Gay parents the new norm?

(190 Posts)
yummymummy345 Tue 19-Feb-13 21:04:52

Is it just me? but I do not entirely relish the idea of same sex couples being parents and thus becoming the norm. Watching Channel 4 news, they are highlighting books aimed at children with same sex couples instead of the traditional man/woman combo. I'm really not trying to offend anyone but I think men and women are generally different and so offer different things to a child, can 2 women or 2 men offer the same? I know 2 women/men would love that child just as much but is it all about love and security and thats it?

Gay marriage in the news also is looking to change our culture to make it the norm although I dont understand why civl partnership which affords the same rights? is not enough? A church marriage is for 2 people to procreate (if possible) so why does this all need to be changed?

I am interested on peoples opinions these are obviously just mine but would like to add I am not religious or homophobic .

Patchouli Tue 19-Feb-13 21:07:34

Crikey are we on the 345th yummymummy already?!

Well given that gay people are a minority it won't become the norm any time soon.
And surely all parents are different anyway. What is this "same" that gay couples cannot live up to?

Greythorne Tue 19-Feb-13 21:08:45

where's yummymummy342? i thought she always wrote good posts about scones and whether the jam goes on first or the clotted cream?

I think men and women are generally different

Startling insight of the year. hmm

A church marriage is for 2 people to procreate

I know it's been a long time since I got invited to a wedding, but I don't remember couples mating in the aisle.....

But you're not homophobic, so that's all fine.

Why do you think gay people should have fewer rights than straight people? My DS is gay and religious (I'm neither). Why should he not be allowed a religious ceremony like the other members of his church?

Also, do you think that single parents are somewhat inferior in the family stakes too?

AmandinePoulain Tue 19-Feb-13 21:09:57

It always surprises me, the number of people who say "I'm not homophobic/racist but..." and then follow it with something homophobic or racist hmm

motherinferior Tue 19-Feb-13 21:11:23

Sweetie, you are homophobic.

And you are offending lots and lots and lots of people. I happen to live (unmarried) with a man and I'm offended, for starters.

BIWI Tue 19-Feb-13 21:12:46

Do you have any idea of the definition of homophobic?

hermioneweasley Tue 19-Feb-13 21:13:44

Yes, when I take DS to school I cannot move for the same sex parenting families. Heterosexual couples are a clear minority.

I would quote all the research that shows whatever success indices you wish to use (career, money, self reported happiness) the hidden of gay couples come off better than children of hetero couples, but I can't be bothered.

Because you ARE homophobic. Thinking that gay couples are not as good as straight is homophobic discrimination.

HTH.

sittinginthesun Tue 19-Feb-13 21:13:46

You do realise you are homophobic, don't you?

BIWI Tue 19-Feb-13 21:14:01

Christ, I did a search of your name, fully expecting to see that you were a new poster, but you aren't. angry

Do you have any bloody idea of how stupid and offensive your OP is?

sittinginthesun Tue 19-Feb-13 21:15:10

BIWI, I did exactly the same thing.

OP, this is not going to go well.

HappyJustToBe Tue 19-Feb-13 21:16:11

What SPB said.

OP, please explain to us what exactly you think "the norm" means?

GoldenGreen Tue 19-Feb-13 21:18:27

I think you know perfectly well it isn't just you - plenty of homophobia around.

And I doubt very much you are actually interested in other people's opinions.

But perhaps this, from a man brought up by two women, might help a little.

motherinferior Tue 19-Feb-13 21:18:48

and actually yes, it is all about love and security. Children who are actively chosen are rather more likely to be given the love and security they need than those conceived in a random heteroshag, surely?

(I have at least one child conceived in a random heteroshag, btw. She's doing fine. But I think probably my nephews, with their lesbian parents, are even better equipped with love and security, in all honesty.)

yummymummy345 Tue 19-Feb-13 21:19:08

A lot of yummy mummies out there...... !
SPB Im not sure its relevant that we are talking about a minority and so not beccoming the norm, give another few years and does appear it will be the norm.

All parents are different I appreciate that, but men and women generally have different qualities or do you disagree?

I think that given the state of some people who have children ( Jeremy Kyle show style) I don't see how two loving same sex parents can be something that people would have a problem with. Sexuality has no baring on how good a parent someone will be.

BIWI Tue 19-Feb-13 21:19:34

I'm really not trying to offend anyone but I think men and women are generally different and so offer different things to a child, can 2 women or 2 men offer the same? I know 2 women/men would love that child just as much but is it all about love and security and thats it?

Yes, men and women are biologically different. And so what difference does that make? Yes, two women or two men would love the child just as much. Yes, it's about love and security. What the fucking else do you want it to be about?

Gay marriage in the news also is looking to change our culture to make it the norm although I dont understand why civl partnership which affords the same rights? is not enough?

Well evidently not, if gay people would like to be married rather than just have a civil partnership. Or do you not think that their views and feelings matter in this regard?

A church marriage is for 2 people to procreate (if possible) so why does this all need to be changed? You don't need to copulate to procreate though. And just because the church pronounces that this is what marriage is about does not have to mean what we as a modern society decide marriage is all about.

I am interested on peoples opinions these are obviously just mine but would like to add I am not religious or homophobic Do you know, if you had said you were religious, I might have given you a teensy little bit more consideration, seeing as we would have had to deal with that troublesome Bible thingymajig. But if you have no religious convictions, then why on earth would you be troubled about the idea of two people who love each other wanting to be married?

In which case, the only conclusion is that you are hugely prejudiced and homophobic.

well gay people are only 10 percentof the population so I think try are safefrom thembexoming the'norm'. anyway if you need 2 parents one male and one femaleti raise a child you should be much more concerned about sticker parents! shock

HappyJustToBe Tue 19-Feb-13 21:21:10

Are you confusing the norm and normal?

Because it may not be the norm but it is normal whether homophobes view it that way or not.

So what evidence do you have that the number of gay people is increasing?
Or do we define 'norm' differently?
If you mean normalised / no longer worthy of comment then maybe. I don't think it will be in my lifetime though. Hopefully the dcs'.
My grandarenrs would have been taken aback by a mixed race relstiiship. Things change.

hermioneweasley Tue 19-Feb-13 21:23:20

Yummy, despite being able to count to 345 you are not very good at maths. Gayers are a small minority and it's more difficult to have kids. Therefore gay parents are unlikely to "be the norm in a few years" unless all hetties stop having kids right now.

You are ridiculous.

Chubfuddler Tue 19-Feb-13 21:23:21

Are you the sort of person why posts things on FB along the lines of " when I was a lad you went to prison for homosexuality, the way we are going soon it will be compulsory" and thinks they are wonderfully incisive and original?

You are homophobic BTW.

exexpat Tue 19-Feb-13 21:23:48

You say give it another few years and it will become the norm - are you somehow arguing that allowing gay marriage is going to turn the heterosexual majority gay? Because personally, the fact that I might be allowed to marry another woman hasn't made me start fancying one. Or will it suddenly all change the moment the bill is passed?

why do I bother posting from phone sad. single is what I was saying at the end there if you can figure out the rest

Flossiechops Tue 19-Feb-13 21:23:56

greythorne it's jam first definitely. Op, seriously?? You need to ask this shit? In 2013?

yummymummy345 Tue 19-Feb-13 21:23:57

Ah so just me then!

And what does your comment about yummy mummies mean? Because if were having a pop it's worth noting there are a lot of homophobic idiots out there too

BIWI Tue 19-Feb-13 21:24:23

<chortles>

In my outrage, I hadn't even noticed the stupid use of 'norm'!

hermioneweasley Tue 19-Feb-13 21:24:25

Arf at chubfudder.

motherinferior Tue 19-Feb-13 21:24:28

No, I don't agree that children need a nuclear family of a male and female parent. I don't think that men and women have intrinsic qualities that they need to contribute to raise children effectively.

And if more same sex parents rock up at the school gates, no, I have no fucking problem with that whatsoever.

exexpat Tue 19-Feb-13 21:25:16

Yummymummy - you might find this graph educational.

motherinferior Tue 19-Feb-13 21:25:28

If 'it' becomes 'the norm', by which presumably you mean more people acknowledge and act on same-sex attraction, so bloody what?

Exexpat I was wondering if they'd start doing forced gay marriage, you know, quotas or some such. Nows the time to find a female friend who irritates you least and agree to marry before the government make you.

But...we're not all suddenly going to turn gay. So it will never be the 'norm'. Unless you mean that eventually, same sex couples raising children won't be any big deal. In which case, yes, I certainly hope so.

noisytoys Tue 19-Feb-13 21:25:53

Gay parents aren't a new thing. I am 25. My DM had been in a lesbian relationship with the same woman for 23 years. YABU and very homophobic

hermioneweasley Tue 19-Feb-13 21:26:31

Yummy, don't worry, it's not just you that thinks homosexuality is toxic, wrong, disgusting and lesser - there are plenty of homophobes to keep you company. Just not on this thread apparently.

Chubfuddler Tue 19-Feb-13 21:28:00

LOL exexpat

OpheliasWeepingWillow Tue 19-Feb-13 21:28:10

So you're not homophobic huh?

Massive eyebrow raising here. Well done.

hermioneweasley Tue 19-Feb-13 21:28:39

Exexpat - there is also a graph which shows how many hetero marriages have broken down due to being in the proximity of a stable gay relationship. (clue- it's 0)

exexpat Tue 19-Feb-13 21:30:59

SBP - ah, is that how it's going to work? I have a few female single-parent friends, I'm sure one of them might be willing to enter into a marriage of convenience with me. She might draw the line at putting up with my secret heterosexual obsessing over Benedict Cumberbatch, though.

I just can't believe people still think that gay is all someone is. Who someone goes home too is up to them. Why does it have to be called gay marriage. Surely two people getting married is just marriage? No one says I'm
Going to a straight wedding. Children are screwed up from bad up bringings, parents who didnt care, being abused, starved, unloved abandonned etc none of which is exclusive to gay or straight parents. If a child is loved, cared for fed clothed and supported they will be just fine!!!

MajaBiene Tue 19-Feb-13 21:32:24

Now we have gay marriage, there will be lots of gay babies and they will outbreed us shock

Maryz Tue 19-Feb-13 21:33:17

ODFONTAD.

It isn't the norm. As in the average. But it is perfectly normal. Gay people have always had children.

Just in the bad old days they had to pretend they weren't gay hmm.

flippinada Tue 19-Feb-13 21:34:48

So what if it does become the "norm". Can't bring myself to get worked up about this but then I'm not a mealy mouthed bigot.

What are all these new acronyms people are throwing around?
Oh and BAGSY JENNIFER ANISTON

maja quick hide the hand bags grin

AmandinePoulain Tue 19-Feb-13 21:36:03

What if all these gay parents at the school gates spread the gay around? Will no one think of the children? hmm

chickensarmpit Tue 19-Feb-13 21:36:34

Am I the only person to think children are not a right? They aren't fucking handbags and I'm finding a lot of people using them like some sort of fashion accessory.

BIWI Tue 19-Feb-13 21:36:57

YummyMummy345

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm also going to assume that you have young children (you don't have a profile, so I have no reason to assume otherwise).

Just imagine that your lovely son, or your lovely daughter tells you, age 17, that they are gay and that they have a boyfriend/girlfriend.

Fastforward a few years. They have their degree, and they are settled in a good job. (They have achieved what you always wanted for them, in other words.)

They come home one day, with their partner, and tell you that they are getting married.

Surely you would rejoice? (I'm assuming, for the sake of the story here, that you like them, by the way!)

Why, then, would they not be allowed to marry in the same way that a heterosexual couple wouldn't marry?

There are various different ways in which they can produce their own children.

Skullnbones Tue 19-Feb-13 21:39:40

You are homophobic, I suggest you find a rock and crawl under it, you may find similar folk there who share your views!

hermioneweasley Tue 19-Feb-13 21:41:42

Chickensarmpit - can you clarify your post. Who are you suggesting are having kids as accessories?

HotheadPaisan Tue 19-Feb-13 21:43:02

We're all the rage. Not keen on handbags though so I had kids instead.

I do not entirely relish a parenting forum where parents from a minority group are made to feel lesser and that they shouldn't have kids.

MajaBiene Tue 19-Feb-13 21:43:11

Bollocks. No one has children as an accessory - it's a basic biological drive to want to have kids, many/most people do, and no-one does it for purely selfless reasons.

LizzieVereker Tue 19-Feb-13 21:43:21

Read this. It might help you allay your fears about "the gays".

Because the majority of children brought up by same sex parents are successful and well adjusted, perhaps because they are resilient, having had to deal with the prejudices of people who may or may not realise they are homophobic. hmm

yummymummy345 Tue 19-Feb-13 21:44:18

OK for the record I dont think any less of Gay people/couples. Is it a right to have a child (thats a whole different topic) Just thinking from the childs perspective are they getting an all round upbringing.

So you all agree that they do, Im not sure I entirey agree -apologies about that,- each to their own.

I didnt mean that soon everyone will be in gay couples raising children I meant the norm as in accepted part of our culture as much as a hetrosexual couple.

chickensarmpit Tue 19-Feb-13 21:45:13

Lots of people. Straight, gay etc.. I don't like the idea that having children is some sort of right.

MajaBiene Tue 19-Feb-13 21:45:30

Do children of single parents get an all round upbringing?

Chubfuddler Tue 19-Feb-13 21:46:26

It's not a right, but it's certainly not something you should be prevented from doing due to your sexual orientation, or compelled to deny your true sexual orientation to achieve.

BIWI Tue 19-Feb-13 21:47:17

WTF is an 'all round upbringing'?

You really need to engage brain, OP, and explain a little bit more about what your problem is/issues are.

BIWI, you are so reasonable. This post is just about the last straw in a month of shitty homophobic incidents, and I'm almost in tears of rage and frustration. Thank you for your eloquence.

Chubfuddler Tue 19-Feb-13 21:48:04

If you don't think any less of gay couples why you see normalisation of gay couples and parents as a bad thing? Have you actually challenged yourself on this issue?

sittinginthesun Tue 19-Feb-13 21:48:07

Not a right, but a basic human urge, surely? That applies whether you are straight, gay, whatever.

OP, do you know any gay couple, with or without children? What are you so scared of?

hermioneweasley Tue 19-Feb-13 21:48:49

Yummy, you are contradicting yourself. You say you don't think any less of gay couples, but it worries you that it will one day be acceptable to be gay parents. It logically follows the you believe gay parents are deficient and therefore you are not ok with it.

You have decided in your little homophobic head that it must be damaging for kids when all the evidence is quite the contrary. The evidence is compelling or reproductive medicine clinics wouldn't treat gay couples as they have an ethical and moral obligation to the potential children.

yummymummy345 Tue 19-Feb-13 21:49:49

What do you think MajaBeine? Why bring single parents into this? That is generally not a choice i.e having children and rasing them alone.

Chubfuddler Tue 19-Feb-13 21:51:05

Actually lots of people choose to be single parents. Some of them are even gay single parents.

tribpot Tue 19-Feb-13 21:51:57

Ahhhh, so if only these pesky gays would choose to be straight? confused Seriously ?

BIWI Tue 19-Feb-13 21:52:38

Agent - only reasonable on the outside wink

Can I just clarify that my "hide the hand bags " comment ( it was a jome) was aimed a response about all the gay babies to follow. It by no means was any reference to children being accessories!!

Jome)? Joke [auto correct fail ]

HotheadPaisan Tue 19-Feb-13 21:54:22

I don't understand this desire to sit around pontificating about my life and kids as some sort of intellectual exercise. I use that term loosely obv. What right do you have to do that?

ImNotDrunkIJustCantType Tue 19-Feb-13 21:54:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MajaBiene Tue 19-Feb-13 21:54:38

Because yummymummy you said children need a male and a female parent to have a rounded upbringing, and single parents are generally only of one gender.

So single parents by choice are also a problem for you?

NomNomDePlumPudding Tue 19-Feb-13 21:54:46

the dds are not fashion accessories? they'll be devastated.

(chickensarmpit hmm)

MooncupGoddess Tue 19-Feb-13 21:54:58

What actual risks do you see in gay people bringing up children, yummymummy? Can you explain the actual problem here, as you see it?

hermioneweasley Tue 19-Feb-13 21:55:03

My accessories (bags, shoes, scarves) are lovely- they sit quietly in cupboards until I decide I need them and then only ever give with no thought for themselves. My children on the other hand.....

ImNotDrunkIJustCantType Tue 19-Feb-13 21:56:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maryz Tue 19-Feb-13 21:56:50

SPB, if you assume that generally O stands for Off and F stands for Fuck, you can often understand the new acronyms.

TAD is "there's a dear" which is, obviously, a term of affection.

Bluegrass Tue 19-Feb-13 21:58:39

Perhaps we could slot "the gays" into a long list of people we don't think should be allowed to have children:

People on benefits
People who use the word "cuppa"
People who recline during short haul flights...

Come on OP, need a little help here!

yummymummy345 Tue 19-Feb-13 21:59:49

gay people/couples I do not have an issue with.

I am not entirely convinced that gay parents are the best for the child and to be honest there is nothing that I have seen or heard to suggest they would be any worse or better think i'm just tradionalist to be honest.

I am throwing out my opinion, one person about parenting not gay people/couples.

MajaBiene Tue 19-Feb-13 22:01:19

So, despite having no evidence that they are better or worse, you think gay couples (and single parents ^by choice^) shouldn't be having children?

chickensarmpit Tue 19-Feb-13 22:01:21

@ sitting, I think everyone has that urge to become a parent at some point in their lives. But I don't automatically thinks that makes it your right to have a child. But that's easy for me to say, I have kids. If the kids are loved, who cares who has them.

reallyyummymummy Tue 19-Feb-13 22:03:32

Agree with childrensarmpit. There are some people who use children as an accessory. DH and I know a couple like this. They have two children and have hardly spent a day in their life with them.

Is it really homophobic to say it is not the same as in a hetero couple? It has been established that there are quite big differences between female and males so maybe there will be a difference in how the children will be brought up and how they fare in comparison to the rest of the world. No-one knows if it is better or worse because there are no grown up children yet (are there?)

I don't object to children learning about tolerance but I do object to them being taught about things that aren't relevant to them. Both my DCs have been taught that a child can have two mummies or two daddies at school and that this is normal. I don't know any homosexual couples who have a child. It is still really quite rare. Children are naturally tolerant and I feel being actively taught something turns it into a big deal that it is not. Why can't the message just be simplified to "being kind to everyone and treat everyone equally"?

BIWI Tue 19-Feb-13 22:04:01

I am not entirely convinced that gay parents are the best for the child and to be honest there is nothing that I have seen or heard to suggest they would be any worse or better think i'm just tradionalist to be honest.

So why does this lead you to think that gay people can't be good parents? How about actually challenging your own thinking? If there's nothing you have seen to suggest any better or worse, then why not just assume better?

I am throwing out my opinion, one person about parenting not gay people/couples.

This is a stupid assertion. Of course you are criticising gay people.

HotheadPaisan Tue 19-Feb-13 22:04:18

On a parenting site, with lots of lesbian parents who use the site, it's rude and offensive.

Susan Golombok has done lots of research into lesbian parent households, outcomes are comparable with those for children from heterosexual parent households.

ScramblyEgg Tue 19-Feb-13 22:05:33

So basically, yummymummy, you think that gay couples shouldn't have children because you just kind of don't like the idea of it?

Snusmumriken Tue 19-Feb-13 22:05:48

Good parents are the best parents. Good parents tend not to be homophobic, in my humble opinion.

MooncupGoddess Tue 19-Feb-13 22:06:37

"It has been established that there are quite big differences between female and males" - really? Can you link to any reliable studies on this?

And there are lots of adults who grew up with same-sex parents... the studies on them show no differences with those who grew up with heterosexual parents.

BIWI Tue 19-Feb-13 22:06:50

Are you sockpuppeting now?

Is it really homophobic to say it is not the same as in a hetero couple? It has been established that there are quite big differences between female and males so maybe there will be a difference in how the children will be brought up and how they fare in comparison to the rest of the world.

Erm, yes - I think this is pretty homophobic. People are different. All men aren't the same. All women aren't the same.

No-one knows if it is better or worse because there are no grown up children yet (are there?)

You really, seriously, think that there aren't people who have been brought up by gay parents?

HotheadPaisan Tue 19-Feb-13 22:07:11

Golombok's research spans 30 years, she actually discontiued it as there was nothing to find other than everything being perfectly fine.

And why shouldn't your children be taught about my children's family? Mine are taught about yours.

Foggles Tue 19-Feb-13 22:07:13

Are you aware that there are many, many "traditional" couples who are shit parents?

Bluegrass Tue 19-Feb-13 22:09:43

Surely the minute you consider some of the godawful people who are perfectly able to have children, drag them up, teach them nothing, be unsupportive awful role models etc etc and then you look at a loving stable couple, who will bring up their children to feel loved secure and wanted, if you then say "well I don't think that second couple should be allowed to have any kids because they're [whisper it] G.A.Y" ...well wouldn't you just feel a prize twat for even thinking that for even a moment?

sittinginthesun Tue 19-Feb-13 22:10:24

Everything BIWI said. Again. smile

ledkr Tue 19-Feb-13 22:11:37

So yummy. How about heterosexual couples who marry when they are past child bearing years or who already know they are infertile?
Also this. I assess people to adopt. We very frequently approve same sex couples.
We never approve bigots!

nancy75 Tue 19-Feb-13 22:13:27

Op can I ask why do you care?
Nobody is going to make your children live with gay parents,
Nobody is going to make you have gay parents
When gay marriage is made legal you won't be forced to get married to a gay person, so, basically none of these things make any difference to your life, why do you care?

Bluegrass Tue 19-Feb-13 22:13:47

"It has been established that there are quite big differences between female and males"

I think the difference actually comes in varying sizes from big to underwhelming.

Booyhoo Tue 19-Feb-13 22:13:48

" I do not entirely relish the idea of same sex couples being parents and thus becoming the norm"

well, why the fuck not? confused

you're not one of those vile homophobes are you?

StuffezLaBouche Tue 19-Feb-13 22:16:38

Do you actually know any gay people, OP? Any gay couples? Or are your judgements based on the distorted stereotypes we see on tv so often? (gay men being vain, mincing and promiscuous, etc)
I worked with a gay couple who fostered a boy from the worst of backgrounds. I.cannot begin to express the world of.good theyve done.for.that boy.
Crap typing i know.

whethergirl Tue 19-Feb-13 22:19:39

I am a single parent, not by choice, but offended that you would think my child is having an inferior upbringing. I'm by no means the best parent in the world, but there are some children who are worse off with two parents aroud. Also, research shows that children are more likely to suffer from growing up in household with two parents that have a bad relationship. Every situation is different, no doubt some single parents do a shit job too. Same with gay couples, some will be great parents and some won't.

reallyyummymummy how do you know that homosexual awareness in schools is not relevant to the children? How do you know your children are not gay?

Spoonful Tue 19-Feb-13 22:22:32

We might actually all turn gay you know.

I had two friends growing up. One had a mother who was a lesbian, the other had a mother who later decided she was also a lesbian. They both conceived my friends in heterosexual marriages, then -permanently- changed their minds. Both still lesbians now.

There is time for all of us yet.

Devora Tue 19-Feb-13 22:24:19

Today I took my children to the Alternative Fairytales, Alternative Families event that was filmed for the Channel 4 news feature on gay parents. It was a bit chaotic, a bit too hot, a bit straight outta Stoke Newington, but I can't tell you how lovely it was for my kids (especially the older one) to be in a hall full of other children with two mums or two dads. (Or, in the case of my niece who was also there, three dads - and her parents are heterosexual.) They very very rarely meet other children in their situation, so OP can rest assured that we are unlikely to be 'the new normal' anytime soon.

I came home reflecting on how very much I did that for the kids, not for me. Motherhood has almost obliterated my lesbian identity as something distinctive - I am just so much like every other knackered working mother I know. I never go out in the evenings and most nights the only female to share my bed is 3 years old. Me and dp talk about childcare arrangements, dental appointments, sleep habits and how one of these days we must start trying to get a bit of a social life back, or even just time to talk to each other about anything other than the children.

And then threads like this remind me how some people still do see lesbian and gay people as very, very different. So of course there must be something imbalanced in our parenting, or our motives (children as lifestyle accessory? Don't make me laugh - before children I used to live in Kensington, go to the latest restaurants and shop in Harvey Nichols. Now I live in the burbs, buy the kids clothes in H&M - almost never buy clothes for myself - and go to the Wimpy occasionally.)

We're on the right side of history, though. I don't know what the parents at the school gate say behind my back, but they've been unfailingly courteous and friendly to my face. And MN always demonstrates how most people are fair and decent and the new 'common sense' is that the quality of your parenting bears little relation to your sexual orientation.

yummymummy345 Tue 19-Feb-13 22:31:21

For the record my mum is a single parent I had a wonderful upbringing.

I have not said gay couples should not have children, I am putting a view out there that I am not sure it s the best thing for the child.

However, I am genuinely heartened that a child who has been fostered has had a massive turnaround by a gay couple. Perhaps rather than stating I am homophobic/shit parent/bigot etc stories like this will challenge peoples viewpoints like mine and serve a better purpose?

Booyhoo Tue 19-Feb-13 22:32:50

OP

would you have a problem with a single gay person raising a child?

HotheadPaisan Tue 19-Feb-13 22:34:32

But the research says it's fine, as good as, comparable etc, not sure what more evidence you need.

nancy75 Tue 19-Feb-13 22:37:42

How many feel good stories do you need to change your mind op?
I would have thought it reasonably obvious that it's better for a child to live in a loving home with any variety of parent than to be in care?

BIWI Tue 19-Feb-13 22:39:45

"I have not said gay couples should not have children, I am putting a view out there that I am not sure it s the best thing for the child. "

Based on what, OP?

MajaBiene Tue 19-Feb-13 22:41:38

Maybe you would have been better off raised by a male/female couple then OP?

so you start a thread based on no evidence that will hurt people just because you fancied it?

There's a child in dd's school who has two mums.

I've told dd to stay away from her because, ya know, if one parent hasn't got a todger who the fuck knows what way she'll turn out?!

it is not the job of the world to educate you op. do some research rather than start offensive threads

yummymummy345 Tue 19-Feb-13 23:01:35

Really no offence intended.

opinions sought really rather than an education HHT.

And yes it is absolutely common sense that a fostered child would do amzingly well raised by 2 parents who cared and loved (gay or straight) rather than parents who didnt give a shit. (I guess there is nothing else other than love and security) So perhaps this answers my op

Booyhoo Tue 19-Feb-13 23:04:43

op do you have a problem with a single gay person raising a child/children?

Tortington Tue 19-Feb-13 23:06:52

really dont understand why sexually has anything to do with giving a child a safe secure loving home.

honest to betsy don't understand the correlation.

yummymummy345 Tue 19-Feb-13 23:18:48

Booyhoo As I say my mum was a single parent, I have no qualms surrounding my upbringing but for anyone to make that choice- I am not sure it is in the best interests of the child -gay or straight. You asked my opinion... So chastise me.

HotheadPaisan Tue 19-Feb-13 23:21:50

Do you not think we thought a lot about the interests of any children we might conceive? Researched, talked to others, weighed up all the options, endlessly. Like a lot of people before having kids I'd have thought.

Booyhoo Tue 19-Feb-13 23:23:45

so you have no problem with a gay person parenting aslong as they aren't doing it with the support of a loving partner?

do you think single gay parents do a better or worse job at raising children than gay parents who raise children together in a 2 parent family?

BIWI Tue 19-Feb-13 23:29:54

"I am not sure it is in the best interests of the child -gay or straight. You asked my opinion... So chastise me."

I'm not interested in chastising you. But I do want to know on what basis you form this opinion. Although you keep ignoring this ... hmm

PelvicFloorClenchReminder Tue 19-Feb-13 23:32:17

Oh OP, you bonus feature.

hmm

SchnitzelVonKrumm Tue 19-Feb-13 23:35:15

What are you on about?

SchnitzelVonKrumm Tue 19-Feb-13 23:36:04

OP I mean

TheYamiOfYawn Tue 19-Feb-13 23:36:54

OP, do you really think that same-sex couples raising children together is some new-fangled thing? It's been going on for as long as different-sex parenting.

You have explained that by "norm" you mean "accepted part of our culture". Wouldn't it be lovely if all families felt that they are an accepted part of our culture, given that the different types of family exist at present and will continue to anyway? Why would you want families to be stigmatised?

Your OP focuses on church marriage, but you have not mentioned that same sex couples are not able to have civil marriage ceremonies either. Are these acceptable to you?

KobayashiMaru Tue 19-Feb-13 23:45:58

I'm not sure its in the best interests of children to be raised by bigoted idiots, but hey, no-one got to publicly debate whether you could pop a few out OP, did they? hmm

Valpollicella Tue 19-Feb-13 23:50:23

A child growing up with parents, regardless of gender and sexual orientation, who love and cherish and care for them.

What the actual fuck is detrimental to the best interests of the child in that situation OP? Seriously?

Or as someone else has said up thread, what if a woman who is a lesbian has a child as a single parent? Is that 'not in the best interests of the child'? What happens then? Is that ok with you and your bigoted views

Who would deny any child a safe and loving childhood, regardless of who their parent were?

hmm

<sits on hands to not break out the flowery fuck off message>

yummymummy345 Tue 19-Feb-13 23:55:58

Blimey you would have had me sterilised! the terribly bigoted idiotic person I am!

Cor imagine if we all thought the same then you wouldn't have anyone to attempt to offend.

Valpollicella Tue 19-Feb-13 23:57:01

But your posts do make you sound bigoted OP. Can you explain why it would be detrimental to the child?

Booyhoo Wed 20-Feb-13 00:00:26

hahaha. look at you trying to turn this round on other posters! FAIL!

OP can you answer my last post please?

Devora Wed 20-Feb-13 00:08:05

OP, I'm not interested in bashing you, but you should have a think about what you are doing here. You KNOW you are not the only one with these views - until recently they were clearly majority opinion, and loads of people still feel as you do.

Now imagine my kids, at school, with a group of mums chatting in the playground, thinking like you do. Do you think your dc, and others, won't pick up these views? Do you think they won't repeat them to children like mine, tease them, bully them?

I'll bet you don't know any lesbian or gay families. Perhaps you have a particular mental image of what same sex parents are like? Perhaps you should ask some questions before you decide that you know what it's about, and it's not good for children?

It's all very well shooting off inflammatory posts and then going all 'so shoot me' when people challenge you, but please don't miss the very real impact of your views on living, breathing children.

Valpollicella Wed 20-Feb-13 00:11:07

Devora <hugs> I hope you can take something from this thread in that there are a LOT of other mums posting who wouldn't give a glittery shit and don't have the same opinion as the OP.

yummymummy345 Wed 20-Feb-13 00:11:20

My original post asked can 2 men or women offer the same to a child as heterosexual couples, I was interested in opinions, I didnt state same sex couples should not be parents. I have come to the conclusion that perhaps there is no real difference as long as loving, secure relationships, children can thrive. I was interested in opinions that is all.

Booyhoo your asking a complicated question off the subject ie single parents I have given my opinion on this.

KobayashiMaru Wed 20-Feb-13 00:14:41

your pants are on fire.

Booyhoo Wed 20-Feb-13 00:19:19

no, i'm asking you if you are ok about a single gay parent raising a child and whether you think that is better or worse for the child than two gay parents in a couple. it is very relevant to the topic of the thread that YOU started. why can you not answer these questions? can you see that i am trying to get you to question your views by transferring them to similar scenarios that may or may not be more palatable to you.

if you are ok about a single gay person raising a child then it leaves me to assume that it is the act of being in a gay relationship that you think would be detrimental to the child being raised. which you say isn't the case. so i am quite confused.

are you happy with the idea of a single gay person raising a child?

edam Wed 20-Feb-13 00:28:32

I think it's one of the most moving social changes that's happened in my lifetime, that gay people can have children in gay relationships and that it can be normal and fine. I remember being a teenager and overhearing a gay kfriend of my mum's saying, of course, course I'll never have children... Fast forward 20 years and dh's gay male boss has two kids, who have four parents, parents, two Mummies and two Daddies. So lovely, esp as said boss spent his early adulthood being arrested for protesting for gay rights (in New Zealand).

Devora Wed 20-Feb-13 00:29:08

Thanks, Valpollicella smile. I do find MN a very safe and supportive place as a lesbian parent. I know i needn't bother posting at all, as loads of other MNetters will make the arguments I would make. I just hope that sometimes, it can make a difference to post about personal experience. I think some people imagine gay parents spend their lives sticking diamante and pink boas on their offspring and carting them round clubs and Pride demos, and maybe, just maybe, getting that our lives are about picking raisins off the floor and drilling Jolly Phonics might help them see us as parents first, hedonistic demons second.

claig Wed 20-Feb-13 00:29:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Devora Wed 20-Feb-13 00:32:12

edam, I agree. My head spins when I think how far we have come, and how fast. When I came out as a gay teenager, in the early 80s, the climate was so very hostile and for many years I just believed I would never be able to have children (which was heartbreaking, as I had always wanted them). It is amazing that I have been able to have children - that the state has even given me a child to parent - and that we live in a very straight suburb where we and our children are welcomed and respected. Fantastic stuff.

Greensleeves Wed 20-Feb-13 00:36:47

It isn't off the subject, it's relevant to the posters who are trying desperately to get to the root of your prejudice and understand it. Easier though it would be to just ignore you.

What exactly is it about a hetero relationship that you think children need and would miss out on? Is it some half-baked cultural hangover you have about children going fishing with daddy and coming home to a mummy in a apron who has just baked some gingerbread man? Or do they need daddy to teach them how to change a fuse and mummy to teach them how to make a bed with hospital corners? Or... mummy to be soft and sympathetic and daddy to lay down the law?

Because nobody's life is actually like that. Or is it sexual disgust? Is it that the couple are modelling a gay sexual relationship to the children? Because really if you think it through, it's no different from a hetero household - one generally tries to keep the coital howling to a minimum while the kids are awake, and answer any questions in an age-appropriate manner.

Explain what your actual problem is. Please.

yummymummy345 Wed 20-Feb-13 00:42:04

Booyhoo I do not have an issue with a single gay person as a parent. But your assumption which you have made about me is incorrect.

I do think that personal stories are helpful if willing to give, what good does it do calling someone homophobic etc - does it really change things?

Booyhoo Wed 20-Feb-13 00:47:04

" But your assumption which you have made about me is incorrect."

feel free to tell me what is right to assume about you then.

what is the issue with a gay couple raising a child that isn't an issue with a single gay person raising a child?

OeufsEnCocotte Wed 20-Feb-13 00:47:43

OP, not being funny here, but is English your first language?

TheSmallerPenguin Wed 20-Feb-13 00:53:39

What good does calling someone homophobic do?

It challenges your attitude. It needs challenging. Hopefully what may change is that you have a rethink about your attitude. I fear that may be wishful thinking, but the reason we no longer send the police around to bother people who are happily having consensual sex is that someone bothered to challenge someone else's attitude.

Ginformation Wed 20-Feb-13 00:54:29

OP is this in any way related to the digital spy thread <innocent face>?

If so, you are barking up the wrong ill informed tree. You will not get the response you were hoping for.

If I am wrong, my apologies and my sympathies for your little intolerant world.

^ what maryz said. ODFOD.

yummymummy345 Wed 20-Feb-13 00:58:20

Ok, for what its worth, when I wrote the post I wasn't sure what a difference if any, it made to have same sex parents or hetero parents. Although I wasn't comfortable with the new cultural change of acceptence. Thinking through, I believe (rightly or wrongly) in quite traditional role models for the male and female parents. However, in reality I guess it doesn't make any difference who performs what roles as long as the children are well loved and cared for.

Booyhoo Wed 20-Feb-13 01:05:32

why are you uncomfortable with the acceptance of gay couples as parents? surely you want to raise your children in a more accepting world than we have previously had so that they will grow up feeling accepted as who they are rather than having to hide any aspect of their being? you understand that your children might be gay, or bisexual dont you? why would you want them to not be accepted in society?

I think the op has accepted sibu

ripsishere Wed 20-Feb-13 06:29:19

Not before time though.
Shock horror, my friends have three children. Two boys and a girl. They are most worried about the girl since neither of them have ever had a period or a fanny.
They are the best, most involved and loving parents of all my friends. Better than me which, TBH, isn't too difficult.

smile

cory Wed 20-Feb-13 17:54:09

I've just realised that dh does not actually possess all the possible male qualities. In fact, I can think of quite a few traditional ones that are conspicuously lacking.

On consideration, it is also possible that I do not have a full supply of feminine qualities either.

So this means our children will not be getting the fully rounded bringing up that you are so concerned about, non?

I can, however, assure you that dh is in possession of a willy whereas I do sport a (somewhat torn and mangled) fanny. Does that make us ok then?

Is it about individual qualities or about toolkit?

sunshine401 Wed 20-Feb-13 18:08:01

O Lovely and we say we live in a free society. You sound charming by the way op. angry

BeCool Fri 22-Feb-13 00:32:54

What do you think is the "best thing for a child" OP? I take it by "a child" you mean a generic "every child" person.

I'm fascinated to learn what the best thing for this child is.

BertieBotts Fri 22-Feb-13 00:47:06

I think we need to stop thinking that men and women are some fantastically different species and that children will miss out so hugely if they don't have someone of their "own" to look up to in the home.

Also, this? Although I wasn't comfortable with the new cultural change of acceptence. Is the saddest thing. What the hell is wrong with acceptance sad acceptance is a wonderful and beautiful thing.

whethergirl Fri 22-Feb-13 00:58:55

I was raised by my dad. My mum was far too selfish to deal with the likes of me and was never there for me. My dad, on the other hand, bought me my first bra, consoled me when I started my period and sobbed about it, nursed me when I subsequently suffered from chronic period pains every month, came shopping with me when I was a teenager to buy new clothes etc.

That kind of blows your arguement of men and women offering different things out of the water, don't you think OP?

yummymummy345 Fri 22-Feb-13 15:39:49

Bertiebotts What like some cultures are happy to 'accept' Females are second class citizens? Just because it is accepted doesn't always mean it is right. Anyway If you read all of the thread, you will see I was more pondering and my view had little to do with actually whether someone is gay or not but more to do with roles in society. I agree- I hadn't portrayed this very well.

Whethergirl, I was always generalising about male and female roles, so your example doesn't blow anything out of the water as I believe your example is an execption to the rule.

AmberSocks Fri 22-Feb-13 15:46:09

im not a fa of any organized religion,but i don't think they should be forced to allow gay couples to marry there,i don't think they should change their beliefs to get more members,and hopefully it will just make people realise how ridiculous the idea of religion is.

cory Fri 22-Feb-13 15:47:41

What whethergirl's example showed was that a man was able to provide support traditionally more associated with the female role when it was required of him. Some of us may think, this is an exception because it is not so often required of a man. But does it not suggest that in an unconventional relationship where different things were required, parents might just rise to the situation? As whethergirl's dad did.

It is also a fact that the definition of male and female roles can change within a matter of generations. When I was a child in Sweden in the 60s, it was already quite common for men to change nappies, prepare family meals and take their children out. My dad did, but he was not unusual. The fact that it is still quite common 50 years later suggests that there was nothing "unnatural" or impossible about this shift of attitudes (which came about during the 50s and early 60s).

This was a shift of attitude that was primarily politically driven, but still worked to a great extent. In a same sex relationship, the motivation for change would be far, far greater, so why wouldn't that work?

Cailleach Fri 22-Feb-13 19:13:53

In my family:

My sister is a scientist (geneticist) with a PHD. (BUT HARD SCIENCE = BOYS?!!!)
My brother is a dementia care nurse. (BUT CARING = GIRLS?!!!!)
My dad was a social worker for years*. (BUT CARING = GIRLS?!!!!)
My mum was a Maths professor. (BUT MATHS = BOYS?!!!)

My Mum (and me) do all the DIY and basic car maintenance. The men in the family haven't got a clue about this stuff.
My dad (and brother) does the cooking and most of the cleaning. They enjoy it, the women in the family hate it and consequently are shit at it.

Conclusion?
Gender roles are horseshit.

(* Before he became an EHO)

ubik Fri 22-Feb-13 19:28:16

On the upside I saw an advert on the Glasgow subway today encouraging gay couples to come forward as potential adoptive families so attitudes like the op's are slowly changing for the better.

TheFallenNinja Fri 22-Feb-13 19:43:19

If gay couples could get married tomorrow and raise children by whatever means, this is what would change in our culture.

Fuck all.

yummymummy345 Fri 22-Feb-13 19:47:44

GENERALLY there is much research to support differences between males and females. It is not understood as to why- nature nurture debate of course. However, we can all provide examples of when the roles are reversed.

Perhaps it is to do with feminism or political correctness you are reluctant to point out the differences? because I am fairly positive that your interation with the world moves further than your imediate family.

Despite my believing that there are differences in gender, with regard to the op I appreciate that love and security is probably more important than gender roles.

ubik Fri 22-Feb-13 20:01:11

Actually op there are more differences between individuals of both sexes than between male and female.

This means that there are many men with what are constructed as 'female' personality traits and vice versa.

Ubik, those adverts are really inspiring, aren't they?

ubik Fri 22-Feb-13 20:44:37

It's a breath of fresh air, Agent. smile

WishIdbeenatigermum Fri 22-Feb-13 20:59:06

A church marriage is for 2 people to procreate
That bit is true. As many shocked relatives and friends of DH and mine can testify. The priest told us that the marriage wouldn't be legal until consummated.
The rest of the OP is twaddle- norm and normal are not synonyms.

tribpot Fri 22-Feb-13 23:02:37

So your argument is that there are fundamental differences between men and women - and that successful childrearing requires both. Except in the case of single parents, where it doesn't.

BertieBotts Sat 23-Feb-13 00:01:23

Lol tribpot. Exactly. Single gender role model in the case of a single parent = fine. Single-gender role models in the form of a gay couple as parents = not fine apparently.

I mean, surely even if you do subscribe to this horseshit theory that men and women are programmed to be totally different, if single parents can get around the problem of having a single-gender role model surely gay parents can?

cory Sat 23-Feb-13 11:04:01

WishIdbeenatigermum Fri 22-Feb-13 20:59:06
"A church marriage is for 2 people to procreate
That bit is true. As many shocked relatives and friends of DH and mine can testify. The priest told us that the marriage wouldn't be legal until consummated."

Only if you're a Catholic.

Amphitrite Sat 23-Feb-13 11:11:49

OP, I have three teenage daughters. One of them is really good with children, she is gentle and kind, the sort of person that toddlers always gravitate to at parties and who is really sweet with them, spends hours playing with them and reading them stories. The other two have no interest in small children whatsoever.
Guess which one is gay? Should she be denied the chance to marry the partner of her choice and have a family to appease your blind and random prejudice?

"accepted part of our culture as much as a hetrosexual couple."

And this would be bad because.......?

You do realise, when you say that having two gay parents may not be best for the child, that plenty of "normal" heterosexual couples are absolutely crappy parents, yes? The ability to be a good parent is not in any way connected to a person's sexuality.

And BTW, you are homophobic if you think that anything involving homosexual people is wrong or bad.

ubik Sat 23-Feb-13 11:21:29

Indeed - homosexuality is normal. To think anything else is homophobic.

What is the opposite of acceptance? I can't think of any positive alternatives.

Lastofthepodpeople Sat 23-Feb-13 11:35:14

I really couldn't care if a child's parents are gay or straight. Homophobic parents on the other hand can do a lot of damage...

SmileAndPeopleSmileWithYou Sat 23-Feb-13 11:38:40

Gay marriage in the news also is looking to change our culture to make it the norm although I dont understand why civl partnership which affords the same rights? is not enough?

erm...if that is your argument, why is civil partnership not enough for everyone? Why not get rid of religious ceremonies all together?
BECAUSE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE MIGHT WANT TO GET MARRIED IN A CHURCH!?

Why does it matter if those religious people are gay/straight?? I genuinely don't understand!

The priest told us that the marriage wouldn't be legal until consummated.
I'm pretty sure gay people have sex... whats the issue?

In fact, it's homophobic to make any assumptions about gay people at all apart from that they prefer to have sexual relations with people of the same gender.

tribpot Sat 23-Feb-13 15:14:10

You mean this whole thing about 'women in comfortable shoes' isn't true either?! shock

(I am a woman in comfortable shoes - out and proud).

BIWI Sat 23-Feb-13 16:52:58

I always wear comfortable shoes. grin

Amphitrite Sat 23-Feb-13 17:21:54

I always wear comfortable shoes. Is that how DD caught the gay? If only I had worn stillettos in her formative years she might have ended up 'normal' like the OP.

tribpot Sat 23-Feb-13 18:07:30

Yes - if we all wore uncomfortable shoes it is a scientific fact there would be no gay people requiring their human rights to be respected.

motherinferior Sat 23-Feb-13 18:13:13

I wear comfortable shoes AND comfortable pants.

BIWI Sat 23-Feb-13 18:15:21

You are uber gay, motherinferior!

tribpot Sat 23-Feb-13 18:15:25

I think this probably makes you responsible for the bisexuals, motherinferior.

I'm off to tell DH that I wear comfortable shoes. He wears comfortable shoes too. I think that might mean we are in a lesbian relationship. Do I need to have my hair cut short to match my comfortable shoes?

yummymummy345 Sat 23-Feb-13 19:27:10

probably makes you old? ooops perhaps I am now ageist too... OOh what else can I say that you will assume my thoughts from.....

You have forgotten glasses surely - dead giveaway.

I wear comfortable shoes and elasticated pants. I thought it was only sensible and being middle-aged. Now I find I must be gay. Poor DH, he'll be very disappointed when I tell him we must get divorced immediately. sad

FellatioNels0n Sun 24-Feb-13 15:53:53

I don't think they are likely to become 'the norm' exactly, do you?

Although there are plenty of supposedly 'normal' male/female parent combos I'd frankly quite like to see exterminated and replaced with decent, functional, non-abusive, loving gay couples.

Writehand Tue 26-Feb-13 19:47:49

Yep. Here's yet another post saying you're not a yummy mummy. You're a bigot. And "Are gay parents the new norm?" Well not while we heteros make up most of the population you moron silly woman.

As many have pointed out, gay adopters, like all adopters, are more likely to be loving and committed parents than so many loosely attached couples whose babies come from a drunken shag.

American research shows that the kids of lesbian parents do best in terms of well being and achievement. Of course, they're not intrinsically better because they're lesbian -- it's because they've usually had to put no little work and effort into becoming parents, so (on average) they take more care of the kids they have and have planned their family life in a way some heteros would do well to copy.

Smudging Tue 26-Feb-13 20:06:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

castellburt Wed 06-Mar-13 01:55:19

But you are being homophobic! The civil partnership is not equality with marriage - property inheritance is not covered for a start. When people say or write that they are afraid of gay marriages becoming the norm, it seems to show that heterosexual marriages are so insecure they are threatened by gay marriages! I think there will be much more security in the world when people who are different are allows to live their lives peacefully, contributing their special gifts to society.

anonacfr Wed 06-Mar-13 19:05:07

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