Another case of Asian men raping an underage girl - cue the outrage

(46 Posts)
BasilBabyEater Sun 06-Oct-13 09:31:59

And the analysis about what it is about this ethnic group that makes them want to rape children.

BBC coverage here

Oh, hang on, none of the perpetrators are Asian after all. They're all white. So where is the national outrage? Where are the pages and pages of analysis asking what the problem with white men is? Where the commentaries demanding that white people do something about their dangerous men?

Has anyone else spotted what the connection with all the perpetrators is? Guess what, it ain't race.

Where is the mainstream media response to this case? Why isn't there one?

SanityClause Sun 06-Oct-13 09:44:58

That poor child. What has her life been like that she would continue to let these men abuse her like this?

I did notice that all the men appear to have access to other children, if that's what you mean by the connection? But then, most men do, I would have thought. And unfortunately, if they were sexually interested in young girls, would make sure they had access to them.

I absolutely agree with you comment about the media. If anything, I fear we'd get a load of victim blaming.

heidihole Sun 06-Oct-13 09:51:12

How do you know they're all white?

Why do you think they're not Asian? Is there a group photo somewhere - I'm on my phone but can't see one on that article.

BasilBabyEater Sun 06-Oct-13 10:15:41

here you go heidihole, the photos they've published here are all of white men.

Actually that's a good point, maybe they're not all white - maybe a couple of them are from a different ethnicity?

The point is, the media have not had a frenzy about how the problem of abusing girls is a racial issue - something to do with the values and culture of a specific ethnic group. The thing all these perpetrators have in common is that they're men. What I'm getting at is that sexual abuse isn't a race issue, it's a sex one; all of our society has a misogyny problem, not just certain minority ethnic groups.

ubik Sun 06-Oct-13 10:19:55

Are you referring to the recent cases of grooming in Rotherham? Surely not all cases are the same, the motivations are not the same...

I don't think white men exploiting children is ignored - quite the reverse - I think the the Rotherham case the problem was that police were holding back as they feared accusations of racism and that is why the ethnic backgrounds of the perpetrators became such an issue.

I completely agree with the point you are making.

Roshbegosh Sun 06-Oct-13 10:25:57

Exactly what ubik says. Fears about accusations of racism was a major factor in the police not tackling the grooming cases for years. That and their view that the children victims made what I recall them describing as a lifestyle choice.

BrawToken Sun 06-Oct-13 10:26:11

Very good point, very well made. Poor wee girl.

crescentmoon Sun 06-Oct-13 10:30:21

Totally agree with you op I'm glad for justice being done for the victims in all these cases

duchesse Sun 06-Oct-13 10:33:15

When I was growing up, I had a fair few of my parents' old children books from the 40s and 50s. Many of the stories in the annuals seemed to feature dusky menacing gentlemen from the East. I guess the modern media continues to thrive on the same brand of prurient sensationalism.

BasilBabyEater Sun 06-Oct-13 16:27:07

I think the belief that it was a "lifestyle choice" by the girls concerned, was probably more of a factor in the police's unwillingness to investigate, than racial sensitivities tbh.

I think if the girls had been middle class girls going to private schools, all the racial sensitivities would have been irrelevant.

AnyFucker Sun 06-Oct-13 16:31:46

The sentences are a fucking joke. As per.

Wannabestepfordwife Sun 06-Oct-13 18:47:26

Absolutely disgusting story! Really hope the poor girl is getting the help she needs to overcome her ordeal.

I think with this case their has been some reporting restrictions (and rightly so the victim needs protecting) whereas with the Rochdale and Oxford gangs the press were able to print graphic details which horrified people.

Also with this case from what we can see the victims mum went to the police they found the perpetrators and charged them whereas in the above cases the authorities were aware but didn't seem to do anything.

I just hope the god the victim was treated sensitively by the defence council

GoshAnneGorilla Sun 06-Oct-13 18:51:02

I completely agree with the "lifestyle choices" hindering investigations - a lethal combination of classism and "empowered sex worker" myths.

edam Mon 07-Oct-13 08:35:52

The minutes of meetings of Rochdale and Rotherham multi-agency meetings make it clear that 'undermining local cohesion' (i.e. fears of stoking racism) were an issue in those areas. In Bradford, Anne Cryer MP was accused of racism and shouted down when she tried to raise the issue of gangs grooming and raping girls - she tried for years to expose this wrongdoing.

This latest case is being reported. It's not being hushed up. I don't see why Asian and Kurdish men (Kurdish in Rotherham) raping children is somehow less of an issue than white men raping children.

The only difference is that cases of rape and exploitation by gangs of white men have been taken more seriously by SS and police (although victims were still blamed and accused of being complicit) while the same crimes where the perpetrators were Asian were hushed up. To the extent where a father who tried to rescue his daughter was charged with racially-aggravated assault.

Read The Times series of investigations before you shout 'racism'. They dug up the local authority/multi-agency records. It is appalling and shameful that councils and police were racist towards the victims (who included black girls as well as white, FWIW). It is appalling and shameful that they protected the perpetrators.

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 07-Oct-13 11:42:38

Edam - what the O.P is about is media perceptions of the case, because certainly a lot if the media coverage of the Rotherham and Bradford cases did focus on the race of the perpetrators.

I would also say, that considering the small numbers of cases so far, what we've seen in unfortunately only the tip of the iceberg with regards to grooming cases, so it far too early to make any claims about the authorities being less hesitant to prosecute ethnic minorities.

Bradford and Rotherham used every spurious piece of reasoning in the book to justify doing nothing in these cases. IMO, racism, amongst other reasons was used to justify inaction, rather than fears of racism being the primary reason for the inaction.

I don't t feel that, those authorities would have behaved any differently if the perpetrators had been white, just that they would have used different excuses.

P.S "cry racism" is offensive, as if people frequently exaggerate, or lie about racism, when generally there is far more racism in society then the white majority are willing to believe.

edam Mon 07-Oct-13 13:15:19

I did not say 'cry racism'. If someone else did, you should make it clear your comment refers to them, not me. It's highly offensive to make it appear I said anything of that sort.

I said Anne Cryer was shouted down and accused of racism. That is accurate. Do a google search if you doubt me.

It is investigative journalism that finally forced the authorities to confront street grooming and gang rapes. The authorities were only too happy to ignore these poor children until the media started covering it. The Times deserves recognition for their role in booting SS and the police up the backside so hopefully in future children will be protect, or at least justice stands more chance of being achieved.

PatPig Mon 07-Oct-13 13:35:57

I don't quite see the point of the OP.

There are no 'issues' with arresting and investigating ordinary white child abusers.

There were or are 'issues' with arresting and investigating Asian abusers.

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 07-Oct-13 14:15:14

Edam, you said "shout 'racism'", when instructing us to read the Times. Not much difference.

Again, my point about the wider media reaction still stands, as does my point about it being impossible to conclude that the authorities are keener/happier to prosecute white sex offenders then they are to prosecute Asian sex offenders.

as far as im aware there is just as much outrage when a white man rapes a girl as there is when an Asian man does it.

Blu Mon 07-Oct-13 14:39:24

Untwist - yes, there is as much outrage about the rape, whoever the perpertrator.

However the point the OP is making is that when it is an Asian perpertrator, there is also outrage against / about the ethnic group the perpertrators come from as well as the rapist.

And the added complication is that race affects the approach to invstigation.

So the OPs point is valid. None of this around the horrific case of thee men who are indeed all white.

The commoin factor, OP? Well, I note that 5 ou of the 12 men have names beginning with 'M', but this is probably not relevant?

Ooooh, I get it, they are all MEN!

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 07-Oct-13 14:44:54

Blu - quite. When a white man rapes a woman or child, it is someone who has done something terrible (the "male" aspect of the crime is never discussed much in mainstream media)

When an Asian man rapes a woman or child, their culture is also blamed and interrogated in a way that doesn't happen with white offenders.

PatPig Mon 07-Oct-13 15:13:18

This whole thread is ridiculous.

This is ONE girl who advertised herself on a dating website, claiming she was 18.

She was contacted by numerous men. Some of them - the non-criminal ones - after finding out she was 13 dropped all contact.

The rest carried on and for that reason are facing various sentences.

There was no grooming gang, or co-conspiracy here.

We know that in the past, the 1970s and 1980s, say, that powerful white men abused children in children's homes. They were protected because the men were powerful and the girls marginalised.

We also know that recently groups ordinary Asian men groomed and abused children in numerous cases across the country, and that the (white) professionals charged with protecting the children were more worried about 'community relations' than stopping abuse.

Quite rightly there was considerable outrage that abuse was covered up because of fear of racism, and quite rightly this angle is mentioned in this cases, because multiple public bodies spent over a decade ensuring that children could continue to be abused by Asian men because of 'racism'.

Now if there is any evidence at all that the race of these men (all white I think, although that's not so much of a surprise as the girl in question appears to be from North Yorkshire, which is one of the whitest areas in the country) was relevant or somehow hindered the investigation, or that white abusers have been institutionally protected for being white, then it should be mentioned.

But as there isn't, it just looks ridiculous.

edam Mon 07-Oct-13 16:35:21

Well said, Patpig.

WahIzzit Mon 07-Oct-13 17:41:50

Fact is the men involved who discovered the girl's actual age and continued with her committed the crime of underage sex, same as many of the convicted Asian men, gangs or not. However had these men been of Asian origin I can absolutely gurantee their faith and country of origin would be mentioned and put on trial so to speak. They would no doubt be lumped in the same category as those abusers from Rochdale, oxford etc.

BasilBabyEater Mon 07-Oct-13 17:46:43

Hmm. I think I probably haven't been crystal clear in what I'm saying. For me this isn't about racism, it's about sexism.

My point is that when the Rochdale Asian men raped girls, the reason for their behaviour was put down to them being "other" - some kind of particularly vicious, unpleasant men with some kind of cultural issues that made them somehow more prone to be rapists. Asians were urged to examine the horrible misogyny in their communities and root it out.

When white men do the same, there is no soul-searching, no examination of the attitudes of mainstream society to sex, rape, etc., no urging us as a society to examine our misogyny and sexism, no ongoing articles and opinion pieces in the press and on the TV and radio. It's just another rape case and in mainstream media, rape is totally disconnected from our wider problem of misogyny and sexism in a way that it wasn't when mainstream media talked about the Rochdale case.

I accept that there was a problem of people not investigating the Rochdale case because of the fear of being accused of racism, but that's not what I'm talking about, that's a completely different issue to the one I'm getting at - which is our unwillingness to confront the fact that our society, whichever ethnic group we're in, has a huge misogyny problem that we urgently need to address but that we actually can't see unless the ethnic group is not mainstream white.

Sorry, I obviously didn't express that very clearly.

PatPig Mon 07-Oct-13 18:20:34

The reason the Asian gangs were such a scandal is because the white power structure covered them up and enabled their crimes.

We know that men have abused in the past and will continue abuse children in the future. Just as we know that houses will be burgled, cars will be stolen, and other crimes happen.

Crimes, unless particularly outrageous, aren't a major shock, they are part of being alive.

The 'Asian gangs' story is a meme ONLY because white institutions (police, children's services) covered them up.

Once that cover-up was uncovered it went from an every day 'crime occurred' story to a government-sponsored conspiracy.

The former is an item on page 12, the latter is quite rightly front-page news.

And with clear proof that Muslim/Asian gangs were protected by WHITE institutions, BECAUSE the gangs were Muslim/Asian, it's inevitable that anything resembling an Muslim/Asian gang will be described by the news as such.

That's just how news reporting work - you have an angle that turns a story from everyday into headline news and of course you go with it.

Just a few years ago a story like this one would have been headlined on the basis of 'internet menace to your children', because the internet was new and novel and frightening to many people. That particular line of reporting is now passé and so they haven't reported it.

Also it's a fact that the various 'Asian gangs' did act in collusion with each other, so you had multiple men abusing multiple girls.

That's conspiracy, and again it should be obvious that 'gang' is more newsworthy than a single vulnerable girl being abused by multiple men separately, and also that where that 'gang' has control over multiple girls that is in turn more newsworthy than a single victim.

So it's actually a fairly simple chain of events:

* white institutions in areas with large Muslim populations are aware of abuse of girls by Muslim men, and decided that it was more important to preserve 'community relations' than to stop the abuse
* this fact is uncovered by the media, creating the 'Asian gang' meme and headline news
* multiple similar 'Asian gangs' operating in very similar ways across the country are subsequently uncovered, and each is consequently labelled 'Asian gang'

'Asian gangs' are not unique, you also have 'Catholic priest paedophiles', and now 'TV/radio presenters from the 60s, 70s and 80s'.

Each of these is now a news category by themselves, and in each case largely thanks to cover-ups by powerful white institutions.

In the future events will no doubt establish further categories synonymous with the abuse of children but for now that's what we have.

Wallison Mon 07-Oct-13 18:27:09

I think the Archbishop of Canterbury should be wheeled out onto News At Ten to publicly explain to everyone that these men are not representative of white, Christian people.

BasilBabyEater Mon 07-Oct-13 18:30:35

That doesn't address the latent racism in much of the reporting around those cases PatPig. I also find it interesting that the (white) mainstream media was suddenly interested in the problem of misogyny in Asian communities while being blind to the problem of misogyny in wider society.

Wallison Mon 07-Oct-13 18:36:34

I've actually almost given up on trying to talk sensibly with people in rl about this. Even friends who have been verbally/sexually abused/assaulted for not wanting to have sex with (white) men after being bought a drink by them etc on a depressingly frequent basis, including one friend whose mate was literally kicked in the fucking teeth in front of her by a frustrated (white) suitor, talk in terms of the 'threat' of Asian men. It's depressing.

edam Mon 07-Oct-13 18:49:12


V good point, Basil, sorry it went straight over my head.

SeaSickSal Tue 08-Oct-13 16:34:39

Put it this way OP. If this group had raped a girl of a different race from them and there was evidence that their races had enabled a cover up of the crime e.g. a white police officer minimizing or ignoring the crime because they were white and the victim wasn't - then yes, you would be seeing pages and pages of coverage asking why.

What do you want to happen, do you want to ban coverage of any crimes if they don't portray your favoured groups in a positive light?

Honestly, people with attitudes like yours smack of the deep south where the favoured group (whites) were always assumed to be innocent and their crimes against others minimized because their race was a more important factor than their guilt or innocent. But you've simply chosen a new group to favour.

Nice to see you're shouting racism at others when you appear to be an incredibly accomplished racist yourself.

SeaSickSal Tue 08-Oct-13 16:37:14

PatPig white institutions are to blame really? How come in Rotherham it was discovered that much of the cover up was initiated by the perpetrators asian relatives on the council?

BasilBabyEater Tue 08-Oct-13 19:30:32

You clearly haven't understood anything I've posted seasicksal.

Try reading my posts again.

This isn't about race.

EldritchCleavage Wed 09-Oct-13 12:18:26

I do agree with you OP. Thanks to the recent, scandalous cases, people are very eager to point out the misogyny in Asian groups that contributed to their sex offending. They are not at all so prepared (whatever their ethnicity) to do the same with their own groups/cultures.

Because everyone does this. The pattern of offending may be different according to whether West African, African-Caribbean, Irish Traveller, Scottish or whatever men are doing this, but sexual offences against young girls, organised or individual, are a common place.

And despite the paedo panics that blow up from time to time, there is a marked and widespread reluctance to consider what it is in our ostensibly equal, rights-cognizant country that drives or enables this to happen. I.e. to think politically, culturally, anthropologically about it rather than see it as only inexplicable individual failings by evil men.

musicismylife Tue 15-Oct-13 22:24:43

I agree 100%.

Like I have mentioned on another thread, when you are white and you commit a crime, you're a criminal. When your black and commit a crime you're a black criminal. Makes a big diffremce

musicismylife Tue 15-Oct-13 22:25:04

You're *

Pocketangel Sat 26-Oct-13 10:20:25

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

cory Sat 26-Oct-13 16:07:44

Pocketangel, in most cases like these it turns out the child has already been abused and is damaged and traumatised- in other words, that she has already "learnt" all the wrong lessons.

BetterWithCheese Sat 26-Oct-13 16:26:37

Yes I agree with cory - it will almost certainly be the case that she was subject to some form of sexual abuse prior to advertising herself. Blaming young girls for being over sexualised makes no sense - they haven't created the culture which has over sexualised them they are a product of it. You are still victim blaming.

ZangelbertBingeldac Sat 26-Oct-13 16:30:59

Hate the title of this thread.

"raping an underage girl" underage for what? rape??

AnyFuckerReporting Sat 26-Oct-13 16:37:28

I remember this case. The girl joined a dating sure, claiming to be older. These men, once they knew her age, still went ahead with meeting her and sexually exploited her. It's not exactly the same as some of the grooming cases involving Asian men but still disgusting behaviour. One of the men lives very locally to me.

MothershipG Sat 26-Oct-13 16:54:17

Pocketangel I find your post really disturbing, you think it's ok for an adult male to have sex with a child? And then you think the blame lies with her?

I have reported your post for victim blaming.

FrightRider Sun 27-Oct-13 09:54:05

i dont understand why the thread title mentions asians when nothing in that article mentions asians?

LordPalmerston Sun 27-Oct-13 09:57:32

Pocket. She was raped!!

caruthers Sun 27-Oct-13 11:16:56

Whichever way this is dressed up,having sex with a 13 year old should carry a longer sentence than 3 flippin' years confused

These men were abusers and certainly shame me as a man...the courts could have given them much much longer but for their own reasons decided not to.

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