Scotsman Newspaper puts swastika on the saltire.

(63 Posts)

Can't bring myself to link to the paper, there is the image of the Saltire in their paper, but with a swastika instead of a cross.

So irrespective of how you will vote, do you think they are wrong to use nazi imagery to attack pro-independence voters?

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 07-Apr-13 12:31:09

And Klan Alba?
WTF?

I do think its wrong. To imply that pro independence supporters are in any way similar to hitler and his ideals is bullying and down right wrong.

I think Klan Alba is a klu klux klan reference too - but I am inferring that.

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 07-Apr-13 12:39:20

What else could it be Taps?

trixymalixy Sun 07-Apr-13 12:41:05

FFS. I'm going to vote no to independence, but think this is totally wrong and quite offensive.

Well at least we are not alone in thinking it is wrong here but where is the balanced media debate that we all want? Is there a paper out there that is willing to give an opposing view? Is the media just for unionists? (Happy to be proved wrong).

Annunziata Sun 07-Apr-13 12:44:05

I will vote no but that is horrible.

FannyFifer Sun 07-Apr-13 12:45:41

I am disgusted that my flag has been defaced in this manner, every Scottish person regardless of how they intend to vote should be horrified by this.

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 07-Apr-13 12:52:21

I'd be interested to hear any comments from Alex Salmond and the SNP on this.
I hope this is brought up in the Scottish parliament.

I would love to here from all the parties, even the Tories. It is just unjustifiable to me - I can't think of one reason why it would be okay to link the yes vote with Nazism?

Or even on a basic level outwith the voting debate - why would it ever be okay for The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday to put a swastika on the saltire and put it in their newspaper?

SundaeGirl Sun 07-Apr-13 13:10:17

Wow, that's interesting. The Scotsman is nearly on it's last legs - this kind of stunt is exactly what it needs to get people reading/talking about it again.

Sorry, I realise that's not what you are posting about, OP. I'm not shocked tbh because it's just press drama. No one should actually be offended. I'm Scottish btw.

SantanaLopez Sun 07-Apr-13 13:12:37

Didn't the Herald pull a similar stunt a while ago? I remember that photo quite clearly.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sun 07-Apr-13 13:20:44

I saw this too and couldn't believe it!

It was just such a shocking, and inaccurate image.

So " press drama" makes it okay Sundae, do you also agree with the Daily Fails use of the Philpotts to hurt all people on benefits?

I agree with you on the fact that the Scotsman might see it as getting publicity at any cost but sometimes negative publicity sticks - I just hope it sticks to them like shit.

We need open, honest debate and this is a very clear example of the Bitter Together's campaign and negative attitude to the debate through a powerful media - whatever happens to The Scotsman they are one of our biggest newspapers - and although I have not bought one of their papers for a long time because they do not represent my views, I still think they need to apologise for this - it is insulting on so many levels. We have press complaints commission for a reason, and thinking it is okay to print trash needs to be called wrong. Or does anything go?

Santana can you find the Herald article? I did a quick google but couldn't find anything.

SantanaLopez Sun 07-Apr-13 13:50:07

I can't. I am sure I remember something very similar though.

I disagree with 'press drama'. There is drama and there is the clear insinuation that the Yes campaign/SNP are fascists, which is insulting to them and those who suffered from fascism no matter which way you will vote.

Bitter Together grin brilliant!

SantanaLopez Sun 07-Apr-13 13:52:10

Ah, DH has just told me the photo is from the front of Devine's book. I don't know why I connected it with the Herald confused

SantanaLopez Sun 07-Apr-13 13:52:50

[[http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scottish-Nation-1700-2000-Tom-Devine/dp/0140230041/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1365339134&sr=1-5&keywords=tom+devine Here] is the original.

SantanaLopez Sun 07-Apr-13 13:53:05

Shit. Here

SundaeGirl Sun 07-Apr-13 14:22:03

I just think I have thicker skin, that's all. Dramatic imagery is used on all sides of the debate. I wouldn't use Nazi imagery to depict nationalists, but then I wouldn't describe unionists as Bitter either.

MrsBungle Sun 07-Apr-13 14:24:53

shock I cannot believe they have done that to The Saltire angry

I think the bitter was a typo sundae hmm

SantanaLopez Sun 07-Apr-13 14:45:16

I've heard Bitter Together used quite often.

British nationalism.Good.?
Scottish nationalism.Racist fascism.?

You can't have it both ways, you can't claim all is fair in the no campaign then grumble about a fairly gentle comic typo.

But I apologise if it offended you Sundae. Not hard to apologise or withdraw a negative image, if the Saltire/swastika image is removed and they apologise then maybe we can move on and have an intelligent debate about Scotland's future dependence or independence.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 07-Apr-13 15:31:59

Most nationalist parties and supporters are seen as fascist.

SundaeGirl Sun 07-Apr-13 15:32:18

Eh? None of this offends me. That's my point. Other people get worked up but I see it as Politics (and Newspaper Selling).

Had someone been specified as a Nazi (or as bitter) then I'd be more inclined to be bothered about that.

Skybore Sun 07-Apr-13 19:08:32

It absolutely is not newspaper selling; it is the polar opposite of newspaper selling, ask any of the latest batch of staff facing redundancy at this failing newspaper.

Its not hard to work out why circulation is dropping at The Scotsman. though that will be no consolation to the people losing their jobs there.
Would you pay to have your intelligence insulted every day?

Their rabid anti SNP stance wipes out the market for SNP voters and supporters, and on the evidence of the 2011 Holyrood election there are a lot of them.

The constant twisting of facts and the daily distortions are possibly upsetting to the genuinely neutral readers who would like facts reported accurately and without bias. I would guess there are a lot of people who fall into that camp.

These two groups could possibly account for about 75% of the target Scottish readership. I would say basing your business plan on 25% of the target audience is not a clever strategy.

Today's swastika stunt honestly makes me feel like crying, yet they actually think it is achieving what exactly?

I have family now facing redundancy from this failing paper (circulation under 30000 now, less than half the 2007 figures), and the owners of Johnson Press and their lack of respect for readers intelligence has a large part to play in this.

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 07-Apr-13 19:22:34

It used to be a good paper too, about 20 years ago.
It's such a shame what's happened to it.

That is a sweeping statement BoneyBackJefferson.

And on holocaust remembrance day too.sad

Solopower1 Sun 07-Apr-13 20:09:22

It's ridiculous and offensive - and dreary and lacking in imagination, and puerile and insulting and tasteless and gimmicky! Nul points Scotsman.

But nationalism - British, English or Scottish - I just can't see any point in it at all. You don't choose where you're born. Why should you be prouder of one part of the world than another?

When Scotland play rugby or football, I support them - sport is a game, so you support your home team.

But someone explain nationalism to me. What is it that you are proud of? Is it anything you have actually had a hand in shaping or working for? Is it something your parents or grandparents did? Is it the scenery, democracy (one vote every 4 years), all the Scottish inventors and writers and scientists and doctors? Is it a shared culture or set of values - if so, what is it that you have actually done yourself to produce this culture or uphold these values? And how are you so sure they are better than anyone else's culture or values?

<Genuinely baffled>

Now, the French and the Egyptians, on the other hand, they had a revolution. They can be proud of that. But no matter how much you admire Keir Hardy or William Wallace, they are just individuals - they could have been born anywhere, and they would still have been outstanding.

All over the world brave people are fighting their governments. They can be proud of that. In other places people are working together for the common good. They can be proud of that. But we are just standing around whinging as our (UK) govt dumps on us from a huge height. I'm not proud of that. <not that I'm doing anything about it>

I agree LadyBeagle - it was a good paper before Andrew Neil did his worst, followed by Johnson Press.

It is sad that good journalists have lost and will lose their jobs, it is such a shame we don't have a decent national newspaper. I don't see that changing in the future, one way or another it would be good to have an open platform to debate the referendum. To me the media, including bbc Scotland is very much pro-union.

Solopower1 Sun 07-Apr-13 20:14:22

What about the Herald? Some excellent journalism there.

Taking part in the referendum is a way of doing something about the government dumping on us all from a great height. I believe with independence we would have a fairer (proportionally representative government) which we don't have just now. Their is no political will to change the voting system in the u.k - the referendum will decide if the people who live and vote in Scotland want to be in charge of their country - irrespective of nationality!

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 07-Apr-13 20:16:54

Isn't Nationalism just a sense of nation and a sense of who you are?
And I think most nationalities feel it be it the USA, France, Ireland or Scotland to give examples.
It doesn't have to be a negative thing, it's just a sense of identity.

Solopower1 Sun 07-Apr-13 20:28:39

Yes, TapselteeriO, I agree that taking part in a referendum about Scottish independence doesn't have to be about nationalism. But for many people it is. And it's more than that too - it's a chance to show the Westminster govt how much we hate them. But this coalition won't always be in power, and we'll get our chance to vote them out soon.

How do you define who you are, LadyB? Doesn't it depend to a large extent on who you are not? I think it's more constructive to see ourselves as citizens of the world and to look for what makes us human, not Scottish.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 07-Apr-13 20:28:47

Agree with Solo, the Herald has some damn fine journalism.

And I might be a tiny bit in love with Ian Bell and Iain MacWhirter

Solopower1 Sun 07-Apr-13 20:31:23

Ian Bell and Iain MacWhirter - none finer!

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 07-Apr-13 20:40:02

I used to love the Scotsman cryptic crossword, specially Peter Bee on a Friday.
It's such a long time since I bought it.

claig Sun 07-Apr-13 21:26:18

Can't find it on their website.
But it sounds like a desperate act that will backfire on the No campaign.
People aren't as stupid as these papers think.

Are there any Scottish papers that support the SNP? Are they nearly all Labour supporting papers?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sun 07-Apr-13 21:28:47

The Scottish Sun came out in support of the SNP at the last election, other than that I think they are either neutralish or unionist.

SantanaLopez Sun 07-Apr-13 21:29:18

It wasn't on their website this morning, either, claig.

Does one of the redtops not support the SNP?

(fuzzy baby brain)

SantanaLopez Sun 07-Apr-13 21:29:42

Ah, cross posts. I knew it was in the depths of my mind!

claig Sun 07-Apr-13 21:34:21

'The Scottish Sun'

Is that a Murdoch paper? I heard recently that Murdoch and Salmond may have slightly fallen out but I didn't pay much attention and may have got that wrong.

SantanaLopez Sun 07-Apr-13 21:36:04

The Sun is Murdoch owned but won't be supporting independence any more: here

ReturnOfEmeraldGreen Sun 07-Apr-13 21:39:05
claig Sun 07-Apr-13 21:41:17

Thanks, Santana

Solopower I don't agree, I am voting in favour of Scotland, not against Westminster. The U.K government, with its first past the post system will never be truly representative though. Still it isn't a major reason for voting yes.

Solopower1 Sun 07-Apr-13 22:06:58

What sort of voting system would an independent Scotland have?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 07-Apr-13 22:32:22

I'd like to see STV, but AV seems to work too.

JennyPiccolo Sun 07-Apr-13 22:40:19

The herald has been consistently good with coverage of the referendum issues, in my opinion.

I will take a look at the Herald but it always seems very much a Glasgow paper - I haven't read it in about 20 years so it may have changed a lot since then!

OldLadyKnowsNothing Mon 08-Apr-13 03:37:35

The Herald has really changed in the past 20 years. It is well worth reading.

JennyPiccolo Mon 08-Apr-13 08:28:22

It's glasgow based, but more generally Scottish I would say.

I had a look online last night, unexpectedly liked it, will buy in future. Really enjoyed the online comments on articles.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Mon 08-Apr-13 22:13:20

Pleased to have won a convert. grin

NiceTabard Tue 09-Apr-13 00:08:21

Fuck me, I am utterly gobsmacked that they printed that. I can't believe it. WTAF?

wow.

Thank you nicetabard, that sums it up, I suppose they don't even deserve the negative publicity.

OldLady cheers!

OldLadyKnowsNothing Tue 09-Apr-13 01:24:22

Wasn't just me blush it was that there Jenny too. Have you had a look at the Sunday Herald too? Both Ian and Iain write for it. It's a brilliant read.

BombJack Tue 09-Apr-13 13:05:37

The Scotsman is wrong to use imagery like this to attack the present-day SNP. As well as being divisive, it cheapens the victims of the Nazis during WWII.

SNP supporters and members should, however, take note of the SNP's official stance during the war, which was to not support the British war effort, and actively encourage Scottish workers to avoid conscription in munitions factories.

I'm not aware of the SNP ever apologising for these actions - if they have then I stand corrected. Someone linked to the Wiki page for ex-SNP leader Arthur Donaldson earlier. Those archives at Kew Gardens make interesting (disturbing) reading.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Donaldson

It's the above that perhaps makes some people think they can (wrongly) make the Swastika comparisons today. Particularly as they still have an online shrine to Donaldson:

remember.snp.org/tributes/view/arthur_donaldson/

If someone can link to a clarification of the SNP's stance during the war, that would be good. I know it's 70 years ago now - but I can't believe they haven't addressed this in some way.

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