Philpott Case

(63 Posts)
SameDifference Wed 13-Feb-13 18:12:34

Listening to the Philpott case on the news. What a crazy life. Poor kids. And poor women.

GetOrf Wed 13-Feb-13 18:16:11

God knows if we can talk about this or not - I think this thread may up deleted mightn't it?

But I agree. It is utterly awful reading about what is being discussed at the trial.

meditrina Wed 13-Feb-13 18:20:50

It'll only be at risk if deletion if people start speculating beyond what has been stated in open Court, especially if such speculation is about guilt/innocence.

The family set up as described in court today was certainly unusual (to put it mildly).

TheCrackFox Wed 13-Feb-13 18:22:58

He strikes me as a deeply unpleasant person.

Not sure if we should be I think TheCrackFox sums it up.

GetOrf Wed 13-Feb-13 18:27:42

Yesterday's disclosure in court re what the police recorded on their surveillance was very disturbing. I don't want to repeat it here as I don't want to be thought prurient but it all seems so bloody horrible.

TheCrackFox Wed 13-Feb-13 18:34:22

Completely agree GetOrf, the police surveillance was especially grim and I found it very upsetting.

lljkk Wed 13-Feb-13 18:53:37

Would it be out of bounds if I speculated on what in the world about the man made him be so attractive to those women? I'll never understand what it is about some men, how they could ever pull anyone. The details that came out in court about their lifestyles, how did they justify it all to themselves at the time?

GetOrf Wed 13-Feb-13 18:55:43

I don't know. I assume that those women were very vulnerable (as well as incredibly young and influential). Perhaps they viewed that element of control as someone who loved and cared for them.

Auntmaud Wed 13-Feb-13 18:57:35

As Michael Stipe once said, anyone can get a shag if they lower their standards enough.

Some people just want to be loved though, I think its important to remember that. I dont think its about lowering your standard Aunt, some people will take love from anyone. (I dont mean that in a horrid way at all, I mean circumstances or background can influence who and how you accept love if that makes sense)

SamSmalaidh Wed 13-Feb-13 20:11:09

The mistress was only 17 I think when she moved in with him. I suspect young and very vulnerable - I bet she didn't have a happy childhood.

Auntmaud Wed 13-Feb-13 20:22:32

The whole situation is sad and depressing.
And the generosity of the welfare state enabled them to have so many children. Nice.

Geordieminx Wed 13-Feb-13 20:34:37

Can someone link?

Geordieminx Wed 13-Feb-13 20:39:55

Were the poor children that died the wife's or the mistresses? hmm

Chubfuddler Wed 13-Feb-13 20:42:21

His wife's. the mistress and her children fled by pretending to go out swimming.

There are dysfunctional families and then there's this kind of category of family. Words actually fail me.

Auntmaud Wed 13-Feb-13 20:43:05

They weren't a family. Please don't use that phrase to describe these hideous people.

ratbagcatbag Wed 13-Feb-13 20:43:36

The wife's children died, the mistress had moved out.

SamSmalaidh Wed 13-Feb-13 20:44:20

The wife's. The prosecution is alleging that after the girlfriend left taking her 5 children, Philpott and the wife tried to frame her for setting fire to the house, so they would get custody of her kids. They didn't intend for the 6 children to die, they were supposed to rescue them but allegedy set too big a fire. Have I put enough allegedlies in that?

Chubfuddler Wed 13-Feb-13 20:47:52

I think so Sam. Allegedly.

Auntmaud Wed 13-Feb-13 21:24:35

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Geordieminx Wed 13-Feb-13 21:28:09

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Auntmaud Wed 13-Feb-13 21:31:02

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CarnivorousPanda Wed 13-Feb-13 22:14:17

Poor children, having to live in this awful environment.

lljkk Thu 14-Feb-13 07:45:42

I think what SamSmal said is what the prosecution allege, it's on public record.

JakeBullet Thu 14-Feb-13 07:51:38

Auntmaud you are discussing women who were vulnerable and by the sound sounds of things very controlled by an abusive man, and at least one innocent party has lost children.....a little humanity please and less of the "thick as pig shit" comments.[h,m]

Oh and life on benefits is not THAT great....would YOU have swapped lives with them? Or perhaps me....I am on benefits too....it isn't generous....it is enough to live on and that's all.

It was the oddest set-up, and how confusing for the children. I wonder if SS were involved with the "family". Neither woman seems particularly bright. The mistress already had a child when she moved in at 17. I bet she had a terribly sad childhood. Just awful all round, really.

hackmum Thu 14-Feb-13 08:06:49

In the Mail this morning, there's a picture of Philpott with his wife and mistress (Lisa Wills). Her face has been blanked out "for legal reasons". That interested me - "legal reasons" usually means that the person is underage, but clearly not in this case. So I assume she must be involved in another legal case, or perhaps she is under police protection. Not sure if I'm allowed to speculate!

I agree that the evidence presented so far has been very disturbing. I wonder what the defence case will be?

Auntmaud Thu 14-Feb-13 08:34:03

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JakeBullet Thu 14-Feb-13 09:00:24

I have enough experience of working with vulnerable women to understand these women were abused. Therefore to refer to them as "scum" is dreadful....at least one of the women is not guilty as she had managed to get away from him.
The "thick as pig shit" comments are plain nasty, I worked with a woman like these two at one time...she had seven children with a variety of "fathers" and lived on benefits. Her childhood file at social services was horrendous .....very abusive childhood which made her vulnerable to the kind of men who abuse women. So yes I object to the comments you made (and have reported them) because being that foul about people is disgusting.
I have my own opinion about him and from what I have heard he is an abusive and controlling man. The women involved make their own choices freely and will have to pay the price for that. But to just dismiss them as "thick" is fairly ignorant and smacks of the type of person who judges all too easily without knowing any of the facts or background.

Auntmaud Thu 14-Feb-13 09:03:09

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JakeBullet Thu 14-Feb-13 09:06:04

By the way I am not handwringing over the adults who may be responsible for the deaths of six innocent children here. But be honest Auntmaud, if these children had not died then in 10 or 20 years time you would have been dismissing them as "thick as pig shit" too. How in earth could children in that situation have much chance of escaping a life of poverty?

If these parents are guilty (and the trial is still ongoing so no judgements should be taking place) then I hope they are locked up for a long long time.

JakeBullet Thu 14-Feb-13 09:08:48

Cross posted with you there......I guessed you'd call me a "hand wringing apologist". No I don't care about the adults IF (as I suspect) they are guilty. Just saying we should not be judgemental about their intelligence, lives or anything else when we do t know the facts. Apart from to wonder why the children were not removed a long time ago.

BinarySolo Thu 14-Feb-13 09:37:19

daily fail link

It says he cried when the 999 call was played. I wonder if he cried in the same way he did when appealing for info where both parent kept wiping tearless eyes. I remember that making myself and others suspicious at the time.

They all seem very odd.

lljkk Thu 14-Feb-13 10:40:12

I am with JakeBullet. It doesn't help prevent people like this to vilify them with simplistic labels. Need to understand how cute little innocent babies grow up to be selfish & foolish people, & do such collosally stupid things.

God can Condemn them. I'd rather understand how and why.

VeryDullNameChange Thu 14-Feb-13 10:54:03

Can we please distinguish between the adults who are accused of multiple child homicide and the adult who made some dreadful life choices but then did her best to run away from this appalling situation with her children - the police and the CPS clearly believe her to be entirely innocent. Do not lump them all in together as "the adults".

But actually, best to hold our tongues for a few days until we have a judgement from the jury. A little bit of patience won't kill anyone.

JakeBullet Thu 14-Feb-13 11:13:45

Thank you verydullnamechange, you have said well what I said badly. Vilifying people when they have not yet been convicted doesn't help....far better to ask why this happened and could it have been prevented.

There WILL be a Serious Case Review with regard to the children who died which might answer some of the questions as it will look carefully into the lives of the adults and their backgrounds. Am betting they will find a massive history of abuse in childhood for some if not all of them. This does not mean all abused children grow into dysfunctional adults but it does mean that chaotic families like this need much more support to stop history repeating itself or worse. This support is not necessarily financial as in benefits but in real practical family support.

Poor children...they didn't deserve this.

BinarySolo Thu 14-Feb-13 11:36:48

Sadly though I'm not sure we will find out why. If they are guilty I don't think they will be telling the truth as they haven't pleaded guilty. It's a sad case and the circumstances are very unusual, but I'm not sure how much can be learnt from it other than handling of external agencies.

hackmum Thu 14-Feb-13 17:28:09

Jake - Lisa Wills testified today that Maighread Philpott confided in her that she'd been sexually abused as a child.

JakeBullet Thu 14-Feb-13 17:35:55

Yes just read that and tbh I wasn't surprised.....and Lisa Willis was only 17 when she moved in which makes me wonder about her background too.

sunflowersfollowthesun Thu 14-Feb-13 17:40:23

I was just released from jury service in that crown court last Thursday. I was so dreading being selected for it.
They were telling jurors who would suffer serious financial/family problems from sitting on a six week trial to speak up to see if they could be excused from that jury pool. (Jury service commitment is usually only 2 weeks) We guessed it was this case they were preparing for.

SamSmalaidh Thu 14-Feb-13 17:40:58

She was orphaned by 12 and then lived with an older cousin who introduced her to Philpott.

JakeBullet Thu 14-Feb-13 17:41:26

I pity the jurors who have to listen to it all tbh sad, an awful case.

CogitoErgoSometimes Thu 14-Feb-13 18:32:40

Carole Malone's remarks look positively measured from this perspective....

GetOrf Thu 14-Feb-13 18:42:06

I was thinking earlier that I had posted how upset I was at that press conference - I have posted lots on that thread cogito.

I genuinely thought that those two were remorseful and heartbroken. Bit bloody embarrassed reading that back. What a terrible judge of character I am. But I just couldn't fathom that there was anything sinister in it - thought is was just a horrible accident.

Geordieminx Thu 14-Feb-13 19:55:29

Someone on here said a while ago that if the police suspect involvement from a family member they ask them to do a press conference/public appeal so that they can get behavioral expects in to examine their reactions etc. don't know how true it is

edam Thu 14-Feb-13 21:27:17

The mother who got away from Philpott with her kids was orphaned at 12 and lived with a cousin who introduced her to him? Poor girl. No wonder she was easy prey for an abusive, controlling, dangerous man. Thank heavens she managed to get out with her kids - how terrible that the others suffered so dreadfully.

JakeBullet Fri 15-Feb-13 08:47:52

In fact the more I read about their lives, the sadder it becomes. sad
Lots of abuse allegations now surfacing against him.

AnAirOfHope Fri 15-Feb-13 08:56:40

The abuse allagations could be a defences ploy.

An adult knows no good will come from setting your home on fire with sleeping children in it!

JakeBullet Fri 15-Feb-13 09:28:23

Absolutely. ...it's horrific. I do suspect that abuse will play a part somewhere but to recklessly start a fire kbowing there are children in the house is indefensible really. No matter that you might not have intended for them to die sad

hackmum Fri 15-Feb-13 09:55:16

AnAirOfHope: "The abuse allagations could be a defences ploy."

Only if the wife and husband have different defence lawyers. If they share the same lawyer, then it wouldn't make any sense for the defence to be telling people that Mick Philpott abused his wife.

ChazDingle Fri 15-Feb-13 14:40:13

on derby evening telegraph site where i've been following the story it listed all their barristers and they all have different, so presumably different lawyers too

Auntmaud Fri 15-Feb-13 15:22:21

I dunno, I get very uncomfortable with the assumption that a woman is always victim to a man if she does vile things, that it's because she is under his control.

Maybe Mrs Philpott is as calculating, as nasty and as thoroughly repulsive an individual as her husband allegedly is?
Why is that not a possibility? Why must women be excused and patronised by always assuming she is weak and controlled and vulnerable? Why can't she simply be a piece of evil shit like he is?

JakeBullet Fri 15-Feb-13 15:36:10

Oh I would not discount that at all AuntMaud, a woman can do bad thibgs no matter what the circumstances. ....just consider Rose West. Lots of information out there which alleges SHE was the abusive one in the marriage altnough they both did horrendous things.

Evidence does suggest though that for people who have grown up in abusive backgrounds the risks of following suit are higher than in those who have a "normal" background. Loads of information now lookibg at brain development in children and later outcomes.

I think in this case he sounds an abusive and controlling man but that doesn't mean his wife can just say "he abused me" if she knew and willingly took part in this.

JakeBullet Fri 15-Feb-13 15:40:11

I wonder if they will eventually all start blaming one another....all those different defence teams are bound to be just looking out for their client.

I have no doubt they will Jake, I dont believe we`ll ever know who instigated the fire that night, or whether they came up with the idea together.

edam Sat 16-Feb-13 09:00:49

Of course women can be bad of their own accord. But the girlfriend who escaped with her kids testifies that Philpott was abusive and the prosecution case is he set the fire to beat her in a custody battle, which is certainly the action of a bullying, controlling, angry man.

I think if you look at the stats, it's far more common for a woman to act under the control of an abusive man that for a woman who is in a relationship with a man to be the prime mover. Not saying it doesn't happen, just that it's not the most frequent situation.

AnAirOfHope Sat 16-Feb-13 14:57:03

If someone wanted to set fire to my home with my kids in it I would tell the police and get help not stand by and do nothing.

Auntmaud Sat 16-Feb-13 18:59:32

Or worse, co operate.

Auntmaud Sat 16-Feb-13 19:00:21

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Auntmaud Sat 16-Feb-13 19:01:09

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BinarySolo Sat 16-Feb-13 19:20:57

Don't forget, AuntMaud this was a plan to get custody of the other kids. Special kind of stupid.

Auntmaud Sat 16-Feb-13 19:41:03

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