Mother and 2 children found dead - suicide/murder

(139 Posts)
ShaggingZumbaStylee Sun 14-Jul-13 00:46:10

It sounds like she was really struggling, but I find it so difficult to understand why she killed her children with her.

link

HeySoulSister Sun 14-Jul-13 00:49:49

Yep, find that difficult to 'get' as well

blueshoes Sun 14-Jul-13 00:52:28

Her children's lives were not hers to take. RIP

It sounds like she was terrified of leaving them behind for her abusive ex to raise.

A tragedy that she was pushed so far she couldn't keep fighting.

AlfalfaMum Sun 14-Jul-13 01:07:05

Awful terrible tragedy. That poor woman and her children.
Please, before directing anger at her, think of the abusive man 28 years her senior who put her in the state of mind to do this.

Solo Sun 14-Jul-13 01:07:24

Agree with SummerRain and I strongly believe that we cannot judge this Mum or anyone else in this situation because we cannot know what she was going through. 'There but for the grace of God go I' and all that.
I hope they all rest in peace.

What's sad is that it was preventable. Poor family. RIP thanks

chicaguapa Sun 14-Jul-13 07:29:34

Stories like this break my heart. That little boy was on his mum's back because he trusted her to look after him and she jumped! sad I find some of these stories really hard to deal with.

LtEveDallas Sun 14-Jul-13 07:34:22

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

HeySoulSister Sun 14-Jul-13 10:19:45

Sounds like they should have been removed from her care... Hindsight and all that

KatyaRachmanova Sun 14-Jul-13 19:44:27

I live close to Haytor and can't stop thinking about it. While it is totally horrific I just feel so so sad. i cannot find it in me to hate her, I am just appalled that the help she so obviously needed was lacking. RIP all three of you.

SoulTrain Sun 14-Jul-13 19:53:07

LtEveDallas - what a hateful post.

Without knowing the circumstances leading up to the terrible tragedy, and obviously never having experienced desperation, possible depression or fear as this lady probably has how could you possibly comment? You're rationalising with a sane mind, you can't even begin to understand what she might have been going through. Stop spouting "speaking as a mother" shit and spare a thought for a family member who could possible be reading your post - you hope she burns in hell? Who on earth actually thinks like that?

Your post has made me feel quite sick. sad

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 20:16:38

I can't help thinking that if genders were reversed, the feelings would be quite difference.

crescentmoon Sun 14-Jul-13 20:24:36

"Her children's lives were not hers to take"

yup agree. also agree that feelings would be very different if this had been a male family annihilator. RIP

SoulTrain Sun 14-Jul-13 20:51:01

hmm Oh right, a feminist thing is it?

cresent and tabitha;

I base my opinion on the (often scant) facts available from each case, not on MN consensus.

I've noticed when men do this the facts often suggest it is done as an act of vengeance on the mother for leaving. They are often accompanied by phone calls or letters to the mother accusing her of 'causing it' and statements along the lines of 'If I can't have them nobody can'.

If a male suicide/murder case occurs where I feel (based on the information available) that the man had acted out of desperation and fear i do feel exactly as i do in this situation. There have been cases here in ireland due to the economic crisis where men have killed their families due to a mental health breakdown resulting from severe financial hardship.

Equally I have seen female suicide/murder cases where I have not sympathised as strongly with the mother, where it has seemed like there were other options for the child/ren than to go to an abusive ex in the mothers absence (a close extended family, a loving husband, foster care as no family/ex on the scene).

Sympathising with the desperation a person must have felt in their final hours is not the same as condoning their actions. What this woman did was wrong, but it's not my place to judge her actions and condemn her to 'burning in hell'. I simply expressed horror at the situation that pushed a woman to feel she had no other escape, and more so, that leaving her children behind could possibly be worse for them than them dying at her hand. Think about that statement... she actually felt murdering them was safer than leaving them behind, can you imagine the fear she must have been living with?

crossparsley Sun 14-Jul-13 21:35:26

I don't believe in hell or vengeance but I'm with Lt Eve. It's not as if every family-murder-then-suicide father was untroubled, whatever we think of the specific troubles of each individual. I know that when you are in the grips of mental distress you don't think straight but really, if you ever are seriously thinking of killing children and you don't GET SOME HELP, in a country that has its faults but has got emergency facilities, then you are not just a victim. You have some responsibility.

HenWithAttitude Sun 14-Jul-13 21:49:54

The husband has been arrested for assaulting her in April. I don't think I can imagine she was thinking straight. I agree that if this was a man I'd view it differently (rightly or wrongly). I'd view it more as an aggressive act to deprive the mother rather than an act of desperation.

She went missing 3 months ago and was found in a distressed state. She obviously had mental health issues set against a background of an abusive relationship. Very tragic story and hard to comprehend her actions

LtEveDallas Sun 14-Jul-13 22:28:08

A family annihilator is a family annihilator, male or female. I care no more for this murderer than I cared for the bloke that jumped out of a hotel window with his kids, nor the guy in Shropshire, nor the ex soldier and so on.

If you kill your children, you get my hate, not my understanding.

I save my thoughts for the innocent children whose lives were selfishly ended by their murderers.

Oh and soultrain, I've never said 'speaking as a mother' in my life so don't know where you get that shit. As for sparing a thought for a family member? Is she had been my family member I would still feel the same. There is NEVER an excuse or a reason for killing an innocent child in cold blood. Better she handed the children into a police station and killed herself than take them with her.

If my post makes you feel sick? So be it. Frankly the murder of two children makes me sicker.

noddyholder Sun 14-Jul-13 22:29:42

Having sympathy/empathy for someone who has done something like that isn't the same as condoning it

CuttedUpPear Sun 14-Jul-13 22:31:00

Wishing someone to rot in hell who clearly had difficulty coping with life is a cruel and callous thing to do.

Don't judge until you have walked a mile in their shoes LtEve

noddyholder Sun 14-Jul-13 22:32:21

'you get my hate' Wow

LtEveDallas Sun 14-Jul-13 22:40:20

So I'm callous? No, callous is killing your children. Callous is giving your trusting son a piggyback then dashing him onto the rocks.

I'm sorry, but I will never understand. What she did was an evil act. Even in the depths of despair it was still an evil act. When a man wipes out his family people are up in arms about how evil he must be, how he must have been doing it to get back at their mother, how he killed just to hurt her. There is never any sympathy for his depression, never any excuses.

Maybe she did it to get back at her partner. Maybe the assault charge was a lie (he was never convicted), maybe she wanted him back and he said no. It's all equally a viable as what is currently being said.

There are very few things in this world that I am black and white about. But child murder is one. I see no shades of grey here. She killed them and in the most horrible of ways. I could not and would not forgive.

noddyholder Sun 14-Jul-13 22:42:19

Are you serious? SO much hate.

LtEveDallas Sun 14-Jul-13 22:44:52

Yes noddy, very serious. I don't see why I shouldn't be?

noddyholder Sun 14-Jul-13 22:48:28

Because you know absolutely nothing about those concerned You can think its a terrible crime and it is but your level of hate for the person who must have been in a terrible state that seems to be strange to me. You also seem hellbent on exonerating her partner. You hating like this does no good and tbh its bad for your health because it is going nowhere.

MrsDeVere Sun 14-Jul-13 22:48:32

I don't wish her to burn in hell.
I have no doubt she was desperate.

But she did kill two children and there is no escaping that fact.

Whatever her motives (and they do tend to be different from those of male family annihilators) she murdered those boys.

The ultimate in child abuse.

That does not make me full of hate. It makes me full of sadness that two little boys have been killed. I do not know how the two year old died but the other child died in a horrific way.

Being a feminist does not mean I cannot be horrified by this woman's actions.

noddyholder Sun 14-Jul-13 22:49:41

I agree horrified by her actions is something most people would feel. Sadness for those lives lost.

sunshine401 Sun 14-Jul-13 22:50:43

R.I.P poor young lives all taken far to soon. sad

mynameisslimshady Sun 14-Jul-13 22:55:22

I will be totally honest, I don't 'get' depression, I have been fortunate enough to have never had it and I really can't comprehend it at all.

So although my automatic response is to dismiss this woman as a cold blooded murderer, I have to try and imagine the depths she would have sank to to have done this (and if a previously loving Father had done this I would be saying the same).

Whatever peoples opinions of this woman are though, we have to remember that it won't be her reading them, it will be her family who have suffered so much already, so the hate for this woman should probably be kept off a public forum so as not to cause them more pain.

LtEveDallas Sun 14-Jul-13 22:55:44

You also seem hellbent on exonerating her partner No. If he assaulted her then he deserves to be punished. But as he hasn't yet had his day in court I will not jump to accuse him - innocent until proven guilty and all that.

I used him as an example, as well you know. Male family annihilators are never 'given the benefit of doubt' in the way that this woman has been.

You say that she 'must have been in a terrible state' but actually you don't know that. I find it chilling that it is reported that she asked a neighbour to take in her cat before she did it, if that is true, and not just neighbour gossip then that suggests a level of premeditation to me. Which just makes it worse.

sunshine401 Sun 14-Jul-13 23:00:57

Whatever peoples opinions of this woman are though, we have to remember that it won't be her reading them, it will be her family who have suffered so much already, so the hate for this woman should probably be kept off a public forum so as not to cause them more pain.

well said.

Those poor children sad My son is the same age as the poor boy she jumped with. RIP. So young, and such a horrible death- as all deaths are.

timtam23 Sun 14-Jul-13 23:16:27

MagicKey I was so sad to read about this too - my 2 boys are the same age as the little ones who died sad
Such a tragedy for those children, and how desperate she must have been to do what she did. I'm sure there will be a lot more background to this, which we are not aware of.
RIP all three of them

ineedtobreath Sun 14-Jul-13 23:25:26

You will never understand or know what was going through her mind unless u have been there
and let me tell you i have very recently there was alot of ea involved and it leaves you feeling like you want ti die i won't lie and say i haven't thought about it i have nobody who i would or could leave my dcs with and i would never leave them with my ex so maybe really think about what is your saying before saying it.
No one deserves to live or die as she and her sons r.i.p to them all

crossparsley Sun 14-Jul-13 23:28:04

The cat thing doesn't make it worse for me, really. People in otherwise psychotic states can be surprisingly responsible in other areas.

What upsets me is that if she had contacted anyone about her thoughts, there was a chance of this not happening. Anyone who perceives things to be so desperate that things would be better with their children dead (good heavens how terrible must that feel?) and tells someone about it, gets my sympathy right up until they go ahead and take all choices away from their children forever. It cannot possibly be worse to confess a murderous thought than to act on it.

I worked with someone who murdered his spouse in a psychotic state. He had been to A&E, desperate, beforehand, and they failed him and, more horribly, her. He is still responsible for what he did but he knew his feelings and thoughts were wrong, and his basic morality made him cry out for help before the worst happened. I don't know if this woman tried. If she didn't, we should condemn that inaction at the very least.

I wish there was a Samaritans for "if you are thinking of harming others". I know this is idealistic.

CuttedUpPear Mon 15-Jul-13 00:05:43

LtEve: "*I hope she burns in hell.*"
Yes you actually DID say that.

And your hate doesn't help anybody. Perhaps a little more love and understanding would have helped the poor woman, maybe not. But throwing more hate her way is really unpleasant.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 06:05:38

Never said I didn't cutteduppear. My hating her isn't going to make those children a little less dead is it? I may be unpleasant, but this is how I feel about what she has done. It's how I feel about anyone that purposely takes another's life. I cannot understand her, I don't want to understand her.

I feel desperately sorry for those poor children, I feel desperately sorry for her family. For the people that are going to have to live with the knowledge of what she has done. But for her, nothing.

(My views on religion/heaven/hell are confused, I'm agnostic. But I'd like to think there is a special part of hell set aside for child murderers - but that's my view and mine alone I'm sure)

ExcuseTypos Mon 15-Jul-13 09:49:57

It's reported in the press this morning that this mum went missing on Dartmoor a few months ago, it took 24 hrs to find her and she was suffering from hyperthermia.

She tried to commit subside a few weeks ago after a row with her partner.

He is on trial next month for assaulting her.

She has a restraining order against him- which says a lot about his behaviour.

Her dc were taken into care but given back to her, her family have described her as 'gentle and vulnerable'.

I feel very sorry for everyone involverd, including and especially her.

Lteve: It's how I feel about anyone that purposely takes another's life

You're a soldier aren't you? confused

OnTheNingNangNong Mon 15-Jul-13 10:04:19

The whole story is a tragedy. It has affected the whole community.

The details of the story are absolutely horrific and I hope she and her children are in peace.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 10:14:10

Yes summerrain, I am. Your point?

noddyholder Mon 15-Jul-13 10:18:00

Explains a lot

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 10:32:51

Ohh get you with the passive aggressive bolloks. Have the courage of your convictions and SAY what you mean.

I am a soldier. I have never killed anyone. No-one I know has purposely set out to murder 2 little children. I'm am sure that some of my comrades may well have killed during conflict, but I am equally sure that none of them have ever suffocated a 2 year old or thrown a 6 year old off a 100ft cliff.

She committed a terrible crime and does not deserve any sympathy from me.

OnTheNingNangNong Mon 15-Jul-13 10:33:27

The child wasn't thrown from a cliff.

CuttedUpPear Mon 15-Jul-13 10:38:28

I'm sorry I don't understand. What's the point of being a soldier and claiming to have never killed anyone? Surely you are in the position to kill if you have to/are told to, unlike the rest of us. It's only a matter of time and circumstance - or am I wrong? And how is suffocating a child worse than dropping a mortar bomb on their home, as our forces do in the middle east?

Also I know I am engaging with this nasty claptrap but it's not the point of the thread so I'm sorry about that.

MrsDeVere Mon 15-Jul-13 10:49:06

The children and her are dead.
Not at peace
I hate all that fucking bollocks.

Dead children should be alive, however they have died.

They are not at peace. They are dead.

I totally understand *ltEve's anger even if I do not agree with everything she says. She has the right to be angry at what happened. Just as others have the right to feel sorry for the woman.

It is an absolute truth that if this was a father this thread would be totally different in tone.

It is terrible that this poor woman felt she had no other way out than to take her own life and that of her children. It may be she feared them going into care again or to her exP.

But she killed two little boys. She murdered them. Its splitting hairs to say one was not chucked off a cliff. He was, he was just on his mother's shoulders at the time.

It is all so unbearable. So tragic.

If she had taken her own life my thoughts would have been with her parents and their grief. They still are but I cannot get past the loss of those little boys and the manner of their deaths.

OnTheNingNangNong Mon 15-Jul-13 11:01:25

I don't know. Perhaps because I can see the grief locally, that I hope the children are at peace. I have no qualms to say that she killed them, it shouldn't have happened. But it has happened.

The children were failed. But it doesn't mean I can't wish them peace after such horror.

dufflefluffle Mon 15-Jul-13 11:02:27

I used to think like you do LtEve and then I suffered a bout of depression. For the first time in my life I could understand how someone could go and take their children with them. Previously I could not understand even how anyone could take their own lives leaving children to cope with that stigma. I now understand that someone suffering from severe depression is not thinking in a rational or reasonable way.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 11:14:08

I'm sorry I don't understand. What's the point of being a soldier and claiming to have never killed anyone?

I'm not claiming anything cutteduppear, I have NEVER killed anyone. In fact quite the opposite, I helped a 12 year old CHILD give birth to her rapists baby during the Bosnia conflict. A British soldiers job is not to kill. A British soldiers job is to bring peace, sometimes the way that is achieved is in conflict (ie Iraq and Afghanistan) but in the majority of cases it is not.

(Oh and British soldiers do not drop mortar bombs, so no, you don't understand)

Thank you for your understanding MrsDV, I appreciate it. I am angry, yes. Two children are dead and in the most horrific and painful circumstances. I cannot get over that. I cannot get over the way in which she chose to end her children's lives. I get that she may have been depressed, and I get that depression is irrational and devastating, but the choice she made. The way she chose to murder her kids is just beyond me, beyond my understanding and I just cannot feel any compassion for her.

MrsDeVere Mon 15-Jul-13 11:19:01

There is no doubt this is a tragic, sad and just horrible, horrible thing.

I suppose my overriding thought is 'I wish she hadn't done it'. I can't really think of much else to be honest.

I have been depressed. The though of the DCs is the thing that kept me from taking my own life. If I thought they were going to be taken from me, who knows what I would do?
But taking them with me? Hurting them?

I cannot imagine that.
But I already have a dead child. It is a reality to me, I don't have to imagine it.

That isn't meant as a top trump btw. Its just I think it changes everything. Your main aim in life, your one wish really is to keep your others alive.
Everything else is a bonus.

IF that makes any sense?

AimForTheMoon Mon 15-Jul-13 11:24:44

I couldn't help but judge the relationship between a 24 year old woman and a 52 year old man when i first read about this case. she was only 19 when she had her first child to him, he was 48. hardly an equal relationship surely? the more I read about the case, the worse it sounds.

It is undoubtedly terrible that she has killed those two little boys, but in my opinion, it is also terrible that this poor girl ended up in an abusive relationship, with someone so much older than her, and has ended up feeling that killing herself and her children was the only option. I feel hugely sorry for her and the children.

toffeelolly Mon 15-Jul-13 11:27:27

She was not in right mind to do something so awlful.

I have a friend who was in hospital for five months. She was admitted because she was suicidal...and wanted to kill her three children aged 1, 5 and 6. She was psychotic as a result of severe depression. She'd had no real help, no real intervention or support. Help is given AFTER the situations, but many hospitals ignore the lead up. She had family and friends who drove her to hospital and got her admitted and made sure she got help and they were her advocates, they demanded medical attention and they made sure that she got everything she needed. She is still on medication but has stopped the therapy.

Every single moment, she has loved her children. She once told me she loved them in the craziest way possible. Life was unbearable. So it would be cruel to let, no, force her own children to live out that life too. That was her reasoning- she said it was crazy. She loved them but she was mentally unstable and her love could have ended in disaster.

I know how hard we had to push to get her help. I know how much she loves her children. I know she carries the weight of her experience every single day and that she was repeatedly failed by hospitals, GPs and the NHS and that it was only luck that she had family and friends living nearby who could make sure that she was supported. Se was vulnerable and mentally ill.

I can't imagine wanting to kill my child. I can't imagine having my child die, let alone being the cause. The woman may have been coldheatted and evil. Or she might have been severely ill and was failed again and again after having a terrible life. The poor children sad I don't think I could have sympathy if it wasn't for my friend. I am very, very lucky that I have living children who I can hug every single day, and I can't imagine wanting to end their lives, I can't imagine them stopping existing. But I guess that woman could and did and now three lives have been lost, two innocent, young children are gone. sad

My heart goes out to all the familysad, so sad, so needless and i will never understand how someone can kill their own childrensad

Spero Mon 15-Jul-13 11:56:37

Lteve - I don't think I can comprehend of something more horrible and distressing than a small vulnerable child being hurt or killed by the adult he looked for to keep him safe.

But to hope that the mother 'burns in hell' is nasty.

I had a client who planned her own suicide and those of her children. She honestly believed she would be doing the right thing, that they would be all together in a safe and warm place. Luckily a family member was able to intervene and almost a year later, lots of drugs and therapy she isn't so ill anymore and her children are coming home, where they want to be.

I think your attitude or hate for people who have literally 'Lost their minds' explains a lot of the stigma that still attaches to mental illness.

I will reserve my hate for those parents who have murdered their children but before so doing they have put the children on the phone to say 'goodbye'. Funny how often those parents don't manage to kill themselves either. That suggests to me they knew what they were doing. I don't see how this woman did.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 12:00:20

Makes perfect sense MrsDV. When life is shit, when everything around you is falling apart, surely the only thing worth keeping going for is your family?

I had a friend that killed herself. She had a 5 year old and a 9 month old at the time. She was determined to die, nothing was going to stop her (she paid for her own funeral FGS). But the day she did it she made sure her kids were safe, made sure they were cared for before she took her own life. Now I was still furious with her for killing herself, but the provision she made for her kids was admirable.

She felt worthless - but her kids were worth more.

ShowOfHands Mon 15-Jul-13 12:02:48

LtEve, your opinion is your own and you are entitled to it. I think you sum it up best with your admission, twice in fact, that you don't understand why she did it and you admit you don't want to understand either. That's fine really as there's no reason for you to have to understand it. I only hope that those people whose job it is to understand this sort of behaviour strive harder to learn from this.

I have the same reaction to male and female family annihilators. I do strive to understand. This isn't anything to do with condoning or excusing behaviours but everything to do with trying to appreciate the complexities of such atrocious situations. It's disgusting and horrendous and all of the other ways you can describe it. Those children have been let down. But that poor woman has been let down too and I can't judge her for her actions because I have never been in her head. The actions in isolation are despicable but they didn't come from a straightforward choice.

Spero Mon 15-Jul-13 12:06:05

Yes, and Sylvia Plath made sure there were towels under the door when she gassed herself so that her children didn't die.

I agree, not every parent who kills themselves also kills their children. Some parents kill their children deliberately or carelessly. And some parents are in the grip of pyschotic delusions and GENUINELY believe they are doing the right thing.

To suggest that some one like that should 'burn in hell' is just nasty.

ShowOfHands Mon 15-Jul-13 12:08:34

TheMagicKey, I'm so pleased your friend is finally getting there. Sounds like she has some brilliant people around her. I hope she knows that none of what she has been through makes her a bad mother. She doesn't need to carry around that guilt. She was ill. And you can reassure her from me that a parent with depression and psychosis can still be the biggest, most brilliant and giant of a parent who is unconditionally adored by their children. I was one of those children.

Really LtEveDallas - it isn't like she was in a normal place was it - you do not choose to take your own life let alone those of your children if you are not extremely mentally ill (in this case).

It's an evil act to a sane rational mind - but it seems she was neither and until you have or seen someone suffer from extreme mental illness it is very easy to pass judgement.

miemohrs Mon 15-Jul-13 12:21:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 12:24:02

Spero, Show, but we don't actually know any of this about that woman do we? Those with compassion (of which I am obviously not one) are suggesting that she is depressed etc, but actually nothing has been released conclusively proves that.

My burn in hell comment comes off the back of the first reports. A knee jerk reaction to a family annihilator and TBH until it is confirmed that she had mental heath problems or was in the midst of a pyschotic delusion then I cannot feel anything but anger against her - and I DON'T believe that posters would be making the same allowances and/or excuses if it was the 52 year old man that jumped off the cliff in this case - they'd be full of sympathy for the poor mother who had been left behind suffering the devastating loss of her kids.

Where is the sympathy for the father of those children. The one that now has to live without them knowing that their ending was full of pain and suffering?

(and actually, as for burn in hell? It's just words. She's dead. She doesn't care what I say. I don't think she is currently sitting in a vat of molten rock suffering for her sins. She's just dead.)

ShowOfHands Mon 15-Jul-13 12:36:26

LtEve, no we don't know anything about the woman which is why I said that those people whose job it was to understand and prevent what happened, should be working to learn from this. If she was let down, if agencies were involved and there were failings etc, then the real onus is on them, not on us as speculative forum users. But this in mind, it is not my place to judge not knowing the facts. But I can strive to understand mental health issues in general terms and to accept that such terrible, desperate acts, I'm fortunate enough to not understand rationally. I choose as a person not to direct feelings such as hate towards a target I have little knowledge of. You choose to feel hatred for that woman. It doesn't mean either of us has any less sympathy or sadness for the situation or the family members left behind, merely that we choose to direct our energies differently.

And I would react the same way to a father who had done this. This doesn't mean I wouldn't have sympathy for the mother left childless. You're making the mistake of thinking we can only have one feeling at once.

How terribly sad sad

I have heard of several very sad tragedies like this over recent years. One in my city that I had some tenuous links with - mainly I knew people who knew the family.

So overwhelmingly my feeling is it's very sad - and mothers and families need more support from their families and communities.

But I do also feel that it is wrong as a mother to kill your children. Sometimes that aspect seems to get slightly lost in the reporting and general response of society I feel.
But I'd rather it got lost than people spoke so harshly of the mother as to say they hated her or to speak of hell.

I think some balanced, compassionate, but rational middle ground is needed.

miemohrs Mon 15-Jul-13 12:57:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsDeVere Mon 15-Jul-13 13:19:24

bloody hell
even if the father is a total dick to not feel sympathy for him?
Come off it.
How is that better than wishing the mother burns in hell?

His DCs are dead. We don't know what he did and he may have been a very unpleasant man but so are some of the partners of male murderers. But their children have been taken in the most horrific way.

50shadesofvomit Mon 15-Jul-13 13:33:41

What a tragedy...

At the risk of being flamed, I can sympathise with someone who took this desperate and tragic choice.

Im a single parent of 3. 2 out of 3 of my kids hate their Dad and would not want to live with him if I couldn't take care of them. Their extended family would not take them in either. The thought of my kids forced to live with a person they despise or to be in care breaks my heart.

I've suffered depression and been suicidal. I am on meds but fear it returning. Living with mental health issues is really tough. I hope that the woman and children are at peace.

ChippingInHopHopHop Mon 15-Jul-13 13:34:47

It is a terrible tragedy that 3 people have lost their lives sad

It is very very sad how it happened, but this woman was clearly under a lot of stress... I don't think anyone can judge her until you have walked in her shoes. She clearly didn't feel she could leave them with their father and seemingly didn't have anyone else who she thought would care for them. She obviously thought they would be better off dead than being left alone.

It is incredibly sad that she believed this was her only option. Isn't that the bottom line??

As for it getting a different response if was a man... it wouldn't (from me) if he was in exactly the same position, but that's rare - generally it seems that when men have killed their children it is so their (perfectly adequate, not emotionally/physically abusive) Mum can't have them. It is not the same, not at all.

ChippingInHopHopHop Mon 15-Jul-13 13:38:18

50shadesofvomit - you don't deserve to be flamed, not at all. I am lucky not to have suffered from serious depression, so I can only imagine how I'd feel - but I can understand how scary it must be to feel that you don't have any other option sad

RoooneyMara Mon 15-Jul-13 13:38:38

What immediately struck me was that in a situation where, say, your partner is abusing you, threatening you and assaulting you, and you are a mother, you have got VERY VERY LITTLE CHANCE of preventing him having contact with your children.

I am imagining, though it is purely speculation that, well what if he had said to her, if you kill yourself, I'll take the children...you cannot protect them...and perhaps she did not know what else to do.

I don't know if any of this might be true but I know the way the family court system is set up is absolutely TERRIFYING to some abused women, because it is weighted hugely in allowing contact between children and abusive, dangerous fathers.

I shan't cast judgment either way, in my own mind, until I am more aware of the circumstances, which may be never.

MrsDeVere Mon 15-Jul-13 13:41:18

It is pretty well documented that men tend to do this for different reasons than women.
When men do it the media do their best to find a reason why it is the woman's fault. She will be accused of affairs, goading, wanting to divorce, taking the kids away etc.

There does tend to be a more automatic feeling of female perpetrators initially though.

Neither is fair. Each case should be looked at separately. But its just too much, the death of a child by their parent's hands. Its not surprising people react instinctively.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 13:42:09

I'd have more sympathy for the father if he didn't have a restraining order out against him

Restraining Orders don't necessarily mean violence, although in this case I imagine it did. Just as his arrest for assault may not mean a serious assault (but all assaults are bad)

But no matter what he did - his 'punishment' seems to be having his children murdered... In what world can that be right? Those posters berating me for having no sympathy for the mother... why aren't you expressing the same sympathy for the father?

I have sympathy and compassion for him - he has lost his children. I have sympathy and compassion for her family, for his family, and for the friends and relatives of those poor kids. But I have no sympathy for a dead person, she's dead. She's got it easy compared to them.

GobbySadcase Mon 15-Jul-13 13:45:55

I've had PND so bad that I was planning my suicide. Only I was that irrational that I then thought "oh shit, what about the kids, can't leave them behind".

I'm well over that now, and looking back I'm horrified by it, but don't underestimate what you can think when the balance of your mind is disturbed.

Chubfuddler Mon 15-Jul-13 14:35:25

I agree with spero and mrsdv and others.

But the dominant opinion expressed on this thread would be MUCH more along the lines of LtEve's if a man had done this. Not perhaps these specific posters, but in general the response to a man killing his children is "bastard" and to a woman is "poor thing".

handcream Mon 15-Jul-13 17:09:09

This is a horrible case and the women (for whatever reason) chose to kill her children. She might have been under a lot of stress - most of us are now with so much pressure on but we dont kill our children.

Some women seem to forgive and forgive their partners, taking them back again and again with sometimes not a thought for their children. A man - any man is better than being on their own.

If a mad man had taken the children and killed them due to the same sort of stress that this women was under would we have sympathy for him - somehow I dont think so.

This women murdered her children. I cannot forgive her and try and find excuses why she did it

ExcuseTypos Mon 15-Jul-13 17:18:10

Every case is different and as MrsDeVere said, men and women usually kill their children for different reasons. It's quite natural to have an instant opinion about a case, but surely most reasonable people have an opinion then say 'we will have to wait for the facts', before saying such nasty things as 'I hope she burns on Hell'

Based on the facts so far, the mum has been let down by a lot of people and I feel desperately sorry that she felt this was her only option. (Her mother also died last year and she had a restraining order against her partner. The two people who should have helped her the most either couldn't or actually made things worse)

Spero Mon 15-Jul-13 17:18:18

No we don't know what was going through her mind, or what wasn't. We may never know.

She could have been a cold hearted murderous bitch. I don't know.

But hoping that someone 'burns in hell' is not just 'words'. That is disingenuous. You are sending a very clear message there.

And I have felt the same sadness when a father does this. There was a case in Shropshire recently where father killed all 3 children and then himself. I can't believe that his life wasn't anything other than a living hell in the moments before he did something like that.

No one is asking anyone to feel an emotion they don't feel. But unless and until you know for sure she was sane and a deliberate malicious killer, it is simply more human to keep the 'burn in hell' comments to yourself.

ExcuseTypos Mon 15-Jul-13 17:19:26

*either couldn't help her or made things worse.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 17:43:12

Excellent, so simply for telling the truth about my feelings in this case makes me "nasty" "inhuman" "unreasonable" "sickening" and I should keep my comments to myself, but a CHILD KILLER you can show sympathy and compassion for?

No sympathy or compassion or even just understanding for me or my feelings then? You only save that for murderers? All murderers, or just child murderers? Do you show the same compassion to George Zimmerman?

Nice set of priorities you have there.

RoooneyMara Mon 15-Jul-13 17:46:57

I have only read this to a lesser degree so I apologise if I have missed something, but Lt Eve, I believe the compassion is generated by the woman having also killed herself, along with the children.

RoooneyMara Mon 15-Jul-13 17:48:11

and by the fact? that she may well have been driven to it by desperate abuse. We don't know yet.

Spero Mon 15-Jul-13 18:05:06

Not everything that is true needs to be spoken. You could express your rage and sorrow without wishing someone to hell, particularly when you have no knowledge about her mental state at the time.

Worriedmind Mon 15-Jul-13 18:05:17

I can understand being so scared that you want to run rather than your exh getting anywhere near the kids. I cant understand killing them no but then I have never ever reached that awful a place to consider it.

I do feel pity although I would probably feel angry if it had been a man that had done it.

Everyone's being horrible to each other here, entrenched in their own view. Lots of hate on both sides.

It seems simple to me, observing this - people's reaction to this is firmly based in their own experience. Most of us here are women and mothers. Some will have walked a happy calm path, not depressed, cheerful, in perfect mental health. Others have made journeys through really dark places and might still be there. That's where your sympathy, or anger lies. So for some this story is incomprehensible, and for some, 'there but for the grace of god ...'.

I haven't actually clicked the link; I don't need to put those details in my heads in order to feel sadness and pain for everyone concerned.

MrsDeVere Mon 15-Jul-13 18:49:38

Everyone is most certainly not being horrible to everyone.

pippetypong Mon 15-Jul-13 18:55:05

Anyone who thinks that someone so vulnerable and desperate should 'burn in hell' needs help with the sickness in their mind.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 19:00:54

No they aren't, I agree.

I'm being horrible about the mother, I know that, I know it makes me sound awful, but that's how I feel about her. I haven't been horrible to anyone else or called anyone else any pejorative names etc. I've been horrible about a dead person. Someone who doesn't know or care. She has no feelings to be hurt, she's dead.

I don't hate anyone on this thread. I don't indulge in name calling, personal attacks or passive aggressive nastiness. I hate Katherine Hooper for what she did to her innocent children.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 19:01:27

Oh good, there's another one, charming.

HenWithAttitude Mon 15-Jul-13 19:04:01

I'm guessing that a woman who commits suicide but leaves her children alive, feels confident that someone will look after them

If you feel tortured and desperately desperately unhappy, unable to see an escape from that other than suicide, it probably seems logical to protect your DC from the same fate you are escaping from by taking them with you.

Whatever, this is a tragedy.

mynameisslimshady Mon 15-Jul-13 19:13:31

But Lt what is the point in you expressing your hate on here?

As you say she won't know or care, but her living relatives will.

At the very least could you show a bit of respect for them by saying such hurtful things that they will see should they stumble across this thread.

Long after your rage has calmed down and you have forgotton about the tragedy that is now part of their daily lives they will be suffering, so in this situation I think it should be a case of, if you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

If you're going to get all 'burn in hell'esque about people who kill then we probably should think about the motive.
So Victoria Climbie's aunt for example - the motive was what? Anger, aggression, fear, sadism? Thomas Hamilton - that would be anger and revenge then. Jeremy Bamber - money? Anger and resentment?

So all of those people (who I've just randomly thought of btw) had definable motives which would in any right thinking person provoke disgust and anger.
What was the motive here though? As far as we can see it's despair isn't it? An inability to otherwise manage the very difficult circumstances this woman found herself in. Universally women in this circumstance will if they are able, articulate a desire to take care of their dc. They don't leave them behind for whatever particular nightmare that consumed the mother to consume them too. Killings like this, though shocking and tragic, are done to protect as best as the mother sees she can do.

I'm not going to condemn a mothe like that. I think it's desperately sad that she felt this was her only path. I hope that little boy did not feel fear but only her love,because she did love those boys and to deny that, to accuse her of 'evil' is really to misconstrue what's happened.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 19:38:13

I hope that little boy did not feel fear but only her love

Unfortunately as he didn't die instantly, as the police reported he died a short time after the fall, then I think that is unlikely. As for his brother, suffocation is actually a violent way to die and again isn't instantaneous sad

That's why I feel the way I do. Has she have given them an overdose, or even subjected them to carbon monoxide poisoning, maybe I wouldn't wish her to suffer, but she didn't. She took their lives in a violent, terrifying and painful way. I think that is evil, yes.

Well you're wrong. She took her own life too. That is not evil.

Btw - the purpose of having an army is to defend a state and possibly advance it's position by military might. Killing people is an essential part of that. There are plenty of soldiers who haven't killed but all are trained to do so to some extent.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 19:52:48

I never said that taking her own life was evil. I said that taking her children's lives in such a violent, terrifying and painful way was evil. That is my distinction and why I feel the way I do.

I think what has happened, is a terrible and tragic and utterly horrible thing. For now I'm content to just deal with that, with the surface of it. When more details inevitably come to light I'll think about it more, but as it stands, the details matter less than my feelings of sorrow for these deaths.

OnTheNingNangNong Mon 15-Jul-13 20:15:12

LtEve, please think of the relatives and friends of the lady and her children. She may be dead but her relatives are not. How do you think they would they feel reading that?

<<sigh>> No I know you didn't say that. I'm saying you HAVE to look at motive and because she also took her own life , her despair is plain to see. Rendering the deaths of the little lads as acts of desperation, grief and a desire to protect NOT 'evil'.

It's beyond me why a poster who is usually pretty sensible would line up with the unthinking lynch mob mentality on this one.

I agree with Ltve, she didn't have to take her children with her and yes it was evil. Innocents, those poor children would have been petrified and i cannot have sympathy for a woman that thought of herself before that of her children. I feel sorry for the family that are left with the aftermath and the heartbreak & the sadness.
I will never understand how a father or a mother can kill or hurt their own flesh and blood.

Iwaswatchingthat Mon 15-Jul-13 21:01:46

Severe depression if untreated can be a terminal illness.

It is something you would not wish on your own worst enemy.

This mother was probably at her lowest point and felt that taking the children from the world was the best thing to do.

Of course most people cannot imagine how she felt or why she did it. It is an extreme event brought about by extreme circumstances.

It is so very sad that she had no support or at least felt she had no other option.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 21:07:58

It's beyond me why a poster who is usually pretty sensible would line up with the unthinking lynch mob mentality on this one

And I was surprised at you and the passive aggressive posts, for the same reasons.

Obviously it is a subject that evokes strong emotions in the both of us, on opposing viewpoints. I will however, refrain from calling you names.

I said at the very start of this thread that child murder is black and white for me. It is one of the very few areas that is. I cannot comprehend her actions and I cannot understand.

This topic really brings out the unfeeling, unimaginative side to people doesn't it? hmm

Where have I called you names? I think you're wrong. I think your posts display a particularly nasty frame of mind that I am shocked to find you hold. That's an opinion, not an exercise in name calling.

HenWithAttitude Mon 15-Jul-13 21:33:27

I feel like doing a MNHQ Ahem here smile

Emotions are high because of the nature of this murder and suicide. Perhaps instead of an emotional angry exchange ...agree to differ in your outlooks. LtEve holds very strong views which are not waived by any comments. No point in anyone trying to change that and points have been made by both sides.

It's tragic. We all agree on that

noddyholder Mon 15-Jul-13 21:43:35

Surely we all have the ability to see outside of our own little box in a case like this. It is something so horrendous that the perpetrator can only have been in an absolutely psychotic state and there is no way you can relate to that if you have never been there but there just times when you have to look at things a different way. My brother suffered a period of psychosis several years ago and he was convinced he had to get rid of all his possessions or he would never recover and he threw everything he owned (literally) in the river. H ehas long since had treatment and even now says he just felt he had to

MrsDeVere Mon 15-Jul-13 22:00:49

That is probably the case and I think we want to think it is the case.
But we don't know do we?

You really cannot say 'can only have been in..'

You could argue that believing that she was psychotic is thinking inside a little box because it is involving your own experiences and feelings.

I am not saying you are wrong. I am just suggesting that in this case we know very little.

Not everyone with experience of severe MH issues thinks the same.

To lose a loved one is a terrible thing and it is made even harder when the world is watching, judging and speculating.

Even if she really was very ill (and I think she probably was) the children are the main victims here. They had no power, no choice.
It is all terribly distressing and I can understand the anger this case engenders even if I do not share it.

noddyholder Mon 15-Jul-13 22:12:18

I cannot understand the anger. I am not thinking insode a box I am just saying that sometimes when someone acts completely against societal norm it is not something we can judge

MrsDeVere Mon 15-Jul-13 22:24:11

I don't get that. It doesn't make sense.
Anyone who takes a life acts completely against the societal norm.
Rape, assault, animal cruelty etc are all outside the norm and they are all judged.

MrsDeVere Mon 15-Jul-13 22:25:32

You really cannot understand someone being angry that two children have been murdered?
I find that hard to understand myself.

Not that you are NOT angry but that you cannot understand why others would be.

ExcuseTypos Mon 15-Jul-13 22:37:25

I'm angry but I feel anger towards the people who let her down.

I'm not angry at a woman who has twice tried to kill herself.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Jul-13 22:55:47

I am just saying that sometimes when someone acts completely against societal norm it is not something we can judge

My brother was murdered. The man that murdered him was acting 'completely against the societal norm'.

Too right I judge him. I hate him. I hope that he meets a horrible, painful and lasting end. I will celebrate when he is dead, and then maybe piss on his grave.

My brother was a grown man with a family of his own. But he was still my mothers child. Her firstborn. Her son.

But at least he lived. At least he had a chance to live his life in the way he chose - and his death was relatively painless. Those boys didn't even have that.

edam Mon 15-Jul-13 23:40:22

It's clearly a horrible tragedy. Poor woman and poor children. She was clearly extremely vulnerable - what look like previous suicide attempts, a victim of violence... she desperately needed help and sadly it doesn't seem to have been there.

blueshoes Mon 15-Jul-13 23:55:51

The way in which this mother "chose" (which I use loosely if she was disturbed in the mind) to kill her children was horrific. If she felt that things were so bad that she had to take her children with her, she could have done so in a way in which they did not have to suffer.

I'm sorry. I have very little sympathy for her even if she was in a desperate place. The way she killed her children, I don't really care to understand her plight. It is her poor angels who deserve our sympathy.

ExcuseTypos Tue 16-Jul-13 07:13:13

LtEve, I'm very sorry about your brother. As someone said up thread, we all come to this thread carrying our own experiences. I can now understand why you feel the way you do about this case.

Someone very close to me was killed in a car accident. A 17 year old beautiful girl with all her life in front of her. Any thread about speeding drivers brings me out, all guns blazing. I have pure anger towards people who speed or drive dangerously. It's all very understandable.

handcream Tue 16-Jul-13 11:13:22

Why is she a 'poor' women? She killed her children. Realistically social services should have got those children out of there.

But SS dont do they... They give chance after chance to people who make the most appaling decisions and let them do it again and again. If the partner had done this would we be saying the same thing. Somehow I dont think so.

Trigglesx Tue 16-Jul-13 17:12:16

I think a lot of these types of situations is down to poor mental health care and lack of support for those that are struggling with stress and mental health issues or DV.

Time and time again we see that there are red flags all over the place after the fact, which would have saved not only the children, but the parent as well. When my H had mental health problems, it took over 6 months to get counselling. They just handed him some antidepressants and turned him loose. It was not pretty.

Perhaps it's time to call for better mental health care and support, rather than endlessly arguing over whether or not she is evil.

Personally, if MNHQ was going to do a really worthwhile campaign, this would be it.

Spero Tue 16-Jul-13 17:23:11

I read an article today which said she had tried to kill herself before, the children went briefly into care then were returned. It didn't sound like she had any help or support. I think she must have felt utterly helpless, utterly adrift and by now knew that no one would help her.

So I don't wish her burning in hell.

And i dont understand why our own our own personal tragedies are a justification or excuse for stripping ourselves of any compassion for others.

I bet every single person on this thread has had to face tragedy in some form or other.

I wouldn't want some of you to judge me when I have been at my lowest.

But I think not even acknowledging it is wrong to kill, especially children, which seems to be how these tragedies are reported, is not right either.

Surely we can say that something is wrong as well as terribly sad, and as well as recognising that there are reasons behind things happening too. And therefore that support could be improved to prevent future tragedies.

Personally I find the lack of recognition of any middle ground frustrating.

edam Tue 16-Jul-13 18:42:52

I think everyone knows it is wrong to kill children. Doesn't that go without saying? But when you look at a terrible tragedy like this, you tend to ask 'why?' And asking why is probably more constructive than slagging off one of the victims. Maybe we will discover something that can help to avoid future tragedies.

I once heard a war reporter talking about her experiences. She explained that one crisis she was covering, I think in East Timor, mothers were throwing their babies over a razor-wire fence into the UN compound. They were desperate - the knew soldiers were coming, that civilians would be slaughtered, and throwing their babies was perhaps the only chance they had to protect them. Many of those babies were killed in that compound. Does anyone feel like judging those mothers? If not, why not?

Is it because they were acting in some ways rationally in a desperate situation? Perhaps someone who is suicidal believes they are acting rationally to protect their children. It may not look rational to an outsider, that's because we aren't suicidal and suffering from altered reality, or a reality that is too painful for an onlooker to understand.

MrsDeVere Tue 16-Jul-13 19:02:02

I am not reading a thread where no middle ground has been reached.
I am not reading a thread where everyone is being nasty to each other.
I am reading a thread with different views from different posters.

No one who is posting on this thread knows anymore than the next person. No one has anymore insight than the next person.

Whatever they think.

Spero Tue 16-Jul-13 19:50:58

I seem to be on a different thread. I haven't read anyone to say that killing children is ever 'right' - I thought there was pretty universal recognition that it is shocking and terrible.

My problem is the automatic assumption that this mother is an evil bitch who should burn in hell.

Because it is those assumptions that further stigmatise mental illness, that drives sufferers underground and makes others scared or disinclined to help them.

I feel sorry for anyone who is so desperate or evil or stupid that they think killing their children is an option. That doesn't mean I congratulate them.

noddyholder Tue 16-Jul-13 20:50:32

Perfectly said spero.

Fair enough MrsDeV.

I guess we all bring whatever insight we can find to something like this in an attempt to make some sense of it, at least for ourselves.

LtEveDallas Tue 16-Jul-13 21:24:53

No one who is posting on this thread knows anymore than the next person. No one has anymore insight than the next person

Very true MrsDV, we only 'know' what we have read. It is the'facts' of the case that have made me angry, maybe more will come out in time that will soften my views, I don't know, none of us do.

ChippingInHopHopHop Wed 17-Jul-13 01:35:23

She was that desperate that it seemed like her only option... she is not 'evil', she was badly failed by the man who should have loved & protected her & by our society. How can you blame a woman for doing the only thing she thought would protect her & her children?!

cory Wed 17-Jul-13 08:31:56

edam Tue 16-Jul-13 18:42:52
"I think everyone knows it is wrong to kill children. Doesn't that go without saying? But when you look at a terrible tragedy like this, you tend to ask 'why?'"

What worries me is that if it had been a father committing suicide with his children, we don't tend to ask those questions- at least not on Mumsnet. There is very little tendency to excuse a man in that situation on grounds of mental health or desperation: however little is known about the actual case, the consensus is usually that he is an evil bastard who does it specifically to get at the mother.

I guess it does make a difference though cory if the person is the primary care giver - the relentlessness of the 24/7 responsibility and work of motherhood ?

Fathers are not usually in that sort of situation with young children ?
But I agree there's a discrepancy in our attitudes (in society and media) which may not be fair or fully warranted.

And perhaps I feel that the wrongness of the murder of the children is not something which should "go without saying" - however self evident it may be.

LtEveDallas Wed 17-Jul-13 09:15:01

But I agree there's a discrepancy in our attitudes (in society and media) which may not be fair or fully warranted

I agree. There is always a tendancy to give the mother the benefit of the doubt, or to excuse her actions by saying with absolute certainty that she was depressed, or abused, or protecting her children and so on.

I do not believe for a second if it was the boys father that had done this, that we (the MN 'we') would be saying the same about him. In fact quite the opposite - posters have jumped on the fact that he must be an abuser - when he hasn't actually been convicted yet. I'm just as guilty - I'm quite sure he will be convicted, but actually, he could quite easily be a victim in all this too.

I am also shocked that there have been no (or hardly any) posts expressing sympathy for him - he has lost his children in the most awful circumstances, but all the sympathy seems to be aimed at the dead person (who doesn't care) rather than the living parent who now has to live with his loss for the rest of his life.

Spero Wed 17-Jul-13 10:54:22

I have explicitly said earlier that I feel sympathy for any parent who kills their children and kills themselves. I mentioned the father in Shropshire last year.

Not because I know anything - I only 'know' what I read in paper, but because it is a reasonable assumption that a parent who has loved with and nurtured children for many years was likely not in their right mind in the time leading up to the murders. And had those around them noticed, had help been given, a tragedy may well have been averted.

There is an annoying amount of unnecessary emotive hyperbole on this thread.

It's not a question of all child killers should burn in hell but recognising that a lot of the time these parents are just not well.

LtEveDallas Wed 17-Jul-13 11:11:25

If that is aimed at me Spero, please note I said expressing sympathy for the other parent in this case, not the parent that has killed.

Spero Wed 17-Jul-13 13:19:12

I was referring to your post of 9.15 where you apparently make the claim that if the father had killed the children, we wouldn't be expressing any sympathy for him. It's your third paragraph.

I disagree with this. I try not to be a sexist bigot so I try not to judge someone differently because they do or do not have a penis.

LtEveDallas Wed 17-Jul-13 14:45:08

Ah right, OK, I understand now. Apologies.

I think you are very much an exception Spero. As much as I admire (and believe) your stance, I don't think that the 'collective' or 'majority' of MN would be the same. There have been many cases of filicide reported in the press, and then posted on MN that have had quite an opposite view to this thread, simply because the perpetrator was male.

In fact I would say that was true IRL too - there was a study into Infant Homicide in 2004 that stated as one of its findings that a male perpetrator would be more likely to be charged and found guilty of murder, whereas a female perpetrator would be charged with manslaughter, despite identical offences.

For me it is quite simple I suppose. I cannot excuse or find sympathy in myself for a murderer - of either sex. A child murder invokes even stronger feelings. I felt the same way as I do now about the guy who beat and stabbed his children to death in Shropshire. It's partly the fact that they are children that have been killed, and partly because of the way they were killed. I would be more accepting (probably not quite the right word) if the children had painless, quiet deaths. I just cannot get past the manner of death in this case.

noddyholder Wed 17-Jul-13 17:51:30

When you sit down face to face with someone in the throes of a psychotic episode nothing you say/do even touches them sad I talked and talked to my brother about how he was in a bad place and that with help it would pass etc etc and he nodded and made all the right noises but in the end he was convinced his cds were talking to him and telling him what to do and as soon as he got the chance he took everything he had and threw it in the river. If you met him now you would have no idea and at the time I couldn't get it either. I had bought him a bike and he thought it was on a list somewhere to be tracked and he threw it away too even though he loved it. It was a serious chemical imbalance.

Spero Wed 17-Jul-13 18:21:03

LtEve, I think you are probably right in that there is a tendency for different standards to apply to men and women on this site and elsewhere but I honestly don't think it is as widespread as you believe on here because I have seen that attitude frequently challenged and I think people are ready to think about their knee jerk responses - which is one of the many positives aout this site.

I completely agree with you aout how hard it is to contemplate the violent death of a child at the hands of an adult supposed to love and protect the child, it is unimaginable to me how anyone could do that.

But I am in my 'right' mind, or at least not currently suffering from any psychosis. But what if I believed my child was possessed by an evil demon and I had to beat out the demon? If I killed my child in the process I would have committed a horrific, wicked act but if I was delusional I would have believed I was trying to save my child and was acting for the best.

That's why the criminal law distinguishes between mens rea and actus reus - your state of mind and the act itself. As a society we don't usually convict someone if they were insane at the time I.e. they didn't understand what they were doing.

And I completely agree with that, I think it is a fundamental principle of a humane society - which is why the 'burn in hell' comment struck such a chord with me.

But we both agree that what happened to those children was awful beyond words and we wish it hadn't happened. I hope there will be a review and lessens learned about why the children were returned so soon after her first suicide attempt - my suicidal client had to wait over a year, with lots of medication and therapy.

Spero Wed 17-Jul-13 18:26:08

I hope your brother is doing ok now noddy - that's a pretty stark example of just how disordered your thinking can become.

And I am very sorry to hear about your brother LtEve - I can see how that would impact very strongly on your emotional response to violent crime.

So sorry if I have been snippy. We all carry our own tragedies and they do change our responses. I guess all we can do is try to be aware of what is pushing our buttons.

noddyholder Wed 17-Jul-13 18:38:14

He is a lot better but will always struggle a bit I think Thanks smile

LtEveDallas Wed 17-Jul-13 19:01:03

It's all good Spero. No worries smile.

Losing my bro changed my whole family, and wrecked a number of other lives. I cannot help but react. I remember how it was before, and have a tendency to see it in rosé coloured glasses I suppose. My brother had an awful lot of problems, MH issues too, but he had the chance to change taken away from him by one man (and the bastard was only done for manslaughter- served less than 3 years, because he 'didn't mean it' and was 'devastated')

It makes me angry, but holding on to the anger is better for me. SIL forgave - I can't. Her way is probably healthier.

noddyholder Wed 17-Jul-13 20:09:48

That is sad for you. Forgiving is all about you though not the awful person who took his life. It doesn't mean you accept what he did just that you stop it destroying you like it did him. I have had to do this which I won't go into here but it changed everything and I was free xx

Spero Wed 17-Jul-13 20:12:10

There is a good quote 'letting go is not getting rid of. Letting go is letting be'.

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