(Warnng upsetting) Little boy murdered for failing to learn passages from the Koran

(101 Posts)
ReallyTired Mon 07-Jan-13 12:57:05

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-20920649

This news story made me want to cry. I feel its tragic that no one managed to prevent the horrific abuse. I feel that the entire UK let this little boy down.

This case is as bad as Baby P or Victoria Climbe.

RabidCarrot Mon 07-Jan-13 13:04:15

shock evil bitch (although I would put money on the father being involved as well) I hope they don't put her in solitary confinement,

happynewmind Mon 07-Jan-13 13:16:13

sad

When I worked in schools in an area that had a very high population of Muslim students I had to make a referal as three of the children from one particular Mosque were being hit for the very same thing during the children's sessions.

All three were on our sen list at school for learning difficulties.

MrsDeVere Mon 07-Jan-13 13:28:19

I know it has a religious aspect but this woman beat her child because she is a child abuser.

She would have done it if she was an atheist. It would have just been because he didnt make his bed perfectly or get an A+

Poor little boy. It is just awful.

ReallyTired Mon 07-Jan-13 14:01:26

I think the fact that the family was muslim is almost irrelevent.

I find it sad that tragicies like this in the UK still occur on a regular basis. There is nothing Islamic about murdering a little boy.

As I said earlier, I feel this boy was let down by everyone. (Including many christians/ athetists/ jedi knights/ whatever religion.)

MrsDeVere Mon 07-Jan-13 14:24:07

He had old injuries. He was at school AND a religious school.
Someone should have noticed. He is 7.

It is beyond horrible.

ReallyTired Mon 07-Jan-13 15:26:03

MrsDeVere I 100% agree with you. I feel the father should have noticed the injuries as well as the (primary) school. I am sure there will be a serious case review so that lessons can be learnt.

It is a terrible waste of a young life.

Nancy66 Mon 07-Jan-13 17:26:46

horrible story. Poor little poor. I absolutely don't buy that the father knew nothing. He must have seen cuts and bruises.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 07-Jan-13 17:36:24

There are many very evil and disturbed cunts in this world, irrespective of their religion. They all share sadistic power trips over vulnerable people, cannot control their anger, and do not take responsibilities for their own vile actions. As a Muslim myself ive never ever come across any type of abuse in the madrasahs I've been to or children's school, so I would hope that this is extremely rare. Culture has a big part to play in the treatment of this little boy I would say, and the sick bastard who did this to him is subhuman. I think all of us are gutted and devastated to hear this story. May the little angel rest in peace.

Pixel Mon 07-Jan-13 18:05:10

Poor little love having a mother like that, not only violent but devious with it. I'm glad she got a long sentence but the judge must know something we don't if he calls her "a devoted and caring mum".

Why do you think it's the fault of 'the entire UK'? hmm

ReallyTired Mon 07-Jan-13 18:16:34

"Culture has a big part to play in the treatment of this little boy I would say, and the sick bastard who did this to him is subhuman. "

I don't believe that the treatment of this little boy has anything to do with culture. The Ege family has more in common with Baby P's family than most UK muslims.

I feel that the husband has a lot to answer for. I suppose that muslims believe that he and wife will have to face Allah one day. I cannot believe that the husband knew nothing.

This case deserves the same level of public outcry as the baby P case had.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 07-Jan-13 18:23:54

Really tired I don't know how much contact you have had with other cultures but speaking as someone who does on a daily basis, there are certain nationalities who have specific social expectations with regards to children's behaviour. For example, a child may be expected to be completely subservient and submissive towards elders, and will put up with harsh treatment, even physical violence because they are your elders and 'know better'. Some children are not permitted to give an adult eye contact when speaking to them. Physical punishment even very severe beatings are not seen as unusual if the child has failed in his

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 07-Jan-13 18:26:08

Or her studies, had said something rude, or is seen as acting in an insolent way. My entire point being that the vile woman who did this to her son may have had outrageous expectations of him and lived her own desires through him, ie forcing memorisation of do Quran at a young age, something held in high prestige in the Muslim community.

chipstick10 Mon 07-Jan-13 18:33:25

Poor little soul. So sad. What an evil bitch, I hope she gets the same from her inmates.

Booyhoo Mon 07-Jan-13 18:43:33

"Yaseen collapsed after she had beaten him while still murmuring extracts of the Koran."

sad

even while dying he was reciting the koran. this is just so so awful. that poor little boy. he is defenceless. his parents are supposed to protect him from the world. he trusted them.

MrsDeVere Mon 07-Jan-13 19:33:36

Waynetta I think that is a huge generalisation and misleading.
I work almost exclusively with families from BME backgrounds including a lot of Muslim families.

If anything, 'spirited' young boys are celebrated and although they are expected to respect elders, beatings are certainly NOT usual.

The parents I work with have to be encouraged to set boundaries.

Child abuse does not have a cultural bias. Cultural rules can make it difficult for community members to challenge but that is a different issue.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 07-Jan-13 19:46:02

Mrsdevere I'm sorry but you need to re read my post and stop taking it as a generalisasation. Facts are this woman, like I stated, is a vile individual who due to her own disturbed state of mind and POSSIBLY the culture she was born into (submissiveness to elders) took it upon herself to mould her innocent child into a Hafiz (memoriser) of the Quran. When he was not able to perform to her standard she brutally murdered him. I'm not on here to debate, and I speak both as a Muslim and as a person who has been around many backgrounds who have cultural expectations with regards to kids. The evil mother took it all too far, fact. I'm leaving this thread as I've said my piece and hope the little one rests in peace.

Greythorne Mon 07-Jan-13 19:49:55

Poor little boy.
Such cruelty from the person he should have looked to for unconditional love.
Heartbreaking.

RIP

MrsDeVere Mon 07-Jan-13 19:49:57

I am not sorry but you need to stop posting rubbish.

HTH.

WaynettaSlobsLover Mon 07-Jan-13 20:02:52

You are looking for a fight on a thread that is discussing the tragic death of a child. That's rubbish in itself. If you are so unbelievably ignorant to the part culture can play in the murder of innocent people, why don't you google "honour killings". Something to consider before you unnecessarily accuse me of posting rubbish. Have a biscuit and an early night.

ReallyTired Mon 07-Jan-13 20:04:27

Muslims I know in real life mostly sensible people. Their lives seem to have the same ups and downs as the rest of us.

"Child abuse does not have a cultural bias. Cultural rules can make it difficult for community members to challenge but that is a different issue. "

I competely agree. I think that some people are scared to challenge child abuse when its a different ethnic background. Certainly that was a factor in the death of Victoria Climbe who wasn't muslim.

knackeredoutmum Mon 07-Jan-13 21:46:10

She didnt murder him because he didnt memorise the quran, he died because she was very angry and lost control. In this case it was quran memorising, put the same woman in a different culture and her son would have been beaten to death for some other reason such as stealing or not doing his homework.

Normal muslim people do not beat their kids because they cant learn fast enough. It is the act of a dangerous and out of control woman who needed help - unfortunately it seems from the serious case review that noone was aware of that.

knackeredoutmum Mon 07-Jan-13 21:48:09

Plus there is a huge gulf o difference between a parent who "gives their child a slap" and one who actually beats their child to death. One is perhaps undesirable but within the normal range, the other is quite obviously not.

timtam23 Mon 07-Jan-13 22:07:15

I was very sad when this was discussed on the news today

The poor poor little boy, may he rest in peace now

flatpackhamster Tue 08-Jan-13 09:18:14

knackeredoutmum

She didnt murder him because he didnt memorise the quran, he died because she was very angry and lost control. In this case it was quran memorising, put the same woman in a different culture and her son would have been beaten to death for some other reason such as stealing or not doing his homework.

Are there lots of cases of women beating their children to death for not doing their homework? Can you cite even one?

knackeredoutmum Tue 08-Jan-13 09:20:10

you have misunderstood me, the woman is a child beater, the reason for the beating is incidental, if she werent beating him because of his quran memorising it would have been something else

ReallyTired Tue 08-Jan-13 10:54:46

It is a tremenous feat to memorise the entire Koran. It takes years for an adult to achieve such a goal. Sara Ege was obcessive, prehaps she is autistic. It would certainly explain her childhood feat of learnng the Koran so well.

"Normal muslim people do not beat their kids because they cant learn fast enough. It is the act of a dangerous and out of control woman who needed help - unfortunately it seems from the serious case review that noone was aware of that. "

I am sure there have been extensive pychiatric reports and assessments. Sara's actions after the event showed she was quite compus mentous. She was able to think and act clearly. She choose not to seek medical assistance for her son, she tried to frame her husband and pervert the course of justice by attempting to destroy the body.

I think she has been given the right sentence. I am sure that she would executed in the majority of muslim countries. Sara Ege is lucky in that Britain can afford to keep her in jail for 17 years.

knackeredoutmum Tue 08-Jan-13 11:08:58

Tbh i dont know how all the different charges work but was surprised she got charged with murder (did she really intend to kill him) and not some kind of aggravated manslaughter (ie reckless beating resulting in unintentional death) -the poor boys death doesnt seem in any way intentional or premeditated to me?

Perhaps she is autistic? What does that mean? Are autistic people obsessive people who are able to commit everything to memory and child beaters?

Please be careful of generalisations.

alemci Tue 08-Jan-13 11:16:13

I am sure child abuse does happen in every culture but this particular religion and culture does come across as being very bullying and controlling e.g. towards women and violence does seem to occur.e.g. honour killings, forcing their daughters to marry some distant cousin. I know this was the mother and she must be mentally unhinged or just nasty.

Poor little boy. not fair.

WaynettaSlobsLover Tue 08-Jan-13 11:37:30

Alemci. Please for gods sake do not label a religion as bullying and controlling. Anyone with half a brain can see that the perpetrators of crimes, regardless of race or religion, are simply sickos. I assure you if islam as a religion was 'controlling' or 'bullying' there is no way in hell I would have become muslim. Do your research before speaking like that.

WaynettaSlobsLover Tue 08-Jan-13 11:39:10

Islam forbids physical violence, forbids forced marriage and forbids oppression against people. Very very easy to google. It's these types of daily fail remarks that never cease to amaze me.

AmberLeaf Tue 08-Jan-13 11:47:34

It is a tremenous feat to memorise the entire Koran. It takes years for an adult to achieve such a goal. Sara Ege was obcessive, prehaps she is autistic It would certainly explain her childhood feat of learnng the Koran so well

Really?

Wow, well that makes a change from the usual 'perhaps he is autistic' directed at abusive husbands.

alemci Tue 08-Jan-13 12:00:19

No I stand by what i say. I am not saying everyone who practises Islam is like that but there have been quite a few incidents in the media recently which reflect my thoughts e.g. the men in Rochdale who abused young girls, the parents in court for murdering their daughter.

There was the programme on channel 4 with the secret filming in a mosque school where children were hit by the Imman. was this a staged production.

Why are you amazed. If Islam forbids violence then why do so many attrocities happen in connection with it in the middle East.

There is nothing wrong with my brain Waynetta.

Snorbs Tue 08-Jan-13 12:10:04

Waynetta, Quran verse 4:34 clearly calls for husbands to beat their wives for disobedience.

WaynettaSlobsLover Tue 08-Jan-13 12:14:02

There clearly is something wrong with your brain I have to tell you. Have there never been sex rings in the uk run by white people who come from catholic backgrounds? Have children never been abused at Sunday school and in non Muslim institutions? What about the violence in ireland and in israel??I think you have been reading too much daily fail and I think you are too lazy to educate yourself about the religion you are labelling. I thank god not everyone is so narrow minded and so severely lacking in life experience and knowledge. I will eat my hat if you even have muslim friends.

WaynettaSlobsLover Tue 08-Jan-13 12:15:25

You read the English translation, not the Arabic. The Arabic states that a man may tap his wife if she is openly lewd or abusive in her behaviour. Why don't you research it for yourself?

WaynettaSlobsLover Tue 08-Jan-13 12:18:14

Similarly if a husband is lewd and abusive then the woman can get a divorce. The misunderstandings come in when people quote a scripture that they have no knowledge of and do not understand the original language is it written in.

alemci Tue 08-Jan-13 12:24:41

I am not narrow minded Waynetta and nothing is wrong with my brain even if you insist on telling me there is. I haven't heard of any child being murdered for not knowing their bible for instance or the Torah.

Maybe this woman had a troubled background and had been abused in the same way by her parents.

I agree there has been plenty of abuse in the name of religion e.g. catholicism and alot of it is political as I suspect is the case with Islam

You seem very defensive about Islam. Have you converted?

also the intolerance if a Moslem decides to become a christian. I can't quite get to grips with that.

I still think there is something in Islam that just hasn't moved into the 21st century and it is stuck where the church was 500 years' ago.

Lottapianos Tue 08-Jan-13 12:28:44

'Alemci. Please for gods sake do not label a religion as bullying and controlling'

Waynetta, I grew up in a devoutly Catholic family in Ireland. I have no problem with Catholicism being labelled a bullying and controlling religion, which encourages extremely unhealthy attitudes towards women and sexual relationships. I think that alemci has a point about Islam, but that's not to label every Muslim person as a bully, far from it.

alemci Tue 08-Jan-13 12:33:51

thanks Lotta. That is what I am saying, definitely not every Moslem.

If this women needed to talk to someone about how she felt would she have been supported at her mosque by individual people or would she be judged. was she isolated and lonely.

ethelb Tue 08-Jan-13 12:38:32

It is interesting to note the number of people who have lept to claim that this woman did it because she was a child abuser, not because she is a muslim.

You would never get that if it had been a Catholic involved. There were a number of sneering claims that Jimmy Saville did what he did because he was a Catholic on MN just a few months ago.

What's the difference here?

WaynettaSlobsLover Tue 08-Jan-13 12:47:18

Moslem? That's a strange spelling. Are you American alemci? If so, to be honest what with all the 'war on terror' propaganda George bush subjected America to, I wouldn't be surprised at the reaction you have displayed. You have labelled islam whilst contradicting yourself in saying that you don't blame every Muslim. How does that make sense? You just stated above how the religion is controlling and bullying and then gave the Rochdale sex ring and the mosque beatings as an example of Muslims behaviour. You cannot lay the blame on religion itself when what it teaches are the opposite of what the people following it do. Let me know when you or anyone else has educated yourselves sufficiently before making out islam to be something it is not. May the child rest in peace.

WaynettaSlobsLover Tue 08-Jan-13 12:49:19

Nice to see this is a little meeting ground for the daily fail readers. biscuit all round

HerRoyalGoddess Tue 08-Jan-13 12:51:01

What happened to that little boy was horrific and the woman should have been given life in prison with no chance of parole after seventeen years. Tonight I'll be giving my children an extra special cuddle and reminding them that I love them unconditionally.

Snorbs Tue 08-Jan-13 13:04:03

Waynetta, yes I read the English translation. Half a dozen translations, in fact, all of which vary from "beat" to "scourge" as the verb in the sentence. Whose translation do you prefer? Or do you read Arabic natively and so are translating yourself?

alemci Tue 08-Jan-13 13:17:45

no not American. I thought it could be spelled either way. I think the daily fail comment is a bit daft and pointless.

I still think Islam does tend to be the way I described it but maybe some followers take it more seriously than others. In the way that you have practising christians and people who would describe themselves as a christian but would not regularly go to church.

What is the reason behind the honour killings - is it cultural? Why will Muslims not accept it if members of their family want to become a christian?

What do you think made the women behave this way? Was it the expectations of her religion? Was her husband abusing her and then she was pushed over the edge and murdered her son.

Maybe it is not the religion but the cultural expectations of families. I don't know but if I wish to comment I will do so and not feel browbeaten.

WaynettaSlobsLover Tue 08-Jan-13 13:18:05

Exactly my point. The English translation. When the prophet Mohammed was asked what this meant, he demonstrated by taking a miswak (a little wooden toothbrush stick) and tapping it lightly to explain what the meaning of the Quran verse said. This is in ahadith which are a series if narrations from his time and give us explanations in many aspects of life. You can pick and prod as much as you like, your predictability in trying to make out men can thrash their wives in islam is absolutely nothing I haven't seen before. Then again, I can't argue with your ignorance so it's easier just to smile and nod. grin

zorbathegreek Tue 08-Jan-13 13:20:31

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

WaynettaSlobsLover Tue 08-Jan-13 13:23:43

All the questions you just asked above, I have to say I'm pretty shocked that you are serious about asking them. And yet again there you go, contradicting yourself; one minute saying not all Muslims act a certain way and then you are asking why Muslims (generalisation again) wont accept it if a family member wants to become Christian. It just proves what lack of education and general knowledge you have in many areas of life. Why don't you google Hindus and honour killings/forced marriage, just an example. Not all people who practise a religion seriously such as myself, condone the types of things that go on in the world.

Viviennemary Tue 08-Jan-13 13:23:49

I agree with the woman beat her child because she is a child abuser and cruel. Nothing to do with the Koran.

littleducks Tue 08-Jan-13 13:26:36

What a beautiful child.

I think this is just as serious as Baby Peter and Victoria Climbe. Hopefully any lessons that need to be will be learnt to prevent future tragedies.

I feel really sorry for him, I wish he had had the same opportunies my kids have. My son is 4. He learns arabic to recite Qu'ran too, I told him off for wriggling about in his chair the other day (he is expected to sit properly and not swing his legs or wriggle about at mainstream school) and his lovely teacher said "Never mind he is only little." He has male teacher who he likes so much he gave him his sweet last week (not one from a packet, his only one!).

WaynettaSlobsLover Tue 08-Jan-13 13:27:35

Ok zorba. This has definitely confirmed how utterly stupid some people can be. No education. No desire to educate. No Muslim friends obviously. And a lovely sweeping generalisation yet again. Do have fun in your little bubble of ignorance guys, I'll just be hanging out with Al Qaeda and trying to ban Christmas from the uk so that Muslims don't get offended. Cheerio dearies.

FunnysInLaJardin Tue 08-Jan-13 13:30:30

I heard this story last night and it's so very very sad. DS1 is 7 and this morning when I woke him I gave him some extra hugs and kisses. I can't imagine how you could do that to a child. Poor little boy

alemci Tue 08-Jan-13 13:34:12

Why are you shocked I'm asking them? Yes I am sure you are right it happens in the Hindu community as well. I remember reading a book about an Indian girl who converted to christianity.

I am quite well educated and you seem very judgemental. I am not having a go at you personally but questioning Islam. You haven't really answered my question about the conversions either.

I am sure you knew I didn't mean every Muslim in my first post and I explained my train of thought.

You did say earlier in the discussion that if a child knew the Koran off by heart then it was highly regarded by the community. Perhaps that is the problem. wouldn't it be better for the boy to be enjoying himself being a child rather than having to learn the Koran. This poor boy couldn't deliver the goods and she lost it.

mumblechum1 Tue 08-Jan-13 13:39:24

Perhaps part of the problem is that there are communities where everyone is Muslim/Hindu/Whatever, and that if there was a lot more mixing and less ghetto-ising (is that a word?) between cultures then things would be a lot easier, in other words, you wouldn't have a situation where everyone knows everyone else's business (in this case, possibly, the level of Koran-learning that people's children do).

If someone lives in a "community" where lots of people are cousins to each other, or know each other from the village in Pakistan that their parents all came from or whatever, there must be a massive pressure to conform.

Ministrone Tue 08-Jan-13 13:43:35

Isn't it a tragedy that a small child died at the hands of his mother?

knackeredoutmum Tue 08-Jan-13 13:48:42

mumble - there is no way on earth this woman beat her child to death because she wanted to conform, she was a child abuser pure and simple. In this country we do not tend to jump to criticise the religion of any child abusers except muslims. Being a muslim has nothing to do with being an abuser - your upbringing might, your psychological problems might, being beaten by your father and then by your brother might, but the big point is, these factors apply to many and most abusers whatever their background.

knackeredoutmum Tue 08-Jan-13 13:50:38

marsh - precisely. Has no one been reading the papers these last 12 months?? The number of child murders by parents/partners etc, especially of toddlers, is soaring in this country, and we need to ask ourselves why this is - not all rush to point the finger and spend our energy in cases exclusively where islam is involved.

mumblechum1 Tue 08-Jan-13 13:51:01

Yes I realise that Knackered, I was just wandering down a bit of a side street there, opened up by a few previous posters.

MiniTheMinx Tue 08-Jan-13 13:54:44

I think people are conflating culture and religion. They are two separate and distinct things IMO.

I think SWs have been loathe to intervene at times for fear of being called racist. I also think that we have been too ambivalent when it comes to tackling abusive practices in some cultures. I'm thinking of something like FGM as a perfect example of this.

The mother didn't beat her son because she was Muslim but she did beat her son because she had certain (culturally ingrained) expectations about his behaviour. She beat her son because she wanted him to recite the Quran but her expectation was born out of cultural practice because not all Muslims can recite the whole of the Quran and neither are they expected to.

I can't believe that the father gets to walk away. He would have known.

juule Tue 08-Jan-13 13:55:26

"In this country we do not tend to jump to criticise the religion of any child abusers except muslims."

And Catholics?

mumblechum1 Tue 08-Jan-13 13:58:21

Of course the father would have known.

ReallyTired Tue 08-Jan-13 14:05:20

PrinceRogersNelson people with autism sometimes do have obcessions. Mostly the obcessions are completely harmless like an obcession with dinosaurs or some interesting area of science or in the case of Temple Grandin an obcession with cattle welfare. 99.99999% autistic obcessions do not hurt anyone and people with autism do not commit child abuse. A person with autism is far more likely to be a victim of violence than to commit violence.

When you read of hideous things like the death of Baby P, Victoria Climbe or Yassam Ege its only natural to wonder what drives people. I don't understand why it was so important to Sara Ege for her son to learn the Koran off by heart to the point of missing school, yet alone being beaten.

Most Muslims I know in real life are balanced people. Sending a child to a religious school is no different to a christian family sending their child to sunday school. My muslim friends would never beat their children.

Fundamentalist christians have a repuation for child abuse.

www.openbible.info/topics/discipline_of_children

This poor little girl died as a result of her parents following the Pearl method of child rearing.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2016875109_hana28m.html

More about their hideous book train up a child http://loseraspie.hubpages.com/hub/Please-dont-read-To-Train-Up-a-Child

Child abuse is nothing to do with islam. Its right that the death of any child is discussed. The death of Yassam should have the same level of media coverage as Peter Connelly.

knackeredoutmum Tue 08-Jan-13 14:11:48

This is what I am trying to say here, learning the koran would have been important to the mother, but not important enough that she would beat him to death.

That happened because she was unhinged, damaged or an abuser. As far as I understand it, learning the koran isnt important enough to muslims that they would beat their kids - it just doesn't have that status - not obeying or not achieving or not performing or conforming on the other hand possibly could.

I live in an inner city "ghetto" (!) type area as some might call it, my neighbours send their children to learn the koran, same as 1000s round the country, but they dont kill them, beat them and neither do the vast majority hit them either.

This poor boys death isnt about the mothers religious beliefs, if she had the same background, genes, upbringing etc but was a christian or hindu, she would still have beaten her child to death, but for a different reason.

knackeredoutmum Tue 08-Jan-13 14:13:34

sorry really tired, I think I am agreeing with you - but what I'm trying to say is, I dont think learning koran was important enough to the mother to beat him that way - I think she became enraged, lost control, has psychological problems etc, the koran was the trigger, it could easily have been something else.

MiniTheMinx Tue 08-Jan-13 14:22:10

<<not obeying or not achieving or not performing or conforming on the other hand possibly could>>

But these expectations have been passed on through the generations, this is cultural not religious IMO

knackeredoutmum Tue 08-Jan-13 14:24:14

mini - i agree, can even be just a single family passing these things on, not even a whole culture

MiniTheMinx Tue 08-Jan-13 14:45:38

I agree because culture can be experienced at the level of a family, institution, club, school, work place etc..... as well as society.

Snorbs Tue 08-Jan-13 18:01:42

Waynetta, you seem to have missed my question in your hurry to pour scorn on Arabic-English translations.

My question is this: the half-dozen translations by Islamic scholars that I've seen say quite clearly that husbands are allowed to "beat" or "scourge" disobedient wives. You claim that is poor translation and, instead, a more accurate translation would be "tap".

Whose Arabic-English translation do you base that on? Someone else's or your own understanding of Arabic?

TheNebulousBoojum Tue 08-Jan-13 18:26:48

I worked in a primary school in the NW where all the children were Muslim. Several became hafiz and were recognised and honoured by the community as scholars.
There was physical punishment given out by parents to children, on a similar scale to my own upbringing in the 60s.
I think the mother in this case lost touch with any reality she might have had and the boy died as a hideous consequence of that. Utterly tragic.

Booyhoo Tue 08-Jan-13 19:27:12

"In this country we do not tend to jump to criticise the religion of any child abusers except muslims."

erm, catholicism?

MiniTheMinx Tue 08-Jan-13 19:40:33

Snorbs, it has to be considered in context though surely. In the time of the Prophet women were treated far harsher. The prophet was in favour of women being allowed to own property, he gave provision for women to divorce abusive husbands, he told family to take in widows. He married an older women because he felt responsible for her. Whilst it may say in the quran a husband can beat/tap/chastise his wife, it says many things in the bible that are equally outdated now. As a man of his times, I think the prophet was probably quite liberal compared to his peers.

Nellysknickers Wed 09-Jan-13 13:35:40

This most certainly is not a case of religion but child abuse. That beautiful little boy, my heart breaks every time a case like this emerges. In this day and age it should never happen. RIP little fella.

Snorbs Wed 09-Jan-13 13:45:39

It's a tricky area to say something like the Qur'an "should be considered in context". It's a holy book. You could consider it in the context of it containing stories of a religious chap who had some good ideas and some bad ones. Or you could consider it in the context of it being about the life of the most perfect man who has ever lived and who could, as a consequence, do no wrong. Or you could consider it in the context of it being the Verbatim Word of God and therefore containing nothing but unequivocal and infinitely enduring truth in every syllable.

Sure, I can look at it and see it as quite progressive for its time but still mired in the ways of the iron age society from which it emerged (violence against women, slavery and all the rest). But some people take it a little more seriously than I do.

MiniTheMinx Wed 09-Jan-13 20:44:24

It's interesting isn't it, that the Quran literally means recite. The word of god. Well if it is the word of god, without cultural or historical bias, why didn't god say "women must be treated equally and given equal pay" or "do not beat your children, if you do, I will send a social worker round forthwith"

Any interpretation will be of it's time & culture. There will always be a bias. On the other hand it's an interesting historical document.

Snorbs Wed 09-Jan-13 22:54:14

You can say the same for any holy book that claims to be divinely inspired. For example both the Torah and the Bible are notable for their lack of many basic moral rules such as "Slavery's bad, don't do it" or "if you get raped you shouldn't be forced to marry your rapist".

MiniTheMinx Thu 10-Jan-13 08:04:18

So true Snorbs. Which is why they make brilliant historical records and little else. If you think about slavery in the time at which the bible is written, slavery was an economic materialist desire of the ruling class. Men expected to have their book condone the practice of slavery.

BegoniaBampot Fri 11-Jan-13 11:16:14

Think culture can come into these things and it's not necessarily religion. I have Muslim friends, many more moderate Muslims who probably just happen to be born in a Muslim culture or country but don't practice it strictly and seem to lead more western style lives. but from having made some strict Muslim friends from Pakistani background, I've been surprised that violence, coercion and bullying seems to be accepted and encouraged at least in some of the community. These friends have experienced domestic violence amongst their parents, siblings and with their husbands, arranged marriages to cousins etc, know people involved in honour killings. I'd say there are much stronger expectations and attempts to control than you would expect in a western culture. I'm not saying every person from Pakistani background conforms to this or agrees to this behaviour but I think to say culture doesn't play a part is wrong. Not very PC I know, but it's my friendship with these women and what they have told me that has made me that has made me start to question this culture when before I was really defensive of people saying negative stuff and accusing them of just being bigoted or intolerant.

CoteDAzur Fri 11-Jan-13 11:25:02

"I still think there is something in Islam that just hasn't moved into the 21st century and it is stuck where the church was 500 years' ago."

Do you think that has anything to do with the fact that Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity?

CoteDAzur Fri 11-Jan-13 11:28:27

"Well if it is the word of god, without cultural or historical bias"

If God were to send down some instructions to a group of people, it would have to be relevant to that time and culture, so no, I don't agree with you that such a message would be without cultural or historical bias.

(I'm a lifelong atheist, btw).

CoteDAzur Fri 11-Jan-13 11:33:51

"Why will Muslims not accept it if members of their family want to become a christian?"

Do you know every Muslim person in the entire world that you are so sure Muslims will not accept family members converting to another religion?

I know several Muslims who have converted to other religions and vast numbers of Muslims who are openly atheist. Older members of their families are not thrilled but they accept it. Younger members of these families don't really care one way or the other.

CoteDAzur Fri 11-Jan-13 11:39:23

"It is a tremenous feat to memorise the entire Koran."

If you read even the first two lines of the article, you would see that she wanted the boy to memorise passages from the Quran, not the entire thing.

ReallyTired Fri 11-Jan-13 11:41:25

"Do you think that has anything to do with the fact that Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity? "

I believe the issue is education rather than religion itself. Most Islamic countries are third world countries which struggle to educate their population to 18. The lack of education makes people into narrow minded fanastics rather than Islam.

Christian countries like Uganda have as many human rights abuses as the most brutal of islamic countries. (Executing gays) Infact the USA has dubious human rights record. (Executing or life imprisonment people for crimes committed as minors, or during postnatal pychosis, torturing muslims at Quantano Bay)

I believe that the entire UK is responsible for Yassam death becuase we voted for a govenant that has made huge cuts. We have not invested enough in child protection and training. I am sure that many devout muslims would agree with me that we as a nation failed this little boy.

CoteDAzur Fri 11-Jan-13 11:49:36

My point is that Christianity was going through its dark ages 600 years ago. Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity and is arguably going through a similar period. It is not that surprising.

CoteDAzur Fri 11-Jan-13 11:51:09

"I believe that the entire UK is responsible for Yassam death becuase we voted for a govenant that has made huge cuts"

Oh come on.

You may have noticed that the whole world is going through a little something referred to as a terrible economic crisis. Whichever government you voted for would have had to make huge cuts.

MiniTheMinx Fri 11-Jan-13 11:56:34

I was saying that the so called"word of god" does have a cultural and historical bias, so i think we agree smile

I agree, the cuts that are being made to services along with the rhetoric of individualism over any kind of collective and social responsibility is hardening people and depriving others of the help they need. I suspect that actually western culture has a lot to answer for too.

ReallyTired Fri 11-Jan-13 13:08:55

"You may have noticed that the whole world is going through a little something referred to as a terrible economic crisis. Whichever government you voted for would have had to make huge cuts. "

As a country we have had to make cuts. The difficulty is deciding where the cuts are made. Its stupid we have not chosen to raise the base rate of income tax to ease the burden of cuts. I feel that child protection should have been ring fenced from the cuts.

I agree that western cuture has a lot to answer for. If this poor child had been murdered in Iran then maybe we could blame Islam, however he was murdered in a mainly Christian country full of people (with lots of different religious views) who failed him.

Muslims with a similar level of education are no more backwards than Christians. Christian illiterates in the US are no different to uneduated muslims. It detracts from the debate to insult Islam and its adherents.

"My point is that Christianity was going through its dark ages 600 years ago. Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity and is arguably going through a similar period. It is not that surprising. "

That is nothing more than relgious bigotory. Uganda is still in the dark ages.

CoteDAzur Fri 11-Jan-13 13:25:19

"Religious bigotry" grin

I come from a Muslim family, a Muslim country, and about half of my friends are Muslim. I have no "bigotry" whatsoever towards Islam.

What I have said is a fair assessment of the situation. Islam is going through a stage that Christianity also went through, about 600 years ago. Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity. This is hardly a coincidence.

Islam will also have its Enlightenment, but it will take time. Extremism will unfortunately first have to run its course. Let us all hope that it won't need as much bloodshed as the French Revolution to get started.

MiniTheMinx Fri 11-Jan-13 14:21:59

CoteDAzur, can I ask you, just out of interest, do you think that if the Quran is the spoken word of God? would it follow then that the Quran is the third book of the bible?

I know Christianity has a "bloody" past with wars and the crusades but I had never thought that perhaps Islam is going through a similar process. Interesting. If that is the case could it be related to wealth of the nation/culture/people in terms of economic wealth and education, social power at the level of nations but also at an individual level. We like to think that everyone in the UK has equal rights and opportunities but its clearly not really the case.

ReallyTired Fri 11-Jan-13 14:56:04

Christians still do bloody things. I don't think that we can claim to be enlightened and bomb the shit out of loads of third world countries, killing innocent. There is no way the west can claim the moral high ground when our country invaded Iraq on false pretences. (No one seems bothered about North Korea because they don't have oil.) In recent years more muslims civilians have been killed by western countries than the other way round.

I believe that Islamic countries will improve their standard of living when everyone without learning difficulties can read and write to an adult standard. The biggest issue is a minority of men who feel girls should not go to school. The UK improved dramatically when universal education was introduced in victorian times.

There are countries with religions that are thousands of years old like China. China is not a particularly civilised place to live. Their enlightment will come when education and affulence improves. China is at the stage England was 200 years old during the industrial revolution.

CoteDAzur Fri 11-Jan-13 22:39:41

Mini - re "do you think that if the Quran is the spoken word of God?"

I don't believe in God, so no, don't think Quran is the spoken word of God.

"... would it follow then that the Quran is the third book of the bible? "

... but if I believed in God, then yes, I'd say Quran would be the third book of the Bible.

There is huge overlap between the Quran and the Bible, and the God of Quran is very clear that it is the same God who previously sent Judaism and Christianity. Biblical characters appear often in the Quran, with almost identical stories. There is an entire chapter in the Quran dedicated to Mary, mother of Jesus Christ, talking about what a wonderful woman she is.

Don't ask me to quote verses, but Quran is pretty clear that Islam was sent because Christianity went astray, just like Christianity was sent because Judaism got diverted from the path God intended. Iirc correctly, God's main problems with Christianity were the Church & veneration of Jesus, and this is the reason that:
(1) Quran says all you need to understand & worship God is the Quran. No organisation like the Christian Church is needed. No priests etc to show you the way. It's between you and God.
(2) Quran is very clear that Mohammad is the messenger, and although a pretty good guy, not divine.
(3) Muslims are forbidden to draw or otherwise depict Mohammad (so that they can't make icons, paintings, and sculptures of him and worship him)
(4) It is forbidden to change even a letter of the Quran (presumably, so that the message can't be distorted like it was with God's previous efforts at communication)

Having read the Quran as well as the Bible, I have to say that Quran is slightly more reasonable. It features the occasional wife slapping and enemy slaying but at least doesn't call "righteous" a father who offers his virgin daughters for gang rape to an army.

"I had never thought that perhaps Islam is going through a similar process... could it be related to wealth of the nation/culture/people in terms of economic wealth and education, social power at the level of nations but also at an individual level. We like to think that everyone in the UK has equal rights and opportunities but its clearly not really the case."

I think of a religion as a living entity with a predictable life span that includes a Dark Ages period of extremist devotion at the expense of the real world, a fundamentalist (literal) reading of its scriptures, and a desire of its devotees to commit violence on behalf of their religion. Then comes bloodshed and lots of misery. And then through this struggle is born Enlightenment, where people decide to live and let live, everyone's religion to themselves etc.

Science, technology, and pursuit of all things material suffers during these Dark Ages, so it is not surprising that people are left poor and ignorant. You might invent a great new technology but if it's going to upset the mullahs and lead to your beheading, you won't come out with it. Or you may have discovered how the solar system works but if it's going to cause the Church to burn you at the stake, you will shut up about it. It is not surprising that Enlightenment is followed by increased education & wealth, but I don't think that these Dark Ages are caused by their lack.

alemci Sat 12-Jan-13 09:54:25

Do you not think the bible is more balanced because it has been written by more than one person whereas the Koran 's only author was Mohammad.

I think the idea of needing a priest is more in catholisism, although the church can appear quite structured.

I think violence in the dark ages wasn't necessarily to do with the bible or christianity but the dog eat dog society - like the witch hunt in the crucible. People were superstitious and didn't have the understanding we do today in the West (we probably don't always get it right now). A bit like Ireland today and the protestants versus the catholics.

also the church was political. The bible was in Latin so people weren't really free to read it. That is why John Tindale in Henry VIII was such a radical printing the bible for every man to have access too.

Just clarify who the father is who offers his daughters for gang rape and I will have a look.

I think you are right about science and technology and keeping quiet. Then I suppose some people were brave such as Tindale and then he fled to Belgium I think and still ended up being burnt at the stake

ReallyTired Sat 12-Jan-13 11:54:10

The Bible has been written over thousands of years. The old testament is considerably older than the new testament. The new testament takes prescence over the old. The old testament is a mixture of history, stories, pslams and advice. The Bible doesn't claim to be written directly by God, although it is inspired by God. No one knows who the authors were of parts of the old testament. The New testament has several authors as well, ie. four accounts of Jesus's life and letters from Paul. Again these are inspired by God rather than directly dicated by an Angel.

Much of the old testament is a historial record. We study the old testament to put the new testament into context. There are loads of things in the old testament that Christians are allowed to ignore.

These are the only things that Christians are required to do

"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”" Matthew 22:37-39

Christians are required to love Muslims as themselves. Unfortunately many christians have not been good at this. As difficult as it is, we are required to love Sara Ege as much as ourselves. We are also required to look after the foreigner in our own land.

We failed Yassam quite spectularly.

CoteDAzur Sat 12-Jan-13 12:00:08

" bible is more balanced because it has been written by more than one person whereas the Koran 's only author was Mohammad."

(1) Mohammad was illiterate. Quran "came" to him over 20 years, and probably written down by others around him at the time.
(2) Assuming that we are talking about divine truth, what does "balanced" even mean? If God is communicating with people through a messenger, I'd think it would be better if he was writing it down himself.

"needing a priest is more in catholisism, although the church can appear quite structured."

Of course the Church is very structured. Before Enlightenment, its leaders had absolute power, and kept all of Europe in a state of terrible ignorance, under a reign of terror. All this, although Jesus didn't create any such structure as the Church.

You can almost understand how a frustrated God would say "Right. You imbeciles have to be told exactly what to do" and next sent down a very restrictive religion that controls every aspect of people's lives.

"I think violence in the dark ages wasn't necessarily to do with the bible or christianity"

The definition of the Dark Ages includes the intellectual blackout of the period and there is little argument as to why that happened. So yes, it had to do with fundamentalist, extremist version of Christianity of the time. Just like Islam of our day.

"Just clarify who the father is who offers his daughters for gang rape and I will have a look."

Really? You haven't heard of Lot?

When soldiers came knocking on his door, he proposed his two young virgin daughters to them if only they would leave him alone. I don't remember if it was after this that said daughters seduced him. Lovely man. Bible calls him a righteous man hmm

Another Biblical story I have always found amusing was the bald guy who is teased by children and asks God to punish them. God sends down two she-bears to tear those children into bloody bits. Lovely God, too hmm

CoteDAzur Sat 12-Jan-13 12:03:08

"These are the only things that Christians are required to do"

Aside from suffering not a witch to live and murdering gay men?

Funny how you think you can pick and choose smile

logitech56 Sat 12-Jan-13 12:05:01

how did a thread about the horrific abuse of a child by his mother become a thread about religion?
What that woman did was evil. But the question in my mind is why did NO ONE pick up on what she was doing? the school, the boys father, the rest of the family? the neighbours? the school he was learning the Quran at? Because they will not sanction such behaviour by parents. Its just not acceptable in any society.

As a minor point, the memorising of the Quran is a massive intellectual acheivement. In pakistan, children who do this, receive the equivalent of a school leavers qualification. Its not something that can be done as a little aside, like ballet or scouts or drama classes.

CoteDAzur Sat 12-Jan-13 12:08:28

Well, all that was said by everyone in the first two pages. And then went on to talk about some issues some of us find interesting.

I hope we have not terribly offended you by doing so.

HeyHoHereWeGo Sat 12-Jan-13 12:17:59

I feel its tragic that no one managed to prevent the horrific abuse. I feel that the entire UK let this little boy down.
^^
^^
Ooh ooh lets all change our facebook status to "I hate the abuse and murder of children". Post this if you agree.

I did not let this boy down thank you.

alemci Sat 12-Jan-13 12:18:45

Yes of course I have heard of Lot but I couldn't remember that incident specifically. I will look it up - thanks. Don't know who the bald guy is - please explain

You did say Mohammad was illiterate so maybe the scholars put their own spin on things and he couldn't read what they had written down, as could have happened with the bible.

also christianity isn't about doing good deeds although hopefully christians would want to help people in need, no one would ever reach God with Good deeds hence the birth and death of Jesus.

With the dark ages I meant that they may have carried on like this in the name of christianity but that was the power mad leaders using it to control people and I am sure not every member of the church was like that. Name of the Rose is an interesting take on this.

Back to the subject and yes society has failed this boy but the mum is to blame. I think social workers are so scared of doing anything because of the pc society which has been created.

CoteDAzur Sat 12-Jan-13 12:27:48

I looked it up for you. The bald guy is called Elisha. He was teased for his bald head by children. So God sent down two bears to gruesomely murder 42 children. Yes, 42 little children. Yes, for the heinous crime of teasing a man for his baldness.

Well done to the God of Love.

"no one would ever reach God with Good deeds hence the birth and death of Jesus."

I honestly don't understand what the above sentence is to mean. And I have never understood what the death of Jesus was supposed to have achieved. God sires a human child whom he then leads to horrible torture and death so that he himself can then forgive humankind for their past & future sins hmm

"With the dark ages I meant that they may have carried on like this in the name of christianity but that was the power mad leaders using it to control people and I am sure not every member of the church was like that. "

Of course not. And not every member of Iran's Islamic government is a misogynist religious nutcase. But the overall effect is the same - absolute authority through claiming a divine mandate, little freedom of any kind, and certainly no intellectual freedom except to toe the religion's line.

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