hunting is illegal so why do it?

(320 Posts)
VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Mon 17-Dec-12 22:26:22

i ride. (well, ive just started but....)
i abhor hunting. hate hate hate the cruelty of it. i think that the RSPCA did the right thing here in this prosecution. why do people of a certain class believe they are above the law?

and we spend money (rightly imo) doing this

mad world. why do people feel the need to kill animals in the most inhunane ways possible?

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Tue 18-Dec-12 07:22:37

Why drive over the speed limit? Why burgle a house? I don't think 'class' has anything to do with how willing someone is to break the law. However, due to its remote nature and woolly definitions, I think the fox-hunting ban was always going to be impossible to police and that rural communities, if they'd been consulted, would have other priorities when it comes to fighting crime.

Electricblanket Tue 18-Dec-12 09:57:27

Only people of a certain class break the law? shock

Xenia Tue 18-Dec-12 10:08:59

Hunting is not illegal. Labour messed up the law as they are pretty incompetent at most things. Only certainly aspects of what is done are illegal.

Why did Labour not ban fishing?

grimbletart Tue 18-Dec-12 11:28:31

Why did Labour not ban fishing?

'Cos it's a working class sport of course. grin

Xenia Tue 18-Dec-12 14:44:27

Exactly. More people fish than watch football in the UK. It is not very pleasant for the fish. I wonder how people who fuss over animals take their decisions - is it just on the grounds of quantity of fur and cuteness.

MerryChristMoose Tue 18-Dec-12 14:51:01

The local hunt provided a useful sideline in carcass disposal. My DH used to run for our hunt each year and got paid for it. He got to run 18 or so miles over some beautiful private land, hotly pursued by bloodhounds and the riders. He loved it (apart from the goat pee/curry powder combo on his trainers for the scent).

Nowt cute about foxes.

Xenia Tue 18-Dec-12 16:06:27

They have soft fur. They look good round your neck.

People tend to be happier about the death of animals which aren't cute which of course has no moral basis at all as a distinction.

dapplegrey Wed 19-Dec-12 18:50:38

Vicar - do you hate hate hate the cruelty of fishing and shooting?

Pixel Wed 19-Dec-12 19:30:43

People of a certain class eh? Nice to see the stereotypes alive and kicking. Vicar you have been spending a lot of time in the Tack Room recently, you must have noticed loads of people are talking about hunting atm (not me, I'm not into it), do you think all those mumsnetters are landed gentry? Even with the constant posts about the best way to keep horses on a shoestring while holding down a job and how to get second-hand stuff on ebay?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 19-Dec-12 19:32:36

I hate the cruelty of hunting, fishing, shooting, factory farming, dairy...

GhostShip Wed 19-Dec-12 19:33:48

I hate the cruelty of hunting, fishing, shooting, factory farming, dairy...


getoffthecoffeetable Wed 19-Dec-12 19:46:23

I think the point is more that people have given money to the charity and wouldn't have expected so much money to have been spent on legal fees rather than rescuing and caring for animals.

Jellykat Wed 19-Dec-12 20:10:16

I hate fox hunting with avengence - can well remember the hounds running through our fields without permission, and have friends who also had them on their land, running through fields full of pregnant Ewes and into their badgers setts.

Had a screaming arguement with the head of hounds who seemed to think they were entitled to go where they liked.. year in, year out.
They would never warn us either, so that we could get our animals in <shudder>

The sound of it alone, all day long, made me feel sick.. Absolutely repulsive. sad

pointysettia Wed 19-Dec-12 21:04:09

Hunting with hounds is illegal. The police and the CPS won't or can't prosecute. The hunts know this and just do what they want. IMO this prosecution by the RSPCA was long overdue, and I only wish the punishment had been more severe. The law is the law, it needs to be applied. I will be making a big donation to the RSPCA so that they can do this again.

And hunting foxes with hounds is such an efficient method of pest control that every other country in Europe is doing it as well. Oh wait, they aren't. I wonder why???

DialsMavis Wed 19-Dec-12 21:57:05

I think that hunting foxes with hounds is illegal, drag hunting with hounds is legal but sometimes they may accidentally catch and kill a fox.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Wed 19-Dec-12 22:07:26

I hate the cruelty of hunting, fishing, shooting, factory farming, dairy...

^this too.
add the fur trade and poaching to that list for me too.

i cant say i have come across any threads in the tack room on hunting but i dont tend to pick fights and i dont tend to look for them - i like riding, i just abhor animal cruelty. i thought the tack room was for people who liked riding and owned horses?

hunting with dogs is illegal. im glad this prosecution was brought. i concede i should have left the word class out of it. it has nothing to do with class. it has everything to do with breaking the law.

and for me, basic human decency in that i dont get pleasure from the terror and pain of animals which are hugely outnumbered.

Jellykat Wed 19-Dec-12 22:16:58

Are you a member and supporter of the league against cruel sports Vicar?
The emails i get are very informative, and they need as much support as possible..

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Wed 19-Dec-12 22:21:01

im not, but im not sure what im allowed to be a member of - is it political? if not i could probably join.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 01:02:16

Laws in a liberal democracy have to be supported by those they effect eg most motorists agree with the seat belt law. However, pretty much the only people effected by a hunt ban are hunt followers and landowners; so of course it is a failed law. We hunt followers do not morally agree with the ban and are hardly going to report ourselves! The hunt ban is a vague, muddled mess with lots of loop holes therefore very hard to enforce. It has nothing to do with animal welfare- quite the opposite. The key point under the Hunting Act is it has to be deliberate hunting, which is very hard to prove. I assume the RSPCA's political point making was only successful because civil prosecutions have a lower burden of proof? At £336,000 ish a pop, they won't be doing too many of those I doubt, even with the obscene amount of money this organisation possesses. Hunt followers like myself are passionate about our sport, heritage, countryside and animals and will fight on to keep it going strong, for however long it takes.

dapplegrey Thu 20-Dec-12 09:56:50

Do you eat meat and fish, vicar?

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 11:09:23

^ moot point.

You can be against hunting and still eat meat.

I'm veggie - but anyone who isn't doesn't automatically have to condone animal cruelty.

PandaWatch Thu 20-Dec-12 11:27:59

I'm vegetarian but would rather someone who knows what they're doing goes out on a shoot and kills the animals they want to eat cleanly and quickly over them shopping for meat in a supermarket.

However, I consider people who hunt with dogs as borderline pyschopaths with a blood lust. How anyone can gain pleasure from knowing an animal is being tortured to death over hours (taking into account the amount of time it is chased to exhaustation, terrified out of its wits, before being torn to shreds) is beyond me.

And anyone who presents the "well foxes kill chickens" argument is just not worth engaging with.

PandaWatch Thu 20-Dec-12 11:32:15

Oh and lets not forget the thousands of hunting hounds that have been destroyed ata young age over the years because once they've outlived their usefulness to the hunt they cannot be rehomed. How on earth can a hunt supporter claim to be passionate about animals?!

Alameda Thu 20-Dec-12 12:11:42

it's very difficult to kill a fox quickly and cleanly though, shooting usually = very slow very painful death from wounds

although have never found the vermin control justifications all that convincing, hunting is just fun isn't it and most hunt activities probably fall within the stupid law anyway

£300k is a lot of money, many suffering animals could have been helped with that, shocking waste of money. Withdrew my support from the RSPCA years ago when they stood idly by during the foot and mouth crisis

DialsMavis Thu 20-Dec-12 13:44:53

Why does it matter if Vicar is veggie? There is a huge difference between eating meat and killing animals for pleasure, or even making other animals kill animals for pleasure.

Hunting with dogs is more akin with badger baiting, dog fighting or cock fighting than with buying and consuming meat

littleducks Thu 20-Dec-12 13:54:07

The RSPCA spent £300,000 on legal fees shock I won't be donating a penny to them ever again, whatever the rights and wrongs that is redicolous, even the judge deemed it unnecessary!

Electricblanket Thu 20-Dec-12 16:50:16

Jellykat, I am sorry your local hunt were so vile! We have always had a very good relationship with our local hunt.

There was an understanding with All of the local farmers including those who didn't agree with hunting and the hunt totally respected that. I live in a very small community however, so maybe it comes down to a level respect between us all that was so obviously failing in your community. That is such a shame. I would hate to live in a community like that.

Unfortunatly the only issue now is those who hunt with guns or taken matters into their hands.

dapplegrey Thu 20-Dec-12 17:36:21

Vicar hasn't yet answered my question as to whether she eats fish. She says she is opposed to fishing so presumably she wouldn't want to eat anything that has been caught on a line or in a net.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 18:09:36

Pandawatch your comments about hunters being psychopaths with bloodlust are so utterly immature and ridiculous even you must realise that in your heart. I hunt because I love watching hounds work and track the quarry and having a thrilling unpredictable ride across fields, hedges and fences. As a farmer, I feel that this is the best, most certain way to kill a pest- it is either killed very quickly or escapes unharmed. This is often not possible with shooting as the fox is largely nocturnal and skulks in hedges etc. I do also shoot and so have no axe to grind. As a meat eater, I have seen the sharp end of both practices and IMHO hunting is FAR easier to justify morally than meat eating. My cousin is a vegan who hunts. At least we hunters have taken responsibility for killing a fox, have risked our own limbs in the chase and have respect for the quarry, which I am not sure meat eaters do when buying packaged meat from the supermarket. The comment about putting down hounds is also stupid, why would hunts put down fit hounds? They are kept until they are too unsound to hunt, which is arguably better than people keeping dogs into a doddery, incontinent old age. Large hounds have a relatively short lifespan anyway and are a kennels kept pack animal so wouldn't be happy with/suitable for re-homing. Hunting horses often go on into their 20s. My current hunter only retired at 19/20 due to melanoma.

OpheliasWeepingWillow Thu 20-Dec-12 18:21:38

Battery farming chickens is vile so why do it... but it's legal.

Honesty if as much money had been plugged into animal welfare as spent on the hysterical campaign against fox hunting animals across Britain would be much happier as I type.

And I'm not in favour of hunting before you ask.


VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 18:27:44

no i dont eat fish.

i eat organic free range meat which gets shipped up from Devon. Its expensive and so i dont eat much meat, but would rather buy this than supermarket or factory farmed meat.

i believe hunting with dogs is cruel. I see no justification for hunting with dogs, badger baiting, cock fighting, or dog fighting which i believe are all inhumane and all illegal. Why should these illegal activities be ignored? More prosecutions should be brought, a colleague recently arrested several men for badger baiting. I am employed to prosecute people who break the law. I dont think people can pick and choose based on what they want to do, or feel is their right.

pointysettia Thu 20-Dec-12 18:33:31

I'd like an answer from the pro-hunting with dogs brigade re the effectiveness of hunting foxes with hounds.

If it's so great, why doesn't everyone in Europe do it this way?

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 18:36:23

Pointy there is a lot of hunting in Europe. France and Ireland for example are riddled with packs of hounds.

OpheliasWeepingWillow Thu 20-Dec-12 18:36:52

This reminds me of the fur debate. What makes mink so special? Why is it more vile to kill mink than a chicken?

Hunting with dogs = nasty, unnecessary and horrible BUT I wish people would direct their energies toward meaningful change on a larger and more pragmatic scale. HFW for example.

OP you just come across as a bit belligerent and narrow TBH

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 18:42:01

I hate the assumption that those in the countryside are for hunting and resent the hunting ban as interfering townies messing with things they don't understand. I have lived in farming and hunting country my whole life and I will never agree with hunting. Never never never never.

Of course you can be against hunting and eat meat. There is a world of difference between pursuing a wild fox/stag/badger to its violent death, and eating livestock which has been bred for its meat.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 18:43:03

Vicar, you think hunting is cruel- but compared to WHAT? Shooting? Snaring? Gangrene from being hit by a car? I have seen a number of kills by hounds and they have all been split-second affairs. I would far rather go that way if I were a fox than the other methods, trust me. I think you are much crueller when you eat meat than I am when I ride to hounds. I would rather obey my moral judgement than the law and take the consequences. I have always been and remain prepared to go to prison for hunting. As a fox hunter, I am a member of a cultural minority and will defend my culture to the last.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 18:44:09

Ophelia - I think it's more the point that we need food to eat, we do not need to wear animal skins to survive.

In this day and age we don't really need to eat meat, but I accept that the transition to veggie can be difficult and expensive for some.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 18:46:07

Ariel the fox is an amoral predator which has a very good chance of escape and feels little if any fear (from my observations) until the kill which is very quick. Your dinner is a gentle herbivore with no chance of escape which dies a stressful death trapped in a slaughterhouse. I have seen both and can assure you that meat eating is worse.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 18:46:26

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 18:47:31

Oh I laugh at the 'its very quick'.

The fox is chased until exhaustion, then ripped apart by dogs.

Would you like a fate like that?

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 18:48:05

There are antis in the countryside, but very few. Hunting would cease tomorrow were it not for the fact that over 90% of farmers are supportive of hound sports

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 18:49:10

and 'amoral predator'? What does you expect, a wild animal to have morals confused

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 18:50:08

Ghost how many hunts have you watched? I have seen countless hunts. The fox is in his natural habitat, free and confident of escape. They can be more than a mile ahead of the pack for most of the time and will stop to scratch, sniff or wee, they are not distressed until possibly the last few seconds. I would much prefer this fate to the other methods and the dreadful way most people die TBH

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 18:50:45

I don't expect it to have morals, I am stating a fact!!

Xenia Thu 20-Dec-12 18:51:13

Mumsnet campaign to reform the law to allow keeping of animals for fur? I have never understood the new-ish ban. What is the difference between keeping rabbits for meat and using the fur compared with keeping an animal solely for fur?

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 18:51:46

Of course a fox is amoral. It's a fucking animal. How many animals have morals? We're supposed to have morals though. And how the fuck do you know I eat meat?

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 18:53:08

Oh cheers for the vile comment Ghost I think you must be losing the debate to play the insult card. Yes hunting is the most amazing sport which has given me the best days of my life and I am very proud and lucky to hunt

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 18:53:58

You stated it as part of your point, it is irrelevant and stupid to point out that a wild animal is 'amoral' confused

Ah here we go, I have to have been to a hunt to be able to comment. Fact is, I have many friends who are in similar circles to yours who once thought this okay but have now opened their eyes.

If you want to do it, do it. But don't try and condone it by saying its part of our culture. It is wrong, immoral and barbaric. No words you use to say otherwise will wash with anyone with any sense.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 18:54:46

I'm not losing any debate since I wasn't in one with you when I made the comment.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 18:55:22

Hunting per se is not illegal - you are permitted to use hounds to flush a fox to the gun, for example. Using two or more dogs to kill a wild mammal is illegal

I hunt because I love the opportunity to cross country I would never otherwise have the chance to access, to see and feel how much my horse loves to run and jump in a herd-like situation which I think gives him real joy and to enjoy the company of like-minded country people. I had no issue with hounds being used to control the fox population prior to the ban, and would happily hunt again for such purposes should the ban be repealed

I think hunting is one of those issues that some people will always have very strong views on that no amount of discussion will alter. That's fine, but using emotive and abusive names for those who support hunting doesn't contribute to the debate IMO

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 18:56:58

Ha - you losing the argument too Ariel with the cussing?! I am at least being civil. I have already said I am simply stating a fact that the fox is immoral I don't expect it to be anything other- eg the fox that ate our sheep slowly alive as it was lambing, stating with the lamb and then half eating the ewe. If you don't eat meat fine, I am making a general point. I eat meat, shoot and hunt, I just happen to think meat eating is the hardest to justify morally.

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 18:57:37

Oh sorry. Hunting on the other hand is so polite.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 18:58:56

Hunting is natural, and frankly nature is anything but polite

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 19:00:12

And yes it does make me swear. When I was young, my cat escaped from a pack of hounds out with the hunt by the skin of his teeth and he just made it through the cat flap. Next door's wasn't so lucky. The parents had to tell the children their pet had been ripped to bits by the hunt. No one asked us if their hounds could come piling through the garden. But at least no one swore, eh?

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:00:24

Well said TheOriginal. Hunting is brilliant for horses, they absolutely love it above anything else. Hard to explain to those who don't get it but hunting is one of those things that is greater than the sum of its parts- an amazing spectacle, off the scale thrilling to be involved in and with an incredible electricity that makes ones neck hairs stand up- in a good way.

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 19:01:48

And is it a sport or is it pest control. Because they always say it's pest control because of the poor chickens and then say they hardly ever catch anything.

Why can't you just take your horse out for a ride if you love it that much? That's what no one has ever been able to explain to me.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 19:02:05

So those people who enjoy the thrill of riding your horse cross country with a pack of hounds - what's wrong with drag hunting?

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:03:17

It is a real shame that the cat got killed, but it was an unfortunate accident, no different to accidentally running one over with a car. There are very few incidents compared the the huge number of hunting days per year.

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 19:04:46

A domestic pet being ripped to bits in its own garden is no different to it being accidentally hit by a car? The master of the hounds didn't even apologise.

What are you people like?

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 19:05:28

You can take a horse out for a ride, we do it most days

But hunting is not a "ride" - there are often 30-40 horses out on the days we hunt, and to gallop and jump in company of so many other horses is as different from a ride out alone or with one other horse as can be. Hunting refreshes competition horses who have become stale, teaches young horses to cross varied country and jump at speed and can give you a tyoe of bond with your horse that is difficult to achieve in everyday riding

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 19:05:59

So can you not just take your horse for a hack if it's thrilling to ride? Is everyone who owns a horse an automatic supporter of the hunt?

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:07:01

Lots of fox hunters also drag hunt, but it doesn't perform the pest control function, which is why farmers like fox hunts on their land. Hence there are very few drag hunts nationally. It is also a totally different sport, so its like saying why not play football instead of tennis? Drag hunting in an equestrian sport not a hound sport, it is not suitable for many riders and horses. It tends to be more dangerous for the horses too.

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 19:08:03

But you just said they don't actually catch and kill many foxes.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 19:09:09

I like drag hunting, but they go like the clappers and it is not suited to all horses (and there are many less packs than standard ones). We often use hunting to teach young horses to cross varied terrain, jump boldly and learn to behave in company - the charge of the light brigade type hunting you get out with some drag packs is not suitable for achieving those aims

Our hunt abides by the law, lays trails and mimics pre-ban hunting in the sense of stopping frequently to "draw coverts" (now hounds working to find the artificial scent) and allowing the field to watch hounds work - one of the great joys of hunting

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:09:32

Ariel you obviously just don't get it at all which is fair enough I guess... a hack is not remotely like going hunting. As an experienced rider, I find hacking dull and just do it to get the horse fit, whereas hunting is thrilling. My horses think the same!

CheerfulYank Thu 20-Dec-12 19:10:29

I don't know much about fox hunting because I'm American, but being chased and ripped apart by dogs sounds terrible.

I'm not against "shooting" though (we just call it all hunting here) and get a lot of my meat that way. It's much less cruel than any factory farm.

Alameda Thu 20-Dec-12 19:11:12

I wish hacking was like hunting!

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:12:18

fox hunting tends to catch the sick, injured foxes obviously which is what you want as these are the ones that tend to cause more problems killing livestock as they cant catch rabbits etc

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 19:13:08

No I don't get it obviously. The same as perhaps you might not get the thrill of multihull racing as opposed to monohull. But at least there's no bloodlust involved in sailing.

As I already said, I have lived in hunting and farming country my whole life and I still don't get it. And I'm glad I don't.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:16:18

Cheerful Yank I would say a clean rifle shot to the head is less stressful to a fox than hunting, but not a poor shot from an unsuitable calibre rifle or being peppered by a 12 bore and running off with its guts hanging out. In the USA you have open spaces and few people per square mile so I imagine its relatively easy to shoot and to do so safely. In the UK there is little open space and lots of people on footpaths, so shooting quarry is less satisfactory in most areas

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 19:19:32

So it seems to me that the thrilling bit, the bit that makes your hair stand on end, is knowing that you are remorselessly chasing down a living animal which will hopefully be torn to pieces by hounds.

This is the only difference between traditional and drag hunting.

Whoever said psychopaths earlier was correct.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:19:38

Exactly Ariel. I am glad we can agree to disagree. Nothing like a good debate smile

Dromedary Thu 20-Dec-12 19:20:47

DialsMavis - they don't accidentally catch and kill foxes. I talked this over with a gamekeeper once. He told me that the hunt was constantly coming onto the land he was in charge of looking after (without permission). They would search out foxes in advance and make sure that the hunt went in that direction, and then claim that the fox had been caught accidentally.

The rich are very very used to getting what they want - the sense of entitlement is taught to them from childhood. They're outraged when something doesn't go their way, and immediately get together to use their power and connections to change things back again. Meanwhile they cheat the system.

I saw a great election poster a while back - "vote for me - I'm a nurse and I love hunting" - the hunting ban was apparently the most important national issue in that part of the country.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:22:52

Agh Itsall FGS its NOTHING to do with the kill!!!!! Why can't you see that from what people have said?? Its the hounds that are the magic bit, working and picking up the scent in unison, a breathtaking sight... and the thrill of the unpredictable chase. 9 out of 10 days hunting I haven't seen the kill, its the staying up with hounds by jumping scary fences.

RubyGates Thu 20-Dec-12 19:22:58

I abhor fox hunting, but I suspect that it is incredibly difficult to prevent people with horses from riding accross land that they have permission to ride across whilst accompanied by their hounds. Not illegal surely?

So it makes an ass of the law. How often is hunting successfully prosecuted?

I'm very interested in the legal implications, because I suspect very strongly that this is an acceptable way to apply the "thin end of the wedge" into our civil liberties. The implication being that people should be prevented from doing something legal because it might lead to them doing something illegal.

The general public can be made to see this as "a good thing" when it's applied to the upper classes, but how long will it be before the same techniques are used more generally?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 19:24:25

PonyofDoom: "Its the hounds that are the magic bit, working and picking up the scent in unison, a breathtaking sight... and the thrill of the unpredictable chase. 9 out of 10 days hunting I haven't seen the kill, its the staying up with hounds by jumping scary fences."

And why can't you do this with drag hunting?

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 19:24:51

I think you should find other ways to get your thrill. I honestly couldn't do anything that could result in an animal getting tore apart. It's despicable.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 19:26:18

The thrilling bit is nothing to do with killing the fox, actually - but in this type of debate, it's usual for antis to use emotive, inaccurate and abusive language. I've already explained why hunting for me is thrilling, but feel free to ignore anything which doesn't support your POV hmm

BCBG Thu 20-Dec-12 19:26:35

What on earth do all the fox lovers think happens to all the foxes that go unchecked around here, now that hunting is banned? They don't retire into a graceful old age near the fire. They don't get quietly euthanised when arthritis or disease becomes a problem. They get run over, or starve to death, or crawl under a hedge to die. I live just outside the edge of a large town, between two farms. The High Street and surrounding lanes have foxes at bins most nights throughout the summer. We have many more foxes than ten years ago, and many are thin and mangy. Several neighbours bait with rat poison to deter them. Some ring the council to 'deal with the problem'. Meanwhile, Farmer A on my left goes out 'lamping' at night and shoots to kill. It's efficient, but he shoots every fox he spots. He doesn't always kill, but I don't think he cares too much about the ones that he injures as long as they die later rather than pester his lambs. Farmer B on the other side is a lovely organic farmer and his foxes are undisturbed, so they breed, and frequently breed beyond the food in his area, hence the increase in back garden foxes along the edge of his land. I don't hunt myself, but I'm sick of the sort of hypocrisy that thinks hunting a fox is cruel but slitting a chicken and dumping it upside down into hot water isn't.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:26:39

Dromeday the 'rich' cliche is rubbish. Its just about priorities eg I always worked in a call centre, ran an ancient car & didn't take holidays so I could hunt. Hill/farmers packs arent expensive. Of course hunting is a huge issue if its YOUR way of life. I am not 'used to getting my own way' I just passionately believe that hunting is morally right and important so I will fight for it

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 19:27:50

Sorry, but it makes me want to bang my head against a wall (and I know it's been corrected): hunting is not illegal. Nor is hunting with hounds.

I grew up in the thick of hunt countryside, in a house with farms on two sides, and I have seen a lot of hunting. I have also killed plenty of animals and I don't have the least objection to it. I can't stand the local hunt because they are unmitigated dickheads who do things like riding through my mum's garden, riding into our primary school playground, riding through fields of pregnant sheep and newborn lambs, etc. etc.

I don't particularly buy the idea that a hunt is a quick or humane way to dispatch a fox. I've seen foxes that got away and I've had to put the bodies in the bin after they die in the ditch. I've also seen foxes shot or poisoned that died in pain. IMO shooting is the best, but obviously not if you're a rubbish shot, which matters.

What bothers me about the hunt isn't therefore so much that I think it is wildly more inhumane than other methods of killing an animal that is preying on livestock. My issue is that killing that animal is made into sport for people. That's disgusting. IME, the people who do it tend to be entitled, cruel, unreflecting tossers - and I do think that's a natural result of making sport of an animal dying in pain.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:28:57

Very well said BCBG. Sadly many antis just hate hunters, they just pretend to themselves its about animal welfare when it isnt.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 19:28:59

RubyGates - good post and something which was raised at the time the ban was going through

But then this ban was never really solely about animal welfare and more about political point scoring and class

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 19:29:14

"Trail hunting rose to prominence in England after the Hunting Act 2004 banned the hunting of mammals with dogs in that jurisdiction. Like drag hunting, trail hunting involves the use of an artificially laid scent to provide hounds with a path to follow. Unlike drag hunting, however, the path set for the hounds in trail hunting is designed to simulate the path that would be taken by a fox or hare attempting to evade the hounds. The path will shift and double-back on itself unpredictably, pass over natural and artificial obstacles, and cross a variety of terrain.

Trail hunting emphasises hound work, exercising and developing the ability of a pack of scent hounds to identify and pursue a prey animal, and the ability of the horse and rider to follow the pack."

So just the same as fox hunting, but without any prospect of grisly death. Please, please explain slowly to me why chasing a living animal is so important to you, and how being solely excited by the possible imminent death doesn't make you a psychopath?

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 19:30:12

LRD as usual you sum it up intelligently without getting furious like I do (if that doesn't look too fawny grin ) hat was what I wanted to say.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:31:32

LRD most packs do not behave in this way though of course accidents happen. My pack has many hundreds of people involved and yes some of them are d*ckheads who let the side down, most are lovely, they are like any cross section of society.

LaCiccolina Thu 20-Dec-12 19:32:48

Class? Dunno class has anything to do with it. I've not hunted fox but have tried other types (non animal related, yup does exist!). It's bloody good fun! I'm not keen on the animal being caught hence my reticence. That doesn't float my boat at all, but the ride is thrilling, it's great action with ur horse, fun with friends, the accoutrements I can understand.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:33:08

and the kill is not the 'sport' part, it's the 'job' part, that is done of necessity.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 19:33:16

Sadly many antis just hate hunters, they just pretend to themselves its about animal welfare when it isnt

Why else would anyone hate hunters if not for animal welfare confused

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 19:33:29

Thanks ariel. blush

pony - I am sure there are some hunts that don't behave like this, but I've never heard of them. Not the local ones where I live now, not the ones my ex hunted with (in three separate parts of the country), not the ones where I've lived previously.

Where exactly are these considerate hunts who don't act like idiots?

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 19:33:40

There have been two posters who have said their hunt did behave like this.

I don't think they are all dickheads, but I think a larger than average percentage are.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:36:57

Itsall- as has been explained, there are very few drag hunts in the UK because farmers don't want them and I wouldn't want to risk my horses. Also as a farmer, I am in favour of killing foxes with hounds. I don't enjoy the kill itself, but I support it. Just as people who eat animals for pleasure don't enjoy the fact that the animal died for their pleasure but still do it.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 19:37:48

BCBG - I havent got a romanticized view of what happens to foxes without hunting, but that doesn't mean that I should like it hmm it shouldn't be a 'this or that' attitude. If it starves to death, dies in a ditch or gets run over it's still ran out a natural life process without humans getting involved in the name of sport. I understand that there may be need to cull, I don't like it, but I understand it. But making it into a sport is not right.

And how many farms I've seen with rickety old chicken wire in an attempt to keep their livestock safe.

And I'm not a hypocrite either, because I don't eat meat, dont wear animal skin etc etc yada yada.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 19:38:07

Try reading the relevant posts ItsAll - for many people following the hunt (now and pre-ban) the kill is nothing to do with why they hunt. The hunt servants used hounds to kill foxes (pre-ban) as this was their raison d'être; having subscribers (who follow on horse or foot) who pay to join the hunt is the way of paying for those hunt servants and maintenance of the hounds. Just because you choose the be a hunt subscriber does not automatically mean you are there for the "thrill of the kill"

I don't have an issue with dogs being used to kill pests. My terrier is a one-dog killing machine - rats, mice, rabbits and she's even had a go at a fox. It's her nature, just as it is the fox's nature to kill every chicken in the hen house or take a newborn lamb as it slithers out of its mother. Dogs kill very quickly - usually a bite to the neck. What happens to the body of the pest afterwards is irrelevant - the fox is dead instantly

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:38:24

On an average day hunting with my pack there are 80-100 mounted followers. There are going to be one or two d*ckheads among that number. The rest of us just keep an eye out! Though we can all make mistakes.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 19:38:24

I'm sure there really are some hunts that are considerate. It's just my opinion that it isn't surprising many are not, as what they're doing isn't an activity that's very conducive to acting in a decent way.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:39:39

Thats a weird thing to say LRD. Hunting is a popular sport that does a lot of good eg the knackering service for farmers. It does far more good than harm.

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Thu 20-Dec-12 19:40:21

Like killing cats? <helpful>

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 19:42:05

I disagree, pony. In fact, I think what you're saying is weird. Funnily enough.

Plenty of farmers I know don't like it either. It's strange how having a hunt ride through your field of pregnant ewes will do that for you, isn't it?

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 19:43:26

Clearly more farmers support it than not, otherwise hunting would not exist

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 19:44:21

I'm aware many farmers support it.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 19:44:27

OK, I accept there may need to be a need to control Foxes. But why can't that be done by a single skilled marksman/gamekeeper? Why all this pageantry surrounding an animals death.

Why can't a person who can shoot well, kill Foxes and those that enjoy the thrill of the hunt go trail hunting?

Then everyone is happy?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 19:47:06

Also, how the feck is drag/trail hunting more damaging to farmers and horses than a traditional hunt? At least a drag/trail hunt would need to ask permission first.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:47:46

Maybe you have a rubbish local pack then, its normal to ride round a flock of sheep. The sheep shouldn't be stressed unless they are being chased round though..this isn't a pro/anti hunt debate though, that's down to the individual farmers to speak to/ban the hunt, its not for the government to take that decision from the farmers.

hatgirl Thu 20-Dec-12 19:48:59

I don't necessarily have a pro or against view - the hunts are traditional in my area and created many jobs and had a vital role/ function in the farming community - the hounds disposed of deadstock, older, weaker foxes (the most likely to be caught) were got and so were less likely to pick on easy targets such as new born lambs/ chickens and the hunt had a social role in an often marginalised rural community. My dad didn't/doesn't let them ride across our land but that was more because of the disturbance to livestock, the mess they made and the risks posed by the many public footpaths on our land. The hunting ban was expected to destroy the traditions of the hunts, I remember standing listening to them blow their horns at a county show a few years before the ban came into affect and there being an overwhelming feeling of sadness and brokenness from the people around that it was all going to be coming to an end. actually made them stronger with higher than ever memberships. Perhaps this was because people who had previously been deterred by not really wanting to see foxes ripped to bits now fancied going along for the fantastic ride. Frankly with or without fox it doesn't really float my boat.

A few years a long the way and last year for the first year for a long time (18 - 20 years) we started losing stock to foxes. There is no way of saying if this has anything to do with the hunting ban but certainly the local farming community is a lot more aware currently of foxes as pests than they were previously - the result... a lot more foxes getting shot! If you have ever seen the mess a fox can make of a chicken shed or of a new born lamb then you may think differently about them.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 19:49:47

Rubbish local pack in several areas? Maybe so ... why were they all rubbish? And where were the 'good' ones you speak of?

This is a pro/anti hunt thing, btw: you may think it's fine to be inconsiderate around livestock unless the farmer bans you, but most people would be disgusted with themselves if they'd done that.

I don't want to see a government ban - I'd like to see people realize they should grow the hell up.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:52:49

Itsall, I did explain that foxes are nocturnal and skulk in hedges and woods etc so are hard to shoot. Lamping is a very efficient way to kill foxes but is not suitable for much of the UK due to the terrain and over crowded nature of the land eg people on footpaths- rifle bullets can travel a mile. Also, I am passionate about hunting and think it works far better because it IS less efficient re numbers than shooting but more efficient at killing the less healthy animals. It also respects a closed season so the young arent killed. I just think hunting is a very good thing. Why ban it if it aint broke?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 19:55:04

If Foxes are skulking in hedges and woods they aren't doing in any harm. If they are coming for your chickens surely not that hard to stay up and shoot them?

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:56:25

When did I say it was OK to be inconsiderate of livestock!?! I have said I am a farmer, I would be cross if my livestock was injured! I would expect an apology and for the offender to be given a b*llocking.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 19:58:31

Itsall foxes don't always march up to your chickens and wait to be shot, they are hard to shoot even for experienced marksmen and very few farmers have a rifle suitable for fox, they mostly have a 12 bore shotgun which makes a mess and wakes the neighbours up!!

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 20:01:10

Anyway, got to go and tuck my horses up for the night and kiss their noses now!

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 20:03:07

tell me then pony what the difference is between your sport, and the sport of badger baiting.

you say 9 times out of 10 the hunt is unsuccessful so it cant be just about population control.

Do you believe that anyone should have the right to kill animals for the thrill of it? the spectacle?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 20:03:20

But surely that is the farmers issue to deal with. Either by securing livestock, or ensuring that he is able to humanely dispatch any Foxes.

On what planet is is necessary to make a game out of killing an animal. Even if hunting was an efficient and humane way of killing Foxes, what sort of person would want to go along just to see a fox being killed.

And if it's not about the killing then go on a drag/trail hunt.

marriedandwreathedinholly Thu 20-Dec-12 20:05:34

Well I'm far less concerned about people on horseback hunting and killing a fox than I am about gun members with a couple of pit bulls hunting people on their estates who have upset them so they can beat them up, stab them or fire off a gun. Know full well how I would prefer to use some adrenalin.

Rindercella Thu 20-Dec-12 20:06:36

The RSPCA is now sadly a political organisation. And it was desperate to score political points by bringing a civil case against the Heythrop Hunt as it's in Cameron's constituency. This civil case cost the RSPCA in excess of £300k, which of course could have been put to good use to help stop people who are knowingly abusing animals, in the most awful conditions.

I sit on the fence (the splinters are painful) about hunting. I am a farmer's daughter and I used to see my father stand for hours, stock still, trying to catch sight of and shoot dead the pesky fox that had slain 22 chickens the previous night. Shooting foxes is a very, very slow process. I used to have my own horses and would drag hunt them. But I never went fox hunting. Am not sure why. I don't like to see cruelty to any animal, perhaps that is why. So when I was living near Sienna, I was never interested in going to see the Palio, or when I have been in Spain, I have never been interested seeing a bull fight. One thing I will say is that all of the horses and hounds I have ever seen hunting have been in tiptop condition

I live down the road from Heythrop and I smiled to see the hunt out at least twice recently (the last time being just a couple of days ago).

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 20:08:20

Agh must go and do the horses! Vicar, its like comparing chalk and cheese, one is hunting, one is baiting!?!? They are different things entirely!? Itsall how do you secure free range chickens in the daytime? Sheep outside on 100s of acres, on fells? I can't understand how you have read all the posts above and still not understand that its not about the kill anymore than meat eaters enjoying an animal having died for them?? Hunting is a hard thing to explain though I guess. Maybe have a day out with a pack and see what you think?

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 20:15:46

The RSPCA has lost sight of its original purpose - spending £300k on this case is just the latest example, when around the country they are closing rescue centres and relying on foster homes instead

Round here we have travellers tethering horses at the side of busy main roads or on scraps of ground on industrial estates with only periodic access to water and feed. This practice is in contravention of the five freedoms which the RSPCA purports to believe in - but you will not see them challenge the travelling community on this

In halal and kosher slaughterhouses up and down the this country, animals are killed by having their throats cut, with no pre-stunning to render them unconscious prior to the cut. This would be illegal in any other slaughterhouse in the country and is grotesque - chickens, for example, are hung by their feet on a conveyor and trundle to their fate one by one. You will not see the RSPCA stand up and protest that this is gross cruelty in the name of a religious practice

This prosecution had nothing to do with animal welfare and everything to do with politicking. Despite the fact it is illegal to use charitable funds for political purposes. David Grant, the new top bod, has a PR background - no surprise then that his kill here is in Cameron's constituency

Roseformeplease Thu 20-Dec-12 20:17:28

And the RSPCA are cutting dozens and dozens of jobs and losing money all the time, yet wanted to spend the money they raise, mostly from money left in wills, on a stupid prosecution to make a point. Bet that really helps all the poor secretaries and administrators and inspectors who have lost their jobs sleep at night.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 20:19:31

i am loving riding, and i will be getting my own horse, but i would no more go along to a hunt than....

well. i dont know but i couldnt. i find the whole thing distasteful in the extreme.

im not understanding the argument as to why badger baiting is different to fox hunting - both are done for sport. what about hare coursing then? how are any of these blood sports different from fox hunting? i really dont understand where any difference lays.
an animal is pursued and killed for the pleasure of those pursuing it. It does not sit comfortably with me, and hunting foxes with dogs is illegal. see here

im surprised you admit doing this illegal activity so openly pony. But it shows that some people have no respect for the laws of the land and believe that they are entitled to break the law because it suits them.

Pantomimedam Thu 20-Dec-12 20:19:38

What the Heythrop were doing is illegal. They were arrogant enough to think they were above the law. The RSPCA did us all a favour by making it clear they aren't - and that being bessie mates with Cameron isn't a free pass to flout the law. (As Rebekah and Coulson have also discovered.)

The CPS and police should refund the money it cost the RSPCA to bring this case - if the authorities had been doing their job, it wouldn't have been left to a charity to uphold the law.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 20:21:23

Talking about the RSPCA's political influences is beside the point in this debate, they've still prosecuted someone breaking the law.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 20:42:18

Vicar, your horse will LOVE to hunt, I think it's a shame really that so many horses don't experience something so natural and thrilling to them. Hunting is about the chase, a natural thing that humans have always done for food and sport. Foxes have always been hunted by man or wolves. Baiting is about a trapped animal being goaded and attacked, there is no comparison at all. Truly, there is nothing distasteful about hunting, quite the opposite, it is very good for the soul. As I said before I have no respect for this law because it was made against all the principles of liberal democracy, ie that law must be made with the CONSENT of those it effects, which the hunting act does not. It was made for cynical reasons and forced though unconstitutionally by use of the parliament act so I do not consider it legitimate. I have not said I am above the law; I have said that I would be prepared to take the consequences of breaking it to stand up for my beliefs.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 20:47:50

No, the horse wouldnt love to hunt. It would love to run alongside other horses in the countryside.

'Truly, there is nothing distasteful about hunting, quite the opposite, it is very good for the soul"
This is THE most astounding comment I've ever read on mumsnet. What planet are you on. How is another animal getting destroyed in a barbaric way, its life ended your enjoyment good for the soul and anything BUT distasteful?

And in your last comment you are showing that you think yourself above the law if you think you have the right to break it.

I don't even know why I'm engaging with you, you're unbelievable.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 20:48:08

'Vicar, your horse will LOVE to hunt, I think it's a shame really that so many horses don't experience something so natural and thrilling to them. Hunting is about the chase, a natural thing that humans have always done for food and sport.'

I hate to break it to you, but horses are not humans. Nor are they meat eaters. So no, not natural to them.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 20:49:15

ie that law must be made with the CONSENT of those it effects

You do realise that couldn't possibly happen in all cases, right?

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 20:52:11

And there's a few things that humans once did, but died out once we became civilised.

PartyFops Thu 20-Dec-12 20:53:03

Hunting is great fun, but I dont really care whether its drag hunting or fox hunting. Galloping over land like that jumping gates and hedges is a massive thrill for an experienced rider.

Is it really much worse than putting rat poison down and the rat dying a slow and painful death. The foxes need controlling.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 20:54:22

Horses have hunted with humans for 1000's of years, It is now deeply ingrained in them.
I cannot think of another law that doesn't fit this category Ghost, can you?
I am willing to take the consequences of breaking the law, hence I do not think I am above it.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 20:54:56

No, it's not.

Why do you think it is, pony?

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 20:55:16

Society has actually become less civilized in many ways Ghost.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 20:56:38

Because I have hunted horses for many seasons over about 26 years and I have a close bond with them

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 20:56:58

So you think every law must be made with the consent of those it effects?

I'm sure the paedophiles would LOVE that one.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 20:57:28

Ah. Anecdotes then. Pity.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 20:57:50

Society has actually become less civilized in many ways Ghost

-bangs again against brick wall-

People like you are holding society back with archaic traditions.

Abra1d Thu 20-Dec-12 20:58:23

Foxes are killed quickly by hounds specially bred to kill by severing of their spinal cords. A lot more pleasant than dying of starvation when they are old and their teeth have fallen out and they can not hunt. A few years ago I heard some dreadful screaming. My husband told me it was an old fox, having its eyes pecked out by a magpie.

Why do people thunk there are old people's homes for wild animals? Or humane euthanasia? Fox hunting tends to kill old or slow foxes, the ones to whom the scenarios above are likely to occur. The extreme adrenalin does not go on for hours at a time, it is sporadic. Round us, the hunt is silent for some hours at times, because they have lost the scent.

I do not agree with digging them out, though, once they have gone to earth.

Chances are if you are buying a frozen turkey for Christmas you are guilty of condoning far more animal cruelty than anyone supporting hunting.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 20:59:45

Chances are if you are buying a frozen turkey for Christmas you are guilty of condoning far more animal cruelty than anyone supporting hunting

This is one line I am absolutely sick of hearing. As I've said, I myself am veggie, but even if I wasn't - it doesn't mean people should automatically be okay with fox hunting.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 21:01:55

Foxes are killed quickly by hounds specially bred to kill by severing of their spinal cords. A lot more pleasant than dying of starvation when they are old and their teeth have fallen out and they can not hunt

Which is what you and your kind have made yourselves believe to cleanse your already decidedly dodgy concious.

There is nothing quick about being hunted down to the death. There is nothing pleasant about being torn apart by a pack of dogs. It's not a case of one dog running over and severing it's spinal cord - the fox is set upon like the saying goes 'a pack of dogs'.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 21:03:52

Foxes are sometimes killed quickly by the hunt. And other times not.

Anyone who drives a car knows that animals also die on our roads. Sometimes quickly and sometimes slowly and in horrible pain.

The difference is, in the second scenario, no-one is deliberately setting out to enjoy an activity that ends in the painful death of an animal.

It is the human enjoyment I find sick, not how much or little pain the animal suffers.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 21:04:24

"Talking about the RSPCA's political influences is beside the point in this debate, they've still prosecuted someone breaking the law."

It very much is the point - they choose who to prosecute on a political basis, not an animal welfare one. Travellers regularly beat horses and occasionally drown them at Appleby Horse Fair, but you will not see the RSPCA bringing prosecutions, or even intervening - despite the fact they are breaking the law

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 21:06:32

The fox dies instantly, from a bite to the back of the neck usually. What happens after that is irrelevant

Abra1d Thu 20-Dec-12 21:06:35

Yes, but the death occurs by the first hound severing the cord.

I do not hunt. I eat little meat. I am the person who humanely kills the birds and animals knocked over my motorists.

I just think the moral outrage overe hunting is illogical.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 21:09:27

Of course it is - because it's not purely about animal welfare

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 21:09:48

I just think the moral outrage overe hunting is illogical

Many other countries would disagree. Trust the UK to want to continue such a barbaric sport in the name of tadition.

TheOriginal - it isn't at all. You're just trying to divert from the point at hand. In questioning the RSPCA's moral stance and pointing out it's political, you're trying to pooh pooh what they're doing against fox hunting to make it seem unnecessary. When in fact it is very much necessary, whatever the reasons the RSPCA have behind it.

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 21:11:01

I don't think you have any right to comment about animal welfare if you feel fox hunting is okay, because you obviously have no interest or no care for animals and their welfare.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 20-Dec-12 21:11:53

A few years ago I heard some dreadful screaming. My husband told me it was an old fox, having its eyes pecked out by a magpie. Wow your husband has very specific hearing! Is he definitely sure it wasn't a crow or a raven or an owl?

GhostShip Thu 20-Dec-12 21:14:52

And the fact of the matter is, if it's all about the chase as you lot claim it is, you can do drag hunting. But you don't.

Which is extremely telling.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 21:16:44

Rubbish. I've seen plenty of hunts. If you think the fox is always quickly killed by one bite you've clearly haven't.

Foxes run a long way, and will injure themselves as they run, as well as being terrified. Some get away and die quietly somewhere else; others don't and get killed by the hunt in the illegal way.

My question is: what sort of human being enjoys all of this? I'm aware animals suffer pain as direct or indirect results of humans all the time and I'm personally perfectly ok with the idea that sometimes, an animal has to be killed to protect livestock. But to enjoy it and to pretend it's all good fun for the fox right up to that last snap of the jaws ... bollocks.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 21:19:50

How many kills have you seen, LRD?

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 21:22:12

Three (and only one of those remotely close by). I try very hard to avoid them. But, as I have already said, I have had to bin dead foxes after a hunt and if you were telling the truth, I wouldn't ever have to do that.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 21:25:17

absolutely agree with lrd

i think anyone telling themselves this is acceptable for a civilised society is kidding themselves.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:26:26

LRD I have hunted since 1984 and never seen what you describe. I think you have made it up frankly. And of course hunting is inbred into horses, they have hunted with man since the dawn of time, as have dogs. You only have to see their reaction to the hounds and horn to realise that the instinct runs deep. Every hunter on here has said that they have no pleasure in the kill (except to be pleased with the hounds for doing a good job).The paedophile law isn't remotely the same as it effects children too. No one agrees with paedophilia except the perpetrators.

Abra1d Thu 20-Dec-12 21:27:12

Owls do not generally eat carrion. It might have been a crow, but we have a lot of magpies in our area.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:28:55

Magpies and crows do regularly peck the eyes out of sick lambs and dying foxes etc

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 21:29:28

so why is it ok to break the law. and why do you believe you are above it?

what is the difference between this and hare causing? similar set up isnt there?

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 20-Dec-12 21:30:01

And it was definitely the eyes that were being eaten? Your dh could get a lot of work on the conference circuit with a trick like that!

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 21:30:11

I think accusing me of lying is probably not the best way to get yourself out of a sticky spot in an argument.

You are the one pretending hunting is somehow 'natural' and fun, despite making patently incorrect claims. Horses have not hunted with man 'since the dawn of time'. They were only tamed relatively recently, and as far as we know, were still being hunted for food in the paleolithic times.

I've seen the reaction of hounds - I don't believe it's instinct at all. Have you never seen the number of hounds who don't make it as hunt dogs? Then maybe you would understand that what you think is 'instinct' is simply selection.

If you could justify why humans enjoy making sport out of killing an animal, I could at least begin to understand. But instead you make up silly stories about a made up past ... that is absurd, and not credible.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:30:27

You mean coursing? I went coursing once to see what I thought and it was fine except the betting.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 21:31:05

'Magpies and crows do regularly peck the eyes out of sick lambs and dying foxes etc'

No shit. That's because they're carrion birds. They're naturally designed to do that.

OTOH, horses, for example, are not naturally designed to be hunters.

See the difference yet?

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 20-Dec-12 21:31:09

Oh and I agree with everything LRD is saying.

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 21:31:12

I haven't read all the posts (sorry), but I have seen many, many kills.

Hunting is unnacceptable and utterly vile.

Most countryside people pro-hunting - NOT TRUE
Foxes (and deer) are killed quickly by hounds - NOT TRUE
Hounds are looked after and kept in good conditions - NOT TRUE
Hounds live natural life-spans in Hunt kennels - NOT TRUE
Hunts never trespass - NOT TRUE
Hunts never go out to intentionally break the law - NOT TRUE
Foxes are never bred for hunting - NOT TRUE
Artificial earths aren't made by Hunt staff - NOT TRUE
Hunting is an effective form of pest control - NOT TRUE

...and don't get me started on the underground dog fights otherwise known as terrierwork.

Anyone who finds pleasure in this sort of 'sport' has serious problems.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:31:29

Vicar I have explained several times that if a law is morally wrong it should be broken and the consequences suffered. That is not the same as thinking one is above the law

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 20-Dec-12 21:32:02

Dogs also really really love bells: just ask Pavlov.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:34:06

I don't think you know much about horses then LRD?? Of course they don't want to kill the fox but they want to be a part of the hunt. My old horse used to go crazy when she heard a fox bark, hounds in cry or even saw a hunt lorry go along the road, she jumped a 5 bar gate with me from standstill once while hacking as she wanted to catch up with the hunt. They love it.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 20-Dec-12 21:36:12

So they like everything about hunting, but 'of course' they don't like killing the fox? Have you thought about just taking them out for a ride?

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 21:37:46

I live in the countryside.
I fucking abhor hunting.
Has anyone said it yet:
The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:38:21

tetlymel; hunting is acceptable and supported by most farmers landowners etc
the many kills I have seen have all been quick
I have never seen a hound in poor condition out hunting
hounds are PTS when they are too unsound to hunt
Hunts do trespass accidentally. I have never been on a hunt where there was deliberate trespass but have seen hounds called back when they strayed.
Hunts vary in their response to the Act. There are many loopholes
No one breeds foxes these days that I have heard of, there are too many about anyway!
Artificials exist but from the old days, they are not built now as above
Hunting is effective at culling sick weak foxes.
Most fox hunters are pretty well adjusted IMHO smile

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 21:39:22

Pony but you don't get to decide what's 'morally wrong'. You're morals are clearly different to the majority.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:39:29

My horses get bored hacking. They LOVE hunting.

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 21:41:13

Pony anecdotes aren't facts. I've never seen a badger drink a cup of tea. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:42:24

My morals and those of about 90% of farmers, many/most vets and grooms, and 40-50 ish % of the population? Not sure what the current stats are. Anyway laws and morals arent the same thing or adultery would be illegal

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 21:43:58

No, Pony, it isn't supported by most farmers. You're wrong.
All the kills you've seen since 1984 have been quick? You're lying.
Hounds are shot at around the age of 5. This isn't even half they're natural lifespan.
Hunts trespass intentionally regularly, and nationally.
Hunts are been very vocal in their intent to break the Hunting Act.
Foxes are still bred and are also captured and then released for hunting.
Yes, artificial earths are still made and found all the time.
Hunting is NOT effective at killing predators. Sick, weak foxes are not predators. Since when does digging out only reach sick foxes?
No, anyone who enjoys killing for pleasure is mentally ill.

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 21:44:49

You're not sure what the currents stats are.
So you'll just make them up.
Ok, I can do that.
Based on my experience:
98% of the population are against hunting.
80% of vets are against hunting.
100% of foxes are against hunting.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:45:01

People can only judge on their own life experiences. Nothing is cut and dried anyway. Statistics tend to aid the pro hunters but in the end dont tell us as much as life experience

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 21:46:07

You're not sure what the current stats are Pony? Then why say that most farmers are pro-hunting?

The vast majority of the UK population, both urban AND rural are against fox and deer hunting - FACT. Even the Countryside Alliance have been forced to agree to that in their marketing.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 21:46:07

tutt - my point exactly.

so when a buglar thinks the law is morally wrong because someone has more than he does is that ok to break that law?

if a man believes that he has a right to sex with his wife does it mean its ok for him to rape her and break that law?

is it ok for people to drink and then in a car despite the consequences being they could kill someone, if they believe that its ok?

if its just about what one believes to be right and not about sticking to the law of the land then we are going to be in a mess. The law if there for a reason. if its ok for you to break the law then why not others - would you say the same if someone hurt your horses because they believed their morals were more right than yours and sod the law?

what a ridiculous argument for breaking the law.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:46:29

Tufty it depends on the poll and the questions asked, I hope you know that? The CA produce some very different stats. What % of the population is rural and knows anything about the countryside?? Hmmm

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 21:46:42

It is the human enjoyment I find sick, not how much or little pain the animal suffers


Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:47:31

Tetley if 90% of farmers weren't in favour of hunting the sport would stop tomorrow

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 21:48:10

'Statistics tend to aid the pro hunters but in the end dont tell us as much as life experience'

Feel free to quote those, then. If they exist.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:48:11

Itsall WHO enjoys the kill?? I have never met anyone who does

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 21:48:58

Yep and the Countryside Alliance was rapped on the knuckles by the Advertising Standards Agency for using the false 59% stat. They now concede that the VAST majority of urban and rural populations are, of course, against hunting.

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 21:49:17

Exactly Vicar.
Pony of course I know that. But patronise away. You, as a hunter, cannot claim to know more about the countryside than a non hunter. You know that right?

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 21:50:34

pony - you don't enjoy hunting? So why do you do it, then?

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 21:50:35

No, Pony, that isn't true either. I'm starting to understand why you're called 'Pony'. Of course hunting would exist anyway - it's not about farmers isn't about a tiny minority of people who enjoy killing animals. Freaks, not farmers.

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 21:52:11

Where are you getting your 90% of farmers ate pro hunt*. is it from CA? How many farmers did they ask? In what region? What was the demographic? What sort of farmers?

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 21:52:20

I can't believe I'm debating with someone who went to a hare coursing event and thought there was nothing wrong with it.


VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 21:52:25

so if no one enjoys the kill then why do it?

the pursuit leads to the kill

if i didnt enjoy that i would vote with my feet. as i do and will.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 21:54:26

Well, vicar, if you define the precise split-second the fox dies as 'the kill' and everything else as 'great fun! For me! For the horse! For the fox, who just loves to run!', then you can pretend it's only the kill you don't enjoy, while the rest is legit to enjoy.

Or somesuch rubbish.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:55:38

Check out the Countryside Alliance website! Go to the hunting section and check out articles such as also this is worth a look

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 21:56:02

Nobody enjoys the kill - another LIE!

I've never been to a Hunt when a kill isn't celebrated at the time and afterwards. It's like watching fans of the losing football team if they don't kill a fox or deer. Sickos.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 21:56:37

Your links don't work.

But no, thanks, I'm perfectly able to make up my own mind.

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 21:57:26

Or, for a real picture of what's going on, refer to the League Against Cruel Sports, here.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 21:57:54

Itsall WHO enjoys the kill?? I have never met anyone who does


So if no one who hunts enjoys the kill, why not do drag/trail hunting? The only difference is the kill.

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 21:58:46

You might want to check out this website pony

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 21:59:04
Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 21:59:15

You need approx 90% minimum of farmers for any hunt to be able to operate over their country ie to cross the land effectively. Sigh, I have already explained why I enjoy hunting. It is better to go and see yourself. I don't think there is anything wrong with hunting and killing foxes. We will have to agree to differ.

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 21:59:40

If the Hunting Act was failing, the Countryside Alliance and other pro-hunting groups would be pleased, not complaining all the time!

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 21:59:57

x posted with tetley

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 22:00:15

I'm not wild about the league against cruel sports, FWIW. I think they are biased too. But then ... they're not arguing for killing things and enjoying it, so I can cut them some slack.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:00:52

Haha haven't looked at the League website for ages. They hardly have any members left now apparently :0 Hope they don't close down for the sake of democracy and freedom of speech- even though they would like to ban me smile

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 22:00:56

I have seen for myself. The hunters called me all sorts of charming names.

lidlqueen Thu 20-Dec-12 22:01:43

* I don't think there is anything wrong with hunting and killing foxes* I agree with you ponyofdoom - factory farming is far crueller.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:02:25

Don't agree with that Tufty but I have spat on and physically attacked by antis.

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:02:29

No, that's not true, it's the landowners, not simpy farmers. Have a look at certain areas of North Wales and the West Country, in which hunts are routinely criticised for trespassing. What about the horrendous havoc caused by Hunts on roads and railways? I supposed that doesn't happen in your silly world either, Pony.

As I've already said, I've been to and investigated that activities of many, many hunts across the country, for many years.

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 22:03:06

Pony you know they've got hardly any members? Is this CA propaganda?
In fact, you've done me a favor. My membership had lapsed. I'm going to renew it right now.

hatgirl Thu 20-Dec-12 22:03:14

tetleymel i'm not entirely sure where the whole deer thing has come from - just a completely different issue/ debate to fox hunting. For starters deer are prized for their meat and head and as little damage as possible is done to the carcass during culling. Fox are seen as a pest and are therefore treated differently. Not debating the rights and wrongs of either but fox hunting and deer hunting are two entirely different things done in different ways!

The animals of farthing wood have a lot to answer for in my opinion.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:03:49

exactly its - if the difference between a hunt and a drag hunt is the kill then why hunt if the kill brings no pleasure?

really interesting link tetley and very informative - that link does have stats. and post mortem evidence after a kill which shows a quick bite to the neck is bollocks.

i have no idea how any right minded individual can believe any blood sport has any place in a so called civilised society.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:04:13

Quite right lidlqueen.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 22:04:32

pony, why don't you go and educate yourself a little, 'see for yourself', as you so patronizingly put it, by doing a little real time in the countryside - not as a hunter, but maybe wandering around the places where dying animals limp off to die. You go do a shift at your local vet's (if you're lucky, he'll have to go out to shoot another perfectly healthy horse so twit has jumped over a hedge while pissed and broken its leg or ripped its chest to bits), or you go watch while your non-farming neighbours work out how to explain to the children why a load of hounds and horses burst into their playground. You go and sort out the miscarrying ewes for the farmer who doesn't give a flying fuck one way or the other about the hunt, but who's still been badly treated by them because they think an 'sorry' after the event makes it ok.

Maybe after you've done that, you will stop pretending it's only you who really knows about hunting, eh?

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 22:04:34

Don't agree with that Tufty but I have spat on and physically attacked by antis

Is that where 'life experience' says more than statistics?

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:04:58

Spat at? Two anti-hunt campaigners have been killed by Hunt staff (Mike Hill and Tom Worby). Hunters have also been prosecuted for riding over anti-hunters and using extreme physical violence.

But these are people who kill for kicks, so what can one expect?!

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:05:54

but besides anything

it is against the law! or should we just all pick the laws we are going to subscribe to?

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 22:06:52

Some people find fancy ways to pretend they're above the law.

lidlqueen Thu 20-Dec-12 22:07:00

i have no idea how any right minded individual can believe any blood sport has any place in a so called civilised society

foxes bite heads off lambs which costs farmers sixty quid a time, they don't even do it because they are hungry, just for bloodsport and to teach their cubs.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:07:10

Are you bloody joking? What about those murderers who flew a mini helicopter into a hunt follower and decapitated him?!

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:07:16

I explained before that there are many differences between a drag and a quarry hunt that make the drag hunt unsuitable for many horses and riders and there are very few in the UK anyway! I never said the kill was a bite to the back of the neck. The kills I have seen have been so quick it is irrelevant to argue over exactly how they die. A terrier with a rat is a good analogy though. Do the antis think a terrier killing a rat is cruel? Again it is a quick death. Neither the hound nor terrier wants to get bitten

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:07:58

Hunting is not illegal, just to be clear about breaking laws and all that

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:08:46

Yeah many antis are REALLY f*cked up, I have seen them in action, not nice.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:09:01

i will ask again, very politely

it is against the law! or should we just all pick the laws we are going to subscribe to?

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:09:32

I think you'll find that the nutcase who decided it was a good idea to grab the propellors of a gyrocopter was at fault. Yes he died, but it was through his own stupidity.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:09:37

hunting with dogs ill illegal.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 22:09:44

lidl - yes, that's because they're wild animals. What's your excuse?

pony - again, you ignore the other bits of this event - the chase? I'm sure foxes love that bit, right? But then .... you told us they're the weakest and sickest so I'm sure the chase is really short, right? Given what someone said about a sick fox being too weak to stop magpies picking out its eyes (get me the violins ...), that must be, what, two metres?

It's amazing you lot ever manage a hunt, if all you say is true, isn't it?

lidlqueen Thu 20-Dec-12 22:10:20

I'm with ya ponyofdoom

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:10:33

Hunting with a pack of hounds is illegal.

I look forward to the day that terrierwork is too.

Bring on custodial sentences for the Hunting weirdos too. That would be nice.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:11:31

No it is not. It is legal, for example, to use hounds to flush a fox to the gun - this is classed as hunting and is legal

lidlqueen Thu 20-Dec-12 22:11:53

attempting to ban hunting was so New Labour, bleeeeeee

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:12:15

Mike Hill and Tom Worby's tragic deaths were accidents caused by them climbing onto moving vehicles during hunts. Worby was a kid recruited by a neo nazi anti. I have seen many sickening deliberate attacks on hunters and their animals by antis.

lidlqueen Thu 20-Dec-12 22:12:54

it's called excersising hounds mel and it is not illegal

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:13:22

Yes, including attacks on horses with razor blades. Nice, for so called animal lovers. But then it has nothing to do with animals

lidlqueen Thu 20-Dec-12 22:14:05

your average anti doesn't give a fuck about foxes

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:14:29

Look forward all you like, Mel - until that day, when hell freezes over, my terriers will continue to kill vermin and thank god for it

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:14:49

What is not? Hunting with a pack of hounds? Er, yes it is LadyFT.

By the way, an Ipsos-MORI poll in December 2010 found that: 76% of the public support the ban on fox hunting; 84% support the ban on deer and stag hunting; and 84% support the ban on hare coursing and hunting. The polling also found that support was almost as high in rural communities, where 71% of the public support the ban on fox hunting.

lidlqueen Thu 20-Dec-12 22:15:32

I noticed lots of hunt job ads in the h and h so they must be still flourishing, and long may they do so.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:15:36

True, lidl - our local poly used to have signs up offering £10 and a packet of veggie butties to anyone fancying a day trying to get hounds to run onto a railway line

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:15:58

LRD I am not being patronising I am just trying to explain my point of view, sorry its not the same as yours :/
I have always lived in the countryside and seen all sides, good and bad. Hunting isn't perfect nor is anything in life. I just happen to support it for many good reasons.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 22:16:17

I explained before that there are many differences between a drag and a quarry hunt that make the drag hunt unsuitable for many horses and riders and there are very few in the UK anyway

But you haven't explained what the differences are. One follows a fake scent laid by a human. The other followed the scent of a fox with an aim to kill. What other differences are there?

As for there not being many drag hunts, that is a crap excuse. If people didn't want to kill Foxes, but wanted to experience the thrill of the hunt then they would drag hunt.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:16:35

Polls show people would bring back flogging and hanging - fancy that too?

It is not illegal, I have already explained why

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:16:49

it is illegal.

this from the Defra site

im a police officer and if i ever get the chance to be wildlife officer as is one of my colleagues i would not be ignoring the issue.

The Hunting Act 2004 bans the hunting with dogs of all wild mammals in England and Wales, including fox, deer, hare and mink, except where it is carried out in accordance with the conditions of one of the exemptions set out in the Act. It also bans all hare coursing.

Exemptions in the Hunting Act allow the following activities to take place in limited circumstances: stalking and flushing out; use of a dog below ground, in the course of stalking and flushing out, to protect birds being kept or preserved for shooting; hunting rats and rabbits; retrieval of hares which have been shot; falconry; recapture of wild mammals; and research and observation.

Exempt hunting can only take place either on land which belongs to the hunter or which he has been given permission to use for that purpose by the occupier or, in the case of unoccupied land, by a person to whom it belongs. Permission may also be given by a police constable in respect of the recapture or rescue of a wild mammal.

A person convicted in a magistrates’ court of an offence under the Act will be liable to a maximum fine of £5,000. The court also has the power to make an order against a convicted person for the forfeiture of any relevant dog, vehicle or hunting article.

While Defra retains policy responsibility for the Hunting Act, enforcement of the Act is a matter for the Home Office and individual police forces. The Act only covers hunting with dogs in England and Wales. Separate legislation covers hunting with dogs in Scotland.

Relevant legislation
The full text of the Hunting Act 2004, as has a detailed explanation accompanying it.

One of the exemptions in the Hunting Act allows the use of a single dog below ground to protect game birds or wild birds which are being kept for shooting. It is a condition of the exemption that the manner in which the dog is used complies with any Code of Practice approved by the Secretary of State. The British Association for Shooting and Conservation has produced a Code of Practice which has been approved by the Secretary of State, and therefore has the force of law. The Code of Practice is accompanied by a Good Practice Guide.

Key publications and documents
More information about hunting with dogs is on GOV.UK
Further background information on hunting, including the report on the Inquiry into Hunting with Dogs in England and Wales
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Page last modified: 18 October 2012

You may also be interested in:

Hunting with dogs - GOV.UK
Hunting Act 2004
Committee of Inquiry into Hunting

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:17:49

Yes, the RSPCA, League Against Cruel Sports, Animal Aid - those animal-hating antis. It's hilarious that you are saying that people are against hunting and they hate animals. HA!

So, you support terrierwork, LadyFT? And all dogfighting then I presume? Sickening.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:18:38

Tetley the poll results depend on the question you ask, LACS polls are always loaded of course, its about PR and stats can tell you anything you want. Hunting doesn't effect the vast majority of the population, why should they know about it or care about it?

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:19:09

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VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:19:39

is everyone just going to continue to ignore the facts which i have just posted above take directly from the Defra site?

ok then.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:20:30

nice one theoriginal. very intelligent debate there i see. i think you just lost the argument.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:20:45

There are few drag hunts because the farmers don't want them. The land is cut up for no benefit. I have explained that drag hunting is more suitable for thoroughbreds as it is more geared to jumping and short, fast lines rather than a steadier full day. It does not contribute to pest control.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:20:56

Terrier work and hunting have nothing to do with dog fighting, as I'm sure you're aware

The work my terriers do is invaluable on a farm, I'll not apologise to ignorant emos for it

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:21:40

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tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:22:11

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LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 22:22:28

Who are the 'ignorant emos', the original? People who disagree with you and whose argument defeats you?

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:22:56

Tetley over the years I have seen antis: hitting hounds with walking sticks, sawing at a horses mouth to pull it down (fail) spraying anti mate in hounds eyes, throwing anti mate bottles at horses, driving a van into a horse's legs cutting it, calling hounds onto main roads, hitting a man with a nail studded stave causing a horrible injury, I could go on.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:23:12

Snort, that's right Mel, keep telling yourself that

There's a big difference in caring for animals and being sentimental about them

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:23:25

LadyFT - terrierwork involves a terrier forced underground to fight a fox. You are deluded if you don't recognise this.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 22:24:22

I have explained that drag hunting is more suitable for thoroughbreds as it is more geared to jumping and short, fast lines rather than a steadier full day

Trail hunting is designed to replicate live quarry hunting as much as possible and involves simulating the search in covert for a scent to follow. The laying of trails, it is claimed, is carried out in such a way as to mirror the movements of hunted live quarry with the result that the progress of the hunt is less predictable and of a slower pace than that of a drag hunt. There is more emphasis on hound work in trail hunting than in drag hunting. The trail scent purportedly used is animal-based; there is little information on the type of scent used but in the case of traditional fox hunting packs fox urine is often claimed to be used. The reason given for the use of animal based scents is that if the Hunting Act is repealed the hounds do not have to be re-trained to hunt the natural quarry scent.

"While the Hunting Act is in place, one of the several legal alternatives to provide activity for Hunts is trail hunting. This is for hounds to follow an artificial scent, which has been laid in such a way as to mimic a real fox hunt. It would ideally not be the flat out gallop typical of drag hunting, would take in different types of country and be a challenge for the hounds. It is one of the ways to keep the infrastructure of Hunts intact until such time as repeal of the Hunting Act can be achieved." Alastair Jackson (Director of the Masters of Foxhounds Association)

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 22:24:24

Theorigami ridiculous post to Vicar. You've never needed to call the police yourself I take it?
while we're on the subject can one of the murderers or hunters, whichever, tell me why you wear those ridiculous red jackets? You know you all look really silly. Right?

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:24:27

I go out most Mondays hunting. I am hunting within the law. It is not illegal

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:26:12

Yes I have called the police, and they have generally been very helpful when it comes to real rural crimes

Getting twitchy when I make a jibe about minister, yet it's fine to refer to pro-hunting people as sickos, psychos, weirdos etc. bizarre

lidlqueen Thu 20-Dec-12 22:26:18

the only people i know that go hunting are 100 per cent invested in the countryside, being farmers who, as i said earlier, lose £60 per lamb to foxes. that's their livelihood.
round here buses of crazed hippies/antis from London actually bring captured urban foxes and set them free. In the middle of sheep country.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:26:55

Tetley you are talking b*llocks, why would a hunt shoot a healthy hound of 5 that it had carefully bred and trained? It wouldn't, there would be no reason to! And hunting isn't illegal, there are lots of options under the Act eg flushing to guns, exercising hounds (with accidental kills) is legal, hunting with an eagle- all the packs have found ways to continue. Hunting will always survive.

Pantomimedam Thu 20-Dec-12 22:27:11

Many farmers I know don't want hunts on their land due to the damage they cause.

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:27:13

Yeah, sentimental fools who'd rather not see domestic pets ripped apart by hounds. Sentimental fools who'd rather not see a pregnant hind chased for miles and brought to her knees before being ripped apart by hounds. Sentimental fools who'd rather not see terriers pushed down holes in the cubhunting season, so that they can rip them apart. Sentimental fools who'd rather not see a hound bred, just to be prematurely shot.

You're never going to win this argument in the public's eye. It's so clearly wrong and perverted.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:27:13

Hunt servants wear hunting pink for tradition and also to make them stand out from the rest of the field and at a distance. They look smart IMO which of course is different to yours

lidlqueen Thu 20-Dec-12 22:28:08

tell me why you wear those ridiculous red jackets?
it's the original hi viz jacket, silly.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 22:28:14

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 18:46:07
Ariel the fox is an amoral predator which has a very good chance of escape

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:20:45
There are few drag hunts because the farmers don't want them. The land is cut up for no benefit...It does not contribute to pest control.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:28:25

We don't have to win it in the public eye - I'm happy to go on as we are until it gets repealed, which it will eventually

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 22:28:26

Those London weirdos eh? what can you do? Maybe you could hunt them?

Why do you wear ridiculous red coats?

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:28:39

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tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:28:55

So, where do the hounds go, Pony? I'm starting to doubt that you're involved in hunting at all. You seem to know so little of what goes on in every Hunt in the UK!

I said hunting with a pack is illegal. Jeez - read the posts!

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:29:29

See post above re coats

No, I leave London people to mind their own business - pity they don't extend me the same courtesy

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:30:18

where, have i referred to anyone as a phsyco or a wierdo? please do find and quote me

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:30:25

We hunt with a pack every Monday - we are not breaking the law as it stands I can assure you.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:30:53


spelling gone to pot. i challenge you to find one quote from me that stated that.

lidlqueen Thu 20-Dec-12 22:31:12

Maybe you could hunt them? grin that's so slipstream....I am off....tally ho!

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:31:47

Ooo, LadyFT, please make a lovely big donation to the Countryside Alliance's Fighting for Repeal campaign. That would be lovely.

And then go to your nearest drain and empty the rest of your bank account into it.

The Act is not going to be repealed. In fact, it's going to be tightened. It's good news.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:31:50

Me too - hounds please!

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:32:17

im waiting for theoriginal to show me where i said any of the things she is accusing me of.

still waiting.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 20-Dec-12 22:32:34

You think? Well, we'll see

Night night, been fun running round in circles as usual on the hunting debate

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:32:51

Tufty you are running short of arguments if you have to attack a coat colour smile Most followers wear black or ratcatcher anyway, I have never worn 'red.'
Itsall you have muddled drag with trail hunting. Nothing wrong with either, but they are different sports. Neither have the important pest control service for farmers.
Tetley 'terriers forced underground' haha I spend my life trying to stop my terrier going down holes and getting into fights, she loves it because she is a terrier, that is the whole point of being a terrier!

TuftyFinch Thu 20-Dec-12 22:33:15

But I don't live in London. Despite what you seem to think, you don't have first dibs on the countryside. I live in a very rural area, there's mud and everything. Does my opinion mean more?
If I canvassed the population of this village c500, 85% would be anti fox hunting. Including farmers.

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:33:41

You are going out with the intention to hunt a fox with a pack of hounds? Then yes, you are breaking the law.

Ponyofdoom Thu 20-Dec-12 22:33:46

Yeah I am logging off too, cheers for the debate it was fun smile

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 22:34:54

pony, does it not occur to you - no one cares what the distinctions are between the sports you mention. It is monumentally boring. Nor does anyone care what you wear (except for thinking it's obviously a sport for the rich if it matters so much!).

People just care that their countryside isn't overrun by braying hooray henrys who've no idea of the realities.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:34:55

im still waiting.....

i would like any of the pro hunters to show me where i said anything personal such as those who hunt are - and i quote - *psychos or weirdos.....

but insults were levelled at me. i believe i hold the moral high ground on that score. i have not needed to resort to personal attacks about profession or self.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 20-Dec-12 22:35:20

<holds hand up>

I said psychopath...

Psychopathy is a personality disorder that has been variously characterized by shallow emotions (including reduced fear, a lack of empathy , and stress tolerance), coldheartedness , egocentricity , superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity, criminality , antisocial behavior, a lack of remorse, and a parasitic lifestyle.

If the cap fits...

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:35:41

funny how no one has been able to quote where i said that then.


VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:37:48

if the best you can do is tell me i should be fitting someone up then fabulous. You showed your true colours there theoriginal how very ironic your name is.

tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:38:27

As these hunters seem unable to understand the law, let me clarify.

Putting more than two hounds into woodland, gorse or a cover, where they are likely to pick up a scent is illegal.

The hounds running ahead of the hunter / field, and are baying/in cry, this is a sign that a scent has been picked up, and that the hounds are in pursuit of something.

Baying or hounds in cry must be called off immediately, by the use of a horn, a whip or by a voice calls.

Flushing out with hounds

No more than two dogs can be used in flushing of wild mammals to guns.

No dogs can chase or kill a wild mammal.

Reasonable steps must be taken to ensure that the animal is shot dead by a competent person, and reasonable steps taken to ensure that the dog doing the stalking/flushing is kept under close control to allow the animal to be shot.

Dogs must not be used below ground for flushing out, unless

A - this is done to prevent or reduced serious damage to game birds

B - the person doing the flushing has on him written evidence that the land belongs to him or that he has been given permission to use the land for that purpose by the occupier of the land.

In the case of flushing below ground for this purpose only one dog may be used and reasonable steps must be taken to ensure that the animal is flushed out as soon as it is found, and shot by a competent person as soon as it is flushed out. Reasonable steps must be taken to keep the dog under control to ensure that the animal is shot.

A Drag or trail hunt that isn’t

A trail or a drag being put though crop, woodland, near roads, peoples houses or near railway lines.

Blocked earths or badger setts. It is actually illegal to interfere with a badger sett under the Protection of badger’s act 1992. Hunters will often block fox earths so foxes cannot escape from hounds, this should be filmed and reported to us.

Hounds going off the trail or drag and not being immediately put back on track either by the horn, whip, or voice calls.

It is still legal to hunt rats and rabbits with dogs. Mink hunts have stated they are to hunt rabbits and rats instead of mink in the summer and some harrier packs have said they are to hunt rabbits. The hunter must still have permission from the occupier; if the land is not occupied then they need it from the landowner.

Another important point is that Hunts can be prosecuted under the Protection of Animals Act 1911 and the Wild Mammals Act 1996. So for example if you had evidence of a live fox being torn apart by foxes a prosecution could be brought under PAA 1911 for causing unnecessary cruelty.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:42:25

i hope i become wildlife officer. i really do. smile

RowanTheRedNosedMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 20-Dec-12 22:43:19


We appreciate that feelings are running high here, but please try to attack ideas, not posters - and remember our Talk Guidelines.


tetleymel Thu 20-Dec-12 22:43:51


LRDtheFeministDude Thu 20-Dec-12 22:45:05

Thanks rowan.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Thu 20-Dec-12 22:48:08

my shoulders are fairly broad....ive heard worse levelled at me in town on a saturday

Loshad Thu 20-Dec-12 23:36:22

Hunts need to wake up to reality. Lie has changed. In my youth i spent every saturday, and as many wednesdays as i could skive off school hunting.
I see the local hunt and i cringe these days. They are arrogant beyond belief and appear to be unaware of the changes in society.
I cannot emphasise my hunting connections enough, my uncle was field master, another aunt was secretary for more then 20 years.
The local hunt come charging around the area as if they own it, they are rude, arrogant and unpleasant.Recently i was out hacking, no indication from the local hunt that they were in the area. A hunted (illegally) fox ran right past me, followed by the hounds and hunt staff, bellowing at me to get out of the way. I was on on a young TB event horse on a public bridleway shock
If the local hunt are alienting folk like me then they are on a hiding to nothing, life has has changed, hunts need to adapt and rude comments like they don't have time to notify small landowners stick in ones craw. They managed to upset at least 4 groups of horsey folk that saturday, including the loasl feed merchants who threatened to withdraw their trade discount! shock

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Fri 21-Dec-12 00:40:20

The trouble with the "Countryside Alliance" and their little chums us that they think everyone in the "countryside" is like them and is therefore pro hunting. And whenevidence is presented to them which shows they're wrong, they just discount the evidence.

What do they think of whaling? (also illegal) Because the Japanese offer strangely similar arguments to the ones you are using.

Zwitterion Fri 21-Dec-12 05:36:36

I live in the country. I don't have a problem with killing animals per se.

I do have a massive problem though with arrogant, rude, entitled hunters and followers who put themselves before others, clearly get off on the thrill of the kill, disguise their bloodlust as pest control and believe they are above the law.

The RSPCA did the right thing. Hopefully this will send a clear message about what is and isn't acceptable. I respect the RSPCA more as a result. They have demonstrated real clout.

Electricblanket Fri 21-Dec-12 09:59:04

Some of you live in totally vile communities. Our area is by far from perfect, the only animosity I have ever experience towards hunting is when some anti's were mini bused in from anther area to kick off at the boxing day meet the christmas that hunting laws were amended.

The cap certainly fit the psychopaths that day, they were back on their fun bus and heading home within minutes.

lidlqueen Fri 21-Dec-12 10:05:57

oh yeh they do that. the uni sabs here (west wales) used to bus down to the Vale of Aylesbury (near London, lots of 'weekend hunters' - because, actually, if they had met a bunch of Welsh farmers on horseback, they would have shit themselves.

lidlqueen Fri 21-Dec-12 10:07:23

and the funniest thing of all is that when they graduated, typically, they ended up working for ICI and the like. aww they cared so much for the little furry animals....

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Fri 21-Dec-12 11:03:44

Your last post is stupid.

lidlqueen Fri 21-Dec-12 11:06:44

no it is not, think about it.

lidlqueen Fri 21-Dec-12 11:09:22

this is the kind of thing that goes on at ICI.

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Fri 21-Dec-12 12:31:54

I'm not saying that ICI are paragons of virtue. Of course not. However, if you are starting arguments such as "You're not a vegetarian: how can you be against fox hunting?", then an equally valid one could be "You use crude oil don't you? How can you be against ICI?" iyswim.

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Fri 21-Dec-12 12:32:38

Or "you benefit from chemicals, don't you? how can you be against ICI?"

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 21-Dec-12 13:23:36

I understand lidls ici point perfectly.

As I have made very obvious on this thread I am dead against hunting.

But I think a lot (most?) hunt saboteurs are in it for the wrong reasons too. My uninformed impression is that most do it for the kicks and/or some misinformed view that they are not anarchists striking out against the Upper classes. I'm not convinced that they are that fussed about animal welfare.

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Fri 21-Dec-12 13:36:04

Yes many actual hunt sabateurs are troublemaking wankers. But to class everyone who's against hunting as a sab, just as classing everyone who rides with the hounds as a chinless, braying overbred toff, is deliberately miunderstanding the situation.

picketywick Fri 21-Dec-12 13:36:27

they do it because the police are not interested in enforcing the law

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Fri 21-Dec-12 13:45:06

But they have done it for many years, even when hunting was legal.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Fri 21-Dec-12 13:59:11

Pickety not strictly true but no one has ever reported hunting to me. The group that follows ours have a dedicated wildlife officer.

that and we are so bloody stretched now - my shift used to be 20 strong, now is down to 6 on a good day - if anyone is off, on hol, sick, or maternity leave we are basically buggered. It often means the control room prioritise stuff before it even gets to a police officer. Given the choice between going to reports of illegal hunting and, say, a burglary in progress guess which wins our time....sign of the times.

Backinthebox Fri 21-Dec-12 19:12:50

Vicarinatutu, I do hope that as a police officer you follow the law rather than allow your own feelings to colour certain situations!

On both sides of the fence there are many law-abiding citizens legally going about their everyday lives, whether that be hunting or observing hunts. On both sides of the fence there are trouble causers who are happy to break the law in pursuit of their beliefs. There are people who are pro- and anti-hunting who feel very strongly about it, and both sides believe the other side to be unreasonable. The most extreme examples of abhorrent behaviour (there have been references to both saboteurs and hunt supporters being killed by the other side here, and in all cases no conviction was made) are the examples usually bandied about and do neither the hunters or animal rights folk any good.

Without declaring an interest either way, I would like to think that if you came across a case of aggravated trespass, civil disobedience or actual bodily harm (all of which have been committed by AND against hunt followers AND hunt monitors in recent years) you would do the right thing.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Fri 21-Dec-12 20:16:08

i cant not do the right thing- but as a police officer the only role one has is to gather evidence and then present it to either a court of law or the CPS for a decision on whether it gets as far as a court of law.

i took an oath that i will uphold the law. I would do that in any circumstances. My own personal feelings rarely come into anything i do, discretion is increasingly becoming impossible to show as more and more policy and procedure is written into what we do.

Pantomimedam Fri 21-Dec-12 21:54:27

Civil disobedience is a good thing and not to be bracketed with actual bodily harm, ffs. How do you think you got the vote? By asking nicely? Fat chance!

lidlqueen Sat 22-Dec-12 10:59:53

Given the choice between going to reports of illegal hunting and, say, a burglary in progress guess which wins our time
well i should flipping hope so!!
also, foxes, as vermin, do need to be controlled; other ways are with poison or by shooting - both of these methods could cause the fox to suffer far more than a quick death with hounds - for example ingesting a dose of poison that doesn't do the job quickly, or a bullet that wounds but does not kill.

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Sat 22-Dec-12 11:08:00

Who classes what as vermin? Bit subjective isn't it? Lots of people see herring gulls as vermin, yet they are a declining and protected species. How is the fox classed under the 1981 Wildlife and Countryside Act? (genuine question) Because I thought that all wildlife was protected under that, unless specifically stated e.g. magpies, rabbits. There are moves to specify cormorants as non protected as well, meaning that anyone with a rifle can have a pop at them.

lidlqueen Sat 22-Dec-12 11:14:34

good question ariel - and conflicting info on that too....

sashh Tue 25-Dec-12 07:50:45

Battery farming chickens is vile so why do it... but it's legal.

I thought it wasn't anymore?

Pixel Tue 25-Dec-12 23:52:15

No I thought our poultry farmers nearly bankrupted themselves changing over to larger cages (£400 million spent) while the rest of europe has decided not to bother here. So if you are bothered then make sure your eggs are british. I haven't bought supermarket eggs for many years, all mine came from the local farm shop and now I have my own hens who I know are spoiled rotten!

Electricblanket Wed 26-Dec-12 11:30:17

I toured a few working American farms on my gap year and sobbed at their methods. I tried being vegetarian afterwards, but decided to just not eat meat whilst out of UK.

Of the people I know who don't agree with hunting, none of them can bothered to get up on a wet, cold, dark, morning to follow ther local hunt, they would rather stay in bed and just sign some sort of petition and infact many of them havnt even bothered to sign anything. Those that make the effort I agree, are normally in it for the wrong reasons and create more damage then good. Our local police only pay any interest to keep those types away.

Writehand Thu 03-Jan-13 18:38:36

I'm with PonyofDoom. I only hunted a couple of times in my teens, and now I can't ride at all, according to my back surgeon, but I can still remember it was one of the most exciting things I ever did. My pony did things he could never have done on an ordinary hack: he got soooo excited and he was up for anything. He jumped brush, even a gate. We had an amazing time. It's not the kill, it's the chase. During one, I saw the fox on a wall, grooming himself.

I'm sorry, but hunting is a human instinct. If you've ever tried to catch eels, crabs or fish, even prawns, you'll know that there's a kick when you catch whatever you're after. If you've hunted anything you'll know that feeling. Hunting is something that goes back to our dawn, and enjoying it is a very human thing.

And I'm not convinced by the cruelty thing. Hallal killing by throat slitting is far worse, and I know I would far rather be a wild fox than a captive chicken.

Loads of people have commented that "they don't do this elsewhere in Europe" when actually they do. See this link The French love hunting with dogs, as do a lot of other nations. The Americans, of course, hunt big time, and acknowledge this "thrill of the chase" thing.

The hunting laws were brought in to placate urban dwellers with no investment in the countryside or its ways. There are far more city types than farmers now. And half the idiots who oppose hunting seem to think that if they aren't hunted the dear lickle foxes will die in patchwork quilt-covered beds surrounded by their grieving family. They think it's all like Wind in the Willows.

But nature is not pretty. And farmers have to do some ugly things - regardless of the hunt. Rural life is not sanitised, but too many people who only see it as "pretty" don't appreciate how tough it can be, or realise how important the hunt can be to a community.

picketywick Fri 04-Jan-13 12:51:21

I suppose a Squire posse of Masters of Foxhounds still runs parts of the countryside and they do as they like....Money talks. Does not always use nice language

Absoluteeightiesgirl Fri 04-Jan-13 12:56:13

And half the idiots who oppose hunting seem to think that if they aren't hunted the dear lickle foxes will die in patchwork quilt-covered beds surrounded by their grieving family. They think it's all like Wind in the Willows

Not patronising at all hmm
I oppose hunting. I was brought up in the country. I used to go hunting. I am not an idiot.
Your attitude towards those who oppose blood sports stinks.

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