They also wrote "Created to be his Help Meet" to tell women where they are going wrong in marriage these days.

AnandaTimeIn Tue 19-Nov-13 13:08:20

OMG, that is so disgusting!

That poor child. How those parents ever got through the adoption process I can't imagine...

That book should be banned for advocating abuse to children.

tootiredtothinkofanickname Tue 19-Nov-13 13:12:13

Does anyone know how we could get an official MN campaign against it?

IrnBruTheNoo Tue 19-Nov-13 13:14:59

I've just put in a bad review to Amazon about this particular book.

youretoastmildred Tue 19-Nov-13 13:15:55

PaulMcGannsMistress, if you don't mind me asking, where are you?
Is this absolutely mainstream near you?
What happens if you argue against it?
Would you say this is a new resurgence of ideas like this; or a hangover from the past (ideas like this never went away) where you are?

bemybebe Tue 19-Nov-13 13:17:36

Amazon knows about this book twenty times over. The number of petitions and bad reviews and people changing the time to "-A guide to child abuse" and Amazon changing it back to the publishers' version is too large to count. This book is from the 90s.

I understand that Amazon's view is that they will sell any book that is legal to sell. This book is legal to sell, unfortunately.

I spoke to NSPCC about it and they had their lawyers looking into this. They cannot force Amazon to stop selling it. However, the conclusion was very clear that following these instructions is ILLEGAL.

I would ostracize any person keeping this book from my personal circle and I would certainly alert social services about their parenting methods.

In the midlands of the UK. It's fairly mainstream in our old church. We still visit occasionally and I am pretty much ostracised by those who know I don't follow the party line anymore. In Patriarchy circles, ideas like this are very popular.

tootiredtothinkofanickname Tue 19-Nov-13 13:21:45

I genuinely don't understand. If following what the book says is illegal, how can the book itself be legal? By the same reasoning, looking at images of child abuse would be legal, but actually abusing children would be illegal? I must be missing something here.

bemybebe Tue 19-Nov-13 13:21:45

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bemybebe Tue 19-Nov-13 13:25:02

tootired I am not a lawyer, so have no idea about the legal arguments here. I am just going by what NCPCC guys told me several months ago/a year ago, when I first became aware of this book.

sad

I am not aware of a lot of books that are actually banned and illegal to sell/read. Visual material is a different matter.

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy Tue 19-Nov-13 13:33:07

I remember when this story broke out, she had been locked outside to 'discipline' her about her attitude, she collapsed, and the parents didn't take direct action because of their dogmatic view for quite a while. There are some articles with their emergency call/being interviewed and it's chilling how these children are talked about. They are objects towards a goal of being seen as good disciples and nothing else.

This type of 'discipline' is heavily pushed in a lot of evangelical circles (the American right-wing style ones). Even in less physical methods, the very detached, 'they're born wicked and you have to break them to comply with your will for them' mentality is taught over and over. I was raised in this environment and it's only gotten worse in my experience. The push to use this type of things is being pushed a religious right thing to do to create soldiers of God. Even more heartbreaking, these same circles are also part of the movement pushing to adopt more kids from abroad. Adoption laws vary from state to state in America and in some abroad adoption is quite easy compared to local ones - this couple had at least two children adopted alongside some birth children if I remember correctly - and there have been a lot of reports going around about this violent method of parenting has become racialised through this (seriously, there are writings from these organizations and form groups that encourage this that discuss how children from these countries "need an even firmer hand" and have extremely abusive measures and encourage using birth children/white church children as disciplines (bullies) to get these adopted children to break.

It's disturbing, disgusting, abuse. Many people are fighting this sort of thing, but many of those in charge are also part of these evangelical movement and/or at least get a lot of their votes and funding from them. The first step many are pushing for is better regulation in the States of adoptions from abroad because those children face the worst of it, then move onto abuse laws because that will be far harder with the control the church has.

IrnBruTheNoo Tue 19-Nov-13 13:34:24

bemy but the book originated from the USA, and from and American couple who penned it. The negative comments are not completely unreasonable, this is a very emotive subject.

IrnBruTheNoo Tue 19-Nov-13 13:34:39

*an

LEMisafucker Tue 19-Nov-13 13:35:26

Why why WHY would you follow a patriachal society?? ignores the fact i am a catholic Please tell me you have broken free from these nutters PaulMcGanns'

youretoastmildred Tue 19-Nov-13 13:37:17

Interesting - so much of this is familiar to me from the recent past of my culture (Irish Catholic - big families, beatings-happy, strict gender roles, original sin) - but in that case there has been an outcry and things that commonly happened in schools and orphanages are being considered outrageous and criminal now. Sad and horrible that this is mainstream in some circles, and so much harder to get at what is happening in private homes (nowadays - back then they could pretty much do what they wanted in institutions but you can't now, thank god)

Yes, I'm free from it now (and indeed all religion). MN was instrumental in my escape.

TwoThreeFourSix Tue 19-Nov-13 13:40:39

That article made me want to cry. How the hell can people want to hit babies and children?

Evil

bemybebe Tue 19-Nov-13 13:41:03

Irn I am not going to argue that this couple are not "loons" as I totally agree with that. Calling the US "land of loons" is akin calling the UK "land of terrorists" (by the place of birth of 7/7 bombers)... so no, not at all reasonable, sorry.

RevelsRoulette Tue 19-Nov-13 13:41:08

So basically this is a book detailing how to brutalise your child?

Vile. Vile to write it and vile to follow it. What are they thinking?

And it's a 'Christian' book?
Christian?

'turn the other cheek, suffer the little children, children are a heritage from above, story of the good samaritan, fathers do not provoke your children lest they become discouraged, be kind to one another, do unto others as you would have them do unto you' Christian? You know, that one?

Yeah.

bemybebe Tue 19-Nov-13 13:44:03

And, this is happening in the UK also.

This attitude to children is sickening, nobody needs to engage anti-US rhetoric in their indignation.

LEMisafucker Tue 19-Nov-13 13:48:00

Really pleased to read that PMM

AliceinWinterWonderland Tue 19-Nov-13 13:53:37

Yes, I think pinning it on the US is a bit ridiculous and crosses the line IMO. There are nutters in the US just like there are in the UK. That doesn't mean everyone in the US is okay with child abuse any more than it means everyone in the UK is okay with child abuse.

Stick to the facts. Please don't cloud the issue by bringing nationality into it.

I can confirm it's not just a US thing. We went to a conference about the book we followed and it was utterly jam packed.

NandH Tue 19-Nov-13 14:04:32

Speechless...

I can't believe a book has been made on how to abuse babies and children, and how has that book not been banned :-O

Awful.

hopskipandthump Tue 19-Nov-13 14:11:25

PaulMcGannsMistress - if you don't mind me asking, how did you get into Patriarchal Christianity? Were you born into it, or evangelised? I am happy to hear the MN was instrumental in you getting out of it - how did that hpapen?

IrnBruTheNoo Tue 19-Nov-13 14:15:24

It all started from the US, just like the evangelical religion is flowing over to the UK and becoming more and more popular....

I was evangelised into it. Come from a bit of a broken background and I found it comforting for a time to have such a black and white view of the world. Got involved with a number of 'ministries', like Vision Forum (the leader of which has just owned up to having an affair) and got suckered into something called 'Quiverfull' which is related to all of this and advocates no contraception. Was heavily into the wifely submission thing.

Joining MN led me to be challenged, on any number of different things, and introduced me to different ideas that helped me to understand I didn't have to be the perfect domestic slave and baby machine, and that I actually didn't have to view myself as the moon, orbiting around my husband's vision.

AliceinWinterWonderland Tue 19-Nov-13 14:20:24

Yes, I've heard the quiverfull movement follows this teaching.

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy Tue 19-Nov-13 14:39:05

No one is saying that only Americans do this. But this book is American, this movement originates in America, this girl died in America after being adopted from abroad purely for the purpose of putting her through this to kill her culture and "save" her, and the American evangelical movement has political power in America that cannot be ignored if we're going to ask how tragedies like this happen and how they can be prevented.

The American exceptionalism indoctrination that has become embedded within the American evangelical movement has resulted in fanatics that think adopting kids from abroad or from 'lesser' ethnicity groups like mine and beating Christ and White American nationalism into them makes them pure souls and turns children into Christian soldiers. The treatment is straight of our forced residential schooling.

I am American from an evangelical background. I have family members who are evangelical ministers, their culture and identities stripped and reduced to a horrible family secret to ensure they fit in with the nationalistic ideology of the American evangelical movement. They may advertise their violent parenting methods or their financial prosperity BS abroad, but the main thing that killed this poor child and so many like her who are adopted from abroad to fill this saint image is the ideology that these kids are less than human. The methods used on these adopted children are even more extreme than in the book, they include having the child live outside like an animal to discipline them, which is what happened here. When this and several other cases came forward, it was blown that there are forums filled with people trying to be more and more extreme specifically to these adopted children and encouraging their white birth children and white children from their churches to bully them, to beat them into submission to break them. I myself have had American evangelicals threaten to kidnap my children because of my beliefs and because I reconnected with my ethnicity and its culture in order to put my kids through this. You ignore the national and racial elements and you miss why this is happening and why these children are being tortured and killed. This is an extension of the boarding school movement. It's coming over here but the elements that caused this girls' death and caused the threats on my kids are not here yet.

It's like Operation Christmas Child - it started in America and the American and British versions have two very different faces, the trickle of the underlying problems only come through later once better established.

It may be crap, but in that case don't buy it.

As for Amazon selling it, what do you want them to do? Ban books you don't like?

I have a long list I'd like to ban, but that solution is worse than the problem.

madhairday Tue 19-Nov-13 15:41:06

I feel so sick at this.

This is why those of us who may self describe as 'evangelical' yet in the original sense of the word are slowly backing off using such a label, a label which also describes such sick and twisted practise.

I'm so glad you found your way out of this, Paul - 'patriarchal Christianity', the 'quiverful' movement and anyone using the verse 'spare the rod, spoil the child' in this utterly twisted way (a verse which means nothing like what they advocate, in fact) all make me shiver.

I'm a christian, btw, but about as far on the other side of this as you can get, and would say these practises are completely anti christian, and should be ashamed of using the name. sad

ShowMeYourTARDIS Tue 19-Nov-13 16:25:45

The Duggars (American couple with fifty bajillion biological children and a reality show) endorse the book.

Lilka Tue 19-Nov-13 18:18:26

I followed the trial from the beginning, it took weeks. Was waiting for sentencing

That book is dangerous, abusive and stupid and I wish Amazon would stop selling it

There wasn't any sign that they could be abusive before they adopted Hanna and Immanuel. I personally think they were totally unprepared for the reality of parenting older children from abroad, had very unrealistic expectations, either did not receive or did not listen to guidance on parenting older traumatised children from other countries (its nothing like parenting secure birth children so you can't say 'oh but i've already raised 3/4 children, i know what I'm doing' because you probably don't know what you're doing actually) and then failed to bond or attach to them quickly in addition to whatever issues the children had (none of which sound at all extreme to me, but nonetheless would not be things the Williams would know how to deal with appropriately), so they started going down a path of trying to use ever more punitive discipline methods and then withdrawing emotionally and accepting the lack of attachment/bond.

It is a small problem in adoption in the US - affects a very small proportion of adoptions, but it's very worrying - which is that the fundamentalist movements are very big on international adoption, and tout it as 'true religion' (based on the Bible at James 1:27 "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress"), saving children so they know Jesus Christ and become Christians, rescuing them from wherever they used to live so they can have all the trappings of life in America (or Europe or wherever), etc etc. A small number of fundamentalists don't go into adoption because they have a genuine deep desire to raise another child, but because they believe it's something they really should do and they are being called to do by God as an expression of true religion and God's adoption of them into the flock. They often get little or no training at all on the issues of the children they will adopt, and may expect their (older) child to be grateful, happy to embrace Christianity, and they will expect to quickly love and adore their new child and will NOT expect the issues the children actually have, which could include challenging behaviour, PTSD, attachment disorder, sensory issues and so on. Combine this with the certain groups of fundamentalists who believe in more punitive discipline methods, and you have a total recipe for disaster. Quote from the article below - "With so many adoptees going to families for which attachment and love were defined as immediate obedience, it was a mismatch of children's needs and parents' propensities on an epic scale"

On this subject, I recommend this article - www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/04/christian-evangelical-adoption-liberia 3 pages to it

And of course I stress the words 'some, 'some' and 'a few'. This isn't a castigation of ALL very religious who feel called to adopt, but this is a very real problem which requires addressing.

bsc Tue 19-Nov-13 18:50:40

Paul- did you used to be a 'very good looking' poster?

I've had a number of NNs, bsc not sure which one you might mean.

ProfPlumSpeaking Tue 19-Nov-13 19:01:38

backon

"As for Amazon selling it, what do you want them to do? Ban books you don't like? "

No, not ban books I don't like but yes to banning books that encourage child abuse.

ProfPlumSpeaking Tue 19-Nov-13 19:05:26

Actually, like I said earlier, I think its sale might well be illegal in the same way that producing a manual on how to make a bomb would be. It is giving instructions on how to commit a crime (in this case abusing children) and advocating doing so.

LegoAcupuncture Tue 19-Nov-13 19:14:02

I had no idea books like this even existed shock. What a disgusting "method" of child rearing. Blanket training a baby by beating it with an instrument if it tries to leave the blanket sad

PailMcGann pleased to hear you managed to break free from all of this.

ProfPlumSpeaking I know a place you can buy a book that tells you to cut bits off of babies and kill pregnant women.

It's called 'The Holy Bible', you may have heard of it.

Amazon is a shop. If you want something banned you need to get the government to do it - and if it's that bad why wouldn't they?. You can't expect retailers to act as judge and jury.

BerstieSpotts Tue 19-Nov-13 19:21:57

Paul I think you are very brave to have come out of that and put an end to it in your family. flowers I must admit I didn't realise it was happening in the UK - I had (naively) assumed it was all fundamentalist American Christians. I suppose it's kept more private here? The US seems more open to the idea of corporal punishment in general, especially in some states.

Last time all of this Pearl stuff came up in the news, I read a heartbreaking blog by a woman who had always followed this type of teaching/discipline with her children and then one day realised (through a conversation I think, I can't remember) that the "rod" referred to in the bible was actually something to ward off predators and keep the children safe in that way. She was so horrified by this and resolved to change, but the description of how she felt having realised what she'd been doing was so sad.

hardboiledpossum Tue 19-Nov-13 21:19:41

shepherding a child's heart is fairly common in evangelical Christian churches in the UK. I was given the book myself by family friends. this is why smacking needs to be made illegal- there is too much grey area.

MissMiniTheMinx Tue 19-Nov-13 22:08:20

You ignore the national and racial elements and you miss why this is happening and why these children are being tortured and killed thank you TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy

I am sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my intention.

I think it short sighted to separate the evangelical/radical Christian church from the political right wing and imperialism. It is all part of the same ideology of Christian Nationalism and capitalism. Although I'm certain a lot of the mainstream converts are told to worship god and keep their mind on less material matters, the leaders have other deities, mainly money. many of these patriarchal, capitalist christians have money tied up in prostitution and pornography and by extension drugs and other unholy activities.

I have signed the petition to try and get amazon to stop selling the book but as with the Radical/church/imperialists...money is their god.

I hope the poor little girl is at peace and those sick bastards that spread this message that child abuse is sanctioned by G_d rot in hell.

SconeRhymesWithGone Wed 20-Nov-13 02:50:51

The article linked to above is by Kathryn Joyce. I have read her book referenced in the article. It is very compelling:
The Child Catchers: Rescue, Trafficking and the New Gospel of Adoption

I also recommend her earlier book: Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement.

ProfPlumSpeaking Wed 20-Nov-13 09:00:55

back the Bible is utterly "suis generis".

ProfPlumSpeaking I know you had to say something but saying it's "suis generis" is very nearly saying nothing.

The bible is actually just one of many religious books written and is itself just a compilation. If it were truly unique that would be irrelevant anyway. You may as well have replied that it has words in it.

What it does have is exhortations to abuse and murder. Which allowed me to point out that the vast majority of people do not think that books encouraging abuse should be banned if they are popular.

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