Zimmerman found 'not guilty' of Trayvon Martin's murder

(390 Posts)
Kveta Sun 14-Jul-13 03:25:58

m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23304198

Bloody hell.

How utterly crap for Martin's family and friends sad and how dangerous for race relations in Florida sad

fuzzywuzzy Sun 14-Jul-13 03:48:33

The poor family.

I can't get my head around the concept of justifiable deadly force against an unarmed teenager.

SavoyCabbage Sun 14-Jul-13 04:11:11

I'm stunned. And disgusted.

Self defence! When he followed a 17 year old through the streets. A 17 year old who had gone out to buy some sweets!

Zimmerman followed Trayvon. And shot him.

differentnameforthis Sun 14-Jul-13 04:13:20

Self defence? What was Trayvon going to do, throw sweets at him??

Speechless!

PatPig Sun 14-Jul-13 05:16:00

So how much of the evidence presented in the two week long trial have the above posters reviewed?

Zimmerman was on trial for murder, the prosecution hopelessly failed to prove this and he was therefore found not guilty.

Absent a race baiting media this is generally what is referred to as 'justice'. obviously all the eyewitnesses above know better however....

Onetwo34 Sun 14-Jul-13 05:26:37

I have been following the trial. I am horrified at the result. sad

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 05:48:02

If you were in the jury, and were presented with the evidence that the jury were shown, would you have found Zimmerman guilty?

Roshbegosh Sun 14-Jul-13 06:31:53

Why was he prosecuted for murder? I suppose he knew it would be unlikely he'd be found guilty of that and so it was a smaller risk than being prosecuted for manslaughter. Cynical lawyers who want to get him off and don't give a shit about justice.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 06:35:12

I have just seen this on the news and am shocked.

I have not seen the evidence that Tabitha mentions, would be good if you would elaborate.

I think despite having a black president there is still a long way to go in America.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 06:46:40

He was shot while on top of Zimmerman, punching him in the head. This was backed up by ballistics reports and the testimony of the medical examiner.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 06:49:27

The way the media have covered this case has been absolutely ridiculous. They will have blood on their hands if deaths result from any violence following the verdict.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 07:35:59

I haven't followed any of it and so only remember the initial report.

I know America is not the united America it appears to be now it has a black president.

I have family in Virginia and she is always saying how different it is in America, that it is nothing like London. There are white areas of town and black areas of town and you only go to "your areas".

Mixxy Sun 14-Jul-13 07:53:04

I've watched the entire trial Patpig. And he was actually on trial for second degree murder and for manslaughter. I do not think the prosecution met the burden of proof for 2 degree murder, bit I do think they did for manslaughter.

Florida is a cesspool. Just look at the Casey Anthony trial...

DoraExplorer1993 Sun 14-Jul-13 09:36:07

Yes the poor innocent 17 year old 'gangsta' with a string of burglaries, history of violence and drug abuse, and gold teeth hasn't got "justice", how terrible hmm

I can understand thickos in America being taken in by the laughable media coverage of the case (using a picture of Martin when he was 13 FFS), but it's disappointing so many in the UK are stupid enough to be taken in by it too.

Flojobunny Sun 14-Jul-13 09:40:26

dora thickos in America? Clearly you are a racist too.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 09:43:46

Well clearly if he had a criminal record he deserved to be shot whilst armed with a pack on skittles & a can of iced tea then Dora hmm

DoraExplorer1993 Sun 14-Jul-13 09:46:04

Yes very good Flojo, have a blue peter badge. So nobody in America is thick? Jolly good, move along.

QueenofWhispers Sun 14-Jul-13 09:47:28

Firstly, I'm from America and I am most definitely an ethnic minority. I lived in FL for a little while before moving to the North East of the country...there are pockets everywhere (including London) filled with racist A**holes.

I've faced less racism in the depths of America in the 22 years of Life I spent there.

I faced more racism in the first week of living in London than ever before.

I don't understand the Zimmerman case...it truly seems unjust; but it's never really been about evidence has it? It's about having a better opponent in the ring to fight your corner. I don't like it; but thats how it works. It's not fair; but at the same time Karma will get back to this guy.

DoraExplorer1993 Sun 14-Jul-13 09:51:42

So Hokey, if you have skittles on you it's ok to repeatedly punch somebody much smaller than you in the head and bash their head into concrete? You must spread that message to all the people with violent husbands on mumsnet, then they will know to check if their partners have a bag of skittles with them because accusing them of doing anything wrong.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 10:02:51

I am talking about one incident Dora don't try and score points by relating what I said to domestic violence.

Was it reasonable force, I don't think so, there we can agree to differ.

chocolatespiders Sun 14-Jul-13 10:03:59

Heartbreaking.. family must be absolutely drained.. The pictures shown of the body on the ground and in the morgue were disturbing.

mayorquimby Sun 14-Jul-13 10:18:35

Don't think many people who watched the trial will be too suprised by the decision (whether they agree with it or not) the defence established their narrative and case very well while the prosecution simply didn't.
The stand your ground law always favoured Zimmerman, and the fact that many of the factors which were jumped upon by the press early on turned out to be so unreliable that it all started to go zimmermans way.
By that I mean the initial editing of the 911 call by NBC, the fact that the initial witness testimony placing Martin on top of Zimmerman was almost wholly ignored and as such the aspect of self defence was derided and dismissed by pretty much everyone. I think that then as information cropped up over time which had the potential to support this version of events and the media had to begin to backtrack etc it swung all the momentum zimmermans way and meant that for many "reasonable doubt" was now in play

Can't help but think the media have handier the whole thing appallingly from start to finish

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 10:23:56

the police handled the case appallingly from the start. they took Zimmerman's word that it was 'self defence' and didn't bother investigating the crime until they were forced to.

FadedSapphire Sun 14-Jul-13 10:38:29

My gut reaction is shock concerning everything about this case.
Zimmerman should NOT have been following/ stalking him. If he had not done that perhaps none of this would have come to pass.

FadedSapphire Sun 14-Jul-13 10:40:45

Zimmerman comes across as a not very bright, obsessed and dangerous man.
The fact that his 'word' was taken as truth and a trial was forced shows how different things are in America. Mind boggling...

fuzzywuzzy Sun 14-Jul-13 12:07:34

The police told Zimmerman not to follow Martin, he should not have been chasing after a kid with a gun.

chocolatespiders Sun 14-Jul-13 12:36:18

Dora- Have you evidence of a police record? And why is that relevant of what happened on the night? The boy had been to a shop paid for sweets and a drink and walked home with his hood up because it was raining!!! And he was profiled by a wannabe cop who regularly phones reporting people to the police.

What about Zimmermans history is that relevant?

chocolatespiders Sun 14-Jul-13 12:47:52

Casey Anthony killed her kid = Not Guilty

George Zimmerman kills a teenager= Not Guilty

Michael Vick killed a dog= GUILTY #WakeTheFuckUp!

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 14:48:18

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HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 14:50:04

Fed up of "them" to whom are you referring?

Chanatan Sun 14-Jul-13 14:53:46

I,m interested in who you referring to as "them" as well.

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 14:54:18

No, a life should not have been taken and the US gun law is for another post, and I also don't agree that it was Trayvon's fault totally just because he has records of criminal activity, but I do NOT believe race has anything to do with it! And all of those protestors in America just clearly have nothing better to do...

On the issue of race though, it was actually Martin when on the phone to his friend that made a white racial remark about Zimmerman !! R u all blind?!

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 14:56:32

As 'them' I'm referring to the black communities obviously - the ones who feel the need to revert back to centuries ago and claim that everyone id a racist!! Jeez we live in 2013 get a grip!! Yes, there are still racist people / groups etc but you tell me where the racial element was in this case for people to jump on the 'race' bandwagon ??! confused

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 14:58:44

So do we flip it around and call Martin racist for referring to Zimmerman as a 'cracker', which apparently in the US is a racist term amongst thr black communities for white people???!

Chrissie, do you think Zimmerman would have chased Trayvon so vehemently if he was white? If it had been a white kid in that situation, the vigilante-wannabe wouldn't have looked twice, but because it was a black boy in a hoodie, he was "suspicious" and went in when he had been told to wait for the police.

THAT is why race is a factor in this case.

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 15:08:18

GalaxyDefender - this is exactly my point?! WHY or what makes you believe he wouldn't have acted the same way if Martin had've been white??! What evidence supports that? Crazy!

Zimmerman is multi racial himself too !!

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 15:09:28

I do agree however that he seems (Z) as though he was a vigilante/law enforcement wannabe! But still NOT a racial reason for his attack

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 15:11:41

Also, not being rude here, but if Martin's colour/race riled Z's suspicion, isn't it statistical fact in the US that the majority of criminal activity is carried out by black men ? Statistically, the majority of men on death row are black males...Was Jeffrey Dahmer a racist for targeting a black male? No!

Chrissie - Zimmerman called the police and they told him NOT to follow Trayvon. He used race specific slurs about Trayvon as to why the police should come against and why he was following.

The coroner proved that Trayvon had no bloods on his hands and no offensive or defensive wounds - just an old cut on his finger and a point blank shot. The coroner said that Trayvon was able to feel the pain for 1-10 minutes but was unable to move. This completely goes against what Zimmerman said (that Trayvon held his wound and said "you got me"). He wasn't even able to grab the wound.

Zimmerman being part Latino doesn't mean he can't be racist against a Black youth.

Chanatan Sun 14-Jul-13 15:21:36

Also, not being rude here, but if Martin's colour/race riled Z's suspicion, isn't it statistical fact in the US that the majority of criminal activity is carried out by black men ? Statistically, the majority of men on death row are black males,that statement could be taken another way www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/fourteen-examples-of-raci_b_658947.html

Dora - Zimmerman has a string of assaults, sexual molestation, and rape charges against him. However his criminal record was dismissed as was Trayvon's school records showing he had a 3.7 GPA (out of 4), a full ride scholarship to University, and over 600 volunteer hours under his name.

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 15:33:07

LittleSporksBigSpork - Yes, I agree that he should've waited for the Police to arrive as opposed to following Martin, but again, as I said before I also agree that he was on a power trip - law enforcement wannabe!

Where and what where his 'slurrs' about Martin that would be considered racial ?!

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 15:34:16

Chanatan - they're not actual statistics of prison and the colour / race of the majority of inmates, which is what I was referring to

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 15:35:50

LittleSporks - Are you saying because apparently Martin was well educated / intelligent then he therefore could not have been in any way violent towards another human being???! One name - Ted Bundy! Look how intelligent / edicated he was!

Dora - that picture was 6 months old and most of the thug pictures have been proven to be another person entirely. Trayvon was small than Zimmerman www.snopes.com/photos/politics/martin.asp

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 15:42:45

Martin's family are portraying him to be an angel (!) yet pictures have leaked online of him smoking drugs! And text msgs on his phone, that he'd sent to a friend just before he was killed, about his anger towards losing a fight with somebody ! Quite the little angel that!

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 16:00:34

What he did or didn't do before he was shot is irrelevant, he was not on trial.

He was not committing a crime nor was he armed. He was shot, in all probability because he was a young black man in a hoodie.

If you have black family or know young black men in this country then you will know how they can be treated purely because they are young and black.

That is why some of the black community raise these issues, because they are relevant and not because they 'are playing the race card' as I think you put it.

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 16:12:23

HokeyCokie - was Martin not committing a crime when he started repeatedly punching Zimmerman ?! Errm, no, as Zimmerman was a wannabe vigilante - Martin was a wannabe gangster by all sounds of it!

I don't have black family, but have / do have black friends who, in this day and age, actually agree to an extent that their own races play the card all too often.

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 16:14:23

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Chanatan Sun 14-Jul-13 16:17:34

If racisim wasnt so widespread then ethnic minorities would be unable to "play the race card" as you describe it,so blame the racists rather than the racially abused.

yamsareyammy Sun 14-Jul-13 16:25:39

I know very little about the case, but ChrisseTay, Martin's back history is of no relevance to this case, is it?

If it was, it would mean that every time a previous criminal, or someone with form for bad behaviour is hurt, murdered robbed etc, then nothing should be done about it.

Is that what you call justice?

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 16:30:21

yamsareyammy I'm not stating that Martin's past criminal history is relevant per se, I'm saying his family are potraging him to be an angel! Therefore, this gives the media more ammunition to back up the prosecution against Zimmerman in the public eye! I feel very saddened for Zimmerman actually - reading his brothers Twitter, the death threats they're getting are ridiculous!

Chanatan Sun 14-Jul-13 16:35:48

You seem to be using Trayvon Martin,s history as justification for what Zimmerman did.
And lets face it,the Zimmermans are no angels,there is a little matter of a fraud trial coming up.

yamsareyammy Sun 14-Jul-13 16:45:08

Why is Trayvon Martins past history relevant at all, ChrissieTay?

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 16:52:42

He was their son and I am sure they loved him no matter what he had done and of course they would want people to know positive things about him.
But for christ sake let it go, what he did in his life had no bearing on why he was shot.

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 16:58:41

Chanatan & yamsareyammy - I've just answered this before and can't be bothered writing it again

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 16:59:41

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ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 17:02:01

If Zimmerman had been your partner / brother / father and some thug with an attitude starts laying punches and bashing his head on the concrete floor, would you not want him to self-defend?? If I was in that situation, I'd shoot aswell, as I think many of us would !

Chanatan Sun 14-Jul-13 17:07:46

The colour of my skin has no bearing on my opinions but that statement from you makes me think you are racist.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 17:09:00

Actually i am white, you are a racist.

Mixxy Sun 14-Jul-13 17:10:04

First of all Dora Trayvon did not have a criminal record, let alone a record for a 'string of burglaries'. If you can't get even the most basic of your racist spouting correct, there isn't much hope for you. (Not that anyone with an IQ above 90 really listens).

Secondly, Zimmerman is the one with the criminal record. Two for domestic assault, speeding, and struggling with an officer. There is an untried case of molestation alleged against Zimmerman.

Now, back to the Daily Mail with you.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 17:12:47

Oh and I have reported your post.

Chanatan Sun 14-Jul-13 17:15:06

I wouldnt have bothered Hokey,let everybody see her for what she is.

yamsareyammy Sun 14-Jul-13 17:15:26

I'm white too.
Maybe my use of the words per se, and yours, are not the same.

Chanatan Sun 14-Jul-13 17:17:51

And for the record I,m white too.

yamsareyammy Sun 14-Jul-13 17:23:37

Past criminal history - he doesnt appear to have been previously charged with anything, whereas Zimmerman had. Though again, not sure if Zimmermans past criminal history had any bearing on this case.

Else , that too would mean, that anyone with a charged criminal past, is guilty of anything else that comes to court.

I'm not black (lightskinned Metis). I am from the States though and have family there. The news has been highly followed, along with the case of Marissa Alexander, the Florida Black woman who got 20 years for firing a shot at a wall that hurt no one to scare off an abusive husband who admits he was there to harm her.

Prison in America is highly racialized as are stopping procedures. Ignoring race is to be blind to the problems such as that the racial profiling that you spoke of earlier gives no better results and White people are far more likely to have contraband than people other groups because we've all been shown that they're more likely to get away with it . Britain is better though racism is a problem in the UK's police force as well.

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 18:09:27

HokeyCokey I am not actually - let LL Cool J take me to bed anyday wink

But I also don't need to justify this to u...

What I find quite ironic is that none of you have actually answered my question - Where is / was the racial indication within this attack ???!

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 18:11:12

Wasn't Zimmerman involved in some charity work for a black friend / neighbour a few tears ago? Would he seriously have done that if he was a racist ??!

Card - played - much !!confused

yamsareyammy Sun 14-Jul-13 18:12:48

ChrissieTay you say he was a thug with an attitude. Where do you get that idea from?

I am not personally sure there was a racist indication.
Wasnt there. Dont know the 2 people at all.

yamsareyammy Sun 14-Jul-13 18:14:13

People can hide behind charity work sometimes.
especially celebs

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 18:14:26

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/14/how_power_works_in_america/singleton/

Can't link as on phone, interesting reading...

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 18:15:35

I suppose it's a bad time to point out that the only evidence of racism in this case with any credibility is Trayvon Martin referring to Zimmerman as a "creepy ass cracker".

Cracker originated from the term whipcracker, as in a slavedriver.

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 18:20:02

staffie99 - I'm referring to the whole case - there are protestors all over America right now claiming racism - accusing Zimmerman, the Jury, Judge, Police etc of being racist due to giving him the not guilty verdict!

What I said was where is any indication that Z was actually racist and it was actually Martin who used the racist slur! Not that am saying Martin was racist, by no means I'm not but where / how is your argument justified??

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 18:25:58

Is Zimmerman racist, only he knows.

Would he have reacted the same way if he had encountered someone white that night, we don't know.

Did the police handle this case so badly because it was just another black youth, who knows.

We can only draw our own conclusions. I personally think it would have been a very different outcome if that poor young man had been white.

JustinBsMum Sun 14-Jul-13 18:27:51

On the radio 4 news this morning they said there was a dispute and Trayvon reached for the other guys gun so he shot him, if that is the case then it is a sort of self defence. I wouldn't let someone take my gun if I was arguing with them.

Both Americans and Britain have been complaining of police racism for years, as have there been discussions on both sides of the pond of racism in the judiciary and every other power structure. The justification can be found in all those links I've given that you seem to have ignored. The discussion in the Trayvon case is only an extension of a much larger conversation that many people have been having but the mainstream have mostly been ignoring.

Personally, having seen Zimmerman supporters on Twitter today, I'm not sure why anyone would want to include themselves in that group. It's been vile.

Also, saying that you're willing to sleep with a black man makes you not racist is like men saying they're not misogynistic if they sleep with women. It's doesn't make much sense.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 18:32:52

I didn't think the LL comment was even worthy of a response tbh.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 18:35:03

Yes the poor innocent 17 year old 'gangsta' with a string of burglaries, history of violence and drug abuse, and gold teeth hasn't got "justice", how terrible

Dora why do you keep spouting this shit?

Trayvon Martin did not have a criminal record.

Zimmerman was the one with a history of violence.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 18:38:50

The LL comment; hmm

yamsareyammy Sun 14-Jul-13 18:47:19

My take on this is that we will never know some answers to this case.

The problem is that there is racism in America, and mud sticks.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 18:50:23

It's alive and well in the UK too.

Chanatan Sun 14-Jul-13 18:53:06

Very much alive in the UK.

Mixxy Sun 14-Jul-13 19:03:23

He racially profiled a young black man. This was not disputed by his own defence. They said he was reasonable to profile him racially. They even put a witness on the stand to say her house had been broken into by a black guy to add to the case that it was reasonable to assume Martins guilt. Why people don't understand this...

crescentmoon Sun 14-Jul-13 20:26:14
HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 20:32:02

His appearance changes nothing.

Chanatan Sun 14-Jul-13 20:33:08

I dont get what point you are trying to make crescentmoon

crescentmoon Sun 14-Jul-13 21:09:04

sorry i saw this point a poster had made on the first page....

"I can understand thickos in America being taken in by the laughable media coverage of the case (using a picture of Martin when he was 13 FFS), but it's disappointing so many in the UK are stupid enough to be taken in by it too."

and replied without reading through to page 4. that snopes link deals with the 'misinformation' that trayvon's pic was of a 13 year old, that he was actually a wannabe gangster, gold teeth etc by saying photos circulated instead and reported on were actually of different young men. apologies if it has already been linked to.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Sun 14-Jul-13 21:29:55

Has there ever been a murder case before where the victims dental work was held up as evidence to his character?!

niceguy2 Sun 14-Jul-13 21:53:52

20 years for a warning shot

The thing I don't understand is how Zimmerman gets off after shooting Martin dead in such dubious circumstances under the 'stand your ground' defence yet this lady gets 20 years for firing a warning shot against her abusive ex.

Where's the justice?

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 22:15:17

The SYG defence was not used in the Zimmerman trial. It was simple self defence, valid in all 50 states.

Boomba Sun 14-Jul-13 22:32:26

Whether you agree with SYG or not is irrelevant really. Zimmerman was the one with the gun follwing Travyvon. This thing stinks

forehead Sun 14-Jul-13 22:36:55

The verdict is a bloody joke.

forehead Sun 14-Jul-13 22:39:53

Dora you ARE racist . Simple as.

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 22:48:43

Oh Lord...Just sat watching one of the witnesses for Martin - his friend Rachel Geantel - Ladies - Google this on YouTube !! I have literally lost brain cells watching this sham of a witness! You won't get me unless you watch it and will then understand what I mean!

Boomba Sun 14-Jul-13 22:54:02

Grrrrr....surely Trayvon was using SYG for any interaction he had with Zimmerman....Zimmerman was the one who was following him....can you SYG against someone who is SYG??

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 22:58:22

Oh my word - on the YouTube vid of Rachel's interrogation, Tracy Martin is laughing !! Okay, she's undeniably laughable, but Trayvon's father ?!

Boomba Sun 14-Jul-13 22:58:49

chrissie...sham of a witness???

surely you mean a sham of a prosecuter??

ChrissieTay Sun 14-Jul-13 22:59:54

Boomba - have you watched this vid??! Seriously, even Trayvon's father is laughing...laughing in court!!

Boomba Sun 14-Jul-13 23:07:35

yes. If I were her I would have omitted to say that Trayvon had described Zimmerman as 'a crazy arsed cracker' but apart from that...the prosecuter had her repeat that louder and louder over and over, under the pretence that he couldnt hear her. Because his case is shit and slurring Trayvon is the best he can do. Seems it was as good as it needed to be

(sorry I meant defence not prosecuter)

I dont see Trayvons father laughing...it was more an expression of frustration/despair...knowing that the 'cracker' reference will be bad

Seems it was an accurate description though, huh

scallopsrgreat Sun 14-Jul-13 23:09:50

It was certainly a key point during the trial Tabitha.Zimmerman lied about knowing and understanding it. So there was some significance attributed to that law otherwise why mention it?

From the article: "The statute is central to Zimmerman's defense in a case that captivated the United States throughout much of 2012 because police initially declined to arrest Zimmerman based on his self-defense argument and right to use deadly force under Florida law."

Shame the police didn't decline to arrest Marissa Alexander for 6 weeks under that law (or even never arrest her). Except of course she was black, didn't kill or injure anyone yet still finds herself doing 20 yrs for defending herself against a man who was attacking her and her family.

The fact is Zimmerman created by himself and for no reason, despite warnings the events that lead to Trayvon Martin's death. Marissa Alexander didn't create the situation she found herself in and yet she is the one in jail.

This blog post has an interesting take on the prosecutor and inherent racism within the system. Racism (like other discrimination and oppression) doesn't just come in spoken insults or violent acts. It is subliminal and intrinsic to society.

Mixxy Mon 15-Jul-13 01:20:57

boomba It was a SYG defense, which operates in 25 states only. SYG amends self-defense in that you don't have to attempt to flee before you use justifiable force.
Zimmerman got off based on SYG, Alexander did not.

PatPig Mon 15-Jul-13 05:27:06

It was not SYG, that is a misrepresentation as part of the BBC's standard 'American are gun crazed racists loons' narrative. If someone is on top of you smashing your head into the ground then there is no option to flee.

Pursuing him was not SYG either, that is standard neighbourhood watch behaviour. I've met my local NHW in England, and they are a paranoid bunch, and would certainly investigate anyone who didnt fit, be they a white 'chav' in a hoodie, or anyone else who looked like 'dodgy'.

The fact that Martin was wearing a hoodie, and was a young male, would in the Uk make hima target of suspicion, race need not enter into that for NHW to want to pursue, as young hoodie wearing males are far more likely to be criminals, by indisputable crime stats, than say 60 year old ladies - had Martin been a little old black lady, Zimmerman is unlikely to have thought her up to no good.
Young males commit grossly disproportionate amounts of crime, and suspicion is entirely justified.

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 06:08:22

mixxy Zimmerman's lawyers did not plead SYG. The case was simple selfe defense- was Martin punching and slamming Zimmerman's head into the ground to the extent to make him fear for his life and did Martin try to grab the gun? The men's histories and the events leading up to the fight were irrelevant.

The jury considered all the evidence and concluded that there was enough to answer "yes" to both of these questions. It was a fair and thorough trial.

I feel desperately sorry for Zimmerman, who very clearly did not "racially profile" Martin - the media have already accepted that they edited the 911 call to omit the fact that Zimmerman did not volunteer Martin's race; he only stated it when asked to do so.

Martin's family made their point by getting the state to investigate properly and bring the matter to trial. However they seem unable to accept that the evidence shows that their son acted like a thug.

It's fair to say that Martin would not have been killed if the US public were not allowed to carry firearms - THAT is what is wrong with America. I say that even though there is a fair chance that an unarmed Zimmerman might have been killed in the assault.

Mixxy Mon 15-Jul-13 07:39:19

You do not plead SYG, it removes from defense any attempt an demonstrate an attempt to flee. That is the legal meaning of SYG. It is the name of the legislation passed, not a new plea entered in courts.
The trial showed that Martin could not have made an attempt to try for the gun, via the dummy demonstration.

The media did not edit the 911 call. NBC news alone did. The full record shows him referring to "these punks".

creighton Mon 15-Jul-13 08:06:29

why would anyone feel sorry for a man who is a known racist, who went looking for trouble and murdered a child? oh actually we know why, he killed a black boy and that's more than okay with lots of you.

creighton Mon 15-Jul-13 08:08:09

an unarmed Zimmerman wouldn't have the guts to confront anyone he is a dirty coward

save your sympathy for the victim not the killer

Mixxy Mon 15-Jul-13 08:15:23

creighton Nobody coild be more disappointed on the verdit than me, but I don't think you can say that Zimmerman was a known racist. He wasn't. What he did (which was not denied by his own defense) is that he racially profiled Martin. Which was wrong.Criminally wrong, in my mind. The kid was going home to watch a play off game with some sweets. He was not out to commit a crime.

What is racist, was the States lack of formal investigation.

Mixxy Mon 15-Jul-13 08:18:31

Which is why the Federal government will now take over the case.

Mixxy Mon 15-Jul-13 08:31:08

And on the sympathy for Zimmerman, I sort of get it. He is a chubby losser. I watched him in the court room, formally shaking all members of his defense teams hands, looking lost. He just isn't a man firing on all mental cylanders. It is OUR fault in America that we are willing to arm these dimmer people. And it says that men have failed their themselves. The identity crisis that forces them into confrontation is one of their own making. Its sad that black youth pay the price. And another mother loses their child.

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 09:31:47

PatPig & JessieMcJessie - here here, glad there are other people on here that see it the way I do and for what it is

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 09:33:10

creighton - a 'known racist' ? How do you come up with this??!

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 09:33:12

mixxy are you a lawyer? I am. Believe me when I say that Zimmerman was not acquitted on the basis of SYG and his defense team did not invoke it. It was irrelevant because by the time he was being attacked he was on the ground and could not have retreated anyway.

Also, since when was "punks" a racist term? "Punks" can be of any race. All that Zimmerman did was categorise Martin's behaviour as being similar to that of others who had been seen in the area and who had subsequently turned out to have committed crimes. That's the essence of neighbourhood watch. The fact that Martin was probably not planning to commit a crime when Zimmerman started watching him became irrelevant when he DID commit a crime by beating Zimmerman and threatening to kill him. And why did he do that? Because he had been brought up to be completely paranoid that white folks were out to get him and went on the attack. Why not just talk to Zimmerman and explain that he was on his way home?

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 15-Jul-13 09:33:14

When you've got a 'chubby loser', emboldened by a firearm to go out at night playing vigilante, the danger is that any altercation, no matter how trivial, has a good chance of being fatal. If Zimmerman had been tried in a UK court his self-defence plea would probably have been rejected on the grounds that his actions were disproportionate and that unreasonable force was used. Thinking back to the Tony Martin case, arming yourself with a loaded gun automatically makes you an aggressor, not a defender. It's a pity US law is so loaded.

As for race riots, I think this is going to be like Rodney King all over again. People are very angry and I think they have good reason.

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 09:40:48

Oh my God it was NOT racial !!! WHY are you all presuming Zimmerman was / is a racist?? I just don't get it ?! confused

Mixxy Mon 15-Jul-13 09:53:43

My mother is a judge. Are you operating under the Crown or Florida? I am bar certified New York.

I didn't assert he was acquitted under SYG. He was acquitted under the element within SYG that allows for deadly force without an attempt to flee.

"Punks" is not a racist term. I have stated that I didn't think Zimmerman was a racist, but did racially profile. He stated that 'these 'punks always het away with it'. His own defense brought in a neighbor to testify that she had been burgularized by a black recently. It was to lay grounds for reasonable defense.

Zimmerman did m ot identify himself as a neighbourhood watch man. Thus giving no identification of himself, which was clear from the phone call Martin was on at the time. Zimmerman had no powers of detention, regardless. Zimmerman disregarded dispatches instructions to him to NOT FOLLOW.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 10:05:05

no you don't, and you probably never will Chrissie

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 10:07:20
JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 10:22:34

mixxy I said "Zimmerman....very clearly did not "racially profile" Martin - the media have already accepted that they edited the 911 call to omit the fact that Zimmerman did not volunteer Martin's race; he only stated it when asked to do so."

You replied: "The media did not edit the 911 call. NBC news alone did. The full record shows him referring to "these punks"."

You now say that "Punks" is not a racist term. So why did you mention it in support of your argument that Zimmerman DID racially profile Martin? What you mean is that Zimmerman profiled him as a criminal. It was Martin's clothing and behaviour that gave rise to the suspicion. That is why Zimmerman didn't call 911 and say "there's a black guy acting suspiciously". He said that there was someone acting suspiciously and when asked the race of that person he told the dispatcher that he was black. It is not a crime to suspect someone else of a crime.

On what basis do you conclude that Zimmerman attempted to detain Martin? The evidence accepted by the jury was that Martin initiated the physical contact, unexpectedly so.
The dispatcher gave evidence that when he said to Zimmerman that he did not need him to follow Martin, it was not an instruction it was advice. "We don't need you to do that" not "Do not do that".

Regarding SYG, you said upthread "Zimmerman got off based on SYG, Alexander did not." How dos that square with you now saying "I didn't assert he was acquitted under SYG."?

To answer your question, I am not a US-qualified lawyer, though I do have cause in my job to refer to a lot of US cases and 15 years of legal practice have trained me to understand legal argument. I think we will have to agree to differ about the technicality of how SYG was invoked in the trial.

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 15-Jul-13 10:39:56

Even if Zimmerman wasn't acting out of racist motives, I think the reason there will be disturbances is that the population suspects that, if the skin colours were reversed, and a black man had gone out armed and gone on to shot an innocent white kid dead in the street... even if that white kid had kicked off.... the jury would not have acquitted.

AmberLeaf Mon 15-Jul-13 10:42:19

And on the sympathy for Zimmerman, I sort of get it. He is a chubby losser

He wasnt chubby when he killed Trayvon Martin.

He put on about 100lb in the run up to the trial.Smart move it would seem.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 10:57:36

exactly cogito and it wouldnt have fucking happened in the first place. Black men dont tend to follow white children around on the basis of some fucked up stereotyping

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 10:59:56

punks is not a racist term in itself. We know full well who Zimmerman was refering to collectively though dont we. You can play as dumb as you like, but Trayvon was murdered for being a black boy.

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 11:00:33

cogito if the public takes an acquittal based on a thorough and fair trial as an indication that justice would not have been done in another, totally theoretical trial then it is misguided and in my view, wilfully disregarding the facts to its own ends.Perhaps US justice is flawed, but this trial is not evidence for such flaws. The anger of the public should NOT be focussed on George Zimmerman. He has been proven innocent and the public should respect that.

Oh and Martin didn't just "kick off" he beat Zimmerman severely and the Florida law relating to self defense render Zimmerman's act legal. As I said, it is the fact that it was legal for him to defend himself with a gun that should be criticised in this sorry situation.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:02:40

He has been proven innocent and the public should respect that

NO they shouldnt

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 11:04:10

No, Boomba, Trayvon was killed in an act of legal self defence by a man whom he attacked, using force that was wildly disproportionate to the verbal challenge made of him.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:06:25

yadda yadda...its easy to make it sound so reasonable isnt it
its bollocks

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 11:07:09

Actually I should modify that - one is not proven innocent, so the correct phrase is that the State was unable to prove his guilt beyond reasonale doubt. And the public should respect that.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:07:26

did you read my link to 'The Root'

it goes on and on and on......its always rationalised

Openyourmind Mon 15-Jul-13 11:09:21

Zimmerman isn't white.

Or am I missing something?

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 11:09:51

So Boomba, you don't believe that Martin attacked first?

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:14:23

I think Trayvon was a child that went out to get some sweets. On his way home from the shops he was followed by a grown man. I think he was totally justified to take action against the man. If my children are followed by a man, I would support them in any action they thought was necessary to get them safe. The man then shot the child with the gun he was carrying when he decided to follow the child

Trayvon defended himself. Zimmerman was the aggressor

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:15:35

Zimmerman poses a threat to black children and men. He has been told his actions were justified. He should be in prison to keep innocent children safe

Kiriwawa Mon 15-Jul-13 11:17:32

If there had been a massive fight, Martin would have had injuries. He had a small graze on one knuckle, not at all consistent with some of the wild allegations on this thread

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:18:26

Oh Boomba get off the bandwagon and put down the (race) card - If my children started laying into a man just for following them I'd be very disappointed in their 'thug' like actions to be honest hmm

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:19:11

fuck you ChrissieTAy

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:19:50

Martin was only yards from home - instead of acting like the 'tough' guy, why did he not just run instead of approaching trouble ?

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:20:18

Ha ha @ Boomba wink Ouch!!

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 11:21:11

Because Fight:Flight kicked in.

We never know how we'll react in those situations, 'thug' hmm at people who use that phrase to describe anyone btw or 'non thug.'

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:21:23

im glad you think its a laughing matter

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 11:21:28

So slamming Zimmean's head repeatedly against the concrete was necessary to get Trayvon Martin safe? Zimmerman was not brandishing a gun at him and threatening to kill him. He had already called the police, for goodness sake- he was hardly going to murder a kid while he waited for them. The worst that could have happened would have been that Trayvon was arrested by the police and been released without charge when it became clear that Zimmerman's suspicions were unfounded. To "get himself safe" all Martin had to do was talk politely to Zimmerman and the police and tell the truth about what he was doing. Going on the attack was precisely the opposite of "getting himself safe".

yamsareyammy Mon 15-Jul-13 11:23:41

Agreed, Open. I find it curious that people keep saying that.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 11:29:47

Zimmerman was not brandishing a gun at him and threatening to kill him

He didn't need to be for fight/flight to kick in. It's a human response we cannot control. Someone following you is a situation where that adrenalin rush can kick in. I think he should have walked home, but I can't judge someone based on a chemical surge.

Unfortunately he was correct for being uncomfortable of this man, as he is a murderer and a racist.

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:31:54

Boomba - I don't at all actually, I'm laughing at you for being so narrow-minded and judgemental towarfs Zimmerman as in calling him a racist!

You didn't answer my question - what backs up your comment regarding him being a known racist?

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:33:15

JessieMc - Agreed ...

Question for all you in favour of Martin - Was it acceptable for him to bash Z's head against concrete and break his nose??? hmm

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:34:41

you are advocating a child confronting an adult that is following them?????

YY...is that the advice you give your children? if you are being followed by a strange man....talk to him politely and justify why you have been to the shops...and why you find it necessary to be walking around out of doors????

Or maybe it is Zimmerman who should have identified himself and talked politely to the child he was following? Or maybe he should have taken the police advice to stop following the child? Or maybe he should stop following children like the creepy fucker that he is?

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:35:13

SpecialAgent - Would you not call somebody bashing somebody else's head a thug?? Would you not call somebody knowingly approaching trouble a thug ?? I'm sure you would actually if your child had been in Z's shoes! hmm

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:36:32

your question has been answered a hundred times over on this thread. but like i said, it is probably something you will never understand because you are prejudice

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:37:30

The advice I would (and do) give to my boys is NOT to talk to strangers nor approach them and if trouble does arise, either try and escape the situation as best you can, or as a last resort, use self-defense techniques, ie if you are hit/kicked/punched and cannot run away to safety...

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 15-Jul-13 11:38:33

"it is misguided and in my view, wilfully disregarding the facts to its own ends"

That's the trouble with badly written and unfair laws. They make people angry. The black population of the USA is too often on the wrong end of these bad laws. I'm not going to point a finger at them for wilfully disregarding the facts in one isolated case. As with all landmark events it has struck a nerve and the authorities will have to deal with the fallout.

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:38:35

Ha ha Boomba can you please define my prejudice??!

I am NOT racist, but I DO have the opinion that this attack was NOT racial ...

Simples wink

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:39:03

my post at 1134 is to jessie

Trayvon had no idea that Zimmerman was 'neighbourhood watch' or that he had called the police

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:39:18

P.S. Boomba - You seem to have a real issue with people whose opinions differ to yours? Are these all racists too?

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:41:21

Boomba - I do actually agree that Z should have politely explained to Martin who he was but how are we to know that the fight broke out straight away? Maybe Martin didn't give him time and just pounced?

libertine73 Mon 15-Jul-13 11:41:21
Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:42:00

no i have no problem with people who have different opinions to me. Thats people disingenious. I have issues with institutionalised racism and I have issue with people defending child murderers

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:43:03

libertine73 - I think he's already had it back now. See I'm not sure what I believe on this one? As he was found to be not guilty, why take his gun license away? But at the same time, yes it's strange in the US that they would give him the murder weapon back?! hmm

yamsareyammy Mon 15-Jul-13 11:46:45

Can all the posters who disagree with the verdict, prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was guilty?

Or actually catergorically say that he was guilty beyond all reasonable doubt?

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:47:02

Boomba - Just because my opinion differs to yours does not make me disingenious or insincere! That's a little niave to claim that actually!

What really baffles me though is when white people are killed by black people and in some cases the race IS the issue, you don't see white people throwing massive protests and death threats etc ??!!

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 11:47:15

Boomba, stop wittering on about Martin being a child. He was 17 years old. You are only using that term to dramatise your own false narrative.

If Martin genuinely thought that Z was out to kidnap or molest him, all he had to do was go home. However grom the evidence that I heard it is highly unlikely that martin thought anything other than that Zimmerman was accusing him of being up to no good. Now, this may have caused righteous indignation and pissed him off that he was possibly under suspicion just for being black, but violence was not the appropriate response.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 11:49:24

SpecialAgent - Would you not call somebody bashing somebody else's head a thug?? Would you not call somebody knowingly approaching trouble a thug ?? I'm sure you would actually if your child had been in Z's shoes!

Actually with Zimmerman's background of violence and racial profiling, I'd be bloody ashamed of him for stalking a teenager against police wishes because he thought He Knew Better.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:50:53

he didnt know he was under suspicion ffs. He didnt know why the guy was following him...maybe he wanted to batter him? maybe he wanted to rape him?...

so if your 17 year old boy was followed and shot dead by a 30 year old man, you wouldnt feel that there was a distinction to be made between adult and child?

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 11:53:46

Agree Jessie that violence was not the appropriate response. Apologies, I'm so upset with this case I haven't made that clear. Trayvon was wrong to use violence.

What I'm trying to (clumsily) say is we all have a fight/flight response to frightening situations. Some people have it lower than others. Trayvon approached Zimmerman and that was wrong but I'm saying I can understand people acting irrationally in the face of fear. I have in a not too dissimilar scenario. I was also wrong but sometimes survival instincts kick in.

Like I said, Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter, which IMO could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt as he provoked the scenario. The fact he wasn't charged on that is what IMO has the public so upset.

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 11:53:54

So I'm "prejudiced" Boomba? You think that I can't believe that Zimmerman wasn't guilty because I am predisposed to think the worst of black people? I must tell my Kenyan boyfriend, he'll be very disappointed in me.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 11:54:22

17 year old seems like a child to me? That's very young.

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:55:08

Ha ha nice one Jessie! wink

Boomba - No, to reiterate Jessie, 17 is NOT a child!

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:56:31

it is also very relevant that Trayvon was a child; because his response to be followed, may have been more child like...less 'correct'. He was not so worldly wise, and that is why he engaged with Zimmerman instead of running?

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 11:56:45

Wasn't Z like only 28 himself? So not exactly an old man!

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:57:42

Haha yes Jessie, you cant possibly be prejudice if you have a Kenyan boyfriend can you now hmm

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 11:58:35

I'm not 28 and I still view 17 year olds as children blush

>Feels like a granny gray boots now<

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 11:59:22

but actually JESSIE I didnt accuse you of being prejudice...i accused chrissie of being prejudice

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 12:10:11

OK Boomba, perhaps some confusion due to you replying to Chrissie when she asked you to define her prejudice that your post at 11:34 had been aimed at me- I presumed that was the one in which you accused someone of prejudice. my fault, should have checked. Did you ever answer Chrissie's question then? And in any event perhaps that little personal detail about me will help you understand that none of what I have said here is based on race.

And no, I don't see any particular disparity between 17 and 28- both adults, physically and mentally.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 12:14:28

Actually 17 year olds are not adults mentally, and in the case of a male, not physically either.

Not that that changes how sad this all is.

I'm glad Americans are protesting. He needs manslaughter (even if, IMO he's a murderer it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt manslaughter at the least)

I hope this becomes a crux for policy or legislation changes in Florida.

Especially after Casey Anthony as well..

RedJeans Mon 15-Jul-13 12:15:50

What I don't understand though, is why someone has the right to shoot and kill somebody who is punching them?? I would agree that you absolutely have the right to defend yourself in that situation but certainly not by killing the other person! And Zimmerman put himself in that position by following someone he believed to be suspicious.

Martin could also be seen as acting in self-defence, we have no idea what Zimmerman said to him before the fight - because he is now dead!

I also struggle so much with the fact that it is legal in the US for people to just carry guns around with them, the murder could never have happened if this wasn't the case.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 12:18:06

oh get over yourself jessie I know plenty of racists with black partners and MR kids

its the old 'my best friend is black dontchaknow' card

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 12:18:32

On the gun front if America refuses most gun policies (ridiculous IMO but whatever) Surely having a criminal record of violence should put you out of the running to own a gun?

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 12:18:54

agree specialagent

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 12:21:16

oh get over yourself jessie I know plenty of racists with black partners and MR kids

its the old 'my best friend is black dontchaknow' card

^^ This Boomba. DH is black and I'm shocked to see how many racist 'friends and wives of friends' he has. It is actually hard for me to fathom but I know mixed race couples where one is ridiculously racist (thinking of one in particular, guy is a PIG)

I know it seems silly if you haven't experienced it, but it really does exist! Though in the cases I know of, it's part of emotional abuse sadly which has nothing to do with skin colour sad

anyway, off point. Point is racists in a mixed partnership do exist.

libertine73 Mon 15-Jul-13 12:21:40

Do you Boomba? How strange.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 12:24:40

strange? yes. unusual? not really

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 12:26:47

Sadly, it isn't unusual. It's used as another stick for an emotional abuser to beat their partner with.

Realistically, if you were an abusive arsehole, who better to date than a minority? They're already second class citizens. Easier to beat them down.

I feel horrid writing that sad But from what I've seen sadly it can be true. REFUSE to let it happen to MY DD!! (and DS's)

libertine73 Mon 15-Jul-13 12:31:09

I had never even considered that, how horrible sad

AmberLeaf Mon 15-Jul-13 12:35:28

What really baffles me though is when white people are killed by black people and in some cases the race IS the issue, you don't see white people throwing massive protests and death threats etc

Is it really baffling?

White people don't need to 'throw' massive protests because when a white person is killed by a black person justice is served.

If the roles were reversed in this case and zimmerman were black and Trayvon white, zimmerman would be in jail now. quite possibly on death row.

he was hardly going to murder a kid while he waited for them

Except he did murder [justifiably apparently] a kid and he didnt wait for the police did he? he was told not to follow him but he did anyway/

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 12:37:07

IME its not so much overt/abusive racism; but covert racism where people hold prejudices/misconceptions, they dont consider themselves racist at all, dont even realise it...it can be very subtle

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Mon 15-Jul-13 12:49:49

ChrissieTay since yesterday morning you have been trying to justify murder.

My dss is 17, he is a child, he is also black - what would have happened if Zimmerman behaved like that towards my ss, I don't know.

Luckily we live in the uk and I don't have to worry about this as much as parents in the US.

The under lying message in cases like this is that black life is cheap in America.

Some people will disagree with me til the cows come home but we know that the second the police arrived Trayvon was treated like the criminal, not Zimmerman.

The force used was disproportionate and no one will convince me otherwise.

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 12:51:42

Interesting, not something I have come across, thankfully. I guess it just goes to show that personal circumstances tell us nothing about a person's views or values. Anyway I can assure you that none of my views on this situation are based on anything other than an objective analysis of the facts an I would have come to the same view had they been anonymised to "person A" and "person B" with no race revealed. However I not convinced that all of you could say the same.

Regarding Zimmerman's arrest record, perhaps the fact that the charges were dropped has aomething to do with him getting the gun- he was never convicted of anything, or even tried before this trial. However I am not sure that it makes any difference as he did NOT pull the gun until Martin was beating him so hard that his life was at risk (I am even prepared to concede that perhaps the bit about Martin going for the gun was just Zimmerman's word against a dead man).

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 12:58:21

Some people will disagree with me til the cows come home but we know that the second the police arrived Trayvon was treated like the criminal, not Zimmerman

THIS^^

its unthinkable to some that Trayvon was innocent/blameless; And that Zimmermans initial suspicion and subsequent actions of Trayvon were understandable

there is also an underlying narrative that a 17 year old black boy, is less of a child/ less innocent than a 17 year old white boy

Have you seen the closing arguement in the film 'A Time to Kill'?? It sums up a little about how black victims are viewed different to white victims (i wont link as its rape related/triggering)

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 13:00:43

Amber, the point I was making was about Zimmerman's intent- he had a gun. He allegedly wanted to punish Martin for the sins of all the "punks" he had never caught in the past. So if he intended to do that by shooting Martin unprovoked, why call the police, who would then arrive to arrest him for the crime? Clearly all he wanted was to seeartin arrested, and that's why he followed him, so that he could point the police in the right direction. Perhaps he DID even have misguided plans to restrain Martin, but Martin went for him before he had made any sort of physical gesture towards him. The point is that he only formed the intent to kill was when he had to do so to save his own life.

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 13:01:40

Hokey - You have obviously not read all of my posts - I'm NOT justifying murder (!) ... And I assume I need to capitalize this now I AM MERELY ANGERED THAT IT IS BEING LABELLED AS ANOTHER RACE / HATE CRIME, WHEN THERE WASN'T EVEN ANY ELEMENT OF RACIAL ABUSE INVOLVED !!! Jeez !

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 13:05:06

"it is unthinkable to some that trayvon was innocent/blameless".

Yes, weirdly I do find it unthinkable that smashing someone's head into the pavement when they haven't laid a finger on you is a "blameless" act.

AmberLeaf Mon 15-Jul-13 13:08:01

Yes Trayvon had no marks/injuries that would be consistent with battering someone to that degree minutes/seconds before his death.

Ive read his autopsy report and he had no such injuries.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 13:08:08

ah well...status quo maintained.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 13:08:48

May I ask how you know - beyond reasonable doubt - That a man with a racist track record like Zimmerman had that his stalking Martin had 'no element of racial abuse involved? -

Remember - Beyond a reasonable doubt - Can you back that up with evidence?

A Time to Kill was such a sad book/film. I know many dismissed it as PC nonsense but especially in the time it was released and the setting, it really wasn't. The end [spoiler] Doesn't even imply he got away with the guard/No time etc, etc [spoiler]

The most disturbing part was the reaction of the jury when they were asked to imagine that innocent child wasn't white. sad

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 13:10:37

There's also a nurse in severe facial injuries on here (sorry can't remember the title) who said if he were beaten to a pulp he simply would not have been released with butterfly strips.

Also Jessie I obviously strongly disagree with you but my point about racism existing in couples wasn't meant 'Ha ha! You emotionally abuse your boyfriend!' Sorry if it came across that way!

RedJeans Mon 15-Jul-13 13:16:07

But Jessie, you cannot possibly know whether Zimmerman "made any sort of physical gesture towards him" or not, its Zimmerman's word against a dead boy's! And of course he isnt going to admit that he provoked Martin into attacking him/defending himself

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 13:27:04

I'm sorry but I fail to see how a woman (in this case / example) would consider a black partner if she were a racist?? I think you are just using that to justify your nonsense!

JessieMcJessie Mon 15-Jul-13 13:28:29

Special Agent, no I didn't take it that way and I was sad to hear that you have seen situations like that; it's not one familiar to me and the psychological analysis does make sense. I actually can also fully believe that there are people in mixed race relationships who are racist, again not something I have witnessed though.

Regarding whether Martin was the aggressor, you and Red Jeans are missing the point- of course I can't possibly know, but the evidence presented at trial (eg an expert who said his injuries were consistent with being beaten to an extent that he feared his life) was accepted by the jury to raise sufficient doubt to render a prosecution unsafe. There has been a fair and thorough trial, we were not there to hear all the evidence but we need to trust those who were and not second-guess or disregard the verdict otherwise the whole syatem collapses.

JaquelineHyde Mon 15-Jul-13 13:36:36

I am disgusted with the result of this trial but not surprised.

Once again the US justice system has failed black Americans and a young black boy (yes a boy not a man) who was brutally gunned down is being blamed for his own death.

He lies dead and the best we can do is label him a thug who got what was coming to him (because lets not beat around the bush here that has been the argument of quite a few on this thread).

Zimmerman was/is in my mind guilty of murder, he stalked an innocent 17year old boy safe in the knowledge that he was carrying a deadly weapon. Martin was carrying skittles.

Zimmerman made it quite clear he was following Martin and it is believed Martin would have heard Zimmerman's insults directed at him via the call to the police. Zimmerman clearly purposefully intimidated a 17year old boy safe in the knowledge he could reach for his loaded gun and shoot to kill at any point he felt threatened himself.

Martin felt threatened and he turned round and punched Zimmerman which then lead to a scuffle. Zimmerman felt threatened and shot Martin dead.

Zimmerman caused this situation, Zimmerman provoked the situation, Zimmerman always knew he was safe because he was carrying a loaded gun that he was just itching to have a reason to use.

Yet this is all Martin's fault because he is a thug hmm

Racial profiling is racist. Zimmerman's defence team admitted there was racial profiling. We can all decide for ourselves whether we feel this makes Zimmerman a racist.

Institutional racism is alive and kicking in the American justice system.

If I was in America I would be in the streets today protesting as loudly as I could.

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 13:47:15

Specialagent - Where are you getting this 'racist track record' shit from?!

Send me a link as I'd be genuinely interested to read it please

Openyourmind Mon 15-Jul-13 13:48:13

I assume you were there?

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 13:54:14

I am actually surprised and quite frankly disgusted in you on here who seem to think it was highly acceptable for Martin to carry out his part of the violence and was totally 'innocent' ?! shock

God help your children if you're teaching them this, shame on you hmm

JaquelineHyde Mon 15-Jul-13 13:58:10

No open I obviously wasn't there (what a stupid question) but I have listened to nearly every bit of evidence used and accepted at the trial, and from that I have formed my opinion.

Chrissie No not innocent but he has paid for his part in this with his life. Zimmerman is the one who has been declared innocent, despite having shot a young boy in cold blood.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 13:59:33

like anyone gives a shit what you think about the way we are raising our kids confused

Not just cold blood, he followed and killed Trayvon because it was "God's Plan" and he regrets nothing.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 14:04:32

fucking arsehole

JaquelineHyde Mon 15-Jul-13 14:11:30

Excellent link Little thanks for that.

It really does say a lot about a man who declares on national television that he has no regrets about killing a young boy and would do it again if he had to.

AmberLeaf Mon 15-Jul-13 14:12:47

God help your children if you're teaching them this, shame on you

Back at ya.

Needtostopbuyingcrap Mon 15-Jul-13 14:14:47

This case has really gotten to me.
First off, if both of these men were of the same colour this wouldn't of even made the national news.

I wish race wasn't brought into everything, not everything is racist. This coming from a black woman.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 14:18:44
AmberLeaf Mon 15-Jul-13 14:19:44

Gods plan and no regrets?

What a fucking arsehole.

AmberLeaf Mon 15-Jul-13 14:21:45

First off, if both of these men were of the same colour this wouldn't of even made the national news

No because the killer would have been arrested that night and jailed.

creighton Mon 15-Jul-13 14:22:04

needto, most black people want to toddle through life minding their own business but there are a lot of other people who are looking to make trouble for us and then somehow blame us for it.

unfortunately this has to be called what it is, a racially motivated murder.

It must be nice to live in a world many of you are in where you can presume that the legal system is fair, thorough, and unbiased. Where your skin has no effect on how you will be viewed. Where even judges and lawyers in the system give lessons on how to deal with the police because police brutality against the community is so well known. Where that kind of video becomes part of "the talk" as they get older. Where even the most well known, well liked, and wealthy part of your community is afraid of being killed because of his skin. I teach mine similar to how LeVar Burton does - both in how not to get killed and being aware of race.

To live in a world where people don't call you racist when you protest about one person's death when we've been fighting this fight over and over away from the media spotlight. Where your child's death won't be bounced around pundits and media frenzy to cover up all the rest of what is going wrong in the system. Where your children aren't taken away at higher rates (more Native children are being taken now than in boarding school days). Where you won't be facing 3 times more likely to be raped than a White woman because of the racist imagery everywhere that gets downplayed as "fun".

Not everything is racist and Zimmerman as a Latino man has likely faced plenty as have I being Metis; however, America's judicial system is notoriously biased. Even the Supreme Court - they've just taken away Native nations rights to determine their own citizenship (a right of every nation). A lot goes back to the 13th amendment - which got rid of slavery for everyone except prisoners (which then spawned a bunch of other horrible laws and the prison-industrial complex that makes all none weapon equipment for the military, most things found in American buildings. The irony of America not allowing imports of goods made in prison but freely exports them). The system is corrupt, to miss it is a blessed life indeed.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 14:29:51

There has been a fair and thorough trial

I think that's the crux of the disagreement Jessie, those of us who are arguing are arguing it wasn't a fair trial. I don't understand why Zimmerman wasn't convicted of Manslaughter? May I ask why you believe he didn't deserve Manslaughter? (Not the murder charge, just that one.)

BTW Thank you for being respectful in your disagreements, and seeing I wasn't attacking you snidely through examples. smile I enjoy debating with reasonable people like you and Cheerful

Chrissy, I was going to waste my time explaining things to you and showing you links, but you are coming across uncomfortably racist to me. Bluntly, like Boomba said... We don't really give a shit if you feel sorry for our DC. Frankly I feel sorry for yours. Hopefully they're young enough they can learn at school and through society not to think like you, to be open minded and accepting of others. (Like Jessie... She doesn't agree with me yet does not come across the way you do. At ALL.)

But if you genuinely are interested in this case, you can easily Google and see Zimmerman had a disturbing history of racial profiling, came from a racist family (AKA his dad's weird ebook) and a history of racial comments at work.

yamsareyammy Mon 15-Jul-13 14:30:57

I asked 3 hours ago if anyone was saying that Zimmerman was guilty "beyond reasonable doubt", and no one has said he is.

Which is exactly the same as the jury.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 14:34:00

I really need to type faster. blush

That link where he basically brags and smugly uses The Lord as his defence? angry

Almost as fucked up as OJ's book 'What IF I killed my Wife?' Where he gets off on the details.

Sick pricks. At least one of them is in jail (albeit, not the crime he should be in jail for)

I'm glad America is so pissed off and protesting. If Trayvon had been killed here I bloody well would be!!!

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 14:36:13

yes. at least people are protesting

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 14:36:41

good post sporks

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 14:47:47

My children ARE being brought up to be extremely open minded and respectful and thank God they won't be in the mindset of you people who seem to believe you should smash somebody's head into a concrete pavement! That is actually shocking!

I think it is laughable that purely because I disagree with you, you call me a racist! Ha ha grow the fuck up! Jesus Christ you are a sensitive lot aren't you!

Fed up of having to 'be careful' what you say these days in case you get labelled a racist! Fucking pathetic! They need to lose the chips on their shoulders, in thinking 'white' people are out to get them! No more to be said on the subject!

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 14:48:53

I asked 3 hours ago if anyone was saying that Zimmerman was guilty "beyond reasonable doubt", and no one has said he is.

I did! I didn't use you by poster name but I responded a few posts after and said I believed he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of manslaughter, and asked if anybody could explain beyond a reasonable doubt, using only facts (as I did, because I don't like to admit in a court, TECHNICALLY murder was beyond a reasonable doubt, but not manslaughter) But nobody replied?

Check my posts, I did reply, I thought it was a good (and difficult emotionally for me) question! smile

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 14:53:55

Uhm, I am white. My DC are not. Does that mean there is 'no more more to be said on the subject?' confused Even if I weren't white, you don't get to bang a gavel and say thread closed, black people need to get over themselves. (WTAF? You think you're NOT racist??!)

Though if you have nothing left to say on the subject then... Goodbye? confused I will continue commenting however.

I still think hope your kids are young so they have a chance, and I still feel sorry for them, and I still think you are a racist. You make me deeply uncomfortable.

Not like Jessie, she disagrees but is yet to resort to personal insults, her argument is calm, valid and fair even if I personally think she is wrong.

But you did resort to personal insults about my parenting, so as far as I'm concerned, fair game for me to give my own honest opinion on how you come across.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 14:55:46

They need to lose the chips on their shoulders, in thinking 'white' people are out to get them! No more to be said on the subject!

Who is 'they?' Do you mean black people?

No. You're not a racist. Not at all. hmm

Could throw a true insult at you but you really aren't worth it. I'll stick to my opinions on your character.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 14:56:05

Jesus Christ you are a sensitive lot aren't you

Fed up of having to 'be careful' what you say these days in case you get labelled a racist! *Fucking pathetic! They need to *lose the chips on their shoulders, in thinking 'white' people are out to get them! No more to be said on the subject!

We have all heard that a hundred times before chrissie its part of the script isnt it

non-racists dont need to 'be careful what they say'

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 15:01:23

Actually I think we're on our way Not even close to there yet, sadly, but on our way to RACISTS being the ones who need to start watching their tongues.

yamsareyammy Mon 15-Jul-13 15:08:26

Yes, you sort of did Special.

But the case was for murder, and no one else has even come close to saying that Zimmerman was guilty of murder beyond reasonable doubt.Same as the jury decided.

And herein lies the problem. Emotionally, many of us may think he is guilty of murder, but we dont seem to be sure beyond reasonable doubt.
Which is actually quite a difficult thing to get a convicition in a court room with.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 15:25:57

He was also charged with manslaughter yams?

I was saying that as much as I wish, grudgingly you're right. I couldn't prove murder beyond a reasonable doubt on the evidence presented at trial.

I find it shocking he wasn't charged with manslaughter though, I believe that was TRULY proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

So I guess I'm asking you the same question and your reasons for why (if, of course) you believe Zimmerman didn't meet the courtroom and legal requirements for Manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt?

Needtostopbuyingcrap Mon 15-Jul-13 15:29:35

I'm shocked that Trayvons mother has trademarked his name.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Mon 15-Jul-13 15:30:41

Where? How? On what? confused

Can you even legally trademark a first name? I didn't think you could.

PatPig Mon 15-Jul-13 16:33:53

Just FWIW Zimmerman was not told not to follow Martin. He was told 'we don't need you to do that' by the 911 dispatcher who has no legal authority to tell anyone what to do.

So it is simply wrong to say that the police told Zimmerman not to follow.

AmberLeaf Mon 15-Jul-13 16:45:35

Fed up of having to 'be careful' what you say these days in case you get labelled a racist! Fucking pathetic! They need to lose the chips on their shoulders, in thinking 'white' people are out to get them! No more to be said on the subject!

Ive heard all of that before, yes its part of the script. Only a racist needs to 'be careful' what they say.

...and yes please explain who 'they' are.

AmberLeaf Mon 15-Jul-13 16:53:55

Fed up of having to 'be careful' what you say these days in case you get labelled a racist! Fucking pathetic! They need to lose the chips on their shoulders, in thinking 'white' people are out to get them! No more to be said on the subject!

Ive heard all of that before, yes its part of the script. Only a racist needs to 'be careful' what they say.

...and yes please explain who 'they' are.

Special Agent It was so no one could profit off of the slogans using his name not trying to trademark the name itself.

Chrissie, you have asked multiple times for evidence. I gave posts full of links to provide the evidence of the problems within the system and yet you keep ignoring it. How you could ignore all those stats, all those names, all those faces, that video of that Latina woman, and not think there is an institutional problem of racism within the judicial system I don't know. Most likely you are ignoring all evidence being presented and instead belittling us as overemotional and chips on our shoulders. I am not black, I'm as white passing as Latino Zimmerman, but yes, institutional hate does upset me and many others. I think it should upset us. I don't think it is worth supporting and defending a system that isn't looking out for me, it's looking out itself.

Someone can do or say something racist without "being" racist; however, if you care more about people thinking you're racist than dealing with racism, then maybe you have problem. Because very little comes out of people thinking your racist, tons of people will even defend you, racism on the other hand has been linked with PTSD, lower life chances, and death.

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 16:57:52

LittleSpork - I don't question that there are issues with racism within the judicial system and I also agree that it's wrong and very corrupt, believe me I genuinely don't dispute that. I can't access the links too well on this iPhone but will pop on again this evening on my Kindle if get the chance.

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 16:59:26

Amberleaf - By 'they' I'm referring to the groups of Protestors, who aren't all black or the one race, so no I'm not referring to black people solely.

AmberLeaf Mon 15-Jul-13 17:15:13

Bullshit were you.

I know what you meant.

Why would the protestors who weren't black think whites were out to get them? or have 'chips on their shoulders'? Don't backtrack.

yamsareyammy Mon 15-Jul-13 18:03:05

Not sure about the manslaughter.
Not sure I could say yes, beyond reasonable doubt.
I want to, but I cant.

Seems one of my links went missing www.policymic.com/articles/48133/hero-mom-stands-up-against-officer-for-sexual-assault-in-front-of-her-two-year-old-daughter this is the Latina woman I was speaking about, I warn that this is heartbreaking and enraging.

Novascotia33 Mon 15-Jul-13 18:37:55

I know it's not exactly pertinent to the case, but I cannot get my head around how somebody can gain 100lbs while on trail for murder!!???, he looks like a different person than when he was first arrested, astounding!

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 18:38:24
AmberLeaf Mon 15-Jul-13 18:43:50

Littlespork that is disgusting.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 18:44:25

that fucking 'woman'!!! what is she? A JUDGE????

angry angry angry

JaquelineHyde Mon 15-Jul-13 18:51:18

A friend of mine just posted this on facebook and it pretty much sums up how I feel about a lot of the trash that has been spoken on this thread.

Here

AmberLeaf Mon 15-Jul-13 18:59:35

Novascotia did you see someone upthread felt sorry for him because he was a fat loser?

I think it was possibly done on purpose makes him look like an overweight out of shape older man...against the young and fit Trayvon.

Very clever.

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 19:02:45

Boomba - You strike me as an intensely angry person hmm

Have you ever sought help for that?

Not everybody will have the same opinion as you, if we all had the same opinions the world would be a boring place wouldn't it?!

Yes, the White woman in the chair ignoring her and playing with the Latina woman's daughter is the judge, yes. The "crime" they arrested for in court, the accusing a police officer thing, doesn't exist at all, she was absolutely within her rights to request a female officer for the search and to accuse the male police officer in court.

But the system is corrupt and she had no one to stand with her, not even the woman playing with her daughter ignoring her pleas who was meant to be unbiased and standing for justice.

This is why there is so much emotion, so much pain, so many "chips" - this happens day in, day out, most of it away from the spotlight. Every once in a while the media throws us a bone - normally to cover something else up or for pundits' amusements - but many people are suffering behind the scenes, many are fighting behind the scenes. And people brushing aside the issues of race, saying that it went through a courts so it must be fair, spit in our faces and ignore reality, living in a bubble immune from all of this, which, as I said must be nice, too bad the rest of us can't. Even when academic proves the problems of racism and gender profiling and the intermix of the two and how lethal they are, they not only get brushed aside, they still get promoted, even on Mumsnet racial profiling has been promoted in these threads. Stomach turning. "Cracker" a term meaning whipcracker, slavedriver, someone in authority may make people uncomfortable, other racial profiling leaves people dead. The difference, the immunity some have, should be obvious but its hidden in the education and the media representation and all the other systems that need taken apart, that we're fighting with.

It should be everyone's "opinion" that people shouldn't be arrested and killed because of racial profiling confused . It wouldn't be boring if we lost opinions that got people killed.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Mon 15-Jul-13 19:09:05

JaquelineHyde thank you for posting that, that is exactly what i have been saying this whole thread.

What Trayvon did or din't do, what he wore, what his teeth were like are not relevant to the events of that night.

Martin Bashir sums up exactly what is relevant.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 19:14:11

why chrissie? because i swear alot?
I swear when Im not angry also

I AM intensely angry about Trayvon Martin. I dont need help with that. Its a normal response. You however seem to be suffering some form of cognitive dissonance

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 19:18:55

YY JH Martin Bashir says it very well

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 20:02:18
ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 20:04:57

Classy lady! wink

Chrissie - I don't think someone who promotes racial profiling as you did earlier in this thread should be a judge of someone's class.

chocolatespiders Mon 15-Jul-13 20:12:53

JaquelineHyde - I love that thanks for sharing... hope everyone shares and gets it out there.

chocolatespiders Mon 15-Jul-13 20:17:17

I also think your post further down is excellent and wish I could lay things clearly out like you do. There was a protest planned for outside the US embassy today at 4 not sure how widespread it was.

Boomba Mon 15-Jul-13 20:28:04

chrissie i am not going to engage with you on his thread, about how classy or not I am. I dont find all your winks and 'hahas' appropriate at all

chocolatespiders Mon 15-Jul-13 21:30:27

B-37 juror signed a book deal??

JaquelineHyde Mon 15-Jul-13 22:07:31

Thanks chocolate

I'm going to keep an eye out for any demonstrations coming up that I can get to.

ChrissieTay Mon 15-Jul-13 22:08:48

Boomba - Take a frickin chill pill, you're stressin me out now! grin

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Mon 15-Jul-13 22:11:36

I am going to Florida next week, will be interesting to see what is happening out there.

chocolatespiders Mon 15-Jul-13 22:44:54

JaquelineHyde - are you in London, there is another one tomorrow.

Will try and link to the facebook event page.

Trayvon

Chrissie, if you find Boomba's mild comments so stressful, you may wish to postpone reading all that evidence I posted for your repeated requests that you said you wanted to do. It's extremely painful and stressful to watch that video, see those faces, those names, those popular and academic studies that show that the racial profiling you thought was okay earlier in this thread has cost people their lives, their families, their sense of safety for their entire lives regardless to how liked or rich they are. That it prevents actual justice being done and actual criminals being caught for the soothing of some people's confirmation biases.

Some like myself think educating ourselves and fighting the fight against oppression is all of our jobs, the idea that none of us are free while others are still being oppressed, that saying the problem isn't there is really just a way of saying that one doesn't want to see the problem and face the painful reality that is around us. But the immune bubble you seem to be in is far more comfortable and less stressful. Won't change anything or make anything better, but it's less stressful.

Link for others:Head Prosecutor comes under fire for her record

BlingBang Tue 16-Jul-13 01:14:55

Chris dietary - just read this thread and your comments and almost gleeful attitude is quite disgusting, especially this little nugget,

"I'm really surprised actually that the majority of you on here seem to think it was ok for Martin to lay into Zimmerman, throwing punches etc - soon shit himself when he saw that this "crazy, creepy cracker" as he put it, had a gun!"

yes he probably did 'shit' himself as he lay dying (so fucking funny). He would still be alive if Z hadn't took matters into his own hands that night and followed him against the advice of the emergency controllers.

You really are vile and coming across as completely disrespectful to these tragic circumstances and yes, totally racist.

BlingBang Tue 16-Jul-13 01:15:32

Chrissietay of course.

Puzzledandpissedoff Tue 16-Jul-13 10:18:12

... you don't get to bang a gavel and say thread closed

Can I just point out that surely that applies to everyone on here, not just those who happen to agree with someone's view?

Yes, there appear to be some ghastly, racist white folk about - equally, it seems there are some black folk determined to see offence where none was intended

For example, in response to a suggestion that Trayvon could have responded in a calmer manner, someone implied this involved subservience to the "masser" What the heck's going on in that person's mind??!!!

Wouldn't it be easier to just accept that there are dreadful people of every race - or would that spoil the agenda of some??

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 16-Jul-13 10:33:25

There are dreadful people of every race. I certainly wouldn't deny that personally. I think anyone who did would be very ignorant TBH.

Trayvon should have reacted in a calmer way. That I do not disagree with.

I disagree that he could have. Fight/flight is an extremely powerful response to fear.

It would be much easier to say there are dreadful people in every race, Zimmerman was one, let's move on. But many feel the system failed here and I, personally, am shocked Zimmerman is on the streets.

In my mind, it somehow makes it worse that he's free because he got to label Trayvon with his 'self dence' argument when he's in the ground. It's like extra injustice for his family that not only did he get off, Trayvon is blamed for this terribly sad situation. Extra injustice IMO.

On the subject of narrow minded posters, there's one poster here who is disturbingly racist. I'm not so naive to believe that racism doesn't exist (sadly, it's very prevelant, even here... In the US it seems much worse!) But most posters who disagree about my opinion don't seem so bloody... As another poster put it... Gleeful about this tragedy. Like you for example. You don't agree, but you're not sneering at me for disagreeing IYSWIM?

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 16-Jul-13 10:36:42

Also I would be surprised to find anyone agreeing that using terminology like 'they' and us' when referring to difference skin colours isn't racist. Never met anyone who in real life doesn't bristle at being called 'they' in a lump group referencing their skin colour - black, white or Asian -

Puzzledandpissedoff Tue 16-Jul-13 10:47:45

I'm not so naive to believe that racism doesn't exist

Neither am I - though I don't believe it's as prevalent as some would like to suggest. I also totally agree with you about those who sneer at posts which are, after all, just someone's opinion

Granted we might all hope that people base those opinions on facts rather than hysteria, but I'm especially disturbed by assertions that racism can only be committed by white folk. For me, anyone suggesting that people will behave in a certain way simply on the basis of their skin colour is completely off the map ... but surely we do nobody any favours by suggesting it's all a one way street??

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 16-Jul-13 11:01:38

I don't think racism can just be committed by white people towards black people.

Look at Rwanda. Or even The Holocaust. (Yes, that one isn't the best example but if we say, Nazis and Jews it makes a bit more sense)

Genocides based on the width of someone's nose or religion.

But I do believe racism is running wild in the American government.

An example not using white people vs black people... Look at the American reaction to illegal immigrants. Hysteria over 'wetbacks' taking their jobs.

I just don't believe the system isn't failing minorities. I just can't when these cases keep cropping up. I can't ignore the prisons brimming with minorities.

JaquelineHyde Tue 16-Jul-13 11:02:19

Racism exists in many different forms and I, as a white woman, have experienced racism directed at me from someone of a different race.

My son (mixed race), who was 18 months at the time was racially abused by my white neighbour. We reported it to the police and he was charged and it went to court.

My husband who is black but lighter skinned than a lot of people in his home country, was racially abused by people of the same race as him, because he is lighter skinned.

I hate all racism no matter where it comes from as should everyone, however, some people are cunts and think it is excusable in certain circumstances.

Puzzledandpissedoff Tue 16-Jul-13 11:19:41

I, as a white woman, have experienced racism directed at me from someone of a different race

I know what you mean as I was attacked by a group of asian youths; physically attacked that is, along with a flood of the most filthy racial abuse

Some of my colleagues were also asian, and when I mentioned their claimed respect for women, I was told "ah yes, but that's amongst ourselves - you're white"

Obviously I wasn't impressed about that, but I certainly didn't immediately view all asians as apologists for violence ... I simply noted that those particular ones were

JaquelineHyde Tue 16-Jul-13 12:20:27

Puzzled your attack sounds awful and no one black, white, Asian, female or male should have to go through that.

Sadly it happens every day and not enough people stand up and challenge it.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Tue 16-Jul-13 12:47:57

Puzzled that sounds horrendous.

I am married to a black man and we have two daughters. I have been abused on public transport, I even had one man shouting at me calling my two year old daughter the n word in front of other passengers and I live in a very multi racial part of London.

special is right, I am not saying what Trayvon is alleged to have done is right but who knows how we would react in a similar situation.

The point is Zimmerman's reaction was disproportionate and his actions criminal.

A child who was minding his business is dead and someone should be held accountable for that, George Zimmerman.

AmberLeaf Tue 16-Jul-13 12:56:59

Yes, there appear to be some ghastly, racist white folk about - equally, it seems there are some black folk determined to see offence where none was intended

For example, in response to a suggestion that Trayvon could have responded in a calmer manner, someone implied this involved subservience to the "masser" What the heck's going on in that person's mind??!!!

I said that 'masser' comment.

Firstly I am not black. Im white.

The 'masser' comment was in response to someone [who I think is actually black IIRC] who posted that had Trayvon acted in a polite, subservient way, then he would still be alive.

My post was calling 'bullshit' on that suggestion and the ideology behind it.

AmberLeaf Tue 16-Jul-13 12:59:07

The suggestion that if only black people were subservient/polite to the white people that abuse them, then they wouldn't get hurt/killed is bollocks. It is the same as saying Trayvon derserved to be killed for acting the way he did [which we only have the word of his killer to go on BTW]

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 16-Jul-13 13:01:15

Which is the same as saying 'well, if she hadn't chose to tempt my husband with fishnet and such extreme cleavage....'

AmberLeaf Tue 16-Jul-13 13:18:09

Its victim blaming bollocks, it is also an attempt to deny that there are some people who will abuse people purely because they are black/how they look and what they perceive that to mean.

Puzzledandpissedoff Tue 16-Jul-13 13:50:45

The 'masser' comment was in response to someone [who I think is actually black IIRC] who posted that had Trayvon acted in a polite, subservient way, then he would still be alive

I'm interested in your claim that someone posted the bit I've italicised, when what they actually said is copied and pasted here: "Had he stayed polite and calm and reassured the other person would it would have turned out differently" Something of a misrepresentation, wouldn't you agree?

I also do my best to be calm, polite and reassuring, but I've never felt these ordinary, everyday little politenesses make me in some way subservient ... maybe I've got it wrong and been debasing myself all these years!!

AmberLeaf Tue 16-Jul-13 14:12:59

I knew you wouldn't 'get' it.

I'm interested in your claim that someone posted the bit I've italicised, when what they actually said is copied and pasted here: "Had he stayed polite and calm and reassured the other person would it would have turned out differently" Something of a misrepresentation, wouldn't you agree?

No, I paraphrased, but it means the same thing.

Puzzledandpissedoff Tue 16-Jul-13 14:20:51

I paraphrased, but it means the same thing

In your opinion, perhaps - which naturally you're entitled to, just as we all are. Thing is, of course, that includes those who may not agree with you ...

AmberLeaf Tue 16-Jul-13 14:26:57

I don't care if others agree with me or not though, I really couldn't give a flying fuck TBH.

I know what I know.

As I said, I knew you wouldn't 'get' it, which is ok too.

BeyonceCastle Tue 16-Jul-13 17:07:51

This and the other thread are bloody depressing.

The verdict based on the evidence was the right one.
However I believe that Mr.Zimmerman should have been found guilty of negligent homicide.

The jury must have considered manslaughter at length as their question to the judge was about its definition/terms.
According to reports they still had to find intent to make a conviction.
They could not prove beyond reasonable doubt intent so did not convict. Mr. Zimmerman had passed the voice stress tests regarding whether he had confronted the victim.

I was surprised as I thought manslaughter equated to murder when it was not planned/premeditated. eg vehicular

Negligent homicide if I understand it correctly should have been the indictment. Mr. Zimmerman was ultimately liable for the death and his actions prior to the altercation with Mr. Martin led directly to it: i.e. not remaining in his car to await the arrival of police.

That said, given that he denied causing the confrontation and the voice stress test confirmed this and he was not told outright during his pursuit to stop and go back to his car, there may have been difficulty proving negligence as self-defence during the altercation would have remained the defence.

Third degree felony murder might have got a conviction but the prosecution left it too late to add to the jury instructions.

What will happen now I suspect will be a civil case brought against Mr. Zimmerman by the Martin family and he and his wife will have the book thrown at them regarding the bailbond/fraud trial.

Boomba Tue 16-Jul-13 19:41:09

puzzled its a ludicrous idea that Trayvon should have 'spoken to Zimmerman calmly/politely'

this for me completely highlights the racist attitude. He was a child being followed by a strange man...first by car and then persistently on foot when Trayvon took a pedetrianised route.

There is no way ever than any one of you would advise your children, if you are being followed by a strange man.....go and explain to him politely why you are out in your neighbourhood!!!

Your attitude around this 1 small point right at the beginning of the events, shows that;

1) you think Zimmerman was justified in being suspicious of Trayvon...based on what exactly?

2) Trayvon should expect that his presence would be viewed suspiciously and should know this man wasnt intending to beat/murder/rape/rob him

3) you dont actually view Trayvon as a innocent child in the first place

ChrissieTay Tue 16-Jul-13 20:13:38

Booba - Are you now calling Puzzled a Racist too? hmm

Puzzledandpissedoff Tue 16-Jul-13 20:27:10

Unfortunately, Boomba, very many of your posts suggest to me that you're determined to cry "racist" no matter what the evidence one way or the other; worryingly, it also seems to apply to anyone who disagrees with you in the slightest way

On the other hand, I've already stated my own view that anyone suggesting that people will behave in a certain way simply on the basis of their skin colour is completely off the map (or mad, or dangerous, or whatever word you prefer) I'm really not sure how I can make that any clearer

I'm therefore puzzled by your assertion (stated as fact rather than opinion) that I consider Z's suspicions were justified / Trayvon should expect to be viewed suspiciously / Trayvon wasn't innocent in the first place. I neither said OR implied this, and honestly think it would be better if you avoided deciding what others' views are for them

AmberLeaf Tue 16-Jul-13 20:40:02

I think Boombas post hit the nail on the head.

I think that when people have called racist on this thread it has been in response to...racists/racist posts, not merely because someone disagrees with someone.

Boomba Tue 16-Jul-13 21:23:10

On the other hand, I've already stated my own view that anyone suggesting that people will behave in a certain way simply on the basis of their skin colour is completely off the map (or mad, or dangerous, or whatever word you prefer) I'm really not sure how I can make that any clearer

you can say whatever you like, as many times as you like. But your views on this matter betray you. I believe you dont for a second think you are prejudice; but you just are and its so glaringly obvious

I'm therefore puzzled by your assertion (stated as fact rather than opinion) that I consider Z's suspicions were justified / Trayvon should expect to be viewed suspiciously / Trayvon wasn't innocent in the first place. I neither said OR implied this, and honestly think it would be better if you avoided deciding what others' views are for them

Yes, you did imply it

Boomba Tue 16-Jul-13 21:27:46

Had he stayed polite and calm and reassured the other person would it would have turned out differently

What could possibly make you think that a child who is being followed by a strange man, should politely reassure the man?.....reassured him of what exactly???

if your teenager was being followed home from the shops; the man got out of his car to follow your child....what would you be expecting him to 'reassure' his stalker of??

Boomba Tue 16-Jul-13 21:28:51

and yes expecting a child who is being stalked to be calm and polite and reassuring to their stalker, is pretty subserviant

Chrissie - Are you going to get around to reading that evidence you repeatedly asked for and said you were going to read? I'm interested in your opinion on the popular and academic articles on the racial profiling you said was okay at the beginning of this thread.

Or are you just sticking around to see if you can mess with Boomba people? Is evidence not really what you wanted but just an excuse to mess with, mock people's feelings, and not really care? Because it's kind of hypocritical to shout "where's the evidence..." and say we should base our opinions on the evidence in the trial and then not look at the evidence of the corruption within the judicial system which forms most of the other side's opinions, the corruption obvious in this case when even the head prosecutor is being investigated for her record. The corruption people have been fighting and dying for for generations and continues away from the headlines (as I discussed on the other Trayvon thread).

chocolatespiders Tue 16-Jul-13 22:27:17

The juror who seems to be getting lots of attention said that when they first went into jury room 1 wanted guilty of second degree murder, 2 wanted manslaughter and 3 wanted not guilty. We all know what happened next sad

chocolatespiders Tue 16-Jul-13 22:34:40

Posted on Facebook

By Saturday, investigative reporting has turned up some more new unflattering information about George Zimmerman, the 28 year old neighborhood watchman who shot an unarmed 17 African-American boy which has captured the public headline news the last few days. According to his former co-workers, Zimmerman was fired from a security job providing security for house parties after he grabbed an intoxicated young woman and threw her. According to at least one of these co-workers, Zimmerman also had a "Jekyll and Hyde" personality, where he could be entirely decent one moment, but prone to violence the next.

Even more damning was the report that Zimmerman actually had three separate prior arrests, but these arrests were sealed by the courts. It also turns out that Zimmerman's father, Frank Zimmerman, was a retired Orange County magistrate judge, which brings up the question whether he used his influence somehow to get these arrest records sealed. If these arrest records weren't sealed, then it might have kept Zimmerman from acquiring a gun by passing a background check.

Further damning evidence against Zimmerman was a videotape acquired by CBS of Zimmerman at a police station in handcuffs after the shooting where he showed no evidence of being assaulted by Trayvon Martin. There didn't appear to be any injury to the back of the head, cut lip or broken nose that Zimmerman and his defenders had claimed. Further, a mortician didn't find any evidence that Trayvon Martin had been in a fight when he was preparing his body, only the fatal bullet wound to his chest. All of this strongly suggests that Zimmerman has lied about his account of the events.

Former co-workers of Zimmerman before he was fired from his security job claimed that Zimmerman liked power over people and enjoyed ordering people around. He like to play cop was the bottom line. But, his history of unacceptable violent incidents got him fired from that security job.

More and more the image of some screwball who liked guns and wanted to play a cop is emerging. But, it appears that Zimmerman lacked both the self control and possibly even the mental health to be in possession of a gun. Zimmerman was told not to follow Trayvon Martin by a 911 operator, and certainly not to leave his SUV and pursue someone he only thought was potentially suspicious. Apparently, Zimmerman had no reason to believe that Martin had committed any crime, but instead didn't recognize him as a neighborhood youth.

Even former Florida Governor Jeb Bush, the brother of the former president, George W. Bush, has publicly claimed that when he signed Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, meant just that. To "stand your ground", and not to "pursue" and shoot someone.

Smart money would suggest that Zimmerman probably gets charged by a prosecutor at some point after an investigation. Further, it was highly unusual for Zimmerman to hire a lawyer right after the incident if he was a crime victim who was assaulted by Martin. Zimmerman also quickly lined up family and friends of his to publicly claim that his account of the incident was the true story. But, physical and circumstantial evidence is quickly calling into question Zimmerman's account of the fatal shooting incident.

Voice experts now confirm that without question it was Trayvon Martin crying for help on the 911 call, and not Zimmerman moments before he was shot to death. Trayvon Martin may also have been suspended from school for having a trace of marijuana in an empty baggie, but otherwise he had no public history of arrests or violence to suggest that he was the aggressor in this incident.

Some civil rights leaders sought to make this incident into a racial incident, however George Zimmerman is the mother of a Hispanic woman, and has at least one African-American close friend who rushed to publicly defend him, strongly suggesting that this incident had little to do with race, but rather was the unfortunate act of someone who lacked good judgement and was unfit to own a gun.

Filmmaker Spike Lee had to apologize for giving out the home address of George Zimmerman in a Tweet as he seemed to be attempting to set Zimmerman up for violence. And some Websites have run pictures of Zimmerman with a gun target painted over him. The Black Panthers offered some sort of bounty to bring him to justice. But, none of this nonsense was very helpful, and only helped to complicate the effort to search for the truth in this case. Legal incidents need to addressed through the legal system, and not through the court of public opinion or emotion.

But Trayon Martins The Bad Guy Huh Or This Wanna Be Thug As You Been Saying Please !!!

Puzzledandpissedoff Tue 16-Jul-13 22:49:09

Well, you appear to have made your mind up, Boomba. If you knew the least thing about me or some of the issues I've been involved in, you'd realise how mistaken your remarks are - or perhaps not, since you've made it clear that you know best and the only acceptable interpretation is your own

Concerning that "had he stayed polite and calm" post which you hurled at me: I asked Amberleaf about a misquote, but the original comment was from someone else, as you'd have realised if you'd read it correctly instead of leaping to conclusions

Not to worry, though - since you don't appear interested in rational discussion, I'll leave you to stamp and carry on in peace :-)

Boomba Tue 16-Jul-13 22:57:53

convenient way of dodging the questions i asked you about how you think a child should be 'reassuring' a man who is stalking him

Im all up for reasonable discussion...you seem un-prepared to explore whatever it is that makes you think this?

Boomba Tue 16-Jul-13 23:01:30

it doesnt matter who you are, where you've been, the 'issues you have been involved in', who your best friend is, or your husband, mother, children.....everyone is capable of prejudice

not many people will consider it. Because it isnt comfortable

ChrissieTay Tue 16-Jul-13 23:24:09

LittleSporks I haven't had time, as I've been looking after my two toddlers and my severly brain damaged husband, so no, I have not!

BlingBang Tue 16-Jul-13 23:29:14

Do you know how scary it is to be followed and not know how much danger you might be facing? Thought I was followed once by a guy down a quiet lane. He took the same right turn as me and was catching me up. my heart was pounding. Rather than be jumped from behind I stopped and faced the guy but pretended I was looking beyond him. Was ready to leap on him even though I knew he would be stronger. Luckily he walked by, was probably just his way home. You have no idea what this boy was thinking, being calm and polite probably was the last thing on his mind if he felt in danger.

ChrissieTay Tue 16-Jul-13 23:31:41

Boomba you seem to portray a self-superiority over people who merely disagree with you? hmm How do you assume that people who are prejudice aren't particularly comfortable with it? I've worked in environments, predominantly male, where believe me there has not been any political correctness or 'uncomfortable' vibes - they've just come out and said what they think! I may not agree, but I'm also not about to be the one to come over all high and mighty and make formal complaints to HR about it either!

Boomba Tue 16-Jul-13 23:49:55

of course there are people who are totally comfortable with their prejudices

and then there are people who dont even realise they hold misconceptions...and they arent comfortable about exploring that at all

whether i come over as having a superiority complex is neither here nor there. pretty irrelevant to the discussion

You and puzzled, both have expressed that Trayvon should have approached Zimmerman and reassured him etc etc. This is a ridiculous POV which can only come from an underlying belief .....as i said in earlier post

Both you and puzzled are all indignant and asserting repeatedly that you are not racist and use ad hominem attacks to undermine what i am saying

Neither of you have expalined how you think a child should be reassuring a man that is following him

Boomba Tue 16-Jul-13 23:53:29

ive just posted this question on the other thread...for what purpose do you think people look for racism where it doesnt exist? Why do you think people 'look to be offended'? to what end?

Not complaining, Chrissie, is why things don't change. Silence never helps the victims, only the oppressors, silence is confirmation that there is nothing wrong with what they're saying and doing or that they have so much power that it doesn't matter whether or not it hurts, their power makes it right anyways. Things only change when they are challenged. It's not high and mighty, it's preventing the harm of others. I wouldn't want my family treated like that, I don't want anyone treated like that, the systems that allow such things should be challenged or they be will treated like that over and over. Many people would love to go a day without someone hurting them, but our systems are built to ignore and dismiss them.

I can assure you that most of the links don't take 5 minutes, some not even 2, and the longer academic articles are summed up pretty well by the shorter popular one and their abstracts if you want to skip the long bits. When I use links, most of the things I specifically chose to fit into the busy lives that everyone on MN has, particularly to ensure there is plenty of evidence for those who show themselves to view that that the top priority in a discussion which should be respected.

I'm aware that time is limited and everyone has their priorities so information too often needs to be brief and to the point. Really, I don't have time or energy for many long reads with working from home, looking after my four children, two I home educate as the other two are too little, caring for my partner with multiple disabilities including spinal and brain damage which, as you know, ends up affecting everything and seems always a new complication arising, my chosen activist pursuits and writing ridiculously long posts full of information and links to answer people's questions in the areas I've studied and worked in so other people don't have to take the time to wade through the internet crap and find it themselves because I know the current systems that are meant to educate and inform us are not fit for purpose other than maintaining the system as is. Everyone is busy, I don't think anyone writes here to portray superiority, just a strong passion which overcomes the sense of doing more urgent or important things which we should be busy with instead like sleeping .

BeyonceCastle Wed 17-Jul-13 01:28:25

A child should not need to reassure a man following him or her.
I have told my daughter she should never confront a would-be aggressor, rapist, flasher etc in any circumstances - any of my children should run as far and as fast as they can.
If they cannot get home/somewhere safe then they solicit help from the nearest passer-by or public building.
If they have a mobile phone they call the police.

If none of that works and the would-be aggressor catches them up then they make as much noise as possible and if the stranger threatens them physically they do whatever it takes to get free - eyeballs, genitals etc

The best response is flight. The typical response may well be freeze. The emergency response is fight.

In this case it all comes down to who confronted who why and how. Which none of us will ever know as we weren't there. Hence the reasonable doubt.

As I said before third degree felony murder might have got a conviction but the prosecution ballsed up on that one.

As for the question as to why people look to be offended or look for any kind of -ism where it doesn't exist - some people - not most, not many, not all just some -

A) may well have a preconceived idea of others' actions or perceived motives borne from their own personal experience ie if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck mentality.

B) Others may have their own agenda - personal or political - so anything which can be used to implement that will be.

C) Finally some people need to find others to blame for every given situation instead of looking inwards.

So - as an example - a bloke serving me at the supermarket calls me 'love' - I can think he is a chauvinist or I can take it at face value

A) if past experiences with patronising leery fellas leave me cynical then I will see chauvinism. If a sweet old man my grandfather's age said the same endearment my response might be different.

but when the lass at the next counter says the same thing -
B) is she a misogynist too or just being friendly? Should I accept being called 'love' at all?

C) Another example: I do not get a promotion at work - it goes to my equally capable asian colleague. Can I accept they did a better interview than me or do I spout on about positive discrimination and say it's not faiiirrrrr in a whiny Alanis Morrisette stylee?

People are people are people. Some are twats. Many are not.

Thread hijack - cannot remember who asked but you can get these dolls at IKEA my DD wanted all three i hated them all cos they were eight quid each www.ikea.com/gb/en/search/?query=doll

Wuldric Wed 17-Jul-13 01:59:24

We all worry, and rightly, about the Islamic states. The way in which they don't allow women education, the right to vote, the right even to drive. But there is a more insidious enemy. The enemy that is our ally, with whom we share a common language. Have you ever visited the Bible belt in the US? I have. They are all racist and sexist and bonkers. I spent a month in Bentonville. I can only report that the inhabitants are mad. Seriously and dangerously mad. I could buy a hand gun, and a rifle more readily than a glass of wine. I won't even tell you about my time in Atlanta where apartheid is doing pretty well thank you. Women are for breeding and shutting up. Black people are bell hops.

When we in the UK go to the US, we generally go to the West Coast and the East Coast (Florida) and New York. Occasionally we get to New England. And we think how cool it is. Who remembers Cheers and Friends and Sex in the City? Yeah right. Four states outta how many? The US is a worrying place.

TabithaStephens Wed 17-Jul-13 05:52:41

I've been to Atlanta. There are plenty of succesful black people there, it's a black majority city. Of course black people are also bell hops and in lower skilled professions as well.

JaquelineHyde Wed 17-Jul-13 08:26:21

A fantastic social experiment about racial profiling.

Here

I don't think anyone can watch this and argue against what it clearly shows.

Puzzledandpissedoff Wed 17-Jul-13 11:23:11

You and puzzled both have expressed that Trayvon should have approached Zimmerman and reassured him etc etc

I can't really be bothered with what your motivation might be in repeating something already shown to be inaccurate - see my reply on Tue 16-Jul-13 22:49:09 I expressed neither agreement nor disagreement to the comment, and I'm certainly not going to address it for someone who's repeatedly misrepresented me and decided what my views are on my behalf

When you feel able to express yourself rationally - on the basis of facts and preferably without resorting to obscenities - I'll be happy to discuss this with you further. Until that time, I'm afraid I have nothing further to say to you

JaquelineHyde Wed 17-Jul-13 11:26:50

Puzzled can I ask what your opinion is on the Zimmerman trial and on the more wider issue of racism in general as I am a little confused as to what your viewpoint is.

Puzzledandpissedoff Wed 17-Jul-13 11:51:05

In this case it all comes down to who confronted who why and how. Which none of us will ever know as we weren't there. Hence the reasonable doubt

Probably, in my view, one of the most sensible remarks made about the trial ... Jacqueline, I guess that explains my opinion?

The issue of racism is a huge subject, but my personal view is that there can and should be no reason at all to make assumptions about anyone on the basis of their skin colour, nationality or any other race-related indicator. I fully accept that racism exists and believe it should always be challenged; however I also believe that a few choose to see offence where none exists or is meant, and that actually such folk do a massive disservice to the issue in general

Hope that makes sense??

JaquelineHyde Wed 17-Jul-13 13:33:47

Thank you for clarifying that puzzled.

I think that beyond reasonable doubt it could be proved that Zimmerman was the confronter in this situation.

Not beyond all doubt, because as you say only 2 people know that. One is dead and the other one is the killer.

But I think it is very easy to argue beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman confronted Martin.

Zimmerman stalked a young boy, who then ran away from Zimmerman, yes he did initially run away into a pedestrian area. Zimmerman then left the vehicle he had been pursuing him in and chased after him. Zimmerman was advised that he was not required to do that, but still he was determine to pursue this young boy. A few minutes later the young boy was dead. I think based on that undisputed evidence it is clear that Zimmerman was the aggressor and therefore it is fair to believe beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman confronted Martin.

This is why I disagree with the verdict and believe Zimmerman is guilty.

On the issue of racism, I agree that unfortunately there are some people who see racism where there is none. This is without doubt harmful to the fight against racism, however, people who allow racism to go on unchallenged cause far more damage than those who cry wolf, and sadly there are far, far more people who just ignore racism because it doesn't effect them directly and this makes me very angry because they may as well just say they agree with it.

And you are right racism is a huge subject and very complex, however, I think the Zimmerman case was pretty damn straight forward. He racially profiled Martin. Racial profiling is a form of racism. Nobody is seeing racism where it doesn't exist.

Boomba Wed 17-Jul-13 13:35:27

jacqeuline that link is excellent...that is exactly what has happened in the Trayvon case. Exactly the racism that people are denying exists

Puzzledandpissedoff Wed 17-Jul-13 14:34:25

Thank you for clarifying that puzzled

You're more than welcome :-)

FWIW I'm largely with you on the rest of your post, and hope you won't mind me saying I really admire your clarity about what's known fact and what's opinion; that's not always been the case on here

For me, it's absolutely vital when challenging genuine racism to remember that every community has its share of dangerous idiots; to suggest that an entire community are at fault for the actions of a few maniacs just breeds more resentment and actually hinders progress by clouding the issue

AmberLeaf Wed 17-Jul-13 16:40:50

No one is suggesting that an entire community are at fault for the actions of a few maniacs.

What I think a lot of people struggle to grasp is that they may be racist/buying into racist ideologies without even realising it.

As someone else has said either on this thread or the other one, it is very uncomfortable for some people to accept that they are doing this, or how much their own thinking is influenced by racist ideologies.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Wed 17-Jul-13 22:53:36

What I think a lot of people struggle to grasp is that they may be racist/buying into racist ideologies without even realising it.

Exactly. The most dangerous racism is the subconscious kind.

ChrissieTay Thu 18-Jul-13 08:01:15

SpecialAgent - Are you a Psychologist / Paychoanalyst??!

JaquelineHyde Thu 18-Jul-13 08:21:16

Chrissie what exactly has that got to do with it? Or are you just once again trying to pick an argument with individuals instead of actually engaging in the bigger discussion.

JaquelineHyde Thu 18-Jul-13 08:22:37

Actually don't bother replying to my post as I'm sure you won't be able to manage it without having a personal dig at me and I really don't want to get dragged into such pettiness.

ChrissieTay Thu 18-Jul-13 09:39:13

Because I think it's quite pathetic really that a lot of you are psyco-analysing people, whom you don't know, or in fact know what their beliefs are, merely because they hold different opinions! I don't know how many times I need to state this. The 'pettiness' lies with the posters who cannot accept that others hold alternative views. No, I am not being dismissive or in fact 'laughing' at this tragedy as somebody else said, I was in fact 'laughing' at the pathetic and potty mouther replies from some of you who clearly seem to be letting other posters get to you.

ChrissieTay Thu 18-Jul-13 09:40:15

*mothed, not *mouther ! Bl**dy iPhone confused

ChrissieTay Thu 18-Jul-13 09:40:48

Aaarrrrrrghhhhhh ... !! MOUTHED ! Sorry, typing too quick on this thing!

ChrissieTay Thu 18-Jul-13 09:47:06

What I did watch the other night was the Piers Morgan interview w Rachel Jeantel and felt a lot of admiration for her, and I think she proved herself a little more than what she did when in court...However, she was adament that she didn't want any further media part as a mark of respect for her friend Trayvon, and then I see all over Twitter she has now made several further TV appearances and has labelled herself 'famous' - I am genuinely disappointed now, as I'd really warmed to her hmm

TexasTracy Thu 18-Jul-13 12:47:10

As a long-term resident of both the UK and US I know there is a disparity in the two countries about gun rights/ gun use/ gun control.

George Zimmerman is in many ways an example of why citizens should not occupy vigilante positions: he was a man 'on a mission', did not comply to official instruction, and he was unable to handle the situation or his weapon- why not shoot the young man in the foot or some non-fatal injury, as would be expected of a law enforcement officer trying to respond in self-defense?

The truths of the case have now been obscured, but the facts are that a child, by US standards, was killed. A child who legally should have been arrested, questionned and either charged or released. And his assailant has shown no responsibility in the cause of his death- something else which should be expected.

'Nearly 800 children under 14 were killed in gun accidents from 1999 to 2010, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Nearly one in five injury-related deaths in children and adolescents involve firearms.'

Guns are a fact of life in the US, but people are not securing or using them responsibly.

cory Thu 18-Jul-13 12:55:40

"Had he stayed polite and calm and reassured the other person would it would have turned out differently"

This advice seriously scares me. My 13yo was stalked by a man in a car a few weeks ago. He assumed- as one hopes any child would- that this was a would-be mugger or rapist, somebody intent on harming him, and that he had to get away. Fortunately he was able to do this by running up a side street. If not, if he had been cornered, of course he would have tried to fight his way out. Not turned round to reason politely and reassure the man.

If I had posted on MN about this incident, I would be very surprised if a single poster had piped up with "next time you must teach your ds to turn round and reassure the man politely".

I have no doubt that ds was right in his assumptions about this man. They were not assumptions he could afford to ignore under the circumstances. So why should you expect another teen to ignore them and say "Oh I am sure he only needs reassuring", just because his skin happened to be black? Are black teens immune to rape and mugging?

I find it worrying that when it comes to a white child, people's thoughts immediately spring to vulnerability and the threat other people might pose to them. And when it comes to a black child, a good many people immediately think of the threat they might pose, or be perceived as posing, to other people.

crescentmoon Thu 18-Jul-13 14:01:31

heres an ABC news experiment on racial profiling - you will be absolutely shocked at the reactions of passerby's to these bike thieves.

www.upworthy.com/know-anyone-that-thinks-racial-profiling-is-exaggerated-watch-this-and-tell-me-when-your-jaw-drops-2?g=4&c=gd1

"George Zimmerman is in many ways an example of why citizens should not occupy vigilante positions:"

i cant imagine what a George Zimmerman style vigilante would have done in this video had he been armed.

Puzzledandpissedoff Thu 18-Jul-13 14:18:47

In these thirteen pages, there have been endless remarks along the lines that "this was a racist killing," "he was killed because he was black" and much more in the same vein

I imagine most people would agree that racism certainly exists, that it's a pretty emotive subject and that the systems for dealing with it aren't perfect. Many may also agree that Zimmerman seems unsavoury, perhaps shouldn't have been in neighbourhood watch and that he may have been only too pleased to have somebody (anybody!!) to confront

But what I want to ask is this: Can anyone offer any proof that the actual killing was motivated by racism? I appreciate that some may sincerely believe this, and of course they're entitled to their opinion, but what I'm asking about is real evidence - not commentary on society's many undoubted problems, but actual proof that in this particular case, the young lad was killed because of the colour of his skin

I'd honestly be interested to know ...

crescentmoon Thu 18-Jul-13 14:38:51

George Zimmerman’s Old MySpace Surfaces: Full of Racist Statements and Admissions of Criminal Activity!....

www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/01/2778234/myspace-page-is-latest-salvo-in.html

"This one is a 7-year old Myspace page called “only to be king again” that makes disparaging comments about Mexicans. The Web page, which his attorney confirmed Tuesday is legitimate, makes reference to 2005 criminal cases and a brush in court with a woman who Zimmerman called his “ex-hoe.”
"O’Mara said he ordered his client to wipe his Internet presence clean. Zimmerman took down his website, a Twitter account and any other social media accounts. Any remaining, O’Mara said, were fakes."

politicalblindspot.com/george-zimmermans-old-myspace-surfaces-full-of-racist-statements-and-admissions-of-criminal-activity/?fb_source=pubv1

Boomba Thu 18-Jul-13 14:58:33

I find it worrying that when it comes to a white child, people's thoughts immediately spring to vulnerability and the threat other people might pose to them. And when it comes to a black child, a good many people immediately think of the threat they might pose, or be perceived as posing, to other people

THIS^^ from cory

AND

What I think a lot of people struggle to grasp is that they may be racist/buying into racist ideologies without even realising it

THIS^^ from Amberleaf

I've posted several links on this and the other thread which included that Zimmerman called the police over 40 times while in that neighbourhood, repeatedly for "suspicious people", all of whom were Black. When discussing burglaries with the police, he repeatedly blamed Black people and Black people alone. The guy obviously has a problem with Black people. He has problems with lots of other people as well (molestation charges o a child, was kicked off of a criminal justice course for being a danger to the community, restraining order from a previous partner, and so on - unsavoury is putting it very mildly), but in this neighbourhood, he repeatedly showed through his interaction with the police that he has an issue with Black people being in his gated community. One of the main points of his defense is that he was right to be suspicious and scared of a young black man walking through his neighborhood. That as a defense is racism itself.

Also, myself and many people in wider protests aren't arguing about mainly Zimmerman's racism. It's the racism that has been around this entire case that we are protesting. The fact this trial has been about Trayvon's worthiness rather than Zimmerman's actions from the beginning. He's repeated called a thug and blamed for his death for actions that [http://seetobe.tumblr.com/post/55772548984/unapologetically-black others would call "being a teenager"]] and White celebrity teens have people defending them and called normal for the exact same thing. People put up false photos of Black men who look nothing like him to try to rile up more hate on what a thug and danger he was. Zimmerman said that Trayvon caused his alarm by both walking too fast and too slow (what rate should a young man walk to avoid being suspiscious?) . There is nothing Trayvon could have done right in this situation. Zimmerman followed him four minutes. In car and by foot when Trayvon went down a pedestrian path to get rid of him. No one, not even the defense, said Zimmerman was following him out of kindness. The prosecution never argued that Zimmerman should have not seen him as a threat for even a moment (just that Trayvon wasn't enough of a threat to kill). The prosecution openly mocks it's own witness that it chose to not prepare, never mentioning that her speech was down to a medical condition and actively contributed to people thinking she was just uneducated (regardless that she's doing very well in school and speaks 3 languages, English being her 3rd). People still tear both of them apart, never seeing them as having the the same feelings and humanity. Never in the case or the mass media was Trayvon's feeling considered relevant, only Zimmerman's feelings of fear or hate are debated. Not the feelings of a 17 year old who only wanted to get home.

The entire case was built on racism, both defense and prosecution (though the latter at least is being investigated for it). The entire legal system is built on it, most systems are built upon the structures of oppression and the maintaining of the current power structures. For some this is daily life, it is a blessing to be able to ignore it and need to find proof.

Puzzledandpissedoff Thu 18-Jul-13 15:24:04

Now that's interesting, LittleSporks. As I said, I'm concentrating here on the incident itself and actual proof, but on that subject the bit about "When discussing burglaries with the police, he repeatedly blamed Black people and Black people alone" seems very relevant

Please could you send me a link/reference to identify how that came to be known?

Because he called the police, repeatedly, as "a representative of the neighbourhood watch", and they were released by the police to the media (the judge dismissed these records). There are a lot of articles but few have all of them together if that makes sense. This one was shortly after the first police release, weeks after the shooting but there are many more out there (police were very drip feed about it), I think there is a record of all the calls out there, I linked to other ones in some of my posts on this and the other thread I believe.

Boomba Thu 18-Jul-13 15:55:37

there was a lot of information, wasnt there sporks, when it happened; which is why it is so unfathomable that he got away with it. Why was this information not taken into consideration at the trial? confused

The judge dismissed the records, except for the call about Trayvon itself, if I recall correctly. She dismissed a lot, along with the prosecution just being abysmal in it's own right practically handing the case over. Using the system to creating the desired result, no need for justice and truth and equality. Just the results and jokes (defense opening with jokes at a murder trial, still have a bad taste at that).

Puzzledandpissedoff Thu 18-Jul-13 16:12:10

Thanks for that link, LittleSporks, and yes I can quite see that the phone records would be scattered about. I also see that most of the call-ins appear to have been about black lads, though I haven't yet read that he made a big deal of their race, as he didn't with Trevayon according to the records

I suppose what we need to know is whether there's any evidence that he saw white lads acting suspiciously and failed to call those in. Obviously that really would show bias, so do we know if there's any such evidence?

BeyonceCastle Thu 18-Jul-13 16:52:28

interesting blog with interesting photos.
fwiw i see Miley as a woman now not a minor and nor do i see Justin as a teen either.
nor do i think of either of them 'going through a phase' but that's another thread.

it's a difficult one because whilst i don't believe for a second that white victims' families would be having to defend themselves against slurs on their children's reputations, as the Martins have had to with the speculation on and defamation of Trayvon, I do believe however that white victims who were 'appropriating black culture' * would be treated in the same way.

Whether that is because where I am from the police suffer from institutionalised racism (eg driving while black) or whether it is borne out from prejudice against hoodies and teenagers per se I do not know.
What I do know is white girls with bling,tats etc are often deemed by media to be chavs and white boys with hoodies,grills,bling etc are deemed to be 'wangstas'.

there is prejudice against street culture/rapper culture full stop due to
the majority of contemporary rappers being affiliated at least lyrically with guns, gangs, drugs, misogyny, homohobia, materialism and violence.**

*(bloggers' phrase not mine as I do not think flicking the vs, ganja or wearing a grill or hoodie as defining black culture helps with people's perceptions...because the former are often appropriated by hiphop/gangstas this helps perpetuate the myth: hoodies=gangsta=street crime)

**of course we could discuss the relative merits of biggie smalls vs will smith or eminem vs macklemore but that's a whole other thread....

AmberLeaf Thu 18-Jul-13 17:10:57

How could there be any such 'evidence' if he never called them in?

Because I think it's quite pathetic really that a lot of you are psyco-analysing people, whom you don't know, or in fact know what their beliefs are, merely because they hold different opinions! I don't know how many times I need to state this. The 'pettiness' lies with the posters who cannot accept that others hold alternative views

The opinions are a reflection of their beliefs. It really is that clear. Psychoanalytical skills are not needed.

I find it worrying that when it comes to a white child, people's thoughts immediately spring to vulnerability and the threat other people might pose to them. And when it comes to a black child, a good many people immediately think of the threat they might pose, or be perceived as posing, to other people

That is a brilliant example of subconscious racism.

Puzzledandpissedoff Thu 18-Jul-13 17:54:09

How could there be any such 'evidence' if he never called them in?

Quite easily, for the scenario I mentioned. A householder could have mentioned to him a dubious-looking white person they'd seen hanging around, then wanted to know what he'd done about it. This happens to NW people all the time - I know, I've been one - and any reluctance to report purely on the grounds of race would become obvious very quickly

Anyway, to return to my original point, I'm still looking for actual proof that Trevayon was killed because he was black. Since this has been clearly stated as a fact rather than an opinion, I assume it can be substantiated?

AmberLeaf Thu 18-Jul-13 17:56:10

Fucking hell, have you been reading peoples posts? and the brilliant links Sporks has provided?

Yes, there is evidence, the entire phone call records have been released. From what I've read, those were his main complaints, most of the rest were inanimate objects out of place (garage doors not down was a big one I recall - Housing association, neighbourhood watch, vigilante all in one).

The information is all out there, I've given enough links on it both on this thread and the other thread and -- and I think I've given anyone really interested in finding the evidence a good enough head start. I enjoy helping people find information, not spoonfeeding people. I've been working in this area long enough to know that calls for evidence are used just as often to antagonise people as it is for actual interest. For some there is never enough evidence to prove an individual act was down to thinking based on a system of power and oppression, always another small detail that needs more. That that is actually the standard in our societies, racism is the default our societies are built, we should need evidence that it wasn't. But that's the system - always give the benefit of the doubt to the oppressors, can't have those systems being challenged or that benefit ever going to oppressors and victims of the systems. Might actually make some progress.

As I've said dozens of time, and I'll say it again, I don't care if he killed him out of hate or fear, the defense that he was right to be fearful of and follow a young black man for being a young black man in a gated community and that is a racist defense. I'm not sure why I need more evidence when he's said it from day one, his defense said it through the trial, and afterwards calls the killing of Trayvon was God's Plan and he would do no different. Seriously, if you see your milkshake had at least 10% crap in it, it would be an obvious problem, you don't go checking the rest to make sure it's equally crappy. I'm done giving information one way that avoids that point.

BCastle: Cyrus is now, but the stuff in the pictures she was doing when she was 17 (noticeable as she looks quite different now) as was Bieber (not as noticeable, but it's only two years ago for him) and everyone defended it as "normal teen stuff". Trayvon did the exact same thing, and he's treated like thug, treated like he deserved to die for doing what those celebs did at the same age and were defended for.

And, just to clear up that blog, it isn't the Vs or grills or hoodie's that are cultural appropriation but their music itself. Bieber and Cyrus's fortunes are based on music originated by Black artists that were cleaned up and now sold by White artists to the mainstream and everyone praises them and ignores where it comes. Macklemore is a another fantastic example - everyone calls him a great artist, calling his the first hip-hop artists to bring up gay rights and equality completely ignoring the LGBT Black hiphop artists's experiences and work for decades, even Kanye (performing in a skirt) and so many others have been challenging the binary and things for years, totally ignored by the mainstream until a White face comes along then are treated like they never existed. No, they praise the guy who thought he was gay in third grade because he could draw (while using horrible slurs in his music, but it's fine, he's an ally hmm ) when there are actual experiences in hip-hop from LGBT perspective around for years because he's got the right face and it feeds into this idea what White people are so much more progressive and the Black community is homophobic (see the California same-sex marriage debate when even people like Wil Wheaton were blaming the Black community on its failure). The grills, the hoodies, that's just veneer, something else that originated in Black communities that are only okay and "normal" on White people but promote crime and gang culture in the Black community.

It's all the same thing - the systems (media) gets the results it wants by promoting what it thinks it's best and trying to erase the rest. Elvis's moves and style came from Black artists, but they've faded for most into obscurity while he'd taken their fame. It's all a part of the systems where racism is the standard.

Boomba Thu 18-Jul-13 18:44:37

I suppose what we need to know is whether there's any evidence that he saw white lads acting suspiciously and failed to call those in. Obviously that really would show bias, so do we know if there's any such evidence

Yes, there is a 3 page list of the names of white teenagers that have loitered in the gated community over the last year, that Zimmerman saw and didnt think were suspicious and didnt phone the police about

Boomba Thu 18-Jul-13 18:46:26

that is the joy of racism...so hard to prove beyond doubt huh

Boomba Thu 18-Jul-13 18:54:47

the majority of contemporary rappers being affiliated at least lyrically with guns, gangs, drugs, misogyny, homohobia, materialism and violence

this is bollocks BTW. I acknowledge you said it is quoted from a blog, but the majority of contemporary rappers dissociate from guns/gangs/misogyny etc

WHILST mainstream pop music is generally escalating it

Puzzledandpissedoff Thu 18-Jul-13 19:19:57

Since this has been clearly stated as a fact rather than an opinion, I assume it can be substantiated?

I enjoy helping people find information, not spoonfeeding people. I've been working in this area long enough to know that calls for evidence are used just as often to antagonise people as it is for actual interest

I'll take that as a "no," then ...

Interesting to read that even asking for proof is now wrong, and is just a another symptom of "the racist system" The pity of it, for me, is that your heart's probably in the right place and like many of us you do honestly want to see racism stamped out - but these wild generalisations simply destroy any credibility you might have had among sensible people

Tired of all the rants and obscenities, I shall bow out now

JaquelineHyde Thu 18-Jul-13 21:48:55

Zimmerman racially profiled Martin.

Racial profiling is a form of racism

On this occasion it led to the death of a young innocent boy.

So although this may not be a kkk type of racist attack, it is clear that an act of racism was the catalyst for Martin's death.

None of this would have happened if Zimmerman hadn't assumed because Martin was black he must be up to no good.

ChrissieTay Thu 18-Jul-13 22:17:28

Jacqueline - You say 'racially profiled', therefore when he was ASKED for Martin's colour / race, what did you want him to do, lie?? I don't get it?! I'm not tryna be funny now either, I genuinely don't get why some posters have an issue with the fact Zimmerman merely answered the operators question ? ? ?

BeyonceCastle Thu 18-Jul-13 22:31:35

Puzzled

LSBSpork links led me to this one www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html
which does make it clear that the majority of his 'suspects' were black.
I totted them up:

Out of 46 calls over an 8 year period

alarms 2
black 'suspects' 6
dogs 4
hispanic 'suspects' 1
noise 4
open door 6
other 5
personal 4
pothole 2
vehicles 8
white 1 (same call as hispanic)
woman 1

= 43 calls, the other 3 were re same suspect or incident

although the onus had been placed by media on months rather than years it is clear that he had been suspicious of black people irrespective of attire in the preceding months.

BeyonceCastle Thu 18-Jul-13 22:34:16

Which also puts paid to me thinking he was just anti-hoody or anti-teen as two so-called suspects were black males in their 20s 30s and one was a black child 7-9 years.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Thu 18-Jul-13 22:36:47

The irony of Zimmerman's family being fretful over vigilante action... hmm

I really can't get over that part. (Obviously I don't want anyone to run at him with an axe or anything, but seriously, what an insensitive and ill-thought out comment to make)

JaquelineHyde Thu 18-Jul-13 22:38:53

Answering a question when asked is not racial profiling.

Zimmerman decided that Martin was up to no good purely because he was black. At the trial the defence team had one of the neighbours state very clearly that she had been broken into by a black youth. They used this to try and prove that Zimmerman had a good reason to be suspicious of Martin (he's black, he's a youth, he's guilty!). However, all it actually does is prove that Zimmerman stalked Martin and called the police to report Martin for suspicious behaviour based on nothing other than the fact he was black. This is racial profiling.

The racial profiling obviously happened before Zimmerman called the police but was clearly the catalyst for the whole devastating situation.

ChrissieTay Thu 18-Jul-13 22:44:48

Again, I'm really not tryna be funny or obnoxious here, but maybe all of the previous crimes Z had encountered were carried out by black males and therefore in this case you would expect him to be over-cautious...

JaquelineHyde Thu 18-Jul-13 22:55:34

Chrissie that is exactly what racial profiling is.

Definition -

ra·cial pro·fil·ing

Noun

The practice of substituting skin colour for evidence as grounds for suspicion.

BeyonceCastle Thu 18-Jul-13 23:35:29

Regarding rap culture LSBSpork I had not heard of 'Homo hop' (not my phrase) BUT I am glad it exists and am glad to be educated smile
I agree that many music genres stem from black music originally but feel sad that music is seen to be 'stolen' without credit rather than evolving with credit to its roots.
Elvis's Hound dog btw was written by two white jewish men as it happens but that's by the by, I take your point.
Macklemore incidentally uses the word 'faggot' in a critique of that kind of lazy homophobic lyric

Call each other f*ggots behind the keys of a message board
A word rooted in hate, yet our genre still ignores it

He also has a song all about his 'white privilege'

The face of hip hop has changed a lot since Eminem
And if he’s taking away black artists’ profits I look just like him
Claimed a culture that wasn’t mine

The guy is a talented rapper nonetheless and I think that anyone thinking he shouldn't rap because of his skin colour or talk about homophobia because he's straight are also guilty of prejudice.
It is a shame he is a pin-up boy for highlighting issues like homophobia, consumerism and drugs when, as you say, there are others out there who haven't had his success yet or who are underground but that doesn't mean he lacks credibility.

As for my understanding of the blog I do not disagree that many many teens (I used to teach lots of them, all creeds and cultures in inner-city schools) often in a bid to be cool smoke, flick me! the vs and wear popular branded clothes and sneakers and this is normal...but I don't concede that these 'veneers' are only judged when black teenagers do/wear them. If the blog referred to appropriating music and the discrepancy between reactions to white teen idols' images/musical output and black artists' equivalents then it isn't clear.

Case in point - conservatives got arsey when Miley went all racy in a bid to rid herself of the Disney label. What kind of role model etc
Equally arsey when Rihanna went on about S+M. What kind of role model etc You get Won't somebody think of the children? all the time.
Judging people on appearance especially women is what certain media thrive on.

As to equating gangsta rap with gun culture that was me boomba not a blogger and although I stand by it I probably should not have used the word 'contemporary' considering i am an old bint as I am aware that most rappers now have moved on from their debut lyrics and as you say, distance themselves from gang culture now.
I was struggling to think of a contemporary rap artist who didn't have any of the aforementioned (guns, drugs, hoes etc) somewhere in their body of work even if it was earlier. Closest I could get to was Dizzee Rascal or Nas and even they have some.

Please educate me as to why this is bollocks (not a challenge, merely curious - as I say I like to be enlightened and love hearing new stuff)
so examples of contemporary rappers who have moved away from such lyrics and do not write problematic lyrics would be welcome.
Also examples of mainstream pop acts escalating guns/gangs/misogyny would be interesting. Can only think of the promotion of dv in Rihanna duetting with Enimem about liking the way it hurts or Pink talking about tempestuous relationships as a fire where you're gonna get burnt but am happy to hear of more...

Boomba Fri 19-Jul-13 07:39:02

most rapists are male chrissie...are you suspicious of every man you meet?

ChrissieTay Fri 19-Jul-13 07:54:41

Boomba - No, but I don't understand the relevance of your question tbh, if you could elaborate please?

ChrissieTay Fri 19-Jul-13 08:00:23

My reply to Jacqueline, re Z's cautiousness over black males, maybe because of the encounters he'd had previously - an example for me is that by where we live, there used to be a lot of teenage lads riding scrambler bikes and speeding in them, not only on the roads, but in the park too where children and animals were, now at the time, our house was broken into and witnesses claimed that our TV was taken by 2 lads, who left on a scrambler bike - my point is that now I am always more weary and cautious over lads on scrambler bikes - never black mind you, so that doesn't come into my example here, but I also understand that there are probably some genuine lads who ride these particular bikes, who aren't out to cause trouble, but because of our experience and the things I have witnessed whilst lads are on these bikes, has in fact made me very wary and extra cautious

BlingBang Fri 19-Jul-13 09:35:19

But to be nervous, fearful, suspicious of someone (even if you feel you have reason by past experiences) because of their skin colour is racism or prejudice. I imagine we all do it even subconsciously to a degree. But it doesn't make it right but to be able to understand and acknowledge it, is probably one step closer to dealing with this issue.

BlingBang Fri 19-Jul-13 09:39:38

His family must be devastate with the outcome. Their young son was out minding his own business and never came home and no one is being held accountable for that. they have had him trashed in the news, had to fight for an investigation.

I have absolutely no doubt that his skin colour definitely had a part to play in Zimmerman's pursuit of him and the attitude of the police and those laying blame at Martin's feet.

JaquelineHyde Fri 19-Jul-13 10:31:24

Chrissie I understand the experience you have shared. However, being extra cautious of certain people and situations due to past experience is completely different to what happened here.

Zimmerman was not being extra cautious he had decided based on skin colour alone that Martin was guilty of something. He was not behaving cautiously, he hunted Martin down, ran after him when he tried to flee. He was that determined to get his criminal...based on nothing other than the colour of Martin's skin.

Imagine you were walking home alone on a dark wet night and a man started following you. First of all in his car, slowly following behind you. Then when you were so scared you ran to try and get away, he got out of his car and chased after you, whilst on the phone to the police accusing you of being a criminal. Are you saying this would be perfectly acceptable if the man in question had experienced crime at the hands of someone with the same skin colour as you?

Not because he thought you looked like anyone specifically, not because you were doing anything remotely suspicious but just because of the colour of your skin.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Fri 19-Jul-13 10:38:01

His family must be devastate with the outcome. Their young son was out minding his own business and never came home and no one is being held accountable for that.

Not only that (as heartwrenching as it is) the blame has been put on their dead child. The court has stated Zimmerman was justified in his repulsive actions, so now the label of 'self defence' rests over their dead child's grave.

I can't imagine the pain that alone must cause. Frankly, I don't want too.

JaquelineHyde Fri 19-Jul-13 18:51:48

President Obama speaking live now about the Zimmerman case. Focussing clearly on racial profiling.

'A lot of African-American boys are painted with a broad brush'

'If a young white boy had been involved in this incident the outcome and the aftermath could have been different'

'It is understandable that there have been demonstration'

'Trayvon could have been me 35 years ago'

The examples of racial profiling he gave, experiences he has had are so saddening and I have so much respect for him for speaking out about this.