Missing women found in Ohio

(151 Posts)
CogitoErgoSometimes Tue 07-May-13 06:29:30

article

When the story of Natasha Kampusch broke in 2006 it seemed like a bizarre one-off. Since then we've heard about Jaycee Dugard and one or two others. Now three more missing women (possibly more) have been found at a place in Ohio seemingly having been held captive for many years. Good conclusion to a tragic story and makes you wonder if there's anyone in the UK, written off as missing, but being similarly held against their will. Thinking about the case of Claudia Lawrence, for example.

rainbowslollipops Tue 07-May-13 06:32:25

I was so shocked when I saw this on the news. 10 years they've been missing for. So so glad they're all well. Hopefully they'll get all the support they need to get over this.

mouseymummy Tue 07-May-13 06:35:57

One has been missing for 25 years.... According to the report I've just seen on BBC breakfast. There are reports they have children too.

JakeBullet Tue 07-May-13 06:38:26

So glad they have finally been freed but my goodness what a horrendous ordeal. Sounds like they have been kept as slaves....and there is at least one child probably born without any midwife or doctor in attendance. Horrific ordeal.

DolomitesDonkey Tue 07-May-13 06:42:35

It's like something out of "criminal minds" - which I had to stop watching because it's so depressing.

I'm so glad these women, at least superficially seem to be ok.

Their parents must have never thought this day would come, i bet they are relieved yet agreeably worried about what their daughters may or may not have suffered after being held captive for over a decade.
It does make me wonder whether their are similar stories yet to be uncovered with missing children in our country too.
I hope these girls get the help and support needed to fufill their , happy new futures.

MaryPoppinsBag Tue 07-May-13 07:01:56

Who knows what they went through hmm
Glad that they are free and can see their families again.

KitKatShoes Tue 07-May-13 07:31:39

How the hell does your mind cope with that? 10 years! sad

Tailtwister Tue 07-May-13 07:53:36

It's absolutely shocking that they were kept hidden for so long. I hope they get the help they need to move forward with their lives.

CogitoErgoSometimes Tue 07-May-13 08:21:39

The brief accounts I've read of other similar stories seem to indicate that the captivity is as much mental as physical. i.e. even if there are opportunities to physically escape, often the mental duress is such that the captive is too frightened or too brainwashed to do so.

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 10:01:12

how awful and good at the same time that they've been found. i'm hoping they'll all be able to re-establish some sort of happy life for themselves after this.

cogito yes, i have watched a few programmes about women (it's always girls and women isn't it sad) who have been held captive and i've found myself thinking, "the door is open, just go" but it becomes really clear that it isn't just physical restraints holding them there. those poor girls. sad

It must be especially difficult in a situation like this with other captives and children involved.

If Amanda had failed in her attempt doubtless her captors would have punished all of them... Such a difficult choice to make sad

I can't begin to imagine what they've been through.

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 10:13:53

is it just me or was that 911 operator shit? he didn't ask if she needed any medical help or if she was in a safe place or even where she was! i know he needs to free up the line for more emergency calls but that was really bad IMO the girl was hysterical and she was phoning the go to number for help. dont they get training in how to calm callers down and ascertain if they are safe etc?

I didn't listen to it as it wouldn't load right on my phone. I wonder did the operator assume it was a prank given the highly unusual circumstances.

cocolepew Tue 07-May-13 10:25:23

So sad that one of the girls mum died 3 years after she was taken.
Shocking story.

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 10:26:27

possibly. i still dont think he dealt with it very well. she clearly was very panicked and worried the captors would return and i dont think he did anything to reassure her at all. he said they would get a car out when one came free hmm

recall Tue 07-May-13 10:29:55

I agree, the 911 operator didn't show any compassion

Totally agree, was a very uncompassionate operator, even if he did think it was a prank-He should treat each case as different, that girl would have been really scared. So sad about one of the girls mum's being dead, she will never get to see her daughter sad

Smellslikecatspee Tue 07-May-13 10:57:14

Very very hard to get your head around.

There have been a couple of these events recently including one of a youg boy who was 'allowed' out to school/ friends houses, but couldn't get his head around that he could have just told a teacher/ friends parent.

The psychological hold that is imposed on these women and children is truely terrifying

Room by Emma Donoghue was written about a situation like this but the story is told from the POV of the child. It a heartbreaking story, but the innocence of the child, the ability to normalise the abnormal.
The strenght of will to survive. . . .

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 10:59:40

sad

for all of them. all the women and children who have experienced this. so much damage.

JemimaPuddle Tue 07-May-13 11:11:48

I read a book years ago about a situation in the US where a young girl was taken & kept for years by a man. His wife even gave birth on a bed while she was held captive in a 'box' underneath it. If I remember rightly he'd convinced her she'd been sold and showed a contract. She was convinced even police were in on it & if she escaped they would bring her back sad

GibberTheMonkey Tue 07-May-13 13:34:57

It must continue to give hope to parents of other missing/abducted children/teens/young women

I cannot imagine being their families, so sad one mother will never know.

This is a very interesting take on one of the psychological aspects.

Smellslikecatspee Tue 07-May-13 16:09:34

That is an interesting take on things and very sad for her that she even had to spend one second thinking that been raped/kidnapped made her somehow 'lesser' if that makes sense.

CrowsLanding Tue 07-May-13 16:23:15

Oh my word how sad. So glad they have been found.
I agree the 911 operator was shite!

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 16:31:59

jemima i think i saw a documentary about that same woman. she recounted teh whole story start to finish and yes, she was absoloutely convinced it was all part of a massive conspiracy and that there were people belonging to the organisation (cant remember the name he told her it was called) everywhere and if she tried to tell anyone she would be killed. she was 'permitted' to work and went into the local town for her job but was too terrified to speak to anyone. AFAIK the guy even brought her back to her family for a visit and she had to pretend he was her fiance and that everything was fine but one of her cousins ( i think) sussed something wasn't right/ cant remember how she got away in the end.

phantomnamechanger Tue 07-May-13 18:45:54

what a horrendous story. A good outcome, ie escape, but how do these poor women and their families adjust to normal life again. How in all that time did these men (one was a school bus driver shock) keep up their huge secret so that noone outside knew anything about these women? Never accidentally mentioned a name, nothing? How do people who "knew" those men feel now? Poor neighbours - imagine finding out that had been going on under your nose! In a way, its actually a good thing there is more than one victim here, as presumably they will remain in contact and be good support to each other. Or would you cut all ties?

And yes, it must give hope to others with missing loved ones. What a choice though - to hope your loved one is holed up in a scenario like this, rather than dead sad

Pixel Tue 07-May-13 19:13:00

cogito yes, i have watched a few programmes about women (it's always girls and women isn't it ) who have been held captive and i've found myself thinking, "the door is open, just go" but it becomes really clear that it isn't just physical restraints holding them there. those poor girls.

You don't know what they've been told though do you? I seem to remember Jaycee Lee Dugard was told that her family would be killed if she tried to escape. She was only 11 and had no reason not to believe someone who'd already kidnapped and raped her. She knew that he knew where they all lived.

scaevola Tue 07-May-13 19:19:16

Has it been confirmed that the child found at the premises (or escaped at the same time) is Amanda Berry's daughter? It was being widely reported earlier that she is, but they were 'unconfirmed reports' (I really do despair of news standards sometimes).

I hope this does bring hope to the families and friends of those who have gone missing especially in suspicious circumstances.

GibberTheMonkey Tue 07-May-13 19:24:24

There are photos of Amanda with her sister with her arm around a younger child. I had assumed because of this that the reports were true but I do know what assumptions can lead to

suburbophobe Tue 07-May-13 19:27:03

It's almost unbelievable, it's so bizarre. Those poor women, being held for 10! years or more....

It reminds me (a.o) of that German woman who was kept in a cellar by her father and had numerous children by him. I remember thinking, also with Natasha Kampusch, how many more..? shock

I do think the operator was rather insensitive, but I got the impression he didn't know who she was by her name (that she was missing) and just rattled of his spiel of "Police, Ambulance or Fire Brigade". They must get hoax calls....

Also thinking of Madeleine McCann's parents now, how they are experiencing this news.

Who is Claudia Lawrence?

Moln Tue 07-May-13 19:40:58

it was Austria wasn't where the daughter was held for over 20 years and raped by her father. Unless there's also a German one too.

It's hard to comprehend isn't it the psychological damage this will cause to the women. also disturbing to think how many others are being held, and where - next door possibly?

tribpot Tue 07-May-13 19:45:33
Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 19:47:11

"You don't know what they've been told though do you? "

that was my point.

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 19:51:02

yes josef fritzel held his daughter for 24 years in a cellar in austria and fathered several children with her.

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 19:54:59
Pixel Tue 07-May-13 20:32:46

Oh I know Booey, I wasn't disagreeing with you smile.

edam Tue 07-May-13 20:38:32

I'm glad they are safe but good grief, how many more cases of this kind are there going to be? Astounding.

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 20:40:54

ah sorry pixel, i thought you were explaining why they couldn't escape in the way i was suggesting "just open the door" and had just missed the next bit of my post! blush

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 20:44:12

sadly edam i think certain types of people will always take/hold captive children/young women for their own evil plans. the only hope is that police/investigaters get better and better at tracing missing people and can reunite them with their families far sooner in future.

Moln Tue 07-May-13 21:01:29

I think there was a case in Japan too, a school girl kept barely any distance from her parents house

edam Tue 07-May-13 21:08:41

I've just seen he drove a school bus. Horrible that someone who is trusted with the welfare of children could be so evil.

BriansBrain Tue 07-May-13 21:10:01

I've only just heard about this and I'm shock those poor women and children.

I haven't listened to the emergency call but the person who asks "police, fire or ambulance" can do no more than put the call through to the correct emergency dispatcher and without any delay. Some times it's easier to drown out the screaming, panic and extra words to just hear the word you are looking for to be able to help? A dispatcher is trained in calming and empathy though.

suburbophobe Tue 07-May-13 21:10:55

Oh yes, it was Austria. the Fritzl case <shudder>

I wonder how you ever get over something like that...if you even do.

Thanks for the Claudia Lawrence link, gonna read it now.

suburbophobe Tue 07-May-13 21:13:15

Oh god, yes, I remember her, the chef that disappeared.

Poor woman, poor family.........

KitKatShoes Tue 07-May-13 21:32:19

Same as people don't tell about physical/sexual abuse in a way - you think all they have to do is tell a teacher/parent/aunt etc but it is the psychological hold the abuser has. They groom and control them.

Snazzynewyear Tue 07-May-13 22:13:14

It has been confirmed now that the six year old is Amanda Berry's daughter. The photo of Amanda, her sister and (blurred out) the young girl at the hospital is very moving.

What a brave woman Amanda Berry is. She handled the 911 call much better than the operator did for her in return; she knew the important thing was to get the police and quickly.

KittenofDoom Tue 07-May-13 22:16:07

Where was she phoning from? What about the neighbour who helped her, couldn't he have taken her somewhere safe?

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 22:33:16

i think the neighbour brought her either to his house or another neighbours house to phone teh police. not sure though. she probably was safe with her neighbour but the 911 operator didn't bother to ask her that.

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 22:38:17

i've just watched the news clip again and the neighbour says he brought her to his house and she phoned the police.

Moln Tue 07-May-13 22:41:55

there's a clip on the bbc news site where another neighbour ssid she was suspicious of the house. Her granddaughter saw a naked woman crawling in the yard, and there was a child seen in the attic window

KitKatShoes Tue 07-May-13 22:45:59

it is truly awful

SanityClause Tue 07-May-13 22:47:21

The neighbour was a star. He had to break through the door, to let her out. How many people wouldn't have wanted to get involved?

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 23:05:14

yes sanity! well done him. and of course the girl for having the guts to take that opportunity. her heart must have been pounding the whole time. she must have been so petrified that it would backfire and she would be 'caught' trying to escape or the risk that people would refuse to help, how devastating that would have been after her taking that leap to try.

KittenofDoom Tue 07-May-13 23:09:11

So she wasn't in any danger then. Well, as said above, the emergency operator can do no more than send the appropriate services as quickly as possible. Asking more questions would have only delayed things.

edam Tue 07-May-13 23:13:09

There were three other victims still in the house. So no, everyone was not safe.

LadyBeagleEyes Tue 07-May-13 23:17:32

This story is so utterly shock I have no words.

DoctorAnge Tue 07-May-13 23:27:34

The police brushed off a neighbours report that someone was in the house against their will. The police also visited the property numerous times. hmm sad

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 23:39:47

no kittenofdoom. the operator didn't even ask if she was safe or not. didn't ask if she needed medical help (after all the girl had just said she'd been kidnapped!)

asking those questions are important so that he can send the right emergency services!

she had to interupt him and tell him that a car needed to be sent straight away and not 'when one came free' as her captors might come back and there were other girls in the house!

all he had to say was "are you in a safe place" "do you need medical assistance"

she was the one in shock, trauma, fear, panic. you cant depend on someone in that situation to know what to ask for from the 911 operator. 911 operators should know the right questions to ask to get the vital information out. he didn't. thankfully she was able to get her message across despite his disinterest.

Booyhoo Tue 07-May-13 23:41:43

doctor that is very worrying! i hope questions will be asked about that! those poor girls. imagine knowing the police were right there in the next room to you/downstairs and not being able to shout out! sad

KitKatShoes Wed 08-May-13 00:35:49

Very very frightening.

SinisterBuggyMonth Wed 08-May-13 07:54:43

So three men have imprisoned these women and children for 10 years and the vitriol is being directed at the 911 operator for not being compassionate enough.

Only on Mumsnet....

tribpot Wed 08-May-13 08:12:57

I very much doubt it is only on Mumsnet where questions are being asked. The call is being reviewed by the police.

niceguy2 Wed 08-May-13 08:38:32

I just listened to the entire conversation using Tribpot's link and personally I can't see anything wrong with it. The only thing that's not clear to me is who put the phone down. It may well have been the girl who hung up.

It's easy to sit in our armchair and criticise the call operator for not asking this question or that. But when you are johnny on the spot, not so easy. According to the news article police were dispatched and on scene inside 2 minutes. I'd take that as a win personally. I bet if the situation was in the UK it would take substantially longer than 2 minutes to get police on scene.

To me the call operator sounded calm and professional. Sympathy? Maybe not but then she had a job to do and for all she knew it could have been a sick wind up. Her job was to dispatch the right help which arrived inside of 2 minutes. Job done in my mind.

Snazzynewyear Wed 08-May-13 08:55:24

Fair enough, if they got the police there in 2 mins that's a good response in my book.

I think the reason no-one's said anything about the men who imprisoned them is that it is very obvious. Complete scum who deserve the heaviest punishment possible. I would like to see them in a miserable jail for the rest of their lives. But again, I imagined that would be what most people think about this anyway.

There will certainly be questions about the police's previous visits to the house.

Booyhoo Wed 08-May-13 09:16:47

sinister- point out the vitriol?

and who said compassion? did I? no i haven't said he/she should have shown compassion or sympathy. i've said he/she didn't ask the right questions.

KingRollo Wed 08-May-13 09:27:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WinkyWinkola Wed 08-May-13 09:30:19

I reckon there are many many people held like this.

Booyhoo Wed 08-May-13 09:33:07

job done. yes. no-one arguing with that. the police arrived and the girls are safe. job done properly by the operator? well that's yet to be decided.

deepfriedsage Wed 08-May-13 09:49:39

There was also the girl who shredded her skin breaking out through barbed wire. Lots of ladies and girls who escape.

CogitoErgoSometimes Wed 08-May-13 10:07:52

Do any of us live on a street where there is a rough-looking house with blacked-out windows? Would we report it to anyone if there was or would we think it was NOYB...?

Booyhoo Wed 08-May-13 10:15:47

blacked out windows i would (rightly or wrongly) assume drugs tbh. i probably would report it if i thought someone was keeping/growing/dealing drugs on my street. i dont think i'd be the only neighbour that would as it just wouldn't be normal for our street but i guess if you live in an area where drug use is high and houses aren't well maintained then maybe you stop noticing.

my last house was in a horrible council estate and drug raid were regular occurences. lots of houses boarded up but broken into by local kids and trashed. i did stop noticing tbh.

miemohrs Wed 08-May-13 10:36:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

niceguy2 Wed 08-May-13 10:37:44

job done properly by the operator? well that's yet to be decided.

Which part of her job was not done properly? Was she rude? No. The only thing I've heard is people saying "She should have asked x. Or said y"

I say judge the operator on the results. It sounds like at first the operator was going to send a unit "..when available" but then changed her mind when it became clearer and police arrived in 2 minutes. From where I looking, it sounds like the operator did their job correctly and promptly.

Like I said, it's easy to sit here now listening to the tape and saying Oh this should have been done or said. Not so easy when you are the one who has to make those split second, life or death decisions.

miemohrs Wed 08-May-13 10:40:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

deepfriedsage Wed 08-May-13 10:46:07

I read the neighbour saw three women on leads crouched on all fours, controlled by three men. [Sad]

miemohrs Wed 08-May-13 10:50:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lyndie Wed 08-May-13 11:10:06

I think one of the saddest things I've read is about the possibility of multiple babies being born and dying dye to illness, malnutrition or injury. I cannot even begin to imagine the emotion of birthing a baby to your captor, without assistance, or postnatal care, and having to watch them die (if that happened and really hoping it didn't).

CheerfulYank Wed 08-May-13 11:26:21

I believe there were several miscarriages due to beatings/malnutrition. sad

It's just awful. Amanda was so brave, and I love the neighbor. He called 911 too, and at one point describes the woman as "in a panic" and then says something like "well she said she been kidnapped, put yourself in her situation!"

Her daughter too sad DS is almost 6 and the thought of raising him in such a place...heartbreaking.

Booyhoo Wed 08-May-13 11:50:06

"Not so easy when you are the one who has to make those split second, life or death decisions."

yes but it's kind of necessary when that is your job and you have been trained to do it.

and as has been said. it's still unclear whether the operator acted properly. their actions are under review.

Booyhoo Wed 08-May-13 11:52:31

in one interview a neighbour said she saw the little girl at the park with ariel castro. imagine having to hand your dd over to that monster! just awful.

ubik Wed 08-May-13 12:35:27

I work as a call taker and I assume that as the police car was there within 2mins, and the operator knew they were approaching, that it was left fir police to deal with the situation so the handler could then deal with another emergency call.

There will be tightly controlled processes that handlers follow, they will be documenting on the computer, talking to the emergency services as well as the caller.

Please - it's a difficult job and very unusual situation so let's not jump on someone who was only doing their job.

Those poor girls.

Booyhoo Wed 08-May-13 12:39:48

as has been said (several times now) ubik. the call handler's actions are being reviewed so perhaps i and others who commented on it aren't so wide off the mark.

i have no vendetta against emergency call handlers or this one in general. i dont even know who they are. the call struck me as odd and i commented. i'm not alone in noticing that.

MarthasHarbour Wed 08-May-13 12:44:28

This story has really got to me. The fear of the girls, the daughter, the sheer bravery of Amanda Berry knowing that she was risking her own, her daughters and her friends' lives. It is all just so shock and sad

But thank god they are all free. That neighbour is an international hero, i saw him on the news last night and felt so 'proud' of him IYKWIM.

i also cant help thinking that this gives hope to the McCann's and the Lawrence's and many many others. You dont want to think that your daughter or son is in that situation but, well, if she is alive...

So so sad about the other babies.

ubik Wed 08-May-13 12:46:54

My calls are reviewed all the time as a normal part of my job, recordings are listened to and 'live' calls too. There's no reason to assume there is anything amiss - it's a normal part of procedure and I am sure every professional will have to account for their actions.

I do find it a bit weird that thus thread has focused on a few seconds of an energy cry call though confused

ubik Wed 08-May-13 12:47:47

'Emergency'

Booyhoo Wed 08-May-13 12:51:16

yes it is weird. why cant people just accept that i think he did a shit job on that call. confused

MarthasHarbour Wed 08-May-13 12:52:37

ubik i saw a programme a few weeks ago, one of these 'emergency services' type things (nothing else on - we were bored!) but hells bells we were so incredibly impressed at how you and your colleagues deal with such calls.

I think the difference here was stark though, from what we saw on the programme - a call like this would have been dealt with differently in the UK, we saw lots of calm professional staff dealing with all sorts, and would not get off the phone until they were satisfied the emergency services were there.

I do think that by listening to the clip that the controller could have done more to reassure her, i was listening thinking about that programme i saw. She didnt seem convinced when he said just to sit and wait. I dont know hmm

As i say - this is no criticism of your profession, i really do think the UK teams do an excellent job. My grandad died of a heart attack a couple of years ago and despite the outcome my nanna still talks about the 'wonderful lady' she spoke to at 999. She kept my nanna calm throughout and explained everything to her smile

MarthasHarbour Wed 08-May-13 12:54:33

<disclaimer> i am not taking this thread in a different direction - i agree with booyhoo - he did a shit job thats that. i just felt i wanted to give ubik a bit of solidarity

CheerfulYank Wed 08-May-13 12:55:33

I can't imagine giving birth there with only your rapist/captor to help you.

ubik Wed 08-May-13 12:59:54

Well isn't he fortunate to have many people sat at their computers happy to point that out to him.

Anyway enuff said.

niceguy2 Wed 08-May-13 13:22:29

why cant people just accept that i think he did a shit job on that call.

I do accept you think he/she did a shit job. I disagree. I think they did their job just fine.

LadyBeagleEyes Wed 08-May-13 13:30:17

I can't believe all this niggling about the emergency call handler,amongst the utter horror of this story.hmm.
He did the job didn't he and these women are now free.

MarthasHarbour Wed 08-May-13 14:13:54

forgive my interference ubik - it was kindly meant hmm

and if you all read my earlier post i was discussing how deeply affected i am by this horrific story. i am also not the only one making comment on the call handler. it is all part of the horror that these women were going through

msrisotto Wed 08-May-13 14:42:30

Is Reuters a reputable source?

I guess not as no newspapers are reporting stuff like this:
"Another neighbour, Anthony Westry, said a little girl could often be seen peering from the attic window of the Castro house.

"She was always looking out the window," he said. Castro would take her to the park to play very early in the morning, "not around the time you would take kids to play," he said."

Skybore Wed 08-May-13 14:47:27

deepfriedsage Wed 08-May-13 10:46:07
I read the neighbour saw three women on leads crouched on all fours, controlled by three men. [Sad] Hmmmm hmm

Well I think the police will be interested in speaking to the neighbour who kicked the door in, especially after his fantastically inappropriate comment to reporters;

...To another reporter, Mr Ramsey spoke of his shock that the man he used to listen to music with and share ribs with could have been behind this.

"You got to have some big testicles to pull this off, bro, because we see this dude every day. I mean every day."... grin

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22431948

lateSeptember1964 Wed 08-May-13 17:44:02

I watched an interview on You Tube with the neighbour and CNN Anderson Cooper. The neighbour said that the police only came because he also phoned. He said he called the operator a compete moron for her lack of interest. Really worth watching

GibberTheMonkey Wed 08-May-13 20:00:18

Reuters is generally considered reputable. They are reporting as what the neighbour said rather it being fact though.
They're a news agency so provide other outlets and are probably one of the least biased reporters out there

Merguez Wed 08-May-13 20:44:31

Reuters is a very, very reputable news source. I would trust it as much as the BBC.

And nothing at all to do with the fact that I used to be a Reuters reporter.

Very strict guidelines - everything must be attributed properly.

As Gibber points out, they are reporting what the neighbour said he saw, not as fact.

Xenia Wed 08-May-13 21:43:22

It might be the men took the babies that had been born and they are somewhere else of course, off site or they killed them elsewhere (except the one 6 year old who survived).

Snazzynewyear Wed 08-May-13 21:45:30

Yes, Reuters is highly reputable.

Snazzynewyear Wed 08-May-13 21:56:19

Just thinking. Heat seeking equipment was used in the search for the Boston Marathon bombers when they were on the run in the city, right? Why isn't such equipment used when searching for missing people like this? Surely a house-to-house search - or at least of anywhere dodgy looking - within say a 10 mile radius, with heat seeking equipment, would have found Amanda Berry early on?

girliefriend Wed 08-May-13 22:14:16

It is terrifying to think that this can happen in a residential area and no body realise that something was seriously wrong.

What is wrong with these men angry

Booyhoo Wed 08-May-13 22:15:21

would heat seeking equipment have helped in this case though? it might have detected her body heat (and michelle knight's if she was in that house at the time) it cant tell whether the body heat is male or femal or whether it's the people who live there or not. lots of the houses will have had peope in them on that street so heat detection wouldn't have shown anything that wasn't happening in every house along that road. teh only way they could have known if the people in teh house were being held captive was with a police warrant and they need someone to have given them reason to suspect amanda was in there in order to get that.

Merguez Wed 08-May-13 22:25:50

Heat seeking equipment wouldn't have helped as she was being held in a house with other people.

With Boston Marathon suspect he was hiding in a boat in a garden where you would not expect to find someone.

Snazzynewyear Wed 08-May-13 22:29:02

I was just thinking they could check under floors with it. So if there's a report of a face at a window, someone in a back garden etc, as we've heard, then part of the police response could be to visit the house and (as well as not just going away if there's no answer at the door...) check where a cellar would be to see if there's an indication of body heat there. Plus the rest of the house. I don't know whether you'd need a search warrant to do that. Wouldn't a report that someone might be in the house who didn't seem to be a known resident be sufficient for a search warrant?

Booyhoo Wed 08-May-13 22:32:47

i doubt it tbh. people have visitors over all the time, friends with dcs, grandchildren. even people who go years without having a soul in their house can suddenly be reunited with estranged family and have them over.

also, heat seeking equiment is very expensive. they wouldn't go to that just to check one house they'd had suspicions about. tehy'd get a warrant first.

Snazzynewyear Wed 08-May-13 22:34:25

And another thing. Ariel Castro apparently kept a boy with SEN from leaving the school bus one day and drove around with him on the bus for several hours before letting him go (read this in Guardian today but don't have the link right now). For this he was suspended from his job for 60 days by the school board but then seems to have returned to work. Now if that were my son, the school board would have had no peace until that bus driver was removed from his job permanently. Granted, there isn't an obvious correlation between 'this man acts inappropriately towards children', and 'this man may have imprisoned women in his house to abuse them' but it is certainly an indicator that I would say warrants more of a response than a 60 day suspension. How many other signs of Castro's dubious character have gone unnoticed and not been followed up?

Booyhoo Wed 08-May-13 22:37:42

heat seeking equipment looks for people in outbuildings, woodlands etc. places people dont normally 'live' but would go to hide or be hidden.

Booyhoo Wed 08-May-13 22:46:54

yes snazzy- that annoyed me too. apparently the police came to his house over that incident but didn't get any answer so they just left it! shock surely a call at his work wasn't beyond their abilities!

niceguy2 Wed 08-May-13 23:05:07

A door to door search with heat seeking equipment within a 10 mile radius in a built up urban area? hmm

That would take so much manpower that it would be impossible. You'd have to seal off completely the 10 mile perimeter to stop the kidnapper from moving people to another location as the police progressed.

And what about the privacy of all the people who have done nothing? Having police 'search' your house albeit with good intentions? It's illegal.

Most importantly though it simply isn't practical or effective.

Snazzynewyear Wed 08-May-13 23:26:27

So what is practical when looking for people - most often women - who have gone missing? I know there will be quite a number who are just never found and probably are dead, as was suspected of Amanda Berry and her fellow prisoners. But it is really, really disturbing to think that it is seemingly a fairly easy option for kidnappers to grab someone, lock them up in the cellar of a house which is actually very close to the abductee's own neighbourhood, and rely on them simply not being found or even searched for properly. Surely a new strategy for this is needed?

Snazzynewyear Wed 08-May-13 23:27:54

Boo yes, the report I read said that since no crime had been committed it was just left alone hmm Presumably the word of the young boy who had been kept on the bus against his will for hours meant nothing. sad

Snazzynewyear Wed 08-May-13 23:44:40

Castro has now been charged with 4 counts of kidnapping and 3 counts of rape, by the way. Don't know what kind of sentences convictions on those charges would typically carry.

CheerfulYank Thu 09-May-13 00:15:38

Well the man who kidnapped and raped Elizabeth Smart got life; I'd bet Castro will
too.

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 01:04:26

only 3 counts of rape? i'm guessing the fourth kidnapping charge was for the little girl?

i saw earlier his brothers were not charged. were they not involved at all?

CheerfulYank Thu 09-May-13 02:12:03

If more comes up about the other children who were allegedly born there I'd imagine
there will be further charges.

Also I read that the first woman said there was another girl at some point, so if that's true who knows where she is. She could be dead or trafficked, which would bring additional charges.

MarthasHarbour Thu 09-May-13 09:20:09

boo i read that they arrested the two brothers as a kind of 'panic reaction' to the girls escape, i guess it was a case of - arrest anyone who 'could' have been involved. Allegedly they had nothing to do with it.

The more details that are emerging are just so sad the girls didnt even know who else was in the house as they were segregated into different locked rooms. I had some sort of weird comfort that at least they were together and could support eachother but that didnt seem to be the case.

Also the baby must have been in the cellar when she was newborn, as the neighbours would have heard her crying, as newborns do. <i have to say that the neighbours have all been exemplary in this - their courage and bravery in helping the girls escape and raise questions about the police - i do think that if they heard a newborn cry they would have alerted the authorities>

Also - i think it was Gina DeJesus' aunty lives on the same street. Can you imagine looking for your niece for 9 years and finding she has been held captive on the same road.. sad

Its all just awful, and (as was said earlier in the thread) makes you wonder how many other missing people are being held in this way, in the UK too sad

Sorry for the long post, i am just overthinking this sad

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 09:44:31

"I had some sort of weird comfort that at least they were together and could support eachother but that didnt seem to be the case."

oh god!sad yes!! i had thought they were together and thought at least they had each other but that no. i wonder did amanda berry have to give birth completely alone? i know neither of the others were experienced midwives but at least if she could have had one or both of them with her it might have made it a bit less terrifying. sad

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 09:48:56

and yes the neighbours seem to have taken an interest in and reported stuff about that house before however i see that the chief of police has said these are false claims. one woman interviewed said she spoke to an officer about what her grand-daughter saw and she was told to get a detective who would either take the case or not so she got dicouraged by that and didn't take it any further. shouldn't a police officer be the one getting a detective after hearing a report like that? i dont know how the police work in the US but here i wouldn't have a clue how to 'get a detective' other than to go directly to teh police station.

CheerfulYank Thu 09-May-13 10:12:46

I think they were together sometimes. A report said that they were together at the hospital and obviously "had a bond."

CheerfulYank Thu 09-May-13 10:28:39

A news report out now says that Michelle Knight delivered the baby.

Snazzynewyear Thu 09-May-13 10:37:49

Could you post links to these reports, please?

MarthasHarbour Thu 09-May-13 10:52:05

snazzy they are all from the BBC and the Guardian <from my source anyway> am sneaking on here at work so cant do links now but will try to later smile

MarthasHarbour Thu 09-May-13 10:53:00

god yes i also thought about Amanda Berry being on her own during the birth, it is a small comfort that Michelle Knight was with her sad

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 10:57:06

[[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22453361 ]]

that bastard was a supposed 'friend' of the DeJesus family and handed out flyers, attended vigils and performed at fundraisers for her!

angry

Have they confirmed there were more babies that died?

He will definitely get life, they don't mess about over there, and I think they know they've fucked up a few times on this one, so will throw the book at him.

Won't turn the clock back for those poor women though sad

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 10:57:50
Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 11:00:10

i dont think so libertine. just that there were more pregnancies. they haven't said whether those pregnancies ended in miscarriage or went full term. although i think i saw somewhere that there was a baby that died aged a few days old from respiratory problems but i can find where i saw it so dont take it as fact. i'll try and find where they mentioned it.

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 11:02:47

there is more and more emerging that the police had been informed several times of women being seen at the house asking for help, "pounding" on the door, holding a baby, a girl in the attic window, the women seen naked in the back yard in chains! surely even 1 report was enough to keep knocking the door til he answered rather than just leave it because he didn't!

CheerfulYank Thu 09-May-13 12:37:00

Here it talks more about the baby's birth.

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 12:51:33

i wonder why he wanted to keep that baby alive when he had made sure the other pregnancies didn't continue? i'm wondering if it was because it was a girl sad or maybe he knew it would be too difficult to get rid of the remains if she died.

CheerfulYank Thu 09-May-13 12:58:37

I was wondering the same...maybe faced with it as a baby rather than a pregnancy he couldn't? Who knows what he was thinking, ever.

MarthasHarbour Thu 09-May-13 14:15:51

it was probably a control thing IYKWIM sad

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 14:29:14

ggo point martha. with a baby it meant he could threaten to hurt it if they refused to do what he said or fought him or tried to ecape etc. sad

also noticed that it said the girl was wearing a nappy when she came out. i wonder if that was a delayed development thing because of captivity or what? maybe lack of access to a toilet as regularly as young dcs need it. adults can hold it if they are being denied access but dcs cant so maybe nappies were easier for her.

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 14:29:46

good not ggo

TheSmallPrint Thu 09-May-13 14:33:53

I wondered why he has been charged with only 3 cases of rape when there is evidence of multiple miscarriages (according to BBC today anyway). And how are the brothers not being charged, surely they must have been aware of the situation?? hmm

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 14:48:30

it says the brothers were completely unconnected and unaware of the girls.

i also wondered about his 'common-law' wife that left in 2005 after he badly assaulted her. i'm guessing she lived with him in that house? i wonder if she had any suspicions? or maybe the lived at her house and he just 'visited' (shudder) his own house.

did the brothers live there?

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 15:53:36

no. i dont really know why they were arrested. knee jerk reaction? wanting to cover all possibilities? didn't want to risk anyone involved getting away? not sure. maybe he was with teh brothers when arrested?

CheerfulYank Thu 09-May-13 17:48:46

3 counts of rape means three women, not
three times.

TheSmallPrint Thu 09-May-13 18:05:43

Ah I see, thanks CheefulYank. Is it different here?

phantomnamechanger Thu 09-May-13 18:56:25

to be fair, I dont think we can take the stories some of the neighbours are coming out with as gospel.
remember all the cases where someone has been wrongly arrested, but in the meantime, all sorts of rumours and gossip about them have spread like wild fire - anything from strange noises, comings and goings,acting suspicioulsy, looking dodgy, IYKWIM! Reporters are out and about looking for comment - some people just love the cameras and will say anything at all to get their 5 minutes of fame (and the hopes of a paid interview?)

MarthasHarbour Thu 09-May-13 20:04:39

yes booyhoo that is the way i was thinking (about the control) he was already asserting control by saying he would kill her (Michelle i think) if the baby died. Fucking monster angry

i did hear that the brothers arrest was a knee jerk reaction, in all the drama and panic of the escape etc.

this is STILL playing on my mind - the whole thing. sad

Booyhoo Thu 09-May-13 20:06:40

Yes mine too martha. Ive had to switch the news channel off as it was really upsetting me. ( feel awful saying that when those women had to go through it)

niceguy2 Thu 09-May-13 23:41:59

With regards to the brothers, it does sound like they knew nothing about it. Apparently the son said that there were rooms noone was allowed in and was always padlocked.

Plus all police need to do is ask the girls if they ever saw the brothers. If the answer is yes then they're screwed. Given they've been released, I can only guess they never saw each other.

BBC News is now reporting Ariel may be executed which personally i think is too good for him. I'd like to see him either locked away in a super max in solitary for the rest of his days like he has done to the girls or fed to general population for a bit and see how long he lasts.

MarthasHarbour Fri 10-May-13 07:01:28

I like your thinking niceguy DH just said he would be in solitary confinement for years when on death row anyway. Which is a start!

CheerfulYank Fri 10-May-13 09:21:25

Yes, he'll be eligible for Ohio's death penalty as forced miscarriage counts as aggravated murder.

Booyhoo Fri 10-May-13 09:38:10

I agree niceguy. Solitary confinement not executionn.

CheerfulYank Fri 10-May-13 10:36:23

It'll cause a big to-do...always does between the pro choice and life camps when murder victims are fetuses.

TheSmallPrint Fri 10-May-13 16:19:53

I'd quite like him to go through 10 years of what he put those girls through tbh.

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