One man and the 'immigrants go home' advertisement.

(161 Posts)
NicholasTeakozy Mon 29-Jul-13 13:35:54

Pukkah Punjabi asks the Home Office to pay for his taxi from Harrow to Willesden. What an enterprising chap! grin

TabithaStephens Mon 29-Jul-13 13:38:32

Is he an immigrant?

OK I initially thought this was stupid as the van clearly states it's aimed at people who are in the UK illegally. However he is taking isse with the phrase "go home" and from reading further I can see why.

TS, he describes himself as having "migrant parents".

TabithaStephens Mon 29-Jul-13 13:44:44

So he's no an immgrant at all, let alone an illegal immigrant, who the advertisement is aimed at.

exactly. But if you read the article you'll see that he's taking particular issue with the phrasing, not the campaign in general.

specialsubject Mon 29-Jul-13 14:25:56

what a dickhead. If he isn't an illegal immigrant, it isn't aimed at him.

most of us are immigrants if you go back far enough - in some cases not very far. As long as we are legal, it's not a problem. I do resent those who ignore or break the law.

Solopower1 Mon 29-Jul-13 21:45:58

I can see why he objected to the poster. It's vile. He's not protesting on his own behalf, but for the sake of the people the poster is aimed at.

TabithaStephens Tue 30-Jul-13 00:42:53

What is "vile" about it?

slightlysoupstained Tue 30-Jul-13 01:00:00

Did you read the article Tabitha? It explains it quite well, better than I could do by paraphrasing it here.

Solopower1 Tue 30-Jul-13 06:35:59

Because it tries to bully and intimidate a group of people. That's vile, imo.

I don't want to live in a police state in which the government has to stoop to vicious mind games in order to persuade people to obey the law.

Chubfuddler Tue 30-Jul-13 06:45:09

It's vile because it adopts the language of racism "go home". It could just as easily have said "leave the UK". I'm not convinced the scary imagery is actually adding anything either, other than a climate of fear.

Spottybra Tue 30-Jul-13 07:18:38

I'm yet to be convinced that the people it's aimed at can read it.

I suspect the people it's actually aimed at are white racists voters <cynic>

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 07:54:40

Methods aside, wouldn't we not want illegal immigrants to go home?

Offering a callback in various languages isn't racial profiling, a language isn't a race.

Go home or face arrest is no different a statement than don't park here or we'll fine you £60

I would like fear and division in the illegal immigrant community, I don't want anyone who will illegally enter our country to believe that they will get away with it and get an easy ride.

By default an illegal immigrant would be of a different race, they cannot be anything but, it's not racist though.

Apart from a bit of a wag phone call this guy is talking rubbish.

Chandras Tue 30-Jul-13 08:05:19

I think what this guy has done is brilliant. Frankly, the posters are vile and intimidating, not the sort of graphics and language you use when trying to get someone, who is already afraid and intimidated, to seek help to leave the country.

These posters are out to appease a racist population.

I understand, however, that people who have not experienced racism, may not understand how horrible the ads are.

P.S. despite the name, I'm not part of the targeted audience. I just think India is the most fantastic place on Earth. I have however suffered from the unwelcome attention of some bigots while living here and abroad so I sympathise with the feelings of those who are targeted by this campaign.

Chandras Tue 30-Jul-13 08:13:27

The "go home" is incredibly offensive, "home" is a word loaded with meaning, "go home" is a phrase that says several things in one:
- You are not welcome
- You are not one of us
- you don't belong here

Using "back" instead of "home" conveys the same message without the insult, why did the PR people decided to use the offensive form tells a lot about this campaign?

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 08:20:02

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TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 08:20:45

Why are we afraid of "insulting" illegal immigrants anyway?

Chubfuddler Tue 30-Jul-13 08:45:36

Because they are human beings, and using the language of racism to appease those toying with UKIP/BNP/EDL dehumanises them and us?

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 08:52:51

I saw the new story about the billboard van on the BBC & was just incredulous. The wording reminded me of the "blacks go home" slogan we had in the 80s.

Anyway Illegal Immigration is one of those things that's hyped up massively by the DM press & Government when in actual fact it's a bit like the Benefit Scroungers - it exists, but it's such a small issue that its really not worth bothering about. Just another way for the government to encourage scare mongering in this country & deflect us all from the important stuff, like the NHS being privatised.

cornyblend37 Tue 30-Jul-13 08:58:51

'they are not one of us'

now that is vile

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 09:33:06

But they aren't. They illegally cross multiple borders, illegally cross our borders and work in largely illegal and unregulated areas taking out but not putting back in.

Follow the law of the land, genuinely and honestly apply, fair play.

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 09:35:05

Fallen - illegal immigrants really aren't the issue the government wants us to believe - its just scaremongering

TheProsAndConsOfHitchhiking Tue 30-Jul-13 09:42:03

I completely agree with FallenNinja on this one.

It is not racist.

filee777 Tue 30-Jul-13 09:46:54

I told some little shits hanging round the cemetery last night (where a friends grave has recently been decimated) to 'go home'

Am I a big fat racist?

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 09:48:14

Of course not filee hmm

NicholasTeakozy Tue 30-Jul-13 09:52:58

The people these mobile billboards are aimed at are those who are tempted to vote UKIP or any of the other racist parties. You can tell it's appalling when even Nigel Farage calls them nasty. Also, read to the bottom of the article I posted in the OP where he says it brought back to him how his parents must have felt when confronted by racists.

It's just typical 'nasty party' divide & rule bollocks. Again.

filee777 Tue 30-Jul-13 09:58:14

Then how is the billboard racist? It's telling people to 'go home' which seems to be the issue, like the words 'go home' have become a racist slur.

Had I called the children another racist slur I would most certainly be racist, so how is this any different?

TheFallenNinja By default an illegal immigrant would be of a different race, they cannot be anything but, it's not racist though

That's not true at all. A white American/ Australian etc. (nationalities chosen at random on the basis of being non EU countries with large white populations) who has overstayed their tourist/ study visa and is now hanging about indefinitely doing cash in hand bar work is also an illegal immigrant... There are more of those about than you think... At least there were when I lived in London a dozen years ago! Strangely people are very indulgent of that type of illegal immigrant...

Chubfuddler Tue 30-Jul-13 10:05:06

Phrases can be racist by connotation. Would you suggest a black person sits at the back of the bus? I mean those words aren't racist or offensive on their literal meaning. It's by usage and association.

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 10:05:52

Taken from the link posted by the op:

"So when the government today tells illegal immigrants to "go home", the phrase is not an abstract one: it is rooted in the popular fascism of that period, a fascism we were forced to challenge in order that we could say "we are here to stay".

Does that answer your question Filee?

I think people haven't clicked on the link to the article:

"As a child in the 1970s with migrant parents I remember how "go home" was shouted at us in the streets and graffitied on walls. One of my earliest memories is of the panic I felt when hearing my parents discussing in hushed tones whether we would indeed have to "go home" as we watched the National Front march on TV. So when the government today tells illegal immigrants to "go home", the phrase is not an abstract one: it is rooted in the popular fascism of that period, a fascism we were forced to challenge in order that we could say "we are here to stay".

That is why when these vans appear on the streets of Brent, where I have lived most of my life, I believe they should be questioned and opposed. We cannot allow them to promote fear and division in our communities, to make us suspicious of our neighbours."

filee777 Tue 30-Jul-13 10:07:34

Not really, I can't see how the term 'go home' which is used frequently (especially in the school holidays) has now become racist.

Sorry, cross posts with Forgetfulmog

Love it grin

I do wonder what they think they are going to achieve with this? I mean correct me if I'm wrong but illegal immigrants didn't get here by accident, they know they are illegal, a billboard isn't going to make them think "oh shit, maybe I shouldn't be here!"

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 10:10:25

Filee, how do you not get it?!

It's all to do with context, "go home" in you example is obviously not racist as you're not bringing the child's nationality or race into it.

If you had said to the children "Go home to India" (or something like that) then that would be racist & have negative connotations

Chubfuddler Tue 30-Jul-13 10:17:46

I don't believe that you can't see the connotations here filee.

TheSmallPrint Tue 30-Jul-13 10:17:53

Can I just say, she's a woman. And I found it very funny.

Chubfuddler Tue 30-Jul-13 10:18:41

You found what very funny?

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 10:19:28

I read the whole article which is why I can confidently say the the author is talking rubbish.

I want to live in a country that is so hard in illegal immigrants that the only way to consider coming here is legally and honestly.

There are no people sitting in the camps around Calais thinking they'd better not stow away to get here because of the contents of some billboard.

We have mechanisms to enable people to come here legally, why aren't they using them?

filee777 Tue 30-Jul-13 10:21:30

But it doesn't say 'go home' to India, it says 'go home' which could be to a variety of places with a variety of cultures.

filee You've never heard of phrases having negative connotations due to previous use then?

justanuthermanicmumsday Tue 30-Jul-13 10:23:45

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filee777 Tue 30-Jul-13 10:29:03

Oh I have definitely heard phrases that have a racist connotation, 'go home' is used by pretty much everyone at some point though.

If it had racial connetations it would have been racist when I shouted it at the kids in the cemetery.

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 10:30:39

Filee I give up.

Ok, when you yelled "go home" at the kids in the cemetery were you telling them that they weren't native and so didn't belong?

I'm with MurderofGoths here - what is actually going to be achieved by these billboards?

Someone who's here illegally already has a fairly lax approach to the law. Can't see their actions being changed much by a mobile billboard, regardless of what it says.

I knew an illegal immigrant, he was aware of the law, but didn't seem to think it affected him. I suspect that if he's still here he's laughing at these billboards.

filee777 Tue 30-Jul-13 10:39:22

Well, they aren't native and, by being here illegally they DON'T belong (the illegal immigrants, not the kids)

somebloke123 Tue 30-Jul-13 10:40:42

The billboards are pathetic. There are a number of people to blame for uncontrolled immigration. The immigrants themselves are not among them.

With illegal immigrants maybe it's somewhat different but if they are just desperately trying to better themselves it's understandable.

Under the Blair government the doors were flung right open (and there's little we can do about immigration from within the EU anyway). The then Downing Street advisor Andrew Neather has since gone on record as saying the policy was a deliberate ploy to change the demographics of the country and "rub the right's nose in diversity".

Alright, so the phrase has traditionally been used to tell people they aren't native and that they don't belong (even if they do) that's pretty racist and offensive right? And was it meant in a derogatory way?

The phrase can be used in non-racist, non-offensive ways as you've shown with your cemetery example. And the reason it isn't offensive there is because you aren't using the phrase with the same meaning. Follow me?

So if the phrase is being used to say that people aren't native or welcome would you say it's reminiscent of the first or second example?

Now bearing in mind the english language is wonderfully varied and full of nuance, would you say it is sensible to use a phrase traditionally used in a derogatory way?

justanuthermanicmumsday Tue 30-Jul-13 10:48:48

We all know wat context is in the context of illegal immigrants it has racial slurs. If you are not an ethnic minority or cannot see the bigger picture then you won't see the racial element. I see it.

One family member grew up in the 70s she was legally here as a child and all her life she got racism thrown at her the classic was paki go home. Funnily she's not Pakistani so what is she is? but if you have brown skin you're a paki so you should go home. Can you understand why she's racist today. She thinks all whte ppl are the same. Course I had a different experience i was born in the uk never experienced racism until i started wearing the hijab in my mid twenties. Even today i would say i don't get racist comments i don't live in fear. She does, she says she has to be careful where she goes coz of her skin colour. She would not hold these narrow minded views had those ppl never said go back home and such like.

It's sad to see ppl here perpetuating the problem with such language, but its been drummed in and sadly some folks seem to think its acceptable in their anger against illegal immigrants. The bnp and other such groups don't help either

fuzzywuzzy Tue 30-Jul-13 10:49:16

I was told to 'Go home you fucking paki' by a boy whilst waiting for the bus a couple of weeks ago.

I was shocked, mainly as I've not heard that since I was a child, vivid memory of a skinhead on a bicycle screaming it at us as I walked home from school with my mum, he stole me wooly hat, it was winter I must have been about six I think.

It is offensive, it validates the use of this phrase on the streets by racists, if the government is saying it, then clealry people on the streets can too, to people like me....who's grandparents lived and worked here (paying loads of taxes thank you very much) and are buried here (all legally)

filee777 Tue 30-Jul-13 10:52:38

But without the 'fucking paki' aspect of the insult it's just telling someone to 'go home' which might well be happening at a bus stop.

BMW6 Tue 30-Jul-13 10:57:26

Anyone, whatever their sex, race, religion, skin colour, political views etc etc is not welcome here and do not belong here if they are here illegally.

They should therefore go home and if they want to come here, apply through legal channels.

If they are denied access to this country, for whatever reason, then they must be prevented from comung here illegally. Anyone who is found to be here illegally should be thrown out. To their home country if known, or if they won't say where they are from the middle of the Sahara would do for me.

Chubfuddler Tue 30-Jul-13 10:57:49

Murder filee understands perfectly the associations of using this phrase in this context. I wouldn't bother.

filee you are being deliberately obtuse - why would somebody randomly shout "go home!" to a stranger at a bus stop without any meaning beyond "Do exactly what you are doing, catch the bus back to your house" hmm

fuzzywuzzy Tue 30-Jul-13 10:59:39

The advert is using deliberately loaded phraseology, the implication of the 'fucking paki' bit is there.

It is a popular racsit hated filled phrase, just because these vans don't have that last bit on the van doesnt mean the implication isn't there.

Wonder how many illegal immigrants have handed themselves over since these vans were rolled out hmm

chub I was giving the benefit of the doubt, but you are right.

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 11:04:28

Good to see Racism is well & truly entrenched in this country hmm

BMW6 Tue 30-Jul-13 11:07:02

Racist my arse! As I have said, I don't give a hoot what colour an illegal immigrant is - the point is they are here illegally and are therefore, by definition, a criminal.
I don't want a lot of criminals coming into this country - we have enough home grown ones already.

BMW6 Tue 30-Jul-13 11:09:44

If I applied to move to, say, Canada and was refused entry, then went in illegally, was found out and thrown out - are Canadians being Racist??

BMW No one is saying it's racist to get illegal's to leave. It is a well known racist phrase though, and in combination with the utter uselessness of these billboards it comes across as nothing more than "eurgh forriners".

Totally behind getting illegals to leave, as you say they have to break the law to get here. Which is never a promising start. But this isn't a solution, it is however pandering to a certain demographic.

BMW6 Tue 30-Jul-13 11:21:09

I doubt that "go back to your point of origin" or "return from whence you came" would be readily understood ....... hmm

And as they are criminals I don't give a toss if they are "hurt" by a slogan!

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved Tue 30-Jul-13 11:21:34

Thread makes me despondent. Alot of deliberately missing the point and pretending its ok.

TabithaStephens Tue 30-Jul-13 11:24:59

It is ok. Illegal immigrants should not be here. They do not benefit the country by being here.

BMW And "go home" is going to make them leave?

Ignore their feelings, people who live here legitimately are uncomfortable about the use of a traditionally racist/derogatory phrase being used by the govt.

tabitha Has anyone said they should be here?

TabithaStephens Tue 30-Jul-13 11:29:02

Most people support it. Which is why the government is doing it. Do you think they want to lose the next election? The people who are "uncomfortable" with it wouldn't vote Tory anyway.

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 11:31:22

I'm intrigued how essentially the offer of an amnesty and assistance with repatriation equals racism.

Just saying something or someone is racist doesn't make it so.

Cutting and pasting someone's misguided take on a poster doesn't make it racist nor does the desire to rid the country of illegal immigrants.

Using a phrase and saying that its racist doesn't make it so.

Episode Tue 30-Jul-13 11:48:11

All those intentionally missing the point of the article are not doing themselves any favours in making their points appear intelligent as far as the OP goes!

What happens if an illegal immigrant gets caught?

Dun Dun Dun........ shock They get arrested!

How can anybody believe that this is not a piece of BS propaganda aimed at the undercover racist or far right at the very least?

If you were an illegal immigrant would you hand yourself over for fear of being arrested or wait it out until you were PERHAPS, wait for it........ Arrested!

The government have paid A LOT of money for this campaign. The first rule of any campaign is to identify your target audience.... How in 2013 would we have a campaign for not paying tax with the main points of the advert being the HMRC will 'shock horror' send you a form in the post if we find you hmm. Point being, they do this anyway! Let’s not forget the advert is the wrong language for what, 95% of the target audience.

On the brighter side, at least our taxes have not been completely wasted. Reading this thread validates my point. This campaign has made an impact on the exact people it was intended too!

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 12:09:12

I can perfectly believe that this is not racism in all the guises quoted because I see the article for what it is, ill thought through guff and mischief making.

People are beginning to rightly challenge being labelled racist when they happen to agree with immigration policy.

Alluding that those who disagree with the op's link are racist themselves speaks volumes.

Why must we race to the bottom all the time?

Dun dun dun

Jinsei Tue 30-Jul-13 12:21:10

I seem to recall Lenny Henry making a joke years ago about the National Front or whoever wanting to pay big sums of cash to people from ethnic minorities to go "back to where they came from". He said it was a great idea, as a bus fare back to Birmingham would only cost him a few quid.

The advert is vile, but predictably, it appeals to your average DM reader. Grim.

TabithaStephens Tue 30-Jul-13 12:24:42

Who should the government be appealing to? Guardian readers?

Episode Tue 30-Jul-13 12:44:23

"because I see the article for what it is, ill thought through guff and mischief making" Targeted towards who exactly? Illegal immigrants?

If not why are you happy for the government to spend money on a PR activity to satisfy the need for people like you to have a platform to discuss your issues with immigration whilst doing very little to address the actual issue!

Money and time has been wasted on this campaign and I assume this is exactly why you dislike immigration, money and time, no? How many illegal immigrants do you think this campaign has managed to send back or at least identify?

Dun dun dun, is this not waste? Is this rocket science?

"People are beginning to rightly challenge being labelled racist when they happen to agree with illegal immigration policy". I think the vast majority of people that give the racist label, myself being one of them, do so because these opinions always come out as a knee jerk reaction to propaganda.

This follows on from my original point!

Why are people happy to ignore the fact that money and time is being spent on a PR activity which does not address immigration in itself?
Is it because that waste goes along with their own beliefs and wants? Immigration is discussed in terms of space, time and finances. Why is it okay for the Government to create waste? Why do you ignore that?

This was the point of the OP!

The vast majority of us who challenge these views do so in response to what is said by the supporters of bullshit! I have listened to people say they think the campaign is a good idea and is not offensive but the point being, from those of ethnic minorities, legal immigration and with half a brain it is!

This campaign was made for you which is why you feel it is okay for the government to waste millions on satisfying your wants whilst doing nothing at all to address the issue of illegal immigration. If you care so much about this issue you would be angry that this money has not been spent on strengthening the borders! Instead people are happy for money to be spent offending (not scaring) whole communities whilst going largely unnoticed by illegal immigrants!

Chubfuddler Tue 30-Jul-13 12:57:19

I don't read the guardian. I've always voted conservative acutally. And I see this campaign for exactly what it is. A sop to the voters the Tories fear will vote UKIP/BNP .

Chubfuddler Tue 30-Jul-13 12:58:32

The guardian endorsed the Tories the day before the last election so I think it would quite a good idea to try to appeal to their voters Tabitha.

Episode Tue 30-Jul-13 13:03:53

Chubfuddler agrred!

Public funds should not be used as part of a party campaign which is what this is!

We should be angry about that

TabithaStephens Tue 30-Jul-13 13:04:50

I thought the Guardian endorsed the Libdems?

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 13:10:36

And "people like me" are what. I understand your "it's not rocket science" means you believe me to lack intelligence.

You can rant all you like with stock phrases and talk about cost but I support this activity, I'm happy for it to be centrally funded and I believe its purpose is exactly what it says on the poster. If you are here illegally, go home.

The gubmit "shouldn't" be appealing to anyone - they should be enacting policies that are actually effective.

Now where's that unicorn?

So - immigration is a problem, sticking messages on a billboard isn't going to solve it. But it reassures people that "something is being done"

Likewise the useless proposals on internet porn filters, the bedroom tax that penalises the disabled but doesn't actually solve any housing problems....none of it will improve matters, but potential voters can "see" something.

I propose billboards reading "If you stole something - give it back or face arrest! 106 people were arrested last week for shop lifting! Text STOPNICKINGSTUFF to 54321 today!

That'll stop petty crime then, won't it? :D

TabithaStephens Tue 30-Jul-13 13:44:44

Shops do have signs up saying "shoplifters will be prosecuted" and those cardboard cutouts of policemen designed to make people think twice.

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 13:54:53

I think a lot of people (in RL as well as on this thread) are completely missing the point.

Illegal immigration is, well, illegal - it's wrong. Whilst I completely get why a lot of people do it, it's still wrong. I can understand why some people commit murder, doesn't make it right though. I think (probably) the vast majority of people can be in agreement about that, no?

The problem with this campaign is two-fold. Firstly it uses the slogan "Go home", which is synonymous with the 70s & 80s racist slogans that were hugely banded about at the time. This invokes unpleasant memories for those at whom these slogans were yelled. It also tells of a much less intolerant society (& one in which I have no wish to return).

The second problem is that the Government is making out that Illegal Immigration is this massive problem that costs x,y & z, huge, blah blah blah. Like I said before, it's exactly like the benefit Scroungers. Big Dave is deflecting our interest onto these "issues" away from the really important things - like the privatisation of the NHS, FSMs being ended, etc etc (vv tired & struggling to think of more, so hopefully someone else will help out here!).

These types of campaigns are purely a PR exercise & it saddens me to think that some people fall for them.

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 14:06:14

Yet another post claiming that some of us don't understand and because we are so dull have been hoodwinked by the government and their wily 'pr' activities.

It's pretty clear , if you are here illegally, you have no business here and if it's all the same we'd like you to go home, either on your terms or the laws.

It has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with immigration status.

I would stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone legally entitled to be here in defence of their rights, equally I would happily drive the bus of illegal immigrants to their home.

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 14:10:22

You've just proved my point fallen.

TabithaStephens Tue 30-Jul-13 14:15:39

Do people have unpleasant memories invoked everytime ET is shown on TV? The phrase "go home" should not be banned because at one time racists used it. As far as intolerance, what is wrong with being intolerant of people who have no right to be in this country?

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 14:21:00

Pleased to hear it.

ET home phone?

NicholasTeakozy Tue 30-Jul-13 14:38:58

I want to live in a country that is so hard in illegal immigrants that the only way to consider coming here is legally and honestly.

So said TheFallenNinja at 10.19. You want Australia then. They've got islands they stick illegal immigrants and asylum seekers on. I wonder whether they see the irony in this.

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 14:50:56

Quoting me will not change my position, telling me what I want(incorrectly) will not change my position, using the word 'irony' completely incorrectly will not change my mind.

So what is the purpose of your post?

Episode Tue 30-Jul-13 14:53:27

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TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 15:00:10

Thank you but I won't be accused of racism by you or anyone.

Yes it would be great if everyone that is here was here legally. But they're not. If you think a poster campaign, with inflammatory language is going to help you are majorly deluded. If you recognise that it won't help then you have to question the motivation for it, which is clearly political posturing.

It's also worth mentioning that illegal immigrants cost this country next to nothing. The conditions in the camps they held in if caught are dreadful, due to the very low investment in running them. Those who aren't caught are obviously costing us nothing. Many of them are failed asylum seekers, who have been rejected on very suprious grounds, making a return 'home' still essentially unviable.
Is your desire to have them 'go home' purely because you want to uphold the law to the nth degree?

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 15:09:48

Good point Lula about Illegal Immigrants costing us nothing.

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 15:11:49

But where does it end? Do we get to choose the laws we obey? What about taxes? Can we choose? We can't even parked legally taxed and insured cars where we want to.

To be fair, the OP posted so that anyone who disagreed with it could be labelled racist, which I have, which I am not.

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 15:16:51

Not entirely sure that was the OPs reason for posting Fallen hmm

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 15:17:30

Yes it was.

Episode Tue 30-Jul-13 15:23:13

We are all giving valid reasons for thinking this campaign is crap and you have said it is not but with no reasons?

Its been established that you have no issues with financial waste so I and many others would think it is down to racial grounds.

I am not calling you a racist but I think your lack of reasoning displays otherwise!

You are free to defend/evidence your points of course, perhaps you should!

TabithaStephens Tue 30-Jul-13 15:24:57

How much does this campaign cost? How much does illegal immigration as a whole cost Britain?

No one is trying to ban the phrase 'go home', just pointing out it's loaded when used in conjunction with immigration, documented or undocumented, because of it's usage by violent, oppressive groups.

The current work on getting undocumented migrants to either get proper documentation (usually by helping them claim asylum properly) or leave is already quite successful. This is just riling people up either to get votes or to frighten people.

Thankfully, most of us will never have to consider the law versus our safety and wellbeing.

NicholasTeakozy Tue 30-Jul-13 15:30:53

Oh blimey, I've been rumbled! shock No, I posted the article to point out a high class piece of real life trolling by Pukkah Punjabi. It gave me a good laugh. It seems immigrant bashers don't see the funny. <shrug>

The point of my post of 14.38 is that the very people who decided to house immigrants on various islands are either immigrants or children of immigrants. <shrug> again.

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 15:31:10

But why do you believe my position to be on racial grounds? I have only referred to immigration status.

My position is based on the notion that I obey the laws of the land. Why should others not?

"How much does this campaign cost? How much does illegal immigration as a whole cost Britain?"

Tell you what, I've got a great plan, if the govt buys loads of mousetraps and loads them with cheese maybe we could catch some immigrants? What do you mean it is unlikely to work? Worth a try isn't it? Waste of money? DOn;t you know that illegal immigrants cost us more!?

Episode Tue 30-Jul-13 15:36:53

The OP simply linked to an article which highlighted the ineffectiveness of the CAMPAIGN and the offence it has caused.

Ethnic minorities have come on here and said they find it offensive, do you think they are playing the race card (whatever that is) and faking offence

It is not for you to decide what other people can and cant find offensive, its not how it works.

And in the same breath you have said you will defend the rights of anybody with a stay status. How about listening to what those people as well as those from larger ethnic communities have to say on the issue, if you will, as you say, defend the rights of these people to the end!!!

The campaign is offensive, its a waste of money and has been used as part of a political campaign rather than to make a dent in the debatable issue of illegal immigration.

Why are you so happy for funds to be wasted and offence to be caused if you are the defender of people and society you speak of? hmm

MadBannersAndCopPorn Tue 30-Jul-13 15:45:49

Just my two-penneth worth.

I think using the phrase 'go home' when talking about immigration is thoughtless and unnecessary- It has been used to taunt people with different skin colours for decades, so when used in this context, it is racially loaded.
The government, of all people, should be able to come up with more PC terminology for their campaigns. It probably offends uk citizens who have had this used against them more than the actual 'target' audience.

The poster reminds me of the tv adverts that used to be at the beginning of films "Video piracy is a crime, do not accept it"

I think most people are in agreement that illegal immigrants are criminals and disobeying the law. It's funny actually as I've never seen a billboard aimed at drug dealers, paedophiles or tax evaders telling them to turn themselves in- and giving a number to call if they felt like being caught and arrested any time soon.

The advert just seems like a way for the government to make it look like they're doing something about the immigration 'problem' in a way which allows them to do absolutely nothing whilst appeasing people who have an oversized bee in their bonnet about it (EDL etc)

Sorry for spelling mistakes

MadBannersAndCopPorn Tue 30-Jul-13 15:48:59

x posted with loads of you, typing snail smile

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 15:53:37

No,the OP linked to an article that was one persons comic take on the campaign in question.

Even the OP's title is misleading.

Your continued direction of making this about race whereas I am talking about immigration status puzzles me.

You can reiterate all you wish, however, my view is that if you are here illegally the law should remove you. Turning a blind eye simply undermines individuals who have complied with our laws.

Episode Tue 30-Jul-13 15:59:46

Your viewpoint is obvious!

How it relates to the article, the success of the campaign and the funds wasted in relation to tackling the actual issue is where the race argument crops up....

The campaign is offensive but you say it does not matter, to you it is a success WHILST your actual issue is immigration.

If racially marginalised communities are saying they are offended in something that you say makes you happy, albeit useless, then I fail to see the non-racist connection.

Again feel free to elaborate!!!!!!!!!

The government is already quite successful at finding undocumented people and using the law the ensure they either leave or to get proper documentation. The campaign is unneeded, ineffective, and is more about getting votes and intimidating people with harmful rhetoric than getting people to comply with the law.

Undocumented people have no real effect to undermine documented migrants due to lack of comparable numbers and already strong enforcement on both types.

Thankfully the law is more flexible on helping undocumented migrants than rigid in or out and that few of us will ever need to consider such things for our own well-being.

TabithaStephens Tue 30-Jul-13 16:08:44

"
The point of my post of 14.38 is that the very people who decided to house immigrants on various islands are either immigrants or children of immigrants. <shrug> again."

Countries have the right to control their borders. There's no-one in the world that isn't descended from immigrants somewhere down the line. But that doesn't change a thing.

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 16:33:29

I don't find it offensive, you do. You find it offensive because you want to.

You want to continue refer to me as racist so I'll try to clear this up.

Immigration status = what I'm talking about.

Immigration = what your talking about.

Now, you can continue to accuse me if being racist but again at no point have I referred to any particular group or ethnic origin or how I believe that an individual whose immigration status is not legal should be dealt with.

Rather cleverly in this country we have mechanisms whereby people from other countries can apply legally to reside here, those who are successful have my support, those who are unsuccessful have my sympathy, those who choose to sneak in have my contempt.

Again, just in case it was lost, not racist, I'll add some exclamation marks as you did to accent my point!!!

I hope this clears it up for you.

And that mechanism is working well for the government to have documented migrants and get a lot of money out of us as well as for getting undocumented workers to leave or to get proper documentation.

The campaign is not needed, and it is purposefully using harmful rhetoric to cause a raise in fuss for marketing, to get votes from target groups, and to intimidate others - undocumented migrants, documented migrants, and native born people presume to be migrants. It's harmful and worthless in the work being done about undocumented workers.

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 16:49:42

But everything government does is to get votes from targeted groups, it's also understandable that some groups, as in this particular case, are so polarised on the topic that the electioneers will simply have calculated which side has the most potential votes.

Some seem to be in one demographic and others in another and as I am convinced that my viewpoint is not unique then I must fall into that group.

These are all pretty emotive topics as this thread has shown but at least the debate continues. One side of the debate may prevail over the other but that's the whole point of a debate isn't it?

And just to be absolutely clear, I have no racist views whatsoever.

Episode Tue 30-Jul-13 17:02:19

Sorry, still confused!!!!!! grin

How has anything you've said been relevant to the OP and the campaign?

What wisdom do you think you have that allows you to dictate what people should and shouldn’t find offensive! Bear in mind that all of these people will have a better idea of receiving racism and living within marginalised communities than you do!

Why do you dislike illegal immigration? The financial drain on the economy? Which is? And the campaign wasn’t, no?

Or you dislike it because it is illegal? The law does not dictate your thoughts.... Please articulate why?

I am not saying you have to ignore the immigration argument, but I am saying that 90% of people who do not find fault with this campaign and are similarly happy with the fact money has been wasted and offence caused cannot on in the same breath complain about the financial implications of illegal immigration.

I am trying to understand why you have no issue with the campaign and the offence caused. Since you have not actually addressed this, I am of course inclined to believe your thoughts are somewhere rooted in racism.

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 17:21:05

Imagine my surprise that you continue to accuse me of being racist.

You seem to read my posts, add bits, take bits away and then accuse me of whatever you wish.

I at no point have attempted to dictate who should or shouldn't be offended.

I'm not overly concerned about the cost of some van drivers wages and a few posters. The posters clearly state Illegal immigrants in big letters. Why would anyone else think this applies to them apart from the semantic argument of the term used.

As for knowing how marginalised communities feel, you have no idea what my race or origin is so you are making a rather large assumption here.

To be fair, you want the argument and I'm happy to play along, but, and again as you keep missing it, I am not a racist, never have been, you are knocking on the wrong door there.

In simple terms, our country has borders and within those borders there are those here legally and those not, some that have moved from elsewhere have gone to enormous lengths and made great efforts and sacrifice to be here legally.

It's those that sneak in I don't want here.

Again, so you don't add it in later, at no point did I cite a particular race, country of origin, religious group, gender or anything even remotely discriminatory, something a racist might do, but not me, not racist see.

opilo Tue 30-Jul-13 17:28:00

I don't see the problem with the campaign all illegal immigrants should be deported and if this this assists then I'm all for it.

Whether or not you have prejudicial views doesn't really matter, the system for dealing with undocumented workers is already effective in getting migrants to leave or helping them get the proper documentation without this.

This isn't needed. It's a waste of money, not effective (more likely to cause false accusations than actual people returning), makes the actual work far harder and obviously more about getting attention than dealing with the problem. Whether or not an individual has hateful views doesn't matter, the wider system that this type of marketing feeds into dehumanizes, degrades, and continues to alter the perceptions of undocumented migrants (we've already had it in this thread where the perception that undocumented workers won't be White, they actually make up a great deal of undocumented workers) and overblow the problem that is already being handled well.

"if this this assists then I'm all for it."

Do you think it will?

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 17:48:11

I have no idea whether this will make any difference at all but here's something that's not too much of a leap. There may well be some here illegally who actually would like to go home but can't for financial reasons. I'm sure this could be a tiny number of people but law of averages says there must be some. In this case it may actually help some people.

There are already a lot of people working to help those undocumented migrants.

We don't need intimidation tactics for those undocumented migrants - they already come forward to the community and immigration help centers. This kind of advertising is far more likely to cause false accusations, more violence and pain towards perceived migrants, and do nothing for undocumented people who need help with asking for asylum or just don't care. The little bit of help that could be perceived from this (which there isn't, those undocumented migrants already come forward) is outweighed by the pain is far more likely to cause.

TheFallenNinja Tue 30-Jul-13 18:17:54

Is undocumented migrant the same as illegal immigrant?

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Jul-13 18:31:03

Evening,

We'd like to remind you all of our talk guidelines If you could take a few minutes to have a read, that would be grand.

MNHQ.

pointythings Tue 30-Jul-13 18:39:22

The problem I have with this campaign is that it will reawaken all the fear immigrants felt in the 70s and 80s when racism was not considered much of an issue. It's a simple matter of having the good manners to word things so as not to be inflammatory or inconsiderate of the feelings of very many people who were born in the UK, have contributed to the economy of the UK but happen to be of a different ethnicity. Bringing back those feelings to people is just plain rude. When did we abandon common courtesy?

NicholasTeakozy Tue 30-Jul-13 19:24:31

Thanks Julie, you've made my day by reminding us of the guidelines. grin

Solopower1 Tue 30-Jul-13 19:28:47

What is normal procedure for deporting illegal immigrants? AFAIK it involves spying on the community to find out who is and isn't illegal, then knocking on their door at 4.00 in the morning and bundling them on a plane before they have had time to say goodbye to their family and friends here, or notify anyone they are coming, or even pack. Oh, and meanwhile, they send sinister vans round to terrorise them.

Whereas what they could do is decide what the law is and apply it, without fear or favour, at the border.

Solopower1 Tue 30-Jul-13 19:29:51

Btw, does that remind anyone of anything? The only difference between what we are doing and what the Fascists and Nazis (OK and communists) did in the 1930s and 40s is that we don't shoot the people we have decided are 'undesirables' or 'enemies of the state' ourselves. But you want a police state? You've got one, at least in some parts of the country.

I want the govt to stop trying to appease right wing racists and vindictively blaming the immigrants for the government's or Border Agency's own failings. I am ashamed of this govt.

WetGrass Tue 30-Jul-13 19:35:38

Home is very unfortunate phrasing.

The very nature of being an immigrant in many cases is that you no longer have a home you can go to.

Episode Tue 30-Jul-13 19:45:27

hmm OK!

Re-read your own posts and you will find a pile of contradictions, some of which I have highlighted.

Racism is rooted in society, its not just a BNP issue, but this is a separate issue and I think this conversation might be a bit much for you! Saying your not a racist has no standing on whether you are or hold racist views.

FWIW it is pretty racist to tell somebody they should not be offended about an issue you have no experience of or that they are offended because they want to be.

The OP was about the campaign and its flaws! This is what I have tried to address, but anyway I’m out..... You can take a horse to water and all of that!

Wannabestepfordwife Tue 30-Jul-13 19:53:14

Tbh I would prefer the government to use the money to set up an apprenticeship scheme in the border agencies

anewdispensation Tue 30-Jul-13 20:09:50

Interesting how it wasn't illegal all those years ago when people left the west to take people from their homes as slaves. They didn't need visas then to go to Africa did they?
Truth is the feeling on not being welcome can never be understood by someone who has never experienced it. As long as conditions are better in the west, people will do whatever it takes to come here and stay here. And to the previous poster who said some rubbish about not paying in, you would be shocked to know that whether illegal or not, as long as you have an NI number, HMRC will collect any tax due which they do. So while I don't condone staying here illegally, I will say to people on MN don't be so quick to adopt a righteous stance on 'our country' without getting your facts right.

An undocumented migrant is a migrant without current proper documentation.

Just as a driver without current proper insurance is an uninsured driver.

Migrating without documentation and driving without insurance are both currently illegal. The concept of people breaking the law in either way is unpalatable though we know it happens for a wide range of reasons and both are being dealt with by authorities who make and enforce the law. I have never heard of someone driving without insurance, or even someone with insurance but speeding, referred to and reduced to being an "illegal driver", why should migrants - some of whom do so in desperate attempt to save their lives and only need nudging down the asylum route or have been trafficked here - be dehumanized and reduced in such a fashion that we do not do to uninsured drivers who, just the same, lack proper documentation. Yes, some come and take the piss - but a lot of those are holiday-cash-in-hands from the States, Canada, and so on but they tend to be labeled as "overstayers" by the media, hence why some think that undocumented migrants can't be White. Which is a laugh - the main undocumented in the Australia are White Brits who overstay, few complaints about them in our media. And the reason it's mostly them is because they're less likely to have their documentation checked as closely as people from other groups and countries.

All that separates the people you support and the people you have contempt for is documentation and leaving that out negates the ability to properly discuss the massive issues around documentations. Because the whole system around documentation is a real money maker for the government and with all the ideological babble about letting good migrants in, it's far more about keeping immigration profitable for them (hence why the price to do so goes up well above inflation every year and people need more than ever to get to Permanent Resident).

I am a documented migrant, have lived in the UK for ten years. I hope my children will defend me and other migrants in the future as the man in the article has done. Mainly as I, as a documented migrant, get intimidated and abused by people regularly. I've had people try to call false allegations on me because of stunts like this. It hurts people. Britain's going down the road of America, where any immigrant and even native borns that have "the look" will be pulled into the police stations to prove documentation and have their homes trashed on an almost weekly basis because of stunts like which get a lot of malicious fake calls. I have kin who have had this done to them in the States, and they're Native Americans, that's bitter, but that's what happen when this rhetoric becomes normal. The rhetoric needs to be challenged - the government is already dealing undocumented migrants well and treating them as sub-humans like this campaign does do anything to help, it harms people.

*doesn't do

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 20:56:00

Very good post LittleSporks, I hadn't thought about it in the terms you put (about undocumented migrants).

Episode - I feel your pain confused

I'm not going to reiterate my earlier points as I think they're lost on the people at which they were aimed! Safe to say that I, for one, find this campaign offensive, unnecessary & a complete waste of resources. Interesting too that Nick Clegg claims to have known nothing about it....

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Jul-13 21:55:14

Evening.

Please try and ensure your comments are directed towards posts not posters!

MNHQ.

Forgetfulmog Tue 30-Jul-13 22:03:50

Was that aimed at me Julie? If so, I didn't realise I was doing anything wrong shock.

<pops off to read Talk Guidelines>

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Jul-13 22:43:36

Forgetfulmog

Was that aimed at me Julie? If so, I didn't realise I was doing anything wrong shock.

<pops off to read Talk Guidelines>

No, not unless you've been up to mischief!

Chandras Tue 30-Jul-13 23:22:13

This teminds me of the worst bigot I know, she can splurt racism for hours and if you point out what she said is racist her answer is "it's not racist, is the truth" (rolls eyes).

Chandras Tue 30-Jul-13 23:23:00

Appologies for the typos... Never goid at texting...

TabithaStephens Wed 31-Jul-13 00:07:46

There's nothing racist about telling illegal immigrants that they are not welcome here.

It doesn't really matter if someone thinks it is racist or not - it matter if it causes harm to the wider population of people perceived to be migrants - which it will as it's designed to stir people up and cause anger - as well as harm to the agencies trying to get undocumented workers to leave or get current documentation as they will now be flooded with false and unreliable information. Happens every time something like this happens. These are never well organized with all the needed agencies, as in this case where few seem to know what is going on, and never act to protect others who could be harmed by this.

Seriously, people need to stop protecting themselves and their things from accusations of racism - we live in a world where little really happens to racists so why waste the energy - and try to see the actual harm that comes out of actions. Regardless of whether or not you see it as racist, it will cause harm to many people and harm your cause of moving on undocumented workers. That alone should earn it your contempt.

TheFallenNinja Wed 31-Jul-13 06:22:10

Undocumented migrant. Love it.

KingRollo Wed 31-Jul-13 06:31:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KingRollo Wed 31-Jul-13 06:33:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheFallenNinja Wed 31-Jul-13 06:42:18

Goody. Here come the "your wrong" brigade.

I'm out of here before it gets "crashingly" boring.

NicholasTeakozy Wed 31-Jul-13 06:47:57

Bye Ninj, you'll be missed. Your views won't though.

Weegiemum Wed 31-Jul-13 06:55:06

One of my dd1's best friends arrived here as a illegal immigrant from the DRC, with her parents. Her father was an outspoken critic of the government there and had to leave for his own and his family's safety - they literally got on the next plane, leaving 3 older sons in hiding.

At that time the uk wasn't accepting refugees from their country. They stayed, and applied for refugee status, which then allowed their boys to join them.

They can never "go home" because the father would be killed within days.

I'm glad I live in a country where people like this feel safe!

IOnlyNameChangeInACrisis Wed 31-Jul-13 07:14:17

Gosh, it's exciting to be part of a whole brigade.

I agree this campaign is actually aimed at appeasing xenophobes rather than actually doing anything effective about illegal immigration. As a legal migrant, I'm offended and irritated by it. And I think Pukkah Punjabi's wind-up is really funny and a great response to such a nasty little campaign.

longfingernails Wed 31-Jul-13 07:32:23

This van is stupid.

Illegal immigrants SHOULD be deported - it sends a message of deterrence, and would free up housing, school places, etc. But the way to do it is not a poster saying "please go".

The way to do it includes things like:
- if you are in this country illegally, you are deported without any legal loopholes. Appeals should focus only on whether you are here illegally; once it is established that you are here illegally, there should be no right of further appeal. Might require withdrawal from the ECHR, but that is a good idea anyway.
- offer a payment by results to any company or individual depending on the number of illegals they deport.
- require validated proof of address to access any and all public services, including the NHS and schools; with frequent immigration checks on that data. Deny access to the NHS, housing, and so forth for illegals.

There's nothing wrong with populism, but it has to be backed up with effective policy.

ttosca Wed 31-Jul-13 19:45:37

Yeah, who cares if they get sent back to their country and get tortured, raped and killed. The EHCR is for pussies....

ttosca Wed 31-Jul-13 19:49:26

> require validated proof of address to access any and all public services, including the NHS and schools; with frequent immigration checks on that data. Deny access to the NHS, housing, and so forth for illegals.

Awesome! So homeless people don't get medical treatment. Nor do people who have fled abusive homes, including women and children.

Forgetfulmog Wed 31-Jul-13 19:55:53

How on earth is withdrawal from the ECHR a good idea????

MadBannersAndCopPorn Wed 31-Jul-13 20:00:05

"Once it is established that you are here illegally, there should be no right of further appeal"

"Deny access to the NHS, housing, and so forth for illegals."

Fuck it- they should just put these slogans on their vans.......

NotAsTired Sat 03-Aug-13 10:19:14

When I saw the bbc report on this van, I was incredulous. And it made me feel a bit sick too.

I remember as a child and as a teenager, people shouting at me from cars "Paki, go home."

So yes, telling people to go home is very loaded language, its offensive and I despair at a government who uses it as a campaign.

NotAsTired Sat 03-Aug-13 10:20:18

in a campaign.

WafflyVersatile Sat 03-Aug-13 10:31:57

The adverts are not aimed at illegal immigrants. They are aimed at us. It's all about keeping us too busy hating each other and blaming each other to see that it is the wealthy and powerful who are fucking us over, as per usual.

If they want to get rid of illegal immigrants they can raid all the Aussie and NZ pubs and catch all the overstayers.

TabithaStephens Sat 03-Aug-13 12:17:05

How many illegal Aussie and Kiwi immigrants do you think there are, WafflyVersatile? My guess is not very many.

The sooner we leave the EU, and are free of the blasted ECHR, the better. I do not think the referendum will be even close. Everyone I know hates the EU and everything it stands for.

Forgetfulmog Sat 03-Aug-13 13:43:26

Everyone you know hates the EU?! Christ I didn't realise people actually thought like this.

How do you think the UK will cope without the EU Tabitha? What about all the UK laws that have been made as a result of EU directives & that have benefitted the UK? You know what, actually I'm not sure I can even be arsed to have an argument over this. You carry on in your own little bubble love & I, & people like me, will live in reality.

kim147 Sun 04-Aug-13 21:53:27

In the whole scheme of things, illegal immigration is not too much of an issue compared to the genuine and perfectly legal immigration from other countries.

I can't understand how people can't see the problem with "go home". I've had children I teach tell me they've been told to "go home" (normally followed by "You fucking....".

What effect do they think this campaign will have on illegal immigrants or should I say #immigration offenders?

What about asylum seekers? Will the Home office be happy with people shouting this on the streets? Mass demos with people shouting this?

musicismylife Thu 08-Aug-13 20:58:08

Anewdispensation-you are so right, spot on.

People like to forget their uncomfortable history whilst residing in superiority.

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