Soldier beheaded in Woolwich and it took police 20 mins

(162 Posts)
bkgirl Wed 22-May-13 19:35:04

Why am I not surprised? 20 minutes, what chance do we have with this pathetic response. As for the barracks...why couldn't someone come out with a gun and at least prevent these guys from attacking anyone else. Who was guarding the army base - do they have guns? Dreadful.

HeySoulSister Wed 22-May-13 19:38:16

oh here we go!! slag off the police!

5318008 Wed 22-May-13 19:38:29

<hides thread>

harryhausen Wed 22-May-13 19:39:33

Oh yeah. Those nasty police are disgusting.

Bowlersarm Wed 22-May-13 19:40:31

It's a terrible thing to happen, blame the people who did it.

Not the over stretched police force please.

Yes its the police and the armys fault, nothing at all to do with the two people who actually committed the murder.

HeySoulSister Wed 22-May-13 19:41:37

my thoughts are with those officers (my former colleagues)....not a nice task

JakeBullet Wed 22-May-13 19:42:00

Nowt to do with the arseholes who committed th crime then?

Pagwatch Wed 22-May-13 19:42:52

Christ almighty. Can you just have some bloody respect?

WireCatWhore Wed 22-May-13 19:43:53

Really op. really.

Where did you get your "fact" from?

anothershittynickname Wed 22-May-13 19:44:05

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

crypes Wed 22-May-13 19:44:39

It's abit worrying tho because the police wernt properly prepared for the London riots two years ago , you would think they would be at the scene in no time.

Lifeisontheup Wed 22-May-13 19:46:06

Thoughts and prayers with the family of the young man and with those who witnessed it and for the emergency services who attended.

I save my disgust for the perpetrators of this horrific crime.

HeySoulSister Wed 22-May-13 19:46:42

how much time is acceptable to you crypes

jcscot Wed 22-May-13 19:46:43

Soldiers on guard are subject to Rules of Engagement that would (possibly - I don't know) prevent them from firing on civilians off-base. It's also possible that the gate was manned by MoD Plod, not soldiers or MPGS, who have different jurisdiction to civvie police. Their priority would be to ensure the safety of the base in case the incident was meant as a diversionary tactic to mask an attack on the barracks.

My thoughts are with the family of the dead soldier.

Januarymadness Wed 22-May-13 19:49:05

it did not take police that long. It took ARMED police that long. what do you expect an armed copper 2 mins up the road at all times......

scaevola Wed 22-May-13 19:50:19

The attack was on the road, near but not immediately adjacent to the barracks. Who was on guard there is wholly unrelated to this incident.

I am sure all actions by the police will be scrutinised, as they always are when they open fire.

pooka Wed 22-May-13 19:51:55

Ffs.

Rein it in, you sound ridiculous.

The police response had to be armed - the attackers were clearly waiting for them to arrive in order that they could attack the police. Do you reckon that the pcs from around the corner with a truncheon or pepper spray soiled have taken on armed men, with gun and machete?

Gods sake. angry

Januarymadness Wed 22-May-13 19:52:05

I would really like a like button for anothershittynicknames post.

This is closer to home than you would ever believe and I still say Fuck off. And please don't drum up any kind of hate (apart from those who actually did it) because someone has already died. Whipping up a frenzy will put a higher tally on your concience.

NiceTabard Wed 22-May-13 19:52:15

That is just a really stupid post, OP.

crypes Wed 22-May-13 19:54:17

I just said ' no time'.

pooka Wed 22-May-13 19:55:45

Your post doesn't make sense - "prevent these guys from attacking anyone else". They didn't attack anyone else. They were waiting for police to approach themin order that they could attack them. Having used the whole thing as a propaganda exercise.

You're expecting soldiers to leave base, i nvestigate and shoot the attackers who at that stage weren't attacking any more? That's a military execution. Would escalate and also raise a shitstorm of questions and publicity against the army, taking the focus away from the hideous actions to these two attackers.

EmmaDale Wed 22-May-13 20:01:03

'why couldn't someone come out with a gun and at least prevent these guys from attacking anyone else'

Really??

Why on earth post? What you've written doesn't make any sense. You sound like a total idiot and above all, your drivel isn't needed at this time.
Just fucking leave it.

(and yes, i did mean to be so rude)

clam Wed 22-May-13 20:01:55

"come out with a gun?"
Yeah, right, coz it's that simple.
Ridiculous thread!

jamtoast12 Wed 22-May-13 20:02:02

I've read lots of news sites just now... Where does it mention he was beheaded as it doesn't say it anywhere?

jcscot Wed 22-May-13 20:02:25

>what pooka and scaevola said.

The military would not have had jurisdiction in this incident. Can you imagine the shitstorm if they'd fired on the attackers?

Corygal Wed 22-May-13 20:06:43

BBC online said it was decapitation.

MikeLitoris Wed 22-May-13 20:06:55

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MrsBertMacklin Wed 22-May-13 20:11:42

Nice to see all the armchair experts already out in force on this. I suggest people like the OP keep their ill-informed opinions to themselves on this matter until the facts are better established.

Pagwatch Wed 22-May-13 20:11:45

I agree with NiceTabard.

Deeply thick post.

jamtoast12 Wed 22-May-13 20:12:56

I've just read bbc online too and didnt see that. Said attacked but no mention on any site of decapitation?

Lorialet Wed 22-May-13 20:17:16

One of the original witnesses on Twitter (@BOYADEE ) said decapitation.

donnie Wed 22-May-13 20:20:36

Dumb and dumber. OP.....if you are truly concerned by police response times then write to the Prime Minister and ask him to justify the huge funding cuts his govt has made to the police force. Otherwise show some fucking respect for an innocent man who has been murdered by crazed nutters.

clam Wed 22-May-13 20:24:46

Loathe as I am to dignify much of what the OP has said, "those guys" didn't attack anyone else, so how would soldiers from the barracks rushing out with guns have altered anything? Other than possibly mowing down a few innocent passers-by?

LynetteScavo Wed 22-May-13 20:27:34

Stupid OP.

I know very little about most things, and even I can see it's stupid.

OliviaMMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 22-May-13 20:29:43

Today's event are being discussed without bun throwing thus far on this thread
Thanks
MNHQ

olivertheoctopus Wed 22-May-13 20:29:49

Dear god. Off to the Daily Mail comments section you go. It'll be all those nasty foreigners coming over here and taking our jobs that kept the police busy eh....

crypes Wed 22-May-13 20:29:50

" show some fucking respect". Is that an oxymoron ?

mymatemax Wed 22-May-13 20:34:24

police were there very quickly, armed response took 20 mins.

My thouhts are with the poor man & his family. The sick evil scumbags are beyond words

Pagwatch Wed 22-May-13 20:34:52

No it isn't.
Respect for those involved. Not respect for dimwits on the Internet.

HeySoulSister Wed 22-May-13 20:35:00

ahhh so op got it wrong?

anothershittynickname Wed 22-May-13 20:39:52

Thankyou januarymadness

There really are no other words!! It would seem MNHQ don't agree with you ;-)

donnie Wed 22-May-13 20:41:54

No, not an oxymoron. It is an adjective followed by an abstract noun. Perhaps you needed a little help with that? If you would like examples of oxymorons I could provide some.

bkgirl Wed 22-May-13 21:34:30

So it is acceptable that a poor soldier can walk either in to or out of a barracks and be subject to a prolonged, sustained attack and no one in an army barracks is capable of coming out and assisting? Plus it takes 20 minutes for police to turn up - this is London, not Ben fecking Nevis. It IS too long. Yes, they do have guns in an army barrack and yes the dissident republicans are also active and have executed soldiers before outside Antrim barracks. It is that simple, army barracks should be guarded by armed soldiers - not private security guards. It's crazy they would not have authorisation not to fire in this circumstance. For goodness sake, what if they had driven up with a bomb? Would the MOD police ask them nicely to move along or wait maybe 20 mins for the police to arrive.

I am NOT drumming up hate, unfortunately I have experience of terrorists and the fear they caused in Northern Ireland. I grew up beside an army base. I cannot believe Woolwich barracks was so unprotected. It's just so naive. I hope this increased protection around bases extends to all bases, not just a few in London.

Poor bloke, I am so sorry for his family.

bkgirl Wed 22-May-13 21:35:23

20 mins for armed police - fecking help for the poor guy is not on.

bkgirl Wed 22-May-13 21:42:13

Oliver, no it's not some racist rant - I believe that most people are decent and extremists of any sort hurt society. It's about being disgusted that for 20 minutes this went on before action was taken to stop it. I have lost friends to terrorism, I just think a barracks deserves proper protection.

scaevola Wed 22-May-13 21:45:08

It's got fuck all to do with how the barracks are guarded, because it happened on the street.

And given the perimeter wall, I doubt anyone in there would have even seeing take place.

And did you see the Ch4 News, here it was said incident was first treated as gang related? Are they meant to come piling out for everything within a certain distance of the barracks whilst identity of victim isn't known? And of course once the bad guys knew soldiers would act like that, then those soldiers responding would become the targets after a staged incident. Which is why security round bases in days of IRA wasn't quite as pp described it.

jcscot Wed 22-May-13 21:47:41

The barracks do have proper protection. However, those guarding them (who are not private companies BTW but either MPGS or MoD Police) do not, as I understand it, have jurisdiction or authority to act outside of the barracks.

The individual who was murdered was on the road near the barracks and therefore under the jurisdiction of the Met. Those on guard duty would not have been able to leave their posts and leave the barracks undefended.

bkgirl Wed 22-May-13 21:54:24

I know exactly what security was like around bases in Northern Ireland and frankly it SHOULD be known what is going on over a perimeter wall outside any base. Anything less is pisspoor and unfair to those within. No I don't expect unarmed soldiers to pile out of the barracks but I cannot believe they were incapable of taking any action. Also who is to say who else these extremists could have attacked? 20 minutes, nope sorry - I don't think this poor soldiers family will find that acceptable.

NiceTabard Wed 22-May-13 21:54:49

1. You think that the people in the barracks knew what was happening. Yo are guessing.
2. You think that there should be armed police available to attend (any and all?) situations in the UK in less than 20 mins. That would involve having armed police liberally deployed on the majority of streets at all times. The vast majority of people in the UK would not want that. And it would be a disproportionate and extremely expensive reaction to a very very rare crime, and a reaction that would fundamentally change the entire feel of our country.

bkgirl Wed 22-May-13 21:57:30

Thank you jcscot for a reasonable explanation of the response from the barracks. Sorry, just very upset about it. Seen the after effects of a bomb which killed many including soldiers, the sounds still haunt me. Every minute is a lifetime in this situation.

Januarymadness Wed 22-May-13 21:59:33

This was not inside or near to the main entrance of the barracks. The barracks are protected. This happened in the Street, heading towards the town centre

bkgirl Wed 22-May-13 22:00:32

Nicetabard, around army barracks they should be armed just because of situations like this. The Afghanistan and Iraq situations alone justify this degree of protection.

bkgirl Wed 22-May-13 22:02:45

Thank you January.

NiceTabard Wed 22-May-13 22:09:46

What about ordinary people who live in areas with high levels of crime?
What about individuals who are at high risk of being attacked?
Especially when these risks are much higher than the risks to a soldier in barracks in the UK?

There are people who are at much more risk every day in the UK, yet there is no massive call for them to be protected 24/7 with armed guards.

bkgirl Wed 22-May-13 22:11:50

"MPs last night praised the “extraordinary bravery” of the women and raised concerns about why it took armed police 20 minutes to arrive at the scene while people’s lives were at risk.
According to a security source the delay in the armed police response is “particularly surprising” because there is a heavily armed police presence at Woolwich Crown Court, which is just two and a half miles away."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10074881/Mum-talked-down-Woolwich-terrorists-who-told-her-We-want-to-start-a-war-in-London-tonight.html

These women were so brave. sad

scaevola Wed 22-May-13 22:15:26

As you know about NI rules, you'll also know why they don't read across into this situation.

I am sure the police response will be part of IPCC enquiry that has already been announced.

NiceTabard Wed 22-May-13 22:16:19

Depends what the traffic's like.
You got the time for the incident to be reported, assessed, armed police required, called, and then they've got to get there through london traffic.
20 mins is pretty good I reckon.
If you want quicker then you need armed police on the streets just generally, and lots of them, everywhere.

ThatVikRinA22 Wed 22-May-13 22:41:06

armed response would not have been first on scene i doubt, 999 in my force have a 15 min response time - and there are very few armed response or ARVs left these days. Inner city london with associated traffic would probably warrant a longer response time.

i am going to take a mn break. so sick of this shit.

bkgirl Wed 22-May-13 23:59:56

Ok so 20 mins to respond to a terrorist incident is fine by all here, except me.

I really wonder if the poor soldiers family is so understanding.

JakeBullet Thu 23-May-13 06:29:48

No it's not "fine" or "okay" but given that we don't know what else they were dealing with, what information they were given and what the staffing levels were like we have to err in the side of caution before condemning them.

JakeBullet Thu 23-May-13 06:46:12

bkgirl, apparently police WERE on the scene well before 20 mins but were not allowed to approach without armed police. It was 20 mins for armed police to arrive...not unreasonable given that we don't arm police in our country.

Ledkr Thu 23-May-13 06:51:49

Far more worrying is that I just heard them on the news question.why it was FEMALE officers who responded!
FFS

AuntieStella Thu 23-May-13 07:03:42

Why is that worrying?

OrangeFootedScrubfowl Thu 23-May-13 07:04:11

That is depressing Ledkr.

Boyadee indicated on Twitter he was impressed by the female policewoman. According to him, one of the men went to attack her with his machete, clearly on drugs, and she stayed completely calm and shot him.

Sounds like she did what was needed as efficiently as anyone could have possibly done.

AuntieStella Thu 23-May-13 07:14:03

I've just looked up the Met response times.

For a highest category incident (which I hope this would have been classified, but that also depends on how the first 999 callers described it), the target response time is 15 minutes, and then ARV is called in by those on the scene if needed.

To get everyone there in 20 minutes looks like a very fast response.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 23-May-13 07:17:00

Am wondering if it was thought they would be less likely to attack women officers.

Obviously they weren't though.

SorrelForbes Thu 23-May-13 07:26:51

As a ex-member of the forces and also married to a serving member, I can tell you OP, you haven't got a fucking clue what you're talking about. Are you incapable of understanding that what we are fed by the media is not the whole story? Do you really think that armed response arriving in say, 5 mins, would have stopped this death?

The female office will have acted as per instructions. I would imagine that the directive was to disarm and not to kill.

McKayz Thu 23-May-13 07:32:39

Why is it depressing that female officers went? They are allowed to be police officers you know.

landofsoapandglory Thu 23-May-13 07:36:42

I'm married to a serving member of the forces as well. They aren't just sitting around with guns just incase some nutter decides to kill someone outside the gates. They have jobs to do. The people on the gate, sometimes they do have guns, can not just turn the gun on someone either, there are strict rules they have to follow.

I understand emotions are running high, but sometimes it is best to think first, post/speak later.

landofsoapandglory Thu 23-May-13 07:38:00

I think Ledkr means that it is depressing that someone on the news asked the question why female officers went.

Ledkr Thu 23-May-13 07:40:36

Thankyou landof that's obviously what I meant.
I'm amazed anyone would think otherwise. hmm

McKayz Thu 23-May-13 07:43:52

Ahhh right, that makes more sense now.

Ledkr Thu 23-May-13 07:47:42

It made perfect sense anyway! Misunderstanding didn't require sarcasm!

Op given that we don't routinely arm officers, that the horrific events were probably being reported in a somewhat confused series of messages I think 20 mins understandable if not (in an ideal world) acceptable. The officers would have to come through busy traffic. , having no doubt had to check their weapons out of safe storage, have some kind of briefing before getting there.

So easy to criticise after the event, & yes maybe strategies can be reviewed in light of this escalation of terrorism (if indeed it is as opposed to one pair of deluded fanatics). However it seems to me given the nature of the incident it is lucky no further lives were lost.

AuntieStella Thu 23-May-13 09:00:32

Thanks ledkr - I did initially interpret it as your question, not your report of a question asked by another and as it was a short post I didn't grasp your take on it. Glad it's clarified.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 23-May-13 09:02:52

I also thought it was ledkrs question but thought it seemed amazingly out of character smile

Ledkr Thu 23-May-13 10:01:59

I guess that's what I was thinking fanjo! Who moi? A bloody sexist? Think not.
Sorry for the stroppyness Ive been up with the whinger since 5.30.
It wears in a woman it really does grin

frumpet Thu 23-May-13 11:15:20

I dont really see the time to respond as an issue , ok if no-one had arrived on the scene until an hour later i could perhaps understand the Op's post .
I think that if two men set about you with machete's in the street , your chances of surviving such an attack are remote to say the least , regardless of how quickly reinforcements arrive .
How anyone could question why a female armed response officer attended , is beyond all sense , in this situation the genitalia a police officer is born with matters not a jot , as she succintly proved by shooting the bastard !

niceguy2 Thu 23-May-13 11:21:21

I'm actually quite incredulous at those who are asking why a female officer was sent!?!?!

Seriously!?! What century are they living in? I thought we wanted an equal society? She was the nearest armed response unit (presumably), she responded and by all accounts did her job and did it well.

20 mins response time is a lifetime when incidents like this happen but as a society we don't want routine arming of police. So we HAVE to accept therefore that any incidents requiring armed response will be slower.

If you want a faster response then the only realistic way this can be done is to arm more officers. It's not something I want to see despite yesterday's tragic events.

Ledkr Thu 23-May-13 12:08:25

We were not asking that niceguy I heard it asked on sky news but it could have been that they meant us there a relevance to it from a cultural sense.

The whole thing is dreadful, that young man's poor family. sad. Those women (the cub scout lady, the police officer and women shielding the body) were brave and brilliant though.

Ledkr Thu 23-May-13 12:25:51

Amazing women I agree. They should get an award.

bkgirl Thu 23-May-13 12:25:57

Why do so many people have to swear on this forum to make their point? This is an emotive issue for those of us that have lost friends or family due to terrorists but swearing feels like bullying.

I guess the IPCC investigation will determine what happened and hopefully improvements will be made. I just think there should be some people trained to take action around such obvious targets such as army barracks. This IS something mi5 and mi6 did see coming.

The bravery of the ladies involved was tremendous and I certainly agree, we were lucky no other lives were lost.

bkgirl Thu 23-May-13 12:27:16

Correction: this is an emotive issue for MOST of us (not just those directly affected by terrorism).

Pagwatch Thu 23-May-13 12:34:29

Because people swear.
It's not bullying. If you feel bullied then report the post.
If you want a forum that does not tolerate swearing, this isn't it.

Pootles2010 Thu 23-May-13 12:38:18

Assume you've seen it was 9 minutes before they had someone on the scene, 14 mins to get an armed officer there?

JakeBullet Thu 23-May-13 12:39:59

Thanks pootles, I just read that too....so NOT 20 mins then, and a rapid response to a situation. I think they did very well in the circumstances.

Pagwatch Thu 23-May-13 12:41:51

From the Guardian website

Our colleague Vikram Dodd has sent us this timeline on police reaction to Wednesday's terrorist attack. 

14.20 "We first received a 999 call from the public at 14:20hrs stating a man was being attacked". Then "further 999 calls stated that the attackers were in possession of a gun"

14.24 Armed officers ordered to scene14.29 First unarmed officers arrive: "We had officers at the scene within 9 minutes of receiving that first 999 call."

14.34 "Firearms officers were there and dealing with the incident 10 minutes after they were assigned, 14 minutes after the first call to the Met."

Here is the full statement from Assistant Commissioner Simon Byrne: 

Today our shock at what happened on the streets of our city remains.

The investigation into the shocking murder of a serving soldier yesterday is ongoing, and is of course a major investigation for us.

It is only right that the ongoing investigations are allowed to take place, and they must take as long as is needed without anyone pre-empting what they may conclude. I would ask for Londoners help and support for us to continue. Please remain calm. London is at its best when we all come together and now is the time to do that.

One point I would like to address is around some of the speculation as to how long it took the Met to respond yesterday as this incident started to unfold. We first received a 999 call from the public at 14:20hrs stating a man was being attacked, further 999 calls stated that the attackers were in possession of a gun. We had officers at the scene within 9 minutes of receiving that first 999 call.

Once that information about a gun or guns being present was known firearms officers were assigned at 14:24hrs. Firearms officers were there and dealing with the incident 10 minutes after they were assigned, 14 minutes after the first call to the Met.

What is even more important today is that we continue to work together, and we are working with our communities. We are here to listen and understand the concerns that this brutal attack will have raised.

The Borough Commander in Greenwich held a meeting with community leaders last night and we are grateful for the support from the public.

There has been an increased police presence in Woolwich and the surrounding areas overnight and this will continue for as long as it is needed. We will continue to monitor the situation throughout.

Pootles2010 Thu 23-May-13 12:42:51

I agree, must have been bloody terrifying to be that first officer there, with a machete wielding loon, unarmed, for those five minutes...

bkgirl Thu 23-May-13 12:46:31

I have coped with coped with serious intimidation from paramilitaries in the past, so really - people on a forum who are genuinely annoyed swearing, no I will not report.
Fine to be upset and disagree, I just think some other mumsnet contributors might feel bullied if they don't use this kind of language themselves (very much!) and be too frightened to contribute.

Pagwatch Thu 23-May-13 12:52:38

confused
Well if you are on concerned about the tone and think it might upset other people, not you of course, then report it.

MNHQ can't do much about it if you don't report bullying posts. I report if I think someone is being bullying or aggresive to another poster.
But I don't personally regard swearing as bullying.

AuntieStella Thu 23-May-13 12:52:43

14 minutes not just to arrived, but arrived and deployed ready to act. Good skills.

The gates of the barracks is two blocks away and not in line of sight, btw. The people there would not have been aware of the incident until they saw police arriving.

bkgirl Thu 23-May-13 12:52:53

Good, glad the commander clarified the situation - that said, I wait and independent report. That means, the video footage should show armed officers there at 14:34.

CaptChaos Thu 23-May-13 12:58:54

OP, wind your neck in.

As others have said there are rules of engagement which have to be followed. We live in a relatively civilised country, how would it be if the armed forces or their agents (MPGS/MoD Police) randomly started shooting people who were not at that moment in time endangering human life? By the time they would have got there, the attackers were grand standing, not attacking people.

20 minutes for an armed Police response is good, given the area and the time of day.

In future, may I suggest you keep your ill informed ramblings to yourself?

What would it have changed? That poor man would still be dead, they (the murderers) had done what they wanted, they stood and waited for the police. If the police had got there after 5 mins nothing would be any different, that mans life could not have been saved.

So op do tell with your extensive non existent knowledge and expertise how would you have done things differently?

bkgirl Thu 23-May-13 13:03:45

My rather cynical son just pointed out that it was almost a shame the police aimed for the legs and not elsewhere since "they will do a few years then get out".
I disagreed because I think a shoot to kill policy is wrong and due process should be observed or society would end up in chaos. That said, look what happened in Northern Ireland, look who our government ministers are - eg. Sinn Feinn in charge of education.
I wonder what future cabinet posts these guys will have - give it 20 years. Population changes often determine what happens.
For peace to come we have paid a VERY high price.

Pagwatch Thu 23-May-13 13:05:25

I expect the Met Commander will be chewing his nails fretting, will he meet the expectations of ome self important random on the Internet.

Personally I would prefer his attention was focused upon the incident rather than the pitchfork wavers who seem determined that the police must have fucked up.

lemonmuffin Thu 23-May-13 13:05:37

I think the police did the best they could in the circumstances.

Just a point: all of you who are piling in and attacking the op with such vigour, are you feeling the same kind of anger towards the murderers who carried out this horrific act?

SgtTJCalhoun Thu 23-May-13 13:09:25

My dd goes to school half a km from my house it takes me five minutes to walk there.

Those police were armed and attending within 15 minutes, from considerably more than 500 m away it appears. I actually think that's a pretty damn good response time.

Personally I think we SHOULD routinely arm our police, in the cities at least, then those on the scene could have dealt with yesterdays events quicker, but that's a whole other thread and probably not appropriate here.

TigerFeet Thu 23-May-13 13:09:28

Swearing isn't bullying. I would say that this being an emotive issue brings on the strong language alongside the strong sentiment.

Having armed police on the scene earlier wouldn't have changed anything. The attackers had made their point and were only waiting for the police to arrive.

Short of everyone, not just service personnel but everyone, having their own personal armed guard whenever they left barracks I really don't see how attacks such as these can be stopped. That poor, poor soldier was incredibly unlucky.

JaquelineHyde Thu 23-May-13 13:10:13

Lemon - what an utterly ridiculous question to pose! confused

squeelybean Thu 23-May-13 13:12:13

I think the response time does need to be discussed as a potential issue for any further attacks.

It was a prolonged attack on an unarmed man in a hugely populated area with a school very nearby and outside the grounds of Army barracks.

What if these men had turned on the crowd or entered the school?

I dont think the police can in any way be critisised but maybe they do need to look at more officers being trained with tasers or alternate methods enabling first responders to be able to do something which doesnt mean waiting for others to attend. Serving police officers must live in fear of situations like this because technically they become bystanders in the same way the public are. That doesnt fuel confidence when the public look to the police to stop a situation like this and take control immediately.

This was reported as an horrific machete attack in the first calls, that should have triggered a very quick response and if it does take 14 mins in a London borough then God knows how slow they would be in other areas of the country where we still have police stations covering vast areas of land with not much inbetween each large community.

Maybe the answer is to arm more officers but nobody wants that so the situation cant change.

I was also surprised the Barracks doesnt have armed Military police guarding it. I always thought an Army community would be seen as a potential terrorist target.

Just goes to show i know nothinghmm

bkgirl Thu 23-May-13 13:12:18

Army DID respond to attacks outside bases in Northern Ireland. So could it be that it is considered inappropriate to do in England what they did here? The point is, terrorism will dictate the response whether you like it or not. It only takes a few attacks to generate a new reality. Sure, it would be nice if it wasn't necessary but when the uk has been involved in prolonged conflict elsewhere, you simply cannot expect to stay free from attacks. The security forces have done an excellent job thus far of stopping attacks but it only takes a few to get through (as the London 7/7 bombings show).

lemonmuffin Thu 23-May-13 13:12:55

Thank you for that insightful response JH.

pooka Thu 23-May-13 13:13:30

What really hacks me off with some people is that the default knee jerk reaction is to criticise.

And then to mutter and grouse when information contradicts that position. Like in this case, starting of as op did with criticising the police/barracks response. Then to be set straight, and extra info from police commander, and no backing down or retraction or anything positive to say about the police response.

JaquelineHyde Thu 23-May-13 13:14:21

The perfect response considering the question I am sure you agree.

lemonmuffin Thu 23-May-13 13:15:41

If you did your best with your response then that's all that matters.

Pagwatch Thu 23-May-13 13:15:48

LemonMuffin

I am in strong disagreement with the OP because she started this thread, posed this question almost as that poor young man was lying in the street.

The focus should be on the horror that poor family must be experiencing and the foul mindset that led those two animals to defy every basic measure of humanity and then gloat about it.

To start a sneery, grudging snipe at the police is not helpful as far as I can see.

EldritchCleavage Thu 23-May-13 13:17:19

It's horrible. You are angry. You want everything to be simple and short and sorted out in no time like some ridiculous Steven Seagal film.

But it isn't. Fortunately, the police and army are more intelligent and have better judgment than the OP.

Pagwatch Thu 23-May-13 13:17:34

And yes, the refusal to acknowledge that the entire premis of the thread was wrong is pretty mealy mouthed too.

CaptChaos Thu 23-May-13 13:17:58

Lemon the anger I feel towards OP is because they have posted a knee jerk and ill thought out response to a tragedy.

On what planet would that equate to the anger anyone would feel towards 2 men who ran down and then hacked to death an unarmed man, in broad daylight, on a London street?

Was your question serious, or merely an attempt to goad? Is that insightful enough for you?

SgtTJCalhoun Thu 23-May-13 13:20:28

I am ex army and when I was in we had armed guards, soldiers on the gates and patrolling the perimeter, I did it myself many, many times. Now though it it quite often contracted out to civilian security companies albeit wearing uniforms, though not army ones, or MOD police.

Even when we did armed patrols there are extremely strict procedures and codes of conduct to follow. It's a very grey area as to what armed soldiers would have felt able to do in this instance.

piprabbit Thu 23-May-13 13:24:10

Given that at least one eye witness of the attack thought that what he had seen was a car accident and people helping an RTA victim (when what he actually saw was them stabbing a man), I'm not sure why the people inside the barracks would have been able to better understand the situation if they had been able to see it on CCTV.

Onesleeptillwembley Thu 23-May-13 13:26:10

Stop advertising your ignorance OP, and fuck off, there's a dear.

Onesleeptillwembley Thu 23-May-13 13:28:17

Actually I'll add; when the police come and tell you how to watch Jeremy Kyle then you can tell them how to do their job.

EldritchCleavage Thu 23-May-13 13:30:50

The Northern Ireland experience just isn't relevant here. Different threat, different times, different response.

Anyone who thinks the fight against identified, organised, hierarchical and yes, rational paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland is the same as or even of relevance to the current problem with chaotic, unknown Islamist al-Quaeda inspired nutters is just not thinking about it hard enough.

And plenty of what was done in Northern Ireland wasn't right and didn't help. I certainly would not stand happily by and let politicians, police and the armed forces turn London into a giant version of Belfast or Lurgan circa 1975. Fortunately, I don't think any of them is going to be stupid enough to suggest it.

Longdistance Thu 23-May-13 13:34:20

Maybe no one called them, thinking someone else had called them.

bkgirl Thu 23-May-13 13:34:47

Obviously I think the actions of those that murdered the young man is absolutely abhorrent. I agree, I accepted the initial reports of the timings served up by the national media as being truthful. If they are wrong - fine I will totally accept that.

I believe most police do a great job in the circumstances (examples like Sapphire I would like to think are the exception). However, if the army are not allowed to respond to nearby incidents then armed police must. If this means armed police are present at the entries of barracks then surely that is what is necessary until the threats have been lifted.

The family of the murdered young man WILL be asking questions.

These extremists could have gone in to a primary school in those 14 - 20 minutes, what then? After all, certain people with their viewpoint have executed little girls in the past for merely attending school.

Internal defence needs upgraded pronto, I have no doubt that is exactly what Cobra discussed.

bkgirl Thu 23-May-13 13:39:42

Thank you SgtTJCalhoun. Do you think armed met officers being stationed at the entries to barracks is a reasonable or feasible response to the current threat levels?

creighton Thu 23-May-13 13:44:03

does every police station have armed police? where is the nearest armed response unit based? travelling around london is hard. i would assume that the police arrived as quickly as they could. it seems that the officer who 'took action' had the situation under control.

how do you KNOW that his family will be asking questions ? what vile arrogance born from ignorance

JaquelineHyde Thu 23-May-13 13:46:10

bkgirl I think you may need to step away from this thread now.

Yes the two men could have gone into the school in that time...they could have done anything in that time. Actually they could have just gone straight to any school and murdered several children instead of the innocent soldier, does that mean that we should be upgrading security at all schools and everywhere else because of what could possibly, maybe happen at some point in the future?

There will always be threats, should we have armed police or soldiers guarding all possible threat sites?

Also you claim to know that the murdered man's family will be asking questions...How do you know that?

You also have no doubt what was discussed at the Cobra meeting today...How do you know that?

AuntieStella Thu 23-May-13 13:48:57

ARVs cruise round London or park up in areas where they think they may be close to need. Their deployment is often intelligence led (Trident), and to put their levels of activity into a bit of perspective, the lowest number of gun crime incidents in London any month in the last year was 118.

EldritchCleavage Thu 23-May-13 13:49:14

This is the Mumsnet thread equivalent of running around screaming "Aaargh! We're all going to DIE!"

Well, maybe. Or the OP could just calm down.

bkgirl Thu 23-May-13 13:51:14

EldritchCleavage, there are similarities. The republicans used the cell structure very effectively - this at first glance looks similar. Their employment of lilly whites, again used by al-Quaeda. The detonation of bombs in public places, certainly the people of Omagh would relate to the 7/7 victims.

No, of course I think it would be horrific to see London turn in to Belfast or Lurgan circa the 70's. Having lived here then, it was horrific. That said, the grim reality is that I would be amazed if this is a one off, and would far rather the security was improved with the funding necessary to have an effective and prompt response at the very least on obvious targets. No, you cannot protect everyone, everywhere but a garrison town, palace or the city of London should enjoy a ramped up protection. That is just basic.

CorrStagnitto Thu 23-May-13 13:51:34

Jeez this is the worst thought out OP ive read in a long time, talk about jumping in all guns blazing

VerySmallSqueak Thu 23-May-13 13:56:10

I think everyone ,both police and public,did what they could as fast as they could.
I think there were some remarkable acts of bravery,and the people who dealt with the scene as it unfolded will have images that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

SgtTJCalhoun Thu 23-May-13 13:57:52

I actually believe all police officers should be routinely armed, in the cities at least but I respect that many do not and understand why.

I don't think in this instance armed met officers would have helped as those in the barracks were not aware of what was happening. I do think there is a real risk of copycat attacks and I think that probably, yes, armed met officers should work in conjunction with armed soldiers to create a strenuous defence of our barracks. Ime even the youngest soldier is highly trained and instinct definitely takes over. I was only 21 and 5 ft 4, I challenged an intruder once and I knew exactly what I was doing and how far I would have gone. Luckily it ended up being a harmless incident. I think that had there been awareness of what was occurring yesterday and armed soldiers on the nearby gate were able to respond with immediacy this tragedy could have been prevented. I do not think we give our armed forces nearly enough credit or ability to protect themselves.

I am sure there are plenty of holes in what I've said and I don't claim to have all the answers but I thought very hard about it and combined with my experience in and with the forces as a child, serving soldier and then a wife this is what I think.

bkgirl Thu 23-May-13 14:09:50

Thank you SgtTJCalhoun and to all who responded to this thread.

We no doubt, all agree that the loss of this young man was just appalling and we can agree that the women who attended the scene in the immediate aftermath showed immense courage - as did the police officers.

I think, those involved with monitoring terrorism will re-assess the situation and will take whatever action they deem necessary to help cope with future attacks.

I wish everyone well.

lemonmuffin Thu 23-May-13 20:27:28

Pagwatch - thu 23-May-13 13:15:48
"The focus should be on the horror that poor family must be experiencing and the foul mindset that led those two animals to defy every basic measure of humanity and then gloat about it"

Yep, I think most of us on this thread are in agreement on that. Glad you've finally come out and said the same.

Pagwatch Fri 24-May-13 07:24:44

Unless one is astoundingly thick it is impossible to assume that i ever meant anything else.

Those who appear less interested in the bereaved family are those oh cannot wait to leap on a bandwagon which seeks to oppertunistically take a pop at the police before the incident is barely over.

But then thickness clearly bounds.

unlucky83 Fri 24-May-13 07:57:53

From what has been reported I think the police did the best they could in the situation...
Those men stood around and waited and got filmed on mobiles because they wanted as much media attention as possible - which they have got.
It looks like the poor soldier died very quickly - no matter how fast the police response was it was too late for him.
IF they had gone into the primary school - or starting attacking others -
I really believe (or hope) that we haven't become such a state of dependents that none of the bystanders would have tried to stop them ... in fact the 3 women did DO something and all that was necessary until the police arrived ...

Featherbag Fri 24-May-13 08:13:46

You sound like a total idiot OP. if you think the police response time was unacceptable, blame the government for cutting the police force. The guards at the barracks were guarding the barracks, not the surrounding streets - it could easily have been a diversion designed to allow someone to deliver a bomb to the barracks. And bottom line, the ONLY people to blame for this despicable act are the scum who carried it out.

bkgirl Fri 24-May-13 09:55:21

Featherbag, I sound like someone who grew up with terrorism and lived beside an army camp at the height of the troubles. I sound like someone who escaped a kidnap attempt by terrorists and survived more than one explosion.It's called realism. Frankly soldiers or armed police must have the authority to tackle incidents that happen near a camp - not just inside it. Real life terrorists are not from some pythonesque reality whereby they can fire/bomb/machete whoever as long as they are say 2 ft from the camp gate and those inside can only wave their guns. I understand armed police officers had to come from Charlton. What was the distance from the camp - less than Charlton I expect? This is CRAZY. This base, like others IS a target. Garrison towns need extra protection, at the very least some sort of nearby armed response.Yes I think the police are under funded, yes I think the army are under funded and yes I'd attribute this murder to those that carried it out and those who radicalised them. I have come to conclude that more lives will be needlessly lost by if the british public continue to stick their heads in the sand and don't get realistic with protecting those who have given so much. I really hope for soldiers like Lee, that cub scout leaders are NOT left to talk down terrorists whilst non-armed police sit at a safe distance. I am NOT blaming the non armed police, I am blaming politicians for the way they have enriched the banking and insurance industries whilst starving our essential services of basic funds. We were lucky these individuals decided to hang around and not attack anyone else. I am sure this is down to the brave women who with breath taking clarity managed to divert their attention. Frankly, will we always be this blessed with such heroic members of the public? Terrorism is not generally so selective.

bkgirl Fri 24-May-13 10:20:34

Incidentally, I spent 10 years working with MANY bomb victims and their families. I understand the stages of grief and the difference such a violent death or injury can make to the emotions of a person (compared to a natural death). Unfortunately do I know all too well what this soldiers family will have to go through and frankly, it just makes me very annoyed and sad. As I said my own family and friends have been through similar things. It never heals, you just learn to live with it and TRY not to let the people who did this, get the opportunity to do it again.

lemonmuffin Fri 24-May-13 21:56:40

Pagwatch: "oh cannot wait to leap on a bandwagon which seeks to oppertunistically take a pop at the police before the incident is barely over"

Okay. The above sentence is not making too much sense. Take a deep breath and have another go at explaining.

lemonmuffin Fri 24-May-13 23:39:03

Actually don't bother. After recent events it's really not worth it.

Pagwatch Sat 25-May-13 08:02:57

Are you having trouble?
I take your point about not bothering. It's a simple situation but seems to be eluding you.

A dreadful, hideous event takes place. People post on mn to express horror, revulsion at the idea that anyone could do such a thing. People also post their deep sympathy for the victim.

Instead of support or sympathy this thread is posted soley to take a pop at the police. As it was started while events were still unfolding, it struck me and several other posters as oppertunistic sniping, a spineless attempt to exploit the death of this poor man to make a cheap point.
That is why I posted 'have some respect'

You then decided that I was implying some sympathy for the murderers, a point so illogical, incoherent and ridiculous that a five year old would be ashamed to have been so dumb.

Does that help or are some of the words too big?

Onesleeptillwembley Sat 25-May-13 08:32:04

Survived a terrorist kidnap attempt? hmm

Pagwatch give up some people really are hard of thinking.

scaevola Sat 25-May-13 09:15:55

The incident was 2 blocks from the camp gates, and not line of sight.

Ledkr Sat 25-May-13 09:37:03

Does that help or are some of the words too big?
Ha ha grin new mn phrase.

Can this be deleted too. Just to post 'soldier beheaded' makes me want to cry. He was a dad and a husband. Have some bloody respect.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 25-May-13 10:29:32

Afaik he wasn't either.

It is grim title.

lemonmuffin Sat 25-May-13 14:20:21

Thank you so much for that explanation Pagwatch. I managed to decipher most of the words (me being so thick an all)

I would point out to you why you're talking total bollocks but as we've agreed, arguing the toss with strangers total twats on the internet is pretty futile at the moment given the circumstances.

Pagwatch Sat 25-May-13 16:22:10

Equally, as you say we have agreed, you could ponder why it is imposible for you to simply acknowledge that you misunderstood what I posted.
And that therefore your implication that I sympathised with the murderers was vile, stupid and unwarranted.

But I am guessing that anything as gracious and dignified as a simple apology would be completely beyond you.

Varya Sat 25-May-13 16:30:04

My understanding is that arms have to be issued to officers in an orderly way and that does take a bit of time. Condolences to the family of Drummer Lee Rigg.

lemonmuffin Sat 25-May-13 17:01:10

Nice post. Lots of lovely big words.

And completely missing the point --yet again-

Pagwatch Sat 25-May-13 17:12:40

What point did you have ? It's sort of lost admist what i think are attempts at sarcasm.
What was it that led you tsupportingly at I was sort of supporting the murderers?

Pagwatch Sat 25-May-13 17:14:51

Ah a typo. Enjoy. That will give you another shot at humour.

*that led you to suggest that I was sort of supporting the murderers.

Lazyjaney Sun 26-May-13 09:00:19

"Sure, it would be nice if it wasn't necessary but when the uk has been involved in prolonged conflict elsewhere, you simply cannot expect to stay free from attacks"

I'm fascinated by how seldom this has been pointed out over the last few days.

bkgirl Sun 26-May-13 17:42:50

The day after 25-year-old Drummer Lee Rigby was murdered outside Woolwich barracks, anxious mothers met Army chiefs to call for more protection.

The women asked for their views to be heard at the very top “because they are feeling so exposed to ­danger”. Highly trained MoD police would have been at the scene of the murder in minutes had they still been conducting patrols.

They are trained to deal with lifethreatening incidents on the perimeter of the barracks and have authority to shoot to kill, the Sunday Express can reveal.

One source claimed that had such officers been in place, they would have been able to deal with the situation last Wednesday quicker than the Met Police firearms officers who arrived at the scene within 14 minutes.

During the wait the two suspects spouted extremist propaganda to bystanders.

The source said: "MoD police radios were linked into the Met's so they would have been right on top of this within minutes and would have known exactly what to do.

"Thankfully none of the bystanders were injured but it could have been a very different story."

The large barracks and surrounding homes in south-east London were once regularly patrolled by 29 MoD police armed with pistols and MP5 machine-guns.

But the operations were gradually scaled down until two months ago when the last unarmed officers were found other work.

Following the attack, however, MoD patrols were re-introduced.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/402686/Army-wives-terror-fear-Military-families-plea-for-more-guards-after-Rigby-murder

bkgirl Sun 26-May-13 17:45:07

So, it sounds like MOD Police COULD has responded quicker had there not been cutbacks. Lets hope they stay and are present in every barracks/garrison town. Anything else is sheer insanity.

niceguy2 Mon 27-May-13 00:12:25

'COULD' being the operative word.

From what I read, the attack was over in seconds. With the best will in the world I doubt the MOD police would have changed the outcome. Maybe the response time would have been quicker and yes maybe the terrorists would have charged the MOD police and have death by cop quicker.

But it's all speculation isn't it?

bkgirl Mon 27-May-13 07:09:12

No. Response time is vital in response to terrorist attacks. We cannot depend on scout leaders to divert attention. We need a professionally trained and armed quick response. If you cannot comprehend why this is important then acquire some knowledge on the subject.

scaevola Mon 27-May-13 07:13:33

You cannot generalise about type of response to terrorist attack until all terrorists attack in the same way.

There was a stabbing in Woolwich yesterday - similar distance fom barracks. Are you levelling similar criticism at MoD for not attending that incident?

Christ on a bike ...this thread still going?

niceguy2 Mon 27-May-13 13:05:09

I'm afraid so Bossy!

BKGirl. How do you think the French should improve their response times then? I mean their soldier was stabbed whilst on patrol, armed and with colleagues. Yet it was over so quickly that his fellow soldiers didn't even manage to point their weapons at the assailant and he got away.

We live in a free society, not a police state. I don't want police absolutely everywhere let alone have them routinely armed in the UK. As such we have to therefore accept a certain level of response time when incidents occur.

bkgirl Mon 27-May-13 18:50:40

Barracks and garrison towns where soldiers and their wives and children are present need a greater ability to respond to a terrorist attack than a typical town. This is not to say we should turn everywhere in to Belfast or Lurgan circa 1970. My point was armed professionals should protect the bases - like the army wives have requested. They feel the need, I guess they have good reason.

bkgirl Mon 27-May-13 19:14:37

Barracks and their quarters used to enjoy this essential but non obtrusive protection. Cutbacks deprived them but thankfully since Lees death, the protection has been reinstated. That means the security forces see the need and the families concerned also see the need for this armed protection. If you think they are getting unwarranted protection then please - say so. Ah, forgive me - you are.I would feel rather mean if I agreed with you.

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