Mandela critically ill

(92 Posts)
janey68 Sun 23-Jun-13 21:11:50

Not unexpected but nevertheless sad.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23024836

DialMforMummy Sun 23-Jun-13 21:13:29

Very sad.

janey68 Sun 23-Jun-13 21:14:23

will try to link it this time

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23024836

sassytheFIRST Sun 23-Jun-13 21:17:49

It is sad and South Africa will be heartbroken when he dies... But I do think there comes a point when people have to be let go of and allowed to slip away.

Obv don't know if this is the case here but I do hope this great man is being treated with dignity and compassion as well as being given the best medical care iykwim.

Jinsei Sun 23-Jun-13 21:17:56

Sad. sad

meditrina Sun 23-Jun-13 21:21:02

He is a very old man, who has been ill a number of times recently.

It is, sadly, no surprise that the illnesses are becoming more frequent and more severe and I think the nation understands this means his life may be drawing to an end.

One hopes he is at peace.

LEMisdisappointed Sun 23-Jun-13 21:25:33

A great man - that is all i can think of to say

Phoebe47 Sun 23-Jun-13 21:25:45

A remarkable man able to forgive those who treated him and other black people so badly. It is a miracle he has survived to the age he is now given the hard life he lived as a much younger man and his long time in prison. May god bless him.

ExcuseTypos Sun 23-Jun-13 22:21:40

sad

Such a wonderful man, without an ounce of bitterness about what happened to him.

The world needs more people like him.

Snazzywaitingforsummer Sun 23-Jun-13 22:23:09

A pity to lose someone who is such a major figure but he is 94 and has been in poor health for a while. Hoping he is peaceful and surrounded by love.

HarumScarum Sun 23-Jun-13 22:23:35

Very sad indeed. What a wonderful person and what an amazing legacy to have left behind. I think he is kind of the modern version of a saint, without the religious aspect. I hope he's peaceful and I hope his family are at peace, too.

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance Sun 23-Jun-13 22:51:07

He's an extraordinary human being and one that it's especially hard to lose, for many reasons. sad The world needs more people with his kind of spirit.

DrinkFeckArseGirls Sun 23-Jun-13 22:57:25

Well, he wasn't going to live for ever. He is a very old man, it's not like his life was cut in half.

HarumScarum Sun 23-Jun-13 23:09:29

Um, his life was absolutely cut in half. He was in prison for nearly 30 years for no sensible reason. And he was still able to try to forgive the people who put him there.

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance Sun 23-Jun-13 23:15:50

Quite Harum

ChippingInWiredOnCoffee Sun 23-Jun-13 23:19:25

Well said Harum.

We all know he's an elderly man now, in failing health, but it will still be a great loss and very sad when he dies - a real one of a kind that man! I hope when the time comes it is peaceful for him and he's surrounded by his loved ones.

DrinkFeckArseGirls Sun 23-Jun-13 23:33:57

It just sounds like people want him to go on for them and not for him. He mist be really tired, well he is in critical state. Surely better for him to go. I'm not questioning who he is and what he!s achieved.

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance Sun 23-Jun-13 23:38:18

I disagree that people want him to go on for them. I think people understand that he is old but will regret his inevitable death when it happens. I also think your post of 22:57 was a bit 'off' tbh.

It's sad. But he's 94. He's going to die one day, as is everyone else. When anyone dies it's sad, but he's so important and crucial to SA history and equality in that country. I hope when he eventually dies, soon or in the future, it's peaceful.

GW297 Mon 24-Jun-13 00:23:38

Thoughts are with his family.

Monty27 Mon 24-Jun-13 00:26:36

Drink he was incaretated for long enough wasn't he? WTF? angry

amazingmumof6 Mon 24-Jun-13 00:42:15

watch "Invictus"

timidviper Mon 24-Jun-13 00:43:23

Harum He wasn't in jail "for no sensible reason". He was in jail for authorising the planting of an ANC bomb which killed and injured innocent civilians. He was offered early release if he renounced violence and refused so remained in jail years longer. Now I agree the regime was abhorrent and that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Mandela fought against apartheid and to claim there was no reason is to trivialise what he stood for.

He has been a great figure in African politics and, in recent years a great advocate for peace and will be sadly missed when his time comes.

EvenEducatedFleasDoIt Mon 24-Jun-13 01:29:21

timidviper - could you elaborate on the " He was in jail for authorising the planting of an ANC bomb which killed and injured innocent civilians."

I ask as this would be illuminating for the rest of the world. I recall he was imprisoned for 'sedition' against a reactionary and racist regime. But you may know better?

Another lung infection sad If they manage to prolong his life, his health won't be very good probably and he probably won't have a good quality of life. I hope he isn't suffering.

timidviper Mon 24-Jun-13 02:13:55

Even I am no expert on this and am wary of a lot of the information online as, even now, there are still strong feelings amongst some so it may not be impartial. From what I understand Mandela did not plant the bombs himself but was a leading figure in setting up the fighting wing of the ANC and, by his own admission, "signed off" approval for bombs to be planted to further their political cause.

If you Google Nelson Mandela bombings you will find numerous sites showing appalling pictures of the carnage caused by the ANC bombing campaign which killed and maimed many yet seems to have been erased from history. This is one . Here is another but, as I say, I am no expert and cannot vouch for the veracity.

I am a great admirer of Mandela and all that he has achieved since his release from prison but he wasn't always so saintly.

EvenEducatedFleasDoIt Mon 24-Jun-13 02:33:07

Well, it's obv you aren't an 'expert'. Yes, Mandela did set up the 'Spear of the Nation' which was the armed wing of the ANC. Unfortunately the brief googling you just have done are from really ill-informed and slanted sites which I am sure the Nationalist Party would like to promote? No, he wasn't 'saintly' and indeed even on release insisted the armed struggle needed to continue, until the govt. were going to recognise the practice of democracy.
No-one in SA erases the bombings from history, but it is now recognised that the black majority were not going to have any access to human treatment by means of discussion or negotiation.

MyBaby1day Mon 24-Jun-13 02:52:34

I am so sad for him sad. I just hope he isn't going through anything or suffering, poor man. He was remarkable.

timidviper Mon 24-Jun-13 02:54:49

Which if you read my posts is exactly what I said Even. In my first post I have pointed out that the apartheid regime was abhorrent and I have said throughout that it is difficult to find information that is objective, rather than partisan but the fact remains that much of this period of South African history is largely unknown to most people in the UK now.

I lived in South Africa through some of the years of horrific brutality and have personally witnessed some of that violence. Maybe, if you are so well informed, you could link to more accurate sites so anyone interested in learning more could do so.

TheRealFellatio Mon 24-Jun-13 05:55:50

I absolutely detest the way the media circle like vultures over someone whose death is imminent. Sometimes there has been so much said about the person while we are all busy anticipating their death that there si barely anything to say upon it actually happening.

He's 94 for crying out loud, let him slip off when he's ready and let's talk about it then. And as for the fact that 'it has emerged that his ambulance broke down on the way to the hospital' being one of the LEAD stories on the news the other day - So??! Do we think the life of a very elderly man succumbing in the most normal way (organ failure/pneumonia) to his final days could have been averted if they'd used a different ambulance? confused

I remember this happening when George Best was on his deathbed as well. God, the poor man was having his eulogies read by various TV Rent-a-Gobs before he'd even drawn his last breath.

peggyblackett Mon 24-Jun-13 06:40:33

Amazing man - it's incredibly sad.

“There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living.” - Nelson Mandela

katydid02 Mon 24-Jun-13 06:45:10

It's sad, but then it is sad when anybody dies - it makes no difference if they are well known/famous/admired by many, it's a sad loss for their family and friends and that is what really matters.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Mon 24-Jun-13 07:25:35

A chance to find peace for Nelson Mandela himself but the world will be dimmer for losing him.

The peace and reconciliation alone was just an amazing way to try to heal a Nation.

vvviola Mon 24-Jun-13 08:15:38

I had the pleasure of holding a door open for him once, and got a lovely smile in return. Made my day. Hell, it made my year and, being an international superspy at the time, I ran into a fair few famous faces

Very sad that he's so ill, but I suppose it really is to be expected at his age (and the years in prison can't have been good for his health either)

meditrina Mon 24-Jun-13 08:44:12

This morning's update from BBC website.

It quotes a senior official saying that South Africans should not hold out "false hopes" and I think this suggests a final illness.

expatinscotland Mon 24-Jun-13 09:26:17

Why is it sad? Everyone has to die. He is very old.

Feminine Mon 24-Jun-13 09:50:49

I agree with expat here.

he is 94.

Meglet Mon 24-Jun-13 10:07:21

I don't like the way the media keep pouncing on him every time he goes to hospital, it almost comes across as being in denial about his age and state of health.

94 is a cracking age, especially after what he has been through and eventually achieved. None of us last forever.

I think it IS sad because so much of his life was wasted in prison for fighting a just cause. But agree that it is inevitable obviously, we all die someday.

DrinkFeckArseGirls Mon 24-Jun-13 10:24:26

Why is it off? hmm He is no dying age 47, is he.

VeganCow Mon 24-Jun-13 10:29:02

Also agree with expat.

FreedomOfTheTess Mon 24-Jun-13 11:22:30

I think it's time to let him go peacefully.

As expat said, he is 94, and considering he spent so much of his life in prison, I think it's quite miraculous he has gone on to live as long as he has.

mumofthemonsters808 Mon 24-Jun-13 11:23:11

Agree with expat.

Mumma2cutiepie Mon 24-Jun-13 12:08:40

Very sad to hear this... Hope you get better soon smile)) or you are able to drift off to end the pain xx

I think what is really sad is how the current ANC is trying to milk this for everything they can.

It is sad for his family and others who love him. It is also sad as he represents so much for so many people. Personally, I am sad and don't want to face facts.

He has been a beacon of light and hope for me for over 35 years. I want him to go when he is ready but I will be probably weep buckets. As with any death of someone you admire, respect or love despite him being 94 I am not ready to let go, and probably never would be. He represents a personal journey for me when so much has changed both in SA and around he world.

Clawdy Mon 24-Jun-13 17:10:45

I remember his release from prison,such an amazing moment. Sadly I read an article recently saying his family are divided and feuding,mainly over the monetary assets linked with the use of the Mandela name. I really hope he is not aware of this,and can die in the peace he so deserves.

joshandjamie Mon 24-Jun-13 17:34:32

I posted this on FB today and I'll post it again here:

This from Nelson Mandela's daughter:
"Other people want to lecture us on how we should behave, and what we should do. Really, it's our dad, it's the children's grandfather. We've never had him in our life for the better part of our years. This is in a sense quality and sacred time for us, and I would expect the world to really back off and leave us alone."

Exactly. Leave the little old man alone with his family. He may be the father of a nation, but he's someones real father and grandfather and they deserve to spend time alone with him without the morbid death watch.

AvonCallingBarksdale Mon 24-Jun-13 18:40:24

Why is it sad? I think it's sad because he's dying, regardless of how old he is. He's a huge figure globally, but also someone's husband/father/grandfather. He's reached a remarkable age considering his time in prison and, yes, everyone has to go, but it's still a sad day IMO.

Chipstick10 Mon 24-Jun-13 19:09:12

I pray he goes quickly to end his suffering.

Boomba Mon 24-Jun-13 20:30:20

Amazing human being
He's 94 94!...brilliant

I hope he is comfortable

I am sure I am not the only one who wishes that he could be allowed to die peacefully, at home, with his loved ones around him. Surely that is what most people would want.
The media circus and minute-by -minute updates from a regiment of press outside the hospital feels like the sad thing to me.

A remarkable man, an amazing leader but also a man who should be allowed to die with dignity

Boomba Tue 25-Jun-13 01:35:31

really?

i dont think he is having his dignity taken from him, by the media interest

it must be hard for his family though

zamantha Tue 25-Jun-13 05:27:48

Such an iconic figure, someone to admire and who we all look back and remember his release ( and what we were doing around that time - groundbreaking) and what a amazing victory and political change that was.

I remember seeing a documentary when I was a teen and Mandela was in prison and Black activists and ordinary people were convinced - " we will only find freedom through the barrel of a gun"

It is a sad world when over and over people can find no other way - I think change would have been a long time coming without violent protest - very sadly as I am a pacifist - but we must remember violence of all sorts was acted out upon innocent black civilians by the state and others.

encyclogirl Tue 25-Jun-13 10:54:09

Is his dignity being compromised though? I'm not surprised the whole world is watching. The whole world loves him.

I don't feel sad that a 94 year old is passing on, but I am extremely moved by this man in every way and feel lucky to have been able to live in his time.

Panonabike Tue 25-Jun-13 11:01:11

Imagine the consequence if he isn't the man who he is, and doesn't do what he does?

wannaBe Tue 25-Jun-13 11:15:57

I don't get all the sad outpourings either tbh. He is 94. Most people don't live that long.

I do however get the notion that people are saying they want him go carry on "for them". This isn't too far from the truth - I grew up in South Africa and there has for a long time been a lot of concern about the stability of the country once he dies. At the moment Mandela represents a peaceful state in SA, but that is by no means assured, and there are lots of concerns over what will happen once he is no longer there.

I also know personally at least two people who were injured in ANC bombings and even when I w=was at school from about 30 years ago we used to have to do bomb drills "just in case," but this part of history is never talked about. One man's terrorist and all that....

EldritchCleavage Tue 25-Jun-13 11:25:24

One man's terrorist?

I personally find taking up arms against an evil regime like apartheid entirely understandable, right and just. People suffered horribly under that regime. Can anyone really be saying that a black person taking up arms against apartheid was not fighting for freedom? Really?

So I embrace his role in founding Spear of the Nation and still find him a towering moral figure.

fancyanamechange Tue 25-Jun-13 11:35:25

what exactly will his legacy be? South Africa is one of the most violent countries in the world, massive poverty, widespread rape of women and children. What did he achieve for his country? That the black leaders get to oppress the people, instead of the white leaders oppressing them?

EldritchCleavage Tue 25-Jun-13 11:39:54

Is it all on Mandela (out of power for a while now)? You don't think the years of apartheid violence and economic imbalance have anything to do with where SA is now?

wannaBe Tue 25-Jun-13 11:44:26

the problem is that this is how much of Africa has evolved. Kenya, South Africa, Zimbabwe... need I say more?

And the proble is that the violence wasn't all just the ANC against the white regime, there was much tribal violence, there was much burning down of schools and libraries in the townships. Necklacings (google it if you don't know what I'm referring to) didn't happen black on white - they happened in the black townships.

It's easy to blame apartheid for the violent state that SA is currently in, but truth is that South Africa is just going the way the rest of Africa was already.

EldritchCleavage Tue 25-Jun-13 11:47:35

just going the way the rest of Africa was already

What, all of it?

Like Ghana, Botswana, Morocco, Benin, Burkina, just off the top of my head?

fancyanamechange Tue 25-Jun-13 11:54:50

So what will his legacy be? That he had a nice smile like Pope John Paul II?

notmydog Tue 25-Jun-13 12:30:32

I have to agree with wannabee and fancy. Madiba's legacy in South Africa is dead. There is currently far too much racism, violence, crime, animosity, complete breakdown in public services and severe corruption. The few golden years when Mandela was President are long gone.

Boomba Tue 25-Jun-13 16:30:24

there might be all those things. But there isnt apartheid

Salbertina Tue 25-Jun-13 16:40:09

Exactly- his legacy is democracy and the ending of apartheid. There is HOPE, at least for the kids. People can travel freely, there is a black majority government, however flawed.

ANC terrorism was warranted in former times and is not whitewashed away. It is extensively covered at the apartheid museum in Johannesburg and is included in the school curriculum.

Africa is hugely diverse and rapidly, rapidly developing at breathtaking speed. For example, Angola has more Portuguese economic refugees than vice versa, Botswana is stable, peaceful and thriving. Mozambique is on the up. The potential here is huge.

Boomba Tue 25-Jun-13 16:54:31

Kenya is democratic

notmydog Tue 25-Jun-13 20:15:21

It's taking a lot for me to have negative thoughts about South Africa. But I can't help feeling an overwhelming sense of disappointment. The 'new South Africa' was a dream coming true for me. I was a young student in Political Science when Mandela got released. I attended one of his first speeches after release, at the UP campus. What he has done for the country cannot ever be measured. He has prevented civil war after Chris Hani's assassination, I don't think too many people realise how close we were to an actual civil war. He was the last great statesman South Africa has seen.

I don't see Mandela's ideals are what the current government has in mind. Many millions of black people are still poor, still suffer indignity, but this time at the hands of their own people. The ANC VERY clearly does not care one single ounce about the wellbeing of its voters. Intimidation and corruption is incredibly rife. Most current politicians are only looking to line their own pockets.

This is why I'm saying Madiba's legacy is dead.

clarinetV2 Tue 25-Jun-13 20:24:57

I hope they let him go peacefully. He's an old man and his life's achievements are truly remarkable. But I'll be very sad when it happens, partly because of what he stands for (freedom and justice) and partly because supporting the ANC was a defining part of my youth and the day of his release one of the days I will never forget, when the world looked brighter. For much of the 80s when I was campaigning we seriously thought he would rot and die in prison even while we campaigned for his release. This is said without romanticising what he did. I don't think MK (Spear of the Nation) should be airbrushed out of the picture and Mandela painted as some non-violent saint - he was a realistic fighter for freedom and justice, and in the final instance he was prepared to resort to armed struggle. That happened and although I don't think it should be glorified, we should remember the struggle as it was. But in his ability to forgive those who imprisoned him and move on without bitterness, and his determination to convert armed struggle to political struggle at every opportunity, he was truly an inspiration. Now's his time to go, and I wish him the very best.

Salbertina Tue 25-Jun-13 20:27:34

I see what you're saying then- you mean currently, as rests with ANC gov? To a large extent i agree, but am more hopeful in medium term. I think SA is muddling through lots of issues and it is a messy, time-consuming and unwieldy process. I do think MAdiba's legacy lives on despite this current mess. Where is the country without hope?

wannaBe Tue 25-Jun-13 21:40:35

I think that SA will go the same way as Zimbabwe tbh.

There is lots of conspiracy out there that he is already dead and has been for a long time! hmm

notmydog Tue 25-Jun-13 23:07:29

Lets hope not wannabe sad
I've always refused to believe that SA will go the same way as Zimbabwe.
I'm back in the UK now after 6 years in SA. I couldn't justify exposing my daughter to the ridiculous levels of violent crime and ever present thread of rape anymore.

Salbertina Wed 26-Jun-13 06:11:20

Well, i live here. I do not believe a Zim situation will happen for all sorts of reasons.

conorsrockers Wed 26-Jun-13 06:27:50

What are those reasons Salbertina? I'm genuinely interested. I have family in SA and Zim and just booked flights to go see them with the kids soon. Everyone thinks I'm bonkers! shock

Cinnamom Wed 26-Jun-13 07:00:50

Salbertina I do live here (I was born in Zimbabwe and moved to SA in 1979). I DO believe we are going the same way as Zim. Unless you live in a different SA to me.

Salbertina Wed 26-Jun-13 07:05:50

Well i probably live in a different part and obv experience a different life as am a different person .. So of course, matter of opinion. I am no apologist for Zuma and his cronies either.
Back to Mandela anyone?

Boomba Wed 26-Jun-13 09:03:12

I'm sure its different from a white and a black perspective too. And poor and rich

Salbertina Wed 26-Jun-13 13:21:21

Cinnamom- as you've lived in SA since the 70s, you doubtless will have experienced huge change... Also in your personal standard living, I'm guessing, which for most white people has fallen dramatically in real terms since the end of apartheid. But this is democracy, yes, it's corrupt, muddled and inefficient but a damn sight better for the vast majority than under apartheid!

I hear often- always from white friends- how this country is "going to the dogs" and feel incensed! Of course their apartheid privileges have ceased, that is fair and proper. Their incredible advantages- education, access to the bank of mum and dad and inherited wealth - live on and enable them to secure that bond on a nice 5-bed, 3-bath in a naice area angry Many whites here still live an unbelievably privileged life, fair dues if this feels on borrowed time!

Cinnamom Wed 26-Jun-13 20:25:42

Salbertina I cannot speak for white South Africans. Quite telling that you have assumed that I am white, which I am not. By you saying that we are not heading for Zim, I will assume you are white and live in the suburbs so dont see and feel what the majority do. Life in SA is heading the same way as Zim for the majority of people.

Cinnamom Wed 26-Jun-13 20:27:22

Do you go to private hospitals or government hospitals? Private schools or rural government schools? If you have not sat at Joburg Gen on a friday night, you have no idea.

Salbertina Wed 26-Jun-13 20:39:49

I have plenty of an idea, thank you, i live here!

Apologies for assuming you were white, had presumed so based on what you said, my mistake. Am truly sad that as a non-white person you're not more hopeful about the future, but fair enough.

Boomba Wed 26-Jun-13 22:10:02

cinnamom are you a Black African?

Cinnamom Thu 27-Jun-13 07:45:45

Yes Boomba I am a black South African.

It is quite insulting that you assume what us non-white people should or shouldnt be feeling. Why assume that because I am black that I should be hopeful? We have Zuma as a president at the moment and I can tell you, I am not happy about it either. The talk at the moment, especially by the younger generation is that Malema is the answer. Sadly, education is lacking and poverty is doing the thinking.

You should take a trip into Zanspruit or even Alex and see for yourself and feel the hopelessness.

Cinnamom Thu 27-Jun-13 07:47:42

I do think this thread is for Madiba and it should go back to that.

Salbertina Thu 27-Jun-13 08:10:13

My intention isn't to insult, Cinnamon- up to you how you take my opinion, for that is what it is. Just as you have yours. No need to attack me for mine. A good (black) friend of mine also hates Zuma (who doesn't?) but sees him as a lesser evil than former apartheid governments. Why exactly do you think SA is going the way of Zim?

I have been to Alex and to similar townships/informal settlements in PE and CT, i work in one also, i do know what you're talking about, it is shocking how very little the ANC has delivered on its promises esp in regard to housing.

Agree, back to Madiba is a good idea.

Salbertina Thu 27-Jun-13 08:18:20

Interesting to wonder whether Mandela would himself join the ANC as it currently stands with a weak leader lacking the full support/respect of the electorate. The lack of a decent opposition to challenge and question the gov is a major problem and enables the ANC to be complacent. Here's hoping that Agang grows and gets some popular support.

meditrina Thu 27-Jun-13 12:01:49

I've just seen on the news that there are huge crowds outside the hospital today, and they're singing the old protest songs in his honour. I wonder if he can hear them?

"And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest"

Salbertina Thu 27-Jun-13 13:12:11

Ah, thats nice, be good if he can hear.
Zuma cancelled overseas trip and Obama on his way here tho not to visit Mandela

They do say that your hearing is the last sense to go so if hes on that side of the hospital then he might hear, which would be nice.

ShamTech (MNHQ) Fri 05-Jul-13 18:38:40

I've been in South Africa since 2000 and am just about to move back to UK. Was just saying to my girlfriend last night that there are not many heroes left in the world that I look up to. Mandela was definitely one of them. Would love to go to his funeral when it eventually happens, but sadly the thought of being outside in a crowd in a major city in SA is just too frightening, but who knows it may all happen without any incident - I sincerely hope so.

EdithWeston Thu 05-Dec-13 21:44:09

Thought I'd bump this - Zuma "making an important announcement" prett much now.

EdithWeston Thu 05-Dec-13 21:45:35

Zuma confirms death of Nelson Mandela

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