4 year old starved to death by his parents

(307 Posts)
SquidgyMummy Tue 04-Jun-13 19:53:29

Horrendous Story

What i can't understand is why all the people who could have helped him: Teachers, school nurse, doctors etc could not see he was being mistreated. My 2 1/ year old weighs more than that poor child when he died.
I am just sickened by his needless death and the hand wringing "if only's" by the other adults who should have protected him

Hrrrm Tue 04-Jun-13 19:55:41

<Daily Mail warning>

Awful story.

So sad sad

RoooneyMara Tue 04-Jun-13 19:57:57

unbelievable. poor little soul.

libertyflip Tue 04-Jun-13 19:58:23

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Mintyy Tue 04-Jun-13 19:59:58

Yes, hideous parents, awful story. But I am angry that the teacher and ta did not take it further and involve police.

BarbarianMum Tue 04-Jun-13 20:00:59

Oh God, I almost wish I hadn't read that but he deserves his death to be acknowledged, at least.

I don't understand how this could happened. A child gets thinner and thinner and is desperate for food - it's not rocket science.

The case is still going through the courts. We don't know what happened yet. Today's evidence actually makes it clear that the school referred on appropriately and were given an explanation that made sense (albeit of a very rare situation) by the parents. Normal, healthy children come in all shapes and sizes. If you've never seen malnutrition and you're not looking for it you could mistake what you're seeing.

mamalovebird Tue 04-Jun-13 20:04:30

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BarbarianMum Tue 04-Jun-13 20:06:02

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BarbarianMum Tue 04-Jun-13 20:12:20

I'm quite amazed the school took the parents' word about a medical condition - we had to produce doctors letters regarding ds1's allergies.

And I have seen seriously malnorished/starving children and honestly they look nothing like normal ones, even those at the bottom of the growth charts. The only thing I've seen similar here in the west was a friend of mine with anorexia because she was, yes, starving sad.

Snowfedup Tue 04-Jun-13 20:26:01

Finding it hard not to cry about this how how could the school not notice this how how could a teacher/classroom assistant not see - he was eating a dirty pancake and trying to eat play jelly did they not see, could someone not have brought him some food fgs !!!

Id like to think as a teacher if some child was obviously hungry even not even close to this degree that I would bring a bit extra.

Surely if he had no lunch he should have had school dinners I just don't understand.

So so so sad !

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 04-Jun-13 20:29:03


We know that this is an incredibly emotive thread but we'd just like to remind you that this is an ongoing court case and we wouldn't want anything posted here to prejudice the trial in any way.

It's perfectly acceptable to express your sadness or anger, but not OK to assume blame or to post details which are not already in the public domaine.

Many thanks,


Snow - he did have a packed lunch. The teacher specifically referred to that in her evidence.

ToTiredToBeWitty Tue 04-Jun-13 20:39:55

I amazed no one fed him at the school.

Snowfedup Tue 04-Jun-13 20:41:11

Sorry have just read brief article didn't mention that just him stealing classmates lunches.

timtam23 Tue 04-Jun-13 20:55:30

This story made me cry, the poor little boy. What he went through must have been horrendous.

stella1w Tue 04-Jun-13 21:02:20

Don't understand how a child can be compared to a concentration camp victim and more was not done.

DoctorAnge Tue 04-Jun-13 22:29:03

Jesus how could the teachers let this carry on without reporting?!

madaki Wed 05-Jun-13 08:07:11

I thought that the teacher did report it?

AmberLeaf Wed 05-Jun-13 08:14:42

Poor little boy. That is heartbreaking.

I don't understand why social service didn't do more.

AmberLeaf Wed 05-Jun-13 08:15:25

Were they even contacted? they must have been surely?

OnTheNingNangNong Wed 05-Jun-13 08:29:09

That poor boy. sad

EllieArroway Wed 05-Jun-13 08:30:47

I'm really, really upset by this. That poor little lad - stealing a pancake covered in grit out of the bin. He must have felt so desperate and lonely.

Sorry, Northern, but going by the news reports, it wasn't just that he was thin. He was also covered in bruises & his clothes were too small.

EllieArroway Wed 05-Jun-13 08:33:01

Sorry, sorry people - DID NOT mean to imply that wearing clothes too small is a sign of abuse. My DS once spent an entire term in trousers that were too small because I couldn't afford new ones. Just saying - there was more to spot than just being thin.

AudrinaAdare Wed 05-Jun-13 09:17:51

I cried reading the teacher's account too. From what I read he was wearing smaller sized clothes than the other children but that they were hanging off him. Lovely boy. I hope justice is done.

DiamondDoris Wed 05-Jun-13 09:26:02

Yes, being underweight on its own isn't a sign of abuse - poor little thing. My soon to be 7 year old DS is as small as a four year old and his weight is under investigation - he has intolerances so that might be the answer. Doesn't stop me from being paranoid. Thinness is okay as long as it doesn't go hand in hand with bloated stomach, listlessness and extreme hunger.

Poor poor little soul. sad I actually feel terribly sorry for the teachers as well, I am sure they blame themselves for not doing more.

It is hard to know from what is written how far up their referral had gone, although it sounds like there was substantial help offered and declined by the parents.

Poor Daniel.

janey223 Wed 05-Jun-13 10:32:10

I don't understand how the school couldn't have reported this sad

So sad, my 17m weighs more hmm

If you read the report in the mail it clearly had been reported to some extent as an educational welfare officer visited his home. Plus the school nurse. And he had been seen by a paediatrician.

So so sad.

roundtable Wed 05-Jun-13 11:20:30

Am I reading the same article?

It says it was reported more than once by his teacher. It must have been reported on for outside agencies to be involved. It also suggests it was an injury that killed him.

That poor, defenceless innocent. It made me feel physically sick to read that but I don't think pointing fingers at teachers etc at this stage without knowing the facts is helpful.

I hope justice is done.

AmberLeaf Wed 05-Jun-13 12:17:39

It says she went straight to the headteacher. I would expect the head to have refered it to SS. [if the head was the cpo]

Trial is ongoing so I think when/if the head gives evidence we will hear what their actions were.

The EWO would have been visiting due to his poor attendance wouldnt she?

AmberLeaf Wed 05-Jun-13 12:18:38

There is obviously a lot more to come out yet. ie who did what with regards passing on concerns.

HugeLaurie Wed 05-Jun-13 14:00:05

I have just read this story in the newspaper and wish that I hadn't. How must he have felt, going home to his parents each day after school. Home is where children are supposed to feel safe and loved, not starved and beaten. He must have been so frightened and confused. I will never, ever understand the mentality of people who abuse children, particularly when they are the parents of those children.

gymboywalton Wed 05-Jun-13 14:24:58

i only know what happened at school from what i have read in the news but it seems like the teacher and teaching assistant didn't know what to do. I wonder if more child protection training should be in place in schools?
i work in a school and i know that we would have taken more action.

edam Wed 05-Jun-13 14:25:58

Oh good grief, that is so upsetting. Poor little boy. The school, the education welfare officer, the paediatrician - none of them saved him (however well-intentioned they were, they clearly didn't do enough). I do feel sorry for his poor teacher who sounds wracked with guilt and does seem to have tried to raise concerns.

Serious case reviews always say 'lessons will be learned' but we keep seeing cases with similar features and similar failures - this sounds horribly like a case we were told about when I did safeguarding training at ds's school.

handcream Wed 05-Jun-13 19:03:52

What a very upsetting story. Why do people do this to a child? I realise that the case is ongoing so I guess lets see what happens.

FWIW - my DM always brings a loaf of bread into the school she volunteers for (retired years ago) for the children whose parents cannot be bothered to get out of bed to give them breakfast... I think they should hang their heads in shame. What is the point of having children if you cannot be bothered to look after them.

handcream Wed 05-Jun-13 19:09:28

Lets hope whatever the outcome of the case - whoever is found guility will rot in jail FOREVER. This case wasnt about lashing out in anger once, it went on and on and on....

mymatemax Wed 05-Jun-13 19:11:23

poor, poor little boy.

YoniBottsBumgina Wed 05-Jun-13 19:21:23

I didn't read the Daily Mail website but on the Coventry Telegraph site they have text messages which were allegedly sent between the "parents". Absolutely sickening, the poor child.

This is the CT link if people want to avoid the daily mail.

Pan Wed 05-Jun-13 19:31:19

This report really really upsets and angers me. Society at large just doesn't seem to get the message that children are different to adults.

I was a Safeguarding children rep on a LA for a couple of years recently,and I can say honestly this would not have happened in any of our schools. The staff with S/guarding-specific responsibilities were too well prepared and knew exactly what to do. We have massive institutions designed to not let this happen, well-paid and allegedly aware chiefs. Care of little ones is all our responsibility, esp when the primary care-givers aren't up to the v demanding task.
If I hear the words 'lessons will be learned' from the SCR, I'll sink inside.

Feenie Wed 05-Jun-13 19:49:33

Isn't this exactly the same as a situation another poor mite - Lauren Wright - went through some years ago? They used the case as an example in our CP training of how this should never, ever happen again. What the hell has gone wrong this time that nearly the exact scenario can occur? Poor, poor child. sad sad

Oh God, I really wish I hadn't read that link to the Coventry article. Those text messages are absolutely horrendous. That poor poor boy sad

Feenie - my school also had the Lauren Wright case in our CP training.

We were told basically, if any concerns whatsoever, report, report, report.

Pan Wed 05-Jun-13 19:58:03

oh it goes back decades, doesn't it? A 'learning' from the Jasmine Beckford case mid 80's was about not seeing the adults as the 'client' and relegating the needs of the child. At root children are being shoe-horned into a world driven by adult needs, be those personal or professional.
At the mo in my office we have a 16 yo being 'abused' in every way by a 42 yo male. She is a care-leaver, and the authorities say to me 'she's now an adult so back off'. No she isn't. She's a child in an adult's world. It's all so preventable IF some people in authority show some gumption for what is right.
Bla-de-blah. It's utterly tragic.

k2togm1 Wed 05-Jun-13 20:11:58

Omg those texts!! I really don't understand how these things are still allowed to happen! I am only a peripatetic teacher and I am trained to spot things, how can the rest of the system be so wrong???

edam Wed 05-Jun-13 20:15:33

Those text messages are sickening. Good grief.

I'm sure the serious case review will say 'lessons will be learned'. Like every other one. And nothing will change. Happens in the NHS all the time, doubt social services or education are much different. I once heard someone at a patient safety conference admit she was the relevant official in the PCT responsible for serious case reviews, and that they really did just sit on a shelf...

We also discussed Lauren Wright during my safeguarding training - she had been a pupil at a school in my borough, although I gather killed after they had moved.

I had hoped things had improved since the days when my father, sister and I were begging SS and the NHS to realise that our mentally-ill ex-Stepmother was in sole charge of our little half-sister, and they needed to think about the child's safety. Mental health professionals refused to speak to my Dad because he was divorced from ex-step - but couldn't see that they had a responsibility for the child's safety, even if they couldn't give my Dad details of the adult's diagnosis or treatment.

Oh Lord, reading that is so distressing, I just don't even know what to say. RIP Daniel, you were so so let down.

timtam23 Wed 05-Jun-13 21:14:44

The BBC news reports on this case are so distressing and I haven't dared look at the text messages link. That poor poor little mite, trying to eat old apple cores out of the classroom bin, and even the dried beans from the play area sad

imaginethat Wed 05-Jun-13 21:23:20

I feel very sad for the teacher's assistant who spent most of her time with Daniel in his last week. She must have felt agonised about being unable to do more for him. I did find myself thinking, could they not just have phoned an ambulance? but from what I read it appeared that proper and sensible responses are pretty much banned by legislation.
I did also think that the teacher's obvious care and affection for Daniel was probably the one drop of light in his little life.

I have just read the Cov. Telegraph report. I feel sick. That poor baby.

Chippychop Wed 05-Jun-13 22:55:44

I'm not reading the report. I know enough by what's been discussed on here. How truly awfully heart breaks for the little tot.lets all try not to let this happen. I hope his parents rot in hell

KrazyKurls Wed 05-Jun-13 23:04:26

That poor wee soul has been let down by so many, I could not do the teachers job my heart would break for them.

May he rest in peace.

chocolatespiders Wed 05-Jun-13 23:22:28

Absolutely heartbreaking > that is all..... RIP Gorgeous boy

ArtemisiaGentileschisThumb Thu 06-Jun-13 11:34:39

I can't stop thinking about this since I read it yesterday. I'm so sad and angry for that poor, lovely little boy.

RoooneyMara Thu 06-Jun-13 19:18:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

nettle1 Sat 08-Jun-13 10:01:03

I have cried and cried since reading this. That darling boy still manages a coy smile in his photo despite the terrible trauma he suffered on a daily basis. Enough of making excuses for the teachers etc. They all had a duty if care to this child. They were all responsible for his safety and well being and they could have done more. Ewo should do unannounced visits in cases such as this but tge regulations prevent them there is a fear child is at risk of imminent harm which clearly the school didn't think that there was. Im heartbroken for this child and what he suffered at the hands of those monsters. Hope they rot in hell in prison for the rest of their live s. Probably they'll be out in no time though

Feenie Sat 08-Jun-13 10:26:52

which clearly the school didn't think that there was

I would wait until we know the full facts - that isn't the impression I got. As far as I can see, the teacher was recording incidents and was straight into the Head's office on at least one occasion in reaction to one incident. All a school can do then is keep reporting it to the EWO and Social Care - I get the impression this happened.

If I am wrong about that, then the school need to be accountable and should have to take responsibility.

Incidentally, the Head in poor Lauren Wright's case who refused to take on responsibility for Child Protection in her school (she wouldn't be able to do that now), leaving the post vacant, was free to go on to be a Head elsewhere. The NQT who kept flagging up concerns to her never taught again.

Feenie Sat 08-Jun-13 10:30:08

According to this report, the deputy head even rang his GP.

That's Social Care, EWO, his GP......everyone knew. So why the hell didn't anyone act?

chocolatespiders Sat 08-Jun-13 14:56:47

They could have given him some food though sad

When I read they stopped punishing him for taking food shock how must he have felt so desperate for food but then punished at school for taking it. I know they didnt realise how desperate he was but my heart breaks.

Cloverer Sat 08-Jun-13 15:04:52

I've not seen anything to say that they didn't give him food - there are hungry children in every school and teachers often do try to give them extra snacks and milk. And he also brought in a packed lunch. They couldn't let him eat other children's lunches though.

chocolatespiders Sat 08-Jun-13 15:10:49

Did you read what his lunch box consisted of?

I hope I do read that they gave him something to eat... I do realise this is not an isolated incident and have read about teachers having to feed hungry children sad

Feenie Sat 08-Jun-13 15:18:02

They could have given him some food though

I am sure they did. Most teachers have been in this situation, believe it or not sad and we all make sure that the children have something to eat, one way or another.

Feenie Sat 08-Jun-13 15:18:37

but then punished at school for taking it

Not seen that anywhere - are you sure?

Cloverer Sat 08-Jun-13 15:27:12

There are probably children in his class with worse packed lunches than him.

I'm not defending anyone, but I don't think the teacher can take the blame. She probably did give him some extra food, he was bringing some lunch in, she referred her concerns to the Head (and hopefully the Head referred to Social Care). GP, paediatrician were involved.

Undoubtedly there were things that went wrong and lessons to be learned, but also it is very hard to stop a determined parent killing a child.

It seems there are only two ways to view child protection - it's either social workers destroying innocent families, taking children instead of offering support, misinterpreting things, schools and nurseries blowing things out of proportion and over-referring OR uncaring professionals aren't trying hard enough, ignoring child abuse, appeasing parents.

The emphasis at the moment is keeping families together. Unless the situation is really clear cut - a child discloses sexual abuse or obvious violence to an infant - parents will be offered support and guidance and every effort will be made to keep the child at home. The school had concerns in January or February, this boy was murdered in March - that isn't a huge amount of time for medical investigations, social care investigations, support to be put in place etc.

chocolatespiders Sat 08-Jun-13 15:28:11

I know both my parents are teachers... secondary school though.

It was in the DM report from the court. it said they stopped punishing him for taking food....... But if he was taking from over children s lunch boxes then he would be told off. I didn't read he was taking from other children s lunches I read about him eating cores that other children has discarded sad

Going out now but I will see if I can find it again later.

chocolatespiders Sat 08-Jun-13 15:36:01

There are probably children in his class with worse packed lunches than him.

I agree but what are the underlying reasons for this. Financial or using food as a form of torture/abuse.. one of the text messages shown to court read ‘We will deal with him after school. He won’t see grub at all.’

YoniBottsBumgina Sat 08-Jun-13 15:42:37

In one of the reports it said the parents would force him to vomit after school. So giving him food at school would not have saved him.

It is awful that children can slip through the net in this way despite so many people being involved.

Cloverer Sat 08-Jun-13 15:51:19

How can the teacher know though chocolatespiders?

Mumfun Sat 08-Jun-13 22:53:52

still so upset about this too. the parents are pure evil

nettle1 Sun 09-Jun-13 19:55:55

Sorry, but come on...This poor little child weighed 1.5 stone, there was a failure to thrive, his clothes were hanging off him. He was starving and stealing food....He turned up to school on one occasion with two black eyes and on another occasion with bruise marks around his neck! What more evidence is required of abuse and neglect???!!! This child was let down in the worst way possible by the authorities who should have protected him.

edam Sun 09-Jun-13 23:04:02

Cloverer, I don't think that's fair. People expect SS and doctors and teachers and everyone involved in child protection to have some common sense and relevant professional knowledge. To spot the children in trouble who need saving and to know the difference between them and a perfectly normal family. It's like saying it's unreasonable to expect doctors to know the difference between someone who is ill and someone who is well. Yes, it might take some investigation, yes it might take some research, but that's the basic purpose of the job.

nettle1 Sun 09-Jun-13 23:19:01

I fully agree with edam. These people are employed to protect children. They failed miserably to do so and its so sickening. Its too late to cry over this child now. They should have read the signs. Its unforgivable.

RikeBider Sun 09-Jun-13 23:21:36

I feel for the teachers, I'm sure they feel awful for not doing more. I used to run a daycare room in a Sure Start centre, and work in family support, and I have definitely got things wrong - I've been very concerned about one family only for a court to find nothing amiss. I've also had a child very underfed, thin, bruised, broken bones (lots of innocent explanations) and mum has turned it around - but over the course of 6+ months. Even having all the child protection training in the world it's not always an easy call to make. Luckily have not had a situation go the other way.

nettle1 Sun 09-Jun-13 23:22:46

I fully agree with edam. These people are employed to protect children. They failed miserably to do so and its so sickening. Its too late to cry over this child now. They should have read the signs. Its unforgivable.

So sad. My 8mo already weighs over a stone and ds was 3stone last yr at 4yo. Really hits home to me how skinny that poor little boy must have been.

BriansBrain Sun 09-Jun-13 23:41:38

So sad

my mum used to give me extra food to give to a little boy in my class and I never understood why, at the time.

nettle1 Mon 10-Jun-13 12:14:49

Surely its better when seeing these obvious signs to remove the child than give the parents a chance to turn it around and take a risk. Why do they deserve the chance? How is this child centered? It seems as a society we forget that the child is the priority and not appeasement of parents. This was the problem with Baby Peter, god rest his soul, and now Daniel Pelko, and how ever many more children. Surely its better to overreact than risk such horrors?

Moominsarehippos Mon 10-Jun-13 12:34:53

I never cease to be amazed and horrified by stories like this. The parents are to blame - whether due to neglect and cruelty, or ignorance (if the child had a medical condition which was not addressed or bothered about). They were given nutritional tablets for the child which were not even opened. The child had bashes and bruises and the school noticed these. Surely a child with injuries, who went into such decline over a few months would get alarm bells ringing?

I am also surprised that the school did not really push after noticing the boys decline.

There's that old saying 'it take a village to raise a child'. Sadly these days everyone just minds their own business. I realise that this poor child was probably isolated (how many of us would turn a blind eye at a poor mite like this brought over for a play date?), and assume that there wasn't an extended family close by to see what was happening.

Moominsarehippos Mon 10-Jun-13 12:41:24

Just read the local paper report. Just crying. If those text messages are to be believed, I'd just like a few moments alone with those 'parents'.

nettle1 Mon 10-Jun-13 13:22:09

Hear hear

RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief Mon 10-Jun-13 13:48:41

The problem with 'procedures' is that when people have pushed the bit of paper onto the next desk they feel they've done their duty. I fail to see how any teacher or social worker could not notice that a 4 yr old weighs 20 lbs and is skin and bone despite apparently having an uncontrollable appetite.

Feenie Mon 10-Jun-13 18:23:31

They didn't 'not notice'. from what I've read - they alerted everyone they possibly could. But schools do not have the power to remove children - only to refer cases to Social Care.

I've known several children who imo should have been removed from their parents' care - one who was whipped with a metal dog lead, for example. All teachers can do is alert, alert, alert and keep on shouting but what if they are ignored? The deputy head in this case even phoned the GP because they were so worried about his weight. It's difficult to see what else could they have done.

nettle1 Mon 10-Jun-13 20:30:59

The teacher friends of mine I discussed this case with, believe a lot more should have been done. They were horrified. One said that the situation would never have been allowed to deteriorate to those levels without proper intervention at the school she works at.
It seems several referrals were made and nothing much came of them. Re the gp: the child's mother was asked and trusted to bring him to the gp and of course did not do so. What happened after that speaks for itself.

Feenie Mon 10-Jun-13 20:57:08

Then I don't think your teacher friends can have followed the case closely - all the intervention possible from a school has been reported.

I think schools should be allowed to do more. I've seen too many cases in the media and have been in situations where a school has shouted loudly and desperately on several occasions but no one has listened. It's a horrible position to be in sad

chocolatespiders Mon 10-Jun-13 21:59:47

Schools really should be able to do more they are the ones that see the child every week day and are best placed to spot the changes.

Mumfun Tue 11-Jun-13 11:43:25

So so sad. Brians Brain -you had a lovely caring mummy

nettle1 Tue 11-Jun-13 12:56:10

The guidance makes clear reference to the duty to act on any child welfare concerns: “If somebody believes or suspects that a child may be suffering, or is likely to suffer, significant harm then s/he should always refer his or her concerns to the local authority children’s social care services. In addition to social care, the police and the NSPCC have powers to intervene in these circumstances. Did they make a referral to social care? I cannot see any ref to this in the media reports. It is certain that no reports were made to the police. The result was that this child was left to die an appauling death. I appreciate the teachers meant to protect the child, but the evidence is apparent. They did not do enough. If they had, the child would surely have been removed under an Emergency Protection Order.

Feenie Tue 11-Jun-13 13:27:45

Because, nettle1, there is no way staff would stand up in court and give the evidence they have given without many, many referrals, because the defence would have questioned them closely as to why they chose not to refer, and because the headlines the next day, had they not, would all be about the school having chosen not to report.

It is obvious - perhaps more obvious if you've worked in a school and experienced the frustration and anger you feel when the system allows you to do nothing but report.

All this will become clear when there is yet another case review and more promises made, and if I am wrong then I will be the first to condemn the school. But I wouldn't be so quick to jump on them until those facts are clear.

Pixel Tue 11-Jun-13 17:41:22

Do they not have a school nurse any more? Ds's school has one because it's SN but I've also spoken to the nurse at dd's MS comp when I've had concerns so I assumed all schools had a nurse.

nettle1 Tue 11-Jun-13 18:23:53

Feenie I think we will have to agree to differ on this.

Feenie Tue 11-Jun-13 18:33:13

Let's wait for an investigation and hope that if anyone else apart from his mother and stepfather is truly to blame that they are also made to take responsibility.

Feenie Tue 11-Jun-13 18:35:06

No, not all schools have a nurse - they have access to one, but the reports say the deputy head tried to contact them but couldn't, so she bypassed them and spoke to the GP.

EMUZ Tue 11-Jun-13 18:42:29

How could you do that to a child? 2013 and a child has been starved and beaten sad
Rest in peace

nettle1 Tue 11-Jun-13 21:15:15

Reading about this just makes me want to hug my 19 month old tightly and feed her. I read somewhere today that 1 in 10 children actually suffers some form of parental abuse or neglect and that we as a society need to do more to combat this. What is becoming of us as a society with such figures?

M0naLisa Tue 11-Jun-13 21:45:37

It's disgusting. I hope they both rot in hell and get the same treatment. Give them half a sandwich a drink and a bag if crisps then force feed them salt. Bastards.
R.I.P Daniel. Such a gorgeous little boy.

NigellasGuest Wed 12-Jun-13 20:55:24

No point phoning GP about this. Why did Head do that? should have phoned Children's Services and demanded a SW come round to escort child to hospital for a CP medical with a CP paediatrician. Then the child would have been kept in, and the police involved.

Feenie Wed 12-Jun-13 21:00:23

But a school can't 'demand' that. Only Social Care have that power.

The deputy head did that because she couldn't get in touch with the school nurses.

NigellasGuest Wed 12-Jun-13 21:04:09

you can demand that. You have to keep phoning and phoning.
You can demand that as a human being.
I've recently also been on bruising training. No way would bruising round the neck result in anything other than immediate discussion with DSP and then an urgent phone call.
And anyone can make that call if it's an emergency - you don't have to go through the chain of command.

Feenie Wed 12-Jun-13 21:06:33

As a school we have done all of the above - and got precisely nowhere.

edam Wed 12-Jun-13 21:12:34

Nigella, sadly I can believe Feenie all too well.

Feenie, if SS won't react when you believe there is a real threat to a child, would NSPCC help perhaps? Just wondering if a report to them might put extra pressure on SS - I know they would just hand to SS but if it came from two routes... although I appreciate the school did try the GP as well.

NigellasGuest Wed 12-Jun-13 21:12:54

in that case you phone the police.

Feenie Wed 12-Jun-13 21:14:31

Did in the case of the child beaten with a metal dog lead - police referred back to Social Care confused

NigellasGuest Wed 12-Jun-13 21:17:13

sorry I'm talking about this specific case, if a 4 yr old child presented in my classroom with bruises around his or her neck. No brainer. I'm sure Feenie your'e not referring to a case like this one - surely you wouldn't have given up if you had a stituation like this? And you keep on and on and on. I've done this. They threw it back a couple of times as didn't meet the threshold but in the end did a Section 47.
There is also a bruising flowchart you can refer to - should be on your local safeguarding children website.

NigellasGuest Wed 12-Jun-13 21:18:50

I see what you mean, Feenie, about the dog lead...
but at least the child was now on the radar

Feenie Wed 12-Jun-13 21:21:11

I wouldn't give up, no - and we should wait for the case review. But my guess from what's been said already (watching the poor mite foraging for food from the staffroom, for example) is that this school didn't either.

edam Wed 12-Jun-13 21:24:08

I know it's common for teachers to feed children who clearly don't get enough to eat, sadly.

NigellasGuest Wed 12-Jun-13 21:26:58

oh I know you wouldn/t give up Feenie.

Jux Thu 13-Jun-13 20:37:12

Lobotomy and work down the sewers. Cheaper than prison and contributes more to society. Same for that bastard who killed the police officers (and 2 others, and tried to kill 3 more).

Retributive justice, in these hard economic times?

nettle1 Thu 13-Jun-13 21:54:18

I agree nigellasguest. The school should have contacted the police immediately they suspected that this child could have been at risk. In fact I think this is expected of teacher's in Northern Ireland . Teachers are in an unrivalled position to spot signs of abuse and are trained to deal with this. It is absolutely clear that they failed this child having witnessed his condition and allowing him to return home day after day given their reservations. I see no ref whatsoever to the school having contacted the local authority or the police.in fact the teachers there seem to have believed the mothers excuses about this child having an eating disorder for gods sake. What four year old has an eating disorder. The school need to be accountable and accept some of the blame for what happened. It is inconceivable that i would not get up and scream and shout in those circumstances if I felt I wasn't being heard. This child deserved to be protected and he wasn't. They failed him

fromparistoberlin Fri 14-Jun-13 13:50:04

atounded by how everyone seems to blame his teachers, social workers etc, these are the prevalant comments

Yes the system failed - but his bitch mother and bastard stepfather abused, and then killed him

blame them


and heres hoping they get charged, and she gets put in with some vengeful, violent nasty people who fuck her over, time and time again

argh, so upsetting

AmberLeaf Fri 14-Jun-13 13:57:09

Because Paris, they are the ones whos job it is to protect children in that position.

That is why they get the blame. Because he wasn't protected.

Yes, his parents failed him, but so did the system set up to protect him.

*haven't caught up with the reporting of this, so I know no more about what social services involvement was apart from what I knew at my last post days ago.

AmberLeaf Fri 14-Jun-13 14:01:49

Did the CPO at school refer to SS?

fromparistoberlin Fri 14-Jun-13 14:24:40

lets wait until this is all finished in court, seems tastless to disagree when (a) we dont know facts and (b) a child died

my main suprise was the anger/reaction were directed more at SS than his parents

nettle1 Sat 15-Jun-13 11:30:56

I think we all agree that the so called mother and stepfather are evil scum who deserve to suffer agonising deaths. I would like to see the death penalty brought back. Sadly they will never comprehend the callousness and cruelty of what they've done and will never shed a tear for this child. We should use this opportunity to write to our mps to seek a change in how schools react to such situations and the powers individual teachers have to report. I have a friend who has concerns about three children in her classes. Thet never have lunch and are dirty and unwashed. One misses alot of time from school. She reported her concerns but the head said they cannot pursue the parents as they have to be seen to be respecting cultural differences. She is resigning as the school in her view are not safeguarding these children. In most people's minds the school here were utterly deficient in protecting little Daniel.

Lara2 Sat 15-Jun-13 12:10:48

I'm in a situation at the moment - and believe me it isn't the first and won't be the last - where I am literally screaming about a child in my class and the local children's services keep throwing it back at us. They haven't engaged at all. Behind every tragic tale is a teacher who saw the signs right from the beginning and was failed by the agencies who are supposed to deal with the information and concerns.sad

Feenie Sat 15-Jun-13 12:16:14

That's certainly my experience sad

Feenie Sat 15-Jun-13 12:17:48

In most people's minds the school here were utterly deficient in protecting little Daniel.

And I'd support them wholeheartedly if that's what the facts show in the future.
Otherwise, 'most people' are a little premature.

velvetspoon Sat 15-Jun-13 12:32:58

How tragic for that poor little boy that all the people who should have protected and kept him safe failed to do so.

I am not surprised the school were ineffective, in my experience schools completely fail the children who need help whilst harassing and threatening those who don't - I was for example threatened with SS involvement because my DS was picked up late from school and they were unable to contact me. I was told in future I had to be immediately contactable by phone at all times otherwise I would be reported.

Yet in other areas teachers are basically watching a child starve to death.

Feenie Sat 15-Jun-13 12:36:30

But we don't know that - yet.

lets wait until this is all finished in court, seems tastless to disagree when (a) we dont know facts and (b) a child died

Totally agree, Fromparistoberlin - tasteless and ignorant. Wait.

edam Sat 15-Jun-13 12:40:14

Lara, is there no other avenue to get someone to sit up and do something for this child? Police? It sounds incredibly heart-breaking for you and for him or her.

nettle1 Sat 15-Jun-13 22:32:41

Lara. I have several friends who work as local authority solicitors in child protection. Im going to ask if they can suggest anything which might help....you might know more but its worth asking....

nettle1 Sat 15-Jun-13 22:37:07

Lara2 which local authority is that?

nettle1 Sat 15-Jun-13 23:22:03

Before I get a response it look s sensible to refer to the complaints manager at the local authority to see if it can be urgently resolved. If not you should contact the local government ombudsman on an urgent basis. Nspcc and police will refer back to the local authority I imagine. What are the concerns ( if you can say). Don't give up xx

nettle1 Sun 16-Jun-13 09:54:32

Ok. I've had one response. Apparently you can also report that matter to the nspcc. Other than the local authority they can also bring matters to court if there are sufficient grounds for concern. Try doing the above in conjunction.

Ledkr Sun 16-Jun-13 10:05:29

Im a sw and frequently try to escalate cases which I believe to be CP but am constantly told "it doesn't meet the threshold"
I have been made to look like a fool for referring a family who then wrapped the cp social worker around her finger ending up with them complaining about me!
The trouble as I see it is that there is no uniform approach to what is or isn't child abuse/neglect. It comes down to peoples opinions and if they are higher than you your hands are tied.

nettle1 Sun 16-Jun-13 17:45:23

Dear lara2. This is my response She: should be able to confirm the complaints procedure for the LA on their website (everyone's a bit different and so this is the next way to find out). Then if that's not sufficient she can go through the Ombudsman. Get her to make a re referral and see what happens. But she shouldn't delay in reporting to NSPCC.

Please let me know what happens.

Very interesting to see what you say ledkr. It seems there are problems from ever angle. At least there are other options if one route fails xxx

Lara2 Mon 17-Jun-13 21:39:32

nettle1, thanks for the replies. I really can't tell you anything as I'm worried it will identify me or the child. We are having a meeting with the family and someone from CS later this week. I don't hold out much hope to be honest, but will certainly keep your advice to hand. I won't give up, I couldn't live with myself if I did.

nettle1 Tue 18-Jun-13 07:05:28

I understand lara2 and thank you for your response. I didn't anticipate you could provide more information. Hope that you take up the advice of my colleague if it becomes necessary. Can you at least in the vaguest terms let me know if there is a satisfactory outcome or if you do contact the nspcc. Even if you can inbox me. Im new to this forum so not sure how that works. Good luck and im so Glad the child has at least got you as an advocate

nettle1 Thu 20-Jun-13 23:16:51

Please try to visit the Facebook page ' Justice to Daniel Pelka' which has been lovingly put together in memory of this child. It is heartening to read some of the comments

ArtemisiaGentileschisThumb Fri 21-Jun-13 22:38:33

I couldn't find it nettle, do you have a link?

nettle1 Sun 23-Jun-13 10:31:48

The page looks like it is temporarily unavailable. Hopefully this will be back up soon. It appears on google, but sadly the link is not working. Its a beautiful page, very respectable and thoughtfully put together x

insancerre Sun 23-Jun-13 10:43:25

But he wasn't starved to death though, he died of an injury.
It seems the school did all it could do, passing on their concerns to the relevant people.
Nobody could have predicted what happened next.
The only way to have prevented it was to take him into care and budget cuts mean the resources to do this just are not there.

ArtemisiaGentileschisThumb Sun 23-Jun-13 10:46:37

Thanks nettle, I did find it eventually but it's gone this morning, I hope it's only down temporarily, it looked really good with lots of updates about the trial. I hope it wasn't forcibly removed because they were trying to organise a demonstration.

ArtemisiaGentileschisThumb Sun 23-Jun-13 10:53:00
Syork Sun 23-Jun-13 19:20:27

I read about this a couple of weeks ago and just can't stop thinking about this little boy. I have a son in reception and everything we have been doing, making cakes, giving him a bath, just normal stuff, i just keep thinking how sad and scared he must've been. I hope that he had a little love. Just can't understand how it has happened. Still don't understand why more wasn't done. Just keep thinking how alone he must've felt. So sad and sorry.

Syork Sun 23-Jun-13 19:23:57

Sorry - i meant how scared Daniel must've been.

ArtemisiaGentileschisThumb Mon 24-Jun-13 09:17:19

I feel the same syork, I cried and cried over this and can't stop thinking about that poor little boy. It's just awful and I'm so sad he wasn't helped in time. I have a four year old and I just can't imagine doing anything to intentionally hurt him. I suppose it's useless to apply rational thinking to the behaviour of the people who did this though.

Syork Mon 24-Jun-13 09:40:44

I just wish i could give him a hug. He must've wondered why his life was like that compared to other children.

BarbarianMum Mon 24-Jun-13 12:40:04

<<The only way to have prevented it was to take him into care and budget cuts mean the resources to do this just are not there.>>

Says who? I don't remember any referendum asking whether children should be allowed to starve to death rather than <insert large government spending programme here>.

The UK is a rich country. It is not official government policy to allow children to be killed in their own homes. Local authorities should perhaps remember this when allocating resources.

loveisagirlnameddaisy Tue 25-Jun-13 14:15:54

Syork I feel exactly the same way. Just keep asking myself 'why why why' would parents do this to a child. The text messages are just awful. But it's like people who torture animals - they are just wired differently so you cannot apply rational thinking to their actions. They must get some sort of sadistic pleasure out of controlling an innocent being.

FeegleFion Tue 25-Jun-13 14:40:19

How can we even begin to try to imagine what that little boy's day to day life was like?

And how can such evil exist? It's beyond nightmarish and yet it happens and does exist.

My heart is heavy with anger and overwhelming grief for the innocent life that was taken, tortured and which endured the most miserable of existences before being eventually murdered.

That little boy deserved everything we strive to give our own children and it's bloody heartbreaking to think that he never experienced even the most fleeting show of kindness from these two.

What a tragic life and an horrific waste.

May he rest in peaceful dreams.

This has shocked me to the core sad

nettle1 Wed 26-Jun-13 20:14:49

Oh God, FeegleFion, reading what you wrote induced me to tears....unbearable. I cant read any more about this as it took two weeks before I could sleep at night without that little boy's face entering my head and he is still there...

Those brutes and others like them should never walk free as they are a blight on society. Its a paradox that where humans are capable of the most wonderful acts of kindness and have such a propensity for love and sacrifice, there are those whose base existence, their depraved, cruel and sadistic actions cause us to question the point of our existence and just WHY? It just makes no sense. Again, the authorities should have done more and I hope there is a proper enquiry, but I doubt there will be. There are so many children being failed by the authorities. Look at Keanu Williams only last week. Another beautiful little lad, who was cruelly tortured by the mother who was supposed to idolise him. The local authority again failed this child miserably, spotting the most obvious signs.

Lara2 have you managed to get anywhere in your matter?

FeegleFion Wed 26-Jun-13 21:43:18

nettle for that innocent baby's sake, and for others like him, I'm glad my words moved you...

...I just wish they'd never been necessary. sad

chocolatespiders Thu 27-Jun-13 22:36:44

Looks like they close the facebook page at night time- probably to prevent any unwanted comments being left that they cant respond to straight away.

nettle1 Mon 01-Jul-13 22:39:44

to those people who say the school did enough, I hope you are following the reports of the condition of this little boy.....

honey86 Wed 03-Jul-13 22:57:13

i e just posted about this on aibu... i keep getting all tearful when i hear the details.... but im following it cos im waiting to see what their sentence will be. if i was the judge id sentence them to be subjected to the same abuse for the same length of time then death by lethal injection. but sadly i dont have that jurisdiction sad

my heart bleeds for that poor boy. when i eat, i cant help but think about his little hungry face sadsad

this story really has demolished me emotionally sad

Syork Thu 04-Jul-13 09:45:18

I am really struggling with this story - have been tearful for a month and feel so much grief for him, even though i never knew him. It was when i saw his picture, my heart and stomach lurched, even though i live hundreds of miles away. I do have 2 boys, one in reception and everything we do together, i just keep thinking on Daniel and how hard and sad his life was. I can't understand that he was seen by people every day and no one helped him.

redandyellowbits Thu 04-Jul-13 09:50:14

Same - my daughter is in reception and I have been feeling guilty that she is loved and taken care of, when that poor boy wasn't.

I don't know him but live around 40 miles away.

I keep wishing the parents had said they didn't want him and just given him to me to care for. I would have fed and cared for him. Just an appalling way for a small child to suffer and die.

I hope he is at peace now. Poor baby.

honey86 Thu 04-Jul-13 18:48:37

what i dont get is... why daniel? why did he suffer the most? why always him! sad

i got a slap on the wrist once for putting too MUCH in my sons lunch blush

FeegleFion Thu 04-Jul-13 18:54:08

If not this little boy, there is always another child. sad

This is going on, now, and there are children suffering, now.

It's beyond comprehension, but it is going on.

Fortunately, there are people fighting for children and their lives too.

ArtemisiaGentileschisThumb Fri 05-Jul-13 10:41:36

It's just horrendous, I'm following the story closely to see how it pans out but have found it so upsetting. I was comforted in a small way though to find out that he had a brave, wonderful sibling to love and try to care for him where he or she could.

timtam23 Tue 09-Jul-13 20:36:05

From yesterday's/today's reporting, the mother's partner seems to be trying to get out of the murder charge by blaming her, presumably she will in turn try to blame him when she takes the stand herself

Absolutely horrendous details still coming out, I'm trying to follow the case but did have to stop reading the reports for a bit because I was dwelling on them all the time. Poor little boy.

AudrinaAdare Tue 09-Jul-13 23:10:03

The testimony from Daniel's sibling is also absolutely heartbreaking. I hope he or she gets all the help and love that they need. What an astonishingly brave child.

elisa5678 Thu 11-Jul-13 13:14:41

It is very disturbing that we live in a society where the only person able to realise that this child was starving and take the appropriate action : provide him food was another child.

I cannot get my head round the teacher locking the food away from him or asking him to hand the food back if they caught him or explaining to him that eating spoilt food from the bins was wrong without offering him plentiful of food. How could they just wonder he was suffering from an eating disorder without discerning starvation? When you see a homeless ramaging through the dustbins for leftovers do you seriously wonder is this person suffering from an eating disorder? The abusers parents must have been laughing to hear that the boy was punished or saw the food being locked away.

Why did the teachers not call an ambulance when they noticed that his mouth was dry when he tried to eat the dry kidney bean? This is a sign of serious dehydratation. Obviously primary school teachers do need some serious training in child protection. I am starting to wonder how safe my own 4 years old child is at school and how able the school would be to deal in case of a vital emergency.

I cannot understand either how could the pediatrician just believe the parents that this boy was suffering from a worm infestation. Seriously he would not be that underweight off the chart if it had been the case. And surely he should have asked to see the boy again every week to check that he was regaining weight.

This child protection system is failing. What the point of those referral to social services when all it can achieve is a visit to the home of the abusers asking them to tell their web of lies to cover up the facts? This case should call for a reform of the system to allow people in contact with a child in danger to take action themselves take the child to A&E etc...

nettle1 Thu 11-Jul-13 22:56:48

Elisa you are so right. Very very well said. ... written tp my mp requesting she attend this : www.actionforchildren.org.uk/campaigns/tackling-child-neglect/changing-the-law
There are too many people in child protection saying they cant take action for this reason and the other and a lack of gumption and courage by some to speak out for children. This is their job This needs to change. Im so tired of hearing all of the excuses
... There is a lack of accountability by some. Its often about passing the buck. Parents needs are also often seemingly prioritised over children's wellbeing, with parents treated as clients or their relationship valued over ensuring that a child is safe and protected from harm

lovemynathy Thu 18-Jul-13 02:13:52

Elisa you just said everything that was in my heart, and I thought it would explode from "not understanding". Those who just watch but don't act as guilty as those who did it....how many children before lessons are learnt?????

fromparistoberlin Fri 19-Jul-13 09:07:14

The teaching assistant involved has since left the school which says volumes. I would bet my bottom dollar that she is pretty traumatised

i just cant get this story out of my head. I know full well atrocities go on every day, ever second. But the fact that neighbours, teachers, doctors did not stop this saddens me so much. This was PREVENTABle

I also cant stop thinking about his siblings, and wonder why just him?

edam Sat 20-Jul-13 19:37:01

fromparis, I think it's not uncommon for evil parents to single out one child to be the victim, while treating other siblings less unkindly. Although I don't imagine they were great parents to Daniel's siblings either, tbh.

AudrinaAdare Sat 20-Jul-13 21:22:33

Scapegoating a child isn't unheard of. I also wonder whether poor Daniel may have had some undiagnosed SN. The number of strangers and family members who have told us that they could cure my DS of his austistic meltdowns is phenomenal. My son wouldn't back down with the entire British army bearing down on him! DH and I have to be the adults when it comes to confrontation and diffuse it rather than escalating it. Stupid and weak and immature people might want to prove a point. I have been told by several professionals that yes my DS would starve if we didn't give him the food he CAN tolerate as opposed to a fussy child who will eat within hours or a day for example. DS is bloody challenging but we can remain patient with his chronic sleeplessness, food refusal, still being in nappies aged six because he is ours, and we adore him and we're not thick or selfish.

fromparistoberlin Sat 20-Jul-13 23:15:57

I thought the same audrina, maybe thats why he was victimised so much by them??

Paula0506 Sun 21-Jul-13 23:29:20

I am deeply saddened and shocked at the cruelty and pain suffered by Daniel Pelka as he starved in full view of his primary school teachers (who also noticed bruises on his body) before he was killed.
I find it utterly incomprehensible that no one helped him. It has been clearly evidenced in court that teachers recognised his lunch box was meagre, that he was eating anything he could forage (including dirty scraps from bins), that he couldn’t keep his hands off other children’s lunches and that he was seriously losing weight so that his clothes hung off him - and yet the only thing they did was to lock up the other children’s food to prevent him from stealing the food he so desperately needed.  
Where was the ‘duty of care’?
What has gone so terribly wrong with our society that this could happen?
Why is this fundamental issue not highlighted more clearly in the court case and in press coverage?
How can we ensure that adults with a duty of care come to the aid of vulnerable children, in this case to the aid of a child who could be seen to be literally struggling to survive?
If ‘duty of care’ is a legal requirement, then where is the accountability? If ‘duty of care’ is not a legal requirement, then it should be - as it is in France and other civilised countries (see below). 
Adults should have a legal obligation as well as a moral obligation to look out for, protect and safeguard the wellbeing of children in their care or sphere.
I am petitioning my MP for change in the law and will be launching a supporting web campaign. Will you stand with me, mumsnet? Will you be speaking out to help protect vulnerable children in the future - will there be justice for Daniel?

Duty of Care appendix notes
Parents have a duty to rescue their minor children. This duty also applies to those acting in loco parentis, such as schools or babysitters
Criminal law [edit]
In some countries, there exists a legal requirement for citizens to assist people in distress, unless doing so would put themselves or others in harm's way. Citizens are often required to, at minimum, call the local emergency number, unless doing so would be harmful, in which case the authorities should be contacted when the harmful situation has been removed. As of 2012, there were such laws in countries, including[1] Albania, Andorra,[24] Argentina,[25] Austria,[26] Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Croatia,[27] Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France,[28] Germany,[29] Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Israel, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland,[30] Portugal, Russia, Serbia, Spain, and Switzerland.
France [edit]
The photographers at the scene of Lady Diana's fatal car accident were investigated for violation of the French law of "non-assistance à personne en danger" (deliberately failing to provide assistance to a person in danger), which can be punished by up to 5 years imprisonment and a fine of up to $100,000.
Anyone who fails to render assistance to a person in danger will be found liable before French Courts (civil and criminal liability). The penalty for this offence in criminal courts is imprisonment and a fine (under article 223–6 of the Criminal Code) while in civil courts judges will order payment of pecuniary compensation to the victims.[31]

AudrinaAdare Mon 22-Jul-13 00:26:19

Great post, Paula.

fromparistoberlin having an autistic child I think about this a lot. I wonder, when people say that there are so many more autistic boys around than ever before whether children like my DS would have been killed in the past when a good smack or three, or broken bones didn't work because people were ignorant of how to cope with non-compliant children otherwise. I am sure that many such children were beaten to death due to toileting, sleeplessness and behaviour issues, or starved because like my DS, they could only tolerate dry bland food and it wasn't give to them.

A father had the right to dispose of his children as he saw fit hmm until quite recently.

Having a non-biologically-related man in the household massively increases the risk-factor. I can just imagine the ignorant fucker needing to assert his masculine authority and not wanting a four-year-old boy to get the better of him with tragic consequences.

fromparistoberlin Mon 22-Jul-13 12:51:37

I dont know. I think what triggered my attention was the comment that his english was not great, there are alot of kids in my DS class that learn english very fast, so it made me think maybe he had some learning difficulties?

Its what loveis says, some people are just not wired like us. Its the same as my friends (very EX) P who locked her in a room and threatended her with an iron.

we fail to comprehend, but there always have been, and always will be people who can easily inflict cruelty

sentancing this week I think

edam Wed 24-Jul-13 23:15:18

Or maybe his rotten mother and horrible excuse for a step-father didn't talk to him very much. Especially not in English. The amount of talking going on in your family makes a huge difference to small children.

Pixel Wed 24-Jul-13 23:41:06

I was thinking that. Hard to learn anything when you spend most of your time shut in a cupboard.

AudrinaAdare Thu 25-Jul-13 00:11:34

I knew a child who thought her name was, "Shut Up". That's what grown-ups called her, she told us. English with English-speaking family. Poor Daniel didn't stand a bloody chance to defend himself.

fromparistoberlin Thu 25-Jul-13 22:09:35

edam, you are probably right sad

edam Thu 25-Jul-13 22:48:25

Audrina, that's chilling. Poor kid. I hope 'she told us' means she got help or got out or something?

I'm a woolly liberal on social issues, I recognise that things are complicated, family dynamics can be incredibly difficult with generations of damaged people yadda yadda yadda... but some behaviour is so cruel even I wonder whether the people involved are monsters.

fromparistoberlin Fri 26-Jul-13 06:29:40

there is a facebook page called "justice for daniel pelka"

Its very touching, there is one lady (maybe a journalist) providing updates on the trail and a sky jounalist is tweeting

I find it veru touchind that after his tragic demise there are people (strangers) that care so passionately

I hope one day his sibling know that there were people that really cared and wanted to see justice done, I think its very important

fromparistoberlin Fri 26-Jul-13 06:29:54

spelling opps

nettle1 Sat 27-Jul-13 23:00:11

Paula0506, I for one would definitely support your campaign. I read on the Justice for Daniel Pelka site (there is an article pertaining to it) that there will be a serious case review into whether the school could have done more for this little boy given new evidence which has come to light during the course of the criminal proceedings.

I have written to my MP about the devastating cases of Daniel Pelka and Keanu Williams and she agrees that more needs to be done to increase the support for children in schools - such as increasing school social sorkers. The NSPCC are looking for volunteers to go into schools as mentors for children, as well. Health Visitor numbers are on the decline and this all has a knock on effect. That being said, it seems clear the school did not do enough for this little boy. As someone said in this thread a lot of "hand wringing and if onlys...." after his tragic demise at the hands of these two monsters. There is not enough media reporting on these issues - the two cases I mention above. Are we becoming more tolerant of these terrible cases after a recent spate of them?

I was sickened to hear that the step father in the Keanu Williams case did not even serve time in prison for his part, convicted only of child cruelty. He got a two year suspended sentence and 100 hours community service. He was there when the child was left to die in a spare room in his house. He eventually dialled 999. Why was he allowed to go free. The bastard!?

Relatives had described how Keanu would often have a soiled nappy, while concerned nursery staff had spoken with his mother about marks on his body.

Mrs Cowley Investigating police officer said: “It is almost inevitable that looking back at the bigger picture, there is something that could have been done differently.”

Mrs Cowley said there had been “a wide number of people who had come into contact with Keanu in his short life”.

WHY oH WHY do we live in a society where people are too complacent or uncaring to speak out for such children. We need to be their voices. They have no-one else but those around them.....once again another child let down. It makes me so angry and sad I could cry.....

Moistenedbint1 Sat 27-Jul-13 23:20:06

Poor wee lad. Heartbreaking. If nothing else, I sincerely hope this case highlights the importance of vigilance. Particularly where the education/medical authority is concerned.

Secretswitch Wed 31-Jul-13 16:34:47

Mother (and I use that term advisedly) and the partner were both found guilty of murder. Prayers for this little baby. Prayers for any child who is abused, lonely, and afraid.

zookeeper Wed 31-Jul-13 17:07:44

Poor poor little Daniel. I hope he is in a better place

dandydorset Wed 31-Jul-13 17:34:39

sentence is in

dandydorset Wed 31-Jul-13 17:39:37

bugger found guilty,apologies

Secretswitch Wed 31-Jul-13 17:49:57

As a social worker I have dealt with many cases of child abuse and neglect. I know evil exists. I know I should be used to stories like this. I just cannot get that helpless little boy out of my mind. The adults around him, failed him.

AudrinaAdare Wed 31-Jul-13 18:01:24

That's exactly what I think when I think about Daniel. How very helpless he was. And of his teacher who spent what was to be his last week with him by her side because she didn't know what else to do. I am so pleased the courts recognised this crime for what it was.

Wereonourway Wed 31-Jul-13 18:10:52

I've just watched the report in the news, I don't think I've ever been moved quite like this by any news story.

I'm so angry, so upset. How can anyone put a child through that.

Poor poor boy

MrButtercat Wed 31-Jul-13 18:21:16

As an ex teacher I just can't get my head round the teacher or the school.At my dc's school it would never have happened.

I'm just staggered.

willowthecat Wed 31-Jul-13 18:32:10

I think many people who don't have experience of the system have a naive belief that referr

willowthecat Wed 31-Jul-13 18:33:38

Ing and contacting other professionals will in some way cause a solution to happen. It won't. This case is wake up call for everyone.

wickeddevil Wed 31-Jul-13 18:36:47

What were said.

So sad. I am so angry too. It could have been so different.

Mumsnet at its best is a campaigning organisation. What can we do, to do our bit to prevent this?

AudrinaAdare Wed 31-Jul-13 19:16:42

What don't you understand about the teacher? I used to teach. I was not able or allowed to follow a child home from school and prevent them from being beaten to death. I could raise concerns. Repeatedly. I also used to provide money and food but that would have lost me my job eventually. Social workers are not able or allowed to do any more than follow procedures either.

The hungry children I taught had close calls due to things like road traffic accidents or drug ingestion. None of them died from starvation but the neglect r.e food was part of the general neglect which almost killed them.

You can't say that something like this couldn't happen in one particular school, there are nation-wide rules to follow, and not complying with set guidelines leaves children more vulnerable to abuse because a case may collapse.

AudrinaAdare Wed 31-Jul-13 19:31:08

I also wonder if something has changed within the legal system since Baby P. No murder convictions there iirc and it was a similar case with plausible lying evil bastards which sadly you can't legislate for.

Vev Wed 31-Jul-13 19:38:27

So, so sad, poor little boy how he must have suffered.

I can't understand how anyone can treat a child so nastily, let alone the child's own mother. They're both so evil and cruel and for some reason her more so for letting him abuse her child and her participation in the abuse.

INeedThatForkOff Wed 31-Jul-13 19:40:29

I am so disturbed by this case. That woman's face provokes feelings of utter, utter contempt. I couldn't keep my hands off her if I met her. I understand that they are both guilty if murder but she was his biological motherland as such is a disgusting piece of shit.

INeedThatForkOff Wed 31-Jul-13 19:40:51


MrButtercat Wed 31-Jul-13 19:45:01

Aud no sorry I don't buy that.Abuse is going on up and down the land as we speak and children don't die or suffer so long in every case.

There are safeguarding policies and procedures in place in every school to stop this kind of thing happening.In many they work.

Going by your last post they may as well be ripped up.

sugarandspite Wed 31-Jul-13 19:58:11

The bit in the paper where it says on his final day before he was killed he was eating dried beans out of the sandpit is just utterly heartbreaking

AudrinaAdare Wed 31-Jul-13 20:01:10

I'm all for safeguarding measures! If they are in place in every school why don't they work in all schools and all cases but would never fail in your child's school? Are you suggesting that individuals were at fault? No wonder there are so many former teachers and social workers.

Beechview Wed 31-Jul-13 20:02:29

I also have been really affected by this story and have cried.
I can't understand such cruelty and especially from the mother. The teacher who spent the week with him - I really feel for her. She's obviously caring and must be so devastated by this.

That poor, poor child.

AudrinaAdare Wed 31-Jul-13 20:06:20

And dead ones. This case has affected me very much and it is another nail in the coffin of my teaching career. I could not live with myself if this happened on my watch even though I would have had to break the law by kidnapping the child in order to prevent it. What did you do for your neglected pupils? What else could have been done?

edam Wed 31-Jul-13 20:19:22

It's really important to get to the bottom of why the authorities failed to save Daniel. Especially why his teacher wasn't taken seriously when she tried, repeatedly it seems, to raise the alarm. Or the response to the school's concerns from social services was so woefully inadequate.

There have been too many cases like this, followed by some kind of inquiry or serious case review, where we are promised 'lessons will be learned'. And they never are. There's always another case where children fall through the net that is supposed to protect them. We need to find out why and how to at least reduce the chances of it happening again.

Vev Wed 31-Jul-13 20:26:08

I suppose it will all come out how many times the authorities tried to help after the trial.

willowthecat Wed 31-Jul-13 20:41:12

I think there is a wider problem with a system that demands haystacks of useless information about parents who 'infringe' safety in a trivial way rather than pursuing serious cases. If the murderers had sent a peanut bar in for Daniel it would raised concerns in a way that visible starvation did not. Only 'extreme' action could have saved this child. If the teacher had phoned head of social services and police daily until action taken maybe things would be different but responsibility is vague and diffused in our society and most assume the system is acting in some way From my perspective it's staggering that the head teacher could seriously have believed that calling the GP about the loss of weight would have led anywhere. Maybe in a novel or a TV show but not real life sadly.

MrButtercat Wed 31-Jul-13 20:43:12

Exactly Willow.

sickofsocalledexperts Wed 31-Jul-13 20:47:29

Apparently the evil pieces-of-shit mum and stepdad told teachers not to feed kid as "he was being treated for a very rare eating disorder". Let us hope the prison system deals with them

bico Wed 31-Jul-13 20:49:53

I agree that this poor child's parents are to blame but what horrifies me most about this case is the safety net that should be in place to protect children from abusive parents clearly didn't exist in this case and apparently doesn't in many of the references from teachers on this thread.

I think that this case demands a wider examination of how referrals are made and what happens. It shouldn't require 'extreme action' from school etc to protect a child.

timtam23 Wed 31-Jul-13 20:51:01

edam that is so true
I read today that the Serious Case Review will be published in September

There is lots about the background to this case that I don't understand, I'm hoping the review will shed some light on why certain decisions were made. Although it is very sad to think back to Baby P, Victoria Climbie etc - the same things are said each time and yet there is always another tragedy.

At least these two individuals were found guilty of Daniel's murder, I had worried that the jury wouldn't be able to agree on a verdict and would "only" find them guilty of the lesser charges

In the end it only took them 4 hours to reach a verdict

Far too late for Daniel of course but I'm sure those cruel people will be facing extremely long minimum terms on their life sentences

Sentencing is on Friday

girliefriend Wed 31-Jul-13 20:56:57

This case is horrific and how a mother could be capable of such cruelty is beyond me.

I was also shocked that he had siblings as hadn't realised that until today, assumed he was an only child. I hope these siblings are being well looked after now.

AudrinaAdare Wed 31-Jul-13 21:08:07

Totally agree, willow. There have been frightening posts on here from a mother of an autistic child doing high-level safeguarding training who was trying to explain that for example, unkempt hair or ill-fitting clothes are completely within the boundaries of normal for children on the spectrum and should not be an automatic red-flag. Her concerns were dismissed.

My DS only eats dry food and not too much of that. When we go out for breakfast he has had milk all night because that's the only protein-rich food he'll tolerate but people think we're cruel as we're tucking into our eggs and bacon because he's nibbling a piece of fried bread.

We also let him play on the phone because he has to do eye-contact and conversation all bloody week at school and it's hard work for him and he's just six years old. I'm relaxing chatting to DH and DD so I let him relax in his own way. But to an outsider it looks terrible!

I wonder how many concerns about children with known S.N who are behaving and being treated appropriately and lovingly are clogging up the system?

ihategeorgeosborne Wed 31-Jul-13 21:08:10

Just heard it on the news and I cried like a baby. I just can't imagine anyone doing that to their children. I can't bear to think about what the poor boy must have gone through in his short little life. God rest his soul sad

MrButtercat Wed 31-Jul-13 21:10:12

God just seen the body map on the news,he must have ticked every box on any safeguarding signs of abuse list.I just don't get it.

glitterz Wed 31-Jul-13 21:51:21

I have zero sympathy for the teacher. She was the only responsible adult who had regular contact with Daniel, daily when he attended school. Yes, she followed procedures and reported it, but when she saw that nothing was happening, surely she could have reported it anonymously to social services or the police? The poor child came to school with black eyes and looked like a bag of bones, he must have felt like no-one cared for him.

She may have did the right thing as a teacher, but failed as an individual.

bico Wed 31-Jul-13 22:01:33

Will the serious case review consider how the various agencies interacted and work out where the failings were or will it just be an examination of the social services element?

Oblomov Wed 31-Jul-13 22:06:46

The head was involved, the ta noticed it. A pead was involved. And yet this still happened. Beggars belief.

AudrinaAdare Wed 31-Jul-13 22:11:56

How do you know the teacher didn't report it anonymously? You don't because by its very nature, you can't. I've done it.

So other than an additional phone call what was she expected to do other than kidnapping the child?

Go to the press? Illegal and rightly so.

What else should she have done? I really mean this seriously because I resigned from a job when a pupil was raped on my watch ie she was in a class of twenty eight with me every day. I had no idea until she presented with an std aged seven and even then the parents, the doctor, the police, S.S, the H.T all knew before I did.

It was the final straw.

Bue Wed 31-Jul-13 22:12:17

I just saw this on the BBC 10 o clock news. They ended with a picture of this beautiful little boy and I burst into tears sad

When I taught the head teacher was in charge of CP, we did have a very serious case and our HT kept the child after school with her in her office whilst she rang the police and SS, the parent was told when they came to pick the child up from school that they could not take them.

I thought that was still standard procedure tbh.

This case is just so shocking, so harrowing to read.

BewleyBear Wed 31-Jul-13 22:14:50

Poor child, heartbreaking to think what he went through, with nobody to look out for him. So so sad.

MrButtercat Wed 31-Jul-13 22:20:29

One step we've had similar.

A lesser example I and the head also held onto a child whose father was drunk at pick up several times.

Don't get by contrast how a child making every poss alarm bell go off with bruises can be just handed over.

Also re the eating disorder excuse for not feeding and weight loss,did nobody ask for a GPs note?I've had to provide one just to enable my underweight son to have crackers at playtime.

blueberryupsidedown Wed 31-Jul-13 22:27:05

Just watched channel4 news and they said that the family had home visits from a 'school health support worker' or nurse I'm not sure, but as far as I can see it was not a social worker, although social services were involved following a visit to hospital for broken arm. Again, at any one point, daja vu anyone, social services were involved, GP, community paediatrician, the school support staff and teacher/headteacher.
Timeline here:

AudrinaAdare Wed 31-Jul-13 22:27:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

edam Wed 31-Jul-13 22:35:37

The most heart-breaking evidence at the trial was from his sibling, who had tried to find food for Daniel and had tried to protect him and comfort him. A little kid, also left in the hands of two abusers, had taken on far more responsibility than all the adults who should have protected Daniel. I just hope the sibling(s) are safe and happy now and get support in somehow coping with what happened to them and their brother.

His poor teacher (or TA, I'm not sure) gave harrowing evidence at the trial. The poor woman was distraught. She had tried to raise the alarm, I think repeatedly, and had been kind to Daniel. I think it said she no longer works in schools - it sounded as if she was too traumatised. I got the impression that she had tried to get help for Daniel but had been fobbed off or persuaded by those who should have taken the case on that the right procedures were being followed.

I was wondering if it was just my old HT MrButter although i was led to believe this is the standard practice so good to know other schools did as well which is why I don't understand what had happened at Daniels school. Surely the HT was head of CP in the school?

The teacher will tell the HT who has the power to act, or so I thought, it's not for the teacher to inform the relevant agencies. Or has it changed?

Audrina the things you are saying about the little girl are heart breaking and harrowing and I am genuinely sorry for the trauma she went through and the fact that you witnessed it.....

but can you ask for these posts to be deleted. You've given quite a bit of information about her and I would be worried about any IRL identification going on.

TabithaStephens Wed 31-Jul-13 22:58:24

Social workers in this country just don't seem to care, they hide behind rules and regulations and when something goes wrong, mouth platitudes but nothing ever seems to change.

AudrinaAdare Wed 31-Jul-13 23:07:03

It was a number of years ago, over a decade, and the situation is not uncommon sadly but I will ask HQ.

edam Wed 31-Jul-13 23:13:54

I just saw somewhere else that apparently the mother had managed to con a hospital doctor into thinking Daniel had an eating disorder. Rather than being a victim of abuse. Which goes some way to explaining why the school were inhibited from doing more.

That hospital doctor's actions and diagnosis need to be very seriously examined by the serious case review.

AudrinaAdare Wed 31-Jul-13 23:22:50

I'd like to know who this highly-paid professional was, given that their opinion was given enough credence to override the concerns of the lowly people who saw Daniel frequently.

timtam23 Wed 31-Jul-13 23:28:06

The additional details coming out since the verdicts are even more harrowing (if that were possible). That poor poor little boy. The comments from the CPS and the police indicate that they were really affected by this case & absolutely horrified by what was done to Daniel, which to me says a lot, as I'd imagine that they're accustomed to seeing pretty awful things. Very traumatic for the jurors too I expect - the cruelty and his injuries are not easily forgotten.

I'm not trying to remove the post to take away the magnitude of what happened to the little girl Audrina. ISWYM about the time scale though. Unlikely anyone would see it and think "Oh I know that girl" but you can't tell.

Many years ago I had to report a little girl with suspicious 'marks' on her clothing.
No idea what happened though (it was all taken out of my hands and dealt with) but it chokes me even now to think of it.

AudrinaAdare Wed 31-Jul-13 23:40:38

70 I think it could be removed and people would get the gist without any details. I've asked HQ anyway. Sorry you have beem in a similar position.

hollyisalovelyname Thu 01-Aug-13 08:35:57

I can't read the reports. That poor little boy...... and so many people would have loved to have given him love and kindness. What's wrong with the world. I despair.��

LaVolcan Thu 01-Aug-13 11:07:29

Yet again there is a stepfather involved. How many times is this the case?

Note - I am not saying that all stepfathers are bad - some are excellent fathers to their step children.

Nancy66 Thu 01-Aug-13 11:15:12

They're not 'step fathers' though - hate the misuse of that word. They are just the skanky mother's latest fuck.

I dont think its about a `step father` being involved in this case, clearly this was both the mother and boyfriend being equally as involved and evil from what I can see, and this little boy being let down by those around him.

And I agree with Nancy, the media should not give these men the title of `step father` they are not.

LaVolcan Thu 01-Aug-13 12:04:54

the skanky mother's latest fuck.

OK, I was just going by what was reported. The women always seem to be unable to do anything about it.

glitterz Thu 01-Aug-13 12:12:23

Audrina – the teacher did not report this anonymously as she would have surely mentioned it when she was in court?

Of course she couldn’t kidnap the child, but she and the school should have called the police when he came to school with black eyes and pressure mark bruises on his neck. Even if they believed the lies on the eating disorder, they should have put two and two and together and realised that he was being abused. If I were the teacher/headtecher, I would have held on to that dear boy with all my strength and not have let his wicked mother take him home for more suspected abuse.

AudrinaAdare Thu 01-Aug-13 13:04:05

That's true, glitterz.

And with the injuries you describe, how on earth were they explained? Sibling blamed perhaps? That is often the case and is sometimes true. I'd have made the police call I think...

MissStrawberry Thu 01-Aug-13 18:40:16

It won't be long and there will be more hand wringing and saying how it mustn't happen again, lessons must be learned etc etc etc.

If the powers that be still aren't getting it after all these poor children have already died then when will they?

It just leaves me speechless that no one ever seems to care enough to push that little bit further to check on a child they are worried about and yet again another child dies an horrific death.

The whole system needs a massive overhaul with people with real life experience advising and not just someone who has a degree but with no actual experience of life, abuse, cruelty, the ways that abusers think and act and the right way to interview children. Just beggars believe.

MissStrawberry Thu 01-Aug-13 18:45:16

"It is hard to know from what is written how far up their referral had gone, ^although it sounds like there was substantial help offered and declined by the parents.^"

Well of course SconeInSixtySeconds seeing as they were abusing him.

evie190 Thu 01-Aug-13 19:24:25

I am gobsmacked in relation to two remarks just seen "Northern Lurker" suggests we must wait for the Court findings - weren't the texts on those vicious creatures enough evidence? What about the child's emaciated body, bruising, constant stealing from bins and elsewhere like some little homeless tramp -
Then there's Cloverer - "Seen worse packed lunches" Are these individuals human beings or automatums?
I suggest this whole thing was pure cowardice -
I was censored back in the late '80s - Living in a semi detached property - too ill to work or leave the house - overhearing definite marital disharmony - then a blow overheard through the party wall and the toddler's immediate crying - I reported it to social services -
I was unaware of what happens (being newly divorced) to those who report a police officer (the father newly promoted to CID)
I'm sure you can imagine the result -
Social services handled it badly - told me they'd only come and support me if I left my house! - hand the case back to police welfare who were onto me like a ton of bricks -
Not long after I was treated to an ever increasing harassment campaign - the ex's cousin being high up in police transport division
panda cars at my door late at night suggesting my report was purely vindictive - in fact it wasn't
The story eventually was twisted in that I was accused by police welfare detective Supt Jolly of reporting the thing as "child sexual abuse"
As I said to him "I'm not sure how one deduces sexual abuse through the party wall!!"
At the same time I was being harassed by the ex's relatives closeby - I was unaware while visiting one of the ex's brothers at HMP Norwich - what two broken arms meant - it was explained eventually that he'd abused ALL three baby daughters - It took a long time for me to work out what all the hostility was actually about - the ex's aunt living two doors away and the cousin's wife just down the road were driving a hate campaign in order to discredit me before the story of their family actually landed on their doorstep-
I did the right thing - I would do it again - that little girl was being picked on and ignored by the mother because the father favoured her
I know all about mother daughter jealousy and step parent jealousy
They say that by the time a step child reaches the age of 14 the child is likely either to commit suicide or have been murdered -
My mother and stepfather both had hidden agendas - both seriously resentful about a younger sister
I therefore found myself proxy for their resentments
Not till after I'd spoken to someone employed at a monstrous boarding establishment where they dumped me - years after the event who said
you do realise that the two owners Dr Bullen and Trixie Portsmouth (now deceased) were closet gays -
The penny dropped with a crash - reasons why I was targeted for openly preferring boys - and my mother who on my stepfather's last posting to Germany with the army picked up a sitting duck East German housekeeper Frau P -
My stepfather provided the attractive three story townhouse just off High St Kensington - since women were unable to obstain mortgages in the '50s - then had his marching orders and Frau P became her "companion" - and whom I was played off against continually - witnessing present
s loaded down on her before going to visit relatives -
Sadly too many are seriously naïve about what really goes on between parent and child- particularly immature ones with drink problems and incapable of keeping their hands to themselves - Hitting ruins a child's sense of safety and trust not to mention self worth - if I'd not been hit
I would never have accepted the same in adulthood believing that that
was all part of a supposed "loving relationship?"
What a joke!
No wonder our children are said to be the unhappiest in Europe!

Secretswitch Thu 01-Aug-13 19:33:04

Evie190, it sounds like you have been through hell. You have given lots of personal, perhaps identifying imformation in your post. You seem very distraught. I hope you can find some RL support. I am sorry for the abuse you endured..

handcream Thu 01-Aug-13 19:42:30

I agree re labelling any old no mark 'step father'. And I might be flamed but there are certainly a growing minority of women who let any old male access to their children because clearly their need for a man is far far greater than the child's. The birth father was a complete waste of space as well. Blaming everyone for what happened. Where was he in all this....

LaVolcan Thu 01-Aug-13 21:22:55

Indeed handcream. I can remember another such case a few years back, where the boy was killed by his mother (can't remember his name). The relatives - grandmother, estranged father- were slagging the social services off for not doing something. Er, where were they, why didn't they help the boy?

handcream Thu 01-Aug-13 21:28:22

Another disfunctional family. Mother, father (but clearly not involved) vicious boyfriend, another child living in the same house. We are so busy trying to accept all types of family units that we dont see what is staring us in the face.

I believe the sentence is tomorrow likely to be life I suspect but not until they die. Perhaps 15 years minimum.

timtam23 Thu 01-Aug-13 22:39:18

handcream the starting tariff for murder will be 15 yrs in this case. There are loads and loads of exacerbating factors (premeditation, Daniel's young age, the degree of cruelty & planning involved, lying to cover up their tracks, failing to seek help when he lay dying etc) so I imagine the minimum tariff will be very significantly higher once the judge takes all of this into account. I was wondering if they would get 30+ years each. "Whole life" tariffs are unlikely here I think (unfortunately) because they can only be given in certain circumstances, even when the crime is murder.

handcream Thu 01-Aug-13 22:48:39

If they get 30 yrs will they serve only half? That's if they don't get attacked in prison. I am wondering - what has happened over the yrs to Baby P killers and Victoria Clumbie in prison?

timtam23 Thu 01-Aug-13 23:06:58

No the minimum term is what they have to serve before they are eligible to be considered for parole (they don't automatically get a parole hearing after the minimum term is up)

this is different to the "non-life" sentences where they would serve only half of the sentence before being released on licence

Baby P case - one I think (the mum's partner's brother) has definitely been released because his indeterminate sentence was reduced to 3 yrs on appeal so he would have been released after serving half. The other 2 had indeterminate sentences and the mother's partner was also jailed for life for raping a 2 yr old so he at least will still be in jail, the mum may also still be in jail.

The Victoria Climbie killers may well still be in jail, not sure what their mnimum sentences were

nettle1 Thu 01-Aug-13 23:16:36

Baby peters evil stepfather got 12 years to serve for allowing or causing the death of a child and raping peters two year old sister. Its a pathetic sentence. The mother is already up for parole after serving a measly 5 years. Even her own mother argues it wasn't enough. She has ballooned to 20 stone after she says eating too many jam tarts in prison. Where is the so called justice in that?!!

nettle1 Thu 01-Aug-13 23:17:19

Steven Barker was the name of the evil stepfather of baby peter

handcream Thu 01-Aug-13 23:25:33

Oh God. I guess they will be protected like crazy by the authorites when they get out. Raping a 2 year old! Where in society can we put these scum. They seem to find each other and then committ the most appalling crimes. I don't understand sentences tbh. A 20 stone ex child killer - who will cost thousands. Never get a job, never give anything back.

It makes me feel physically sick tbh.

Quaffle Thu 01-Aug-13 23:30:27

Cases like this make me really hope that the "parents" get comprehensively battered in jail on a regular basis.

I don't like hoping it but I can't help it sad

If they are sentenced to murder, parole won't even be looked at until they admit and accept their guilt. So even if they can be considered for parole it won't mean they will get it, and I presume he at least will be sent straight back to Poland if he is ever released. I think I read there are outstanding convictions waiting for him?

handcream Thu 01-Aug-13 23:33:44

Baby Peter's mother seems to have done ok and survived - what on earth is she doing being eligble for parole....

Was she convicted of murder though?

I do agree with you though, it's just so awful. I just don't know what to say, if you know what I mean.

timtam23 Thu 01-Aug-13 23:46:48

I think the murder cases against Baby P's mum & her partner collapsed due to lack of evidence - they were both convicted of causing or allowing the death of a child. So her sentence was indeterminate for public protection & the protection of young children - presumably someone now considers that she is less of a danger and therefore eligible for parole

The partner will have to serve the minimum term on his life sentence for rape before parole can be considered. So 10 years. (I think he had a fixed term sentence for Baby P's death - 12 yrs?)

There was a big outcry over the sentences but I think the judge did about as much as he could given the limitations of the law & that there were no convictions for murder

It's not long enough though is it, that poor baby suffered terribly.

Paula0506 Fri 02-Aug-13 00:09:23

Please sign this petition at Change.org for Daniel.


This aim is to make it a legal obligation for adults in responsible positions to help children who are clearly in distress.

As Geoffrey Robinson, MP for Coventry North West. said to Sky News today "“people seeing a kid beaten, starved to death in our own country...you can’t just say there is nothing we can do about it."

So please sign this petition and help change the law to help vulnerable children like Daniel.

Paula0506 Fri 02-Aug-13 00:12:14

Please sign this petition at Change.org for Daniel.


This aim is to make it a legal obligation for adults in responsible positions to help children who are clearly in distress.

As Geoffrey Robinson, MP for Coventry North West. said to Sky News today "“people seeing a kid beaten, starved to death in our own country...you can’t just say there is nothing we can do about it."

So please sign this petition and help change the law to help vulnerable children like Daniel.

LaVolcan Fri 02-Aug-13 08:38:42

Sorry, this is not a petition I will be signing. This seems to put far too much blame on the school for not doing more. We don't know exactly what they did do, but from what I have read, those classroom staff in daily contact with him, did try to do as much as they could.

handcream Fri 02-Aug-13 09:20:19

I am normally very right wing in my views (as some on the forum know!). I really despair of this case though, these people found each other and undertook poor evil. We can say that SW, the school, etc should have done more.

Maybe - I suspect that the outcome will be better communications (again!) but we do need to progress on getting the agencies joined up. Someone oversees the case and gets reports from police, SW, the school and can get a clear picture of what is going on. Not just snippets from different depts.

I do also wonder what we do with these two criminals. Jail in our country just seems too good for them tbh. Human rights protected, three meals a day, protection from other prisoners, do-gooders saying that the mother was in fact a 'victim' in all of this. Appeals, more money being spent on them and their 'rights'.

It seems all wrong.

My DH says for people like this give them the choice of life imprisonment or a sucide pill that they can take at any time. Saves us lots of money as well. It will never happen though.

I was the subject of a burgulary last year. Young lads on bikes smashing windows of houses they liked the look of. They rampaged through the house and attacked the dog. I had people on a thread saying we must 'support' them, give them another chance, they are so young. When it happens to YOU you do feel differently though. I wanted to meet them, the polcie advised against it, they said they didnt care, wouldnt look you in the eye.

The mother (why is there so much crime committed by boys being brought up by a single mother) lied and tried to cover up where they were.

fromparistoberlin Fri 02-Aug-13 12:04:23

do-gooders saying that the mother was in fact a 'victim' in all of this.

Handcream, I get ya but honestly, noone is saying this. even her defence barrister! I PRAY that they dont get protected.Ohhhhh I am waiting to read about a little toothbruch/razor blade/lighter mash up being applied to their bodies

I cant beleive I just typed that

Ladies, all we can do is keep our eyes and ears open . Some bad shit goes on. and I think we have to be ever vigilent

RIP darling darling Daniel , I am fucking crying sad

handcream Fri 02-Aug-13 12:14:09

I know, however- she tried the 'victim' defence at her trial. Apparently her mother is doing the same now. What a feckless disfunctional family.

I fear we havent seen the last of her blaming others - to have been forced to do all of this and in fear of her life should she report him....

halfpint76 Fri 02-Aug-13 12:37:37

I have been so upset by this case as all of us have. It has left me feeling completely helpless and despairing about human nature and what we are capable of. I just can't stop thinking about that poor little soul.

It's very easy to point the finger at the other adults that Daniel came into contact with (teachers, health workers, social workers and even the neighbours) but unless all those professions/organisations involved in child protection are properly trained and resourced to deal with these cases; until they are sufficiently supported by a joined up referral system (that works nationwide) and allows them to share information effectively; until they have proper powers to intervene - we will see this happen again and that is so terrifying. I know, an ideal world and all that and we will never stop it completely. But, it really should be our first priority to ensure enough resources and effort is put into caring for those most vulnerable. It should have stopped with Victoria Climbie, Baby P....

I'm also dubious about the UK's current focus and approach of keeping and supporting dysfunctional families together (yes it can work out in some cases) but not all and children aren't always better off with those they are just genetically related to! Also as individuals we need to stop turning a blind eye. I just hope that, if nothing else, this case makes us a little more sceptical and a little more spurred on to intervene if we see anything that feel is wrong.

At least Daniel has some peace now.

MinesaBottle Fri 02-Aug-13 12:42:05

Well, they've been given life. I hope it fucking means life too.

I cried my eyes out seeing the CCTV footage from the school of him walking down the corridor, he looked so much like my nephew at that age. I can't begin to imagine what possesses anyone to treat a child like this, our every instinct surely should be to look after children and keep them safe sad

handcream Fri 02-Aug-13 12:45:42

Yes, we need to have a joined up approach. And I so agree with you re supporting dysfunctional families. Peter's mother and her scumbag partners had huge amounts of suppport and lived in a complete pig sty with men drifting in and out. FGS - one of these men raped a 2 year old. |

Yet only a few days before (and I remember this because it was so wrong!) her SW saying how proud of her she was and how well she was doing...

We seem to be more and more accepting of what 30 years ago was seen as disfunctional. We are scared to say what we really think for fear of being accused of being racist, culturally insensitive etc, biased towards single mothers who have various random men visiting, and who have criminal records. We often seem to want to give them chance after chance.

handcream Fri 02-Aug-13 12:46:38

Hadnt heard the sentence. But it wont mean life will it.....

JakeBullet Fri 02-Aug-13 12:52:19

It's not just teachers, social workers etc...it's everybody. Neighbours, other parents, family. It's because we think "oh it's been referred" that we don't look and we should.

Just a thought.

I have in the past spoken to SS about a child who lives up the road...and I keep an eye on him too. I don't know what (if anything) happened about the referral but I still have concerns (low level neglect) and I won't hesitate to ring again if it becomes extra concerning.

We all need to be doing this.

handcream Fri 02-Aug-13 12:56:58

You are right Jake, we need to keep an eye on things, my very elderly neighbour who clearly has memory loss (doesnt recognise us even though we have lived her for 12 years) still drives. I have followed her ocasionally when I am out and about and she is a good competent driver. But I will keep a look out...

LaVolcan Fri 02-Aug-13 12:58:18

I was just reading this extract from the Guardian about Victoria Climbie:

Learning from past experience - a review of serious case reviews, evidence from a random selection of cases indicated that, for example the age of the primary carer at the time of the death of a child is normally between 21 and 30, that almost half had mental health problems and the majority were in unstable long-term relationships with some degree of violence. Furthermore, they are part of households that experience frequent moves and have, increasingly, drug and alcohol problems.

Much of this could be describing Daniel's family. 10 years on and we seem to have learnt nothing.

fromparistoberlin Fri 02-Aug-13 12:59:19

Mother Magdalena Luczak, 27, and step-father Mariusz Krezolek, 34, will both serve minimum terms of 30 years in prison.

The pair, from Holbrooks, had been found guilty of the four-year-old's murder at Birmingham Crown Court on Wednesday.

Read more: Daniel Pelka killers jailed for life | Coventry Observer

I have been following this for weeks, and now its all over. I cantstop fucking crying

It says they must serve a minimum of 30 years each, good.

TabithaStephens Fri 02-Aug-13 13:04:34

Will they actually serve 30 years though? I just don't trust the legal system anymore. In a few years, when prisons are full, people will have forgotten about this case.

They have to serve a min of 30 before they are eligable for parole, only home secretary or appeal could change it.

girliefriend Fri 02-Aug-13 16:36:52

I don't think 30 years is enough tbh and I think they should serve the sentence is poland where I assume the prisons are more like prisons and less like holiday camps.


handcream Fri 02-Aug-13 17:06:56

I thought that too but then it would have to work in all cases ie that GM currently in jail in Bali expecting to be released and allowed to serve her time in UK jail.

Problem is these two are going to cost thousands to keep now. Only just saw a picture of them a few mins ago. She looks really rough and he looks like someone you would cross the road to avoid. Perhaps another red flag for the authorites.

edam Fri 02-Aug-13 19:37:58

You can't take children away from their parents because they 'look a bit rough', FGS!

I'm glad they got a minimum term of 30 years before they can even be considered for parole. That is a real signal from the judge about the extraordinary depravity of this crime. I interviewed a lifer once, double murderer, who had done 22 years. (He had reformed, thanks to a dedicated prison tutor.)

Re. Baby P - very sadly there was a long history of SS involvement in generations of his family. It was irony of ironies that Lord Laming was asked to hold the inquiry into Peter's death. Laming had been the local inspector of children's services who had resisted inquiring into the child abuse scandal in Islington children's homes when members of Peter's family were in there, the same generation as Peter's mother. details here. Neither Laming, nor Hodge, have ever been held to account for their obstinate refusal to stop paedophiles preying on children in Islington.

scarlet5tyger Fri 02-Aug-13 19:44:23

I am a foster carer and unfortunately cases like this happen all too often, barely ever making the headlines like this.

Even when social services are informed and decide a child should be removed social workers now have to convince financial managers that its worth spending the money!

All the carers in my local authority have been informed lately that less children are going to be brought into care, instead more "support" (from social workers already struggling with huge, huge caseloads) will be given to families in need.

The whole system is collapsing and it makes me furious.

hollyisalovelyname Fri 02-Aug-13 20:37:39

Scarlet I just wish our female politicians or our male politicians wives could read your post.... and change things

NanaNina Fri 02-Aug-13 21:24:42

Yes this is indeed another horrific case. I think teaching staff have a duty to refer any cases of suspected child abuse to Social Services and they should then instigate a S.47 enquiry into the allegations. I don't know if this happened. I did read somewhere that the child was seen by a GP 3 weeks before he died who described him as "thin but not wasted" - I think this GP has a lot to answer for. I usually get annoyed at the thing about "lessons have to be learned" but probably for different reasons than others. Having been a social worker for 30 years I know that to prevent children being abused is simply not possible, because you would have to live with the families to detect abuse, and of course that can't be done. I usually think it should be pointed out that while ever there are people out there who are so damaged and deranged and have children in their care, then these cases are going to happen. Sad but true. You cannot totally eliminate risk to children, and I wish this was made known at the time of these cases.

Hi Scarlet I know social services are hugely under resourced and this has always been the case, but I'm afraid I blame the coalition for the reckless way they have slashed budgets of all public services to pay for the deficit caused by the greed of the bankers. It isn't really a case of sws having to convince managers if it's worth spending the money, it's a case of whether there are enough social workers to actually take on the case and enough money to pay carers etc etc. It really is that bad, and yes children are going to be left in unsafe homes, and the fault lies at the hands of Cameron and his wealthy cabinet members.

So Holly I'm afraid it is the male and female members of the cabinet and MPs of this coalition who are the root cause of the problem. Yes of course they will start to blame all the public servants whose budgets have been cut to the bone, but many people are not aware of the real reasons why LAs cannot carry out their duties in a proper manner.

I am not saying the cuts are responsible for the case under discussion, as many things are unknown until the SCR is published. One thing that is odd is that there was a sibling who was not ill treated as far as we know. I wonder if the sibling was the natural child of Daniel's step father, as in so many cases a step father is involved, but the mother was equally responsible in this case.

timtam23 Fri 02-Aug-13 21:26:59

30 years for both of them...well it's a long minimum term right enough, and the judge's comments made it quite clear that she considered Daniel's murderers to have been particularly callous & cruel, but...it doesn't seem long enough. I heard yet more details on the news when driving home & I was in tears in the car. Work colleague of mum's partner who knew Daniel was being beaten...Daniel's Polish grandma who thinks her daughter isn't to blame, it's "the system" in England which killed him...really I despair.

I'm not usually amongst the "hang 'em and flog 'em" brigade but maybe they will experience some rough justice in prison.

scarlet that's very true about lots of other cases going unnoticed, I remember there was a horrible case around the time of Baby P, a baby girl who died of a severely broken back after assault & abuse from dad I think? but it passed without much comment because of the focus on the Baby P case.

Minesa I can't look at a photo of Daniel without thinking about my DS1 - another little blond boy in a red school jumper. Upsets me every time.

LaVolcan Fri 02-Aug-13 22:19:14

NanaNina - yes, I so agree with your second paragraph. When are we going to hold Cameron and his chums responsible?

difficultpickle Fri 02-Aug-13 23:07:55

I find it shocking that another child can be starved to death in the same local authority as that responsible for the care of Khyra Ishaq. It gives me no confidence at all that anything will change as a result of poor Daniel's death. I don't think the blame can be layed totally at the coalition's door re funding, Khyra Ishaq was killed in 2008.

difficultpickle Fri 02-Aug-13 23:14:19

Sorry that should be neighbouring authority. How does a serious case review work? Are the findings published nationally and shared amongst all authorities or confined to the local authority responsible?

NanaNina Fri 02-Aug-13 23:15:53

Sadly LaVolcan I think there are many people in our society who are disinterested in politics, and are unaware of the way this evil coalition is slashing budgets of public services while at the same time handing out billions to private enterprises, who are now being seen to be wholly inefficient. This coalition is evil and cares nothing for the ordinary people or children of this country so long as they are all wallowing in wealth.

There are many many more cases of children being ill treated and even dying at the hands of their parents/step parents but it's only a few (like baby Peter) that make the headlines, and I'm never sure why this is the case.

We had a case in the LA where I worked for 25 years. A 1 yr old child was murdered by the step father and the mother was terrified of the man too. There was an older child who was the natural child of the step father. It was a fairly horrendous case and the maternal grandmother made allegations against the step father, but every time there was an allegation it was investigated by a sw and police from the Child Protection Unit, and nothing could be proven. The baby was examined by a paediatrician and nothing found.

However the baby died at the hands of the step father at aged 1 yr and the parents walked around the town with the baby in the buggy while they bought cigarettes before taking the child to hospital where she died soon after arrival. This case didn't make the headlines, and I know there are many more such cases.

I don't know what the answer is - we are meant to be the higher form of animal life. However the male lion will kill the cubs of a lioness if he wants to mate her, to preserve his gene pool. I think in most of the cases of serious ill treatment or death of a child, there is a step parent involved, usually a step father. It is quite scary that humans are capable of such horrific treatment of a child. As sws we do try to understand the worst of human behaviour and I have never met an abuser who was not abused as a child him/herself. That is not to say all children who are abused go on to abuse their own children. However I have to say I have no understanding of such cruel and prolonged abuse.

edam Fri 02-Aug-13 23:27:45

I don't think you can blame animal instincts because lions kill the cubs of other lions.

In this case the mother was just as culpable, not someone who was terrorised into submission. There are plenty of good step-parents who are decent human beings - thankfully monsters like these ones are very rare.

(Side issue but my inner pedant cannot be restrained - I think you mean uninterested, FWIW. Disinterested means impartial.)

M0naLisa Sat 03-Aug-13 00:44:59

I hope he is sent to Wakefield Prison because he won't be in there long before he is attacked. April Jones killer was in Theresa's than a moth before he was attacked!!! I hope they gauge his fucking eyes out the nasty evil cunt.

M0naLisa Sat 03-Aug-13 00:45:35

And as for
Her. There are no words to describe her. Someone who could do that to their own child is beyond help she needs a good battering

PeriodMath Sat 03-Aug-13 01:01:25

Is there a reason why British taxpayers have to foot the bill to keep these scumbags in jail for the next 30 yrs?

Why can't they be sent back to Poland?

IrnBruTheNoo Sat 03-Aug-13 09:14:22

I personally feel they should be serving their sentence in Poland, not the UK. They need harsh treatment, not a hotel service where they get treated with dignity. Not after what they've both done.

DH suspects that someone will already have a contract out on their lives as we speak.

IrnBruTheNoo Sat 03-Aug-13 09:18:28

handcream is right on her instincts of the mother though by her description. The mother does look rough as f*@k (as I'd put it where I'm from). Before I read about it, I could tell from the photograph that I saw of them both that drugs and alcohol would be involved in their lives...she looks extremely messed up. And he does look like a thug.

IrnBruTheNoo Sat 03-Aug-13 09:27:07

"One thing that is odd is that there was a sibling who was not ill treated as far as we know."

NanaNina I think I heard on Radio 4 last night that the work colleague of the partner knew their was something going on, apparently the partner said to his colleague that Daniel was 'autistic' and 'couldn't feel pain'. Perhaps the older sibling was seen as a "normal" child, and Daniel not? Who knows what was going on in their heads...

edam Sat 03-Aug-13 10:11:33

Sadly it's not unknown for one child to be singled out as the victim, while other children are either treated well or less victimised. I doubt this pair of monsters were good parents to Daniel's sibling(s) but they certainly visited their spite and hate on poor Daniel. Heartbreaking testimony from one sibling who tried to help Daniel - tried to find food for him. Little child trying to protect him from the abusers, doing more for Daniel than any adult.

timtam23 Sat 03-Aug-13 22:27:20

PeriodMath and IrnBru I read in the paper today that they could both apply to serve their sentences in Poland, however the Justice Secretary has the power to veto their requests. On one hand, if they were in Poland it wouldn't beat our expense any more, however I don't know how the Polish justice system works with regard to parole, maybe the UK system would be better in that respect (I would hate to think that the bar might be set lower in Poland and they might be released there after 30 years whereas the UK would keep them jailed)

edam I think there was more than 1 sibling in the Baby P case as well. There was a 2 yr old who was raped, so she was hardly well-treated, but I'm sure there were reports that Baby P's mother had more than 2 children in the house, and if so it would seem that the others weren't abused in the way that Peter was. Everything was highly anonymised though, to protect the remaining siblings, so I can't remember the details.

timtam23 Sat 03-Aug-13 22:27:49

be at ...sorry...

IrnBruTheNoo Sun 04-Aug-13 10:08:25

timtam23 thanks for responding. Yes, in some ways it would be better for them to serve the sentence in their homeland, but not if it meant them being released after 30 years. I personally feel prison is too good for them. It's a luxury, really IMO...

"There was a 2 yr old who was raped" - shocking. F***ing animals.

MissM Sun 04-Aug-13 16:34:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MissM Sun 04-Aug-13 16:52:46

not always that simple for teachers, plus that the official channels for complaints and safeguarding move incredibly slowly.

The people who commit these crimes are devious and manipulative. For example, Daniel had only been at his school for six months - these kinds of people often move around a lot because they know that this way it takes time for information to follow them and so they go under the radar. They know how long procedures take to get moving, even when schools follow the correct ones (which it sounds as though Daniel's school did in this case).

What I'm trying to say is that these dreadful situations aren't as black and white as they're seen in hindsight. The teachers did notice something was wrong. They did report and pass on information. But six months is not a long time to get wheels in motion, especially when there are school holidays to content with, and abusive parents know how to play the system. Even if SS had intervened he wouldn't necessarily have been removed from his home. I'm not trying to make excuses as more may come to light, but the system we have at the moment means that these terrible things will continue to happen. In the end though, the people with responsibility for Daniel's death were the two people who killed Daniel.

Paula0506 Sun 04-Aug-13 22:27:48


PLEASE SIGN this petition to change the law for Daniel Pelka. The aim is to make it a legal obligation for adults in responsible positions to help children who are clearly in distress, as it is in many other countries.

2,500 signatures in three days, 10,000 and it goes to Downing Street.

mrshaha Mon 05-Aug-13 12:27:31

I can't stop crying about Daniel. I read the news last Thursday and now can't get the pain and suffering out my head and I am crying all the time. Every time I pick up my 17 month old, I imagine how that poor soul was never given any love and left to die by himself. Every time I eat I think of his starvation and confusion at why he was not allowed food. He must have been so lonely and desperate at the cruelty inflicted. It's killing me inside.

I began to think I was going mad, grieving for a boy I never knew, but it appears that I am not the only one severely affected by this story. I hope in time the pain fades for everyone, but we never forget what happened and steps are taken so that it never happens again

The only comfort is that for once the justice system worked and the monsters were given life. I hope they have to live in fear every day just like Daniel did. The photo of him is burnt on my mind.

This is one news story I am never going to forget. Does anyone know if a fund or charity is being set up in his memory? It's a small comfort but I feel I need to be doing something or take some sort of action to lessen the grief I am feeling.

IrnBruTheNoo Mon 05-Aug-13 13:06:44

Considering the horrendous crime, I'm surprised the thread has more or less ground to a halt. It seems to be old news sad

handcream Mon 05-Aug-13 14:11:25

I would watch out giving money to a charity in his name. Whats to say that the extended family of these two (who seem to largely quite ambilivant about what has happened) dont start to try and get their greedy mitts on it claiming they are 'desperately trying to rebuild their lives' and need 'support'.

Sorry, but I was reading about the Ian Tomlinson case. The compensation has been paid to the 'family' but apparently he hadnt seen some of them for years. I always get uncomfortable about paying money when something has gone wrong, of course it should be payable when someone has become disabled as a result of say a mistake by the hospital when they are born but giving money to 'family' when someone has died isnt always the answer.

edam Mon 05-Aug-13 14:22:36

I think compensation for the unlawful killing of Ian Tomlinson, by a bully and a thug who had previously been sacked for aggression, is the least the Met could do. It puts down a marker and tells the bosses that they can't get away with this shit. Although I notice the Met announcement doesn't say anything about re-training officers who work on demonstrations, so there's no guarantee it won't happen again.

handcream Mon 05-Aug-13 14:39:42

am questioning why tax payers money is going into the pockets of people who havent seen Ian for years and who seem to be benefiting from his death. Yes, if we have to go down the compensation route then perhaps to a charity?

IrnBruTheNoo Mon 05-Aug-13 15:39:19

must say I do agree with you handcream. I won't be donating money to the justgiving page in Daniel's name mainly because I've no guarantee where the money would be going to, or who, precisely.

CorrineFoxworth Mon 05-Aug-13 15:48:59

Irn, the thread has been going since the fourth of June so it has been discussed for quite some time. Quite a few people only became aware of the story when the conviction was secured last week.

I also believe that for a lot of people, Daniel will always stay with them. I don't think I will ever forget his lovely little face and one day I'll make a call, or do something positive to honour him and his memory. It's all any of us can do for him now.

handcream Mon 05-Aug-13 16:34:08

I would hate to go the way of Japan where you can actually give money to the relatives of the people who you have done wrong to to get a reduced sentence. Its horrible.

timtam23 Mon 05-Aug-13 16:55:46

mrshaha it's a shocking case isn't it and has touched so many people. I have been really upset by it too, my eldest is the same age as Daniel & his school uniform is the same colours so I was getting a bit emotionally overinvolved and had to stop reading the news reports at one point because I was thinking about it too much.

I agree with being wary of the justgiving sites etc as you can't guarantee who is taking the money. A recognised child welfare charity is a safer bet even if it isn't specific to Daniel's memory - maybe there is something in the Coventry area where he lived?

I read that his school are planning a memorial garden, also the investigating police team seemed hugely affected by the case and the police spokesperson said that they had photos of him all over their office and would never ever forget him, maybe they will do something in his memory. I don't work directly with children but do have to keep up to date with child safeguarding training so maybe one day thanks to Daniel's sad case I'll be more aware of child abuse and will be able to make that call to help another child.

halfpint76 Mon 05-Aug-13 20:43:37

mrshaha I've been exactly the same, you're not going mad, you're just compassionate. I haven't been able to stop thinking about him, and inevitably end up sobbing. I'll never forget him and feel so futile/frustrated/angry at how this could have happened. I'm desperately clinging to the notion that there are more good people in the world than bad, doing their small bit but we should all do more. I know I could. I won't be donating unless it's to a registered charity as Timtam23 has mentioned. It's also seriously made me consider fostering as some point in the future.

CorrineFoxworth Mon 05-Aug-13 22:19:52

I wish we could do something for Daniel's astonishingly brave sibling. I would happily donate to a fund which would help secure the future of this amazing child but this would be impossible, for very important reasons.

Also, something to bear in mind is that the internet is open and forever, no matter how long this thread has run in MN days / months, and that our comments may well be read by people close to this in just a few years from now.

Paula0506 Thu 08-Aug-13 19:49:37


The Coventry Telegraph is supporting a campaign to change the law so that adults in responsible positions are legally obliged to help children who are clearly in distress - such legislation already exists in many other countries. The paper is calling it Daniel's Law - please will you click the link and sign to support it.

LaVolcan Thu 08-Aug-13 22:23:37

We have already had at least two links to this petition on this thread - but IMO it puts far too much emphasis on the school. It is not the school which murdered Daniel. We have also had people either on this thread/some of the other threads about Daniel, who work in schools; they have reported concerns about children to social services, only to be told 'doesn't meet the thresholds, case closed'.

So perhaps the petition should be to start putting money into social services/child welfare instead, rather than trying to scapegoat individuals?

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 09-Aug-13 10:17:55

Agree with LaVolcan

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 09-Aug-13 13:22:29

I've followed this story as much as I can bear, the details are too much for me.
May I just say, in defence of SWs and teachers there will always be one that sips the net.
I bed there are hundreds of kids who's lives have been saved through the hard work of so many of the authorities that care for them.
We only here the mistakes and the bad stories, the good ones don't get publicised.
I'm not a SW or a teacher or actually anybody that could have done anything in this situation.
Clearly more money has to be spent on our most vulnerable but in my heart I do believe there are many Daniel's out there who's lives were saved and hopefully are living happy lives.

fromparistoberlin Mon 12-Aug-13 08:29:07

I was also so affected by this. there are many of us. I have just had weeks holiday, and it actually was nice to be in an environment where his tragic story was not in the media. That sounds awful, but I was haunted by this for weeks and weeks. I wept when they got sentanced.

I am heartned to see that so many of us are devastated by what happended to him.

I am dead curious to know whats happended to those 2 in prison

BTW I LOVE that judge, 30 years. I really though they would get less.

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