Hamas and Israel on the brink of war

(104 Posts)
AnyaKnowIt Wed 14-Nov-12 21:39:31
noddyholder Wed 14-Nov-12 23:31:10

This has lit the touch paper for something very scary.

lisalisa Wed 14-Nov-12 23:32:42

A bomb fell just behind our house in southern Israel

noddyholder Thu 15-Nov-12 07:26:52

So sorry Lisa you must be so scared

Morloth Thu 15-Nov-12 08:47:39

Hamas and Israel are always on the brink of war.

What is that saying? It won't end until they love their children more than they hate each other.

It is bloody stupid.

AnyaKnowIt Thu 15-Nov-12 11:40:53

bloody hell lisa, hope you are ok sad

Extrospektiv Thu 15-Nov-12 12:21:40

As I am pro-life, yes pro-all life, not just foetuses, I extend my sympathy and prayers smile

LarkinSky Thu 15-Nov-12 13:17:46

This is Israel sticking two fingers up to the new Obama administration. Gaze now, Iran in the Spring. LTurkey may be pushed into Syria shortly.

(Cameron holding emergency meeting on that today). Obama's gov has very little influence on Israel's actions now, but must have known this was coming. Bigger fish to fry at home negotiating the fiscal cliff anyway. Israel timed it well.
Middle East outlook for next few months is very bleak.

LarkinSky Thu 15-Nov-12 13:20:06

Sorry for phone typos. It's all very worrying and moreso when no world power or body can intervene.

AnyaKnowIt Thu 15-Nov-12 19:14:08

Israel are moving troops towards the boarder

LarkinSky Why would Obama have influence? I don't know much of the history but am off to google.

donnie Thu 15-Nov-12 20:41:03

Well Israel has elections approaching so a renewed attack on the Palestinians will generate a nice little surge of support for Likud.

donnie Thu 15-Nov-12 20:45:07

Oh yes we all look forward to Bibi's invasion of Iran. Yes that will be a real step forward.

CoteDAzur Thu 15-Nov-12 20:50:27

"Why would Obama have influence?"

She might be referring to the enormous financial and political support US gives Israel, without which Israel wouldn't survive for very long (and most definitely wouldn't be sticking two fingers at the international community and keep expanding settlements into Palestinian territory).

That probably gives the US some influence over Israel.

PoppyAmex Thu 15-Nov-12 20:58:22

"keep expanding settlements into Palestinian territory"

Of course Hamas bear absolutely no responsibility in the current events.

Lisa thinking of you - hope you're ok.

Sunnywithachanceofshowers Thu 15-Nov-12 20:59:59

This is terrible for everyone.

I hope you're okay Lisa.

CoteDAzur Thu 15-Nov-12 21:06:39

Of course neither side is lily-white but what I have said is fact - US should have some leverage with Israel because without its political & military support (worth $ 3bn per year), Israel wouldn't last long nor would it also be able to give the proverbial finger to the international community re steadily increasing settlements into Palestinian territory.

Do you have a problem with any of the above?

donnie Thu 15-Nov-12 21:16:31

Poppy: Hamas DO have a case to answer re : launching rockets.
Hamas DOES NOT have a case to answet re: sustained and continuous theft of Palestinian land / farms/businesses by Israelis.
If anyone would like to clearly illustrate just how Hamas has forced Israel to steal Palestinian land since 1967 that would prove most illuminating.

AnyaKnowIt Thu 15-Nov-12 21:33:19

There are more reports of explosions sad

tiggersreturn Thu 15-Nov-12 21:34:54

And the EU should have a say in what Hamas do given their contribution to the Palestinian Authority of €500million last year alone of actual cash. During a supposed economic crisis when the euro is going under....


That's our taxes...

difficultpickle Thu 15-Nov-12 21:37:53

BBC said 15 Palestinians dead and 3 Israelis.

It is a shame that Tony Blair is a middle east envoy and does nothing and it is a shame that Obama has not followed up his first election visit with doing anything substantial re peace negotiations. Unfortunately I agree with others who think that Israel has launched attacks for political/election gains.

PoppyAmex Thu 15-Nov-12 21:50:18

"What I've said is fact..."
"Israel wouldn't last long...."
"Do you have a problem with any if the above"?

Actually I do - it's a lazy, reductive statement and it's not a "fact", it's your (misinformed) opinion.

I promised myself not to discuss this subject in forums so i will apologise for bring passive aggressive and leaving it at this. My fault entirely for posting on this thread to begin with.

openerofjars Thu 15-Nov-12 21:51:27

Extrospektiv, irrelevant. Nobody cares what you think. It's like joining this discussion and saying "My thoughts go out to members of all brass bands caught up in this horrible conflict, because I play the tuba". Using any topic to promote your pro-life views is bad form.

Iteotwawki Thu 15-Nov-12 21:55:10

This is the first move in US/Israel vs Syria/Iran.

Not a great time for the world as a whole in the next few months/years.

difficultpickle Thu 15-Nov-12 21:56:53

Iteotwawki I hope you are wrong but I fear with Obama's view on foreign policy you may be right sad

MrsGrieves Thu 15-Nov-12 22:04:53

I can't see that peace negotiations are really going to help in this situation tbh, although hope to be wrong. From what I have read and understand it's kind of an intractable problem, neither side is going to suddenly concede land/defeat, both believe they are 100% right.

I do hope that it doesn't escalate further tbh, ever since watching Threads I'm shit scared of any wars/proxy wars in Iran blush.

CoteDAzur Thu 15-Nov-12 22:05:19

tiggers - Thanks for that interesting breakdown of EU aid.

CoteDAzur Thu 15-Nov-12 22:06:36

Poppy - If you think I am misinformed, feel free to inform me.

I would be interested to hear your "information".

nameswinger1 Thu 15-Nov-12 22:17:15

They say your face morphs into the person you are as you get older and the Middle East envoy Tony Blair looks positively scary and evil on ITN news this evening.

Fingers cross this doesn't escalate - it really is a nightmare with no end insight.

tiggersreturn Fri 16-Nov-12 07:53:21

Cote d'azur you have said

"US should have some leverage with Israel because without its political & military support (worth $ 3bn per year), Israel wouldn't last long nor would it also be able to give the proverbial finger to the international community re steadily increasing settlements into Palestinian territory. "

While it is true that Israel does receive that amount in military support, they have not received any economic support from the US since 2007. So if they can survive economically are you suggesting that it would be better they are wiped off the map by all Arab nations with their weapons as they have attempted to do in 1948, 1967, 1973, 1991 and so on? Or does "Israel wouldn't last long" have some other meaning?

In terms of steadlily increasing settlements into Palestinian territory, there have been settlement freezes and unfreezes over recent years but don't forget that in 2005 Israel uprooted entire communities of very hardline settlers in Gaza and removed them, handing back control of the entire area to the Palestinians. As a result of which the Palestinians started raining rockets on Southern Israel.

Not exactly a great response?

CoteDAzur Fri 16-Nov-12 08:24:38

You are answering stuff I haven't said - it is a logical fallacy called Straw Man.

"they have not received any economic support from the US since 2007. So if they can survive economically"

I never said Israel doesn't have a sustainable economy.

I said Israel gets $ 3 billion military aid from the US per year (which you agree is true) without which it wouldn't be able to keep up its current policies and survive.

"are you suggesting that it would be better they are wiped off the map"

Never said that, either.

What I have said was very clear. And it is fact. I'm not sure why you are trying to dispute it. I

EdithWeston Fri 16-Nov-12 08:36:26

I think what makes this particularly worrying is that the role Egypt will play is currently unknown. Mubarak was always able to stifle the popular pro-Palestinian sentiment in Egypt. The new president is unknown on both his inclination and ability to do this. And as he is of a Muslim Brotherhood background (similar roots to Hamas), then non-intervention cannot continue to be securely relied upon.

MrsjREwing Fri 16-Nov-12 08:42:45

Very worrying times, this is not good at all.

CoteDAzur Fri 16-Nov-12 08:42:46

The region is becoming more and more favourable to fundamentalists. "Arab spring" was all well and good, and we all cheered it because of course people should run their own countries, but the price of democracy is that we no longer have friendly dictators to steer their countries' policies away from fundamentalist religious thinking.

LightHousekeeping Fri 16-Nov-12 08:45:07

It's too scary to contemplate how this could end.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 16-Nov-12 21:56:28

Israel have doubled troops to 75,000

Sunnywithachanceofshowers Fri 16-Nov-12 22:17:28


donnie Sat 17-Nov-12 09:18:58

tigger - what is a 'settlement freeze/unfreeze'? is it a euphemism? is an 'unfreeze' a different word for expansionism? or colonialism? or maybe just plain old land-grab? and those pockets of hardliners who were uprooted and moved - why were they there in the first place? oh yes, 'natural expansion' - that's what Bibi calls it isn't it? the assumed right of Israel to take whatever land they want from Arabs. What this points to is an entrenched and fundamental racism which lies at the heart of the Israeli land policy. I defy anyone here to contradict this with proof.

Also your link regarding aid to the Palestinians: do you think the same measures would be in place if it were not for the Israeli blockade of Gaza which has been in place for a number of years? starving and depriving them relentlessly?

And finally your comment that the Palestinians have 'control of the entire area' - this is rubbish; Israel has always maintained complete control of Gazan borders and ALL its land space.

Just waiting now for the apologists to come on and tell us that 'Israel is a lamb surrounded by wolves'..... and how generous and kind they are for dropping leaflets a few seconds informing them that they intend bomb them to hell

Did anyone hear Jonathan Sachs yesterday on R4! now that really was telling....

donnie Sat 17-Nov-12 10:19:25

'air space' - not land space.

MrsjREwing Sat 17-Nov-12 10:22:35

Getting worse, not good.

littleducks Sat 17-Nov-12 10:28:28

Neither side is blameless and it's gone to far to try and go back to the roots sadly.

However Israel broke the ceasefire, they made a conscious choice to assassinate someone as it was in there best interest over keeping the ceasefire. How and why they aren't more widely condemned for that shocks me.

noddyholder Sat 17-Nov-12 10:30:42

Yes I think Israel breaking the ceasefire was unforgiveable.

ScorpionQueen Sat 17-Nov-12 10:55:50

It's just awful. You'd think Israel would be above genocide considering their history but obviously not. Seeing pictures of the wounded and terrified makes me so sad and angry. Why are we not openly condeming this? Why is the media so hesitant to report on the atrocities? Yes again, the world just sits back and lets it happen. When will the human race ever learn from past mistakes?

I know it is not one-sided, but too many people are going to die and it is not right.

MrsjREwing Sat 17-Nov-12 11:19:06

Too many innocents on both sides suffering. Who is the lunatic who started this? I can see this spreading to many countries.

donnie Sat 17-Nov-12 11:25:08

Blair refused to condemn the breaking of the ceasefire on R4 the other day. Just kept rabbiting on about 'de-escalation'. Not entirely sure how that is to be achieved , given that there will be no condemnation of the breaking of the (fragile) ceasefire.

Why is nobody addressing the expansion of the landtheft settlements? It is so obvious that this is a major, driving force behind hostilities. Yet nobody openly condemns it. Absolutely unbelievable. You can carry on building on stolen land and expanding into other people's territory, even in direct contravention of international law and still believe you have the moral high ground. I can barely believe the words as I type them.

CoteDAzur Sat 17-Nov-12 19:38:30

"Why are we not openly condeming this?"

UN tried to condemn Israel re its treatment of Palestinians but these motions were blocked by the US every single time.

CoteDAzur Sat 17-Nov-12 19:45:58

"Who is the lunatic who started this?"

Imho, that would be the British rulers of Palestine who thought it would be a good idea to gave this already populated area as a gift to Jews of the world.

MrsjREwing Sat 17-Nov-12 20:05:39

You see this goes back to Hitler and people wanting to make up for it, terrible, terrible things happened that never should have. Thing is they were not given Wales, The South West of England or Northern Ireland, land the UK owned, they gave away someone else's land.

I understand that land was not enough and more, more, more is being grabbed, what is the thinking? Leave well alone, be gratefull for the freeland and live in peace, stop being greedy and causing trouble for so many others in Israel, Gaza and all over the world. I bet Hague will join US and Israel and some poor bastards in London will be bombed, ffs.

lisalisa Sat 17-Nov-12 21:25:18

Yes thank you all thankfully ok - should have said that we are in UK at the moment not in Ashdod. But dh's family in Ashdod not so great - schools closed and sirens going constantly.
Dh's neice just gave birth 2 weeks ago and running to shelter little newborn got covered in shrapnel. sad

lisalisa Sat 17-Nov-12 21:29:27

"However Israel broke the ceasefire, they made a conscious choice to assassinate someone as it was in there best interest over keeping the ceasefire. How and why they aren't more widely condemned for that shocks me. "

Surely this was a joke? Israel broke the ceasefire? What ceasefire? There hasn't been a ceasefire ! Does this poster know that Sderot , Ashkelon and Ashdod have been under fire for many many months? Mainly Sderot where rockets have been falling every day - yes - every day - day in day out - for months. Hamas have been warned to stop and told that Israel will take action.

Schools in Sderot are pepperred wtih rocket holes and many kids are pyschologically traumatised. Shops have set opening times ( when rockets traditionally have not falled) , builders and tradesmen set up who specialise in repairing rocket damage and parks and open spaces deserted. A City under siege.

MrsjREwing Sat 17-Nov-12 21:33:35

Lisalisa, that is no way to live, so sad, I am not looking forward to living in terror like that again once the UK wades in.

ThePathanKhansWitch Sat 17-Nov-12 21:38:03

Sending thoughts of peace to ALL women and children who are scared and in danger tonight.

Spoke to someone earlier whose dp works at UN, said we may look back on these days as the start of WW3, hope that's just hyperbole.

The landscape in the M.E has changed so much, still in flux. Lets hope a ceasefire can be reached and maitained.

ThePathanKhansWitch Sat 17-Nov-12 21:39:56


difficultpickle Sat 17-Nov-12 21:46:00

There was supposed to be a ceasefire when the Egyptian PM visited Gaza but Israel broke it. Lisalisa I'm surprised if you are in the UK that you didn't hear that as it was widely reported on the radio/tv and print media.

What about daily attacks from Israel to Gaza? The timing of Israel's latest campaign is interesting coming as it does a week after the US elections.

The UK won't get involved. It didn't get involved in 1947 and that is part of the reason why that region is in such a mess.

MrsjREwing Sat 17-Nov-12 21:48:08

I thought that too, those Mayan's may have noted a significant date there. Russia, Iran I think is giving aid, Egypt, Jordan to name a few will fight against Israel, US will back them as will we. Iceland is looking an attractive place right now, they took no shit when their government tried to bail out their banks, they wouldn't get involved in this.

ThePathanKhansWitch Sat 17-Nov-12 22:07:17

If it turns out to be war with Iran by proxy, and if Iran do have the bomb. What for the world then?
I agree with all posters, this is a terrifying tume.

SickOnMyShoulder Sun 18-Nov-12 06:54:18

I don't normally get involved in politics but my best friend from school lives in tel aviv. Hamas sent over 100 rockets over Israel last week, which wasn't mentioned in our news at all until Israel retaliated and killed Hamas leader. Also, you say they should leave settlements- but rocket attacks started when they left gaza. Israel isn't involved in gaza at all- it is jew free, but Israel still provides it with free electricity, water, etc. if even one rocket fell on the uk, let along 100 from a territory we'd given up I'd expect our army to go in and sort it out!

MrsjREwing Sun 18-Nov-12 10:09:32

I am watching BBC cover this now. The Israel guy sounds like a nasty psycho twisting events, all he is doing is making me sympathise with the people from Gaza.

‎"we must finish them off, so we can sit with moderates and talk peace"

no lessons learned and new realities ignored. God save us from our folly

MrsjREwing Sun 18-Nov-12 13:57:43

All those Israel supporters earlier today appeared to me as a bunch of raving psychopaths, who wind up people on both sides, have innocents on both sides killed and traumatised. Those Isreal army young lads will die and kill, their families will pay the price when those who don't get their hands dirty use those deaths to whip up more unrest.

Some other raving lunatic will emerge within Hamas to replace the guy killed who will whip up support for those innocent children killed by Israel.

I don't think this will end and I am fed up of wasting lives and money over here in terrorisim due to Hague and Cameron backing this.

donnie Sun 18-Nov-12 15:05:14

It was a calculated act of provocation; Israel wants Hamas to start firing rockets because then they are vindicated in pulverising Gaza. Then they state that 'Hamas is armed by Iran'. This in turn justifies military strikes against Iran. Which is basically what they want.

This is why they assassinated the Hamas leader.

MrsjREwing Sun 18-Nov-12 15:25:49

Dinnie, I thought there was a bigger agenda. So Israel and Iran go to war, and other countries bundle in.

noddyholder Sun 18-Nov-12 15:32:07

I think I am more scared about this than any of my friends. I think the killing the leader was key to enabling them to involve Iran.I was surprised that it wan't frnt page in all papers today

ScorpionQueen Sun 18-Nov-12 16:03:21

Me too, Noddy, everyone seems oblivious to what is going on while I have been lying awake at night worrying about it all. What can we do?

MrsjREwing Sun 18-Nov-12 16:11:53

Blair look no notice of the anti war marches last time and took us into an illegal war, all those wonded and dead service men and women frim our forces and their families pay the price when Blair is doing very well for himself.

noddyholder Sun 18-Nov-12 16:12:15

We can't do anything sad.

ScorpionQueen Sun 18-Nov-12 16:13:04


Sunnywithachanceofshowers Sun 18-Nov-12 16:59:17


ommmward Sun 18-Nov-12 17:08:30

So, is the timeline

... nastiness on both sides for years and years... then...

1. Hamas rocket strikes all summer, now with Improved Long Range
2. Israel murders the Hamas leader
3. All hell breaks loose


Or were the Hamas rocket strikes in direct response to an earlier Israeli action?

What I mean is, can the starting point of this round of fighting be easily identified?

Where is Mo Mowlam when you need her? Such a loss. The only hope I can imagine is some motherly, feisty, eminently reasonable woman to shame the aggressive men into talking, have enough of a blind eye to keep discussion moving, and actually do a Good Friday equivalent (and of course it'd be a fudge, but it'd be something)

JakeBullet Sun 18-Nov-12 17:31:15

I have never felt so upset or helpless about something as I do over this. The links to the photos were horrific..not the lack of a disclaimer but the photos themselves. Seeing mothers carrying their severely injured babies and children, many missing limbs has really affected me today. And I want to do something but I don't know what to do, I feel so helpless.

NOTHING justifies the killing and maiming of innocent civilians..NOTHING, I don't care how bad Israel has been or Hamas, I care abut innocent me , women and children being slaughtered to write wrongs , perceived or otherwise. sadsadsadsadsad

JakeBullet Sun 18-Nov-12 17:32:08

I meant "right" and not "write" of course.

Sunnywithachanceofshowers Sun 18-Nov-12 17:50:29

I know what you mean Jake. Whatever the rights and wrongs, it's so awful that people are suffering.

ZZZenAgain Sun 18-Nov-12 18:04:29

Is Iran ready for war? I don't think so. I have heard the saber rattling and we know about the bomb situation but whether the population of Iran is prepared to go to war, I am not so sure.

difficultpickle Sun 18-Nov-12 18:04:57

Can someone explain to me why the two Israel spokesmen - Mark something and Paul something both have South African accents?

ZZZenAgain Sun 18-Nov-12 18:04:57

sabre obviously

tiggersreturn Sun 18-Nov-12 18:54:41

I had a really long detailed reply but it got lost so here goes.


The word is used in Hebrew describes every place built by Jews for zionistic purposes so Petach Tikva Rishon l'zion (towns) as well as more recent ones.

To understand the history of "settlements" and the "West Bank" you have to go back to at least 1947.

In 1947 the UN passed a vote drawing up boundaries for a Jewish and Arab ie Palestinian state. They did this as a result of about 100 years of Zionism including developing and buying land in what is now Israel, the current political views on nationalism (the Palestinians came in rather late in the game on this but turning what had previously been large areas with disparate groups into individual nations was a thing which had been going on since late 19th century and very much so after 1918 and 1945) and in part because of the inaction and in some cases deliberate ignoring of nearly every Western state of the plight of Jews during the holocaust. By way of note the Mufti of Jerusalem, the quasi leader of the Palestinians during WW2 had tried to invite Hitler to Jerusalem so he could deal with the Jews there and Iraq and parts of North Africa were also involved in the Holocaust and general pogroms.

Although the state of Israel was not declared until May 1948 from the UN vote until that date the local Arabs ie the Palestinians proceeded to attack all Jewish settlements throughout the then Palestine as they obviously weren't pleased with the decision. This was because the decision they wanted was for an entirely Arab state.

On the day Israel declared independence 5 Arab armies attacked it - Syria, Transjordan, Iraq, Egypt and Lebanon. By a miracle it survived but ended up with very different borders from the ones the UN had marked. Some parts which should have been in were out and some which should have been out were in. In addition, many Jews had been killed as a result.

The Arabs had fled their homes at the start of the war, some because they were conquered by the new Israeli army others because they believed the Arabs would win but didn't want to sit around in a war zone and thought they'd go back after it was over.

At this point in 1948 these Arabs could have taken over their new areas and started building a country. Or they could have been absorbed into the neighbouring countries bearing in mind that borders in the middle east had been pretty fluid since 1917. Instead the Jordanian and Egyptian and Lebanese governments kept these people in refugee camps for reasons of their own not least that when you are not quite democratic governments having a convenient scapegoat to centre popular hatred away from yourself is a useful thing to have. If you want an example of a government who dealt rather differently with a similar event look at the Finnish government response to the USSR annexing 10% of their land in 1945 on incredibly unfair grounds.

In 1967 on the belief that they were about to be attacked Israel pre-emptively attacked Egypt and then the war esclated with entry of Syria and Jordan. As a result of this war known as the 6 days war for its length all the "occupied territorities" were conquered. At the time it was believed that most would be given back in return for peace.

In 1973 Egypt and Syria attacked Israel on Yom Kipur the holiest of all days in order to regain their territory. They failed but in 1982 following a peace treaty with Egypt Israel handed back most of the Sinai peninsula including evacuating a settlement made since 1967 called Yamit.

Since 1967 one of the right wing positions has involved building up the territories captured then. For some this is on the basis of security whereas for others it is a religious ideology which will lead to the coming of the messiah. The latter particularly the extreme end are in my view mad.

Attempts have been made by various governments to try and withdraw from the territories in return for peace. The most recent attempt was Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza and some of the West Bank in 2005. 25 settlements were destroyed, 9000 settlers relocated and rockets started raining down from Southern Israel shortly after as previously these settlements had acted as a buffer zone for the rest of Israel. So hardly a great example of giving land gets you peace.

So why were the settlements there in the first place? Because the Arabs wanted to drive the Jews in the sea (that is a direct translation of the rhetoric used in 1948 and continued to be used today by Hamas in Arabic), they failed and Israel continues to try and stop them.

Personally I believe the only way to peace is to put the Palestinians in a position where they are economically stable and the desire for capitalism and maintaining the status quo overrides the desire to follow lunatics. Given the appeal of said lunatics worldwide nowadays I'm not sure that would give total peace.

There is no "entrenched and fundamental racism in Israeli land policy". Quite simply Israel believes the country is their biblically and historically but most governments are prepared to barter with what they have for peace. They will also co-exist providing the Palestinians want to co-exist. There are various Arab groups living in Israel including the Druze who serve in the IDF. There are also schools where Jews and Arabs learn together. Yes they are in a minority and no Israel isn't wonderful in everyway but at the end of the day it does try to deal with considerably more difficult issues than most Western countries face in a democratic manner which is more than can be said of the rest of the region. The Palestinians believe the whole land is theirs historically and their rhetoric is it will only return when there are no Jews left or on the moderate view treated as second class citizens in the way the few Jews left in Muslim countries are. And of course this only applies to any Jews who could prove they were there in 1914 not to any Holocaust survivor or approximately 1 million Jews expelled or forced out of Arab lands where they had lived in some cases for over 1000 years as a result of hostility to Israel. Which policy is racist?

MrsJREWING - regarding your claims of psychopaths what do you think of this news clip in which Hamas openly admit to placing their own women and children in positions where they will get killed in order to further their aims

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwtRd3ZCNBs IMO that is truly psychopathic

MrsjREwing Sun 18-Nov-12 19:05:24

Most leaders are psychopaths.

littleducks Sun 18-Nov-12 20:35:42

I think tiggersreturn post proves the 'history is written by the winners' pont

OhBuggerandArse Sun 18-Nov-12 20:42:18

There are children dying and in pain tonight; the hospitals are desperately in need of supplies. Please make a donation if you can.


difficultpickle Sun 18-Nov-12 21:00:51

Donated. Thanks for the link.

bobthebuddha Sun 18-Nov-12 22:32:57

littleducks, if you think either side in this are 'winners' you're not someone who has to live with the day-to-day reality. There are no winners.

donnie Sun 18-Nov-12 22:37:48

oh dear Tigger you are having trouble with a few basic facts aren't you - the 'Arabs fleeing their homes at the start of the war' - did the Irgun massacre of Deir Yassin just not happen then? and what about the Irgun bombings of hotels and other places - including the King David Hotel - did these just not happen either?

Your justification for the 'settlements' -your word, definitely not mine - seems to be that is says something in the Bible so it must be true. If , as you say, Israel believes that Palestinian land ' is their biblically and historically' then you have just proved my earlier point that there is fundamental racism entrenched in their land policy.

Let us not call them 'settlements' because that conceals the truth that they are stolen from other families. Stolen by radicals who believe - and are encouraged by the Israeli govt to believe - that they have a right by virtue of their birth and nationality to take the land from others. Netanyahu described it to Hillary Clinton as 'natural expansion'.

Anyway we have been here before, many times.

squoosh Mon 19-Nov-12 02:08:01

Bad, bad PR day for Israel.

If Israel proceeds with a ground invasion we can only hope that international opinion turns fully against them.

JakeBullet Mon 19-Nov-12 08:02:13

The IsraelI land is a biblical thing, only difference now is that the Israelis are no longer an oppressed people, they are now the oppressors.

JakeBullet Mon 19-Nov-12 08:03:26

And another shout for Islamic Relief as linked below. I made a donation last night.

littleducks Mon 19-Nov-12 12:27:02

True bob, I didn't mean either side had a moral or physical victory just that it was a very onesided view

RooneyMara Mon 19-Nov-12 12:30:17

It's all well over my head as I'm crap at understanding politics OR history.

But surely no one here is wrong or right, they're both unhappy, neither really wants to be fighting, and they need to, well, compromise a bit?

When I look at pictures of little kids on TV holding home made wooden guns, and talk to the mum at school who grew up in Palestine and cannot allow her child to play with toy weapons, it just looks like an intractable, cyclical situation where kids grow up having only ever known hostility and having an enemy to blame.

I wish we could talk some sense into these people.

tiggersreturn Mon 19-Nov-12 19:47:10

Donnie you always misread posts to make your points. Go back and you'll find a reference to conquering.

Are you offering the parts of Hebron back to the Jews who were murdered there in 1929? I don't think so. You have no solutions just accusations.

ScorpionQueen Mon 19-Nov-12 21:37:48

Someone I know on FB keeps posting pictures of dead children. I am sitting here crying and feeling so helpless. I'm too bloody overdrawn to even donate to the Islamic Relief fund. It is all just so awful. I'm such a coward I've had to unsubscribe from their feed as I can't bear to look at the images. Then I feel bad because I only have to look at them, they aren't my children, family, friends. These are real people. Children. I don't care who started it but it needs to stop.

katkouta Mon 19-Nov-12 22:55:39

Not going to get into an arguement about the situation, we'd be here forever!

Just want to advise people not to trust ANY article regarding this situation written by the BBC. They are utterly disgusting with their biased reports.

donnie Tue 20-Nov-12 12:51:09

katkouta - as a matter of interest which news sources do you recommend as accurate and unbiased?

splashymcsplash Tue 20-Nov-12 14:02:37

I agree, the BBC is incredibly biased. There are many well documented instances of them refusing to report on atrocities committed by Palestinians against Israeli civilians including women and children.

No wonder there is so much anti-Israel sentiment in the UK when reporting is so one sided.

I wonder how many people who are so quick to condemn Israel know that Hamas broke the ceasefire and has been doing so for many months.

FoxSake Tue 20-Nov-12 14:11:11

donnie I like Alex thomson for channel 4 news, his twitter feed is excellent.

Splashy why did Israel continue to blockade Gaza, preventing medical care and electricity to the people of Gaza even during the ceasefire? A genuine question. I do not support Hamas or Israel but I do believe that when you opress a people the way the Israelis opress the people of Palestine you will always breed militant groups. Israel has an agenda, they are inciting war by murdering innocent women and children.

splashymcsplash Tue 20-Nov-12 16:25:22

Foxsake because the blockade was in place to prevent missiles and other weapons which would be used on Israel from entering the country. Unfortunately there are numerous smuggling tunnels, so Israel's blockade was not very effective anyway. Just look at the numberof missiles which have been sent into Israel.

FoxSake Tue 20-Nov-12 16:54:09

Really ? Just weapons.

"According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs at various times, Israel has blocked goods including wheelchairs, dry food items, and crayons, Stationery, soccer balls, and musical instruments.International aid group Mercy Corps said it was blocked from sending 90 tons of macaroni and other foodstuffs. After international pressure, Israeli authorities said that they were giving the shipment a green light. Israel was also reported to have prevented aid groups from sending in other items, such as paper, crayons,[citation needed] tomato paste and lentils." The UN have found the blockade to me unlawful from a humanitarian point of view and yet Israel refused to end it.

Israel also forces Palestinians to carry ID cards, sounds all to familiar to me. Because of the blockades families are forced to use Gas bottles for cooking, bought on the black market, there are horrendous injuries weekly to women and children from these cannisters exploding, the victims are then prevented from travelling to specialist burns units because of the blockades, MSF who remain impartial have documented this well.

Elfontheshelfiswatchingyou Tue 20-Nov-12 20:06:30

I thought everyone knew that the blockade prevented medicine, food, vital supplies and even children's toys getting through. Reminds me of the ghettos in WW2.

splashymcsplash Tue 20-Nov-12 20:12:32

Foxsake what is the source you are quoting?

I think there is an awful lot of misinformation out there.

Humanitarian supplies are allowed in, butvia the correct routes. For political reasons, many organisations have not wished to follow these routes.

I'm going to hide this thread now. elf As someone who has family members who survived the ghettos and worse I find your comment rather disturbing.

Elfontheshelfiswatchingyou Tue 20-Nov-12 20:15:39

I find the whole thing very disturbing. I'm sorry if you are offended, but sadly circumstances are not that dissimilar.

FoxSake Tue 20-Nov-12 20:42:36

The circumstances are not disimilar at all, hide away if turning away makes you feel better, Israel are committing serious war crimes similar to that commited during ww2. The similarities are all there. If you google the UN gaza blockade or any non biased aid organisation MSF, Red Cross UNICEF they all talk about the Israelis Blockade being unlawful with the worst effected being women and children.

There are women and children trapped in a densely populated area with no shelter, no where to hide, no escape with sophisticated military raining bombs on their homes. Small babies are heaving their legs blown off being killed and being left orphans. This is not there war. Even during ww2small children were allowed to be evacuated to safe places, not in Gaza.

The genocide of a people, shame on you Israel and your supporters.

FoxSake Tue 20-Nov-12 20:52:39

repercussions of the gaza embargo by MSF

AnyaKnowIt Tue 20-Nov-12 21:10:29

No ceasefire has been agreed sad there were rumours it would be starting at 10pm UK time sad

tiggersreturn Wed 21-Nov-12 21:22:49

No a ceasefire has been agreed www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20436699 it's just that 20 rockets have been sent from Gaza to Israel (unclear if Hamas or some other rocket sending party) since then

tiggersreturn Wed 21-Nov-12 21:51:57

Remind me Foxsake where Jewish children or in fact any children in Europe were "allowed to be evacuated" to in WW2? The only children who were evacuated were English ones to the countryside in WW2 and the 2 kindertransport of just under 10,000 Jewish children from Austria and Germany before WW2. Once war broke out it stopped and children were the first to be killed.

Now look at what happens in Israel. While Gaza is "under blockade" children are not only allowed to receive treatment in Israeli hospitals which are of a higher standard but are even funded by foundations in Israel en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Israel. Furthermore since the conflict has started 124 truckloads of supplies - including medical supplies, food, and gas - were delivered from Israel to Gaza. That's while Gaza was sending 880 rockets and had killed 5 Israelis. Quite a blockade.

Before starting sending rockets to Gaza, the IDF dropped flyers in Arabic throughout Gaza broadcasting what they were going to do and telling everyone to avoid being present in the vicinity of Hamas operatives and facilities of other terrorist organisations that pose a risk to your safety. That's rather more warning than Hamas give Israeli women and children. They get a siren at any time of day or night. Israeli babies have nowhere to go other than their shelters providing they get there in time (less than 20 seconds) and don't receive a direct hit. I hear your concern for all children loudly and clearly in your post.

In addition, it is very difficult for Gazan women and children to avoid being used in this conflict because that is the exact aim of Hamas. They want to kill their own women and children to prove how awful Israel is. www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y these are the words of Hamas.

This is not genocide or even close to it. Your comments are shameful. The awful lesson that can be learnt from the Holocaust is that unless you have political and military support and independence people will happily sit by and watch you die. Look at the Armenians, the Rwandans, Sudan and more. Only the Palestinians seem to raise such levels of sympathy. How very strange.

difficultpickle Wed 21-Nov-12 21:57:16

There is definitely a blockade on Gaza. It has been there for years and is completely controlled by Israel. I can't imagine what it is like to live in Gaza but I am sure their freedom of movement is restricted in a way that the citizens of Israel can't even fathom.

Tigger you are completely incorrect in stating that only Palestinians are given sympathy. Look at the assistance given to Kosovo. If Israel did not have such a strong ally in the US then a similar level of assistance would have been given to Palestinians generations ago.

bobthebuddha Fri 23-Nov-12 14:40:49

ScorpionQueen, for what it's worth quite a few pictures people (BBC staff included) post are from the conflict in Syria, 'reassigned' to the Palestinians. At least 30,000 people have been killed in Syria in 18 months!

For some reason Syrian deaths don't seem to upset people as much. Why is this? People seem to choose their 'cause' to align with their natural political affiliations. Perhaps Syrians are not deemed to be supported by the West/the US and are therefore not, apparently, as bad as Israelis? Every child's death is equal, but you wouldn't think it from the way people go on from the comfort of their safe homes here in the West as if they were choosing which sodding football team to follow.

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