2 explosions at the finish line at the Boston Marathon.

(411 Posts)
landofsoapandglory Mon 15-Apr-13 20:22:00

BBC have it as news at the moment.

Sky also have it.

One person dead according to Sky on the TV.

Hulababy Mon 15-Apr-13 20:26:03

sad

Fargo86 Mon 15-Apr-13 20:29:25

Looks horrible.

tribpot Mon 15-Apr-13 20:31:25

Beeb link - I don't think yours is working, landofsoap.

How awful.

CutePuppy Mon 15-Apr-13 20:32:55

Police say they aren't confirming any details.

Those poor people. sad

ClaraOswald Mon 15-Apr-13 20:37:49

I hope it isn't terrorism.

tribpot Mon 15-Apr-13 20:38:08

NYPD confirm they have stepped up security in New York too (just on the Beeb).

sad blooming shocking!

im quite surprised they havent stopped the race. i dont think the rest of the runners even know yet

Gales Mon 15-Apr-13 20:40:32

That is awful. I ran London last year and will be manning a water station on Sunday (4am start anyone?) These just such wonderfully good events. I really hope it wasn't deliberate.

landofsoapandglory Mon 15-Apr-13 20:41:30

I hope it isn't terrorism too.

I should imagine the security is going to be stepped up for Lady Thatcher's funeral and the London Marathon, though.

Manchesterhistorygirl Mon 15-Apr-13 20:43:16

Desperately hoping its not terrorism, but 2 explosions? Just so bloody awful.

Helena1964 Mon 15-Apr-13 20:44:16

I've just heard Sky report possibly 3 dead. The odd thing is that none of the US outlets have yet mentioned fatalities. But one local news reporter has tweeted that she saw several people lose limbs. sad

carriedawayannie Mon 15-Apr-13 20:44:49

People on Twitter are reporting three dead but obv unconfirmed

ClaraOswald Mon 15-Apr-13 20:45:11

There has been rumours of a "third device" according to one of th enews sources.

sad

Three people dead, apparently.

Beyond sad. All those people giving their all to complete the race, pushing themselves to the limit -beyond despicable, if it's deliberate.

TigerSwallowtail Mon 15-Apr-13 20:45:56

How awful sad

possible 3rd device in another hotel too, though not much being mentioned about that yet

Hulababy Mon 15-Apr-13 20:46:48

Sky are always very quick to report information. They are not always accurate and often report information well before they are confirmed by anyone else. So, I would be reluctant to accept Sky as fact just yet. So fingers crossed.

tribpot Mon 15-Apr-13 20:47:19

I thought the references to 'another device' was slightly weird as they are being careful to say they don't know what the cause of the explosions is.

AuntieStella Mon 15-Apr-13 20:47:49

I don't think it'll make any difference to Baroness Thatcher's funeral. That was always going to entail a major security operation.

I hope that, in the scramble to "feed" the viewers of rolling news channels, coverage does not descend into the voyeuristic.

MrsBucketxx Mon 15-Apr-13 20:48:05

I Cant see what else it could be , what the motives would be I dont know.

its a shocking incident sad

MissAnnersley Mon 15-Apr-13 20:48:22

It's apparently a holiday in Boston today - schools closed, people off work etc.

It is called Patriot's Day. Am watching CNN.

ClaraOswald Mon 15-Apr-13 20:49:07

I'm on BBC, not sky.

tribpot Mon 15-Apr-13 20:50:57

Yes, it's a holiday today

MadCap Mon 15-Apr-13 20:51:26

It is also tax day. I wouldn't be quick to put it down to religious extremists. If was terrorism it may well be anti government extremists.

LadyMountbatten Mon 15-Apr-13 20:52:10

lots on twitter

Always faster

Hulababy Mon 15-Apr-13 20:53:01

Clara - the possible, but unconfirmed device at a different hotel in on BBC. But I was referring to the reports of fatalities.

ChippingInLovesSpring Mon 15-Apr-13 20:55:02

My thoughts go out to those involved sad

Fargo86 Mon 15-Apr-13 20:55:43

Just saw an animated picture of the explosion on twitter. Looks terrible. sad

LadyMaryQuiteContrary Mon 15-Apr-13 20:56:20

US twitter contacts are saying the police have just detonated a third bomb. sad

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Mon 15-Apr-13 20:56:46

Fuck, this is awful.

Gales Mon 15-Apr-13 20:57:49

If it's terrorism, the timing was wrong, 3 hours after the winner crossed the line? For Boston you have to get a qualifying time to enter, so vast majority of runners would have finished and most of the TV coverage would have ended. I would think it would have more impact (which is what a terrorist would want) a couple of hours earlier. I know I may be clutching at straws....

Asinine Mon 15-Apr-13 20:58:39

Best not to speculate, wish they wouldn't show graphic stuff, some relatives will see it before they have been told what has happened properly. Speculation will only make things worse.

Those poor people sad to have been watching nd cheering or maybe running, pushing yourself to get to the line- and then to be injured, even killed, or just have to watch the explosions.munbelievable that people can do this to other people.

Lucyellensmum95 Mon 15-Apr-13 20:59:23

So sad sad

spanky2 Mon 15-Apr-13 20:59:41

Seeing the crowd during the explosion makes me think of watching the triathlon at Hyde Park with my dcs and a bomb killing us didn't even cross my mind. I just think it is so awful.

AuntieStella Mon 15-Apr-13 20:59:42

The best sourced reports at present are saying only that there have been at least two explosions near the finish line (some 3 hours after front runners crossed the line) and that there are casualties.

It does sound as if some twats on twitter are plumbing new depths with what they think is appropriate to post at the early stages of a major event.

Tee2072 Mon 15-Apr-13 21:00:15

Just horrible.

There was no news to begin with because they quickly sequestered the Marathon Media attendees until they got the situation under control. That was on Twitter.

Lucyellensmum95 Mon 15-Apr-13 21:02:24

Gales i tend to agree with you - maybe its just a horrible accident sad

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Mon 15-Apr-13 21:02:38

It looks as though it was mainly spectators as they were standing directly in front of it. Just terrible.

DontmindifIdo Mon 15-Apr-13 21:04:18

I think it's terrifying, but speculating about who's done it and why when we don't really know what's happened yet is a bit much.

redandwhitesprinkles Mon 15-Apr-13 21:05:24

My husband was at the hotel this time last week. Feeling lucky and sad all rolled into one. Hope not too many casualties.

Awful sad and very hard to comprehend.

Tee2072 Mon 15-Apr-13 21:07:35

Boston Police just Tweeted, 2 dead, 22 injured.

QOD Mon 15-Apr-13 21:08:00

Awful. Sme of my friends ran Brighton yesterday and finished at 4 hrs, so it'll be the non professional normal folk who were coming in sad

Hassled Mon 15-Apr-13 21:09:03

How awful - there are some right bastards out there.

And it feels like such an odd sort of target, too. Who'd want to target a marathon, FFS?

QOD Mon 15-Apr-13 21:09:30

Makes me feel secure on the actual goodness of man you know watching the clips. People running straight into the blast zone to get trapped people out.
Actually making me cry
Some people duck and run, some people ran TOWARD it. Heros.

Hulababy Mon 15-Apr-13 21:10:49

From BBC:

BREAKING NEWS Boston Police Department: two dead, 22 injured in two explosions near the marathon finish line.

AuntieStella Mon 15-Apr-13 21:11:41

Tee - thanks for posting what's coming out from official sources.

The (limited, thank goodness) pix that SKY are showing make it clear there were still many runners on the course. A paramedic interviewed for a US channel and rebroadcast on SKY has referred to plural fatalities.

Hulababy Mon 15-Apr-13 21:13:35

The explosions occurred 5 hours after the start time apparently. There will still be people on the course.

FrubesOnTheCouch Mon 15-Apr-13 21:13:50

Bloody hell ! Not had news on all evening so just heard this now!

FrubesOnTheCouch Mon 15-Apr-13 21:14:34

Was it two explosions in same bit or different places?

Hulababy Mon 15-Apr-13 21:15:05

Two within the same hotel, only a few metres apart, according to BBC.

AuntieStella Mon 15-Apr-13 21:17:25

There were definitely runners still on the course (as media converting the race were still there and footage is being broadcast).

UK police reported (SKY) to be reviewing security, not of Thatcher's funeral, but of London Marathon which takes place this (?) weekend.

tribpot Mon 15-Apr-13 21:19:02

London marathon scheduled for 21 April.

Wannabestepfordwife Mon 15-Apr-13 21:20:59

So sad I can't help but shed a few tears. I really hope there are no more fatalities.

I really hope they catch who ever was responsible- according to eyewitness on the mail it was a bomb

Gales Mon 15-Apr-13 21:21:03

Yes, there would still be people on the course sad but most of the media coverage would have finished

landofsoapandglory Mon 15-Apr-13 21:22:00

stella I was wondering about the London marathon earlier. It would be my guess they will step up the security.

Gales Mon 15-Apr-13 21:24:37

Security for London is huge - we have to register months in advance and be police checked to run a water station.

I have so many questions as to how this could have happened...

landofsoapandglory Mon 15-Apr-13 21:31:22

They can't police check spectators though, Gales, also, what about the bins, do they seal them off?

wonderstuff Mon 15-Apr-13 21:31:54

Why on earth would anyone do this, I just can't comprehend. So crazy, those poor poor people. How traumatised must those who aren't injured be? Tragic

Darkesteyes Mon 15-Apr-13 21:34:07

According to what has been coming into my feed some of the Newtown families were there. my thoughts are with everyone affected.

landofsoapandglory Mon 15-Apr-13 21:35:06

They just said there has been a 3rd explosion at the JFK library in Boston.

I guess that rules out an accident!

They are reporting the third device on sky now, in a hotel apparently.

Sory JFK library not a hotel

Hulababy Mon 15-Apr-13 21:36:51

BBC have reported two more devices found; controlled explosions to occur.

AuntieStella Mon 15-Apr-13 21:37:24

The distance between the first known two blasts made it exceedingly unlikely it could be an accident. The third explosion (and reports of other suspicious objects) make it look criminal beyond doubt, as do the imposition of noticeable security restrictions in other cities eg round the White House.

Awful scenes. My heart goes out to them all x

Isityouorme Mon 15-Apr-13 21:40:45

JFK library is apparently just a fire and not related to explosions.

Gales Mon 15-Apr-13 21:44:01

The route including bins is checked by sniffer dogs and whatever other science they use these days. We are only allowed to use clear plastic bags for rubbish.

BBC now reporting that White House not locked down at all.

One explosion was outside JFK library (BBC)

My friend is running on Sunday he has run every year for the last twenty years.............I wonder if they will cancel it?

landofsoapandglory Mon 15-Apr-13 21:46:31

Isityou according to Reuters police have confirmed it was an explosion at JFK library.

Gales Mon 15-Apr-13 21:47:13

I'd be amazed if they do Lottie. And disappointed. It hasn't occurred to me not to go.

NicholasTeakozy Mon 15-Apr-13 21:52:28

A chap on the BBC says he smelled cordite. What a vile thing to happen.

CutePuppy Mon 15-Apr-13 21:53:35

Was there a third explosion? It isn't on Reuters?

ZZZenagain Mon 15-Apr-13 21:54:04

police commissioner from Boston said 3 explosions, the one at the JFK library was an explosion

ZZZenagain Mon 15-Apr-13 21:54:24

on bbc now

MissAnnersley Mon 15-Apr-13 21:54:48

Yes three explosions. police commissioner is making a statement just now.

ClaraOswinOswald Mon 15-Apr-13 21:55:36

So sad. The people rushing in to help are wonderful. Someone once told me to 'always look for the helpers' when something terrible has happened, it helps prevent despair at the sheer awfulness of what goes on.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Apr-13 21:55:46

I'm worried about the London marathon now. I have 5 friends taking part, 2 for charity in memory of family members. I'm sure they will still want to take part, they 'will not be cowed' but I will be really worried for them.

My heart goes out to those in Boston. A terrible, terrible day for them.

CutePuppy Mon 15-Apr-13 21:57:10

This poor people. My heart goes out to all involved.

KenDoddsDadsDog Mon 15-Apr-13 21:57:57

This is just horrible , all the blood on the pavement. A controlled explosion elsewhere.

HipHopHooray Mon 15-Apr-13 21:59:31

My friend was a mile from finishing - her husband was waiting at the finish line . Thank fuck they're ok and found each other

ClaraOswald Mon 15-Apr-13 21:59:37

I just hope that there won't be any more.

SlowlorisIncognito Mon 15-Apr-13 22:02:19

Guardian says there was a third "incident" at the JFK library and the police comissioner says they are assuming it is related sad

Gales Mon 15-Apr-13 22:06:59

Absolutely HipHop. Did they have a plan to meet up? Runners at London are always advised to have a plan on where to meet in the event of a big emergency, as mobile phones are likely to be useless.

AuntieStella Mon 15-Apr-13 22:10:05

One of the things the commissioner said was that the mobile network in Boston has been taken down for the time being (it can be used to detonate devices remotely); he wasn't saying he expected there were more devices, more that they were treating this incident as ongoing and all precautions are being taken.

Isityouorme Mon 15-Apr-13 22:14:32

Apparently a suspect is in custody, a Saudi national. Not substantiated.

ClayDavis Mon 15-Apr-13 22:14:58

I think they have to assume that the third incident is related until they have definite proof that it isn't. Much better to work from that point of view than to do it the other way and lose evidence because they assume it was unrelated.

Gales Mon 15-Apr-13 22:16:15

Ah that's interesting Auntie. So when mobiles didn't work on 7/7 it might have been done deliberately, rather than due to the networks being overloaded.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Apr-13 22:21:33

They've downed all flights, made Boston no-fly and cut off all mobile comms so far. They've confirmed the controlled explosion in th JFK library and confirmed the 2 dead 6 critical.

I follow 'Anonymous' on Twitter and they are reporting some other stuff, but it doesn't sound right to post it here in case it's all bollocks. Anon are usually on the ball I have found, but they seem to just be RTing a lot of crap.

I'm finding the news rather distasteful TBH, especially in the wake of the 200 deaths in Iraq today, that has barely rated a mention. I'm feeling annoyed with myself, seems rather insensitive to be more interested in this.

JFK wasn't a controlled explosion. There was a fourth device that was controlled.

MiaSparrow Mon 15-Apr-13 22:23:35

Just awful.

Where did you hear that Isity? TV news is about 30 mins behind Twitter, isn't it.

London on Sunday will be the safest ever. BiL is running and 26mo DD will be watching. I'm not worried.

Taking down mobile networks is now a standard thing for incidents like this. especially when it seems to be remotely dentonated devices. It may may well have been the case during 7/7.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Apr-13 22:24:25

God I put 200 dead in Iraq, sorry, sorry that is wrong. 200 injured not dead. 31 confirmed dead.

Isityouorme Mon 15-Apr-13 22:26:02

Mia -on a local US news site. Sky also saying someone is being guarded in hospital.

mummysbigsmiles Mon 15-Apr-13 22:26:53

How horrific !! And the third one has went off near JFK library so probs safe to say it is a terrorist attack! 12 ppl dead. So so heartbreaking!

5madthings Mon 15-Apr-13 22:28:37

This is awful sad

lteve I have not long got in for a run (training for bupa 10k) haven't seen any new today as have been out, hadn't heard about Iraq sad awful sad

Gales Mon 15-Apr-13 22:30:21

BBC says two more devices found and being dismantled.

Isityouorme Mon 15-Apr-13 22:31:20

Sorry, not Sky but Fox.

ClayDavis Mon 15-Apr-13 22:34:16

Public Info department of Boston PD tweeting JFK library appears to be fire related.

This is so awful sad

Isityouorme Mon 15-Apr-13 22:37:29

Just seen the photos of the man -suspect -on a roof near blast scene. Scary stuff. Hope this is it and it is just a inefficient by some nut job.

God bless all those involved.

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Apr-13 22:37:51

It's rotten 5mad sad. A reaction to the upcoming elections of course. Something like 20 car bombs over the course of a few days. There will never be peace over there, I cannot see it in my lifetime.

What kind of world are we bringing our children up in?

Just seen the news about Iraq sad So much loss today

Talkinpeace Mon 15-Apr-13 22:42:09

trouble is that US Airport and other security is SO dire : paranoid and overt but hopeless ...

the only airport I've seen with no security checks on staff and arrivals and departures mixing and no security on leaving the building was on the eastern Seaboard.

5madthings Mon 15-Apr-13 22:42:18

I have just read it join BBC news sad numerous car bombs and shootings of police.

My dad fought in the first gulf war, for what its worse now than it ever has been sad

And yes what works is this for our children, ds2 wants to join the army and whilst I would be incredibly proud of him, I find the prospect terrifying.

So much speculation on who has done this, I wonder if we ever know, will a terrorist group claim it to be their work?

vivizone Mon 15-Apr-13 22:43:44

Sad state of affairs.

BeyondIsBloodOfTheDragon Mon 15-Apr-13 22:45:00

Bloody awful sad so glad to see human kindness stories come out of this though, many more good people in the world than bad.

<speculation warning!>
How to put this... Does anyone else have a niggly feeling that if its a lone nutjob, theres a possibility its the holiday thats relevant?

Januarymadness Mon 15-Apr-13 22:48:05

I am watching cnn. They are being very careful not to jump to conclusions about who is responsible.

Januarymadness Mon 15-Apr-13 22:51:11

It is good reporting actually. Eye witness reports and experts who arent whipping up speculation.

morethanpotatoprints Mon 15-Apr-13 22:54:26

This is speculation as well, but before I knew it was a holiday today, I suggested to ds2 that I had a niggly feeling it was tourist related rather than Political.
It must be a good time for tourism as its the most famous marathon in the world, apparently.

Those poor innocent people, not just America but iraq as well. How do we tell our dc about the awful world we live in.

Its obviously going to be some time before we know exactly what happened and why.

Januarymadness Mon 15-Apr-13 23:06:22

we grew up in a terrible world too. Bombings are peppered throughout my childhood memories. Our DC hopefully will grow up thinking there are some awful people in the world but there are many more good than bad. Look at all those people running to help.

Wallison Mon 15-Apr-13 23:11:06

Re deaths in Iraq, no-one even knows how many people have died since the (illegal) invasion. Estimates range from the tens of thousands up to a million. And yet there is little to no media coverage .

snice Mon 15-Apr-13 23:11:33

obama is adressing US now

MiniTheMinx Mon 15-Apr-13 23:24:17

I wonder what he will have to say. Seems strange for it to have happened on Patriots day! surely this latest "terror attack" will erode more constitutional rights.

snice Mon 15-Apr-13 23:38:44

CNN are reporting that one of the dead is an 8 yr old

Gfofjourno Mon 15-Apr-13 23:39:16

It's an awful situation

MiniTheMinx Mon 15-Apr-13 23:39:51

sad bloody awful

I'm incredibly heartened to see all the people rushing to help, both at the marathon and online.

AuntieStella Tue 16-Apr-13 00:02:00

The paramedic whose interview I mentioned upthread said there were children amongst the casualties (a term which can encompass both the injured and fatalities) but perhaps best to wait for official confirmation, both for numbers (rising?) and identities.

Mimishimi Tue 16-Apr-13 00:12:40

It will officially be blamed on Iran and used as casus belli to start war with them.

Baron Nathan Rothschild :"^Buy when there is blood in the streets, even if the blood is your own^"

MadameOvary Tue 16-Apr-13 00:30:35

Some runners kept on running to hospitals where they donated blood. What we can be sure of is Bostonians are a tough bunch, and will pull together in a great big "fuck you" to the divisive, destructive cowards who tried to ruin a great event.

Thruaglassdarkly Tue 16-Apr-13 02:07:08

I suspect it's an all American bombing sadly....

Thruaglassdarkly Tue 16-Apr-13 02:08:37

Obama is dividing the nation...America has not been this unstable for a long time. And I say that with regret as my husband and kids are American.

Earlybird Tue 16-Apr-13 02:31:51

thruaglass - can you please elaborate on your statement?

Latest news from Boston:
3 Dead (one an 8 year old child), 132 injured (17 critically)
10 amputations so far
5 undetonated devices found around the city
Doctors are pulling ball bearings out of the victims (used as shrapnel generators), which would indicate home-made devices.

Some have speculated that it may be a 'home grown' group/individual as today/tomorrow is the deadline for filing and paying annual Tax forms in America, so possibly someone made a strong/deadly protest.

Others have said they are holding a Saudi national who is in the country on a student visa. No confirmation.

Terrible and tragic.

AuntieStella Tue 16-Apr-13 02:54:54

No just 'no confirmation' - plain statement that, despite what has Ben said by some media, "there is no suspect''(Boston police at 0155UK time)

It is being treated by FBI as a 'potential terrorist attack'.

Nothing official has been released about the nature or condition of casualties (other than 'some gravely'), but numbers are now said to be 'more than 100' (Governor Patrick at 2nd press conference).

Mimishimi Tue 16-Apr-13 03:26:30

Apparently the rock band Muse did a concert there on April 12th for the event. Their final song, Survival, was dedicated to the marathoners. You can see a video of that here ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJni0gRypCM

These are the lyrics sad

Race, life’s a race
And I am gonna win
Yes, I am gonna win

And I’ll light the fuse
And I’ll never lose
And I choose to survive
Whatever it takes
You won’t pull ahead
I’ll keep up the pace
And I’ll reveal my strength
To the whole human race
Yes I am prepared
To stay alive
I won’t forgive, the vengeance is mine
And I won’t give in
Because I choose to thrive

I’m gonna win

Race, it’s a race
But I’m gonna win
Yes I’m gonna win
And I will light the fuse
I’ll never lose
And I choose to survive
Whatever it takes
You won’t &#7767;ull ahead
I’ll keep up the pace
And I’ll reveal my strength
To the whole human race
Yes I’m gonna win

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Win! Win! Win! Win!

Yes I’m gonna win

MyShoofly Tue 16-Apr-13 03:31:19

where I am they are saying that it is being widely reported that an 8 year old is among the dead sad.

god I hope not. Just awful all around.

Sibble Tue 16-Apr-13 04:43:26

same here and 3 now dead

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8554727/Boston-attack-Three-dead-manhunt-widens

Just horrendous. My heart goes out to Boston.

noblegiraffe Tue 16-Apr-13 05:04:24

I'm reminded of the film Four Lions where terrorists target the London Marathon with home-made explosives.

I suppose marathons are events where you have an awful lot of people over a wide area of the city where security can't be managed like at stadium.

Bastards whoever did this, whatever their reasons.

AuntieStella Tue 16-Apr-13 05:16:20

It's just gone midnight there. So probably I will be another 8 or 9 hours before there are further official statements.

VivaLeBeaver Tue 16-Apr-13 06:37:31

I might be wrong but I suspect this isn't anything to do with Al Queda, etc. I think it's more likely its an individual in the same vein as the Oklahoma City bombing.

sad my heart goes out to the families of the victims.

tinkletinklestar Tue 16-Apr-13 07:01:04

Good lord its horrendous?

My first thought was north Korea due to it being the anniversary day and they have been making threats.

Has anyone seen the pic of the man on the roof? Made the hairs stand up!

Lazyjaney Tue 16-Apr-13 07:34:39

Yy ViveleBeaver, quite a few of the US internal bombings etc seem to happen on Patriots day.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/15/us/patriots-day-boston-bombing/

So much for a 10 year War on Terror.

flaminghoopsaloohlah Tue 16-Apr-13 09:07:56

"When I was a little boy, and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, 'Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.'" - Fred Rogers.

It's so awful. That poor little boy sad

I'm American and my gut feeling is that this is domestic right-wing terrorism. Boston is the seat of American revolution, it was not only Patriots Day but tax filing day -- all of these are big themes in right-wing extremism in the US. Also no one has claimed responsibility, and usually AQ related groups do so.

Obviously I could be wrong, I don't mean to speculate too much. It just really worries me because I lived in DC during the 1990s, when right-wing extremism was also quite widespread, and in addition to OK City there were many many other planned attacks that were averted. So it could get quite bad. And America is so much more divided than before, I'm worried how it will handle it.

flaminghoopsaloohlah Tue 16-Apr-13 11:31:26

I was thinking the same thing, Bohemian...I also blame the media for a lot of this terrorism/shootings etc. I often feel that we are giving the sickos who do this kind of thing exactly what they want....

You could be right Bohemian and how awful it all is. That poor little boy and all the other victims. Thoughts with all the families.

neriberi Tue 16-Apr-13 13:23:35

This is so awful. I'm speechless, I hope the London Marathon isn't targeted this Sunday.

JillJ72 Tue 16-Apr-13 13:54:09

Horrible, my thoughts with those affected. Just looked at the pictures on BBC and lump in throat at sight of man with his trousers shredded.....

It's a blessing there were so many medical professionals on hand to help, and just so many people willing to help. Humanity can be so kind.

I hope they get the person(s) who did this. What is the point???

WhoPaintedTheLion Tue 16-Apr-13 15:52:35

Just heard an interview with someone who knows the family of the young boy who lost his life. The father ran the marathon, and the mother is critically injured. There's a girl too, she lost a leg. Gut wrenching. Heart wrenching.

MelodyBaker Tue 16-Apr-13 16:42:07

My thoughts go to those affected. I hope that the people/person who did this is brought to justice, it is not fair, so many people's lives will never be the same again.

mathanxiety Tue 16-Apr-13 17:17:38

I also suspect domestic terrorism. The anniversary of the Branch Davidian thing is coming up and also the Oklahoma City bombing, on top of national tax day, and Patriot Day in Massachusetts. Plus many runners at the marathon were sponsored by gun control groups and the Sandy Hook parents were prominent recently.

I saw a report that as of late evening yesterday Boston time surgeons had done a lot of amputations. There was talk of ball bearings in the devices doing catastrophic damage.

mathanxiety Tue 16-Apr-13 17:24:41

Thruaglassdarkly -- President Obama was elected with a majority of the popular vote, not just by the Electoral College. How can you say that he is the one dividing America?

Why are you blaming a president who clearly has majority support for the deliberate divisiveness of the right and the political stalemate it has caused? Obama ran on a platform that very clearly included all of the policies he is pursuing now that he is in office. The electorate has spoken on those policies. It rejected the Romney/Ryan platform and supported the Obama platform. The refusal of the right to accept the will of the majority is the problem in America.

Talkinpeace Tue 16-Apr-13 17:36:47

thruaglassdarkly
As an American I find your comment bang out of order.
Dubya divided the USA as much as Obama ever will.
The USA is indeed an incredibly divided country (something that Europeans really do not realise the scale of) but it has been for many, many years.

Kinnane Tue 16-Apr-13 17:49:21

mathanxiety and Talkinpeace
I so agree!

expatinscotland Tue 16-Apr-13 23:46:23

STOP speculating. That is sickening.

Why is it sickening?

Something awful has happened. It's human nature to ask why, or who did this.

As long as it's responsible speculation, i.e. based on confirmed details, knowledge of wider political and historical context, I think that's okay.

Though I agree that speculation along the lines of 'something blew up, must be Muslims' or 'the government did it to justify another war' is sickening.

skippedtheripeoldmango Wed 17-Apr-13 09:37:07

Dreaming - I think the only answer to why really is that some people think reasonable, respectful debate is not as effective shouting and ordering people around and when that isn't effective some are wired to think it's better to go a step further, or skip steps one and two entirely, and just go for harming fellow human beings. Some people are just wired that way - they feel it is their God given right to do what the heck they like to get their point across (sometimes sickeningly in the name of their God too).

Skipped -- I think that's a big part of 'why', but in my opinion you can't just look to human psychology. The broader political, economic and social context does matter too.

Modern terrorism has been around since the 19th century. If it were really just a matter of human psychology, we would expect to see consistent levels of terrorism since then -- but we don't. There are big bursts and falls, in response to many political and societal factors.

Right now people are looking at Boston and saying: is this international terrorism of the sort we've been dealing with a lot in recent years -- or is this the hallmark of a new era of right-wing terrorism, which will probably be unlike what we've seen before? It's a hugely important question. We might be dealing with pathologically violent people either way, but they will be really different phenomena.

skippedtheripeoldmango Wed 17-Apr-13 10:04:47

Hm....well, while their political/religious/socio-economic beliefs may be different, don't all people who believe their beliefs (whatever those beliefs may be) should be foisted upon everyone else and that they should do this by methods of violence have an inherent God-complex and complete lack of empathy for anyone outside of their compact circle of belief?

The context matters - because without context we can't understand their particular brand of hatred - but even without the context, they still resort to the same answer to their frustrating problem - kill and maim to get the attention they feel they so rightly deserve.

Yes, that's true. If you look at extremists and ideological killers all over the world, they tend to have very similar narratives that justify their violence, similar 'vanguard' or messianic tendencies.... the details in the ideology are different but the overall thought processes are very similar.

The details are important, though, in terms of trying to prevent that violence. You can't just try to stop every crazy individual out there, you need something to focus on.

Talkinpeace Wed 17-Apr-13 17:31:27

You can't just try to stop every crazy individual out there

Well actually that is what most of the civilised world does do - with gun controls, weapons controls and decent mental health support free at the point of contact.

Even after Sandy Hook and now this, the USA cannot grasp that most nutters so nasty stuff because they can. So the best thing to do is to reduce access to equipment and increase mental health support.

The nearest UK equivalent is probably David Copeland en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Copeland

skippedtheripeoldmango Wed 17-Apr-13 17:45:31

Talk - we seem to be on the same page on some of the politics happening in the USA - I quite often despaired during the 6 years I spent over there (but also experienced some truly wonderful things too). To be fair though, we really don't know who is responsible for this as yet.

Talkinpeace Wed 17-Apr-13 18:04:21

skipped
I was born there. I could move my family there no problem.
But until the paranoia and guns are dealt with I'll stay in the UK.

I found the security at Newark Airport this winter just shocking and it shows and an attitude that I'd rather not live amidst.

As has been said on a lot of the rational media, if it was a pressure cooker and scrap metal, it will be the same as the ones that go off in Iraq and Afghanistan several times a day, every day.

MyShoofly Wed 17-Apr-13 19:41:18

I have lost my ability to cope with this kind of news.

I start to tear up whenever I think of that 8 year old and his mum lying in critical condition....if she pulls through she'll awake to find her little one gone.

Too sad for words really sad

I don't know, Talkin, plenty of countries in the civilised world, ones with gun control and free health care, also experience terrorist attacks. The UK has historically suffered from terrorism more than the US. Norway had its own awful tragedy last year.

I do agree with you re gun control and all that, I just think you need more than that. As you say, this was a pressure cooker and scrapnel.

Talkinpeace Wed 17-Apr-13 21:07:09

dreaming
but the USA has "going postal" events monthly and still has not clamped down on the rules
as the UK did after Dunblane / Hungerford etc and after the IRA were forced into cease fire.
You cannot stop all but you can at least make an effort : the USA sticks its fingers in its ears and shouts NRA

the Boston ones were Gunpowder : from where ...

Tee2072 Thu 18-Apr-13 09:56:59

And after yesterdays vote? I am more ashamed at my countries attitude than ever.

Tee2072 Thu 18-Apr-13 09:59:30

Sorry that was really badly written.

After yesterday's failure of the Background Checks Bill, I am once again ashamed to be an American.

I am so glad I live in the UK.

Not that I think that bill would have helped in this case since you can make a bomb from common household products, but it would have helped in the future.

skippedtheripeoldmango Thu 18-Apr-13 10:23:51

More head shaking from me...I just don't' understand what is happening over there, at all. I met so many wonderful people - thoughtful, respectful, critical thinkers...and yet their voices just seem to get continually drowned out by people who just point the finger screaming "unpatriotic" and other such nonsense - using fear and shame to try to silence reason.

Talkin, I agree, I just think there's a difference between 'going postal' events and terrorism (although some overlap). The US clearly has a huge problem with the former, while lots of countries are struggling with terrorism.

I also can't believe the vote yesterday. 90% of Americans support expanded background checks and they still voted it down! Sickening.

I do wonder if people overseas understand that it's basically a problem of corruption, ie the NRA essentially buying votes. I'm not sure European countries have anything like the American lobbyist system.

With all this and the ricin and the explosion in Texas, it's all feeling a bit end of days to me. What a horrible week.

skippedtheripeoldmango Thu 18-Apr-13 12:05:57

Lobbyists are the black death.

Talkinpeace Thu 18-Apr-13 15:47:21

Another expat Yank who is genuinely horrified that the legislators can be so crass and self serving to rate the bungs they get from the NRA higher than their electors' lives.

What happened at the MIT?

Looks like a police officer was shot sad

The Guardian is running a live blog on everything that's happening. It's completely bonkers. At least they caught one of the guys.

There's a feed where people are apparently listening to police scanners, and they've just said that it sounds like the 2nd suspect is dead. Wait to see if they are right.

AuntieStella Fri 19-Apr-13 10:47:56

Police conference being broadcast live on SKY right now. Situation is described as "fluid". All public transport suspended. Residents told to go home and stay indoors, and not answer doors unless to uniformed police.

AuntieStella Fri 19-Apr-13 10:48:33

All businesses in specified areas told not to open.

AuntieStella Fri 19-Apr-13 10:52:06

One police officer shot dead, another shot and hospitalised. Another person, an unidentified adult male, confirmed to have died of wounds from shooting in hospital (confirmed by hospital); believed but not officially confirmed to be one of the suspects.

Not sure of the time difference, but I assume people are just starting to wake in Watertown, how will people be notified if they haven't checked the news before leaving the house?

AuntieStella Fri 19-Apr-13 10:56:38

I suppose they'll realise very quickly that there is no traffic.

Good on the police officer giving the press conference: he's basically just told the mass media to stuff off - he knows they have lots of questions, but right now all officials are dealing with protecting the neighbourhoods affected and he told them they'll just have to wait.

Scruffalo Fri 19-Apr-13 11:35:01

3 men in a cab arrested, but not confirmed if one is the suspect

The time difference is about 5 hours behind; local news seems to have started broadcasting in the wee hours of the morning. A fair number of my friends in the area seem to have been awake at the time to hear the news - they were making FB posts about an hour or two ago. One was working nightshift in the area, another was woken up by her phone's news app, and the rest all seem to have had trouble sleeping this week.

The Boston Globe is also updating. www.boston.com

AuntieStella Fri 19-Apr-13 11:53:31

Unconfirmed reports of a Chechen link.

No confirmed news on any possible developments from official sources (unsurprising) but there is a specific area that can be seen to be cordoned off, so some focussed activity.

AuntieStella Fri 19-Apr-13 12:55:43

The names of the suspects have now been officially confirmed. They are brothers, and the names are ethnically Chechen.

AuntieStella Fri 19-Apr-13 13:04:14

"Shelter in place" has been extended across Boston.

niceguy2 Fri 19-Apr-13 13:14:50

if it was a pressure cooker and scrap metal

The tragic thing is that the US would find it easier to ban all pressure cookers than guns.

The events are shocking but I can't help but admire the speed at which the US law enforcement have moved at and the sheer manpower & hardware available. I doubt the UK could respond at the same pace.

Moominsarehippos Fri 19-Apr-13 13:36:08

Um, could someone update me please? I'm on the blackberry and it won't load the news sites! One dead, one on the run?

AnyaKnowIt Fri 19-Apr-13 13:38:35

yep one dead, one on the run

About six communities around Boston are shut down. Police are searching house to house for the younger suspect. Everyone has been advised to stay inside with their doors locked and businesses have been advised to remain closed.

Are we allowed to post links to Twitter feeds? https://twitter.com/BostonGlobe

AuntieStella Fri 19-Apr-13 13:51:58

The news conference at 1300 UK time said the precautions have been extended across Boston now. The situation was described as "fluid"

There are clear signs of continuing police/military activity (iespecially n one specific area), but most reporting is speculation as the press simply aren't allowed in and nothing's being briefed officially.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 19-Apr-13 13:54:12

must be terrifying for the people who live there sad

ophelia275 Fri 19-Apr-13 14:16:14

Lets hope they get this maniac soon before he kills anyone else.

YoniMaroney Fri 19-Apr-13 14:31:51
Moominsarehippos Fri 19-Apr-13 14:57:33

Still on the blackberry so out of the newsloop... Were they religious nuts then? I was hoping for a general crazy person (if 'hope' is the right word).

YoniMaroney Fri 19-Apr-13 15:07:16

There is a Chechen separatist movement, but I don't think the US would be a logical target for a Chechen separatist attack - I think the US has given asylum to Chechen separatist leaders in the past, so it seems that this is probably motivated by Islamism.

Moominsarehippos Fri 19-Apr-13 15:12:23

That is just so sad. What a bloody awful thing.

somebloke123 Fri 19-Apr-13 16:38:35

The suspects' uncle Ruslan Tsarni is speaking in Maryland. "We're Muslims, we're ethnic Chechens... somebody radicalised them." He says he has not seen the two in several years

LulaPalooza Fri 19-Apr-13 16:46:39

Have you seen the pictures of him? He looks so young and... ordinary. Like any other teenage boy.

LulaPalooza Fri 19-Apr-13 16:48:51

somebloke - the Chechen President said something similar, but in much stronger terms link here

Talkinpeace Fri 19-Apr-13 18:22:16

I had a yummy breakfast of a stack of pancakes with maple syrup and bacon and OJ with my kids in Watertown a few years back.

shudder

scaevola Sat 20-Apr-13 00:45:35

There's a spate of activity, and (unconfirmed) reports that the second suspect has been either pinned down or killed.

Scruffalo Sat 20-Apr-13 01:45:21

suspect is in custody

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Sat 20-Apr-13 03:53:12

If anyone's watching bbc, how many people are they bringing out to pat themselves on the back and say justice has been served? Surely justice is for the courts?

Al0uise Sat 20-Apr-13 06:22:41

Islam being a peaceful religion again. The religion of love and peace and we must be careful not to face reality.

GoblinGranny Sat 20-Apr-13 06:49:59

In exactly the same way that Christianity is a religion of love and peace Al0ise?
The Lord's Resistance army are Christian, the problem is one of fundamentalist extremism and intolerance, whatever the faith.

scaevola Sat 20-Apr-13 07:54:52

BBC on the capture. The President has said 'there are so many questions unanswered'.

Is there 100% proof that he actually is the bomber? Only they pumped a load of bullets into him, he's 19, am I the only one who feels uncomfortable with this?

NotSpartacus Sat 20-Apr-13 08:13:11

Dreams -
He was there with his brother (see numerous photos)
They had backpacks to start with; then they didn't
His brother has been positively identified by one of the victims who saw him place the bag
And when the police came they apparently started shooting at them (you'd think an innocent person would come out with his hands up).
Seems fairly likely they did it to me.

Personally I think it's pretty good that the police took him alive in the circumstances.

scaevola Sat 20-Apr-13 08:36:29

It's not been proven that they were the bombers, but the information and pictures released make a good prima facie case. I think it's beyond doubt that they shot and killed a police offer and left another in a critical state in hospital, and that they threw explosives during the first attempted arrest.

Earlybird Sat 20-Apr-13 13:03:56

According to reports, there is a photo (that was not released by the FBI) that shows one of the men setting down his backpack and striding away. Moments later, the explosion occurred at that exact place. The debris that was found shows that this black backpack contained the bomb.

I think there is little room to doubt that these men were responsible.

VivaLeBeaver Sat 20-Apr-13 13:06:14

I think if they were innocent they wouldn't have been throwing grenades at the police the other night. Innocent people don't tend to have a stash of grenades on them.

Innocent, looking at the pictures i very much doubt it. Justice has and will be served

LinusVanPelt Sat 20-Apr-13 13:55:58

"They pumped a load of bullets into him". Yes, while he was chucking grenades around and carjacking people and shooting at the police.

I feel pretty uncomfortable that he's only nineteen too (though I'm guessing it's his older brother you can blame there, for exploiting his youth and vulnerability to being led way, way out of his depth), and last night while he was being hunted I couldn't help but empathise a bit with how terrified and maybe full of regret he might have felt.

But it's ridiculous to blame the police for the fact that he was injured in the events that he and his brother set in motion. The police did an amazing job, at great risk to themselves, and the kid ended up in the hospital instead if the morgue. What do you think they should have done differently, exactly?!

Moominsarehippos Sat 20-Apr-13 14:09:37

Assuming they are guilty (always have to assume I suppose), it has to go further than these two though, doesn't it? Someone must have been feeding them the idea/justifications to set off the bombs.

Although there have been cases of one or two teenager/twentysomething going on a killing spree without a religious agenda, just a grudge against society or classmates for perceived snubs.

Again, bombs aside, enough guns and ammo privately owned to hold off the police force.

I was almost in tears when Barak made his speech earlier this week after the gun law fiasco. A lot of people must be hanging their heads in shame now (but I know that they are most likely not).

Moominsarehippos Sat 20-Apr-13 14:14:57

A 19 year old may have the 'stupidity of youth' but he went out with the idea to kill (Glory, notoriety, legend?) and more than likely knew that they had murdered a child. Did he really think he could escape? Why not give himself up? Scared - well, didn't he think out what might happen? He didn't strap the bomb to himself, so was planning to escape.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 16:09:52

The pair had already shot dead a policeman before the gunfight hadn't they? I don't think you can blame the police for treating them as extremely dangerous individuals - even if they weren't the bombers, which it seems exceptionally likely that they were.

mathanxiety Sat 20-Apr-13 16:15:48

The video shows them placing devices filled with small metal bits in a crowd. Only their mother believes they were set up.

It is possible the police operated on the assumption that these individuals would feel they had nothing to lose/ were willing to use suicide bomber tactics in which case stopping them with maximum force if necessary was the obvious way to proceed.

mathanxiety Sat 20-Apr-13 16:24:02

Their uncle was asked about their motivation and his response was, 'Being losers, hatred to those who were able to settle themselves' - imo this is a very insightful comment.

Moominsarehippos Sat 20-Apr-13 16:41:08

Their mum thinks they were set up? I'd love to see how that works.

niceguy2 Sat 20-Apr-13 17:14:13

Pumped a load of bullets into him? They were throwing grenades and shooting back for quite some time. In that context i don't think a few harsh words was really going to cut it!

Moominsarehippos Sat 20-Apr-13 17:38:32

If someone was lobbing grenades and shooting at me, I'd shoot back (and wouldn't presume that I could get a nice, clean 'wing' shot). Didn't the older brother have some kind of explosive vest on him? Negotiation isn't going to work.

Younger children/teenagers than this are abducted trained to kill for armies/malitias in other parts of the world - just as cold and deadly killers as a 40 year old (worse maybe?).

NicholasTeakozy Sat 20-Apr-13 20:07:22

A very interesting article not being covered by MSM.

MarvellousYou Sat 20-Apr-13 20:13:06

Just watching BBC news and the streets were lined with teenagers celebrating the 2nd suspect has been found- anyone else find that a bit distasteful or 'off'. DH thinks I'm weird but it just really felt wrong even if they are relieved. Most of them waving at the cameras <boak>

Marvellousyou, not just you. I found it all rather horrifying.

tribpot Sat 20-Apr-13 20:24:46

I got the impression yesterday it was mostly relief the lockdown was over and to show defiance to the 'organisation' which had attacked them (not that I think there actually was much of an organisation behind these two now?)

One thing that did stick in my throat was one of the interviewees on the Beeb saying 'we want to show that we won't become immune to the effects of attacks like these like you see in other countries'. Er, yeah. The bombs that get tossed about in Iraq may not get as much air time as the ones in Boston but I don't think that means the people there aren't too bothered when they go off.

MarvellousYou Sat 20-Apr-13 20:49:35

I think maybe it was just the shouts of 'it's over' and the cheering but there are so many people whose lives have been changed forever. It was probably just how the BBC reported it but it got my back up. Glad people feel safer though.

Talkinpeace Sat 20-Apr-13 20:53:01

The USA has no experience of domestic terrorism in the way that we did with the IRA in the 1970's.
Heightened security in the UK gets a shrug and OK from most people - we 'get' the reason.
The USA has never had that learning curve. Hence the reactions.

mathanxiety Sun 21-Apr-13 00:03:03

Bullets have the same effect no matter how old the gunman is.

The US is a very law-abiding country. People are very civic-spirited and many contribute a lot of time to their communities. Volunteering is a way of life to a greater extent than anywhere else I have seen. People appreciate what they have and know what it has taken to get it. There is very little sympathy for anyone who wants to destroy what so many have built up. People especially appreciate the freedom to go about their business without having bags checked at public gatherings, etc. I think that lies behind some of the feeling exhibited when this man was apprehended.

Talkinpeace Sun 21-Apr-13 17:53:29

you and I must go to different places

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 08:43:43

Am I the only one here to feel that there is something not quite right here with how this has all been presented? Too many unanswered big questions, looose threads, oddnesses.... I'm no tin hat type but ... I certainly hope the accused get a fair trial. Hmmmm...

VivaLeBeaver Mon 22-Apr-13 08:49:50

There's an awful lot of conspiracy theories on the interweb.

No, I don't think there's anything dodgy about all this. It's barely been a week, one suspect is dead and the other can't speak, of course there are still unanswered questions.

The government can't win. If they had answers for everything then the nutjobs would be all, oh isn't that neat and tied up.... TOO neat and tied up...

I can't fucking stand truthers.

noblegiraffe Mon 22-Apr-13 09:11:29

That this guy is a patsy??

NicholasTeakozy Mon 22-Apr-13 11:35:11

More questions raised here. Every terror plot in the US since 2001 has been instigated by the FBI which leaves me wondering whether this one was too, and they took their eye off the ball.

Oh please.

What do you mean instigated by the FBI? You do realise the FBI is the counterterrorism agency within the US, of course they will be involved in anything remotely connected to it.

That article doesn't really raise any valid questions. None of this seems all that strange if you know a lot about terrorism and the latest thinking on radicalisation. I imagine it will all make a lot more sense as time goes on and more evidence emerges.

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 12:34:55

OK - some things don't seem to add up to me.

1. The guy caught is pictured climbing out of the boat looking fine,able to get himself out. It's from a video but only this clip is given. The thermal imaging video ends before he comes out. Then the papers show him on the ground and in the ambulance in photos, with an oxygen mask on looking bloody in the face. Clearly there is a gap of some time between getting out (basically fine) and being at death's door with his throat shot out. Videos exist of this as we've seen them earlier - no reason to assume they stopped videoing then. But we're not shown these or any pics. Instead we're told 'he probably shot himself in the mouth'. Either he did or he didn't. If he did, it's on camera. So why not shown? Seems odd. And rather conveient that he can't now talk and tell his own story, except mediated through bits of paper - who is to know if some words on paper are by him or not?

2. We are told that video exists of him planting the bomb. Pretty conclusive if true. But so far, we have just other people's words that this video footage exists.

3. Literally every single person who describes him who knows him has said the younger brother is a really nice normal guy. Normally, when you have psychos who kill lots of people, it is afterwards generally acknowledged they were a bit/a lot odd. But this guy went to parties afterwards, appeared totally normal and relaxed to everyone who knew him and was universally liked. The older brother seems to have been less likeable and more fantical, but again it's certainly not a given that this is enough motivation. Seems...odd.

4. Motivation - being Moslem - even quite keen - is not on its own enough. Nor is being Chechen - the Chechens have no history at all of terrorism outside Russia and experts say it is v unexpected and atypical. The Chechen leadership disown it and say they have no interest in bombing anywhere outside Russia. So if they did do it, why?

And that's before you get onto photos of others, backpacks that may or not be missing etc etc which is where you start getting tin hatty IMO. The commonsense mysteries are enough for me.

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 12:40:42

Maybe they did do it - but it's essential the one left gets a fair trial. Which the business with Miranda rights sounds like it might not be the case. Loss of iinocent lives should not be the precursor to loss of basic rights for American citizens generally - one tragedy should not lead to another, the latter self-inflicted.

But again -- it's one week after the bombing, only a few days since they caught the guys. Do you really expect the FBI to have a fully coherent, nicely packaged presentation of all the evidence ready for public consumption? They are still investigating. I'm sure all your questions will be answered at some point.

Sorry but I find it mindboggling that people are worried about these 'mysteries' and jumping to conspiracy theories, just because they don't have the full story immediately available. This isn't CSI, in real life all this stuff takes a lot of time, way more than people think.

On motivation for example, that will only come out after weeks, if not months, of sifting through every aspect of these young men's lives, with a wide variety of experts weighing in.

Motivation is never simple anyway. It's always a mix of the political and the personal. You can't even take the perpetrator's words at face value, none of them are going to say 'I killed people because I'm a loser who sucks at life'.

I think it was a couple years before they figured out how much Timothy McVeigh's motivations were affected by his PTSD.

Life is not always sinister. Sometimes it's just complicated, and messy.

Ponders Mon 22-Apr-13 13:38:37

The guy caught is pictured climbing out of the boat looking fine,able to get himself out

is he getting out or getting in? which pic is it, breadandbutterfly - have you got a link?

I just wish the media would stop reporting all the delusional nonsense the mother keeps spouting about how they rang her every day & told her everything - I have sons of similar ages & I know they censor very quite heavily what they choose to tell me hmm

NicholasTeakozy Mon 22-Apr-13 13:41:32

Press for truth article.

Activist Post article towards the bottom of which they state:-

"Fact: the FBI has been involved in staging numerous fake terror plots using patsies to make themselves look like heroes when they stop the attack. Now they've been caught in a web of lies surrounding one that went live and resulted in the deaths of Americans"

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 13:42:36

Hope you're right, Bohemian. I would certainly much prefer this to be the work of 2 unbalanced nutters, pref with lessons that can be learnt in terms of what caused them to do it, than some sort of mysterious undercover and unknown involvement from somewhere else.

TenBitSailor Mon 22-Apr-13 13:45:11

Someone posted this on my wall, not sure what to make of it? confused

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 13:45:50

Ponders - it's the main photo which has been labelled in virtually all media as a picture of him getting out. Why would there be a pic of him getting in? And if you're going to say there was CCTV conveniently shooting all the time then why do we see none from when he was out of the boat - why only thermal imaging stuff which stops short of when he emerges?

It doesn't make any sense. But someone accused of a v serious crime may never speak again as a result. So I think we should be shown.

scaevola Mon 22-Apr-13 13:45:51

"But we're not shown these or any pics. Instead we're told 'he probably shot himself in the mouth'. Either he did or he didn't. If he did, it's on camera. So why not shown?"

That footage is of someone one being shot fgs. It's not a movie. Isn't it obvious why it's not suitable or broadcast?

noblegiraffe Mon 22-Apr-13 13:49:11

If the FBI were going to set up patsies, wouldn't they pick middle-eastern bearded types? Boosting support for foreign war efforts, etc.

It doesn't make sense that if it was a set-up, they'd pick western-looking supposedly happy-go-lucky Chechens. Their problem is with Russia, not the US.

TenBitSailor Mon 22-Apr-13 13:50:17

Sorry, should have warned you, is gruesome.

Ponders Mon 22-Apr-13 13:50:45

ok, it's the DM, but this is from Sat 20th & says

'This image, taken from a surveillance camera shows Dzhokhar Tsarnaev climbing into a boat Friday morning after a police gun battle. He was later found in the boat and captured'

there are thermal images of him in the boat while they chucked stun grenades in - he would have been pretty battered & bloody climbing out after that!

Ponders Mon 22-Apr-13 13:52:41

& you can see from the pics of the boat after the gun battle that the cover was completely shredded

it isn't shredded in the CCTV image

noblegiraffe Mon 22-Apr-13 13:57:11

Tenbit, there are three people dead including an 8 year old boy and 170 odd people in hospital with horrific injuries including multiple amputees.

If it was all staged, then how the hell do you explain that?

noblegiraffe Mon 22-Apr-13 13:58:08

How can you say he looks fine climbing out of the boat? It's all grainy and really poor light.

TenBitSailor Mon 22-Apr-13 14:01:19

It's not me saying it is staged, just thought I'd add this to the mix as it's in front of me now.

I suppose, the US government being as it is, could well be pretending to have a hospital full and dead people perhaps?

I have no idea.

noblegiraffe Mon 22-Apr-13 14:24:09

And Boston is a city pretending to have hospitals full of injured people? Their family and friends all lying for the FBI?

If whoever posted it on FB thinks it's staged, then they're not really thinking clearly.

Oh right, they're just pretending that all those people are dead and injured. Hundreds of eyewitness accounts and media reportage everywhere, it's all just a show.

Just like on 9/11 where they made those four planeloads of people disappear, presumably to Tahiti or something.

Honestly. I'm not sure you realise how deeply offensive these stupid theories are to people who have actually been affected by these attacks.

I mean really, what is MORE believable?

That hundreds, if not thousands, of people are participating in rogue US government plots, involving the murder of innocent people, just so that government agencies can look good? (The same agencies which, btw, have plenty of actual plots to deal with and look good about?)

OR

That two idiot men, who have clearly had complicated lives, decided for some deranged reason to blow people up?

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 14:42:20

Ponders, the Daily Mail says he's getting OUT of the boat in this article:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2312486/Dzhokhar-Tsarnaev-Bomb-suspect-wakes-answers-FBI-questions-writing-shooting-mouth.html

Clearly they are not the most reliable source...!

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 14:46:52

Actually, my brother said that on his facebook the Chinese woman who died (the one noone mentioned) was a friend of a facebook friend. So a 'real' person and sounds genuine.

I'm not suggeting no-one got hurt - i'm just not terribly convinced that the 2 accused did it. What happened to the person in the car they carjacked who they apparently confessed to but then let get away unharmed. Who is this person? Why were they allowed to get away? All sounds rather convenient, again...

I'm reminded of the landlord guy in the UK murder, where it turned out to be random mad Dutch neighbour. The papers were convinced it was the landlord. It wasn't.

LtEveDallas Mon 22-Apr-13 14:58:28

Fucking Hell Tenbit, that is horrendous and bloody ridiculous.

If someone posted that on my FB wall I'd be very quick to tell them what a cunt they are and defriend them immediately - not give it more publicity.

Disgusting.

mathanxiety Mon 22-Apr-13 15:05:51

NicholasTeakozy your links are all the work of nutjobs.

Tenbit too.

People who watched too many X Files reruns?

noblegiraffe Mon 22-Apr-13 15:27:02

Bread, there are plenty of photos of them at the marathon wearing backpacks. They shot a policemen dead and engaged in a gun battle with other police officers. They threw explosives at the police. One of them died after the gun battle and the other was found hiding in a boat covered in blood.

But you aren't sure they did it? They were pretty well armed for innocents weren't they?

EldritchCleavage Mon 22-Apr-13 15:45:47

it's essential the one left gets a fair trial. Which the business with Miranda rights sounds like it might not be the case

The last US govt limited or revoked Miranda rights for foreign terror suspects.

As for the parents, they were a long long way away from their sons and had been for some time. There may be a measure of guilt (and understandable denial) in how they are now reacting to the accusation their sons were the bombers. This seems to have been a rather fractured family-the sister is reported as saying she hadn't been in contact for a long time.

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 16:33:34

noblegiraffe - I'm sure lots of people at the marathon were wearing backpacks. It's hardly unusual - or a criminal offence. Unless we see evidence that they put the bags down and those bags contained bombs, it's not proof of anything.

Again, we've been told they shot a policeman and threw explosives and the younger even ran over the elder brother - but the police are hardly going to admit to having accidentally shot the suspect dead. It is another fact that seems rather convenient...doesn't mean it is made up - but the proof is still lacking. I'd love to say the police never lie,or that the media never try to pin a crime on an easy target, but I'd be wrong on both counts... so I'd like a bit more than 'an anonymous source said' as my evidence.

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 16:35:59

E;ldritch - the younger brother is an American citizen. So he is entitled to the same rights as any other.

NicholasTeakozy Mon 22-Apr-13 16:36:29

Nutjobs Math? Why? For doubting the official version of events?

EldritchCleavage Mon 22-Apr-13 17:08:43

Yes, I'd forgotten that breadandbutterfly.

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 17:35:43

noblegiraffe - should add that they did run away, true - but this was after they'd had their faces all over the papers as 'guilty of mass murder'. Not sure what most people would do in those circumstances, but running away might seem like a good idea...

mathanxiety Mon 22-Apr-13 17:42:48

Yes, NicholasTeakozy, just that. As DreamingBohemian said:

'what is MORE believable?
That hundreds, if not thousands, of people are participating in rogue US government plots, involving the murder of innocent people, just so that government agencies can look good? (The same agencies which, btw, have plenty of actual plots to deal with and look good about?)
OR
That two idiot men, who have clearly had complicated lives, decided for some deranged reason to blow people up?'

The FBI isn't involved in any kind of popularity sweepstakes.

EldritchCleavage Mon 22-Apr-13 17:44:01

I've no objection to people questioning official accounts, certainly not, but only if it is on a reasoned, rational basis. Suggesting that the myriad eyewitnesses were watching actors and no one is really injured seems not to pass that test, to me.

mathanxiety Mon 22-Apr-13 17:49:29

That is how I feel too.

noddyholder Mon 22-Apr-13 17:53:48

The US is in a bit of a state right now with gun laws etc and so it is easy to see why people are questioning everything. It is not helped by the fact that most terrorist attacks like this have coincided with drills in the same locations.

LtEveDallas Mon 22-Apr-13 18:44:52

The massive bombing of Glenanne (NI, 1991) took place just over a week after a large scale security exercise involving troops from the barracks. Likely targets are always tested, and sadly sometimes it happens for real. It's funny though, there doesn't seem to the same conspiracy theorists abound where NI and the IRA were concerned - just murderous evil bastards.

Earlybird Mon 22-Apr-13 18:59:59
Earlybird Mon 22-Apr-13 19:11:15

From NBC News:

'' The carjacking victim told police his abductors told them they were the marathon bombers and said they would not kill him because he “wasn’t American,” according to a police report obtained by NBC News.
The man, who has asked that his identity not be revealed, told NBC News that he managed to escape and called his captors “brutal and cautious.” "

noddyholder Mon 22-Apr-13 19:13:09

Several terror attacks have coincided with local terror drills. The Boston Globe tweeted that day that there was to be a controlled explosion.And this in London reported by thebbc

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 19:24:39

Why would they volunteer this info to a stranger and then release him? Sounds very odd...

NicholasTeakozy Mon 22-Apr-13 19:25:12

17 questions that remain unanswered. I have another: was this a false flag operation similar to the attempted bombing of The Federal Reserve which was planned with the assistance of the FBI?

noddyholder Mon 22-Apr-13 19:25:52

Doesn't it just bread?

17 questions, my arse.

Why, he's been looking into all this for days. For days!

I really don't want to be that kind of person, but look, I've been doing research in this area professionally for quite a few years now, I've also worked in a number of places that were terrorist targets and spent a lot of time with security people. My current boss is one of the top terrorism experts in the world. All this conspiracy nonsense is bollocks.

Go ahead, have questions, use your reason to think about whether things make sense. I'm not saying we should blindly believe the government.

But the fact that we the public don't know and understand everything within a few days just means that the investigation is not complete and not publicly available. It does not automatically mean there is some ridiculous sinister conspiracy.

Every single day in the US, people flip out and kill innocent people. That's what America is! Why is it so hard to believe that's what happened here?

LtEveDallas Mon 22-Apr-13 19:49:33

Dreaming, 17 questions my arse
I love you right now.

Nicholas, the answer you are looking for is no.

Bread: do you really expect a murderous, evil lunatic to act rationally?

Where were the conspiracy theorists when the PIRA were bombing and killing innocents? Why, just because it is happening in America do all the loons come out of the closet?

claig Mon 22-Apr-13 20:34:38

'Where were the conspiracy theorists when the PIRA were bombing and killing innocents? Why, just because it is happening in America do all the loons come out of the closet?'

Most of teh world's conspiracy theorists are in America. They have a tradition of free speech and have had years of looking into conspiracies from the JFK assassination and before. That is why there are so many conspiracy theories if something happens in America in particular.

There are conspiracy theories about the IRA, but you probably have not heard of them, because there are fewer conspiracy theorists and fewer radio stations and blogs than there are in America.

[[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388110/McGuinness-accused-British-spy.html]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-180324/IRA-rocked-double-agent-revelation.html

claig Mon 22-Apr-13 20:35:26
claig Mon 22-Apr-13 20:43:26

You won't hear many conspiracy theories on BBC Radio 5 Live with Nicky Campbell et al, but in America there are tens of thousands of independent radio stations which discuss politics and also conspiracy theories.

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 21:24:21

Dallas - I suppose that yes, I do expect a "murderous, evil lunatic to act rationally" - maybe that's me being irrational or maybe that's me not being a "murderous, evil lunatic" - don't know. But just because one's morals are twisted,it doesn't mean one would go out of one's way to be caught...in fact probably the opposite.

As I said, I am working on the time-honoured theory of 'innocent until proven guilty'. As long as the prosecutors are too, that's fine.

NicholasTeakozy Mon 22-Apr-13 21:39:31

I don't doubt that these two men carried out these attacks at all. What I do doubt is the role of the FBI in these events, given that they have lied about knowing the men involved, about there being a bomb drill etc. Why would they do that when it's so easily proven that they have?

Ponders Mon 22-Apr-13 21:44:53

breadandbutterfly, when they got to him he had been lying in the boat bleeding, for hours, from the earlier gunshot wounds; then they lobbed shock grenades in; then more shots were exchanged (supposedly)

there is no way he could then have casually climbed out of the boat as shown in that image, whatever some of the captions say!

Ponders Mon 22-Apr-13 21:48:26

did they lie about knowing the men involved, Nicholas? afaik it's only the parents who say the FBI were using them, & they are fruitloops whose stories change hourly hmm

the bomb drill thing, if true, is a bit peculiar, I admit. but I have so far only seen reference to that by one marathon participant

breadandbutterfly Mon 22-Apr-13 21:50:17

Nicholas - obvious reason for lying about knowing them - as it begs the question why they didn't prevent the attacks...

mumat39 Mon 22-Apr-13 22:12:41

I'm another one who feels very uneasy about this and how the suspect is unlikely to receive a fair trial.

They were known to the FBI, so why did they not just go after them instead of releasing pictures of them asking for help in identifying them?

There is something about the younger brother and all the reports from people who were close to him that just doesn't make sense. Also when you see them in the videos at the marathon, they don't look at all shifty or suspicious. Also just after they walk by with their backpacks there is someone else just behind them with an equally big backpack?? So surely something must have been known, about who they were, to draw attention to them.

What happened was terrible, truly awful so I'm not condoning the act at all. There are some things that I just don't understand.

Whatever the outcome is, I just hope we get the truth and that suspect no. 2 gets a fair trial and that we get the answers that will hopefully shed some light on what actually happened and why.

I remember when the jean Charles de menezes shooting happened. Everyone was convinced he was guilty. In the end it was a case of mistaken identity! All that surveillance and an innocent guy was killed.

Talkinpeace Mon 22-Apr-13 22:28:24

THe investigation is ongoing.
Therefore by definition much of the crucial evidence will NOT be in the public domain.
THat is not a conpiracy, it is legal process

and why did the FBI not go for them before they did anything ....
because you have not yet done anything either - would you like the FBI to arreat you 'just in case'

mumat39 Mon 22-Apr-13 23:11:08

I meant go after them if they recognised them from their previous dealings with them.

I realise it's an ongoing investigation. I really just hope that the truth will out.

I don't mean to offend anyone. I've been following this from the beginning and the info is very sketchy. Maybe it's the style of reporting on the tv news channels.

NicholasTeakozy Mon 22-Apr-13 23:18:55

Craft International, formerly known as Blackwater, private military contractors seen at the Boston marathon. Why were they there and what was in the black rucksacks?

Bomb drills at the start and finish lines, and a controlled explosion drill at the library. There are reports of runners who've seen this only at this event.

Also, the Russians have said they informed the FBI about the elder brother in 2011. The FBI initially denied they knew about that then admitted they'd interviewed him and decided he wasn't a threat. Righto.

It's a fact that this is the first successful terrorist attack on US soil since the twin towers. It's also a fact that the FBI has thwarted at least three other attempts. Another fact is the FBI helped plan those other attempts and intercepted at the right time. Who can say with any certainty they weren't involved in this and took their eye off the ball? Especially given that they lied about knowing the brothers despite proof showing they did.

I went to school at a time when you were given an essay/assignment and told to do it, not like now when you're coached to pass exams. My son has said his education started at uni as he actually had to do his own research. He feels cleverer as a result.

Ponders Mon 22-Apr-13 23:25:29

Another fact is the FBI helped plan those other attempts and intercepted at the right time.

evidence, please

NicholasTeakozy Tue 23-Apr-13 00:07:53

Here's one The FBI even drove him to the scene. It's all searchable online (I use Startpage, other search engines are available) and takes but moments.

mathanxiety Tue 23-Apr-13 03:05:21

That is not a fact. That is a (completely nutty) theory.

'It's a fact that this is the first successful terrorist attack on US soil since the twin towers. It's also a fact that the FBI has thwarted at least three other attempts. Another fact is the FBI helped plan those other attempts and intercepted at the right time. Who can say with any certainty they weren't involved in this and took their eye off the ball? Especially given that they lied about knowing the brothers despite proof showing they did.

I went to school at a time when you were given an essay/assignment and told to do it, not like now when you're coached to pass exams. My son has said his education started at uni as he actually had to do his own research. He feels cleverer as a result.'

<sweet suffering catfish>

noblegiraffe Tue 23-Apr-13 04:08:33

That's not evidence, that's a link to a website called 'The Daily Sheeple' hmm

MasterOfTheYoniverse Tue 23-Apr-13 04:12:55

Nicholas, you raise a lot of good questions about how people can be led to used as assets in an operation.

I thought for a second that Russia might be behind a bigger obscure scheme.They carried out quite a few brazen operations in the UK in broad daylight in the last few years……

I don't know, something doesn't add up. Am happy that people are raising questions but not sure there are easy answers.

On another point, I find the enemy combatant route shocking.
here
slipping into totalitarian methods with US citizens. In the open glare of the public that is….

Earlybird Tue 23-Apr-13 05:09:16

Forget the conspiracies.

Most every legal expert I've heard/read says the evidence against the two as the bombers seems 'overwhelming' due to video footage, still photos, evidence seized from their homes, and the admission of crime made to the car jacking victim. And then of course, there is the issue of the two brothers killing a policeman and wounding another in addition to the shoot out in which they threw bombs / grenades at the police.

In fact, the case is looking to be such a 'slam dunk' (to use an American phrase), there is speculation that the younger brother should hope and pray he is offered a deal by the prosecution (life in prison, most likely) in exchange for cooperating with the investigation (this will likely take the death penalty off the table). Many will argue that a plea deal should not be offered at all though, as this sort of heinous act would be one of the few times a death penalty sentence might be used.

mathanxiety Tue 23-Apr-13 06:11:59

Now Russia is involved? In league with the FBI perhaps? Against whom? Or maybe it's the IRA? Boston is a hotbed of Irishness after all...
Yes, very obscure indeed.

And 'totalitarian methods' because someone has not been read their rights? Rights that only came into existence in 1966 and have since then been modified quite substantially from their original incarnation - brief history of Miranda rights.

mathanxiety Tue 23-Apr-13 06:14:08

Wouldn't put anything past that Vladimir Putin (if that is his real name) -- did you know he was in the KGB?

NicholasTeakozy Tue 23-Apr-13 07:06:14

Noblegiraffe, seeing as you distrust non MSM, The New York Times reporting the same.

From the New York Times article: "the F.B.I. had been tracking Mr. Mohamud since 2009 and his planning unfolded under the scrutiny and even assistance of undercover agents, officials said."

From the same article: " His case resembles several others in which American residents, inspired by militant Web sites, have tried to carry out attacks in the name of the militant Islamic movement only to be captured in a sting operation.

In a similar case in September 2009, a 19-year-old Jordanian was arrested after placing a fake bomb at a 60-story Dallas skyscraper. The same month, a 29-year-old Muslim convert was charged with placing a bomb at the federal building in Springfield, Ill. And in October, a 34-year-old naturalized American citizen born in Pakistan was arrested and charged with plotting to bomb the Washington subway after meeting with undercover agents and discussing his plans and surveillance activities."

noddyholder Tue 23-Apr-13 07:17:51

The evidence is not overwhelming at all.

noblegiraffe Tue 23-Apr-13 09:45:00

Teakozy, I am loving your link of secret 'mercenaries' all wearing an obvious uniform of beige trousers and a black jacket.

More photos here
imgur.com/a/YrTOK

Because they are the National Guard Civil Support team, not a private army. Not surprising to see them at a major event like a marathon.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 09:51:12

Earlybird - maybe the evidence will turn out to be overwhelming once openly presented. But what we have been shown so far does not overwhelm me so far with its inherent logic - somewhat the reverse.

Interestingly, the Mail today reports - in terms of mock 'disgust' that the younger brother now has a large support group in favour of his innocence. They are also openly reporting many of the allegations made here that things have been 'fixed' in some way. In typical Daily Mail style they are reported these things as 'dreadful' but in that way they have where they say that but you get the feeling they are saying that to prompt their readers to disagree? (eg same tone they used when reporting about Samantha Brick - supposedly in agreement with her views but actually trying to get the audience to hate her).

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2313303/Dzhokhar-Tsarnaev-innocent-Facebook-page-attracts-11-000-fans-worldwide.html

So I'm totally lost - no idea why the Mail is reporting this stuff or why they seem to be wanting to open eyes to holes in the official story. Or is the official story just too obviously hole-y that there is no way of presenting it that doesn't look weird??

Ponders Tue 23-Apr-13 09:52:36

National Guard CST team

pic from Guardian (included in the infowars piece)

or were there 2 sets of men in black coats & beige pants? that must have been confusing for them (& the FBI)

noddyholder Tue 23-Apr-13 09:57:46

It is making the mainstream press because the doubts set in early with this Usually people with doubts are the minority and it takes time for their small sites and groups to hit the press but this for whatever reason was doubted by large numbers from the start. Will be interesting to see how long the FBI had been watching them and what their connections are. It is all very odd especially them 'confessing' to the anonymous car driver and then letting him go with that information when apparently they were pretty trigger happy. And it is very convenient that they let him go because he wasn't american perfect propaganda.

Ponders Tue 23-Apr-13 10:05:26
noddyholder Tue 23-Apr-13 10:06:50

I am open minded about this in a way I haven't been about other conspiracies. Not sure why tbh

Ponders Tue 23-Apr-13 10:09:05

there are certainly lots of bits of information that don't seem to quite add up/fit together, noddy

noblegiraffe Tue 23-Apr-13 10:13:04

Those that think the guy in the wheelchair was a double amputee actor, here's a photo of him before the race (same jumper)
www.gofundme.com/BucksforBauman

Looking nothing like an amputee and nothing like the war veteran he is supposed to be in the 'it was staged' conspiracy.

Poor, poor man and his poor family.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 10:33:49

noblegiraffe - I agree the fake leg story is about as weird as they come- but easy to dispel - any normal guy will have countless pics of him with legs! taken recently.

noddyholder - agree. I'm no tin hat wearer generally but this particular story has seemed not 'right' to me somehow. In my case, I think it was the universally gushing descriptions of the younger brother by all who knew him that rang alarm bells for me. I can't think of any other terrorists/gunmen who haven't later been described (even if in retrospect) by those who knew them as in some way unhinged, unbalalanced, not quite right. This guy - no-one has anything but nice stuff to say.

So what's the motive? No-one goes to a huge effort to kill loads of people they've never met without a reason.

Ponders Tue 23-Apr-13 10:43:56

Tamerlan sounds to have become increasingly obsessive about Islam in the last few months (from boston.com). There's quite a lot about what happened before Tamerlan was killed here too.

EldritchCleavage Tue 23-Apr-13 10:54:13

Why aren't the assertions and interpretations on the non-MSM websites subjected to the same sceptical analysis as the 'official' version of events?

Ponders Tue 23-Apr-13 10:54:14

a lot of background stuff from the NY Times last week

Dzhokhar was failing at university. Maybe he was angry because he was failing. Maybe he was failing because he was being distracted by Tamerlan. Tamerlan seemed be angry about a lot of things, some to do with America, some not.

I wonder how much information they'll be able to get from Dzhokhar though, with the degree of head injury & general trauma.

MasterOfTheYoniverse Tue 23-Apr-13 11:26:46

Maybe this is "just" a case of "beslan meets columbine" as ventured by a very good op ed in the NY times last week?
A grudge, a couple of forlorn youths and an enablist environment?
Its still the most likely explanation and seems in line with the stance chosen to prosecute the surviving perpetrator.

MasterOfTheYoniverse Tue 23-Apr-13 11:28:33

The fact that islam is the radicalising element is only accessory iykwim?

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 13:10:34

Ponders - interesting links. Still not sure that failing your classes = mass murderer, but time will hopefully tell as more details emerge...

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 13:15:39

Eldritch - I'd argue that anyone who takes either the official OR the unofficial media as gospel needs their heads seeing to. The truth may reside in one or the other or a mixture of both...or neither.

Being open-minded until someone has been proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt seems fair. The horrific nature of what the individual is accused of should not preclude anyone from viewing the evidence dispassionately. The guy has only just been charged so far - some on here seem to talk as if he has been proven guilty. Maybe he will be - but we are not at that stage yet.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 13:17:38

And history has too many examples of individuals who were guilty in trial by media - only to be found completely innocent. So I'll wait.

EldritchCleavage Tue 23-Apr-13 13:25:54

There seems to be a tendency in discussions like this to equate the 'media' versions of the story with the official versions, and certainly when mainstream media gets things wrong, that's often argued to be evidence that the 'official' version is similarly wrong, and/or that official misinformation is the source of the media inaccuracy or deception.

But none of that is necessarily the case. We can't know the totality of what the 'official' case is until a prosecutor stands up in federal court and lays it out for the judge. Unless any of you have a hotline to Eric Holder?

In the Internet era there are lots of competing versions of events like this being put out by people with wildly varying amounts of information and credibility. Which ones any given person opts for has a lot less to do with critical analysis that most of us are prepared to admit, and a lot more to do with political/emotional/philosophical standpoints that frequently go unacknowledged or examined.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 13:55:19

That's true,Eldritch.I admit it's my 'gut feeling' that something is not quite right here that I'm going on as the basis for questioning the official version. And it's true that the official version does not nec = the media version. However, that is all we have to go on so far. Moreover,it is worth noting that the official version hasn't always been right either in other cases - and clearly,there was a lot of pressure to find and convict someone in this case because of the nature of the crime. And the case was built up very speedily - one would think before the authorities had really had a chance to view all the relevant evidence. But we'll see...

Ponders Tue 23-Apr-13 13:55:27

inf about the interrogation - from the DM, sorry, but I notice that in the cctv image he is now climbing into the boat again!

& he is now being questioned with the right to silence - CNN link - I know he was reportedly questioned without that right before the weekend, but I can't imagine they got much from him then

he says it was just the 2 of them, acting alone; but he would say that, wouldn't he...

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 13:59:16

And yes, you're right that some people have a natural tendency to distrust authority and all 'official versions'. However, the converse is also true. It is notable that some on here seem to almost take any suggestion that there could be other sides to the story as a personal affront or an attack on the US, etc. Which is no more logical.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 14:00:15

Previous comment @ Eldridge.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 14:01:38

@ Ponders - yes,this example teaches you why you should never ever regard the Mail as a source for facts! Clearly they are making it up as they go along... grin

mumat39 Tue 23-Apr-13 14:56:16

Breadandbutterfly, that's exactly how I feel!

noddyholder Tue 23-Apr-13 15:01:14

interesting C4 News website

Ponders Tue 23-Apr-13 15:12:14

'Several visits are talked about and even something of a rapport building up between agents and this young man whom they recognised – as did many others – as being personable, intelligent and with clear leadership qualities.'

but the source of this information is the mad mother, isn't it?

noddyholder Tue 23-Apr-13 15:19:03

Mad?

noddyholder Tue 23-Apr-13 15:20:45

If the FBI was watching them that closely etc it is odd that they didn't catch them quicker and they did take in a young saudi man who was later released Its getting more suspicious imho

Ponders Tue 23-Apr-13 15:35:41

well, ok, not mad, but seriously deluded imo.

I think she's a bit economical with the truth - while also running off at the mouth

noddyholder Tue 23-Apr-13 15:37:03

Maybe but I am sure if she spoke to them she would know.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 15:37:49

I suppose I fear 1. that an innocent young man may be put to death for a crime he didn't commit and 2. that the whole situation may reflect some disturbing undercurrents in global geopolitics. I don't get the whole Russia-Chechen thing in relation to the US but it's not a new direction I like the sound of.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 15:39:14

The Chechen situation is bad enough in its normal location without transplanting it.

EldritchCleavage Tue 23-Apr-13 15:39:15

We don't really know how closely the FBI was watching. There may not have been any signs giving rise to a concern the brother would mount an attack on the US, perhaps until they actually did it it was much more plausible that they would plot with others to attack Russia over Chechnya or get involved in some other conflict in the Caucasus.

And the FBI must watch thousands of people. You only have to be unlucky with surveillance briefly for there to be a tragedy.

EldritchCleavage Tue 23-Apr-13 15:39:38

brother*s*, sorry.

Ponders Tue 23-Apr-13 15:42:03

she first said the FBI had been practically part of the family for 3 years, then 5.

also, can you believe he stopped to ring her in the middle of the shootout???

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 15:49:50

Eldridge, out of interest, I'm curious why you are so convinced that the official version is 100% correct? What is your political/philosophical (or emotional) background that makes you so definite on this?

noblegiraffe Tue 23-Apr-13 16:06:30

Daily mail has a series of photos of the shoot out with the police, where the elder brother was killed, and apparent bomb marks on the street.

EldritchCleavage Tue 23-Apr-13 16:09:38

Eldridge, out of interest, I'm curious why you are so convinced that the official version is 100% correct? What is your political/philosophical (or emotional) background that makes you so definite on this?

Well where the hecky peck have I said the 'official' version (not that there even is a settled official version yet) is 100% correct, for heaven's sake?

LtEveDallas Tue 23-Apr-13 16:28:47

Still not sure that failing your classes = mass murderer

Bread, people kill for a lot, lot less. In the top 10 motives for murder are jealousy, passion, revenge and obsession. I remember a case of a man who killed his girlfriend because she wouldn't give him her chopsticks! Or what about the bastard that stabbed a young girl in his anger at losing his internet connection?

Lots of angry young men kill for no reason, or simply to become infamous. Young men are indoctorinated into thinking a certain way, into hating a common enemy. I think it is likely that the older brother did this to the younger brother - and this was the result.

Earlybird Tue 23-Apr-13 17:08:53

Agree with LtEveDallas. The mother said that her younger son was a 'very bright boy who was going to medical school' (obviously impossible at 19 years old). But if you are 'failing' at the life you hoped to have (and that your parents wanted for you), some cannot cope with the disappointment and stress. I wonder if that played a role in his involvement.

Several of the recent mass shootings in America have been committed by young men who either couldn't cope with society (Newtown) or who struggled to find their way (Colorado movie theatre shooting committed by a very bright student who was struggling with/ failing at difficult classes at University).

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 19:24:21

It's possible. But this is not akin to stabbing someone on the spur of the moment - this must have taken months of planning - long enough for anyone but the most determined sociopath to have thought 'hang on a minute'... And this guy comes across as so nice that according to the mail (and elsewhere) loads of his friends are prepared to take the stand for him and swear that they don't think he did it. As I said, every other case you named eg Newtown or Colorado,everyone who knew the perpetrators sad they were mad as **. It ought to be obvious that at the very least the individual is a bit disturbed if downright weird, surely?

After all, plenty of kids fail at school or college but 99.99999% of them don't resort to mass murder. Even if they're Muslim. Do I really need to say that??

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 19:26:07

Eldridge - sorry if I misunderstood you. You seemed to be taking potshots at those who dared to question the official version, hence my assumption...

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 19:31:35

Eurgh - just reread my metaphor/cliche. Inappropriate. blush

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 19:46:20

noblegiraffe - just looked at the pictures of the shooutout you mentioned. The average Daily Mail reader is clearly not very impressed or convinced they show anything at all, as per the comments. A couple of figures that are probably people but could be anything really and some very distant lights and a slight smudge on the ground - not terribly conclusive... Also, the car still there and even the backpacks left conveniently on the ground several hours later once it's light so they can be photographed clearly. Obviously, no police in Boston who might, just might, have thought it was important enough to save the bags or car or its contents as evidence...

And a suspect who could manage to get past massed ranks of police on his own without being followed and dump the car and then walk, bleeding heavily, to hide...

If you put it in a movie you'd say it was too far-fetched.

claig Tue 23-Apr-13 19:50:14

'The average Daily Mail reader'

The Daily Mail reader is not average in any way!
As you were.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 19:51:30

No claig, you're right - they include both of us for starters. smile

claig Tue 23-Apr-13 19:54:54

Exactly smile
There are conspiracy theories about the Colorado shooting and Newtown.
Don't know if there is anything to them.

LtEveDallas Tue 23-Apr-13 20:12:30

this is not akin to stabbing someone on the spur of the moment - this must have taken months of planning

Actually it is a piece of piss to make a bomb. I was shown how in an afternoon lesson and made one the following morning! (Disclaimer, NOT a terrorist)

I don't think there was that much planning at all - making bombs, chucking them in a backpack and casually leaving backpack to explode. If they had timed it better they would have had far more casualties - and higher 'value' ones - so for me it's the lack of planning and small number of casualties that proves it was them on their own rather than a meticulously coordinated and successful attack. To be honest, they made a hash of this.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 20:16:48

That depends (a) if they actualy did it and (b) if they did, if mass murder was their goal.

Lots of assumptions in your posts. They may be true. But unproven as yet.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 20:17:51

Missed you claig. smile Good to see your unique sanity.

claig Tue 23-Apr-13 20:22:49

Missed you too breadandbutterfly. The Coalition has got off lightly since you here last. smile

EldritchCleavage Tue 23-Apr-13 20:32:48

I don't think I've 'taken potshots' at anyone, actually.

LtEveDallas Tue 23-Apr-13 20:35:25

No more assumptions in my posts that yours bread. We are coming at it from different viewpoints is all.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 20:56:39

I'd love to agree to be polite, but I can't. You're assuming he's guilty. I'm assuming we can't know that yet. But my assumption is fact unless you've spoken to the man himself and he confessed or you personally witnessed him place the bag down and it then blow up.

As that seems unlikely, I'll stick with my assumptions for now.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 20:59:52

Eldritch - agreed - veeery unfortunate turn of phrase on my part. You gave me the impression of being less than even-handed. But maybe that impresion is unfair.

EldritchCleavage Tue 23-Apr-13 21:25:26

Thanks.
It's not the conclusions people come to so much as the reasoning that I often find odd.
We know from experience that we get told things at e.g. press conferences that turn out to be wrong (famous example re drone attack in Afghanistan, the US Army response was shown to be completely wrong in circs not really explicable except on the basis of 'We'll just say...oh shit, they've worked out that can't be true') so questioning the official version is A Good Thing, in my book.

But on a rational basis. And equally, if people want to shoot down some of the alternative theories, it has to be properly reasoned, not just dismissed. I looked at some of the links posted on this thread and thought, 'Well you're asking me to take a lot of things that support your theory on trust, why should I?' I don't see why if I refuse blindly to trust the FBI I should suddenly blindly trust Internet People.

This is a cause dear to my heart because I do feel that No Platform in all its manifestations (very modish when I was at university) was never satisfactory and is not at all helpful in the internet era. You have to keep having, and winning the argument. Just like with Bell Curvers and Holocaust Deniers, if you think someone is a conspiracy theorist way off base, you have to demonstrate it by persuasive analysis. And ditto if you believe the official version is wrong.

All that said, a personal disclaimer: I have a relative who is a senior US govt official. The blanket dismissal of US govt as peopled by evil murderers does really really get to me. My rellie has made huge sacrifices in the cause of public service, and he's not alone.

LtEveDallas Tue 23-Apr-13 21:54:14

I'm glad we don't have to be polite then Bread. I think your posts make you sound as if you are determined to disbelieve the official story simply because it is the official story.

I haven't said once what I believe. But my 'gut feeling' is that the bad planning, the small number of victims, the simplicity of the bomb and the failure to 'get away' clean all point towards two losers doing this on their own.

My DH and I have had (minor) experience in this field and we were both saying the same thing at the very initial stages - the only thing we got wrong is that we were both leaning towards it being 'home grown' and a fight against Obama, rather than against America.

If it had been a 'false flag' operation, or a known terrorist organisation's operation it would have been a 'better' job. This is just too sloppy.

breadandbutterfly Tue 23-Apr-13 23:25:49

I don't really have any idea who did it - no grand conspiracies. I just feelslightly uncomfortable with the automatic assumption of guilt before trial. But maybe the brothers are guilty. I hope the trial will answer many of my questions and join the dots and that the remaining brother will get a fair trial.

Eldritch - like you I am influenced by family members at some subconscious level. My family survived Nazi Germany - from their experiences I have learnt not to blindly assume that govts always do the right thing or act fairly in the interests of all their citizens (and no, am not equating the US and Nazi Germany before anyone suggests that...). Just that I believe in making up my own mind before trusting anyone, govts or otherwise. So pretty similar to you, really.

edam Tue 23-Apr-13 23:28:07

Refs to the IRA on this thread have reminded me - wasn't Boston one of the main cities for IRA fundraising back in the day when the terrorists were blowing up British cities? Raising money for the boys back home and all that? Of course that doesn't in any way justify this latest horror, nor take away from the suffering of innocent victims. Just wonder whether anyone who was around back then and put their hand in their pocket for the IRA has realised, since 9/11 or with this fresh atrocity, quite what suffering their actions caused.

And musing on that makes me think about the US drone attacks in Pakistan. I've seen figures quoted that more than 100 children have been killed. Again, doesn't justify what happened in Boston, but why do we ignore their plight when we are quick to express our sympathy for the bereaved in Boston? Because it's further down the news agenda, partly, I guess, but surely there's something more to it...

Ponders Tue 23-Apr-13 23:43:55

yes, the drone thing definitely needs more Western attention, edam

there was a very effective thing on FB today linking it to the Boston neighbourhood where Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was hiding in the boat

mathanxiety Wed 24-Apr-13 00:24:37

LtEveDallas, I am nodding in agreement with everything you are saying here.

Edam, yes it was. And sadly, I think many of the same people would pass the cap again if they thought circumstances warranted it. The belief being that the targets the IRA was after were security forces (army and police) rather than civilians, and even if civilians were IRA targets the assumption was that they deserved to be targets. Bombings, where people were killed and injured randomly are harder to justify except in a broader political sense. Of course many people were able to do this in their heads.

However, in the wake of the Omagh bombing by the 'Real IRA' I think support for the armed struggle fell off considerably. That slaughter got a lot of coverage in US media.

mathanxiety Wed 24-Apr-13 00:35:41

NicholasTeakozy -- all that NY Times article suggests to me is that there are quite a few disaffected and radicalised Muslims in the US, living lives that are marginalised and estranged from the rest of society for various reasons, but that the FBI is onto them, keeps track of them, and has done an excellent job of profiling them; I think it shows that in the main the wannabe terrorists are not half as bright as their mothers think they are.

breadandbutterfly Wed 24-Apr-13 08:23:30

Not that good a job if this story is true, math...

noblegiraffe Wed 24-Apr-13 09:20:00

Better than the UK.

It seems odd that given there are real terrorists out there planning real attacks (as those in the UK that no one seems to have doubted were genuine show) to jump to the conclusion that any that succeeds must be a false flag government operation. Or to assume that when answers are not immediately forthcoming that conspiracy rather than uncertainty is the reason.
There seems to be an expectation that the public should be privy to all the information instantly and without hesitation. Apart from anything, the authorities need to be mindful not to prejudice a trial.

breadandbutterfly Wed 24-Apr-13 12:18:24

Oh come on - it's precisely the fact that the trial has already been obviously prejudiced that worries me. Every leak we have had has been to present the pair as guilty. It goes on day after day, drip-feeding more and more... If the US has a jury system for this sort of crime, how can they find any jury anywhere who has not already read all this and made up their mind?

If they were saying nothing once they'd caught him and there was no ned to report further, then fine. But they're not. There are numerous daily articles and much of it eg today's articles on what the accused is supposed to have confessed to, are highly prejudicial.

breadandbutterfly Wed 24-Apr-13 12:20:07

If you compare that to the terrorism cases we've had here, no-one here had even heard of most of those cases at all unttil they came to court, so the accused could and did get a fair trial. Any details that came out came out during/after the trial as should always be the case.

I have no idea how this cannot be obvious to everyone.

noblegiraffe Wed 24-Apr-13 12:21:53

Blimey, they really can't win can they? Don't release evidence that the pair are guilty and it's a government set-up framing an innocent boy. Do release evidence and it's a bad thing to show the pair were justifiably shot by the police and stop the Internet outrage because it might prejudice the trial.

I don't think the FBI were behind the release of those private photos to the Daily Mail, by the way. I doubt they have that much control over private mobile phones.

breadandbutterfly Wed 24-Apr-13 12:24:40

And there are alternatives to conspiracy theories. There is also the 'don't know' theory. The opposite of the accused being guilty is not that a conspiracy is responsible. It's that we don't actually know who is responsible.

There are lots of unsolved crimes out there but we don't describe them all as 'conspiracies'. That just patronises everyone who thinks that the case may be less straightforward than has been presented by tainting them as 'nutters'.

EldritchCleavage Wed 24-Apr-13 12:26:45

The US does not have the same contempt of court laws, so there is no prior restraint on what can be published about an accused. The safeguard for the accused is to have lavish opportunities (that UK defendants would not get) to question potential jurors about prejudice and challenge them. That is why it can take weeks to empanel a jury. Very different from here, but not necessarily unfair.

breadandbutterfly Wed 24-Apr-13 12:27:36

noblegiraffe - I can imagine a situation in the UK where it would be legal to publish the amount of info about the supposed accused before trial. I don't know what laws the US has relating to contempt of court but leaks such those over the last couple of daysrelating to things the accused has supposedly confessed to can - if true - only come from the FBI - I'm assuming he's not confessing to every nurse in the hospital...

How can these leaks not prejudice the trial?

breadandbutterfly Wed 24-Apr-13 12:28:05

Sorry - should read I canNOT imagine a situation in the UK...

breadandbutterfly Wed 24-Apr-13 12:28:53

Crossed posts - thanks Eldritch. I prefer the UK system for sure.

EldritchCleavage Wed 24-Apr-13 13:02:47

And don't forget, the accused can't be tried unless a grand jury decides that there is sufficient evidence to try him on, which is another procedural safeguard. Grand jury proceedings are secret so the eventual trial is not prejudiced by the process or findings.

breadandbutterfly Wed 24-Apr-13 15:17:59

Still prefer the UK version...

mathanxiety Thu 25-Apr-13 00:51:36

'Not that good a job if this story is true, math...'

Clearly someone's head will roll for this. There have already been questions asked in Congress and there will be the mother and father of an inquiry. The matter of the warning from Russia is one many on Capitol Hill are interested in. (Not that long ago there was enough support for anti Russia grandstanding that the Magnitsky Act was tacked onto the Bill admitting Russia to the WTO)

breadandbutterfly Thu 25-Apr-13 21:08:09

Oh look, now officials say that the suspect dodn't actually have a gun at all on the boat. So not only did he not shhot himself conveniently in the throat, he didn't shhot at the police either. So why were they shooting at an unarmed man??

And people wonder why they are conspiracy theories.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2314448/Now-officials-claim-Boston-bombing-suspect-NOT-armed-boat-showdown--despite-police-account-firefight-shooting-himself.html

noblegiraffe Thu 25-Apr-13 21:51:23

I wonder what the people banging on about the pair's innocence on Facebook make of the revelation that the elder brother was on a terrorism database.

NicholasTeakozy Thu 25-Apr-13 22:18:56

The Saudi Arabian chap initially named as a suspect was on a list of people having 'terrorist connections'. Didn't stop him getting into the White House. Or being visited in hospital by Mrs O'Bama.

NicholasTeakozy Thu 25-Apr-13 22:22:21

Abdul Rahman Alharbi was on the same list Noble. But he got spirited out of the country. Just like Bin Liners family after the 2001 attacks in New York.

breadandbutterfly Thu 25-Apr-13 22:30:06

noblegiraffe - you appear to be implying that it is ok to shoot unarmed suspects if they have a family member on a terrorism database.

In my world, it is not OK to shoot unarmed suspects - the only reason for shooting someone several times is if they are posing a real threat and risking others' lives. If they're not, you just sit and wait. Not as if he was going to disappear in a puff of smoke. He's not magic. Sooner or later, he'd get bored or hungry etc. Or get him out with some sort of gas to send him off to sleep etc.

Why was it necessary to not only shoot the guy but then lie that he had shot himself? How can you justify this?

Ponders Thu 25-Apr-13 22:32:50

'It has also emerged that the boat was within the search perimeter laid down by local police, contrary to the earlier assertions of senior officers'

'Boston police commissioner Ed Davis said the circumstances of the capture of Tsarnaev would be reviewed. "We will have to see what prompted the volley of shots before the cease-fire was ordered by a superintendent of the Boston police," he said'

tbf, they must all have been on a knife-edge - the littlest sound/movement would have set them off firing. So thank God we do not have armed police as a regular thing in this country...

breadandbutterfly Thu 25-Apr-13 22:32:52

My point being that even if he is GUILTY - which we hve no proof of yet - that is no excuse for US police to start shooting him. That is not how justice is supposed to work in civilised countries - we do not shoot first and ask questions later. We do it the other way round.

drjohnsonscat Thu 25-Apr-13 22:35:28

edam I thought of Noraid too. And the IRA never ever said it only targeted the army etc but maybe no one ever told the Americans about the Harrods bomb, the Warrington bomb, the Canary Wharf bomb and all the other victims of this particular brand of terrorism that the US seemed to find so charming.

The sanctimonious parading after the final Boston bomber was caught was absolutely nauseating.

Ponders Thu 25-Apr-13 22:36:05

we do not generally shoot at all, breadandbutterfly hmm armed police are only brought in here when it's confirmed that there is a gun in the equation (like with Raoul Moat)

it is different in the US & I can't help feeling that violent criminals reap what they sow there

breadandbutterfly Thu 25-Apr-13 22:56:00

ponders - I'm sure we shoot when we are 100% sure that the criminalis armed and we are shooting in se;lf-defence. Some criminals here (fewer than the US obviously) do have guns.

How do 'violent criminals reap what they sow there?'

Ponders Thu 25-Apr-13 23:01:14

'violent criminals reap what they sow there' because they know that all the police are armed

here they aren't - eg I don't imagine Dale Cregan would have got as far as the equivalent of a Crown Court trial in the US

noblegiraffe Thu 25-Apr-13 23:02:21

Eh, butterfly, what did I say that even remotely hinted anything about shooting people?
I was talking about the facebook group that was mentioned earlier protesting their innocence, that the police had the wrong guys, they were nice etc. The revelation that Tamerlan was known to the FBI, the Russians had expressed concerns etc must have taken the wind out of their sails?

breadandbutterfly Fri 26-Apr-13 09:17:37

No, not really - as you yourself pointed out earlier, the FBI has lots of people on their books as suspected terrorists - not all of them actually are terrorists in practice, clearly, or we would be inundated with terrorist attacks non-stop. I have yet to see any evidence that implies the younger brother was known to be a terrorist - and he is the one due to go on trial.

Personally, I find the drip-feed of incriminating 'evidence' that is then later rescinded and turns out all to have been a lie eg they robbed a 7-11 at gunpoint - oh no they didn't; the younger brother was armed and shooting at police - oh no he wasn't etc - gives me diminishing confidence that any other part of the story holds water either.

So far, the only 'evidence' we have been presented with that matters, in relating to the suspect, is that he was videoed putting down the bomb and it then blew up - if this is truly the case, then clearly he is guilty. But so far, we have only assertions by anonymous sources that this video evidence actually exists. If it is as reliable as all the other 'evidence' of guilt so far, ie as illusory as the guns the younger brother was supposed to have and be using, then I am not very convinced, no.

Even if it can be proven that his older brother was guilty - which is far from proven (being a nasty piece of work may be coincidental rather than causation), no-one should be judged on the sins of their brother.

LtEveDallas Fri 26-Apr-13 09:42:52

I'd be even more careful about what you read quoting the AP than I would the DM.

The AP was hacked on Wednesday and put out a number of sensational news stories, including one where a "bomb had gone off in the White House and the President was injured". Their Twitter feed was taken over for about 2 hours, and lots of the stories tweeted sounded plausible, but ultimately weren't.

Anonymous have said they are currently trying to track back the hackers, but I'm surprised that the DM didn't know about it and issue some caution in their own stories.

EldritchCleavage Fri 26-Apr-13 10:16:43

the drip-feed of incriminating 'evidence' that is then later rescinded and turns out all to have been a lie

So you are firmly excluding the possibility of mistake or incompetence? Why?

breadandbutterfly Fri 26-Apr-13 10:32:25

No, I'm not 'firmly excluding the possibility of mistake or incompetence' - on the contrary, it is because I have seen both mistakes and incompetence shown so far that I strongly suspect there may be further examples of mistake or incompetence to come.

As I stated, the pattern so far gives me little confidence that the main evidence against the accused is watertight either. The FBI announced the conclusion that the pair were guilty very early on - given the huge amount of evidence to be gone through, I'd have thought that firm conclusion seemed somewhat premature. It is entirely to be expected that a careful and detailed sifting of the evidence later would reveal new facts or flaws in the original conclusion. No problem with arresting the suspect - in case. But I do have problems with putting out a story that is prejudicial to the suspect and not yet carefully checked.

breadandbutterfly Fri 26-Apr-13 10:34:48

Lt Eve - oh come on - so every single story you don't like is put there by hackers...

And you accuse others of conspiracy theories!!! hmm

breadandbutterfly Fri 26-Apr-13 10:40:19

And it's Friday now - The bomb in the White House story was disproved within minutes.If these stories re those accused of the Boston bombs were false, they'd have been rescinded long before now. It doesn't take 2 days to announce that these stories were planted by hackers.

Talk about clutching at straws to hold on to anything - anything! - that backs up your pet theory of guilt.

EldritchCleavage Fri 26-Apr-13 10:47:37

OK, thanks. I asked because you used the word 'lie', which means a deliberate untruth.

LtEveDallas Fri 26-Apr-13 11:00:39

Lt Eve - oh come on - so every single story you don't like is put there by hackers

OK, so are you very fucking rudely mixing me up with someone else? I haven't mentioned hackers before my post this morning.

And my post wasn't in relation to anything you had previously posted, except the fact that you posted yet another Daily Hate link and I know that the Daily Hate gets most of their USA stories from AP.

I don't give a shiney shit about two sibling losers looking to cause havoc to bring excitement into their tiny mind-numbing little lives and I have even less interest in tin-foil losers.

I find the Anonymous posts and tweets far more interesting, and saw one this morning where they are trying to backtrack the AP hackers - most likely for their own amusement and to 'get their own back'. I'm enjoying the play.

EldritchCleavage Fri 26-Apr-13 12:16:24

breadandbutterfly has a propensity for inaccurate precis. It is irritating.

breadandbutterfly Fri 26-Apr-13 17:03:44

Gosh, this is intriguigingly personal. I was very fucking accurately referring to your post this morning, Lt Eve, though for reasons you have not yet revealed you seem to find any suggestion that the accused might actually be innocent, deeply distressing. I don't give a shit about two losers etc etc either, but do care a lot for the principle of 'assumed innocent until proven guilty' - which is clearly something else you don't give a shiney (sic) shit about.

Eldritch - such as...?

I find your precis of me somewhat innacurate, and indeed, irritating.

breadandbutterfly Fri 26-Apr-13 17:10:43

As you yourself correctly pointed out above, Eldridge, people have a tendency to pre-judge issues based on their existing beliefs - I find it fascinating how many on this thread are determined that the accused MUST be guilty, although the trial has not yet taken place and the evidence not yet all been collected let alone presented. I wonder what drove Lt Eve to this conclusion...

I find this as odd as those who in the absence of definitive proof are convinced of a conspiracy.

Two different types of judgey-pants, to use MN lingo. Neither very attractive.

breadandbutterfly Fri 26-Apr-13 17:12:36

FWIW, as we're getting personal, Eldritch - you come across as supercilious and up your own arse. But at least more intelligent and less lacking in basic logic than Lt Eve.

Well, that's me done.

LtEveDallas Fri 26-Apr-13 17:18:22

Gosh, this is intriguigingly personal. I was very fucking accurately referring to your post this morning, Lt Eve

How does ONE post about hackers raiding AP become every single story you don't like ? Are you hard of counting?

though for reasons you have not yet revealed you seem to find any suggestion that the accused might actually be innocent, deeply distressing

ALL your suggestions intimate that they are innocent. I don't agree, and have explained why. I'm not 'distressed'. Why on earth would I be? I just think you are wrong. I am content in my belief that this atrocity was committed by two losers with an axe to grind. If if turns out that it wasn't, then I'll hold my hands up and say "OK, I was wrong". It's not hard.

People are allowed to disagree. The difference between you and I is that I don't feel the need to be fucking rude, sarcastic or passive aggressive about it.

mathanxiety Sat 27-Apr-13 02:01:16

Breadandbutterfly, the Tsarnaev pair had already shot at and tried to throw bombs at police and there was every reason to believe the surviving brother was armed and had nothing to lose by resisting arrest. A gunfight occurred in the backyard involving Boston PD and the suspect until the FBI established a perimeter and took the suspect captive.

The police are not always wrong in the US despite the fact that they are
(1) armed, and
(2) American

And yes, the AP site was hacked. Stock markets had a temporary blip until the hacking was revealed.

pastoralacademia Sat 27-Apr-13 10:32:29

Breadandbutterfly I agree totally with what you are saying. It is sad that people in ''Civilised countries’’ believe that the police have the right to be judge and jury!!!!!
Be patient it very frustrating to debate with ignorance ......

pastoralacademia Sat 27-Apr-13 10:39:28

it's

noblegiraffe Sat 27-Apr-13 11:07:33

Police don't have the right to be judge and jury but if there is what they believe to be a dangerous criminal on the streets who poses a threat to everyone around him, then what the bloody hell are they supposed to do without people getting their knickers in a twist?

pastoralacademia Sat 27-Apr-13 17:40:48

I guess if there is a wounded hamster hiding in a boat we should send all the wild cats to execute catch him!!!!
OMG Ignorance teaches......!!!!

pastoralacademia Sat 27-Apr-13 18:09:29

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat with experience" I have always loved this quote from Mark Twain. What a wise man he was!

noblegiraffe Sat 27-Apr-13 18:29:34

Have you been drinking? confused

mathanxiety Sat 27-Apr-13 18:37:17

Police in the US do in fact have the right to be judge, jury and executioner. All instances of police shooting are reviewed. Police go through extensive training and are not trigger happy gun-toting cowboys. Incidents that involve police firing their weapons are few and far between among all the policing interactions that they are involved in annually.

I don't know how you have got your hands on information that doesn't seem to be widely known to the effect that the suspect was as harmless as a wounded hamster, but if you have a source to back up your certainty, and if that information was available to the police in Boston at the time the suspect was found in the boat then I will find a hat and eat it.

Ponders Sun 28-Apr-13 11:26:54

lots of background stuff about Tamerlan from NY Times yesterday

The wording of the Russians' warning the FBI/CIA about him in 2011 is really intriguing - I suppose they had been monitoring the communications of radical Islamists there & picked him up from that?

'In 2011, the Russian security service cautioned the F.B.I., and later the C.I.A., that “since 2010” Mr. Tsarnaev had “changed drastically,” becoming “a follower of radical Islam.” The Russians said he was planning a trip to his homeland to connect with underground militant groups. An F.B.I. investigation turned up no ties to extremists, the bureau has said.'

Ponders Mon 29-Apr-13 10:21:08

more Russian information from NY Times

'That warning was based on telephone conversations intercepted by Russian intelligence, including one between Mr. Tsarnaev and his mother, in which they discussed jihad, Russian authorities have told the F.B.I.'

No wonder she's so keen to deny everything hmm

Russian intelligence seem to be much hotter than American

mathanxiety Tue 30-Apr-13 02:26:31

<Am I the only one who remembers a statement from Russian president before the Iraq war to the effect that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?>

Ponders Tue 30-Apr-13 10:26:55

very possibly, math. I don't!

I suppose the Russians do have the advantage of decades of watching everybody & trusting nobody

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