Tia Sharpe case

(211 Posts)
phantomnamechanger Tue 07-May-13 20:40:40

I had been wondering about this case ever since it first hit the headlines last year, as my DD is the same age as Tia
uk.news.yahoo.com/tia-sharp-hazell-took-photo-girls-body-163949011.html#R5Rq9Sd distressing details emerging of this case. poor child. I hope her killer gets a very very very long sentence. What a week, with this and the April Jones case. Sick, sick individuals.

Wannabestepfordwife Tue 07-May-13 21:49:41

Nothing has ever made me want to cry and be sick at the same time like the details of this case. Her poor parents having to hear all the revolting details no wonder her mum left in tears. I feel for the jury having to hear the details, I would find it impossible to be impartial.

fromparistoberlin Tue 07-May-13 22:03:25

yes another one who was acessing vile stuff on the net

Its just too upsetting

Footface Tue 07-May-13 22:09:55

It's really makes you wonder what is happening to the world. People argue that these things have always happened, it's just we hear more about it now. It's awful.

BriansBrain Tue 07-May-13 22:12:07

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Footface Tue 07-May-13 22:17:06

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thistlelicker Wed 08-May-13 11:31:47

They haven't found April yet have they :-( so sorry for these girls families

TheSlug Wed 08-May-13 11:56:42

it breaks my heart that April's family haven't been able to bury her sad

Sparklymommy Wed 08-May-13 12:55:40

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Frizzbonce Wed 08-May-13 13:35:53

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phantomnamechanger Wed 08-May-13 14:26:31

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Footface Wed 08-May-13 14:34:26

Had to be porn involved, always porn. I honestly don't know what to say.

April jones and Tia sharpe, but accused accessing porn and child abuse. It's makes you wonder if the Internet should be turned off for a bit

phantomnamechanger Wed 08-May-13 14:47:14

footface- I agree its about the readily accessible absolutely vile porn thats freely available and can be done in secret in your own home. It is terrifying. Abductions and murders are apparently no more common than they always were, but I do think more and more people access thsi sort of thing than ever could have in the past, simply because its so easily available. I also think it's something that SOME people move onto when they get bored of their regular porn and it's no longer exciting them (gross I know)

My vote is for an "opt in" internet porn restriction, so that the vast majority of family homes can be free of this filth

MrsSalvoMontalbano Wed 08-May-13 15:06:09

phantom yes! good idea

Footface Wed 08-May-13 15:35:25

The problem in my opinion that because its is so readily a available, 24/7 people become desensitised to it and as you say for some people they need to push boundaries further.
I also think its bigger than porn, it's a while attitude towards woman that we are objects to be used, abused and tossed away after we have served a propose. Gorno films encourage this type of behaviour, ( hostel 2) was shocking.

I think opting in is an option but I honestly think porn is so mainstream and accepted, and if you don't like it your a prude. I wonder how many people would chose to opt out.

Also money needs to be injected to accessing child abuse sites. I don't really understand how difficult it can be. Everything on the Internet is traceable surely. Do we as a society just not care enough for it to be a vote winner or is there just to many people doing it. Not sure what's worse

tomps Thu 09-May-13 15:02:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 15:13:13

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KittenofDoom Thu 09-May-13 16:19:54

No, it's not normal, but such things have always happened.

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 16:35:03

at this level of abuse/frequency of occurences? where we have two cases in the uk currently being tried for sexual assault and murder of young girls and at the same time a case iunfolding in the US where 3 young girls/women were kidnapped and brutalised over a ten year time frame.

maybe it's just that it's all being reported at the same time but i'm actually so shocked taht we have 3 stories on the news about the same kind of thing all within the last few days. never mind all the arrests WRT the yewtree investigation. it just seems so much more than i've ever known. all i seem to hear on the news over the ast few weeks/months is of men (mostly) using children and young women to get their kicks.

what the fuck needs to happen for us to get a handle on this?

sorry. i'm getting angrier teh more i think about it.

Princesspond Thu 09-May-13 16:45:55

I said to my DH last night I feel really sorry for the people that have been called to jury service, the horrible details and pieces of evidence that they have to look at. I can barely read about it, to have to sit on those jurys - I can't imagine, so upsetting.

KittenofDoom Thu 09-May-13 17:54:07

It seems more because of the level of reporting. In the past you got a daily paper and the evening news, now there is 24 hour reporting and multiple TV and radio channels. I'm old enough to remember the Moors murders back in the 60s and there have always been cases of murder and abuse of children. It is a coincidence that the TS and AJ cases have come to trial simultaneously, the murders were in August and October respectively. The kidnapping of the US women seems to me a different kind of case, and I would say this is much rarer.

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RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 09-May-13 21:23:17

Hello

Please be careful not to speculate about the accused's guilt while the trial is ongoing. We're sure nobody on here would want to prejudice the outcome of the trial.

Hercule Thu 09-May-13 21:55:32

At the risk of sounding naive I don't fully understand the legislation surrounding what can be posted on the Internet. Are we really supposed to accept there is no legislation? Is that a philosophical point or logistical one? I cannot believe the horrific things which are available for anyone to view, surely these pictures, videos etc. ( kidnap, sexual torture) are incitement to violence and actual crime, especially in light of recent news events. Are we supposed to just sit back and accept that this stuff is out there?

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 22:02:40

Hq what had i said that was in breach of guidelines? Can you email me please.

fromparistoberlin Fri 10-May-13 08:40:23

I agree with MN on this

I do think however our conversation around acessibility of vile stuff on the web is a valid one

I dont understand why something libellous gets shut down in a nano second, yet gazillions of vile sites and forums exist

some guys in the US got imnporisoned for the worst stuff ever, I mean it was beyond your worst nightmares, someone managed to catch them

do we not need a global system to manage

maybe I am being simplistic but I just dont understand why these sites continue to exist, there must be 1000 or so code words that are knows and can be used to infiltrate

anyone!????

yes, I don't understand it either fromparis

I also don't understand why I got deleted MNHQ?

Surely if you're discussing something that's already happened in the trial, it's not speculation? Apologies if I'm wrong.

scaevola Mon 13-May-13 11:13:56

SKY are reporting that Hazell has changed his plea to guilty.

Not on Beeb site yet -I'll post a link when it appears.

scaevola Mon 13-May-13 11:17:25
RandomMess Mon 13-May-13 11:22:06

Hopefully this means her family will be spared the ongoing trial and cross examination.

So desperately sad for them all sad

Vagndidit Mon 13-May-13 12:28:16

Bloody coward. Why not be truthful from the beginning if he was so concerned about Tia's family's suffering? Why drag them through the ordeal of a trial?

His sentence, whatever it is, will never be enough.

He let them go through the first 5 days though. bastard.

tiggytape Mon 13-May-13 12:59:09

He has admitted his guilt but could have done so long ago if he was thinking of anyone but himself.

The details that emerged early on in the trial were so horrific that they were actually unbearable.
He knew he'd be convicted on the evidence (he knew he was guilty and knew the case against him) but decided to put a stop to the trial now to prevent further horrendous details of the case coming out every day. Every day in court brought terrible new revelations and his letter to his father makes it very plain that he only cares about himself and what sort of time he might have in prison.

That poor, poor family. How they will ever live with what he did is unimaginable. In his letter he complains he might lose 15-18 years of his life for this - I just hope he gets a lot longer than that so the poor family never have to face him ever again. It can never be enough to make it right but it can be enough that they never have to think of him ever again. The news is reporting he could be sentenced later today.

yes tiggy that letter was all about him, and how he was going to suffer so badly for one stupid mistake WTAF?? Hoping that as his Dad made the letter public, he doesn't intend to send him 'some money' or fucking fags.

3littlefrogs Mon 13-May-13 13:36:00

He actually says that HIS world has collapsed. Not a shred of concern for anyone else then. Evil man.

Snazzynewyear Mon 13-May-13 13:39:56

The letter is just awful. Utterly self-centred. And yes, the change of plea to guilty now is clearly to try to save himself some measure of punishment rather than out of any concern for the family.

Snazzynewyear Mon 13-May-13 13:40:38

Sentencing at 2pm I think.

I can't believe he put her family through those first horrible days and then pleaded guilty. He must have thought he stood a chance of being found not guilty shock.

Snazzynewyear Mon 13-May-13 13:54:21

Well, as well as being evil and dangerous, he also seems to be pretty stupid. This last move seems pretty cynical. His defenders must have told him he was only making it worse for himself by allowing all this horrific evidence to be seen in court.

handcream Mon 13-May-13 14:53:01

There is a definite underclass now with these feckless men moving from women to woman (didnt this guy first hook up with the mother!!).

Why are they attracted to these sorts of men. And I think it is insulting to family life to called Tia his step granddaughter! She was absolutely nothing to do with him apart from the fact he was dating (if that's the right word) her GM.

Please women - stop associating with scum like this.

phantomnamechanger Mon 13-May-13 15:00:56

I think these scumbags are devoid of proper human emotions. I think he has no idea what love is, or empathy, or sympathy - and while some of that may reflect poorly on his upbringing, about which I know nothing and am not speculating, there is NO EXCUSE because as an adult, one is capable of makng choices and knowing right and wrong. Plenty of people from horrendous backgrounds go on to have good relationships, are good parents, and upright citizens. His tears have only been for himself. Tears of cowardice and fear. He must also be really very stupid and/or arrogant to think, with the weight of the evidence against him, that people would believe his load of crap story!

I hope he gets a very very long sentence and that still will not be enough compared to what Tia's family have had to go through and will suffer forever.

handcream Mon 13-May-13 15:09:40

I guess what I am saying is that man was known to be trouble.

He had already dated the mother, why was it seen as Ok to then move onto the gm? This isnt going to be popular with some on this thread but that is the first warning that something is going to go wrong. If I was dating someone who then moved onto my mother (!!) I would find that really creepy, yet no one seems to have commeted on this.

phantomnamechanger Mon 13-May-13 15:12:50

no I agree 100% with you handcream - its like something out of eastenders when everyone was sleeping with everyone else - think mitchell brothers, carol & bianca etc

totally bleurgh!

handcream Mon 13-May-13 15:22:24

Its almost like we cannot judge anyone now, the endless change of partners within this family, that poor girl stuck in the middle. Surely this set up cannot be seen as normal?

The papers have even got in on it buy calling her his step grandaughter. She was nothing of the sort.

It also brings back for me the case of Baby P where the mother brought a steady stream of scumbags home to beat the hell out of a 2 year old. And no one seemed to judge her despite the fact that the house she was living in was a pig stye, we are falling over backwards not to judge people who are clearly not capable of bringing up children.

phantomnamechanger Mon 13-May-13 15:30:36

Mmm - it's about their rights to live as they please hmm

phantomnamechanger Mon 13-May-13 15:33:21

Look at the Mick Philpott case - nasty pig of a man had 2 women either so besotted with him or so scared of him they put up with his pervy self obsessed lifestyle

it IS normal for some families, partner swapping with friends and neighbours or brothers in law etc So it IS normal for the children who grow up in it.

Footface Mon 13-May-13 16:05:49

The problem is there is this whole culture of mustn't judge people, mustn't hurt their feelings. When actually the child is the one who counts and feelings should be at the forefront. We seem to have lost our way as a society.

It is normal for life for the child but it really shouldn't be.

I also think that along with porn the increase in people smoking weed had gone hand in hand with society being the pitiful state it is

xuntitledx Mon 13-May-13 16:15:58

I'm appalled seeing the details come through of this case, it's sickening to read.

Looking at the pictures of the man though, it's quite clear that he's not "quite right in the head" and looks like a sadist - although that may be in hindsight of course.

Agree with what other posters have said, of course the current news/social media etc means we get more current news than ever before but it seems to be a trend that the level of violence and brutality of such crimes is getting worse and worse. Look at what we've seen coming out from India in recent months?! That's just one example...

RandomMess Mon 13-May-13 16:17:24

I too think he thought he stood a chance of getting away with it because he was either of a low IQ or unbelievably arrogant or perhaps both?

handcream Mon 13-May-13 16:22:56

Why do women put up with this sort of man - I am genuinely interested.

Is it that any man is better than no one? It seems to be getting more and more acceptable to do what you like, make crap decision after crap decision and dont worry, if it all comes crashing down you will be 'supported'

There are plenty of safer places to be than with men like this. Or maybe they are only thinking of themselves and the children come nowhere. Not just talking about this case btw.

Do they really stick their heads in the sand when incidents occur that dont add up. I cannot believe that the extended family and friends of Tia didnt think that what was happening, man shacking up with mother and then grandmother was OK, and that it was OK to leave Tia alone with him.

Did they really have no warning signs at all?

handcream Mon 13-May-13 16:32:13

But why as society are we allowing men like this to move around doing these things. I suspect as the days go on we will find all sorts of other things about him, other women etc.

I would love to shake these women who allow these men to worm their way into our families.

Kick them out, you are better than that, stop having children without thinking about whether this is a partner for life (I know tin head at the ready) but this is a family with ex partners and swapping of partners all with something to say about this lifestyle.

Yes, I AM judging them......

Often these families have a long history of being brought up in relationships that are dysfunctional, so it's learnt behaviour to accept substandard treatment.

Also, we don't yet live in a society where you can tell people who to sleep with, thank god!

CarpeVinum Mon 13-May-13 16:38:10

Why do women put up with this sort of man - I am genuinely interested

I think it may be a generational thing, a cyclic spiral of chaotic romantic/family set ups.

When I was very young there were refences to some members of the family where the children endured a constant stream of "uncles" and "aunties". These days any waster gets his/her feet under the table for more than 48 hours and they get immediate promotion to step something.

I think the lables (then and now) count because it attempts to impose acceptance, closeness and loyalty (regardless of behavoirs) on the younger members of the household.

Perhaps too it seeks to normalise a turnstile/recycling attidude towards romantic/bed partners and render them "judgement proof" when the actualmparent seemingly has few issues with leavng their children in the care of a relative stranger or failry new relationship with a largely unknown quantaty.

Although in some cases the " brand new step relative" is an known quantity with a rap sheet or messy family history to match, and the kids get left in their care anyway. Like "step" or "auntie/uncle" and other easily handed out promotions were an immunisation against former "mistakes".

deepfriedsage Mon 13-May-13 16:52:14

So single Mums get the blame for a Man with probable antisocial personality disorder, nice, blame the victims ! Single Mums cant seem to get it right, they either shack up with a cocklodger or need to 'move on' and stop being a sado. Sometimes, apparentlytarred with the same brush, like second class citizens, because a Marriage broke down and they are managing a more challenging life than a Mum in a,marriage. You do realise the majority of Single Mums were married once?

fromparistoberlin Mon 13-May-13 16:53:53

he has pleaded guilty

please, her mother has suffered enough, whatever we think comments blaming her are inapproriate right now, please

her statement bought tears to my eyes

and she is reading this shit, has read it

she loved her Gran, and she wanted her child to have strong relationship with her Gran

I dont know, but lets not speculate

HE did the crime, not her parents

handcream Mon 13-May-13 17:01:20

Deep - I am questioning their judgement. Not because they are single Mums but because this has happened.

Is it OK to move your 'partner' from the mother to the grandmother? Knowing his history, his drug dealing, his record with the police.

fromparistoberlin Mon 13-May-13 17:15:03

handcream

stop, please

her daughter has died, I get your point but on this threads its tasteless IMO

you know she has read what people say about her??? see her quote

'Jack, my eldest son who is three, asked me just this week if Tia was coming home from school soon. I've had to tell him the truth. It made him really cry. I told him that Tia is a star in the sky and now when we go up to say goodnight, we look out of the bedroom window and speak to the star, the one that was bought in Tia's name.

'I breathe for my children. I fear anyone hurting my boys. I fear that if anyone touches my sons or does anything to them, what I might do, I am so scared and angry. I have been so badly hurt by people I don't know and who know nothing of me

'People have said the most terrible things about me as a mother and Tia's life. I can't understand how people who know nothing about somebody can send such awful messages.

'I've been stared at and physically attacked and I know people judge me when they see me buying something nice for my sons.'

Yes fromParis you're right, it's easy to forget that the people concerned may read our musings. Poor woman.

deepfriedsage Mon 13-May-13 18:05:52

Handcream, you were going after the Woman, you didn't ask how a Man can abandon his child for instance?

gymboywalton Mon 13-May-13 20:38:01

i think the whole thing is a big mess.

but yes-the man who murdered tia is to blame-a person must be genuinely evil to do what he did.

i am really shocked by this case.

Snazzynewyear Mon 13-May-13 21:31:57

Picking up one of the issues raised on the April Jones case - there posters (including me) were asking whether jurors get counselling or any support after very traumatic cases. Apparently some jurors have been very distressed indeed by the evidence in this case. I have now read elsewhere that there's a partnership between the Samaritans and the courts now that is intended to offer support - article here. I feel very sorry for the jurors in this case, who couldn't possibly be prepared for what has been asked of them.

gymboywalton Mon 13-May-13 21:47:18

yes
what an awful, awful experience

i also think that a lot of the evidence that was given should not have been reported on
'the public' do not need to know that much detail about it

DuttyWine Mon 13-May-13 21:51:47

I read he dated her mother briefly for 2 WEEKS years before he got with her grandmother... Her mother went on to have a long term relationship with the man she has other children with and I believe she is still with. Hardly "partner swapping".

Anyway a child was murdered by a horrible man who was solely to blame so why not stop making unhelpful and hurtful judgements about a grieving family who you don't know and let them grieve in peace. I'm disgusted by some of the comments, it's easy to be on your anonymous high horse on an Internet forum... Imagine if this was your child or family? Have a bloody heart.

creighton Mon 13-May-13 23:36:31

I read that he has committed a wide range of crimes in his 37 years including assault, drug distribution, racist crimes, carrying a dangerous weapon in public. A creature like that should not have been allowed in the house, let alone shacking up with the grandmother/mother/whoever. He should NEVER have been allowed near Tia at all. People will judge families that don't look after their children's best interests.

greencolorpack Mon 13-May-13 23:47:22

I have a friend on Facebook who is a boy from my DNs school and I realised with shock that he was a friend of Tia Sharp (ie when i looked up Tia Sharp Facebook told me i had one mutual friend) I really hope he isn't accessing this news, even though he probably is... As it is all over the media. Terrible to think her classmates might be able to access these details. sad.

Thewhingingdefective Mon 13-May-13 23:56:32

I am glad that the man has changed his plea.

This case, and the April Jones case greatly upset me. I have to make a concerted effort not to think too much about them.

The Tia case disturbed me mainly because my mother has a partner that makes me feel uncomfortable and I would never leave my children in his care. I thought of him immediately when I first saw Hazel. Horrid.

Fefifo Tue 14-May-13 00:08:35

Handcream, I agree with you 100% and then more.

I am absolutely astounded by the way people seem to mitigate any blame from the parents of children in cases where a 'step' parent/grandfather/whatever has managed to inflict terrible suffering on the child like this. This man had HUGE red flags that the mother and grandmother would have been only too aware of and yet they continued to allow him unfettered solo access to this young girl. I am totally bewildered that anyone could think that a parent who allowed such a person solo access to their child should be not only without blame but be sympathised with as if they were totally not at fault themselves for failing in their duty of care towards their own child, when something so bloody predictable as this happens. If I allowed my toddler to play with the stove, I could be sorry as hell if something happened, but I doubt anyone would sympathise with me as some sort of unblamess victim of events.

Deepfriedsage- are you actually for real? You comments are deeply offensive to single mothers. You do actually realise that most single mothers would not dream of introducing a man with a rap sheet such as Hazell's to their children because they are actually capable of deducing the risks associated with men such as these? My mother was a single mother and frankly couldn't give a fuck if anyone judged her for being a 'Sado' for not moving on quickly (erm, who on earth actually does this?) and certainly would of been able to judge any'cocklodgers' as being exactly that, ad not let them within 100 miles of herself or her precious children. The vast, VAST majority of single mothers are actually capable of putting the needs of their children above those of their genitals and I believe you are being incredibly insulting to them to suggest that those who don't do so for any reason other than pure selfishness.

CarpeVinum Tue 14-May-13 00:48:08

her daughter has died, I get your point but on this threads its tasteless IMO

I am less concerned with "taste" than making a priority of Big Red Flags being noticed and acted upon. Preferable at a community level via peer pressure, cos that it is known to be relatively effective when compared to an over stretched social services.

And what is evident in this case is that it seems there were Big Red Flags that were not waved, leading to this man having unfettered, unsupervised access to a 12 year old girl. With a time frame extensive enough to do unspeakable things to her, kill her and hide her body.

It doesn't follow that I am without compassion for the mother and grandmother in this awful news story. I'm inclined to believe that they didn't make their choices in a vacuum and there may well have been a generational cycle of "fuzzy" boundaries and poverty of risk assessment when it came to prioritising the safety and well being of children in the family influencing their approach.

It certainly doesn't follow that I am blaming "single mothers". They are a large and diverse group. The vast majority of them being extremely cautious (for good reason) about who has any contact, let alone unsupervised contact, with their children. In the main I think those who would be willing to maintain a relationship between themselves, their children and their mother after said mother had begun a sexual relationship with and moved their ex boyfriend in.... in great number would have insisted that contact took place in their own home without overnight stays at granny's when she would be out at work all night, leaving said boyfriend with very "flexible" boundaries all alone with their child. I don't think the sort access to the child allowed was at all typical of the majority of single parent set ups by any stretch of the imagination.

This case is primarily about a young victim of a truly vile crime. Her story, including how she ended up in a position for this to have happened to her, has to be the priority. And how she ended up being left vulnerable and alone with this man should not be swept under the carpet unmentioned and unexamined in the name of compassion. Because there are god knows how many other potential Tia-s out there presently unscathed and if a long hard look at Big Red Flags Blindness and why they shouldn't be ignored gives them a shot at avoiding a similar fate...well then I'm all for it. Because I am not sure what else we can do given that child protection is pushed to its absolute limits in terms of work load in the face of massive under funding.

I am not without sympathy for the adults left behind to mourn. But I think the situation in terms of child protection is pressing enough that their sentiments cannot be a priority over how this happened to a very young girl and I don't think we can afford tasteful silence given the degree of harm so many children are potentially being left exposed to.

I don't think this family needs ripping limb from limb in order for the outcome of their inability to assess risk to strike a chord with a number of other parents who may reassess their own standards in terms of who gets to spend unsupervised time with their children. And some may go on to place more importance on Big Red Flags and less on labels like "step" and "partner" that infer a degree of trust that may not be earned or deserved.

I am under no illusion that a temporary increase of peer pressure will impact well established and "fixed" generational cycles of somewhat chaotic family dynamics. But I do believe there are a good number of people on the fuzzy edges that could be pulled back from similar red flag blindness in the face of social pressure to do so. If you normalise over enthusiastic trust of partners regardless of qualm inducing behaviour, then people on the cusp can be encouraged to see it as non risky. If you de-normalise it then again there will be those on the margins that will be primed to pay attention to red flags.

It's not a huge gain. But for every Tia there are scores of girls who never make the news because their abuse does not end in a trial followed by all major news outlets. They may be alive, but they are not unscathed. Some future victims could be avoided if their parents were influenced to see red flags like the ones noted in this case and insist on a higher degree of caution so they were not left so vulnerable to a person capable of abuse.

I'm open to any other suggestions as to how parents can become more sensitised to take red flags seriously without mentioning the ones that appear to have been ignored in this case. And I am not so fixed in my position that I won't take a different view if there is a way to achieve that without placing yet more of a burden on the family in question. But just to say be quiet "because they have suffered enough", while true, doesn't look like any kind of solution to reduce the risk an awful lot of children are being exposed to thanks to red flag blindness.

It's not that I don't understand, or even share to some degree, your desire not to pour salt on the wounds of a family who probably feel flayed alive with pain. But by the same token I feel there is something inadvertently wrong in saying the actions of family members that may have contributed to creating the opportunity for a man to cause a child's horrific suffering and death must go unmentioned in the name of taste, because their suffering in the now takes precedence over her suffering then.

I understand that this child can't be hurt anymore while her family still can. But it seems to me that it feeds a mindset where the powerless child, even when sexually abused, even murdered, must defer to the sentiments of her adult family members. I am not sure how to articulate it off the cuff. But for me that speaks of the dynamic we have that allows so much abuse to take place. Children are powerless, don't get to make that many of the choices they bear the brunt of living with, there is often a question mark placed over their word and their parents don't always understand the need to make a priority of a child's needs over their own wants. That's a good part of why they are the most vulnerable among us. That power imbalance is what makes them so attractive to many perpetrators as preferred victims.

We aren't exactly helping that power imbalance find a better place to sit when they die a horrible death and we still make priority of protecting the sentiments of the people who may have increased a child's vulnerability via risk blindness. Especially if it is over and above any attempt to raise awareness as to how specific choices of adults within their adult relationships can leave their children so very vulnerable to those with intent to do harm.

Very well put CarpeVinum

Thank you , you have helped to clarify a good deal of complex points.

Let's hope he gets at least 35 years today, and more importantly let's hope that 'red flag' situations don't lead to this tragic outcome again.

dontmeanto Tue 14-May-13 07:57:43

It sickens me that his reason for pleading guilty is to "prevent the family from any more distress."

Like he's some sort of sacrificial martyr.

How good of you. Monster.

hackmum Tue 14-May-13 08:09:39

"Children are powerless, don't get to make that many of the choices they bear the brunt of living with, there is often a question mark placed over their word and their parents don't always understand the need to make a priority of a child's needs over their own wants."

Yes - exactly how I feel about this case (and so many others).

fromparistoberlin Tue 14-May-13 08:40:35

"And how she ended up being left vulnerable and alone with this man should not be swept under the carpet unmentioned and unexamined in the name of compassion.

Carpe good post, and you are right. But you have worded your concerns in a far more sensitive and appropriate fashion

I know people are angry and upset, its a horrible story. But when I read her mothjers statement it made me cry

and a BOTH, AND. Its right to learn lessons, but people should also be mindful how their word their feelings

CarpeVinum Tue 14-May-13 09:00:58

I read he dated her mother briefly for 2 WEEKS years before he got with her grandmother

Many people would give pause if a their mother was in a relationship with a former school friend of theirs. Let alone an ex boyfriend.

We have some taboos for a reason. Instinctively most people react to an issue of "fuzzy boundaries". In this case the mother and grandmother's own "fuzzy boundaries" may have been an issue in the main because it could have left them unable to evaluate the risk factor contained within HIS "fuzzy boundaries", a factor which increases the risk for younger members of the family unit.

It really doesn't matter if the (non platonic) relationship was two minutes long, or two years in that context.

And in this case of all cases said fuzzy boundaries issue has to be considered a potential element in how this man ended up having non platonic encounters with three generations of females from a single family unit. The last being a non consensual savage sexual attack on the youngest and most vulnerable female leading to her murder and post mortem exploitation for the purposes of sexual gratification.

We need to hang on to some taboos. Not all should be rationalised away in the name of tolerance. Some of them are there to help us keep ourselves and our young safer.

If a man potentially has fuzzy boundaries the last thing you want to do is allow him unfettered, unsupervised access to a young girl. But you can't aid people in factoring in that additional risk factor if you dilute a taboo in the name of being "tolerant", "open minded" and "non judgemental".

Not all judgement is of the judgyknickers variety. Some of it is "using good judgement". A capacity we need to better protect ourselves and our most vulnerable family members from an increased risk of harm.

Be open minded, yes. But being open minded does not and should not require us to unzip our heads to the point that our brains fall out and splat on the floor in order to better enable ourselves to overlook and under value significant risk factors when it comes to evaluating risk and access to the powerless and the vulnerable.

As much pain as this family is in this aspect needs highlighting, explained and instinctive, qualm based reactions towards fuzzy boundaries need to be encouraged, not discouraged via minimisation.

I think we need to reflect on the possibility that the heartbroken mother and grandmother in this awful awful story are in their current state of abject pain in part BECAUSE they were exposed to minimisation that led to a quashing of instinctive reactions towards taboos. With qualms removed it is so much harder to effectively and accurately assess additional risks.

Stompasaurus Tue 14-May-13 09:08:46

Some very interesting details about her family life in this Guardian article (which I warn you also contains distressing stuff about Hazell).

Sounds like the poor child had a shit time all round, what with crack using parents at home and Hazell lurking at her 'second home' sad

handcream Tue 14-May-13 09:14:25

Carpe - you put it far far better than I did. We do need to look at the 'fuzzy boundaries'.

How someone can become a partner, step this or that just because they are dating another family member. The grandmother in particular was very defensive about this man up to the very last minute. Calling this man a step gf is just wrong. Maybe calling him this allowed the relaxation of rules about leaving him near the daughter. Especially knowing the red flags of his past behaviour.

KittyAndTheFontanelles Tue 14-May-13 09:18:51

Carpevinum, may I stand up and applaud you for that post. You have excellently articulated my thoughts.

Poor, poor Tia

Stompasaurus Tue 14-May-13 09:19:30

I know from personal experience that drug use within families does tend to lead to 'fuzzy boundaries'

And there are many many more children living lives like that, with chaotic families and lack of proper boundaries and care. Its just horrific that in this case its led to this.

Snazzynewyear Tue 14-May-13 09:48:16

This is one of those instances where the use of the term 'partner' can be really misleading. Hazell's relationship with Tia's mother, as DuttyWine said earlier, seems to have lasted for a very short time - here's info from a BBC article

"Hazell became involved in a short relationship with Tia's mother Natalie Sharp, probably lasting only a week or two, and later with her mother, Christine Bicknell, for five and a half years. He moved in a week after they got together"

To me, calling people who were together for less than a fortnight 'partners' is ludicrous. It does put the grandmother in a better light - this wasn't a short term relationship - though the speed of moving in is perhaps not ideal.

I haven't read a lot about Tia's biological father's involvement in her life. I know he has been in court etc. Did Tia live with him while questions were being asked about her mother and mother's partner's drug use?

CarpeVinum Tue 14-May-13 09:50:03

Well that report in the guardian leaves room for the question, were the mother's and grandmother's reduced qualms in the face of his potential boundry issue and criminal background in part minimised by social services descions.

I wonder if they knew. And if they did just how dire a situation was that child living in that would lead child protection professionals to believe she was safer with her grandmother despite the massive red flags her relationship with that man was creating.

And just how starved of funds, resources and manpower is social services become before there is an awakening to the reality that thr saftey net is becoming ever more hole than net. In a world where children really mattered in deed as well as idea there would have been better options available other than juggling children between known unsafe and potentially unsafe situations.

But I guess it will now follow the set pattern, child protection scapegoated becuase their options were limited and their staff overloaded and a return to business as usual where by and large children's fates are cared about only as long as their picture is on the front page and the media milks every bit of profit they can out of stories about the person that killed her and the dysfunctional family that had no clue how to keep her safe.

And then despite the "lessons learned" nothing actually changes that could really make a difference and the gov of the day colludes with govs of the past to let a poor public image of SS and child protection aid the avoidence of trying to stitch together the ever growing holes in the net.........til the next child is horribly abused and it all begins again.

Nancy66 Tue 14-May-13 10:22:05

I can think of quite a few cases in recent years where children have been murdered by the boyfriends of their mothers.

Unfortunately in some sections of society having a boyfriend will always be paramount to some women, placed far and above the needs of their own children.

Maryz Tue 14-May-13 10:40:38

It's ironic (and very sad) that in this day and age where we insist that, for example, workmen working near a school have CRB checking, where all teachers/childcare workers/youth group leaders/sports coaches etc are all checked and never alone with a child, that any random person can be left in charge of a child in their own home for as long as they like.

Parents who worry about their children going on a (highly supervised) school trip are happy to leave them with unchecked and unsupervised partners, just because they "fall in love". This isn't a criticism of any named person. It's just shocking how blinded parents can be.

And there is huge resentment if social services get involved and try to "control who parents have relationships with".

We all know that children are more likely to be abused by people they know, and yet that seems to be ignored in many households sad.

Those are very well-written posts carpe - you have summed up my incoherent thoughts in a very coherent way.

jamtoast12 Tue 14-May-13 10:52:52

He just got 38 years

tiggytape Tue 14-May-13 10:59:50

Good. And it is reported that this is a minimum sentence too.
That poor family need never see him or think of him ever again which is small comfort but perhaps the only one left to them.

ThingummyBob Tue 14-May-13 11:08:34

I agree Maryz.

I have seemingly sane and sensible friends who commit far too quickly to new partners and 'step' status.

NC78 Tue 14-May-13 11:22:34

5 years is too quickly?!

Vile, victim blaming thread.

Thanks again Carpe and Stomp. Whatever any of the primary adults in Tia's short life were thinking, her safety was clearly not a priority.

Thank god he's been sentenced to a minimum of 38 years.

38 years! Excellent,hope he's terrified. He thought he was looking at 15-18.

Thecatisatwat Tue 14-May-13 11:42:24

NC78, I haven't seen anyone blaming the victim (Tia).

ThingummyBob Tue 14-May-13 11:43:32

Not commenting on this case specifically NC78

Just a generalisation that amongst people I know many parents (of both sexes) accept new love interests into their children's lives without so much as a cursory glance over that persons past, or enough time to make any valid judgements based on behaviour and character over a prolonged period confused

These same people wouldn't dream of dropping their child off for an hour with say, an unregistered child minder.

NC78 Tue 14-May-13 11:43:34

Her mother has just had a child murdered. She is not a victim?

jamtoast12 Tue 14-May-13 11:48:55

Not read all the thread but the grandmother had been with him for 5 years so hardly a fling. Of course she would give him unsupervised access after 5 years.

It's possible she knew nothing of his past and even so he had nothing in his past to suggest he'd hurt a child. Lots of people have dodgy pasts and history of assaults etc (I work in prisons with men like this everyday) but still don't commit murder or are paediphiles. Crimes like that don't go hand in hand. He had history of assault etc yes but we don't know the details, he could have got into a fight as a teenager, not minimising it but how on earth could the family forsee this?

NC78 Tue 14-May-13 11:53:20

Yes, but the gran was with this man for 5 years.

He had a criminal record - but not for sex crimes.

Plenty of reformed criminals out there. In fact, even amongst hardened criminals, paedophiles are seen as scum, that's why they get so much protection in prison. These perverts gain access to kids because the parents trust them, happens at all levels of society. He could have done a good job of convincing the gran he was a reformed character or a lovable rogue. We just don't know.

Seems to me, that lot of assumptions being made about the mum and gran just because they are not boden clad middle class professionals. Where is the evidence they were druggies, a chaotic family or that social services were involved? I haven't seen that, or is that something I have missed?

Red flags and awareness of grooming are an important thing to raise awareness of, but there is no need to single out individual cases, especially not a bereaved family.

jamtoast12 Tue 14-May-13 11:56:11

Nc78

Exactly. Evan in the prison I work men who are even suspected of bei paediphiles are attacked with no evidence at all. prisoners are often parents too and I work with both types daily and they are completely different characters. it's odd that there was no suggestion of anything going on before 5 years which does seem to suggest something went wrong unexpectedly rather than long term grooming

NC78 Tue 14-May-13 11:56:33

Plus, if they have made poor choices, do you not think they are paying for them in the worst possible way? Do they really need to be spat at in the street and flamed on social media.

CuntChops Tue 14-May-13 11:59:19

Yeah, you missed it Nc78 Up thread there's a link to a guardian article stating the Mother was a crack head, social services were involved with the family, and Tias room at her Grans house was her 'safe haven' from her chaotic home life sad

Thecatisatwat Tue 14-May-13 12:00:14

As Carpe has said, if we just give the mother unquestioning 'victim' status, we learn nothing, we just wait to read about the next Tia in the papers. When do YOU think is the right time to start questioning the background to this crime? Now? In 6 months time? After the next murder? If criticism of this family leads to one less similar death then I'm afraid I think it has done some good - surely the Sharp family would hate any other family to go through what they are going through?

CuntChops Tue 14-May-13 12:00:57

From what I've read, his interest in prepubescent girls has been a growing interest, so there may not have been red flags in that area of his character initially.

ThingummyBob Tue 14-May-13 12:02:38

A criminal record (amongst many other things) is plenty enough for a person to never spend any time alone with my dcs.

I could possibly forgive eventually a youthful indiscretion for theft or breach of the peace type thing, if it was a one time only thing.

His list of crimes is so long its shocking. He is a second generation 'career' criminal.

So yes. Tia's gm and mother are both guilty of letting him spend time alone with her - a known to be vulnerable youngster imho.

ThingummyBob Tue 14-May-13 12:04:21

The 'alone' part is vital.

Tia's gm could easily have had her own relationship with Hazell without Tia becoming his victim.

NC78 Tue 14-May-13 12:04:39

I still think this thread is poor taste even if the mum was a crack head. She is still human even if she is a druggie.

Nancy66 Tue 14-May-13 12:06:44

The family were referred to social services on a number of occasions.

Hazell had convictions for dealing crack. The grandmother has also admitted that he did drugs in her home and drank heavily. To suggest she didn't know what he was like is a bit of a stretch.

ThingummyBob Tue 14-May-13 12:14:09

There are very high profile cases where the poor choices were made by very affluent parents NC78. Not sure of your point there tbh.

Social status and class divisions make no difference when a parent makes poor choices on behalf of their dc.

I can live with poor taste if even one parent reads the thread and makes a different choice for their child.

NC78 Tue 14-May-13 12:19:00

Growing up around drugs is a awful environment for a child - her family are responsible for that.

They are not responsible for her abuse and murder. Any child can be the victim of a paedophile, it goes on everywhere.

BarbarianMum Tue 14-May-13 12:19:26

Well he's got 38 years.

I am a bit puzzled though. The judge said (quoted on BBC News website) that he couldn't make it a whole life tarrif because he couldn't be sure the crime was sexually motivated or premeditated.

I can understand the premeditated bit, but not sexually motivated?? Are we supposed to believe he killed her for other reasons then just decided to abuse her?

If anyone can throw light on this aspect of the ruling I'd be very grateful.

fromparistoberlin Tue 14-May-13 12:24:38

"if we just give the mother unquestioning 'victim' status,

Thats not what I am saying, and I do share some of the concerns Carpe said.

But given she (Tias Mum) has spoken publically about how she has been criticised very strongly for this, some sensitivity is in order

for all know she will have google alert for her daughters name, and given this thread is named after her daughter...

It reads a bit like expressing an opinion online (and they are valid opinions) is so important it trumps the feelings of a bereaved mother

anyway, 38 years minimum! Yay you sick fuck. Lets hope he dies there
and someone fucks him over in the showers

handcream Tue 14-May-13 12:30:33

No one wishes this situation on anyone but we do need as society to try and address why this happens and where things are going wrong.

There seems to be parents, step parents, step gf, ex partners, other children, social services and drug taking in this case. But really I cannot believe as one poster said that perhaps the family didnt know his history - really!!

fromparistoberlin Tue 14-May-13 12:34:21

I also think its intetesting that Hazell had a dad in prison, a prostitiute Mum and went to care homes when he was a baby

no sympathy, but the fact that prisons are chocca with people that ended up in care system depresses the fuck out of me

ThingummyBob Tue 14-May-13 12:45:24

Yes we do.

Not just for children, but for victims of degrading and abysmal abuse of all ages.

To have a drug using career criminal in sole responsibility overnight for a non-related vulnerable teen girl is odd in any set of circumstances.

racmun Tue 14-May-13 12:46:27

I feel heart sorry for Tia's family regardless of what her family are etc they haven't a daughter in the most terrible circumstances. It could have happened to a family which isn't as chaotic- their lifestyle shouldn't cloud a wide issue here.

It seems that they possibly did know of this man's criminal history but he could well have been selective in what he told them.

If he did have previous sex offences and he didn''t tell them ( I doubt any paedophile actually would) then how do you know??

That's the major problem non of us can just do a crb check or check the sex offenders list to see if someone is on it. That is was Sara Payne has been campaigning for, for years.

Paedophiles are cunning and some will work there way into a family for YEARS. If anything is to come out of this tragedy then surely they need to look into the whereabouts of paedophiles being known.

My SIL is a police officer and one of her colleagues at work felt uneasy regarding a particular neighbour. Anyway she did an off the record check and low and behold he's got previous sex offences on his record and is on the register. She can't warn her other neighbours as she'll lose her job but has just withdrawn from socialising at events he's at. How awful for her to watch him being friendly with children and their parents.......

jamtoast12 Tue 14-May-13 12:56:17

The judge said "none of his previous convictions were serious and that he had a history of suicide and self harm" - there was no mention of any history of paediphilia until this happened. Tbh I'm guessing something happened fairly recently in their relationship as up until this point the reports all say that they did live as a unit and that Tia doted on him as did he.

It doesn't sound at all like he groomed her over many years? It sounds like a genuine relationship which turned at some point, presumably as she got older. It would be very very unusual for someone who has always had such interest in children to not have acted long before the 5 years they've been a family.

KittenofDoom Tue 14-May-13 12:57:49

"I can understand the premeditated bit, but not sexually motivated?? Are we supposed to believe he killed her for other reasons then just decided to abuse her?"

I think the distinction is that some murderers get off on the killing itself, that's what gives them sexual satisfaction. Whereas others kill to stop the victim from telling what's been done to them. In thid case there wasn't enough evidence to show how or why he killed her, so he got the benefit of the doubt.

CalamityKate Tue 14-May-13 14:29:53

Correct. It was on Jeremy Vine earlier.

It's the difference between killing her because he was scared she'd tell what he'd done, and killing her for sexual thrills.

carpe your posts have had me nodding furiously.

gymboywalton Tue 14-May-13 14:54:52

i think we need to be teaching young girls to have high expectations too.

what would anybody see in a loser like him anyway? not good looking, a criminal, no job, not clever...and yet two women in the smae family had a relationship with him.

we need to be teaching girls that they should expect more-that they don't have to put up with being treated badly.
you see it on here-women with men who are absolutely HORRIBLE to them, and then they will reveal tht they have only been together 4 months or something ridiculous.

it's all do to do with self esteem-you need to feel that you are worth more to get more .

Nancy66 Tue 14-May-13 15:06:32

gymboy - for many women it's about having a bloke, any bloke, and it doesn't matter how much of a useless waste of space he is.

gymboywalton Tue 14-May-13 15:11:37

i know and we need to address that i think. we need to teach kids that it is better to be alone than to be badly accompanied.

KittenofDoom Tue 14-May-13 15:22:57

<disclaimer> I do not watch Jeremy Vine. I worked it out all by myself grin

handcream Tue 14-May-13 15:33:34

How I agree with you Gym. What are women doing with men like this?

I did have a close relative who was with someone who treated her really badly, verbal and we think physical abuse but we never saw any visible signs. Think it was more verbal and some pushing and shoving tbh but she stayed with him, started moving away from her family, lying to cover for him, and it got so bad that eventually we felt we needed to back away from the situation and leave her to it as it affected the whole family and she defended him all of the time.

Eventually he decided to end it and that was that. She claimed she loved him. Maybe she did, but he certainly didnt feel the same......

handcream Tue 14-May-13 16:00:25

But at the risk of introducing some 'bloke' to your family? Not necessarily talking about this case btw.

Allowing your children to be with someone who takes drugs, has been in jail, and drinks heavily? Where is the reasoning behind it?

Its Ok to be a single parent. You will be supported. Why do so many women hook up with men like this?

Nancy66 Tue 14-May-13 16:04:44

You can't apply intelligent, well-reasoned, practical logic to people who just don't think in that way.

You're talking about families for whom this is a normal way of life.

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 07:30:08

I've been shocked by this case and how the sheer evilness in it. The poor child. I can't understand how the parents and grandmother allowed a drug addict and criminal into their family. I read that the drug taking in the family was well known to the authorities. Why are people like this allowed to be looking after children. What has gone wrong to have made families like this? The poor child went through horror. What will be done to sort out the other families that are like this?

CuntChops Wed 15-May-13 07:34:22

There are thousands of families just like this, they don't turn to child abuse and murder.

If you took children off of every family with a man with a criminal record or a Mum with a history of drug abuse, the system would collapse.

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 07:39:14

I feel sorry for the children living in households where the adults take drugs/drink/abuse them. This is so terrible. The children should come first in this. The children are the adults of the future and should be in nurturing and caring families.

Someone said the grandmother is on This Morning today.

Briefly saw the mother on Daybreak. She had 'no idea' he was dangerous confused

RooneyMara Wed 15-May-13 09:13:52

Oh God what are they doing talking to them on telly. like that is going to do any good.

Have these people got no dignity? Clearly not.

There ARE people who stay with men who attack them ,repeatedly, and I don't know why they stay. I was talking to ds1 last night about the man I left when I noticed him drinking too much and acting strangely.

We only found out later that he was a dangerous abuser, when the partner he had left for me got in touch 'to make sure he wasn't still seeing me' - he had gone back to her and she had allowed him back, indeed welcomed him. Despite years and years of him beating her up, even being arrested, and I have NO idea why on earth she would want to be with someone like that.

I thought he was great at first. But knowing what he is capable of - there's no way on earth that I would allow him near my children. I cannot understand people who do tbh.

CuntChops Wed 15-May-13 09:26:36

It leaves a really bad taste in my mouth that the family are going on daytime TV. Fair enough if you're starting a campaign like Sara Payne, or Kate Mcann. Otherwise, it smacks of cashing in.

Snazzynewyear Wed 15-May-13 09:36:48

I don't understand what is being achieved by them going on tv either.

RooneyMara Wed 15-May-13 09:40:31

for the telly company, ratings. for the family - maybe they want to try and defend themselves? But it just feels so bloody inappropriate.

changechangechange Wed 15-May-13 10:06:07

How dare a bereaved family not behave in the One True Dignified Way. hmm

deepfriedsage Wed 15-May-13 10:07:24

Yes the chance to put their story across, the press are not known to tell the whole story. They are grieving and traumatised,if it helps them then I can't see the problem. Smacks of jk and inappropriate to me.

CarpeVinum Wed 15-May-13 10:42:50

there's no way on earth that I would allow him near my children. I cannot understand people who do tbh.

On an emotional level I think it is always going to hard to understand. Mainly because we react to the details with our own mindset of what is a red flag and what is an appropriate response to a red flag and can't comprehend such an automatic process not taking place.

If you take what was known to the family about Hazell prior to his inclusion in this child's life what would happen in your average family is basically a list of questions where we get the answer so fast we don't even notice the question process.

Does this person have good judgement ?
Does this person have a solid sense of boundaries?
Is this person at risk of being in an impaired state due to substance use/abuse around my child?
Is this person able to put my child's needs before their own wants ?
Is this person capable of losing control and acting in a violent manner ?
Is the person able to consistently provide a good role model ?

...stuff like that.

But as to why a family would not undergo that rapid fire internal questioning - insta answer process...well they would not be able to answer those questions positively about themselves in the main, let alone any outsider. Which could mean either

on a sub conscious level they avoid such questions because it causes self doubt about one's own status as a safe person to be in contact with, let alone responsible for, a child. It think it is easier to understand when you put it in the context of ...in order to instigate any kind of risk assessment on an outsider a relative would face having to recognise themselves as not a good enough parent/person in loco parentis becuase they too "fail" on the checklist of questions. I think that is probably an unbearable proposition and showing tolerance ("I took him as I found him" - alla Tia Sharp's grandmother) in the face of certain facts, may be indicative of a conscious or sub conscious defence against having to recognise their own parental/familial shortfall.

OR

the questioning process wasn't triggered because certain behaviours that your average gen pub would find red flaggy (at best) do not register as causes for concern because those behaviours have become normalised within that family. That normalisation could be the result of a multi generational issue or it may be a first generation absorption due to being plunged into an emotional/physical environment where previous norms are subdued and eroded by the surrounding prevalence of "the new normal".

See what I mean ?

handcream Wed 15-May-13 10:52:10

Just watching the interview with the grandmother. Carpe is right. Defensive, said she didnt notice anything out of the norm with Hazell despite knowing his past and how he had behaved because in her circle this WAS normal.

deepfriedsage Wed 15-May-13 10:56:49

Watched This Morning too. Gm thought the drinking, drugs and criminal record were normal to her.

I think PS went too far rbepeating the google searchwords.

GM comes across as very traumatised and numb.

handcream Wed 15-May-13 11:10:30

I think to her what he was like, the drug taking, the prison record, the daughter who was taking drugs, the fact that the family were known to ss's, all of this was just taken for granted by her and seen as normal.

NC78 Wed 15-May-13 11:34:17

It isn't normal, but none of that is a red flag for murder or paedophilia.

It's almost like they have been treated like they have brought this on themselves, I find this really cruel. The way they have been treated by the media is disgusting. They have been ripped apart to make some political points about the 'underclass' and 'broken britain'. So much so that the mum has been attacked in the street. Yes, they may have had their problems, but they have been demonised IMO - to they point where they are being treated like they are devoid of human emotions. Look how they were treated by the justice system - the pictures of Tia that were held up in front of the whole court, in front of the public gallery, and in front of Hazel so he could look at them one more time. Awful.

There may have been signs that he was an abuser that she just couldn't read. Some people are easily manipulated and don't have the ability to see through otheres at all, others can cold read people to such an extent they make money as false psychics. I can read peole like books and have found it quite painful to watch people being taken in by certain wrong 'uns. And you can rarely get through to someone who is in love. Only an abuser is responsible for abuse.They convince people they are normal until they are trusted with their kids. That's how they do what they do. And a lot of them are not drug users with criminal records. If you think you can protect your children from sexual abuse by avoiding drug users and known criminals, you are mistaken.

CarpeVinum Wed 15-May-13 11:57:20

It isn't normal, but none of that is a red flag for murder or paedophilia

You are not supposed set your red flag alert meter to "eleminate paedophiles and murder risk" you are supposed to set your red flag meter far far far far lower than that.

To say there was no evidence of what he was to do belies the reality that his access to this child could have been eleiminated had they been willing or able to set their alarm system at a much lower (and more average) setting.

They say there were no red flags for what he was to do. However he took the bathroom door off. In house frequenteed regularaly by a devolping young girl who was regularrly spending the night alone with an unrelated man. To you or I that might give pause. We don't know what red flags were waggling madly that this family didn't see becuase of red flag blindness.

Only Hazell is responisble for her viloation and death. It does not follow that that her family have no culpability in allowing him full access to her. Becuase while they may not have been able to percive him as a sexual/murder threat his known history was enough to set of a normal alarm system just on the basis of "good drug free role model".

If we refuse in the name of taste and kindness and not wanting to pour salt in a wound to underline where a decent setting of "alarm bells" meter is and demonstrate what really must be viewed as a red flag in order to minimise harm to children .... then albeit it with the best of intensions we are inadvertantly colluding with the people who would prefer that ever more parents lower the bar of access to their children to "well he doesn't seem like a murderous nonce to me".

handcream Wed 15-May-13 12:03:09

NC78, you seem to be excusing them as not being able to see the red flags. What would a red flag be to enable this family to think they shouldnt let this man in - another god forbid murder?

I do think this was a disfunctional family with SS and ex partners all over the place - for them that is normal. What I am suggesting is how do stop this happening again?

Kormachameleon Wed 15-May-13 12:04:41

It's just so sad that for some families drugs, criminal records, social services etc are just normal

The do-gooders can be as pc an liberal as they want but at the end of the day, had this family not lived this way that little girl may still be alive

It breaks my heart to think how much some children have that we take for granted and yet some children have the most awful lives

And the depressing thing is its a vicious cycle, generation after generation of drug abuse and criminal activity and multiple partners

handcream Wed 15-May-13 12:13:20

Yes, time and time again the children that people have are just forgotton, they can take drugs, move in different bloke after different bloke and god forbid anyone judges them for their choices.

They can do what they like.

And their children are likely to copy their irresponsible beahviours because actually - no one will say anything.

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 13:01:21

Have this family ever worked a day in their lives? Did they complete schooling?

Nancy66 Wed 15-May-13 13:05:20

The grandmother worked and Hazell did too. Not sure about Tia's mother.

I don't think unemployment is the issue here, rather poor judgement.

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 13:07:41

Just trying to understand the background the family comes from. Some people can't get work but do all they can to find a job. Just wondering if the tax payer is supporting this family

Kormachameleon Wed 15-May-13 13:08:26

Please don't turn this into a benefits / unemployment issue

It's a boundaries / abuse / lack of education and stability issue.
It is entirely possible that all of those worked full time yet still abused substances and lacked good judgment

NC78 Wed 15-May-13 13:08:28

Have this family ever worked a day in their lives? Did they complete schooling?

How is that at all relevant to a murder?

Do we have deserving and undeserving murder victims now?! You only deserve symapthy for your child being murdered if you have paid enough national insurance?

Her gran was working nights in a care home when it happened, was she not?

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 13:09:29

Just trying to understand the situation the poor girl was placed in. I'm not making an argument about benefit culture

Kormachameleon Wed 15-May-13 13:10:16

Does it matter ?
Who is funding them ?

A girl has died in the most horrific circumstances

Someone's daughter , could be yours or mine
There but for the grace of god

Would them being financially independent and employed have changed the outcome ?

Kormachameleon Wed 15-May-13 13:11:49

The girl was in a situation where drug abuse and social services / criminal activity and lack of good judgment was present

Emolument status of those involved is neither here nor there

Kormachameleon Wed 15-May-13 13:12:09

employment

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 13:12:19

I'm asking on their social situation. This is a valid thing to ask about. I wouldn't have anything to do with a drug addict as I wouldn't put my kids in the situation of being with type of person

NC78 Wed 15-May-13 13:19:04

What about all the kids abused by teachers, priests, scout masters etc.

You can't prevent your kids from being abused by avoiding scummy boyfriends. Some of these men (and women) are suppossed pillars of the community. The parents trust them, and have no good reason not to. Look at Vanessa George, fully qualified, CRB checked, experienced nursery nurse.

A pot smoking alcoholic is a crap role model and I'm not condoning doing drugs whilst raising kids, but it doesn't follow that these blokes are sexual predators. It may follow that the kids take up that lifestyle and under-perform in life, which is sad, but it doesn't mean these parents are at fault when their child is killed. This is still a harrowing, horrific loss, and they are still suffering, whatever their lifestyle.

handcream Wed 15-May-13 13:20:25

I think drug abuse, being in jail,and being with your daughter before you is far more important than being employed! And fgs - would anyone think this family set up is normal!

This family had real lack of judgement and for seeing what is in front of their eyes. The daughter in particular is known to ss and the police attending violence in her current home hence Tia fleeing to her GM.

TBH - I am getting fed up of trying to find reasons why people do what they do. The GM on This Morning was clearly lacking in geninue common sense. She really couldnt see any red flags to having this man around, right up until the end she was defending him and her choices until of course they found Tia.

CarpeVinum Wed 15-May-13 13:20:27

Just wondering if the tax payer is supporting this family

My red flag blind family was of the naice middle class variety. As a member of the hobbling waddlers saying quack, I am drawn to my ilk. And we are not quite as rare as you might want to believe.

When you make it about poltical point scoring and political ideology you run a massive tank of self interest over the backs of children who need you to focus on where the important issues really do lie.

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 13:22:01

I'd be asking the same questions of the other people you give as examples.

NC78 Wed 15-May-13 13:24:27

So how do you prevent this?

There will always be people who lack judgement and are manipulated by abusers? How do you prevent this?

Kicking them when they are down won't solve anything.

creighton Wed 15-May-13 13:27:16

there is no 'there but for the grace of god' it was not bad luck that gave this creature access to Tia. the poor lifestyle of the whole family gave him access to her. there were no red flags for paedophilia but drug taking, excess drinking, a criminal record as long as your arm is a huge red flag for not allowing this person across your threshold, let alone near your children.

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 13:30:50

To prevent such terrible actions it is important to ensure that the parents and family are proper people. This means they aren't drug addicts, violent and all other types of behaviour that isn't normal. imho this is done by education, having a work ethic and living respectful to those around.

NC78 Wed 15-May-13 13:32:19

Vanessa George had a work ethic, so did the working parents who left their babies in her care.

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 13:33:31

I would call what she did a work ethic

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 13:34:06

typing - I wouldn't call what she did a work ethic

NC78 Wed 15-May-13 13:36:47

She had worked all her life, and paid taxes.. didn't mean she wasn't evil. Is my point. A work ethic prevents child abuse, that is ridiculous.

Working, non drug using, outwardly resoectable men and women won't abuse your kids -- very dangerous notion

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 13:38:12

I can't follow you - how can you be saying what she did was somehow her job?

LineRunner Wed 15-May-13 13:38:57

The GM worked nights as a carer, I read, which is why Tia was left with Hazell.

Maryz Wed 15-May-13 13:40:40

NC78, you mention abuse by teachers etc. I would hope this is decreasing with more publicity, guidelines, checks etc. Any adult working with children now knows they should never be left alone with a child. Few parents leave their children with unchecked and unqualified adults in any setting these days, simply because it is illegal.

But the one place children should be safe, their home, is the one place where many of them have contact with and are under the sole care and control of unqualified, untrained and unchecked adults.

Abuse in the home will sadly continue long after it has been largely eliminated in child care/school/activity settings.

Carpe's "red flag blindness" can't be dealt with without a degree of interference inside the family home that would be greeted with horror as an interference with human rights.

And again, as I said above, my comments aren't purely about Tia's family, but about child protection in general.

NC78 Wed 15-May-13 13:41:17

I didn't say that, I said she had worked all her life. You were the one equating workshy with being a potential child abuser. I can't see how the two are linked at all.

Maryz Wed 15-May-13 13:43:45

I also think this isn't a work/benefits argument.

handcream Wed 15-May-13 13:46:01

NC78 - I am not following you either. You seem to be making excuses for this family, the drug taking would be the biggest red flag of all for me along with being in jail!

What if we heard (and I am not sure one way or the other) that the family are being paid for being touted around the media? Would that be seen as Ok to you?

There are large amounts of families living like this, with endless ex partners, drug taking and children just being left to bring themselves up.

My DM volunteers in an Inner London school where half the children come having not had anything for breakfast. Some of them walk to school themselves at 5 and 6 and say 'Mum's still in bed' .

Instead of making excuses for them how can we make things better and make some of the things they do become less acceptable (and letting a 5 year old walk to school without breakfast because you cannot be bothered to get up is totally unacceptable!)

NC78 Wed 15-May-13 13:47:59

I hope you are right about abuse in institutions maryz.

We can't take the kids from every parent lacking judgement, due to drugs etc, surely? Are there even enough care homes/foster parents out there?
And most kids with addict parents won't end up sexually abused - the two just happened together in this case. You won't identify most of the kids at risk of sexual abuse by taking the kids of addicts, criminals, women with multiple partners etc.

And some parents with red flag blindness will be outwardly quite sensible and respectable. How do we identify these? And prove it? There has to be proof before you can remove a child.

NC78 Wed 15-May-13 13:50:30

One of my friends teaches in a similar school, and I have heard similar things. I don't know what the solution is.

Maryz Wed 15-May-13 13:55:18

You can't just walk in and take every child who lives in a chaotic home.

Social services try to walk a fine line between protecting children and the right of families to privacy. They don't always get it right, but get criticised whichever way they lean.

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 13:56:44

I was just asking on their social situation - this seems a normal question imho

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 13:59:09

I'm not putting workshy together with child abuse - how can you write that nc78? It's very clear what I have said

Maryz Wed 15-May-13 13:59:54

You can't make people into "good" parents. Or stop people having children because society thinks they won't be good enough. You can't introduce compulsory police checks and safeguarding courses for all parents. There would be uproar.

And who would decide what is "good enough".

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 14:03:36

Not being a drug addict or substance abuser for a start would be helpful to being a good parent

NC78 Wed 15-May-13 14:06:09

You can't just walk in and take every child who lives in a chaotic home.

I know, that's what I mean. I'm not sure this could of been prevented. And people with no insight into red flags won't always be capable of developing it.

LineRunner Wed 15-May-13 14:13:30

Some kids are substance abusing at 13 or 14 because of their home lives. I don't know what the answer is either.

Other than giving everyone a 'state sponsored' mentor or parent-substitute to support and monitor them and report back to Big Brother and that would be completely bloody crackers.

Like Maryz says, some professionals have to walk the tightrope of not enough or too much intervention in family life. And I agree with Carpe, some people judge risk differently because their 'normal' is sadly a pretty damaged picture.

handcream Wed 15-May-13 14:16:26

I know what you mean NC78 in that of course we cannot going storming in and judging what is right and wrong in a home. How would we do it - a panel of 'experts!'

However I do think that it is now more acceptable to do what you like, move from partner to partner, have many children all by different men, have children without any visible means of support and you wont be judged.

Not working and lazing around in bed not bothering to take your children to school is awful and shouldnt be seen as acceptable and as just one of those things.

KittenofDoom Wed 15-May-13 14:23:04

flanbase As far as I understand it, everyone involved in this case has a job.

flanbase Wed 15-May-13 14:27:08

ok - thank you for informing me. I was just asking on their situation.

handcream Wed 15-May-13 14:35:49

So, instead of saying what we cannot do and excusing some pretty poor behaviour what can we do?

aliasjoey Wed 15-May-13 14:46:35

great posts from carpevinum

I'm not clear if Hazells behaviour worsened over time? Because if they had been together for 5 years is it possible that originally he wasn't too much of a red flag, it crept up - but so slowly and insidiously that no-one realised?

5 years is a long time, and I guess anyones defences would gradually get lowered, as it became normalised. (Sorry if this already known, I haven't read all the details)

deepfriedsage Wed 15-May-13 15:21:35

I can't believe the level of focus on working and the Women, where is the discussion about the Father, grandfathers, paternal GM? All the focus on the two Women who were there for thechild. The Women were taken in, it wasn't them it was Hazel. The focus should be on dealing with these anti social personality predators.

handcream Wed 15-May-13 15:57:46

The father had moved onto with someone else so had the mother and grandmother. I expect there are lots of step this and that but no one really noticed or said anything - or maybe had their own lives to lead.

deepfriedsage Wed 15-May-13 16:01:01

The Father had moved on and had his own life to lead, omg, I can't believe you think its ok for a Father to abandon his child.

handcream Wed 15-May-13 16:07:00

I think it is absolutely disgusting. Sorry, I didnt make that clear. All these people leaving partners, moving onto to other people, having children with them and then moving on. Its horrible. No wonder the children get forgotten.

If I was the father I would be horrified that a man who had issues with drink and drugs and had been in jail (and dated both the mother of my child and the GM) thought it was OK to be around Tia.

donnie Wed 15-May-13 16:24:12

It seems to me that everyone who was supposed to be a part of Tia Sharp's life chose something or someone else over her. That is her tragedy. her biological father had not seen her for several years (although he managed to turn up in court....how interesting).He chose his other interests over her.

Her natural mother chose a crack pipe and a new boyfriend over her.

Her grandmother chose Stuart Hazell, knowing - KNOWING - that he was a convicted repeat offender with a drug habit, a drink habit and violent tendencies, and also knowing that he had removed the bathroom door, drilled holes in the wall , yet she persists in her stance that 'there were no clues'. Of course there were clues - including the ghastly, sordid truth that he had slept with the mother as well. She chose him, willingly.

They ARE all somewhat culpable in my opinion because they all neglected her and put their own sexual interests before a child. Shame on them.

handcream Wed 15-May-13 16:46:55

I agree Donnie - but dare you judge their choices in partners and lifestyle? There are no real boundaries here. Do what you like. No one will judge you.

I didnt realise the father hadnt had any contact for a number of years. Its funny how people can get all moral over something like this.

Whilst the only person who murdered Tia was Hazell this disfunctional family need to take a careful look at their own lifestyles and choices. They put themselves first as is often the case in these tragic stories. The children come way down the list.

CarpeVinum Wed 15-May-13 16:47:57

I know, that's what I mean. I'm not sure this could of been prevented. And people with no insight into red flags won't always be capable of developing it.

Quite.

The system couldn't cope with drastic intervention in terms of generationally dysfunctional families with fixed risk blindness. It is barely coping now,

But all multi generational chaotic families start somewhere. Where the heart of the matter is moderate to severe mental health or health issues unless we shore up the agencies in those areas they are more or less lost to a halt or a reversal. However, a fall into a chaotic family state is not a given, even when somebody is teetering on the cusp.

I'd suggest something like one prong going for developing minds and one going for adults.

Perhaps something like the Dutch sex/relationship ed programme "Long Live Love" in schools. Reworked for micro-cultural relevance if needed to address the areas where it might not be clear to youngsters what constitutes "good" and healthy love and what does not. With a structure that aims to give them clear strategies to identify "iffy" areas and the how/why of walking away before they are in too deep. Not least to counteract the bollocks so many of them are exposed to just from mainstream entertainment producers, let alone less than wonderful examples of love in their own home or community. Start it young and keep it going as part of FE or HE. If the gov is going to raise the leaving age it might be worth exploiting that to maintain attention during the timeframe when so many make their first forays into fully fledged relationships and become young parents. I personally wouldn't have any issue extending the programme to challenge to "Love is Enough and An Answer To All Critisim In its Own Right" and including "How Can I Be a Good Parent When I Become One" in that package that includes illustrating red flags and sensitising young people to their importance, their outcomes and where to calibrate their alarm system. Others may disagree.

I'd like to see something like that backed up with a beefed up school pastoral care system that can refer kids in a timely manner if it results in them bringing up issues in their own lives. (And I aplogise to people working in schools for suggesting that once again they get even more mission creep dumped on them)

For adults I think a social challenge to "victimhood as proof of non culpability due to lack of intension" is needed. While its intensions are good it lowers the bar among the "cusp walkers" and can sleepwalk them over the edge towards a fixed state of dysfunction while they chunter "don't judge me! It's not my fault!! I love my kids and I'm a good parent
despite the plethora of evidence to the contrary that demonstrates my standards and outlook need a reality check ". Using peer pressure and an unapologetic exploitation of most people's desire to be seen as a good parent. I'd pick social media/netowrkd as a medium because it is conversation based not just "talk at you" based and forces a "digestible" chunks approach. It would need to done with nuance, not a sledge hammer. I have no idea who you could put in charge of coordinating the seeding of something like that. Perhaps a collaboration between various children's charities and parent based business like mumsnet, netmums, that sort of thing?

It's not a super cheap solution, but I think tiny austerity budgets availble wise it might not be tood bad (but then I failed my maths o level so I cpuld be way off)

Good enough ? Anything like enough to do more than grab back just some future victims of families who are dangling just over the edge ? No.

Better a deeply polarised row after each and every tragedy ? Possibly.

handcream Wed 15-May-13 17:05:50

At last - someone saying what we can do going foward as opposed to trying to make excuses for their behaviour.

I dont think this family going in front of the media anymore is a good idea.

They come across as defensive, very opinionted about what they would like to do to Hazell but seemingly nothing whilst he was around them!

If only people started taking responsibility for their own decisions as opposed to blaming others or only thinking of what THEY want and need.

These people arent victims and if we portray them like this I believe we will only allow them to become less and less associated with what they choose to do and more likely to blame others for what befalls them

deepfriedsage Wed 15-May-13 17:25:24

Yes, Tia's Dad and Paternal GD, found the train fare to go to court. I remember him being criticised for not wanting to spend holiday spending money on Train fare to help look for his then missing child. As I say, all the focus and blame went on the Women.

handcream Wed 15-May-13 17:33:14

How awful. I think he needed to go to court because if he hadnt bothered to do that he would have been run out of town.... How smug and moral he is now and how opinionated.

When is it going to become unacceptable for ANYONE father or mother to leave a relationship (if even it was one in the first place before they had a child!) and convienently forget their responsibilities.

You only have to watch Jermey Kyle (and its like a bear pit there!) to see that there are 100's of disfunctional families only thinking of themselves and claiming they would 'die for their children' but actually doing the complete opposite and not thinking of anyone but themselves.

handcream Wed 15-May-13 17:35:12

I wonder if he was one of those people banging on the prison vans as they go past outside court. I always wonder who does that.

Morally outraged but couldnt be bothered to look for her or see her for years.

donnie Wed 15-May-13 17:57:07

Quite, handcream - apparently he had not even bothered to send her a birthday card for years, yet there he is shouting the odds and demanding 'justice'. He chose a different life over his own daughter. And yes, I really do judge people like the mother - I really do. If someone chooses a crack pipe over their own child and is happy for that child to spend the majority of their time with their grandparent, who is fucking one of their ex-partners, and is a convicted offender and open junkie, then yes, I will judge.

Maryz Wed 15-May-13 17:59:49

carpe, I think a system like that would be great, in theory. Unfortunately in practice the social care system in the UK (and even more so in Ireland, where I am) is bursting at the seams already. Social workers are seen as the wicked childcatcher, and anyone suggesting that families should take a more responsible approach to having and raising children is shouted down by those who cite civil liberty.

I have seen threads on here where op's who have been suggested parenting courses because of their children's challenging behaviour have been called all sorts of names, the general opinion of social services is that they are trying to take children from innocent parents (often to fill some sort of "adoption quota" hmm).

Every parent who has SS intervention appears to feel it is unfair, and feels that it shouldn't apply to them - but rather to some other, un-named irresponsible parent.

Parents resent being offered help, they resent being asked to go on parenting courses, they resent the suggestion that their child might be neglected/overfed/up too late/out on the streets too much. Any teacher who intervenes is accused of being interfering.

Every parent seems to think love is enough. Whereas it is obvious from the outside that love simply isn't enough.

Bringing up children must be about the only job these days for which adults need absolutely no training or education at all sad

CarpeVinum Wed 15-May-13 18:33:27

think a system like that would be great, in theory. Unfortunately in practice the social care system in the UK (and even more so in Ireland, where I am) is bursting at the seams already. Social workers are seen as the wicked childcatcher, and anyone suggesting that families should take a more responsible approach to having and raising children is shouted down by those who cite civil liberty.

I know love. Damned if they do and damned if don't and it's all holed up in a creaky leaky boat.

That's why I went for social media seeding from non gov agencies/entities and schools taking on a Brit version of "Long Live Love".

It wouldn't be anything like enough of an antidote to what too many kids see day in day out. But there are those that hovver on the edge of a potential lifetime of dysfunction and pain all accross the socio-econ range. And some could be hauled back from abyss if they and their peer group were consistently encouraged to have high expectations in terms of their relationships and were actively taught what "healthy" DIDN'T look like and why we have some taboos.

If I could think of a way to get people to support better funded child protection and to consider the poverty of outcomes post removal for even very young children in cases where people have been prone to give evidently inadequate parents "yet another chance" I would do it.

But if Khyra Ishaq's caseworker can have 50 cases on her desk and people still yell "crappy social services don't know what they are doing !" rather than react in horror and demand funds and resouces start moving in the other direction...I don't think there is anything sayable or doable that will make a dent.

LineRunner Wed 15-May-13 19:40:07

I think social media seeding is a good idea, Carpe. I have learned masses from MN over two years, little by little, about parenting in a better way and it has been of huge benefit especially as a lone parent.

It also has the potential of giving a parent a community outside of their otherwise possibly narrow immediate social circle.

childrencomefirst Fri 17-May-13 12:46:44

From what I understand, her dad left when she was little and they didn't see much of each other.

Tia spent a lot of time at her grandmother's because her mom and step dad where crack addicts (known to social services).

Hazell had a criminal history.

A lot of red flags. Tia was failed by all those involved. I only feel sorry for Tia. Poor girl, cant imagine what she went through.

handcream Sat 18-May-13 16:22:52

I jus overheard in a cafe that Tia's family amnd extended family are being paid thosands of pounds for various media interviews and that her step Dad is looking for 2,000 plus before he talks to a papers

Please, please tell me this isn't true.

CarpeVinum Sat 18-May-13 16:34:01

It's true according to the Daily Mail.

Who I think are less interested in the issues that throws up and are more interesting in doing a bit of benefit bashing with a side order of "that'll teach you to go to the competition"

I find their tone hard to take. How do they think a section of the public have arrived at the point where they almost expect to attract large fees to be "the lead that bleeds". Can't have anything to do with a culture they have taken an active role in, hhmmm dmaily ?

handcream Sat 18-May-13 16:37:56

If the article is true this family need to hang their heads in shame.

CarpeVinum Sat 18-May-13 17:00:24

I don't think they are operating on the same social vision of what is dignified/ethical as say the bulk of the public loce, it's that "normalisation" thing again.

And perhaps an unitended consequence of the last 15 years or so of obsession with "reality entertainment". 15 minutes of fame (regardless of context) as one's due and all that jazz.

To be fair to them, I don't think they stood a chance in the face of slick producers smarming them and spinning a web of bollocks abput "putting a stop to misinformation, letting people see ypur side of the story so they will understand and leave you alone".

I think there needs to be a mass outpouring of outrage towards the people that pay people to do paid interviews in these sorts of circs. They set the tone and the precidence becuase they are the ones doing the most cashing in on a dead girl's horrible fate and they are the ones with the power.

That is where public revultion will be most effective at stopping this sort thing even happening in the first place as well as underlinging that generally speaking we find it repugnant. Especially if we all turn it off and do a two week boycott everytime they step over the line.

Maryz Sat 18-May-13 17:05:33

The trouble is, while there is a seemingly never-ending supply of people who are happy to go on the likes of Jeremy Kyle and air all their dirty laundry for the whole world to judge, it is hardly surprising that some peoples' opinions of what is "normal" are so badly skewed.

It doesn't really matter whether they are paid for interviews. And it's worth pointing out that people read the newspapers, so are obviously happy to (indirectly) pay for them. There is a section of society that enjoys vicariously living through others - and the more murky the lives the subjects lead the happier those people are.

I agree the interviewers, the editors and most of all the readers of these publications should shoulder some of the blame for skewing society's perception of what is acceptable human behaviour sad

deepfriedsage Sat 18-May-13 17:09:38

I think they should have used the ITV program to get their story out if it helped them come to terms with things. Too many interviews could appear to be making money on a tradgedy and seem like Peter Andre.

deepfriedsage Mon 20-May-13 11:49:38

Tia's Dad was on This Morning. It was sad hearing PS point out his argument was flawed, that there are still murders in US where death penalthy is in place. I feel sorry for the guy, he lost his child, its sad he chose not to see her for years.

childrencomefirst Mon 20-May-13 13:20:59

As soon as the dad came on This Morning I switched it over. I couldnt care less about his feelings, the mother's feeling or the gran's.

I am fed up seeing daily reports of babies/children being murdered (usually by the mother's boyfriend). Tia's family let her down. I cannot sympathise with her family.

handcream Mon 20-May-13 13:44:57

He is touting his views across the media and apparently is being paid £1000's for his side of the story. This family are awful, they seem quite happy to take the money but this guy had little time for Tia when she was alive.

Horrible man. Hopefully the media will stop offering people like this money for 'their side of the story'!

childrencomefirst Mon 20-May-13 14:34:36

Well said Handcream.

Making money out of this is disgusting!

Talking to a friend who works in child protection the other day - she pointed out that since Hazell was a crack dealer his income would be very much missed by the family now he is behind bars.

Hence the tv appearances shock

boschy Fri 24-May-13 10:08:44

I just cannot believe the defence... "I forgot" WTAF?

miffybun73 Fri 24-May-13 10:56:30

Are you thinking of the April Jones case ? "I forgot" what I did with the body?

boschy Fri 24-May-13 14:31:16

sorry miffy, you're right! wrong thread [embarrassed]

miffybun73 Fri 24-May-13 14:52:09

Don't worry, just thought I'd point it out so you can jump on the right one smile

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