Oscar Pistorious Pt3

(740 Posts)
bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 13:33:27

Hope no one else has started this.

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 13:34:02

Yours is the first replacement.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 22-Feb-13 13:35:12

there is another one

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 13:35:16

But I've spelled his name wrong - damn!

We`ll be on pt4 before he stops waffling

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 13:35:50

There is another one, thanks to both of you.
I'm posting on this as it's the first, he's still bloody going on though, isn't he?

DyeInTheEar Fri 22-Feb-13 13:36:10

Wow this magistrate has managed to make the biggest international story seem boring

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 13:36:16

We`ll be on pt4 before he stops waffling

How to urn dreams into a nightmare...

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 13:36:21

My 7 yr old DD will have finished prmiary before we get an answer.

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 13:37:05

I started mine the same time as you... and we're still not done!

DyeInTheEar Fri 22-Feb-13 13:37:22

Has he just asked for 5 minutes to think about this?

AnyaKnowIt Fri 22-Feb-13 13:37:25

whats going on?

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 13:37:40


bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 13:37:50

FFS! An adjournement? A fucking Adjournment? Has he talked himself hoarse or something? Bored himself stupid?

DyeInTheEar Fri 22-Feb-13 13:38:05

Has he just seen a bit more evidence....

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 13:38:13

Is he nipping out for a quick fag do we think?

He`s gone for a nap hasnt he, he`s probably exhausted.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 22-Feb-13 13:38:37

Can't believe he has just fucked off like that!

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 13:38:51

Bored himself stupid? <roars>

foofooyeah Fri 22-Feb-13 13:38:53

Keep going, I have no access to the news so need this find out what is happening IRL

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 13:38:53

Maybe he needs a glass of water after all the waffling

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 13:39:11

Whatever happens, he looks like a broken man.
Whoever said he should be on suicide watch is right.

PuffPants Fri 22-Feb-13 13:40:19

Has he gone to the library to get another history book?

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 13:40:27

I actually think the poor guy is panicking - I don't envy him having to make the call (even though it's his job).

DyeInTheEar Fri 22-Feb-13 13:40:34

He's changed his mind. Or realised he didn't give a thorough enough history of bail proceedings.

am watching it on Sky - some guy called Booth criticising the lengthy nature of these proceedings. Saying judge is leaning towards bail.

I think he`ll get bail, he`s not going anywhere, but I`d still be worried about his safety inside and out of prison.

DyeInTheEar Fri 22-Feb-13 13:42:04

Fact stranger than Fiction when it comes to this case...

ooooh they're back.

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 13:42:05

The charge has been confirmed as premeditated murder.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 13:42:22

And we are back.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 13:46:16

Oh, now he doesn't feel it necessary to go into more details over some subsection. Progress?

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 13:47:13

So, if defence show state case is weak, that falls nunder exceptional circumstances.

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 13:47:27

I think so

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 13:48:13

^I think it's progress that is.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 13:48:15

It's bail. Why won't he just say so?

PuffPants Fri 22-Feb-13 13:48:59

Ah, state case weak. Bail.

CrispyHedgeHog Fri 22-Feb-13 13:49:00

gawd this is reminding me of some of my uni lectures years ago :/

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 13:49:11

Isn't he repeating himself now?

PuffPants Fri 22-Feb-13 13:50:02

This guy owes me an hour of my life back

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 13:50:20

Botha blundered. We all know this. Just gives us the decision!

Ive gone grey since the start of this, and found a cobweb under my arm

He's criticising the investigating officer. Sounds like it could be bail.

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 13:51:35

Can Hilton Botha be made to sound any less competent?

rubyrubyruby Fri 22-Feb-13 13:52:10

Oh FGS!!

...... get on with it

All I can say is poor Reeva`s family , it sounds unlikely that we`ll never get to the truth, and they deserve that.

PuffPants Fri 22-Feb-13 13:53:39

Poor old Botha.

rubyrubyruby Fri 22-Feb-13 13:53:47

Do you think the trial will be televised?

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 13:53:54

I was joking about the rise and fall of empires earlier. I'm not any more.

PuffPants Fri 22-Feb-13 13:54:42

No, Ruby, I think he said not back when he began this monologue...

I hope with the phone records and ballistics that the truth will come out. But something tells me we will never know exactly what happened that night and that whatever the outcome there will be people that don't believe it.

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 13:55:32

I'm starting to feel as though I know Desmond Nair's face better than I do those of my children.

DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 13:56:28

Those mistakes that Botha made could influence the whole outcome of the case

That would be a travesty Dizzy, but it is looking like that.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 13:58:16

I grant bail with the following restrictions. That's all he has to say. Or the defendent is remanded. Either sentence will do. Just quit the waffle.

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 13:58:18

Agree with you Dizzy - Botha came across terribly, and the basic mistakes he made could prove catastrophic for the prosecution.

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 13:58:29

The SAP are so incompetent, a defence lawyer out if law school could win this case based on the bad police work !!! Shocking

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 13:59:01

He's tying himself in knots

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 13:59:33

He's coming across like a MN thread, back and forward trying to figure out which way his opinion goes.

The trouble with this is the bail hearing is being made into such a big thing that people might automatically assume guilty or innocent of the actual crime, rather than just getting or not getting bail iyswim

GuffSmuggler Fri 22-Feb-13 13:59:44

THIS IS NOT A TRIAL, why is he rehashing all the details we've heard already. I'm glad I don't live in a country with such a nonsense legal system.

PuffPants Fri 22-Feb-13 13:59:47

V.quiet in court - have they all nodded off?

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 14:00:21

Dear Mr Nair,
We've known each other for quite a while now, so I hope you'll excuse me writing to you when you're at work. Oscar Pistorius killed his girlfriend. There's some debate over what happened. But are you going to give him bail?

Yours, in trembling anticipation,


sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 14:01:04

He's such a dripfeeder, isn't he?

DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:01:54

I can see it all getting thrown out in the early stages if it even gets that far. It'd be very different here with a jury trial rather than a single judge. I don't see how any judge could proclaim guilt with the errors that have been made.

CrispyHedgeHog Fri 22-Feb-13 14:02:19

He sounds like he's been reading the threads on here, with the things he's having difficulty with

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 14:03:52

it sounds like he keeps building up to announcing it, then backs off at the last minute.

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 14:03:56

He's winding up

GuffSmuggler Fri 22-Feb-13 14:04:15

This is the biggest moment of Mr Nair's life and he's going to milk it.

He is Andro winding us up!

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 14:04:43

Guff, the legal system is not nonsense and this is not normal for a bail hearing, I think the magistrate knows very well the world is listening and is trying to be very thorough so there can be no calls for mistrials etc at a later date. The police have already made a cock up of it, the magistrate doesn't need to either.

But I do agree he is going on and on and on.....

rubyrubyruby Fri 22-Feb-13 14:06:15

The court should have shut 5 mins ago.
Nair wants overtime

DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:06:30

I can imagine this magistrate and what he'd be like on a thread in AIBU, drip feeder with bells on!

rubyrubyruby Fri 22-Feb-13 14:06:44

He going to get it isn't he?

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 14:07:01

Wouldn't it have been better if he put it in a written report and published it 90 minutes ago? That way he could have covered all these points, and everyone would know what they wanted to know.

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 14:07:27

That he is Dreams, that he is.

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 14:07:47

I was just about to post that bunch but you got there first grin.
He sounds exactly like this thread, in that, like the rest of us, he hasn't got a fucking clue.

DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:08:13

He wants his 10 minutes.....and then some!

I really do need to go out.

DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:10:37

Me too but I am stuck in whilst the DCs tidy their rooms sad

He says it hasn't been established that he's a flight risk.

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 14:11:09

I've got to go to the shop and walk the dog Mr Nair.
Please think of us armchair detectives out there.

Jeez... I have things to do today.

Blimey would be awful after all this if OP gets bail and then does a runner.

EllieArroway Fri 22-Feb-13 14:11:51

He's gonna get bail.

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 14:11:56

Guys, I'm going to take one for the team. I'm going to go and stand in the garden for ten minutes, without my phone. I guarantee he will announce it during that time.

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 14:12:49

Thank god he is not the trial judge, could you imagine him delivering the verdict?!? N

I don't think he'll do a runner. The case is so weak he will be confident of being found not guilty.

Go sadeye! <slaps sadeyes back in manly fashion>

msrisotto Fri 22-Feb-13 14:13:16

oooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh mmmmmmmmmmmmmmyyyyyyyyyyyy ggggggggoooooooooooooooooooooodddddddddddddddddddd this is taking forever.

We must remember apple that both sides now have time to work on their cases.

DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:14:03

Well done sadeye....
OP must be going mad with frustration, though I find it hard to summon up sympathy in a way

Get on with it! I have to go out and eat cake!!

bibagorkey Fri 22-Feb-13 14:14:40

Let's take a poll.
I say he gets bail.

i say bail

DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:15:09

omg now he is going on about innocent people...somebody shut him up!

PuffPants Fri 22-Feb-13 14:15:14


DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:15:41

i say bail...


Yes I know it could yet become a strong case once all the various test results come back but at this moment in time I would be confident if I were him.

anonacfr Fri 22-Feb-13 14:16:02

What I don't get is that according to the feed his defence said he was trying to kill an intruder, not his girlfriend.
So even if the case collapses against murdering his girlfriend shouldn't he still go to jail for killing a defenceless non-existent intruder?


bibagorkey Fri 22-Feb-13 14:16:07

3 say bail.
Any more?

CrispyHedgeHog Fri 22-Feb-13 14:16:12

I think he's going to give bail.. but crikey he's milking it for all it's worth!
Is he hoping for a book and film deal out of it?

peeriebear Fri 22-Feb-13 14:16:23

Man alive, he is going on and on and on. Get to the bloody point! I say bail.

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 14:16:27


Sheesh! If he stopped talking so much, he wouldn't need to keep stopping to drink water...

diddl Fri 22-Feb-13 14:16:29

I think bail.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 14:16:32

Nearly 2 hours to say bail or remand. 2 fecking hours I'll not get back.

On FFS.. Another pause


Sparklegeek Fri 22-Feb-13 14:16:57

Oh my good God. We've been sat here nearly 2 hours!

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 14:17:06

Anon, as far as I know he won't be able to, as the charge can't transfer from one to the other

TeenageWildlife Fri 22-Feb-13 14:17:15

Pregnant pause...

Sparklegeek Fri 22-Feb-13 14:17:16

X-post re 2 hours!

Svrider Fri 22-Feb-13 14:17:25

I say bail
I also have a sneaking suspicion the man is going to get away with the murder of a 22yo woman

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 14:17:26

bail here too.

Do we need to start a new thread yet?

ajandjjmum Fri 22-Feb-13 14:17:34

Probably not, in that SA it's understood that there is no such thing as a defenceless intruder.

DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:17:34

has the magistrate now fallen asleep?
here he goes....

seasalt Fri 22-Feb-13 14:17:43

Crispy, I don't think anyone would watch that film if it went on this long smile

DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:18:24

do they have manslaughter as an offence over there, that is not premeditated killing

TeenageWildlife Fri 22-Feb-13 14:18:43

He's not nearly finished then...

kaytola Fri 22-Feb-13 14:19:17

Bail. Should have been dealt with about 2 hours ago. Gawd, he knows the world is watching doesn't he?

I have to go and heat up DS's bottle. Bet I will miss it after waiting 2 hours

EllieArroway Fri 22-Feb-13 14:20:04

Yep. Bail.

msrisotto Fri 22-Feb-13 14:20:12


DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:20:23

nearly there? mind you the chap said quickly, has he done anything quickly?!

AnyaKnowIt Fri 22-Feb-13 14:21:01

I think bail

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 14:21:15

He should have posted in AIBU last night, to find our just how unreasonable he was in waffling for 2 hours before giving his decision, when he could easily give his decision and then explain it. He just wants to force people to actually listen to him droning on.

DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:21:35

oh...not looking so sure for bail now.

Hes given bail.

bibagorkey Fri 22-Feb-13 14:22:38

BAAAAIL Spit it out Nair

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 14:22:53

I'm back! What did I miss?

bleedingheart Fri 22-Feb-13 14:23:18

Who cheered in court?

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 22-Feb-13 14:23:23

FFS. Bail. How fecking hard would that have been to say right at the beginning.

anonacfr Fri 22-Feb-13 14:23:23

Sounds like you should back out.

TeenageWildlife Fri 22-Feb-13 14:23:25

Someone shot the judge!

DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:23:33

he hasn't said yet on bbc live? or did I miss it when talking to DS?

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 14:23:34

Bail given, after all that!!

Shouting YESSSSSS, classy when a young woman was shot dead. hmm

He's given it

EllieArroway Fri 22-Feb-13 14:23:49

I think the decision is the correct one in view of all the issues.

msrisotto Fri 22-Feb-13 14:24:13

So he was given bail. Did anyone hear the grotesque "YES!" someone shouted out?

anonacfr Fri 22-Feb-13 14:24:24

Sorry. So it is bail then? Is he allowed to go home? And how callous will it look if he's back in training next week.

currentbuns Fri 22-Feb-13 14:24:34

There's an awful sense of inevitability to all this... OP may well get away with murder.

Who was it that shouted out does anyone know?

CrispyHedgeHog Fri 22-Feb-13 14:24:50

Yes I heard that too msrisotto.. incredibly insensitive

olgaga Fri 22-Feb-13 14:25:13

The judge has only had to find on the issue of bail. His decision is not that there is not enough proof that he is a flight risk, or that he might threaten witnesses etc.

He was pretty strong on the inconsistencies and weaknesses of the defence case.

The actual trial will be a damn sight harder than this!

msrisotto Fri 22-Feb-13 14:25:50

anonacfr Yes he got bail. They are adjourning for 5 mins and then they'll give the conditions.

DizzyHoneyBee Fri 22-Feb-13 14:25:59

I missed the yes as DS was discussing which books to get rid of it (outgrown ones), disgusting....contempt of court over here I reckon.

diddl Fri 22-Feb-13 14:26:13

That was awful, msrisotto

I don´t think that there's anything in this case for anyone to be pleased about.

So is it bail with any restrictions?

bleedingheart Fri 22-Feb-13 14:26:20

That was so crass, feel pleased if you want but shut up and show some respect!

anonacfr I agree. I sincerely hope he isn't back in training next week. I can't believe his trainer even suggested it.

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 14:26:46

According tweets the yes came from the back of court

Meaning what bling? The public gallery?

I agree diddl, there is nothing to cheer about here at all.

olgaga Fri 22-Feb-13 14:27:33

Sorry I meant only not enough proof that he is a flight risk, or might threaten witnesses etc.

He hasn't got away with anything - yet.

He's still a murderer - there's no question that he murdered her.

peeriebear Fri 22-Feb-13 14:27:34

Jesus wept, the BBC coverage cut out right at the point where he announced the verdict. ARSE! Two hours of waffle for that!

EllieArroway Fri 22-Feb-13 14:27:57

I think, by the time the trial comes around, there'll be considerably more evidence to work with in terms of ballistics & forensics, so it's hard to say, current. But Botha certainly fucked up, didn't he?

Sparklegeek Fri 22-Feb-13 14:28:23

I have just listened for 2 hours & my BBC audio feed cut off about 20 secs before he gave his decision. Jeeeesus.

It says on Sky News that his family shouted out in delight.

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 14:28:40

I think so yes, not from the family

BeCool Fri 22-Feb-13 14:28:47

Surely he won't be able to go home - wouldn't it still be a crime scene?

Probably not BeCool but he has other property in Pretoria.

EllieArroway Fri 22-Feb-13 14:33:44

Hang on - apparently he's now down in the cells being processed before being released to his family.

Aren't there any conditions set to the bail? Or doesn't that judge have to reveal that publicly?

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 14:34:37

Tweet on twitter says a member of the Kenny kuene entourage shouted yes, this tweet from a journalist inside the court room

BeCool Fri 22-Feb-13 14:34:45

You'd think no access to firearms for a start

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 14:35:48

Ellie, yes they waiting for the conditions, magistrate just taking a break. Not surprised after talking for nearly 2 hours.

EllieArroway Fri 22-Feb-13 14:37:28

Ah. OK.

olgaga Fri 22-Feb-13 14:37:38

The judge pointed out that Botha was not the state's case. I think there are going to be some very uncomfortable questions for Pistorius when he stands trial.

If indeed he does...

Either way, I think the big career/hero stuff is over for him.

Bail set at 250,000 Rand which is about £18,000.

bleedingheart Fri 22-Feb-13 14:41:22

£20k bail is that right?

Can't contact witnesses and must surrender passport.

bleedingheart Fri 22-Feb-13 14:42:09


Trial to start 4th June BBC are saying.

HazelnutinCaramel Fri 22-Feb-13 14:45:29

I bet the SA judges are all trying to book holidays for June! Who would want this case, it looks impossible to decide.

Have raised bail amount to 1million Rand. Don't know what that is in pounds

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 14:46:17

R250k is hardly a lot for OP after we just heard how much he is worth.

Sky news just saying they have heard bail has risen to R1million - unconfirmed

EllieArroway Fri 22-Feb-13 14:46:19

Thought it was 1m rand - with an immediate cash payment of 100,000rand.

EllieArroway Fri 22-Feb-13 14:47:14

About £74,000

YellowFlyingPineapple Fri 22-Feb-13 14:47:39

Roughly £75,000

Not a huge amount then

Will be banned from drinking alcohol and will have to hand over his firearms. Surely they will all have been seized already!

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 14:51:14

R1mill is a LOT of money for South Africans, clearly not for OP though but it's a hell of a lot better than R250k

ChocHobNob Fri 22-Feb-13 14:51:42

Conditions: Banned from alcohol, hand over firearms and passport, avoid his home.

ChocHobNob Fri 22-Feb-13 14:52:17

Stay away from witnesses.

BeCool Fri 22-Feb-13 14:57:00

BAIL CONDITIONS (From Guardian feed)
1m rand is £73,750.

He says bail is fixed at 1m rand: a cash amount of 100,000 rand to be deposited where the accused will be detained, plus a further 900,000 rand as a gurantee and surety.

Upon payment of the 100,000 rand he must be released with the following conditions:

• He appears in court on 4 June at 8.30am.

• He surrenders all passports.

• He refrains from applying for any passports.

• He refrains from entering any airport.

• He surrenders all firearms.

• He refrains from possessing any firearms.

`• He refrains from talking to any witnesses for the prosecution.

• He will have a probation officer and correctional official from the date of release until the conclusion of the case.

• He shall inform the official all his movements and ask for permission for any journeys outside Pretoria.

• He shall give them a phone number and must be contactable day and night.

• He must not be charged with an offence of violence against women.

• He must not use drugs or alcohol.

• He must not return to his home and not make contact with any residents of his estate except the Stander family.

BigAudioDynamite Fri 22-Feb-13 15:02:07

I feel quite strongly, for no logical reason, that OP should pay bail for/help our the guy in that article that someone posted on the other thread....the paraplegic who is being denied basic care in prison whilst he awaits trial/cant afford bail

jaynebxl Fri 22-Feb-13 15:03:07

Who are the Stander family?

BeCool Fri 22-Feb-13 15:03:54

That would be great BAD - dream on though I reckon!

BigAudioDynamite Fri 22-Feb-13 15:08:16

Can Amnesty International not take on his case? How do they become aware of people who need their help?

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Fri 22-Feb-13 15:11:48

The Stander family might be relatives of Burry Stander, a mountain biker who was friends with OP. Burry was killed in a road accident quite recently.

BeCool Fri 22-Feb-13 15:36:38

John Stander was the first person Oscar called.

From his affidavit:
""I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander ("Stander") who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance."

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 15:37:26

Jeez, I step away to deal with a situation and finally gets to point 5 minutes after I left angry

I can't help but feel it was the right result though...at least for this stage of proceedings.

diddl Fri 22-Feb-13 15:45:57

Is it usual for someone charged with murder to get bail?

YellowFlyingPineapple Fri 22-Feb-13 15:51:59

Stander is the head of security on the Estate I think

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 15:52:16

Not for premeditated murder diddl although under the exceptional circumstances clause there is scope (and almost certainly past precedent) for bail to be given - it's not as if OP has been given bail just because he's OP.

diddl Fri 22-Feb-13 15:54:50

No I wasn't thinking it's because he was OP.

I thought it was yet to be determined if it was premeditated?

I suppose I just find it odd that you can shoot someone & then be free to await the trial!

BeCool Fri 22-Feb-13 15:59:42

Diddl I believe it is because, even though there is no doubt he killed her, there is a chance he could be found guilty of a lesser charge that carries a non-custodial sentence (i.e. if they believe his account that is was an accident and he killed her by mistake and it was a reasonable mistake to make).

BeCool Fri 22-Feb-13 16:00:21

I agree it is odd - but it is a possibility in SA

I agree diddl, I find it odd and somewhat depressing, as in life is cheap.

BeCool Fri 22-Feb-13 16:05:43

Although I find OP's account of the evening well dubious, I did feel a sense of relief he got bail. Purely because the jails are so incredibly inhumane, debased and horrendous, I don't think ANYONE should have to go there. Not even really bad bad people should be kept in those conditions in a civilised society.

I'm keeping the faith that justice will prevail eventually.

diddl Fri 22-Feb-13 16:06:34

Then for me it beggars belief that he might get a non-custodial sentence for taking a life.

LegoWidow Fri 22-Feb-13 16:07:01

diddl - I was reading the other day that bail is viewed differently in SA than the UK and that it is more the default position/enshrined as a principle since the end of apartheid - trying to move away from imprisonment without trial of that era.

LegoWidow Fri 22-Feb-13 16:10:37

..though obviously not for that poor disabled guy in prison who can't afford to apply for bail.

As I've said on another thread, I am inclined to believe OP at the moment. Whilst his story does seem far-fetched, so does the alternative. I'm not blindly believing him though and will wait to see what comes out in the trial.

BeCool Fri 22-Feb-13 16:15:44

Yes I agree diddl - even if his account it true, he was unnecessarily reckless and his assumptions were (I think) completely unreasonable. Many other countries would give a custodial sentence.

That's interesting Lego.

lowercase Fri 22-Feb-13 16:16:56

all my sympathy with Reeva and her family.

this is so wrong.

BeCool Fri 22-Feb-13 16:17:11

Perhaps one of the 'positives' of this sorry sad mess, is SA jails will come under an international spotlight - perhaps something will change for the better?

Maryz Fri 22-Feb-13 16:36:26

Well, I almost waited at home until 12.30 to hear the result.

I'm very glad I didn't wait around.

I'm not surprised with the mess the prosecution have made that he did get bail. The trouble with such a high profile bail case, and with all the evidence being given at this stage, I can't see how he will get a fair trial from the public's point of view - though I suppose a judge will be able to be fair hmm

I still can't find out what the verdict would be if there had been an intruder in the toilet.

DyeInTheEar Fri 22-Feb-13 16:47:43

Things I've heard and not sure if they are facts in this case: can anyone help with these?

1. She was dressed
Does this mean dressed in her day clothes?

2. He got up to get a fan and close the sliding doors.
Does this mean the balcony doors were unlocked? Don't understand how you can be paranoid about safety and armed but leave doors open.

3. Was his safe opened by OP or by the police?

Poor, poor woman and her devastated family.

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 16:49:32

Then for me it beggars belief that he might get a non-custodial sentence for taking a life.

Now THAT really is a whole different thread! People avoid jail after taking a life for many reasons; some perhaps justified, others not so much!

RedPencils Fri 22-Feb-13 16:56:13

Things I've heard and not sure if they are facts in this case: can anyone help with these?
1. She was dressed - shorts and vest, so could be either nightclothes or normal clothes. Is it summer there at the moment?

*2. He got up to get a fan and close the sliding doors.
Does this mean the balcony doors were unlocked? Don't understand how you can be paranoid about safety and armed but leave doors open. *
I think they were open, agree its strange to leave it open.

3. Was his safe opened by OP or by the police?
I think his brother at the request of the police, but there appears to be an issue of his brother looking for a USB stick which the prosecution raised. Not sure what that's all about though

Not surprised he got bail really. Prosecution were caught napping. Don't think they'll make that mistake for the trial.

DyeInTheEar Fri 22-Feb-13 16:57:56

I guess accidents with guns - resulting in a death - are seen in the same way as an accident with a car. Unfortunate rather than heinous and not really punishable by a long prison sentence.

I just don't understand how his defence makes it OK?

DyeInTheEar Fri 22-Feb-13 16:58:52

Thanks Red

diddl Fri 22-Feb-13 17:10:51

But it wasn´t an accident in that he deliberately shot into a small area knowing(?) that someone was there.

DyeInTheEar Fri 22-Feb-13 17:19:49

Yes that's true diddl. Accidental shooting isn't the right description of what happened. He shot with the intention of killing.

What I meant was the reaction to shooting the "wrong" person in SA seems be considered unfortunate but you shouldn't be jailed for it. Which is one of the many things I find shocking about all of this.

OhToBeCleo Fri 22-Feb-13 18:06:57

he's not disputing his guilt at killing her - just the premeditation

Manchesterhistorygirl Fri 22-Feb-13 18:29:41

Not really surprised he got bail to be honest. I predict this will never make trial because SAPS have made such an arse of the prosecution and given that they were trying to make political capital out of it earlier on, means they won't want the international spotlight on them to show up just what a mess they made of it.

Poor Reeva, she deserves justice what ever that may mean, but I don't think that SAPS failings will ever let that happen.

That said I'm glad that OP got bail and as for his coach saying back in training I suppose its his way of dealing with it. Old fashioned stiff upper lip and all that.

Whoever posted about empires rising and falling, that made me laugh. I was following twitter whilst in a politics lecture and it was so long winded! (Both the hearing and the lecture).

OhToBeCleo Fri 22-Feb-13 18:47:05

I don't think they could possibly get away with this NOT coming to trial. It would be an even worse reflection on the SA judicial system than we've already seen. For the sake of repairing their global image they need it to come to trial (and the fact that he can't stay on bail for ever).

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 19:08:00

I don't think they could possibly get away with this NOT coming to trial.

They could, if they wanted to hang certain members of the police force out to dry. For example:

Any evidence in the custody of Hilton Botha, or evidence that had been under his jurisdiction declared inadmissible on the grounds of incorrect procedure (that's most of the physical evidence gone, plus any original statements made by OP and witnesses).

Further witness statements could then be called into question on the grounds of delays in obtaining them - how accurate would they be?

The court could then state that the case against OP, on the charge of premeditated murder cannot proceed as there is insufficient evidence remaining to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

Given the incompetence of Botha at the bail hearing, I doubt it would surprise a lot of people if the courts were able to show compromised chain of custody wrt evidence as a result of his (in)actions.

Voila, a get out of jail (relatively) free card for the SA courts and OP.

(I'm not suggesting this would happen, just a possible route by which trial could be avoided).

The other option of course is that a guilty plea to culpable homicide is accepted...no need for a trial then either.

MechanicalTheatre Fri 22-Feb-13 19:15:10

Today I just can't get away from my feeling that he really didn't think it was her.

I don't know why.

PuffPants Fri 22-Feb-13 19:18:34

Could he offer a guilty plea to culpable homicide when he hasn't been charged with that?

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 19:23:11

That actually wouldn't surprise me Andro.
I do think the defence went out of the way to discredit the word of all the prosecution witnesses rather than defend OP.
I think, if they win the case, it's because they will look (and probably find) inconsistencies with the police investigation and it could be thrown out of court before the trial even gets going.

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 19:25:19

PuffPants - Plea bargains happen in SA, the Bees Roux case is one example where a murder charge was plea bargained to culpable homicide.


thefirstmrsrochester Fri 22-Feb-13 19:26:19

Oh absolutely andro, the monumental balls up that the prosecution has been is a gift to the defence.
Magistrate asked the prosecution yesterday if they had represented in murder trials which were downgraded to culpable homicide. They had, under the same magistrate.
They really cocked it up.

Xenia Fri 22-Feb-13 19:29:04

You can kill someone in the UK without committing any crime at all.
Loads of examples - driving safely down a road and some idiot comes in front of your car.
Self defence
In your sleep
etc etc

Andro Fri 22-Feb-13 19:30:14

A cock up of enormous proportions without a doubt!

WileyRoadRunner Fri 22-Feb-13 19:30:52

PuffPants I have been wondering that too...

PuffPants Fri 22-Feb-13 19:38:19

If he did go for culpable homicide, what's the sentence - did I read 15 yrs minimum?

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 19:49:54

Just found this article online, answer quite a few questions about SA legal system


Linking from my phone so hopefully it works

BlingBubbles Fri 22-Feb-13 19:58:42

Puffpants, there is no mandatory sentencing for culpable homicide, it's up to the judge who is sentencing the case to decide based upon the evidence. As I think other posters have said on this thread already people have been spared jail time when they have accidentally shot loved ones in previous cases. It all depends on the evidence and the outcome of the case.

ArmchairDetective Fri 22-Feb-13 20:05:17

Three things that have been gnawing away at me about this case.

I find it interesting that the prosecution have not yet revealed the "motive" yet that they were hinting at. I guess they are saving that for the full trial.

I saw something on Reeva's Twitter feed where someone asked her "When's the big day". To which she replied words to the effect of "What big day, I'm not getting married". I found this exchange quite chilling. This was a couple of days before she was murdered.

Lastly, it is interesting that OP has been forbidden to take drugs or drink alcohol whilst on bail. I have been wondering whether alcohol might have been drunk on the night in question and whether it had anything to do with what happened but it does not seem to have been mentioned. Presume it will show up on the toxicology reports anyway. Apparently it's quite unusual for this to be a bail condition unless someone has a history of alcoholism or was acting under the influence.

OhToBeCleo Fri 22-Feb-13 20:34:48

I saw something on Reeva's Twitter feed where someone asked her "When's the big day". To which she replied words to the effect of "What big day, I'm not getting married". I found this exchange quite chilling. This was a couple of days before she was murdered.

armchairdetective I'm not sure what you're implying by that. Would you have found that chilling if you'd read that on the 13th Feb? Have you never been in a conversation where you/someone else has been discussing a love affair and said 'when's the big day?' (in a nudge nudge wink wink kind of way).

ArmchairDetective Fri 22-Feb-13 20:44:23

Maybe I just think it's haunting because I understand (obv don't know if source was accurate) Reeva had said she would marry Oscar if he had asked herand from other accounts I've heard he thought he might have a future with her too- And some idiot on Twitter made a comment on there that they wondered if OP had read it over her shoulder.

I don't know what I'm implying or the person commenting was implying. I suppose it just seems beyond comprehension that someone could deliberately or accidentally (without due care) murder someone they might have had a very different future with

LegoWidow Fri 22-Feb-13 21:18:55

ArmchairDetective - I'm being a bit dim as I'm not sure what you mean re the tweet. Maybe that it's poignant that she's talking about there not being a big day and, now there never will be any day for her? Good point re the motive - presumably though the prosecution don't have one (yet?) or they would have outlined it at least, surely.

MechanicalTheatre - I'm the same as you. The more I read, the more I believe him.

So tragic.

ArmchairDetective Fri 22-Feb-13 21:34:10

Motive- I read that the Prosecution said they definately had a motive

Re the tweet- perhaps lets just scrub that comment. Think I'm reading too much into that.

I have to lay my cards on the table though and say I do think OP is telling the truth. Yes it does sound almost unbelievable but perhaps I find the alternative scenario more unbelievable.

I do wonder what will happen over the next few months. I presume he'll have to live as if under house arrest as surely journos and photographers will follow his ever move. I wouldn't be surprise if his life was threatened which makes me wonder what security arrangements will be put in place.

rubyrubyruby Fri 22-Feb-13 21:35:49

He's not allowed home under the conditions of his bail.

ArmchairDetective Fri 22-Feb-13 21:43:43

I know he can't live in his home but he will be tracked down by the press wherever he goes

LegoWidow Fri 22-Feb-13 21:53:57

Yes, ArmchairDetective - it does sound unbelievable yet, I agree, the alternative seems even more unbelievable. I agree, he will probably just lay low at his uncle's (where he is apparently staying) for some time. The press will be following/watching him like hawks.

I just read something in an article that quoted his uncle as saying that he ate yesterday for the first time in 6 days (probably not strictly true, but I know what he means). I didn't agree at all with the prosecution's assertions that he doesn't seem to realise the enormity of what he's done, and just wants to return to life as normal. He seems like a broken man, in the depths of anguish and despair - understandably.

Interesting if the prosecution say they have a motive - but didn't put it forward.

LegoWidow Fri 22-Feb-13 21:55:08

Oscar ate for the first time - not his uncle, I mean! A small aside - but I guess I'm just making the point that he seems utterly bereft (and rightly so).

OhToBeCleo Fri 22-Feb-13 22:29:39

I agree that he seems completely traumatised and remorseful. And I believe his story. I don't think you can apply retrospective rational analysis to what must have been a moment of sheer fear and madness (and paranoia).

I'll be interested to hear what this 'motive' is - but given how much the prosecution stretched the truth in the first couple of days ('screaming was heard all night' and 'steriods were found') I'm not sure I'd believe hearsay on a motive just yet.

MechanicalTheatre Fri 22-Feb-13 22:44:30

Basically, I just can't believe that somebody intending to murder someone would shoot through a closed door. It doesn't seem like the best way to kill someone, far too haphazard.

What this has really brought home to me is how awful South Africa's jails are. I have absolutely no sympathy with murderers - but I feel sick when I think about him going to jail, even if he's guilty. Of course thousands of people go to these awful jails every year, but then it's different when it is someone you "know". Someone you've seen running, talking, laughing. I don't mean he matters more, I mean it seems more real to me.

Imagine how terrifying it must be. Something really needs to be done about the situation in those prisons. It is completely inhumane.

LegoWidow Fri 22-Feb-13 22:48:18

MechanicalTheatre and OhToBeCleo - totally agree with what you both say.

BlingBubbles - thanks for the link to the info re SA legal/trial system. So it could be a 4-6 month trial - wow

MechanicalTheatre Fri 22-Feb-13 22:58:59

Hrm, unless he just did it in the heat of the moment, after an argument...

GOD. I don't know.

sunnyO Fri 22-Feb-13 23:16:47

This is what 'White Male privilege' looks like.

lowercase Fri 22-Feb-13 23:18:44

Well said sunny.

I wonder what this case would look like had Reeva been the shooter?

EllieArroway Fri 22-Feb-13 23:26:54

The more I read his story, the less I believe it. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened that way, but it seems very unlikely to me.

Apparently, in SA law, you are only justified in taking a life in self-defence if there's really no other option available to you. If there's a chance of escape instead of confrontation and you don't take it & pursue in order to kill/wound then you are guilty of murder.

He had the chance to escape. He was standing by the bedroom door. OK it was locked, but could have been unlocked easily, but he could have quietly shaken Reeva awake and attempted to leave the room, gun trained on the bathroom.

Instead, he walks down a pitch black corridor and turns a blind corner with no idea of what's waiting there and fires straight into a closed door knowing that he'll almost certainly hit anyone in there because it's so small.

That's an incredibly foolhardy thing to do - and it's cold blooded murder, no matter who is on the other side of the door.

There was no effort to avoid confrontation - actually, he went looking for it. This is not what terrified, vulnerable feeling people tend to do.

Human life is precious and he deserves a lengthy prison term.

MechanicalTheatre Fri 22-Feb-13 23:32:36

Is it what male white privilege looks like? I am not sure that I would have a different opinion if a black male or a white woman had been the shooter.

But of course, white male privilege is all around us. It is impossible to seperate it from anything really. I do very much doubt that a black South African with no money would have got bail today, and that is grim.

EllieArroway Fri 22-Feb-13 23:32:47

And, as the prosecutor said, he was desperate to protect Reeva from the "intruder" but didn't even glance at her when he bends down to her side of the bed to get the gun? Yes it was dark - but no so dark that she couldn't make her way to the toilet without lights or he to the balcony?

It makes no sense. And when something makes no sense it's usually nonsense.

I think he lost his temper - like OJ with Nicole.

MechanicalTheatre Fri 22-Feb-13 23:40:01

But if you lost your temper, would you shoot the person through the door? That makes no sense to me either.

Neither version makes sense.

MechanicalTheatre Fri 22-Feb-13 23:55:45

Also, he didn't have his legs on. So it's not like he could just have run out of the house if there was an intruder. He'd have had to have stopped, got his legs on...by which point, the intruder could have shot him.

I can see how vulnerable you might feel in that situation.

I can't see why he wouldn't check Reeva was in the bed though.

runningforme Sat 23-Feb-13 00:04:01

mechanicalTheatre we don't know for sure yet that he didn't have his legs on. We won't know for sure until the investigation is complete as to the angle/point of entry/height etc of the bullets through the door

MechanicalTheatre Sat 23-Feb-13 00:10:34

In his version, though, he didn't have his legs on.

I'm only speculating on whether his version is true or not.

The SA policeman, Botha, hes been totally incompetent throughout this investigation to the point that people have said that his mistakes may cost the trial. It just makes me think about the corruption that so many people from SA have mentioned, is there any possibility that..................?

WormCanner Sat 23-Feb-13 00:26:23

His story is a load of old bollix and he's as guilty as sin. He thought his missus was enanrmored of another bloke and he lost it. Simple as that. Case closed.

LadyBeagleEyes Sat 23-Feb-13 00:38:00

'White Male Privilege'
Can we, for once not look at this as a feminist or race issue?
I was a huge fan of OP, and I'm glued to this thread.
But like everybody else I haven't got a clue what happened that night, and like all of us, we have to wait for the trial, when I think a lot more information will come out.
Meanwhile, he's got bail at the moment, but with the chance he'll spend half of his life in prison.
I hope he's just left alone by the press until he appears in court.

sadeyedladyofthelowlandsase Sat 23-Feb-13 00:44:57

You forgot the MN approved <gavel> Worm.

I dunno with this case to be honest. I stayed in SA for six months, I have friends there. Crime there is casual, daily and unimaginable for people in the UK. But it does seem odd that someone as paranoid as OP would sleep with balcony doors open. But again, he was on a gated estate. I know that I ended up infected with paranoia after a short time there, which was sharpened when I got shot at when I saw people break into a property. I felt a lot better when I (briefly) stayed with someone on a gated community.

I find OP's account implausible, but it's so implausible that it might just be true. People do react in strange ways when they're scared and feeling vulnerable. And I'd like to give praise to the Guardian who have devoted massive coverage to this under the headline 'Reeva Steenkamp murder', rather than 'Oscar Pistorius Case'.

BigAudioDynamite Sat 23-Feb-13 06:11:07

Yes it is sonny, it stinks of it

rubyrubyruby Sat 23-Feb-13 06:46:41

'White Male Privilege' ?

Issued by a 'Black Male'

OhToBeCleo Sat 23-Feb-13 09:09:35

oh worm,who needs a judicial system eh? you've got it all wrapped up!

DyeInTheEar Sat 23-Feb-13 09:26:53

I find his thought process incogitable. To make the immediate jump to an intruder and shooting does not make any sense regardless how of how violent a society SA is. You could be in a war zone and your first assumption would be that the person in the bathroom was the person who'd just been in the bed.

Moor than likely he didn't mean to kill her but I struggle to believe this claim that he didn't know it was her in the bathroom.

Going back to what Xenia said about how you can kill people in the UK and not get any custodial sentence at all, let alone a trial or even lose your job, it's completely true. Ask Mid-Staffs.

PuffPants Sat 23-Feb-13 09:39:48

My guess is they had a row and she walked away from him, into the loo - to cool down or just end the fight and she probably did use the loo once she was in there. That angered him, he's outside shouting for her to come out, open the door etc then, in a fit of rage, he grabs his gun and shoots the door to get her to open it.

I don't think he wanted or intended to kill her but, clearly, his actions were reckless, dangerous and likely to result in tragedy.

I don't believe he is guilty of premeditated murder but culpable homicide, yes.

For me, the phones dropped on the bathroom floor are a red flag and point to a domestic incident.

DyeInTheEar Sat 23-Feb-13 09:51:37

My guess is they had a row and she walked away from him, into the loo - to cool down or just end the fight and she probably did use the loo once she was in there. That angered him, he's outside shouting for her to come out, open the door etc then, in a fit of rage, he grabs his gun and shoots the door to get her to open it.

That's how I imagine it too Puff. I think he's telling the truth when he said he didn't mean to kill her but his fear that there was an intruder so he got his gun and shot at a closed door is too outlandish and improbable for me. More like he's (rightly) terrified of a life sentence in a SA jail and will say what he needs to get out of a murder trial.

I worry though that I'm projecting because OP looks like my ex and he was a possessive angry man.

LadyBeagleEyes Sat 23-Feb-13 10:02:45

Actually, that's pretty much my take on it too Puff and Dyein, I think he shot at the door in a rage, but didn't mean to hit her.

diddl Sat 23-Feb-13 10:17:11

I´ve been thinking that too, Puff.

That he happened to be on the balcony & therefore didn´t see/hear her go to the loo, therefore thought the sound was an intruder-just too much for me tbh.

That & the fact that on thinking it was an intruder, he did nothing to establish her whereabouts before blindly shooting into a small space.

BigAudioDynamite Sat 23-Feb-13 10:23:38

What's the thing with the phones on the bathroom floor?

EllieArroway Sat 23-Feb-13 10:29:44

I agree, Puff. I doubt he intended to kill her - he probably shot the door out of fury. He may have assumed she was at the toilet end of the cubicle, but from where she was hit it shows she was standing behind the door.

Also, if his account is true, why didn't he stop when he heard Reeva scream? She must have done. The only way she wouldn't have screamed is if the first shot hit her head and she couldn't - but one of the shots went through her raised hand. This makes no sense - she wouldn't have been able to raise her hand if the first shot was into her head. The first shot must have have hit either her hip or arm - and she WOULD have screamed.

*That's obviously assuming the accounts given so far are correct - and we clearly can't rely on that, thanks to Botha.

EllieArroway Sat 23-Feb-13 10:32:05

Both of their phones were found on the bathmat in front of the shower, Bad - so it's likely that Reeva took her phone to the bathroom with her. Seems odd if she was just going for a wee.

thefirstmrsrochester Sat 23-Feb-13 10:35:27

Odd re the phones also. They apparently were not used to make any calls in the hours before the shooting, or after.
His defence will say he took his intending to phone police but the presence of the other phone? Given the balls up thus far thanks to Botha, who knows what to believe.

Sparklegeek Sat 23-Feb-13 10:39:06

I'm guessing he could explain the phones thing by saying he ran back to the bedroom to phone for help, grabbed the first phone he saw, returned to the bathroom to call, realised it was hers (maybe with a number lock?) so went & got his own?

I don't know, just saying how that could be explained away. I think the phone logs, when they get them (DERRRRRR!) will be very telling.

PuffPants Sat 23-Feb-13 10:51:22

The problem for the prosecution is that OP's version of events is merely strange and, unless they have evidence to prove he is lying (which they may well have by the trial but certainly didn't have this week) you can't convict someone on the basis that their story sounds unlikely.

Like locking the toilet door - just because you or I might never do that, doesn't mean it's beyond the realm of possibility that someone would.

Xenia Sat 23-Feb-13 11:01:30

I don't think anyone on the thread thinks everyone who shoot someone dead has committed an offence and most of us would not want that to be so.

Someone spiked the drink of Ben Fogle recently. Say he then went off and shot someone that would not be his fault. Or in your sleep you strange your husband or someone is shooting at you and you shoot at them or someone walks out in front of your car. Of course we don't think if you shoot dead you are always guilty of an offence. That would be ridiculous.

I want to see the texts the girlfriend sent but it certainly at the moment looks like an accident. Now of course it may not be self defence and it may be some kind of accidental death because perhaps he ought to have shouted out or checked the door but the trial will examine the evidence what is left of it after the police mistakes.

What was on the memory stick his brother recovered or wanted to recover?

I do think the phone and text records will help. If she were locked on the loo scared of him with her phone she would be texting her friends about it.

Did the first of the 4 shots kill her and how much time was there between each of the 4 shots? Why didn't he call an ambulance first rather than friends or relatives? Did he call for medical help before he moved her?
Do you wear shorts in bed if you 're in bed with a new lover you might marry?

Maryz Sat 23-Feb-13 11:04:15

I still have no idea what to believe confused.

The only thing that makes me think his story might be true is that it's so bizarre it would be quite difficult to make up.

There seems to have been an hour between the shooting and the police turning up.

If they were trying to prove a story, wouldn't they have made it more convincing - moved the phones, moved her bag to show she was sleeping on the other side of the bed, maybe knocked something over near the bathroom window, that kind of thing.

I don't know. The difficulty so far is that every actual fact seems to be explainable away by a plausible (if unlikely) alternative.

The door locking, for example - if she heard him shouting at an "intruder", wouldn't she have locked the door, stood behind it and kept quiet? If I was her, I certainly wouldn't have shouted because I would have presumed the intruder was somewhere between me and the bedroom. Same with the phones - he grabs first phone he sees.

The balcony doors - are there outer shutters on the balcony?

The front door - he opened it to let the security man in?

The phone calls - it seems usual in SA to call someone other than the police?

All strange by our standards, but plausible all the same.

thefirstmrsrochester Sat 23-Feb-13 11:05:10

Agree puff, almost so strange you couldn't make it up. Of course it may well be proven to be exactly that at trial.
What was with the memory sticks? OPs family took them or were wanting them out a safe?

Maryz Sat 23-Feb-13 11:07:49

And the memory stick/safe - if there is as much corruption as some people seem to think there is in SA, and you knew your brother/son was going to be banned from his house for the foreseeable future, wouldn't you want to take valuables with you? His brother trying to open the safe is also plausible.

The important facts we don't have: How much time between the shots, the order of the shots, the trajectory of the shots. Those would clarify a lot - if of course they can be traced at this stage, since the forensic evidence may be less than ideal hmm.

I do think Reeva's family and friends have been very dignified throughout this, neither baying for blood or openly complaining about anything. And it must be such a hard time for them.

thefirstmrsrochester Sat 23-Feb-13 11:09:07

X post with Maryz.

EllieArroway Sat 23-Feb-13 11:26:51

I don't think his story is so bizarre it would be difficult to make up. I think its exactly what you would say if you'd shot your girlfriend to death but didn't want to admit it. His story isn't actually that complex and the embellishments (like not having his legs on) are easy to come up with if you're casting around for reasons to explain why you were so terrified by a mere noise in the en suite bathroom. The story would have evolved in the telling while Botha was questioning him.

But, I agree - the ballistics is really important. They may well show that Botha was right and they were "down" indicating that he had his legs on when he shot. Could be wrong, but I think they can tell an awful lot from the position of the bullet holes in the door, and Botha couldn't really bugger than up.

And the evidence from Reeva's phone will also be really important & could provide a motivation which seems to be lacking at the moment. That's why I think it's premature to think he'll definitely walk.

ChocHobNob Sat 23-Feb-13 11:28:32

The prosecution stated the memory sticks had details of offshore accounts on them which they were concerned would be used for him to flee on bail ... but like the Magistrate said, if they thought that, why on earth didn't they confiscate them? It was the Policeman's crime scene, he could have taken them if he had wanted.

I thought he had rang the estate security first to ring for medical help and also rang the hospital directly. But this conflicted with the Policeman saying the phones "hadn't been used" ... but again, as the magistrate said, the Policeman should have checked the phone records for the bail hearing to give some clarity over OP's claims in his statement.

I personally think as bizarre as OP's statement sounds, it sounds possible. If he lived in such a fear of violence and intruders, he could well have shot without thinking (which he needs to take full responsibility for though).

When I heard the bathroom door was locked, I thought Reeva may well have locked it after hearing OP shout for an intruder to leave the house.

However I also wondered the same as PP's. Just how quickly were the shots fired, did Reeva shout out when she was hit? The phone records will be revealing.

I was wondering why after the incident, the Police released to the press that they had been called to his home before for domestic incidents, yet didn't use any of those reports in the Bail hearing as evidence that he could be violent to refuse bail. They also said OP hadn't said he thought Reeva was an intruder when that is in fact his story of events.

The Police really messed up by the sounds of it.

RedPencils Sat 23-Feb-13 11:29:33

All scenarios seem equally likely and unlikely.

I just read the BBC journalist who suggests the proescution may have opposed bail in order to get OP's version of events out in the open so they can pull it apart for the trial.

ChocHobNob Sat 23-Feb-13 11:31:15

Redpencils that crossed my mind too. They now know exactly what to focus on to disprove his story.

RedPencils Sat 23-Feb-13 11:39:20

And the defence don't know what evidence the prosecution have ie phone calls, gunshots etc. Perhaps Botha isn't a bungling incompetent after all but a detecting genius.

Maryz Sat 23-Feb-13 11:46:45

That's a good point.

I don't get them saying "we know he has a motive" for example, but not stating it. Surely if they had proof of a motive he wouldn't have got bail?

I think the police genuinely think he did it on purpose. But good police work doesn't involve deciding guilt first and finding evidence afterwards, it involves looking at the evidence and then deciding guilt. The way this has been done so far isn't encouraging from the point of view of hoping the real truth will come out.

Salbertina Sat 23-Feb-13 11:47:45

Yes, its been mishandled to say the least

ohthedandy Sat 23-Feb-13 12:21:21

Maybe the balcony doors weren't such an issue for OP if there really is no way it could easily be accessed from outside. I know there were ladders around the other side of the house, but OP didn't think about them until he heard the noise from the bathroom.

The magistrate wondered why OP had decided "confronting" was better than getting away. Poster above is probably right about OP needing his legs to get down the stairs - how easily does OP negotiate stairs without them?

Re Reeva crying out when shot by the first bullet - how loud is the sound of a shots/reverberation of shots (in a marble/tiled (?) bathroom? Enough to drown out any other sound?

Not checking the bed - I just don't know . I'm not him and I've never been that terrified.

I see I've mentioned OP "thinking" above - I honestly don't think he would have been "thinking" at all - he would have been running on instinct/adrenalin.

All this is assuming his version is true - I'm in the 'believe him' camp and will have a rethink when the prosecution make their proper case.

Taken me so long to type that, the thread has probably moved on ...........

LegoWidow Sat 23-Feb-13 12:44:28

I agree - the phone records and the bullet trajectory will be vital evidence.

ChocHobNob - yes, he had apparently called the estate security and private paramedics. The police mistake there was presuming that the phones that they found were the only ones and so didn't bother checking his actual current phone - which showed that the calls were made. I think that the prosecution accepted that he had made those calls and that there were records of them - but they also are getting full records on all phones. I think they are waiting for records on all phones - eg to see if she made/received any calls/texts too.

I don't believe that if they had any evidence of a motive (more than just suspicions which I'm SURE they have) that they wouldn't have put it forward at the bail hearing.

Re the locking of the door. I guess the defence will say that when he shouting out about an intruder - she locked the door. That is entirely plausible. Re whether someone would just lock the door anyway - my DP always locks the toilet door, even when it's just the 2 of us - and we've been together for 15 years! I, on the other hand, barely bother to shut the door!

MyCatsRule Sat 23-Feb-13 13:23:49

Apologies if this has been said elsewhere on a thread, but has anything been mentioned about whether Reeva was actually 'on the loo' at the time? eg did she have her lower clothes up or down? Surely that would explain if she actually was going to the loo or just hiding there? Sorry if I sound at all crass - don't know how else to put it.

hackmum Sat 23-Feb-13 13:24:04

If I was the police, I'd also want to check whether it's feasible that the neighbour 300 metres away would have been able to hear screams. Easy enough to test, I'd have thought. And obviously I'd want to ask the other neighbours (assuming there are any) if they heard anything.

hackmum Sat 23-Feb-13 13:31:50

Ellie: "Also, if his account is true, why didn't he stop when he heard Reeva scream? She must have done. The only way she wouldn't have screamed is if the first shot hit her head and she couldn't - but one of the shots went through her raised hand. This makes no sense - she wouldn't have been able to raise her hand if the first shot was into her head. The first shot must have have hit either her hip or arm - and she WOULD have screamed."

That's a really good point. To me, the strangest thing about the intruder story is the idea that you would shoot four times, however frightened you were. You would, surely, shoot once and then wait to hear if someone screamed or slumped to the floor. His story seems inherently implausible. And yet I think the thing that many people (including me) find hard to believe is that someone as successful as that would be prepared to throw it all away in a fit of temper.

LegoWidow Sat 23-Feb-13 13:51:58

Do we know that one of the shots went through her raised hand? I know that it went through her hand - but could it have been through her hand into e.g. her hip? Good point if so though. I can understand her not calling out if he shouted that there was an intruder - but I can't understand why she didn't call out when she was first hit. Though I guess the shots could have been fired in quick succession.

I think that - understandably - the point that most people struggle to get their head round is that he didn't check whether she was in the bed or not. I mentioned elsewhere that a few weeks ago I was absolutely convinced that DP was in the bed next to me. I got up and went to the loo (all in the dark) and he was sat there on the toilet in the dark - and scared the bejesus out of me! (I know I said earlier that he always locks the door - he does downstairs but our upstairs toilet/shower room just has a sliding door) I screamed. Now obviously I didn't go on to shoot him - but that's a different issue. My point is just that you can be absolutely convinced of something like that - and OP's argument is one step further than that - that she was in bed with him when he got up, but that she must have gone into the bathroom when he was getting the fan. I don't know.

Whilst I'm erring on the side of believing him (at the moment) - I do think that the scenario that PuffPants presents is plausible - ie that he was reckless and dangerous but didn't intend to kill.

Maryz Sat 23-Feb-13 13:53:21

We still don't know how quickly he fired four times, though, do we?

Many modern pistols can fire four shots in a couple of seconds.

So instead of shot, pause, shot, pause, shot, pause shot, it could have been a continuous noise with only an echo in between.

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 14:14:14

And the defence don't know what evidence the prosecution have ie phone calls, gunshots etc.

Surely the prosecution will have to share all this way before trial though?

Perhaps Botha isn't a bungling incompetent after all but a detecting genius grin

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 14:16:31

It is of course plausible that the first shot killed RS which is why there was no scream? sad I feel awful even saying that out loud.

I thought they were suggesting one bullet went through raised hand into her head?

That part of the trial will be very difficult for all involved.

I do wonder once the evidence sharing starts whether there might be a "deal" made on culpable homicide.

Sparklegeek Sat 23-Feb-13 14:27:54

Somebody with knowledge of guns stated upthread or on the earlier thread that you wouldn't have been able to hear a thing firing off 4 bullets within a confined space. So if he did the 4 shots one after the other with no pause then it's feasible he wouldn't have heard even if she had screamed sad

thefirstmrsrochester Sat 23-Feb-13 14:27:57

I had been thinking that too wiley sad

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 14:38:40

But then i suppose why would her hand be raised to her head . . . i would presume that would be a self preservation reaction.

I don't know - i think sparkle that that is correct and probably what the defence will go with.

I think as things stand (circumstantial evidence only) it will be hard to convict as there only has to be a speck of doubt that he is guilty for him to be acquitted.

flippinada Sat 23-Feb-13 14:43:57

I was reading a news story this morning on the bbc about this.

Some very moving and thought provoking words from Reeva Steenkamps family which acts a salutary reminder what this is all about . Her mother said "The Pistorius family have sent flowers. They mean nothing".

It's really sad though not unsurprising that the focus is all on him and the effect it will have on him.

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 14:53:46

Yes flippinada I also heard that they said the outcome of the trial made no difference as it would never bring Reeva back.

It's so sad, and I imagine trying to mourn your child when you don't know what led up the death must be so confusing. Was she hiding in the bathroom terrified or did it all come out of nowhere. Should they hate OP or is he really mourning "with" them (as his uncle put it).

Inevitably they are going to be dragged into the media circus around the trial despite not wanting to be. Grieving is such a private thing and no parent should have to bury a child, they must be in unimaginable pain sad

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 15:00:45

^ that first line doesn't sound quite right.

What I was trying to say was I can see from the family's pov whether he languishes in Pretoria prison or competes around the world again that changes nothing for them, their daughter is still never coming home.

flippinada Sat 23-Feb-13 15:03:26

I can't imagine what they are going through. It must be hell on earth sad

I was feeling some sympathy for OP today, then I read that and saw a clip of one of her relatives breaking down at her funeral on the news and that evaporated.

PuffPants Sat 23-Feb-13 15:05:33

They may think it changes nothing right now. But in a year's time, if OP is back competing or just walking free, seeing his friends, having lunch with his family etc I think they will mind very much that their daughter is dead and her killer has not been punished. I imagine it would be hard to separate the two things.

Him going to prison won't ease their suffering but getting away with it would surely increase it.

flippinada Sat 23-Feb-13 15:06:13

I knew what you meant Wiley

The whole thing is just unutterably sad and horrible.

PuffPants Sat 23-Feb-13 15:07:57

That said, I do feel a great deal of pity for OP's family too. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes right now - they face losing him too. And I wonder, in their heart of hearts, whether they believe his story.

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 15:09:14

I don't puffpants I guess that's all subjective depending on the individuals.

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 15:09:51

^ that's was to your post about result of trial sorry!

ohthedandy Sat 23-Feb-13 15:12:58

I don't think you can increase the suffering of losing a child.

EllieArroway Sat 23-Feb-13 15:32:31

Yes - it does seem strange that OP would throw away his life (metaphorically) in a fit of rage.

But that's what people do, isn't it? Comparatively few people plot & plan a murder, weighing up risks etc. The vast majority of murders happen in the heat of the moment - and a bus driver has as much to lose, relatively speaking, as a wealthy, lauded sportsman does. You're still "throwing your life away" in what you're risking.

So, actually, OP is no less likely to behave in this way than any person killing their partner in a sudden, blind rage - and we all know that this does happen, famous or not. OJ Simpson had god like status in the US and it didn't stop him slaughtering two innocent people.

*Yes, I know he was found not guilty, but I'll stick my neck out and say that I'm pretty bloody certain he was as guilty as sin.

RedPencils Sat 23-Feb-13 18:00:52

It's so unbearably sad for her family. In either scenario she died in a sudden and violent way at the hands of someone she loved and trusted.

Not the same, but I feel sorry for his family too. Six months ago they must have been bursting with pride at his achievements.

flippinada Sat 23-Feb-13 20:45:44

Has any one seen this article?

Pistorious wants to contact Steenkamp family

This quote in particular is actually quite shocking.

"We don't want to put him under pressure but while we were in the car, that is what he said," Arnold told the eNews Channel Africa (eNCA). "The family of Reeva is in his mind all the time and he knows his purpose would be to be part of the family in future."" (my bold)

Yes, I'm sure speaking to the man who killed their daughter will really help them. I'm sure they will ever so grateful he wants to "reach out to them" and be "part of their family".

BigAudioDynamite Sat 23-Feb-13 20:51:08

what the fuck does he think he can say, that they are going to want to hear???!

flippinada Sat 23-Feb-13 21:06:28

I keep typing things and deleting them because words have actually failed me. It's such an appalling thing to say.

BigAudioDynamite Sat 23-Feb-13 21:17:29

Yy, my post in my head was riddled with expletives. What a cunt. The Steenkamp family are very dignified un the face of this

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 21:19:20

Well I think the fact that the Steenkamp's family said that the flowers sent by the Pistorius family meant nothing as they were not to blame along with saying they were disappointed that the Pistorius' s had not contacted them until yesterday, lends itself to perhaps them expecting there to have been attempted contact way before now.

In the last thread people were criticising OP for not having made an apology.

Now he is being criticised for wanting to talk to the Steenkamps.

His uncle seems to be very "in control" of the whole situation and quite overbearing. It does seem like he is trying to force the Steenkamp's to make some sort of public acknowledgement/acceptance of OP's defence. That in itself is very unsympathetic as they are dealing with their own emotions. They shouldn't be made to deal with Pistorius's as well.

They must feel very confused about everything on top of their grief. They just want the truth. I don't know whether they will ever truly get that.

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 21:24:32

Big-money bids are said to be coming in for his story. "Everybody wants to interview him," van Zyl added. "We're not going to do any interviews at this time. We'll sit down with the lawyers and make a decision."

^ I thought that was more disgusting shock.

Surely you would only be thinking about the trial and it would be crass to ever sell a story about that night regardless of the money or where it would go!

WormCanner Sat 23-Feb-13 21:28:01

"Now he is being criticised for wanting to talk to the Steenkamps"

Excuse me, wanting to be "part of the family" is going a bit further than that. Outrageous.

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 21:30:56

That is odd without a doubt.

I am not defending him. I'm on the fence.

ArmchairDetective Sat 23-Feb-13 21:31:01


Just in case you doubted that OP was paranoid about intruders, there were a couple of incidences when he thought there was an intruder in the house. One time it was his washing machine.

OhToBeCleo Sat 23-Feb-13 21:34:47

wiley which part of that article makes you believe that they're "trying to force the Steenkamp's to make some sort of public acknowledgement/acceptance of OP's defence"?

flippinada Sat 23-Feb-13 21:40:56

I interpreted the comment about the flowers as being an empty gesture that meant nothing.

I haven't read anything from the Steenkamps which indicates they would like him or his family to contact them. I think they have been very dignified considering the absolute hell they are going through, and under the media spotlight to boot.

I can't imagine there are any circumstances under which they would want to speak to him and how they thought it was a good idea to publicise this I have no idea.

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 21:41:57

By saying things like they are grieving "with Reeva's family" and that his purpose would to be "part of the family in the future".

The first thing the press did was ask the Steenkamps about contact/forgiveness in the future.

They will now be pressed on the "part of family" quote.

Quote from Reeva Steenkamps father saying if things happened like OP said they could one day forgive him will be passed about by OP's PR firm who are now handling all press.

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 21:44:41

^ that was to cleo

There was a quote somewhere saying that the Steenkamps felt contact had come too late from the Pistorius'. Although I don't know whether that had been put into a particular context by a newspaper (may have been one of the African ones) to make it appear in that way as much if the information has been.

PuffPants Sat 23-Feb-13 21:50:19

I wonder if that article/quote has been mis-transcribed. Surely he meant that OP would have expected to be part of their family, IF things had turned out differently. Not now.

ArmchairDetective Sat 23-Feb-13 21:50:56

I think Reeva Steenkamp's family have been amazingly dignified throughout.

I found it incredibly moving when her father said "there is no hatred in our hearts" and that OP "must be going through things we don't know about it".

flippinada Sat 23-Feb-13 21:57:23

Yes they have Armchair (great choice of name by the way). I don't know if admire is the right word under such circumstances but they sound like gracious, compassionate people.

OhToBeCleo Sat 23-Feb-13 22:00:55


"The family of Reeva is in his mind all the time and he knows his purpose would be to be part of the family in future."

Is anyone surprised that her family are uppermost in his mind? And there's a possibility that the 'be part of the family' could just be a misuse of English (which I don't believe is their first language) - ie he could mean to 'visit/interact/contact' the family.

It is not clear whether the Steenkamp family, who cremated their daughter last week, are ready for such a gesture. - understandably - they're in mourning.

'contact has come too late'? (source unknown) how on earth has he supposed to have made contact up to now?

flippinada Sat 23-Feb-13 22:01:29

I don't see how it could be misinterpreted*PuffPants*. Perhaps those weren't the exact words used by OP but the quote comes directly from his Uncle.

At the very least it is incredibly crass and insensitive.

Wiley the sad thing is, wrt to your second to last post, you're probably right. It will all be about presenting OP in the best possible light.

ArmchairDetective Sat 23-Feb-13 22:03:54

Well I had to name change for the thread really. I do find this case fascinating from a legal perspective though I feel a bit guilty saying that.

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 22:06:35

I do think that the Steenkamps made those original statements whilst they were still in shock and numb from disbelief.

I think they will now naturally be angry and if the Pistorius PR machine continues to make those sort of comments as above they will not be as "compliant" in the media. It is sad that every time a statement is made by OP's side the press will be hounding the Steenkamps for a response sad.

puffpants I wondered the same re:lost in translation type of thin.

flippinada Sat 23-Feb-13 22:10:17

Yeah I understand that Armchair.

The whole thing is really grim.

OhToBeCleo Sat 23-Feb-13 22:11:00

flippinada if he's innocent (of premeditation) then why shouldn't he be shown in the best possible light (and I stress 'possible' ie under the circumstances)?

He's held his hands up to the fact that he did kill her, and his devastation at that and the pain he caused her and her family is well documented. He's not making excuses for his actions - just saying that he made a terrible error in mistaking her for an intruder. Hindsight must be particularly cruel for him.

And of course none of this takes away from the tragedy of loss of a life.

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 22:11:03

flippinada it does seem that the quote about "forgiveness" is everywhere on the web. Not the part where Mr Steenkamp talks about him suffering if he is lying etc.

Also OP's website has apparently had a "mourning" makeover.

Sadly I think there will now be a lot of influence over the media by the big hitting PR firms until trial comes. They will be storing up any "forgiveness" type statements to put forward as a reason not to give a prison sentence for culpable homicide if he gets off of or a deal is done before trial premeditated murder.

Of course that is just a subjective view.

I could just be really cynical.

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 22:14:29

Does anyone know, just out of curiosity why OP is estranged from his father?

ArmchairDetective Sat 23-Feb-13 22:20:54

His parent's divorced when he was 6. Maybe he had little contact until his mother died when he was 15. Sounds like he needed a good father figure around (perhaps that was why the uncle seems to be taking centre stage now)

Manchesterhistorygirl Sat 23-Feb-13 22:21:20

When OP's parents divorced his father took off to run a mine in the other side of the country, so whilst the Pistorius children did have contact it was only really at holidays and then the boys went off to boarding school. Pretoria boys.
It's all in his autobiography.

PuffPants Sat 23-Feb-13 22:23:06

Wiley, I have read quotes of him saying his dad wasn't around much when he was growing up (after his parents' divorce) and that he thinks of him as a "mate" not a parent. Sounds a bit cool rather than estranged.

I was just looking up interviews with OP on youtube and he is clearly bilingual but I expect the family speak Afrikaans mainly. You can tell English is a second language for uncle and I think that would account for the slightly clunky speech at times.

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 22:24:12

Ah ok, maybe the word estranged was more the papers dramatic inclination it was the daily mail after all!

OhToBeCleo Sat 23-Feb-13 22:25:57

Unless there is some convincing forensic evidence that contradicts what we've already heard (like mobile phone records or balistics or something) I find it very hard to understand how the premeditation can be upheld - there must surely be enough 'reasonable doubt' that he intended to kill her? Even if his story is 'hard to understand' (or words to that effect) it doesn't mean that it didn't happen and unless they can provide evidence to the contrary they'll surely have to downgrade the charge?

flippinada Sat 23-Feb-13 22:26:37

I actually wish I didn't know that about the website. That's awful.

Cleo I understand what you're saying, however I will respectfully disagree with you.

My opinion is that, right now, how he feels and what he wants to do is immaterial compared to what her family are going through. Right now he should keep his feelings to himself. And that should mean no updates from his family about how his feelings as well.

The time for talks and forgiveness, should it come to that, is certainly not a scant few days after he has killed their daughter.

currentbuns Sat 23-Feb-13 22:31:51

Presumably nothing could be more valuable to the defence than some sort of indication from Reeva S's family, however vague, that they accept his version of events.
I have to say that her family have conducted themselves with astonishing dignity under the circumstances.

JillJ72 Sat 23-Feb-13 22:33:03

I, like some other posters, am going with OP's version of events until the trial (although am mindful that this may be wrong), and I am interested in his welfare, however now is not the time for his people to court the media, feed. snippets of information etc - inappropriate and in bad taste, IMO.

If there is any reaching out to the Steenkamp family, it should be conducted in private.

A family has lost their daughter, another family has enough to come to terms with behind its own closed doors.

Read what's in the papers with a pinch of salt. Wait for the trial.

jaynebxl Sat 23-Feb-13 23:05:50

Well said Jill.

Attny Sat 23-Feb-13 23:16:10

Is there anyone else who find the Pistorius family fishy especially the brother Carl? Reeva's family on the other hand have been dignified and lack of media "handling"

First, there is the prayer meeting in court (pre planned for sure) for the benefit of the cameras (remember they have an ex Sun journo as a spin adviser) - why not do that in private??

Second, there is the fact that very shortly after the murder, Carl Pistorius, Lawyer and locksmith turn up to look for memory stick with details off shore accounts - something the mag said the bungling Botha should have kept from them using force of law

Third, Carls' tweets from court saying prosecution is lying ...what the hell does he think a prosecution job is...they have to put the case seeking the case for murder if they have sufficient evidence and even the mag who gave him bail kept charge at section 6 premeditated murder ...instead of reducing it to murder

Fourth, the story that was put out early on to the press that he disturbed a burglar which police then refuted and said it must have come from the family

Fifth, early statements by family that he did not belong on police cell with other criminals...what?? he had just killed someone in cold blood...why would he not be held in jail until brought to court o the determination of the charge like anyone else ...would they say that if thr dead woman had been OP's sister killed by her BF in similar circumstances?

None of OP's family know what really happened - they were not there or what forensics and witness statements will say yet - only OP knows..rest will be up to the state to show beyond a reasonable doubt

By the way, the lawyer they hired will represent the devil- he represented apartheid police chief ...but here he was given a gift with bungling Botha...hopefully now he is off the case, state will get its act together for the actual trial and as the mag said state case is not resting on Botha

Oscar looked sombre even when he got bail...for sure his lawyer advised him how he should act in court all along...but he may also know there's other evidence that may damn him when this finally comes to trial. The man is unhinged in my view, even from reading articles before this happened, he had an unhealthy obsession with guns, and not just because he lived in SA. I know some middle class folk in US who admitted having a gun, but it was not common and they were a little embarrassed about it ...and kept it under lock and key. OP on other hand showed of about them, talked about having a machine gun, and kept his gun apparently out on the open next to his designer watch etc. His handling a gun in restaurant that accidentally discharged also underlines this. That is not normal.

This is the bit I really don't get ...when his lawyer said it was pitch black in the room - how come he managed to find his gun in the pitch black, and having passed the bed 2 - 3 times, did not know Reeva was there when collecting it or try to warn her...rather than going to the toilet after getting the gun and then shouting to her from there as he claims...it does it add up any way you look at it

My take is, they argued long and hard, he completely lost it and threatened her perhaps with the gun, she ran to the toilet, locked herself in, he screamed at her to come out, she refused and he shot 3/4 times at the toilet door in furious rage...he knows guns and must have known that may kill her but by then the red mist had descended and he then realized he had actually killed her and broke door down and (this is possible) felt sudden remorse at what he had done to her and to his own life ... imo, that is not culpable homicide but premeditated murder ...story of burglar was made up very quickly either by him or someone he rang as soon as he realized what he did and he is sticking to it

But then let's wait to see if the forensics and witness statements at the trial bear this out ...

Attny Sat 23-Feb-13 23:17:19

fyi, I am not going by what was said in papers...but what was said thus far in bail hearing...

wannaBe Sat 23-Feb-13 23:18:54

wrt why RS didn't scream (assuming she didn't and op's version of events is true), remember he had shouted that there was an intruder, or had shouted for said intruder to get out. She was in the bathroom behind a locked door with no line of sight, therefore, she wouldn't have been aware whether the gunshots had come from either OP or an intruder (remember intruders in SA do come armed) so may not have cried out even when hit so as not to give away her whereabouts.

Attny Sat 23-Feb-13 23:19:26

i meant his version does not add up anyway you look at it

Attny Sat 23-Feb-13 23:22:35

So if he thought there was an intruder and she was still in bed ....why did he wait to go all the way to the bathroom to scream at her ..."Reeva call the police" apparently before he shot rather than try to wake her quickly and quietly when he was gathering the gun by the bedside (apparently in the pitch black?)

WileyRoadRunner Sat 23-Feb-13 23:24:10

she wouldn't have been aware whether the gunshots had come from either OP or an intruder (remember intruders in SA do come armed) so may not have cried out even when hit so as not to give away her whereabouts

Would you really be able to hold a stream of pain in if you were shot?

Someone earlier said he would not have heard her scream over the sound of the gun discharging? Or perhaps the first shot was a fatal one.

Attny Sat 23-Feb-13 23:27:44

Currentbuns...totally totally agree with your view...great for defence if they can get Reeva's family onside...bad press for them if Reeva's family express doubts about OP's version

Wrt not being able to see if Reeva was in bed even with lights off, its unusual to not be able to see anything in a room, moonlight? Street lighting etc, it was not too dark was OP to locate the fan, with the intention of bringing it in plugging in etc. I`m sure when he heard the noise instinct would be to look to see if she is there.

His brother has said that his twitter account was hacked, I must admit I raised my eyebrows a little at that. Have just seen the full statement from Reeva`s father, very painful, dignified but it reads as though they dont believe it was an accident.

wannaBe Sat 23-Feb-13 23:38:26

"Is there anyone else who find the Pistorius family fishy especially the brother Carl? Reeva's family on the other hand have been dignified and lack of media "handling"" The family are not on trial here. I don't know about them but tbh they might be nice people, they might not, but fact is that OP is used to being in the media spotlight and as such his family probably are to an extent as well. but I think that people will seek to judge them because they are defending him/believe him to be innocent. RS' family on the other hand will know all too well that to become involved with the media at all will mean being hounded by them, not just the SA press but the international press. Keeping quiet is by far the best thing they can do in this instance. It's not necessarily about being "dignified" as much as self preservation.

"First, there is the prayer meeting in court (pre planned for sure) for the benefit of the cameras (remember they have an ex Sun journo as a spin adviser) - why not do that in private??" The Afrikaaners are very big on religion and public displays thereof, I don't find that strange on the whole tbh.

"Second, there is the fact that very shortly after the murder, Carl Pistorius, Lawyer and locksmith turn up to look for memory stick with details off shore accounts - something the mag said the bungling Botha should have kept from them using force of law" South African police are notoriously corrupt. if I had money I would be wanting details of it to be kept from them as well not to hide anything but to stop them potentially getting their hands on it. (and yes, bribery and blackmail l and the like is notoriously rife).

"Third, Carls' tweets from court saying prosecution is lying ...what the hell does he think a prosecution job is...they have to put the case seeking the case for murder if they have sufficient evidence and even the mag who gave him bail kept charge at section 6 premeditated murder ...instead of reducing it to murder" I didn't read the tweets, but looking at the evidence given by the investigation it was at best incompetant and for all we know, entirely made up....?

"Fourth, the story that was put out early on to the press that he disturbed a burglar which police then refuted and said it must have come from the family" iirc the story that was put out was exactly that which has been offered as the defense - that he thought it was an intruder which turned out to be his gf. The rest i.e. that it was his gf coming to surprise him for valentines was just made up by the press I think. But the police saying that the story of a supposed intruder hadn't come from them just sounds like more incompetance on their part IMO.

"Fifth, early statements by family that he did not belong on police cell with other criminals...what?? he had just killed someone in cold blood...why would he not be held in jail until brought to court o the determination of the charge like anyone else ...would they say that if thr dead woman had been OP's sister killed by her BF in similar circumstances?" South African jails have to be seen to be believed. Rape and infection with HIV is commonplace, OP would have his prosthetics removed as they would be considered weapons and would have to be in a wheelchair, so being made more vulnerable coupled with the fact he is already so well known would make him more of a victim, and he hasn't actually been found guilty yet, so I think that's a fair point tbh.

Sorry, heres the Statement
"There are only two people who really know what happened and it's Oscar Pistorius and the Lord,"
"It does not matter how much money he has and how good his legal team is, he must live with his conscience if he allows his legal team to lie on his behalf.
"But if he speaks the truth, I can perhaps some day forgive him.
"If it did not happen as he has told it, he must suffer.
"And he will suffer ... only he knows."

Attny Sat 23-Feb-13 23:40:54

yes, again, they should recreate scene...look at bedroom at that time of night, was there street lights or moonlight ...with night vision view...he had not just woken up also. Also, his bed is very low, so even without prosthetics with night vision he could have seen ...he could see enough to find his gun after all

OhToBeCleo Sat 23-Feb-13 23:41:58


OP on other hand showed of about them, talked about having a machine gun, and kept his gun apparently out on the open next to his designer watch etc. His handling a gun in restaurant that accidentally discharged also underlines this. That is not normal

It is absolutely normal for people to have guns in SA and there is NO embarrassment about owning them - no matter what class you come from.

As I've said many times during this discussion - it's about context - we can't apply the logic of what we'd do (in the UK or any other relatively safe country) with how people act/react in SA - I know - I grew up there.

I'm not saying I believe his story beyond a shadow of a doubt. But it is feasible. And until I see further evidence to the contrary I won't believe any hearsay that the tabloids print (especially the 'he said she said' exchanges by the families).

jaynebxl Sat 23-Feb-13 23:47:26

Goodness yes, what a great idea to recreate the scene. I bet they won't have thought of that one to check it all out!

MechanicalTheatre Sat 23-Feb-13 23:47:53

I find the slagging of OP's family pretty off tbh. Even if they are doing stuff in order to sway the judge (and who's to say how they normally act?) frankly if one of my family was going to be banged up in a South African jail I'd be pretty keen on saving them from that and if a public prayer session was going to help, then I'd do it without a thought.

OhToBeCleo Sat 23-Feb-13 23:51:51

and as to the 'public prayer session'....I think it's stooping a little low to suggest that that was pre-planned rather than purely reactive. They couldn't possibly have known/hoped too much about the outcome to have had the forethought to get their PR machine to work that one so quickly. Let's not forget that their lives have also been turned upside down and it was obviously an extremely emotional week for all. I hardly think a group hug (with a little prayer) is out of order.

Attny Sat 23-Feb-13 23:53:19


yes Carl is big on religion I hear, but if you think that prayer meeting wasn't planned for the cameras you are dreaming

So big on religion and so devastated is Carl at brother killing his GF that he turns up asap with locksmith and lawyer at flat to make sure they retrieve a memory stick with off shore accounts to make sure he gets that before police take it (OP must have collected his thoughts enough by then to as for that from his police cell)...really is that the first priority when your family member has just killed someone?

So big on religion is OP, that he shoots to kill without even sight of an intruder - even on his own version he summarily executed someone ...that still makes it murder

MechanicalTheatre Sat 23-Feb-13 23:56:16

And I also think it is very off to judge SA by UK standards. We may baulk at public displays of emotion here, but it is not so in other countries. Looking for answers in behaviour without contextualising is not going to get you very far. And as others have said, it is OP on trial not his family.

OhToBeCleo Sat 23-Feb-13 23:57:35

attny you're jumping to a lot of conclusions there with very little hard evidence. It's all hearsay at this stage (re safe/locksmith etc). And who said that OP 'shot to kill'? How do you know he did't just shoot out of blind fear? None of us know that yet - we weren't there and we don't have all the facts yet.

Attny Sat 23-Feb-13 23:57:50

I think you are being unfair to South Africans...guns are far more prevalent in the US...and how normal is it to apply for machine guns licences as OS did? I'll bet that is NOT normal

Attny Sat 23-Feb-13 23:58:11

OP even

OhToBeCleo Sat 23-Feb-13 23:58:20

What mechanical said

OhToBeCleo Sat 23-Feb-13 23:59:21

attny the dynamics in US and SA are totally different. It's a poor comparison

Attny Sat 23-Feb-13 23:59:28

you shoot to kill if you shoot four times into a tiny space where there is no escape...he had been trained with guns ...he knows how to shoot to kill

wannaBe Sun 24-Feb-13 00:02:58

Agree re keeping of guns being totally normal. When we lived in SA and my dad had one, and yet we lived in a relatively safe place - a diamond mine with very tight security and almost non existent crime rate because of how secure it was. Yet when we travelled down to Cape town the gun went too. in the car. loaded. never did we have to use it but it was just one of those things - I admit I never much liked the idea of it being there.

One day we went to a bbq at some friends and the guy says to me and my dad oh come and have a look here, and he opens up this cabinet and gets out all his guns - lots of them. Pistols, revolvers, various other ones - I don't much recall but he gave them to me to have a look at them - I would have been about twelve I think. shock

Not everyone is that proud of the guns they own but most people do own one wouldn't hesitate to use it.

Yes the gunshot might have drowned out any noise - or the ringing it leaves in your ears afterward

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:04:07

as i said ...I am basing what I said on what was said in trial ...not press hearsay...mag mentioned locksmith, lawyer and Carl collecting memory stick from safe and was astounded bungling Botha did not prevent them taking it ...I am expressing opinion ...just like others are here...I don't like that OP's family hired a sun hack for PR...but as i said it will come out in the trial forensics and witness reports ...the prosecution have done well to get an affadavit from OP to find a lot of holes in...even mag said he found OP's account dubious...but up to trial to decide...he was just deciding on bail

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:04:55

And do you think he had the presence of mind to think through what the outcome would be? Remember in his head the person behind the door could have killed him. There's a 'shoot or be shot' mentality. It's very easy for us to theorise about what was going through his head. Nobody knows how they would react in the face of (perceived) danger.

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:05:59

wouldn't hesitate to use it to summarily execute an unseen burglar then ?

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:07:56

I think if the locksmith was enough of an issue it could have been grounds to prevent bail. It obviously wasn't. And as I said earlier, just because there's doubt about OP's account of events it doesn't mean it didn't happen. The onus is on the prosecution to prove that it didn't - and they've done a rubbish job so far. I look forward to the forensic evidence and I will maintain an open mind until then.

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:08:04

so instead of taking your gun and your GF and leaving your apartment ..you go in pitch black darkness (apparently) to one room where you think said murderous burglar may be ?

MechanicalTheatre Sun 24-Feb-13 00:08:47

Attny, do you know what goes on in South African jails? I'm pretty sure you'd take whatever pr you could in order to keep your lived ones out, guilty or innocent. Jails in the uk are one thing but I wouldn't wish South African jail on my worst enemy.

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:10:36

attny you seem to be missing the point. The level of fear in SA is off the scale - and it's justified. And, sadly, life is cheap there. There are countless murders a day and most go unreported. Everyone knows at least one person in their inner circle whose life has been endangered due to violent crime. In that context his actions aren't unusual.

wannaBe Sun 24-Feb-13 00:12:12

"I think you are being unfair to South Africans...guns are far more prevalent in the US..." have you ever actually been to South Africa? you know, other than as a tourist? Do you actually know any south Africans who have been the victims of violent crime? I have - I grew up there. Let me give you an idea shall I? Ironically from my facebook news feed of yesterday:

Friend one states that a trial of five armed men who robbed, shot and seriously injured her parents on their farm two years ago finally ended with one of the men being found guilty, the other four, the judge said he knew them to be guilty but the police botched the investigation to the extent that there was "reasonable doubt" and thus he had no alternative but to release them. She went on to say that the police still have a gun that was found on the farm that they have never tested, that the judge acknowledged the police investigation had been a shambols but that nothing would now be done - this is it.

Friend two then comments that she knows how friend one feels because when her husband was murdered six years ago they hoped for justice but no-one has ever even been tried let alone convicted.

Friend three (who I know only from name) then says that it's hard but people have to move forward or it just leads to bitterness and resentment, no-one has yet been brought to justice for shooting his brother (he too was seriously injured)..

These are people I know personally. Two of whom I shared rooms with at school (I went to boarding school) so not just friends of friends etc all having this discussion as if it's just an every day thing - oh wait, it is! angry

But you keep believing that the South Africans aren't habitually victims of violent crime and don't need to keep a gun by the bed as a matter of course....

Get real.

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:12:33

so the fear is so off the scale that he left his bedroom balcony doors open....

Sparklegeek Sun 24-Feb-13 00:13:25

Is the locksmith a red herring here? I can't understand why they'd need one - it was OP's safe & he was there!

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:13:25

Most windows/doors have security gates over them so that's not unusual.

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:14:46

being on a remote farmhouse is different from being in a secured guarded compound surrounded by other houses where you feel safe enough to leave your balcony windows open...and again, why would a machine gun be on his wish list ...look at previous articles

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:15:11

being on a remote farmhouse is different from being in a secured guarded compound surrounded by other houses where you feel safe enough to leave your balcony windows open...and again, why would a machine gun be on his wish list ...look at previous articles

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:16:16

wannabe has got it in one.

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:17:06

attny I don't think you're listening. Read wannabe's post

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:18:56

and the point that wannabe didn't mention is how much crime is 'inside'. So even 'gated complexes' aren't 100% safe. Corruption is rife.

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:20:18

I am not sure OP was not already off to police jail when Carl and lawyer and locksmith turned up...all I am saying is their priorities were strange given what had just happened

wannaBe Sun 24-Feb-13 00:21:30

no it isn't different. People on remote farms still have gates on all their doors and big dogs and bars on all their windows. The guards on the secure complexes are notoriously bribeable.

In joburg, you know, the big city, it's not illegal to go through red lights at night because if you stop you're likely (not might possibly, likely) to be carjacked.

If you hit a pedestrian you don't stop because it's probably a set-up to rob you of your money and car and probably run you over on the way.

Fear is relative in so much as that not everyone lives in the same risk category, so if you live in a secure community there's possibly less of a chance that someone will break in. But the risk if someone does is the same - just because the chance is less doesn't mean it's non existent, and if someone does break in you know that it's likely they will rape the female members of the family and murder everyone on the way out. so you might not go to bed thinking "I hope I wake up tomorrow," but if you do wake up and hear something then you will think "shit, it's kill or die."

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:26:44

I am with the Magistrate...the one who is SA and has seen more of SA crime than any on this board...he stipulated despite useless Botham that he found OP's account filled with improbabilities that still need to be explored

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:27:00

useless Botha I mean

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:30:47

Of course he has to say that... he has to be impartial. But do you think that if he thought that OP was lying outright that he'd have given him bail? He has issues with OP's account but he can't rule it out either.

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:31:56

if state produce credible independent witness reports that say lights were on and female screaming was heard from OP's apartment were heard before he fired then he is done for....time will tell

EllieArroway Sun 24-Feb-13 00:33:16

OP's story still doesn't make sense even when you take into account how fearful householders are in SA as opposed to here.

Could be utter crap but the DM are reporting here that the police have told Reeva's family that the cricket bat was used to crush her skull and that those injuries were evident when they viewed her body.

If that's true.......

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:35:44

As Nair said...this was not trial stage...but he saw fit to express a view, primarily he had to decide if he was a flight risk and I have to agree given his fame, he probably is not

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:35:45

Of course time will tell, we all want that. None of us want him released if it's proven that he lied. But remember that the magistrate said that the prosecution could find no evidence to counter OPs version - yet. And yes, time (and forensics) will tell.

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:37:09

Ellie The DM? Seriously?? No comment!!

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:38:29

fundamental IMO here is ...he passed the bed THREE times including to get his gun from bedside and did not see his GF was not there .....or even look to see if she was there in the bed when he heard someone in the bathroom....

EllieArroway Sun 24-Feb-13 00:39:49

But do you think that if he thought that OP was lying outright that he'd have given him bail?

Yes, he would. Deciding whether or not to give him bail had nothing at all to do with whether the magistrate thought he was innocent or guilty - it was all about whether the prosecution had demonstrated that he would be a flight risk, danger to witnesses etc if he was granted bail. They didn't. I think OP is as guilty as sin, personally, but I still think that it was correct that he was given bail in view of the circumstances.

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:39:59

and went off to KILL them

EllieArroway Sun 24-Feb-13 00:42:11

Oh, FFS Cleo - I DID say it could be utter crap - but every now and then they do get some things right. Jeez.

wannaBe Sun 24-Feb-13 00:43:20

ellie that story is bullshit.

Botha confirmed when questioned by the defense that there was no evidence of physical asalt other than the gunshot wounds.

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:47:14

Ellie the tabloids are making cash out of sensationalising this story. Every reputable news source has correspondents in Pretoria. Do you think if this was a legit story they may have covered it too? A quick search finds it nowhere else. Posting this crap just fuels the gossip and who is that helping?

(and if it does subsequently appear I'll gladly eat my words)

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 00:49:35

Botha was an idiot....and no forensic specialist ...he happened to be the one turning up at the scene - mag Nair said as much ....but Mag also said that state case was not going to rest on Botha,..and hopefully the new investigating officer in charge will handle it all professionally ...truth is prosecution can't possibly get all the evidence in short space of time it took for bail hearing

By the way, out of respect for victim, think next thread should not be OP pt 4 but Reeva murder case cont'd

EllieArroway Sun 24-Feb-13 00:51:09

Sorry wannabe, hadn't realised you were there. I bow to your better judgement.

Do you really think that the prosecution presented everything they had at the bail hearing? There was no evidence AT ALL from the post mortem, which had already been done. No forensic evidence either. Did they forget? No, there will be an awful lot that hasn't been brought into the open yet for various reasons but which the police may well have shared with the family.

Yes - it's the DM, so it's probably bull. But I thought it was worth mentioning that that is what's doing the rounds now.

And we're prepared to believe what Botha says when it happens to support your pet view, eh? But it's rubbish when it doesn't? Nothing like a little impartiality wink

EllieArroway Sun 24-Feb-13 00:53:06

Your hypocrisy is astonishing, Cleo. This thread is gossip, for fucks sake. Or did you think you were sitting on a jury?

You people are ludicrous.

wannaBe Sun 24-Feb-13 00:53:18

I'm intrigued at how they even thought they could run with that story tbh.

After all, at what point did he cave in her skull with a cricket bat - before she locked herself in the bathroom and he shot her? in which case how did she get to the bathroom - you know, with a crushed skull? or did OP put her in there and then shoot her through the locked door and then smash the door down with the cricket bat, quickly change the key over to the right side of the door to make it look as if it had been locked from the inside? in which case he would have had to drag/carry an unconscious woman too the bathroom and be certain he'd gain a direct hit to claim the intruder line in which case how would he explain the caved in skull? Or perhaps he caved it in after he'd shot her just for good measure, but again how would he explain it?

Think about it, given the prosecution have confirmed there was no other marks on her, and given she was shot through a locked door, the story of the cricket bat isn't remotely plausible in any way what so ever.

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:54:19

ellie the point is....it's probably best to stick to what we do know rather than what the bin liners tabloids want us to believe.

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 00:57:51

ellie Please enlighten me to the hypocricy?

wannaBe Sun 24-Feb-13 01:00:15

no-one said that botha lied, people said he was incompetant - there was a difference.

But it makes no sense what so ever that if RS had had her skull crushed by a cricket bat that this wouldn't have been submitted as evidence in order to justify the charges brought. This bail hearing has gone on for four days. and the focus of it has been the gun, the bullets (one of which the investigation failed to find - it was located by the defense) hmm the cricket bat (which was used to smash down the bathroom door) the steroids (which were a legal herbal supplement). Do you honestly think that if there was evidence of other physical asalt this wouldn't have been presented to back up the charge of premeditated murder? honestly?

GothAnneGeddes Sun 24-Feb-13 01:09:58

Come off it, it the cricket bat was true, that would be the numero uno piece of evidence to back up the prosecution's story. Virtually no other piece of evidence would be required, there is absolutely no way they'd hold that back for the trial.

BigAudioDynamite Sun 24-Feb-13 01:15:45

I am not commented on wether OP used the cricket bat on Reeva; but I wanted to point out that it is possible to have a fractured skull and still walk around...without being too graphic, if the damage isn't immediately lethal then it can take time to manifest.

claig Sun 24-Feb-13 01:18:54

'Last week the prosecution did not mention any details about the bat and the role they believe it played in Reeva’s death, opting not to disclose their case against Pistorius. But to secure bail, Pistorius’s legal team had to detail his defence, which included why he had a blood-spattered cricket bat in his possession on the fatal night.'


wannaBe Sun 24-Feb-13 01:19:45

be that as it may, if the evidence was there it would have been presented. The investigating officer was asked specifically whether there was evidence of physical asalt and he said no. Now, we know he is incompetant, I don't think that's in dispute, however lying about a physical asalt would almost certainly mean that couldn't be presented as evidence in the trial - you can't say "no your honour, there wasn't a physical asalt," and then show up with claims of a fractured skull several months down the track - the autopsy had been carried out by the time the evidence had been presented so this isn't something new that could have come to light like the bolistic reports or phorensic investigations of the scene.

wannaBe Sun 24-Feb-13 01:27:24

good god. hmm the daily mail should be shut down for posting blatant crap like that. Actually the daily mail should just be shut down, but that's perhaps a discussion for another thread... wink

Do people genuinely believe that the prosecution would withhold the most vital, most damning piece of evidence of all even though not presenting it could have resulted in the murder charge being reduced? Just so they had something juicy to present in the trial? really?

claig Sun 24-Feb-13 01:31:04

From the Mail article, a quote from US lawyer Alan Dershowitz

I am certain that he instructed his lawyers to get him out on bail now, even if that meant compromising his longer-term chances of freedom. The best proof of that is the unusual affidavit he signed, laying out his defence in some detail.

He was not required to do that, but I’m certain his lawyer told him that he would increase his chances of getting bail if he put forward a plausible defence. However, there are great risks in submitting an affidavit before all the forensic evidence is in.

Scientific evaluation of the crime scene may show inconsistencies with the defence proffered in the affidavit. That would hurt Pistorius further down the line.


Most lawyers would not have submitted such an affidavit. But the defence attorney knows more than I what is in the public record and may have made the right decision.

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 07:42:08

Various media reports this morning ....reporting that Carl Pistorius also facing (lesser) murder charge of killing female biker while drunk driving and due to go on trial ...could carry sentence of up to 15 years...what a family...so religious...so reckless ....perhaps he and his time will spend time together ...great for lawyers....wealthy clients in a great deal of trouble

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 07:43:34

he and his brother will spend time together ...sorry...so two innocent women have lost their lives to these two idiots

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 07:47:25


TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sun 24-Feb-13 07:56:30

I was surprised to hear about Carl on the radio too.

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 08:06:12

ok heard now Carl's lawyer says he was not drunk...so charge is culpable homicide - reckless (but not drunk) driving but his lawyer has confirmed he's facing charge...

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 08:08:24

another journo who spent 4 days with Oscar said he drove his car at 150 mph....

OhToBeCleo Sun 24-Feb-13 08:41:58


are you resorting to further hearsay now to tarnish the reputation of a whole family? It's Oscar that we're discussing here. What his brother has done/not done is irrelevant.

Attny Sun 24-Feb-13 09:01:24

No it is NOT hearsay...charge against Carl confirmed by his lawyer to the BBC..his brother has been prominent in media in his tweeting prosecuting are lying, in his turning up at flat to grab memory stick. I am sick of outpouring of sympathy for Oscar and his family and reports on how religious they are, particularly Oscar, rather than outpouring of sympathy for Reeva's family. In my view, it's all down to cult of celebrity.

Coming back to Oscar, South African writer on BBC this morning, said strongest point for him, was prosecution point that even if you give Oscar benefit of the doubt and believed his version thought it was an unseen intruder locked in his small toilet...gunning the unseen intruder down in cold blood still would be premeditated murder...

lowercase Sun 24-Feb-13 09:02:04

Its relevant on this thread.