I don't know one single reason why Scotland would want to quit the UK

(366 Posts)

I'm genuinely interested in the reasons why Scotland want to break away from the UK. I'm sure there must be many good ones but I jyst can't see any atm.

ShamyFarrahCooper Wed 14-Nov-12 11:53:08

Scotland doesn't. It's a country, it doesn't have feelings wink
Being Scottish and living in Scotland I currently don't know anybody personally who wishes to be independant.

That's really interested Shamy. I genuinely thought the majority did want independence. I need to stop listening to the press I think.

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 14-Nov-12 12:03:54

I think because the general idea is the Scotland would be significantly more prosperous as an independent nation? Says Mr Salmond,the utter fuckwit.

As Shamy says,I have never met a Scottish person who actually wants it though.

except tossers like my OH's friend who insists he's Scottish but was born and raised in England. The very South of England

ShamyFarrahCooper Wed 14-Nov-12 12:06:21

If you read the DM then yes us 'free loading' scots want independence with no consequences, all paid for by England (they never include Wales).

There is a reason Salmond wants the referendum in 2014. Commonwealth Games, Bannockburn. There is a reason he wants 16-18 year olds to vote.

Not enough people want this, we have little to no information on how an independent scotland would work!

Caerlaverock Wed 14-Nov-12 12:07:19

Quite a few if us a considering it. It is not just about wealth. It is about self governance and making decisions for the good of the country if Scotland. There are different priorities up here and it would be good to have accountability with local politicians. It would be good to get rid of the chip on the shoulder and bear responsibility for our own actions. I suppose it is pointless asking that this thread not deteriorate into scots/English bashing?

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 12:09:14

Different set of values from (the majority of) the English - to me that's the biggy. They also seem to be diverging more and more.
Different education system
Different legal system
A desire not to be ruled by Westminster in ways that are at odds with what Scots want
Better if decisions about Scotland are taken by the people of Scotland

I actually don't believe that the Scottish voters should vote for independence because they think that they would be better off - I think they should vote for it if they think it is right

Some reasons why people are going to vote "Yes

Frustratedartist Wed 14-Nov-12 12:12:30

Also Scottish,living in Scotland.
I agree with the above comments, I don't know anyone who wants independence either. I think the UK should be endeavouring to work more closely together rather than separating.
I feel like the whole thing is some massive publicity stunt that I don't understand - but it's potentially a dangerous one.
I did think this link would be a series of Scotland bashing comments- it's quite funny to find the opposite

FeckOffCup Wed 14-Nov-12 12:13:06

I'm Scottish and considering voting Yes to get Scotland out from under tory rule, Salmond is preferable to Cameron and his shower IMHO, tories won't ever get a majority vote in the Scottish parliament, we only have one tory MP in the whole country. I would need to do some more research into how independence would actually work long term though so my mind isn't totally set, I'm open to debate about what would be best for the country in terms of currency, remaining part of the EU etc.

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 12:15:15

Scot living in Scotland.

I know many people who are independence supporters.

I am. It's quite scary though. It's been a pipe dream for so long and now we're face with making a huge decision it's daunting and I agree, we need more information.

Caerlaverock Wed 14-Nov-12 12:16:31

A federal Britain would be good, a group of nations with common interests working together but looking after its own population and accountable to them.

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 12:18:57

I know lots of people who are going to vote "Yes".

My dad, for one, who had been a life long Labour voter until the Iraq War, is the one who said to me "We have a different set of values". He has friends who are Tories who are also unhappy with Westminster.

He had been getting extremely uptight about the NHS reforms in England that he was reading about in the BMJ - until he reminded himself that they weren't happening in Scotland.

But there are other things, like welfare reform, that aren't devolved matters sad

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 12:21:45

The other key thing to recognise is that a vote for Independence is not a vote for Alex Salmond.

The Scots would then have the opportunity to vote for their own parties and not ones led from Westminster.

BonaDea Wed 14-Nov-12 12:22:46

A Scot, living in England. I don't know any Scots (either at home or 'down south') who agree with independence. I hate the idea.

The SNP is a disgrace and I'm ashamed they've got this far.

I haven't heard a single reasonable argument in relation to how Scotland proposes to survive economically. "Oil" is frequently touted, but is hardly a long term solution, and anyway, I don't think the rest of Britain would or should just hand over large swathes of the North Sea.

Caerlaverock Wed 14-Nov-12 12:31:50

I really don't think snp are a disgrace. They have created a feeling of optimism in Scotland despite all the doom and gloom. They don't really have an agenda apart from improving the lives of those who live in Scotland. I am not a nationalist by any means but with labour an corrupt whining mess and the Tories ashamed of their London counterparts, snp was the only option for me in the last election.

DivineInspiration Wed 14-Nov-12 12:34:02

It must be about who you know and the social circles you mix in - virtually all the Scots I know are pro-Independence.

I'm English and living in Scotland. I support Independence. This is the country I have chosen to live and work in and as a result I want what happens here to be decided by the people who live here and know the country most keenly. I believe Scotland has a right to self-governance, the right to make decisions about our country's economy and resources, and I believe that a smaller country with a government whose representatives are more in tune with a particular region's wants and needs is easier to change as the priorities change.

DivineInspiration Wed 14-Nov-12 12:36:10

Plenty of 'reasonable' (and entirely feasible) arguments about how Scotland proposes to survive economically if you look for them. The link prettybird gave above is a good place to start.

A Scottish person living in England. I dont know anyone friends/family back in Scotland who want independence either.

Scotland have lots of good things, lower prescription charges, no hospital parking fees and lots of other good things that I cant think of at the moment. They also have their own schooling system and legal system.

I havent read or heard a decent reason regarding this at all.

sleepyhead Wed 14-Nov-12 12:38:54

I'd rather pay higher taxes in exchange for better (or at least more secure) public services.

I think the UK government has permanently moved to the right, no matter the party in power, but that Scotland is more naturally Socialist by inclination and so more likely to introduce the sort of legislation that I agree with. I'll vote Yes on that basis.

Scottish Labour are a disgrace and just shout "how high?" when the UK Labour Party ask them to jump. I don't trust them to have the best interests of the Scottish people at heart. I wouldn't necessarily vote SNP after Independence - hopefully I'd have a range of political parties to choose from and could go back to being a Scottish Labour voter.

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 12:39:00

It's not a case of "handing over" - it's a case of geographical reality.

I find the "poor wee Scotland couldn't survive" comments particularly irritating - it's a bit like saying "You can't divorce me because you're not capable of surviving on your own".

Quite apart from the oil, Scotland has other resources: green energy, whisky, tourism, call centres to name some. It would also be the responsibility of any new government responsibility to develop more.

One of the tragedies however, is that unlike Norway, an oil fund has not been set up to help pump-prime new industries for when the oil does run out.

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 12:46:29

Do people not think that Scotland already generates wealth? Has tax payers? Employment?

All these things are happening.

Just like we already manage many devolved areas and budgets.

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 12:47:10

And the money we're given to manage these things is entirely proportional to what we generate.

I do think an oil fund needs to be set up. I would also like to see an incentive to companies to open up industry in Scotland, creating more jobs and generating more wealth/opportunities.

London and SE England are the epicentre of everything and it just isnt fair.

shesariver Wed 14-Nov-12 12:53:40

To be rid of the Tories once and for all thats a good enough reason for me.....there are more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs just now, but one is one too many!

merlottits Wed 14-Nov-12 12:55:30

My DH is a Scot living in England. Definitely against as are all his family and friends. I think most of them are realistic about Scotlands survival 'on it's own'. Great in theory.

Why does any country want independence? To not be ruled by those perceived to be outsiders. Scotland is considerably more socialist in outlook than England; but with just a tenth of the population of England, it will always be outvoted in Westminster.

lollilou Wed 14-Nov-12 12:58:14

As a human race how can we move forward as a whole when some people want to carve up the UK into little pieces. Surely this is only going to breed more hatred and racism between England, Scotland and Wales. We should be looking to the future as one nation.

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 12:58:40

My councillor is a Conservative and is extremely good! smile

It does help that he's "the only Tory on the council" and as such, not bound by any vested interests. So much so, that I voted for him in the recent council elections. The only time I have ever voted Tory blush

His girlfriend is SNP though grin

ScarlettCrossbones Wed 14-Nov-12 12:59:46

• To give us the right to determine our own futures
• To be governed by people we have actually voted for
• Because we would be fine, financially
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/4235-would-an-independent-scotland-be-financially-sound

"... on 13 January 1997 when, in reply to a series of questions put by SNP Leader in the Commons, Alex Salmond MP to the then Tory government, Treasury Minister William Waldegrave admitted that Scotland had paid a massive £27 billion more to the London Exchequer than it had received since the Tories came to power in 1979. Statistically this works out at £5,400 for every Scot. There were no attempts to refute these figures, which caused much embarrassment to the Tory Government of the day. However, the facts were quickly covered up by the Unionist controlled media. "

"...based on Scotland's GDP per capita, Scotland would occupy 7th place in the world's wealth league. The UK was at 17th Place."

"taking the year 2006 as a benchmark, I found that Scotland had an annual relative surplus of £2,8 billion, which works out at £560 for every man, woman and child. In contrast the UK had a deficit of £34.8 billion. "

More to the point, can the No campaign give us a positive reason for STAYING in the union? Things like BonaDea's "I hate the idea" is not very convincing ... WHY do you hate the idea? And merlotits, WHY does your DH think Scotland wouldn't survive?

Seriously, if you're living in Scotland and worried, simply do your research. So much of it is, unsurprisingly, covered up by the pro-unionist media. It's just a fear of the unknown. Independence is a normal state of affairs for a small country such as ours, and honestly, it will be fine. Better than fine. thanks

Shesparkles Wed 14-Nov-12 12:59:50

Scottish living in Scotland here.
Totally and absolutely against it. I know only 2 people who are in favour and they have been SNP supporters all my life.
Politics are NOT spoken about in their company grin

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 13:00:47

Having grown up with my Scottish relations quite keen on the idea, I can say it's definitely not a new notion: some Scots have wanted this for many decades. Don't underestimate how ingrained and emotional it is. Not SNP supporters necessarily (there was a time when the SNP were thought of on a par with the Tories almost) but Old Labour types who have seen the Party go down the pan, are watching England slowly implode financially and socially, and have seen better socialist policies being pursued up here over the past few years than they could have dreamed of, the downside being that it's an inherently mistrusted SNP majority which is delivering them.

There is not enough information. Salmond and the Yes lobby are not being trusted to be truthful, it's obvious that Scotland has been massaged into accepting independence by things like free prescriptions and free tertiary education, and if we don't see something very concrete very soon about the sustainability of those sorts of things (better elderly care provision, for example, is going to affect a large number of the people I mentioned initially, very soon) then it's going to be tougher for the SNP. People do want answers.

But we watch the goings-on doon sooth and cannot figure out how the next election is going to go. Labour haven't sprung back from defeat and Miliband isn't a convincing prime minister. Obviously the Lib Dems are utterly fucked. Hardly anyone professes to support the Tories but when it comes to it, who the hell does the small-c conservative vote for now the LDs aren't anywhere?

Contrast that with up here, where we are being led, we are being provided for...lots and lots of Scots don't want to be part of whatever the hell is going on with your politics, which have forever left many people here feeling provincial and patronised. Right now you seem to be puttering out under the Tories. It doesn't matter that it's this temporary Tory government, they're all the same. Cameron's government is managing to compound the emotional response a good number of older Scots have to independence. Salmond must be rubbing his hands.

ScarlettCrossbones Wed 14-Nov-12 13:00:50

lollilou, by extension, should the whole world be a single country then? grin

ScarlettCrossbones Wed 14-Nov-12 13:02:26

Shesparkles, what are your reasons for being against it?

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 13:11:10

whereyouleftit sums it up. In many ways I feel it's the only way for us to go to ensure we don't lose our integrity.

LessMissAbs Wed 14-Nov-12 13:13:00

Its so the SNP can control a small country and give all the jobs and contracts to their friends and cronies, of course!

Bleating on about socialism and helping the poor is simply a means of convincing that sector of society to stay where they are and vote for them.

somebloke123 Wed 14-Nov-12 13:13:36

Independence for Scotland is a perfectly reasonable aspiration. (I'm English btw.) It might become another Iceland , a much smaller country but which (despite recent banking problems) retains control of its fisheries and other resources.

What doesn't make sense is for it to become "independent" but remain in the EU, where it would just be one more region (possibly forced to join the Euro) to be pushed around by Brussels with no political clout whatever.

lollilou Wed 14-Nov-12 13:13:37

ScarlettCrossbones One step at a time.smile

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 13:13:57

Scotland is not a right wing nation. Our vote counts for nothing on a national level. I want to feel listened to and respected not constantly cast as the poor relation bleating in the corners about how they'd do it differently. I want us to stand up and get on with it. We might not rule the world or start wars but we'll be just fine.

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 13:16:19

That small country is the only one the snp care about though - what you say is quite odd, as if the Scottish Nationalists are just on the hunt for any random small country.

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 13:17:27

"I don't think the rest of Britain would or should just hand over large swathes of the North Sea."

You mean Scotland's coastline? As someone up thread said, I don't see how you can argue with Geography.

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 13:17:37

Should Ireland have been allowed independence from the UK?

Should Iceland have been allowed independence from Denmark?

Should Greenland be part of Denmark?

Should Norway be part of Sweden?

Actually, the Scandinavian countries are an interesting example: tensions while they were "together" but a strong block of friends with common interests once they were allowed to stand on their own.

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 13:18:57

Also, this notion that voting for Independence means being ruled by the SNP forever is bizarre.

It would still be a Democratic country.

Can I ask a question please? A couple of people have mentioned different values. Can I ask what you perceive these to be? I'm English and have lived in Scotland. The furthest south I've lived is Birmingham and have never noticed a big difference in values. I have always lived in largely labour voting, working class areas. I just wonder whether its London, South East and wealthy areas that have the different values iyswim.

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 13:22:21

Psst it was Denmark which ruled Norway for donkey's years...

lol at "you can't argue with geography" the idea that an independent country shouldn't for some reason have control over its coastline and waters is laughable.

Aboutlastnight Wed 14-Nov-12 13:24:16

I am English living in Scotland and I think, on balance, I am pro- independence.

Scottish Labour is a not fit to run a country. I like the way the Scottish Government spends my money - free prescriptions, care for the elderly, I like the education system and Scotland's NHS.

I feel the country is rather hamstrung by the policies of Westminster which is often at odds with the needs and aspirations of the people. Independence is an exciting prospect.

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 13:25:10

EnglishGirlApprox I don't think we do have different values, really. Personally I don't like that phrase being used.

I do think there's a different 'feel' to Scotland but it's the same sort of indefinable difference as you get between regions (within Scotland as well), and not really part of a political discussion.

maddening Wed 14-Nov-12 13:25:39

There is a tense history between England and Scotland going back centuries.

Even relatively recently huge oppression of the Scottish national identity - the same in Wales - my friend's mum was made to wear a slate round her neck for speaking Welsh in school.

So with this still in living memory plus a rejuvenation of the national identities it is hardly surprising that there is an appetite for it - how to do it is another question.

I am English but I love Scotland and went to uni there and hope to move ( or emigrate smile ) back there eventually as it is an amazing place.

shesariver Wed 14-Nov-12 13:26:18

I don't think the rest of Britain would or should just hand over large swathes of the North Sea

A bit confused here - are you saying Scotlands coastline doesnt actually belong to Scotland but England or Wales?
Going by that logic I want to claim the oil producing waters in the Middle east as ours to!

Belmo Wed 14-Nov-12 13:28:33

I'm Scottish, and every single person I've ever spoken to about it will be voting for independence. I can't wait. We didn't vote for this Tory government. I think the SNP have been fantastic.

Scotland doesn't, Alex Salmond does. I'm Scottish, married to a Scot, and though we don't live in Scotland currently, I absolutely do not want Scottish independance.

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 13:29:27

One example would be during the referendum about whether we wanted devolution, we were also asked if we wanted tax varying powers (of up to 3 per cent, iirc). Now everyone knew that if it were implemented, it would be to increase tax, not to reduce it - yet we still voted for it.

I remember Marti Pellow being interviewed on Radio 2 and making the point that he didn't mind paying more tax if it could help people like his brother, who needed support.

There was a recent survey on tax and apparently even amongst higher rate tax payers, there was a consensus that if more taxation was required in order to retain services, then that was OK. (Can't find a link for more detail, sorry)

Groovee Wed 14-Nov-12 13:29:58

Actually it's Mr Salmond who wants Scotland to breakaway. He forgets that we'll loose the purse strings off Westminster if he gets his way.

Aboutlastnight Wed 14-Nov-12 13:31:12

In culture I find strong principles of fairness and equality up here, there is still a strong working class culture, trades union membership, still a strong folk memory of hard times and poverty.

I grew up in the south east of England and I would say that the culture is more individualist, less communal and more about what you can achieve yourself rather than as a society.

But I'm probably wrong, no doubt someone Scottish will come along and tell me I am completely wrong as there is also a strong culture of debate and a dislike of Engludh people talking about Scottidh things smile

LessMissAbs Wed 14-Nov-12 13:31:58

Mrs Keith Richards
Scotland is not a right wing nation

Thats the sort of viewpoint that makes me want to leave Scotland if it becomes independent. Its so intolerant, and so dictatorial. I'm afraid I don't fall for the "right wing is bad, left wing is good (as long as we get to hob nob with every American billionaire that courts us and throw out our principles when it suits us)" rhetoric.

A balanced country represents all interests. Scotland was traditionally right wing and rather rural and presbyterian until very recent years. Personally I rather like coalition governments.

Our vote counts for nothing on a national level

I suppose holding sway over the Government that ruled the entire UK despite England voting a different way for the past 10 years has passed you by?

If Scotland was a truly socialist left wing country, we would have (a) excellent public transport (instead of just pretending we do) and (b) robust planning laws which wouldn't permit our First Minister to personally throw away the rules which apply to everyone else so he can follow his personal obsession with celebrity and money.

Oh, and he'd also do something about the cybernats...

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 13:33:25

(Denmark initially ruled Norway - but laterally it was Sweden and Norway had to argue the case for "separation" from Sweden - which I felt was more pertinent to the current discussion)

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 13:36:10

(lol prettybird so it was, apologies)

LessMissAbs Wed 14-Nov-12 13:40:20

I also find the debate on "Scottish identity and culture" essentially missing and partially uninformed.

It seems to consist of statements that Scotland or anything Scottish is wonderful and superior, horror and bitter criticism of anyone who disagrees, and constant propoganda by way of tv programmes along the theme of "10 Greatest Scots Explorers", "10 Greatest Scots Musicians" etc, constantly.

Things I can't help but observing as a Scot having lived in various countries and planning my escape if Independence does happen:

- too much obsession with money, while all the time pretending to be socialist.

- old fashioned sexism towards women

- an education system which tends to produce pupils who are afraid to speak in public, or even in university tutorials

- a very poor localised transport infracstructure, whilst having autonomy over the subject for a long time, allied with failure to do anything about it

- a cynical working culture - too many not very many clever people able to make a lot of money by being awarded overpaid work by their cronies, while the clever, qualified people do the poorly paid jobs

- despite years of Socialists politics, the total failure to eradicate poverty

- a lack of tolerance towards any constructive criticism

- with the trades union movement, the attitudes, and so on, the country it most reminds me of is the former East Germany.

Aboutlastnight Wed 14-Nov-12 13:42:28

I just can't see a way forward for Scotland under Labour with the Tories in power in Westminster.

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 13:42:31

I think lots of people share the worries about Salmond and how he will handle big business. Supporters of independence too.

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 13:42:50

I remember years ago being on course for managers in the NHS (I lived in England at the time, so it was the English NHS). A guy from the Kings Fund talked to us about the history and values of the NHS: he said that WW2 had been a driving force behind the desier to set up the welfare state and the NHS as the "we're in it together" of the war had created a stronger sense of society and a need to care for others. He said that ever since then there had been a move back towards the "individual" and looking after yourself with the exception of Scotland - and he was most emphatic about that.

The interesting thing was, looking around the table, every single one of the attendees (who had all joined the NHS on a fast track managerial scheme from industry) were either Scottish or had chosen to go to university in Scotland - even though they now lived and worked in England.

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 13:43:51

Holding the sway?

That's not measurable! You could say Tesco staff hold the sway or quilters. Stupid statement.

The fact being Scotland's representation is completely over shadowed by the rest of the UK's voting. The current Tory situation being a good example.

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 13:46:20

Actually I think the debate here is not whether Scottish culture is superior or not.

It's also not about Scotland's perceived/very real shortcomings, but about being allowed a National identity.

I'm sure my family isn't the smartest or the wealthiest in the world but hey it's MY family.

To use Scotland's flaws as a deterrent for independence is just silly - why should there have to be "merit" behind the desire to be oneself?

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 13:47:36

I agree it's not about feeling superior, just different!

Aboutlastnight Wed 14-Nov-12 13:51:36

LessMiss - I do agree with the cronyism here and the sexism - but this is also evident in many large city councils in England.

Also the contradiction between a socialist ethos, trades union membership etc and a country which allows the bin men to choose to work shifts on a lucrative Sunday while female dominated carer/home help sectors also do hard physical work, have an emotional cost in caring for vulnerable people and yet are paid less - Scotland is not perfect but independence is an opportunity for re evaluation of what kind of country it is, and what it would like to be.

LessMissAbs Wed 14-Nov-12 13:52:36

I must apologise then, because I see the person, not the Nation State. I believe in people before nationalism, and fervent nationalism makes me feel a little bit sick. Its too close to racism for me, not in the traditional sense, because the SNP will take on allcomeers who pledge them money, but in the "you;re not part of our gang therefore you count for less/your views are less worthy/you won't get the priveleges party membership confers" sense.

btw MrsKeithRichards I know a number of Scottish farmers, who do actual hard, dirty physical labour on a day to day basis, who are strongly right wing and conservative. Denying the existence of an important part of the political spectrum because its more fashionable in certain circles to be left wing scares me. Its not the makings of a tolerant society.

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 13:54:42

Actually it is a thought: if we vote for independence, will there be a renewed vigour for the execrable heritage industry? Will we all start wearing tartan by choice? Will Carol still be allowed to do the Beechgrove Gairden?

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 13:55:04

Sorry did I say there was no one in Scotland with right wing leanings?

LessMissAbs Wed 14-Nov-12 13:56:15

aboutlastnight

"a country which allows the bin men to choose to work shifts on a lucrative Sunday while female dominated carer/home help sectors also do hard physical work, have an emotional cost in caring for vulnerable people and yet are paid less "

Ah, you've noticed that too, have you? And of course the rubbish doesn't get collected if it snows or rains, so they get paid triple time over Christmas?

Its just that the signs for an independent country are not good. I get the feeling all the bad things, which are currently not known that well, will simply be covered up all the more, and everyone will go about pretending its wonderful, while living with third world facilities. And anyone who dares to speak out is "unpatriotic" (and probably won't get a job if they don't tow the party line).

sleepyhead Wed 14-Nov-12 13:57:48

Well, you could argue that in an independent Scotland, those with a more conservative/right wing leaning could have a party to represent their views and might not be stuck with a single Tory MP.

I don't think the Conservative Party in the UK really reflects the views of the more right wing Scottish people I know either tbh.

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 13:58:31

Oh this makes me so cross!

What does Scotland's "cynical workforce" or "pseudo socialism" have to do with the right to independence?

Why should we have to defend Scottish culture?! WTF?

Do you go around demanding England or Morocco justify why they "deserve" to be a country?

sleepyhead Wed 14-Nov-12 14:00:33

What party line MissAbs? What makes you think that an independent Scotland would have an SNP government (in the medium to long term anyway)?

Who are you scared of? Noone knows what the political landscape would be in an independent Scotland. There's no reason that it should mirror the current one. It would be very freeing actually to be able to vote without considering the rest of the UK. I for one might vote differently.

Aboutlastnight Wed 14-Nov-12 14:02:07

Oh the culture thing is seperate to the independence debate - I am sure I could pick many aspects of the culture of the south east and conclude that indeed England is not capable of being independent of Scotland grin

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 14:04:37

i do think that the naysayers on independence all sound a bit bonkers. that's a problem for me, increasingly.

having said that, there was some professor in the papers a week or so ago warning that the edinburgh agreement made it so that we would only get to discuss the financials of secession (sharing debt etc) AFTER a yes vote. does anyone know if that's true? makes a yes vote impossible, i'd have thought.

ScarlettCrossbones Wed 14-Nov-12 14:05:34

Exactly, PoppyAmex. I have a feeling things would be a little different for the naysayers if the UK parliament had been based in Aberdeen for the last 200 years.

LessMissAbs Wed 14-Nov-12 14:06:44

Its just that the precedents the SNP are setting in the way they behave are not good, and I worry they are indicative of the way in which an independent Scotland would be run, as these matters are already under auotonomous control.

e.g. everyone has to submit to the ridiculously stringent, strict rules of the planning system. Unless you are an American billionaire with direct links with Alex Salmond. The fact that compulsary purchase in a private development was even seriously discussed in political circles fills me with fear.

Alex Salmond's publicity seeking with Lottery winners, simply because they give him party a million pound donation. This is presented as a "coo" for the SNP, even though he never had any interest in meeting them when they were "ordinary" working people.

The failure to crack down on, and indeed positive encouragement of, awarding big public sector contracts to cronies, permitting of poor work practices in relation to public services, the activities of "cybernats", the failure to identify and reward the intelligent academic and business minded people in the country (unless they are cronies), etc..

The switching from the "we must model ourselves on Ireland" to "we must model ourselves on Norway" when it suits. Bloody Norway is not somewhere I'd want to live, downtown Trondheim is full of people trudging about in the rain because the public transport is totally inefficient and they have road charging, and everyone drives hundreds of miles to shop in Sweden anyway! Its like something out of the Russian paper Pravda!

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 14:06:45

"Denying the existence of an important part of the political spectrum because its more fashionable in certain circles to be left wing scares me."

Yes, people have left wing principles because it's fashionable hmm

Well said, sleepyhead - this obsession with Alex Salmond/SNP is ridiculous; people seem to forget they would still be allowed to vote!

ScarlettCrossbones Wed 14-Nov-12 14:07:20

300!

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 14:08:33

I know a good number of people who'd vote for a more right wing party if it didn't mean a Westminster Tory being in power. OK so they are in the minority, but right now they have only a tiny voice, and when the LDs go (which they will) they will have nobody to even grudgingly vote for. There's every opportunity for a more right-wing party here.

Aboutlastnight Wed 14-Nov-12 14:13:29

But we will still live in a democracy if Scotland was independent - unless Alex Salmond plans on a dictatorship.

OneMoreChap Wed 14-Nov-12 14:15:56

Scotland is a country which - in general - seems to have a differing view on social responsibility; different laws; a different education system.

The current government does not seem to recognise this.

Following the lies by the Scottish Labour party over decades, and the absence of a mandate for either of the other main parties North of the border, good luck to the independence campaign.

LessMissAbs Wed 14-Nov-12 14:18:05

A democracy where the First Minister has already demonstrated the ability and tendency to intervene personally in public planning decisions?

The courts in Scotland only have a similar power in the most exceptional of cases, after considerable review of due process.

It doesn't sound like a very well planned or thought out democracy thats likely to have the correct checks and balances put into place. Most decision making in the Scottish Parliament is already done by relatively secretive "committee".

There are plenty of examples of "democracies" around the world, which in practice, are nothing but.

But I guess the main point is will people want to live in an independent Scotland? You may attract rat race dropouts, but normal, hard working people (not obsessed with unions) who just want a decent standard of living in return for their taxes? I'm not seeing whats on offer unless you're a crony at the top of the pile, or someone blinded by rheotric and on benefits.

Well, I'm leaning towards voting yes. I believe Scotland is capable of looking after itself, and that centralisation leads to massive inefficiencies. I want to get away from the Tories in the short term, and develop Scotland as a democratic free-thinking nation in the long term.

And to those talking about how Scotland would become more sexist, cronyist etc, in what way does the Union with England prevent that from happening now? Furthermore, we're not talking about seceding from the EU, and the ECHR is enshrined in Scots law and has been since 1998.

OneMoreChap Wed 14-Nov-12 14:20:29

BuntyCollocks
I'm Scottish, married to a Scot, and though we don't live in Scotland currently, I absolutely do not want Scottish independance.

Fortunately, perhaps, you won't get a vote then?
English, higher rate tax-payer, living and working in Scotland. I absolutely do want Scottish independence... and I get to vote grin

LessMisAbs, so in your words, people who want to live in an independent Scotland are:

Rat race dropouts
Cronies
Blinded by rhetoric and on benefits?

Charming. hmm

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 14:23:30

"A democracy where the First Minister has already demonstrated the ability and tendency to intervene personally in public planning decisions?"

Like LessMissAbs', many people's arguments against Independence are rooted on their aversion to Alex Salmond/SNP, which misses the point spectacularly.

Might as well make the referendum question: "Should Alex Salmond be the omnipotent Emperor of Scotland?"

LessMissAbs Wed 14-Nov-12 14:26:09

No, its an aversion to absolutism and to those who seek to avoid criticism.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 14-Nov-12 14:26:42

Had to smile at LessMiss' coo...

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 14:28:11

LessMiss fortunately you won't have to worry about that since you said you would leave Scotland if "Yes" wins

and you shan't be missed grin

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 14:29:00

This thread is making me lean towards yes, for the moment. grin
There are a lot of things to say about some people and their attitudes, some horrible ingrained types of behaviour and upbringing: but these aren't "Scottish" in and of themselves. I mean, to have on a list of reasons to not be an independent nation that Scotland is more sexist (highly disputable in any case!) is not really contributing to the political debate.

ScarlettCrossbones Wed 14-Nov-12 14:29:28

But LessMiss, that aversion also has nothing to do with independence.

And sexism, absolutism, cronyism, avoidance of criticism etc don't exist south of the border?

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 14:34:30

Nicola Sturgeon is the only politician I have come across who campaigned door-to-door, actually listened to what dh and I were saying and didn't talk across us. We actually had a good debate (and dh is not always the easiest of guys to argue with wink). I have a lot of time for her.

I have no idea who I would vote for if Scotland were to achieve independence. I'd like to hope that both the Labour and LibDem parties as well as the Tories could re-invent themselves in a way that was relevant to Scottish voters and not just toe the Westminster line. That way we could have a genuine choice and not just vote for monkeys in red blue yellow whatever colour rosettes.

ScarlettCrossbones Wed 14-Nov-12 14:34:50

These days I feel like a Scottish version of Bob Marley, just hangin' out with a beatific grin on my face going "Hey maaaaan, it'll be alright!" <peacesign> I'm almost certain we'll win independence in 2014. As one of my friends said "We just need that length of time to teach people not to worry [about Scotland post-independence]." smile

Most of the (few) people I know who are against independence are full of outraged bluster, huffing and puffing, risking their blood pressure and, um, not coming up with any convincing arguments which tempt me for a second to vote no.

grin at OneMoreChap.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 14:35:40

so to ignore LessMiss's weird ranting for a while, does anyone know if we are going to get the financials straight BEFORE the ballot?

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 14:39:13

I want the answer to that too, AitchTooOh. It is something of a deal breaker.

SundaeGirl Wed 14-Nov-12 14:40:32

I get to vote and I'll be voting no. No-one in my social group wants to separate so I think it does depend on which circles you move in.

It's all about understanding economics. Lots of 'Yes' people talk like caerlaverock 'federal UK', 'sterling bloc', etc. making assumptions about keeping the pound. Someone on here suggested that the Bank of England would be changing it's name (really). It's all so deluded. The English don't want a shared currency - they've spelled that out to Europe pretty clearly.

And why, why, do Yes types say they're going for 'independence' when the representation they have in Westminster is so much more significant than the influence they imagine we'd have in Europe. We'd be zero in Europe!

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 14:40:39

isn't it, though?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 14:41:57

what is your social circle, sundae? there presumably is a demographic element to this, where do you fit in, would you say?

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 14:43:03

From what I gather, the sums are still being done. It is a worry. And if we don't get to see the workings, well more fool them, really.

SundaeGirl Wed 14-Nov-12 14:44:13

Suburbs, central belt

mirry2 Wed 14-Nov-12 14:44:20

It seems to me that people wanting independence really want it for sentimental reasons and it is an anti England stance rather than a pro Scotland one. In some ways I hope Scotland gets its independence so that its people can feel they've put 2 fingers up to Westminster and England (Im leaving Wales out as I have never detected an anti Wales attitude) but I am concerned that it will damage Scottish/English relations at every level. I do beleive that most people in England are indifferent about Scots independence.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 14:45:38

of course, but what this prof was saying was that the embra agreement itself had signed off that england and scotland would only start negotiating the hard bits after the ballot was won. which is impossible. we're not all braveheart types, we want to know what will be the financial burden/gains.

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 14:47:58

Mirry1 among the older members of my family, who did have an anti-English agenda when I was growing up, I'm heartened to see they are approaching it positively: we can do this for ourselves, we can make it work. I'm surprised. (They were pretty bigoted against the English when I was a child. I went to university in England and lived there for a while. Nobody gave a shit about Scotland grin it was really liberating for me.)

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 14:48:43

suburbs, central belt... so, middle management types?

loads of my friends are pro. central belt, city types, uni, IT, media, creatives. plenty of cash swilling around.

mirry, re this sentimental/anti-english line. can't you see how patronising that is. you silly scots, you can't possibly understand this, you're so hysterical and emotional. <rubs heads> it's practically gaslighting and makes me absolutely fucking furious tbh.

mirry, re this sentimental/anti-english line. can't you see how patronising that is. you silly scots, you can't possibly understand this, you're so hysterical and emotional. <rubs heads> it's practically gaslighting and makes me absolutely fucking furious tbh.

This. Yyyyyyyyyyyyy!

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 14:51:24

Economics degree. Tick
Higher tax payer. Tick
Experience of the public sector. Tick
Experience of the private sector. Tick in fact majority of career in private sector, securing major sales
Have lived not just around the world but also in England. Tick
Live in middle class area. Tick
Have a range of friends most of whom are intelligent . Tick

So why wouldn't I understand the economics of potential independence? confused

cloutiedumpling Wed 14-Nov-12 14:52:08

I agree Aitch, we need to more about the financial stuff so we can make an informed choice. In principle I would be in favour of independence. As time goes on I feel I have less and less in common with the South of England. I do wonder though if it would be a financial disaster and if we would have to go cap in hand to England like we did after the Darien scheme.

ScarlettCrossbones Wed 14-Nov-12 14:52:56

Mirry2 how is gaining the right to govern our own country by politicians we have elected "sentimental"??

LadyBeagle Wed 14-Nov-12 14:53:45

I don't think it's an anti English stance at all Mirry, apart from a few people that will vote on sentiment rather than fact, and of course there are going to be people like that.
I'm still a don't know, my decision for a yes vote will be purely down to how far this Tory party will go, as it is a party that has no consequence in Scotland and I do not want to be ruled by a party that has only one MP in Westminster.
If I was going to go down the sentimental route I would actually stay with the union, but I'm waiting to see all the pros and cons before I vote.
I'm sure there are many Scots like me that will vote with their heads and not their hearts.

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 14:53:52

Cross posted with Sundaegirl.

I'll add in:
Central belt. Tick
Suburbs. Tick if you count an inner city "designed" district as a suburb - but it is very leafy wink

ScarlettCrossbones Wed 14-Nov-12 14:54:08

Yes, TooImmature. We're "too wee, too poor, too stupid." Obviously wink

(And you're too immature smile)

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 14:54:34

As much as it sticks in my craw to say it I'm middle class, suburban, central belt as are the circles I move in generally and I know a lot of pro.

Now that is the first and last time I've ever refereed to myself as middle class. Yuk. But for research purposes there you go! <off to bleach oneself>

mirry2 Wed 14-Nov-12 14:56:57

Aitch and tool my observations are based on scottish people i know, people i am related to even and visiting Scotland on numerous occasions. It may make you furious but that is how it comes across. Do you really think that some one who hold a different view to you is gaslighting?

SundaeGirl Wed 14-Nov-12 14:57:16

'loads of my friends are pro. central belt, city types, uni, IT, media, creatives. plenty of cash swilling around. ' Great. I'm wondering if you misunderstood my point though?

Just that none of my social circle are planning to vote Yes and that I guess it does depend which circles you move in as to perception of strength of feeling.

Most people I know are unenthusiastic about the mechanics of separating, and think that the costs will be significant and outweighs the benefits. One person I know works at a large organisation in Scotland, a top employer of thousands of Scots. Official line : We have no view on Independence. Private line: committees are putting in place strategies to move work overseas in the event of independence. Independence and the upheaval following it is a risk to international business, even if just a short term one.

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 14:58:46

I hear more anti-US or anti-Westminster sentiment these days than anti-English.

mirry2 Wed 14-Nov-12 15:00:43

Lady, maybe i'm basing my remarks on the fact that the Scots I know become very emotional when talking about Scots independence whereas the English don't.

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 15:03:22

Mirry1, eh? Why would English people get emotional about the future of a country that isn't theirs? Of course the Scots feel something stronger than indifference confused

Mirry, I object to the idea that I am making an important decision for the future of my country based solely on fuzzy sentimental down-the-English thinking. Perhaps the people you know are, but I can only speak for myself.

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 15:04:48

No, you speak for me too.

Central belt.
Rural.
Middle-class.
Public sector.
Degree in Scots law.
Scottish born, Scottish father, English mother, English husband. I'm not really anti-English. grin

LadyBeagle Wed 14-Nov-12 15:08:18

I got very emotional during the Olympics every time a Brit won a medal.
I get emotional about remembrance Sunday too.
But politically I could not bear a life under a Tory Government for years to come.
And if the choice is that, or living in a country that veers towards my politics, that will be the way I'll vote.

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 15:13:55

"And why, why, do Yes types say they're going for 'independence' when the representation they have in Westminster is so much more significant than the influence they imagine we'd have in Europe."

I know, we should be thankful for that, it should be good enough to have some say over our destiny - add that to the list, Scots are most ungrateful, I find!

"We'd be zero in Europe!"

Send the memo to Austria, Belgium, Denmark - they are TOO SMALL to count, in fact they are TOO SMALL to be a country. <gavel>

Thankfully you understand "economics" and could explain all this to us grin

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 15:15:25

hmmm, Mirry. so you're not patronising, you're merely a truth-teller, based on your own personal experiences? then i guess all the scottish people you know, are related to, and have met on your numerous are very stupid indeed, Mirry. seriously. all of them. i pity you, attracting these people, it must be awful.

SundaeGirl Wed 14-Nov-12 15:15:46

Mirry2 how is gaining the right to govern our own country by politicians we have elected "sentimental"??

Er, scarlettCrobones, do you watch the news? Do you see the Greeks and Spanish rioting? Because that's Europe.

At present, we DO govern our own country and elect our politicians. Scotland has far more representation than, say, areas of the north of England where there isn't a Tory in sight. We have a massive influence from local council, Scottish Government, Westminster. Then through being in the UK we have significant voice in Europe - a voice we would find reduced if we go it alone. And of course we would have zero influence over whichever of the Euro or Sterling we ended up with.

You know that Scottish politicians have more influence in England than English politicians do in Scotland?

SusanneLinder Wed 14-Nov-12 15:16:55

A huge majority of people I know want independence. And as others have pointed out and I am going to say AGAIN, you do NOT need to be an SNP supporter to want independence.Alex Salmond only brought this about and will steer the good ship Scotland into independence if the vote is yes. In 2016 it will be vote time again and you can vote for who you like.

And how an independent Scotland will look in the future will be up to the people that live there smile

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 15:17:26

"Most people I know are unenthusiastic about the mechanics of separating, and think that the costs will be significant and outweighs the benefits. "

Also, this is absolutely ridiculous and short-sighted! You are talking about a potential decision that would influence the life of my 7 month old DD and hopefully of many generations to come.

To reduce it to this greengrocer "Profit & Loss" outlook is just pedestrian.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 15:18:04

i feel for England, i really do... particularly the northerners, with whom i think we feel a general kinship. but we mustn't let that stymie us from pursuing our own path.

SundaeGirl Wed 14-Nov-12 15:19:02

I know, we should be thankful for that, it should be good enough to have some say over our destiny - add that to the list, Scots are most ungrateful, I find!

"We'd be zero in Europe!"

Send the memo to Austria, Belgium, Denmark - they are TOO SMALL to count, in fact they are TOO SMALL to be a country. <gavel>

Actually, I don't think I said we'd be zero in Europe because we're small. We'd be zero because our position of leverage is so weak. Hope that helps - it's always in the detail!

SundaeGirl Wed 14-Nov-12 15:23:24

I think you'll find 'Profit & Loss' will affect your DD, Poppy. It might not look so 'pedestrian' when it's affecting her prospects and quality of life.

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 15:23:34

Really? Please define "leverage" in the European Union context when compared to countries like Austria, Belgium or Denmark.

Explain exactly how much "leverage" Scotland has right now when it comes to their (not the UK's) fishing and agricultural quotas, for example?

LadyBeagle Wed 14-Nov-12 15:24:51

I agree that the system as it stands is ridiculous.
I don't believe that Scottish mps should ever vote on English affairs ,look at the university fees fiasco.
Utterly unfair and should we reject independence I think we should still have a stronger Scottish Parliament, with no say in anything that only affects England.
It's all so complicated isn't it?

mirry2 Wed 14-Nov-12 15:29:34

atch Why are you getting so wound up? I am allowed my point of view and you are allowed to rubbish it. I really don't mind

Scroobius Wed 14-Nov-12 15:31:57

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread so don't know if I'm repeating things but here goes.
I'm English, live in the North and have done all my life. I see the whole thing about not wanting to be governed by a Southern focussed Westminster because that's generally my opinion too. I also (although I'm not really old enough to remember) think that the Labour party becoming a much more 'Conservative' party has not helped matters as I believe that they stopped being the party that 'Northerners and Scots' could get behind to represent them.
One thing that does bother me is why the rest of Britain get no say in this.. I get that you wouldn't want Scotland to decide they want independence but not get it because 'Britain' had voted no, however what if Scotland votes no to independence? Do we then as Britain get the chance to say actually we want you out? I genuinely am not being antagonistic (I don't think I would vote this way) but I see a lot benefits that Scottish people get (through devolved powers i.e. prescriptions university etc) that English people don't and yet we all pay the same taxes to the same place (I think). Maybe English people (particularly Northerners who don't benefit from the South centric 'English' policies) woud like to say actually we don't want to be 'Britain' anymore?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 15:37:46

lol. 'why are you getting so wound up? i don't mind, I'm very reasonable and you're not... '

i mean if that isn't gaslighting..? grin

PS i'm not wound up. i'm sceptical that your opinion is based on anything other than prejudice on your part.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 15:41:15

agree that this is totally tricky for northerners and welsh, particularly the welsh.

the thing about the prescriptions is a red herring, though, that was a sensible decision by the SP iirc because administering the payment of prescriptions was actually costing as much as it would do just to forget about them. you need to find out if the same is happening in england and petition westminster to ditch the charges if so.

Scroobius Wed 14-Nov-12 15:43:48

Ah good point Aitch, have to say I don't know enough about any of this but my only standpoint as an English person who loves Scotland (and will be spending Christmas and New Year there) is a sentimental one; I'd prefer there not to be a split, I think particularly because I'm Northern it matters more than if this were Wales or Northern Ireland.

OneMoreChap What exactly does being a higher rate taxpayer have to do with the price of cheese? I may not be, but my husband is. Because you're a higher rate tax payer, your opinion is more valid? He also believes we shouldn't leave - is that more acceptable to you, you both being on an equal footing in monetary terms?

Bully for you, getting to vote. I'm sure you have an excellent understanding of everything Scottish because you live there, better than I, because despite my heritage, I live beyond the border. hmm

To join in the growing trend:

(Previously) Central Belt
Middle Class
Degree in both Scots and English Law
English grand-parent.

I'm only in England because my industry doesn't have any foothold in Scotland. If it did, we would move home in a heartbeat.

I 100% believe that Scotland uses it's money more effectively, i.e. free prescriptions etc. But that doesn't mean we should break away from the UK. Wales (my current residence) seems to have many of the same policies, and I don't hear them wanting to leave the Union.

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 15:45:20

Aitch be quiet, you clearly don't move in the "same circles" as these people.

<arf at middle management types - you can just see it>

mirry2 Wed 14-Nov-12 15:45:39

atch what do you mean by gaslghting?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 15:50:28

i mean that abusive behaviour where one partner asserts power over another by continually expressing a lack of faith in their abilities, by undermining them, and by, when challenged, saying things like 'why are you being so hysterical about this, look how calm i am'... and so on and so on, ever downwards.

SundaeGirl Wed 14-Nov-12 15:51:10

Poppy, I think it's been you and Aitch who've been most invested in the social circle thing. Up until you both started saying how professional your circles were everyone had just been saying 'well, the people I know think x'

moopoint Wed 14-Nov-12 15:51:44

I will not be voting for independace. It's a terrible idea, we would not be able to support ourselves in the long run. I don't think many people will vote independence unless Braveheart is on tv just before voting day and everyone turns into "FREEDOOOM!!" Mode

OneMoreChap Wed 14-Nov-12 15:52:40

Higher rate tax-payer is shorthand for I already pay a lot of tax, and am happy to pay more, as I expect to when Scotland becomes independent.

Wales is but a Principality and had been for centuries longer. The Union of the Crowns is all very well but the Act of Union is what I would like to see undone.

You chose where you live; I chose where I live.
Mine will be a country, in which I take citizenship. Yours won't.

It's our choice...

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 15:53:09

arf, Poppy. grin

i just wish we could trust someone, anyone for the real story on this. i can't take www.yesscotland.com a whole lot more seriously than www.yesunion.com or whatever. but it does seem to me like the media as a whole is very much pro-union.

and like i say, if it's true about the embra agreement and the financial negotiations then it will be impossible to vote yes.

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 15:55:22

Actually, I think you'll find I haven't mentioned "my social circles" at all, ever.

"No-one in my social group wants to separate so I think it does depend on which circles you move in."

You were the one who introduced that particular subject, Sundae - Aitch just replied to that.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 15:55:56

Except, Sundae, that's just completely untrue. You were the one who brought up social circles. " No-one in my social group wants to separate so I think it does depend on which circles you move in." i merely asked who you thought that group was.

christ, if we can't even expect faithful reporting on the same thread... what chance do we have of getting the straight dope from the press?

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 15:57:10

I know, Aitch.

I'm just fervently hoping all the intricacies will be seriously discussed in the next 2 years.

Furoshika Wed 14-Nov-12 15:57:57
grovel Wed 14-Nov-12 15:59:41

Well the two governments could even come to an agreement and share it with the population pre-referendum. But that would not tell us what the private sector would do.

LadyBeagle Wed 14-Nov-12 15:59:48

You don't have a lot of faith in the Scottish people then, do you moopoint?
I've already said upthread I will look at the pros and cons and decide accordingly. I'm 50/50 at the moment, but there's a couple of years to go.
But yeah, just shove on Braveheart and we'll all go to the polls in our kilts with our faces painted blue.
Because none of is capable of making a decision based on what is best for our country unless we're brainwashed by a crap movie.

Genuine question out of curiousity - what would happen to the Scottish Banks on independence, they can issue banknotes etc but RBS is owned by the UK gov't. HBOS partially so. Would Scotland get a share in the ownership? Clydesdale is owned by National Australia Bank Group.

(Note - Welsh person living in England so no strong views either way wink)

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 16:03:40

that's true, grovel. i imagine that a lot of private companies are coming up with an exit plan, should they need it. but that's actually only sensible risk management. it doesn't mean that they have to go, just that in the event that they want to, they have a plan in place. again, though, without some sense of the financials, this is all just make-believe anyway.

LadyBeagle Wed 14-Nov-12 16:04:15

I don't know Chaz, it's one of the questions I would need answered before I vote grin
Which is why I'm still undecided as are many, many Scots.

mirry2 Wed 14-Nov-12 16:05:44

Aitch I am entitled to my point of view and there's nothing wrong in wanting independence for sentimental reasons. i haven't said anything like 'you silly scots, you can't possibly understand this, you're so hysterical and emotional.' That is your (incorrect in my eyes) interpretation

Aitch, you're right in thinking that anyone writing about Scottish Independence is going to put their own slant on things. I guess the answer is to read a lot of different sources, including the White Paper when it comes out next year, and make up your own mind. At least with yesscotland.net you know what their agenda is!

mirry2 Wed 14-Nov-12 16:09:21

thanks for the lnk Furoshika - it seems that it's not me that's gaslighting

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 16:10:10

"I don't think many people will vote independence unless Braveheart is on tv just before voting day and everyone turns into "FREEDOOOM!!" Mode"

That's nice. Actually, this sort of stupid remark makes people vote "Yes" out of spite.

bunty we also live south of the border - due to DH job and there doesnt seem to be any way to move back to Scotland. sad

So although 'we' dont get a vote, I still have family and friends up there who do.

Doenst make our opinions/heritage less valid.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 16:14:41

" mirry2 Wed 14-Nov-12 14:44:20
It seems to me that people wanting independence really want it for sentimental reasons and it is an anti England stance rather than a pro Scotland one. In some ways I hope Scotland gets its independence so that its people can feel they've put 2 fingers up to Westminster and England (Im leaving Wales out as I have never detected an anti Wales attitude) but I am concerned that it will damage Scottish/English relations at every level. I do beleive that most people in England are indifferent about Scots independence."

well i guess i think your opinion, however firmly-held, is patronising nonsense. and if anything is going to damage Scottish/English relations at every level, it's going to be rubbish like that. so the English basically don't care but we're just desperate to put our two fingers up to you? so it's independence as a form of attention-seeking? can't you see how patronising that is?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 16:17:33

LOL 'it seems to me that it's not gaslighting'. of COURSE it does. grin
(actually i did write 'practically gaslighting' but let's not waste time with accuracies. not wanting to get too into this as it's not hugely relevant but as it happens, the response 'why are you so hysterical etc, i'm not' is classic gaslighting behaviour).

mirry2 Wed 14-Nov-12 16:18:39

open your eyes aich, open your eyes. and stop gaslighting me wink

I'm interested in the answer to Chaz's bank question too - anyone?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 16:20:04

arf. grin

so back to the point, then.

do you really think that there's nothing wrong in voting yes to independence for sentimental reasons? (i'd say that would be unimaginably stupid, for example).

grovel Wed 14-Nov-12 16:24:10

Of course there's nothing wrong with voting for independence for sentimental reasons - provided that you always wear a kilt and restrict to diet to shortbread from a tartan tin.

moopoint Wed 14-Nov-12 16:24:15

It isn't that I don't have faith in the Scottish people, I don't have faith in Alex salmond or any other politician to be honest.

My Braveheart comment was meant to be light hearted, that's why I crossed it out.

moopoint Wed 14-Nov-12 16:28:35

And the notion of people voting yes out of spite to a Braveheart comment on mumsnet is ridiculous

Oh, and so Greece and Spain are rioting (apparently because that's what happens to non-UK members of the EU hmm), so should we take away their ability to govern themselves because they've shown they can't handle it?

Sorry, I know the thread has moved on a lot, but I was thinking about it while loading the dishwasher and suddenly remembered that comment.

Moo, politicians are a necessary evil - but there are thousands of Scots in public service struggling to do as good a job as possible. I have faith in them.

mirry2 Wed 14-Nov-12 16:33:21

Whichever way the vote goes I just hope it's a stonking great majority

PoppyAmex Wed 14-Nov-12 16:33:35

But I was being lighthearted too, moopoint!

"And the notion of people voting yes out of spite to a Braveheart comment on mumsnet is ridiculous"

And the notion of people voting yes because they watched Braveheart that day is also ridiculous, no?

TooImmature, this is what I keep saying - I find it so insulting that the debate is not about whether Independence is good for Scotland or not, but whether Scotland "deserves" to be a country or not.

SunsetSongster Wed 14-Nov-12 16:37:25

Chazs apparently RBS are saying they will leave Scotland if there is a yes vote...
I am a Scot living down south and while I am sad that I can't vote I think it's the right thing. I think the prospect of independence scares me a bit but I don't know how much that is to do with feeling that I no longer live in my own country. My social circle at home seem to be against independence but I get the feeling that there is growing support elsewhere. Don't be confused though with SNP being in power and Scots supporting independence though - I think it is more to do with people being sick of the Labour/Lib Dem's and the Tories not really being an alternative. Coming from a rural area in Scotland I am a bit suspicious of the SNP as all we've seen is cuts to vital services since they have come in. I think Scotland gets extra money because it has a large rural population and I feel that the rural areas have been getting less so they can bring in crowd pleasing policies (which I think are brilliant if the sums add up).
I would want to know more about what Scotland's currency would be if we were to be independent and what our voting rights in the EU would be. I think that is the difference with established small European countries like Austria - we would join on less favourable terms than them.
One thing I also find interesting is that at the moment students from other EU countries have to get the same terms as Scottish students. As NI students can have Irish passports apparently they don't have to pay tuition fees if they go to Scottish Universities whereas English students do. Would this mean English students could go to Scottish unis for free after independence? I know where I'll be encouraging DS to go grin - wish he could spend more time up there now!

moopoint Wed 14-Nov-12 16:38:55

It is ridiculous but you must think that you'll get some utter fuckwits that will vote yes because 'all English people are arseholes' and we used to battle hundreds of years ago.

DISCLAIMER this isn't my viewpoint. My lovely Dp is English.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 16:44:53

let's just assume, though, that the 'utter fuckwit' section of the population is not present on MN and stop talking about them as if they're at all significant. that would actually be huge progress on these threads.

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 16:46:39

I will admit to having a negative thing about English sports broadcasting and their compulsion to bring England into the discussion no matter which countries are playing and to bring up the fact that England won the World Cup in 1966

But that is not a reason to vote yes or no to independence much as I would like it to be wink

grovel Wed 14-Nov-12 16:46:49

I like Andy Murray.

Would I have to stop supporting him?

That could be the clincher. Not that I've got a vote.

SunsetSongster, love the name! Am guessing which part of rural Scotland you come from. smile

moopoint Wed 14-Nov-12 16:50:41

Votes from anyone are significant. That's the point. You're vote still counts no matter who you are.

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 16:58:29

Typically pro-unionist headline from the Scotsman "Scottish independence: RBS could move HQ after independence, warns bank chief" - but in the meat of the article, what he actually says is "“We have no intention or plan to relocate from Scotland,” he told peers. However, he added: “If as a result of independence we found extra difficulties or cost pressures or whatever arising from that, then we would have to think about other alternatives.”"

There's a big jump from that to "The RBS is planning on moving" hmm

Banks and other large institutions are always threatening to move if they don't like the particular conditions of where they are located. That has been one of Westminster's arguments for not bringing in greater controls over the banks "because there would be an exodus from London". hmm

"Votes from anyone are significant. That's the point. You're vote still counts no matter who you are."
Which neatly brings us back to the point that independence is desired because of the perception that your vote counts not one whit, because the nation next door outnumbers you ten to one.

LadyBeagle Wed 14-Nov-12 17:02:24

I remember when we had the referendum about the Scottish Parliament, and the number of people (including my English ex) said, in a group of four of us that they (that's the Scots BTW) were not ready to make our own decisions.
He was backed up by the English girl while me and the other Scot just looked like this shock.
History repeating itself.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 17:02:42

should have said 'statistically significant', i fear.

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 17:17:54

There are many things I don't like about Scotland:

The "I kent your faither" attitude (ie don't get too big for your boots)
The West of Scotland sectarianism
The whole Celtic-Rangers rivalry (and The Rangers hasn't changed that)
Separate State schools for Catholics
The blinkered Labour voting (as they say, you could put up a monkey in a red rosette and they'd still vote for them) because of an even more blinkered hatred of the Tories (and I say that as someone who was brought up as a Labour voter but who was thoroughly disillusioned by the New Tory Labour party who sold their soul to get the Middle England vote sad)
The parochialism and cronyism of some of the councils

But none of those are actual reasons against independence or for the Union. They are things that need to be worked on and challenged.

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 18:10:04

There are catholic state schools which catholics can go to. They aren't all forced into one!
And did you see the gubbing labour took last year?

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 18:28:14

Not enough of a gubbing where I am winkgrin I still have a Labour MP hmm

The separate Catholic schools just seems crazy - where I am, the "Catholic" school is almost exclusively Muslim and Sikh confused. It's also half full, while the non-denom school just along the road is bursting at the seams.

I also think that the separate schooling encourages sectarianism - but I know that there are many that disagree. I personally don't think that religion (as opposed to RME) has any place in any state school.

But that's a whole different can of worms and probably should be kept out of the pro/anti Independence discussions grin

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 18:33:15

Meant to include that in the local elections, my representation didn't change (and not did control of the Council): my ward is represented by one Labour, one SNP and one Tory councillor. Go figure those demographics!

Doha Wed 14-Nov-12 19:00:01

I'm Scottish living in Scotland .

There is a huge support for independence among my family and friends. I am probably going to vote yes however what holds me back is that twat Alex Salmond --l am not sure he is fit to lead us as an independent nation, Nicola Sturgeon now there is a good leader for us.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 14-Nov-12 19:42:52

if it comes in, it should be so interesting to see what happens to the tories in scotland. i quite like a rural Scottish tory, tbh, or men like Teddy Taylor who we had for many years in Glasgow. Thatcher and what came after ruined those people, really, but they'll be able to come back and actually stand for scottish conservatism now, if we were separate.

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 20:45:24

So does the rest of the U.K. not have catholic schools? Aren't there state CofE schools though?

We live in interesting times! Or we might do.

prettybird Wed 14-Nov-12 21:12:10

As I understand it (via the wisdom of MN, never having had kids in England), the CofE and Catholic schools in England are grant aided, so although "free", are not 100% state in the way that the Catholic school are in Scotland (as well as, iirc, the one Jewish school and the Church of Scotland school). There are defined catchments just as with the non-denom schools.

That's why councils have to consult when proposing closing Catholic schools.

But as I say, it's a separate issue to the one of independence.

ScarlettCrossbones Wed 14-Nov-12 22:54:05

But Doha,if Salmond is "not fit to lead us", then he'll be voted out 2 years after the referendum. It's the rest of eternity we're talking about here :-D... having Salmond for the odd extra year or two after independence really isn't a reason to vote no! (I do see you are swaying toward a yes vote, though; good stuff! :-))

mrskeithrichards Wed 14-Nov-12 22:56:03

Ah I see thank you pretty!!

ScarlettCrossbones Wed 14-Nov-12 22:56:44

Ach, forgot the proper way to do smilies on my phone ... I'm definitely not bright enough to cope with independence wink

twooter Wed 14-Nov-12 23:04:44

I'm really worried about independence. Don't know anyone locally who want it, but hear enough from friends of friends to worry. Agree that it does seem a bit fixed with respect to dates - hoping to push it through on a waft of Scottish patriotism following the Glasgow commonwealth games. Just wish it had been this year - I've never seen o many union jacks around - its as if its been reclaimed for the people rather than just rangers fans.

And tourism may well not be such a big economic factor if we continue to get wind farms and massive power lines being built in all the glorious areas, and identikit housing estates that spread fo miles.

twooter Wed 14-Nov-12 23:08:05

Didn't snp get in as partly as a protest vote against labour?

I fear for the education as well. I have no faith in the curriculum for excellence, I worry about there being sufficient university places for Scots - will they soon be favouring the paying English??

Rant over.

wigglybeezer Wed 14-Nov-12 23:20:35

My 14 year old is planning to vote yes and he hasn't even seen Braveheart. I think the yes vote from teenagers is likely to be quite high.

I am a bit put off by Alex Salmond cozying up to anyone with a fat wallet I must admit.

TartanKitty Wed 14-Nov-12 23:32:56

I'll be voting Yes based on the fact it will be better for Scotland for decisions affecting us to be made here.

Westminster's own GERS figures show that if tax and spending stayed exactly the same we'd have an extra £500 for every man, woman and child in Scotland. We could then use that to improve services based on our needs and wants, such as protecting the NHS and universal benefits. That figure does take into account paying our share of national debt. It also takes into account paying for our share of Trident, which would be £250 million a year (running costs, that doesn't include the planned multi-billion-pound renewal) more to invest in growing our economy to create more jobs.

Speaking of Trident, an independent Scotland would also be able to remove these barbaric weapons of mass destruction from our soil/waters. We don't have a choice under Westminster but to have them housed 30miles from our largest city.

Aside from the economic argument, it is about our ability to choose: to choose a government that represents us; to choose to put looking after the most vulnerable before paying for nuclear weapons; to choose not to be involved in illegal wars; to choose to have our voice heard internationally.

If someone 'feels British' then I cannot tell them otherwise, it's an emotional argument and a personal thing. However, going on all evidence-based logic, what's best for Scotland is undoubtedly a Yes vote for independence.

Oh, and I'm Scottish though was born in England and have an English husband (who is also voting yes) and I've never seen Braveheart.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Thu 15-Nov-12 03:27:12

Twooter, the current SNP government in the Scottish Parliament won by a fucking landslide, within a system specifically set up to avoid such a situation.

(The Scottish Parliament as envisaged by the late, and much missed, Donald Dewar was always supposed to be more collaborative than antagonistic, more about the value of a particular policy than party politics. The list system was supposed to balance things out a bit, so that no political party should ever hold an overwhelming majority.)

How can you possibly describe that as a "protest vote against Labour"?

Aboutlastnight Thu 15-Nov-12 09:06:41

I still marvel at the fact the SNP won, despite having no support from the Scottish media --apart from the Sunday Herald, but that doesn't count...

mrskeithrichards Thu 15-Nov-12 09:11:48

The snp landslide took me by surprise as I yes expecting, in light of a Uk Tory government, for labour to reign supreme. The liberals have always done very well up here but since they hopped into bed with the enemy it would seem they've lost a lot of voters too.

mrskeithrichards Thu 15-Nov-12 09:17:41

*was not yes

Sarahplane Thu 15-Nov-12 09:29:46

No more Tories would be my main reason too, same for a lot of people I know. Also a say on weather nuclear weapons are dumped on us. Many many people are unhappy about trident.

prettybird Thu 15-Nov-12 11:15:57

Speaking of the SNP landslide, did anyone notice the yellow map of Scotland (denoting the election results) behind Cameron when he was signing the Embra Agreement? grin

Wonder if that was stage managed wink

LessMissAbs Thu 15-Nov-12 11:35:15

It always surprises me that Scotland is politically such a left wing country. Because most people here I speak to, my neighbours, colleages at work, and so on, seem to be conservative with a small "c", in that they dislike change and are quite money-focussed. Yet they will say they are socialist and want to pay more tax!

My guess is therefore that Labour took the place of the conservative party in Scotland, in that voters realised it would keep the status quo, whilst providing a sop to their consciences.

I wonder whether that same sector of Scotland would really want independence to rock the boat? I doubt it. Then again, I do a very few SNP supporters. They are very fervent, and get very worked up about it, and I kind of lose the will to live once they start, because they are so keen to convince you round to their viewpoint. Though unlike some staunch Labour supporters, I haven't actually been threatened with violence.

Perhaps they all fight each other now...I sometimes can't believe the sheer aggressiveness of the debate.

LessMissAbs Thu 15-Nov-12 11:35:15
"It always surprises me that Scotland is politically such a left wing country. Because most people here I speak to ... will say they are socialist and want to pay more tax!"

LessMissAbs Wed 14-Nov-12 13:31:58
"Mrs Keith Richards
Scotland is not a right wing nation
Thats the sort of viewpoint that makes me want to leave Scotland if it becomes independent. Its so intolerant, and so dictatorial.

Why is saying Scotland is not right wing intolerant and dictatorial, when you yourself now say it is left wing? confused

LessMissAbs Thu 15-Nov-12 12:13:49

WhereYouLeftIt (indeed), what is the point you are trying to make? Is it to pick me up, pedantically, on what I may have said, or is to debate on topics? If so, what is your point of interest?

I certainly do not speak for the whole nation of Scotland, I simply posted my personal experience as someone who lives here, along with a number of other posters who have done the same.

LessMissAbs Thu 15-Nov-12 12:15:05

But in actual fact, I was quoting MrsKeithRichards in your second quotation from me, above, not disagreeing with her...

SusanneLinder Thu 15-Nov-12 12:15:25

I actually DETEST Braveheart.Awful film with awful acting and equally awful Mel Gibson grin

I am voting yes based on what I think is best for my country, plus fed up of years of Tory/rightwing Labour policies. I am not a huge fan of Alex Salmond but in most cases, he hasn't done a bad job.

I hate bigotry, but am gonna be slightly two faced and say that I am quite pleased for some of the Catholic schools round here. Educationally , they are the top performing schools round here, and I am bloody selfish enough to want the best education for my daughter.Oh btw, she isn't Catholic, we got her a move cos she was bullied at her last school for being "differerent" (subsequent diagnosis of ASD). School has been excellent in providing support Just fabulous.

No anti-English bias here grin. I was born south of the border.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Thu 15-Nov-12 12:16:09

do you ever make any association between the words that are coming out of your mouth and the aggression with which you are met, LessMissAbs?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Thu 15-Nov-12 12:18:09

"My guess is therefore that Labour took the place of the conservative party in Scotland, in that voters realised it would keep the status quo, whilst providing a sop to their consciences."

can you explain this a little further, i genuinely don't understand what you mean.

My point is, I don't understand you. Another poster says something. You lambast her. You then say the same thing in different words and get all huffy when it is queried. I am left not knowing where you are coming from.

prettybird Thu 15-Nov-12 12:30:17

Could it be that the Scottish "conservatism" (small c), money-focussed approach (I was say "canny with money wink) is compatible with its left wing leanings due to its belief in society and the consequent responsibilities ?

... which takes us back to some of the earlier discussion about Scotland (or the majority of those in Scotland) having a different set of values.

That's why, as a higher rate tax payer, I am happy to pay more tax in order to ensure good services such as education, infrastucture and health and to protect the vulnerable in our society.

LessMissAbs Thu 15-Nov-12 12:40:45

WhereYouLeft its very simple - its all in quotation marks.

MrsKeithRichards said "Scotland is not a right wing nation". Not me. I then replied to her.

But this is an excellent example of the type of debate that is usual in Scottish politics, and indeed the Scottish Parliament. "You said", "No, I didn't", "Yes, you did". Like schoolchildren. It could quite possibly be played as a recording for some kind of torture treatment...

LessMissAbs Thu 15-Nov-12 12:43:11

Prettybird I too am happy to pay a bit more tax to get a better infrastructure. Just remind me where that infrastructure is, in terms of transport, in Edinburgh right now?

Is there an underground I can use, to reduce my 8 mile commute to work from 1 1/2 hours by bus and walking to a more manageable time?

We already pay more tax in Scotland btw, in terms of Council Tax.

sleepyhead Thu 15-Nov-12 12:49:51

You can't have an underground in Edinburgh (iirc) because it's built on rock. Waaay too expensive.

I do remember many years ago that there were plans to bring back the many, many miles of rail track that had been Beechamised (Morningside is a good example of somewhere that could be connected by rail to the city centre - that's a pain in the arse by car or bus at the moment). However the good citizens of the suburbs got organised and put a stop to that. Too many expensive properties with defunct railway lines at the bottom of the garden unfortunately.

I believe that the congestion charge proposal met with similar difficulties from those living in the leafier districts..

The city council have tried over the years to be fair.

LessMissAbs, you are becoming less understandable confused. It should be clear from my two posts that I am aware the it was MrsKeithRichards who said that "Scotland is not a right wing nation". Your reply to her jumped down her throat - "Thats the sort of viewpoint that makes me want to leave Scotland if it becomes independent. Its so intolerant, and so dictatorial." So I read that as meaning that you disagreed with her statement.

Which is why I could not understand why you then posted "It always surprises me that Scotland is politically such a left wing country", as this is what you appeared to so vehemently refute when MrsKeithRichards said it.

prettybird Thu 15-Nov-12 12:55:07

The trams in Edinburgh - now that's a whole separate issue! I would insert a grin - but it's probably gone beyond that for the people of Edinburgh wink.

The minority SNP government did try to stop it but was outvoted. More recently it was a case of so much money had been spent that it would be pointless to pull out. Whoever put together the original contract should be shot hang their head in shame.

The fact that we have major gaps in infrastructure (the non motorway between our 2 major cities for one), to me is not an argument against independence. That would something a government would have to do with the resources it has at its disposal. Already - and debatably - the Scottish Government is spending more on capital projects than technically it should. It's not sustainable long term.

I also think that we are putting too much into road infrastructure (trams notwithstanding) and should be doing more for public transport and cycling. But again, that depends on who we vote for.

I already pay over £2,600 in Council tax and I'm not even in the top band - I am fully aware of how much we have to pay!

OldLadyKnowsNothing Thu 15-Nov-12 12:56:53

LittleMiss, if your commute is 8 miles and it's taking 90 minutes by bus, save the fare money and walk, it'll be faster and healthier.

prettybird Thu 15-Nov-12 12:30:17
"Could it be that the Scottish "conservatism" (small c), money-focussed approach (I was say "canny with money ) is compatible with its left wing leanings due to its belief in society and the consequent responsibilities ?"

I absolutely agree. I think that Scottish conservatism is a more traditional form that the market-driven (aka Law of the Jungle, or Devil take the hindmost) version currently dominant in England.

I posted on another recent thread, AIBU to wonder if there is a difference between Scottish and English viewpoints as a society? and I'm going to cut&paste it here :

"I think there is a difference between the Scots and English mentality, and it arises from our histories, For me, Scotland is far less hierarchical than England. For example, in Medieval times, land was granted by the King to the Dukes, and by them to minor landowners, there were vassals, serfs etc. In Scotland, there was the Clan system, the land was collectively owned and defended. (Even today the concept of freehold and leasehold does not exist.) In religion, the Church of England has bishops, archbishops, vicars, deacons, sextons etc. and is headed by the Archbishop of Canterbury. The Church of Scotland has ministers, supported by Elders from their congregations, and head by the Moderator of the Assembly of the Church of Scotland, an elected post held for four years only.

IMO, this heritage of a flatter hierarchy is the basis for the more socialist cast to Scotland. As maybenow suggested, we do not see the state as separate from us, we see ourselves as collectively being the state.

Similarly, I think it may underpin out perceived 'chippyness'. In a flatter hierarchy, there is far less deference, because everyone is at the same level; so when someone tries to lord it over you (note: no Lords historically in Scotland, just clan Chiefs who had obligations to clan members as well as power) it is unjustified, and the person is deserving of being put in their place."

If such a fundemental difference in outlook does exist (I was merely voicing my opinion), it cannot be a surprise that independence would be sought.

In the Old Town there are all the tunnels and catacombs under South Bridge and Old College. You couldn't stick an underground through there.

Sleepyhead, I'd love to see the railways brought back as well. I live near the old Borders line and it would be great to be able to hop on a train and be in the city centre within 15 or 20 mins. I think there are plans underway to reopen the Borders line - great! The faster it comes the better. Don't mention the trams I was having a discussion with my sister yesterday about the proposed high-speed Edinburgh-Glasgow rail link as well - she commutes to Glasgow daily - and she was indignant that it's not planned until 2024.

sleepyhead Thu 15-Nov-12 13:08:13

The one thing that the trams will be good for tbh, is people travelling from Glasgow to Edinburgh. If you've ever done it by bus (as I did for 6 looooong months) you'll know the feeling of being tricked into a false sense of security as you get from Glasgow to the outskirts in what seems like no time at all, only to slow to a near standstill for those last few miles.

Aparently (according to a 600 driver dh spoke to) the buses will eventually terminate at the tram stop and you'll get the tram for that last bit which will make a massive time difference.

I'm not sure that upgrading and completing the M8, much as it needs it, will ever really help as the traffic at both ends is so dire.

I'm also not particularly excited by the fast trains. The reason I got the bus for those 6 months was I couldn't possibly afford the train. The Edinburgh to Glasgow link must be one of the most expensive train journeys, per mile, in the country. It'll only get pricier the faster it gets so probably no good for a commuter on an average wage.

LessMissAbs, what about cycling? Much quicker to cycle 8 miles than to bus it. When I go back to work after mat leave I have plans to cycle from Lasswade into the city centre not immediately, once I've readjusted to work, and not in January because it will be too dark

prettybird Thu 15-Nov-12 13:15:59

Have to say I'm only in favour of upgrading the A8 to motorway on safety grounds. Over the years, have become dubious about the benefits of more/wider roads/motorways as all that happens is that the traffic expands to fill it. People decide that it is feasible to live further away - and as you say, there is still the congestion within the urban areas themselves. I've seen that happening on the M62 corridor, the M25 and now in Scotland, with the M77. The M74 is probably the same - although it does make life easier for me when going down South smile

prettybird Thu 15-Nov-12 13:19:52

Whereyouleftit - that is beautifully worded smile

That would also fit in with the fact that sovereignty still resides with the Scottish people

mrskeithrichards Thu 15-Nov-12 13:23:01

Little miss where on earth are you commuting that takes 90 minutes? You can cover most of the central belt in that time!

sleepyhead Thu 15-Nov-12 13:24:58

Oh the new M74 is fab - I've got friends who live in Cambuslang and visiting them from the West End is so easy now.

I fully expect it to be nose-to-tail within 5 years though unfortunately.

prettybird Thu 15-Nov-12 13:27:50

It's great for getting to the new velodrome too - even though we're using it in exactly the wrong way - going on at one junction and off at the next blush

...but at least we're not doing it at rush hour (although Scottish rush hour is still nothing like English rush hour)

sleepyhead Thu 15-Nov-12 13:32:40

Yep. I use all the Glasgow motorways like that blush.

My name is sleepyhead and I am Part Of The Problem.

LessMissAbs Thu 15-Nov-12 23:15:19

MrsKeithRichards - Midlothian commuter town - 8 miles door to door, to Edinburgh City Centre, the West End, - 10 minute walk to bus stop - 10 minutes average wait for bus, unreliable, 10 minutes walk on other end, 55 mins - 1 hour on bus, stopping at every single stop, usually before traffic lights, to travel 8 miles. Its a bloody misery. If I drive, it takes 25 - 30 mins, but then I pay £20 a day to park!

Park and Ride option takes slightly longer as the Sheriffhall roundabout needs to be navigated and not possible to walk to it as the new, busy roads were built with no pavements.

This is the reality of living in modern day Scotland - I really wish I could see the investment in infrastructure the SNP talk about, and I don't have much faith in that which they promise, since they seem to base their transport thinking on junkets to places like Trondheim and Malaysia, rather than somewhere like Newcastlem, which has an excellent urban light railway.

prettybird Thu 15-Nov-12 23:39:58

My 3.1mile cycle to work used to take 17 minutes (without me trying to go faster). Quicker and more reliable than going by car (the Kingston Bridge clogs easily, especially going home). My base pace has since increased thanks to a cycling mad ds although I now work from home.

Think in your position I would prefer to cycle the 8 miles - not only would it be quicker but I would be getting fitter at the same time! grin I'm also not phased by cycling in traffic (although do look for reduced/traffic free alternatives). But then, I'm essentially lazy and liked being able to combine exercise with commuting wink

LessMissAbs Thu 15-Nov-12 23:57:41

I'm actually a competitive triathlete, but I cycle rarely -its on narrow, twisty, hill roads, and takes me 50 minutes at best. Thats 1 hr 40 mins cycling a day. Thats on my good racing bike, on a mountain bike or commuter bike it would take me over an hour. Of course at this time of year it would be in the dark, and most likely freezing rain or snow, on those narrow roads. I think I'd probably be killed - 3 of my competitors in the cycling world have been, over the years. I doubt it would do much for my racing performance either, because its not proper training, and I'd be literally bathing in carbon monoxide fumes. Two years ago I did combine a few cycles with running on alternate days, and ended up hospitalised with pneumonia.

Its about as practical as buying a 350k 2 bed flat in the New Town so I can live closer to my work.

Basically, I want to live in a country which is organised so that I don't base my entire life on getting to and from work, but can simply get on a local commuter train. I seriously doubt an indepdendent Scotland will deliver this, at least not in my working lifetime. I don't think the SNP cares about people like me.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 00:00:27

well hang on, you presumably moved to a 'commuter' town with no rail link. take some responsibility, for god's sake...

sleepyhead Fri 16-Nov-12 00:11:03

What, like Glasgow you mean? There's plenty not marvellous about this city, but the commuter trains are pretty great.

sleepyhead Fri 16-Nov-12 00:14:00

Edinburgh's got serious transport issues, but like I say, several solutions have been shouted down over the years by some pretty vocal and determined resident groups. You can't blame the SNP for the preferences of local council tax payers.

prettybird Fri 16-Nov-12 00:25:28

I'm still not clear why the Union would be better for cyclists? confused

There are many other arguments for and against Independence (and again, it's important not to conflate the SNP with Independence - there are many Labour, LibDem and even Conservative voters who agree with it) - but lack of infrastructure is not one I would have put top of the list. The freedom to make full choices - like VED and Petrol Duty could be arguments, as they are powers that the Scottish Government doesn't currently have control over.

Some argue that the SNP (as the current Scottish Government) are too "friendly" towards cars and are putting too much money into road infrastructure - I actually wouldn't disagree with that - but it's not necessarily the SNP that would be in charge should the Scots vote for Independence.

But I am struggling to see why you are blaming the SNP for the current infrastructure? Even when I lived in France, if you chose to live in a rural area, you had to accept that there were limitations in getting to places. Public transport wasn't wonderful. As I didn't drive at that time, I had to factor that in to where I lived.

I've commuted in the South East of England. I've commuted between Bolton and Leeds, between Glasgow and Ayr and between Glasgow and Kilmarnock (both before the M77). The time I took to commute (and the cost) was a choice - a trade-off between where I wanted/had to live (for whatever reason, be that partner, liking my house or not being able sell) and where I wanted (or needed) to work. Not the government's fault.

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 00:26:27

Moved from where Aitch? I grew up here. I did move into my own house of course. It didn't used to be a commuter town, and still largely isn't, in that it is a healthy traditional community in its own right. When I grew up (violins...), it was possible to commute in far less time than now. The planning policies have meant Midlothian is now full of new build housing estates, but they haven't put in any traffic infrastructure to cope with them. There is actually a disused railway station half a mile from my home...

I know you can't blame anything on the SNP, or indeed Labour, but you certainly can't blame any of that on me either!

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 00:34:08

Prettybird the commutes from Ayr and Kilmarnock to Glasgow are (a) far, far longer than the one I've got and (b) have railway commutes possible.

Infrastructure is top of my list from what I'm looking for on a day to day basis, because it affects my daily life so much. If people can't get to their jobs without a horrendous journey, and none of the politicians see it as a priority, whats the point in everything else?

I'm not really interested in the SNP's self serving esoteric rhetoric. I'm interested in actual physical infrastructure, like you get in other first world countries. And in a future thats likely to deliver non self-serving value for money solutions, not more cronyism and politicians congratulating themselves on how wonderful they are and how much they've done.

Cancelling prescription charges (I'd honestly rather pay for them and keep the free ones for those who can't afford them) and free bus travel for pensioners haven't done much for me. But as I say, people like me don't matter to the SNP, and I get the feeling they want to keep us quiet, because we're too much trouble.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 00:49:13

Agree, prettybird, about the trade-off between living where you want to and the commute times. if the traffic to Embra has got so much worse (and i certainly wouldn't want to commute there every day) then it's up to people who hate it to start petitioning for change. how you are more likely to get more frequent buses under the union is beyond me.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 00:50:46

btw, re this. "I know you can't blame anything on the SNP, or indeed Labour, but you certainly can't blame any of that on me either! "

again, i don't understand. do you think i am an SNP-ite? i'm really not.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 00:54:23

gawd, and sorry to be checking through your posts etc but you did say that you've lived in various countries (hence the reason you've formed the view that Scotland is crap) so in fact yes, you do have to take responsibility for where you live now, as you clearly moved back to a place without a rail link.

prettybird Fri 16-Nov-12 00:58:47

As others have said - alternatives have been proposed but stymied by NIMBYs, although there is a new railway being (re)built from the Borders. There is an equivalent problem in Glasgow with neither Renfrew nor the airport having a direct rail link. Glasgow is fortunate though to have a good suburban railway system (as well as our wee Clockwork Orange).

I agree: more should be done on public transport infrastructure. I also agree (I think) with you that the SNP talk a good game but are still putting too much into road infrastructure. I personally would prefer to see the money planned for the new Forth crossing spent on (proper) cycling infrastructure. I think all it will do is encourage more people to move to the Kingdom of Fife - and then complain about the traffic once they hit Edinburgh.

I would like to see a proper, integrated transport policy where all forms of transport - public, cars, roads, freight, cycling are considered holistically.

I actually understand and agree withthe free prescriptions: when it costs more to administer and also runs the risk of people not collecting their scripts so that they later present with more serious problems, then it makes sense to make them free for all.

The free buss pass I agree with you about! smile The money could be better spent elsewhere.

But those are the choices we make when we vote for any government. I don't feel I am "not listened to". I actually think that the SNP has made more of an effort to accommodate other opinions than the Labour and Libdem administration ever did. I think being a minority government for the first term helped. I do worry that too much of a majority is dangerous (for any government).

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 08:59:20

Aitch - I moved back to my own home. I fail to see why living in a town 8 miles from a country's capital city is viewed as so unreasonable by you.

Why is this relevant to independence? Because the people who are responsible for local planning decisions and the current infrastructure are those who would be responsible for even more major decisions under independence. At least membership of the UK ensures some checks and balances on them and a higher quality of properly scrutinised legislative output.

I also cannot understand a country whose politicians seems hellbent on continually controlling the lives of individual citizens to the nth degree, but who cannot sort out the basic infrastructure to acceptable first world standards. Which is damned strange in a country which everyone appears to agree is left wing and non-individualist in nature.

I also think a country gets the government its people deserve, and I'm not at all impressed with what the Scottish Government has "achieved" so far, nor the level of debate it produces. Much of it is so dire, it is an embarrassment to the country. What I would like to see is productiveness on real issues, basic infrastructure and encouraging a vibrant business culture, not vote-winners and treating the population as if they are children, but I hardly think that likely to happen.

The vote-grabbing gimmicks don't really make up for it. If there is independence, I'm out of here (assuming they don't put some kind of prohibitive tax on it). I feel utterly disenfranchised. I can only see life for me becoming worse under independence, as I will have to pay more tax for the dubious privelege of living here, and being told my views don't count.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 09:06:06

because it was a town 8 miles from the city's capital without a rail link. and now you're complaining that there isn't a rail link. duh.

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 09:07:25

Prettybird this: I actually understand and agree withthe free prescriptions: when it costs more to administer and also runs the risk of people not collecting their scripts so that they later present with more serious problems, then it makes sense to make them free for all

Are you really suggesting that the people of Scotland are less capable than those in the rest of the UK of managing to collect their own prescriptions?

Well if that is so, then independence is likely to be very expensive if people are to be so discouraged from taking responsibility for themselves!

PoppyAmex Fri 16-Nov-12 09:13:07

LessMiss I just realised that your problem isn't finding Independence unpalatable, you just don't like.... erm.... Scotland!

Most (if not all) the issues that seem to anger you aren't actually political

In your own words Scots are obsessed with money, pseudo socialists, sexist, can't speak in public (??), have a cynical working culture, are intolerant etc.

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 09:19:56

Aitch you are missing the point. The problem is lack of transport infrastructure for an increased population. A rail link can and should have been built by now. It should have been planned along with the massive number of new build housing estates in the area. And it would have been, if those purportedly left wing politicians any real interest in the people they are supposed to represent, rather than political rhetoric.

The point is that the recent policies of Scottish politicians, those who would lead an independent Scotland, have created a situation that is a nightmare for the people who live and work here. Many of the housing estates which contribute to the problem weren't here 3-4 years ago. Neither were the recent changes to the Edinburgh transport network.

Its unworkable.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 09:21:24

so you personally, lessmissabs, what action have you taken to improve things? how have you become involved?

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 09:24:23

Poppy perhaps so. I just can't understand why these basic things aren't done well here. Unfortunately I'm in a career whose qualification means most of my work is in Scotland, for the time being.

I do think a healthy debate should include some introspection and self criticism, and I'm tired of the constant "Scotland is wonderful and anyone who dares criticise it is BAD" nonsense.

Maybe also the talented Scots tend to leave the country? Does anyone think independence and the type of "new Scotland" it would produce would encourage them to stay?

prettybird Fri 16-Nov-12 09:30:37

No - people decide that they can't afford to pick up their prescriptions - and as a result may end up sicker. Or they may not go to the doctor at all until they're really ill.

That's why the Scottish NHS (and government then legislated) believes that it is more cost effective in the long run to have free prescriptions, once you factor in the cost of administering it (checking whether or not people are eligible for free prescriptions, balancing what has been paid) and the fact that people choose to go to see the doctor earlier and therefore may be able to be treated more cheaply.

I'd call that a good use of public money.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 09:34:18

but who is saying that anyone who dares criticise scotland is BAD? who's actually SAYING that? this is all so chippy and weird, i think.

seems to me that broadly speaking the answer to the OP, the one single reason why Scotland as a whole wants to quit the UK, is because we have no chance of having our left wing votes count in the national arena.

what's interesting is that you strike me as more right wing, but if so you under independence you are more likely to be represented locally by a tory than you are under current circumstance, precisely because of the iniquitous national situation.

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 09:41:15

Prettybird is all of that clinically proven? Or simply adding on one unproven fact to another?

I don't really care that much about prescriptions. I think theres some merit in encouraging people to take individual responsibility for their own health, to some extent. Free prescriptions were always available for those who could not afford to pay. Did pharmacists really have a problem with the admin in their work?

But god forbid that people should go to their doctor before they are really ill, or get a prescription needlessly. Does the NHS really encourage this? Surely theres always a sector of the population who will hold off seeing their doctor, and another sector who will make an appointment at the slightest thing. I doubt treating people as if they are stupid will change that.

I'm sorry, but theres something slightly unconvincing about this. And those behind the policy didn't present it as saving money, but as a money spend "for the benefit of the people of Scotland" and a vote winner for the SNP

prettybird Fri 16-Nov-12 09:41:53

I think PoppyAmex has put her finger on it.

BTW I have already mentioned a number of things I don't like about Scotland. It wasn't an exhaustive list. But having lived in many different places, it is still the country I would prefer to be.

When I lived in France, I was always careful to emphasise that I was "brittanique et ecossaise mais pas anglaise" as I was proud of being British. The pride in being British has been squashed (years of Thatcher and then an illegal war in Iraq and the New Tories and I don't mean the Conservative Party ) but I am still proud of being Scottish.

I am still looking for a positive reason for remaining part of the Union.

PoppyAmex Fri 16-Nov-12 09:53:53

"Maybe also the talented Scots tend to leave the country? Does anyone think independence and the type of "new Scotland" it would produce would encourage them to stay?"

I'm originally from Portugal and DH and I worked in the US, Israel and Australia. We made a conscious choice to live (and start a family) in Scotland because, like prettybird, it's the country where we prefer to be.

I'm currently on mat leave, but DH's career hasn't suffered at all with the move. even though he works for evil Murdoch

You said: I'm tired of the constant "Scotland is wonderful and anyone who dares criticise it is BAD" nonsense.

Actually I have often found the opposite, especially in the older generation, who have a bizarre inferiority complex when it comes to their Scottish nationality.

willstanton Fri 16-Nov-12 09:53:56

I am English living in England. I very much hope that the scots will vote for independence. I do not think it is in the best interests of Scotland - An independent Scotland should be stripped of all military support, the historic regiments and the RAF and Naval Bases. They can sort out their own defence. They would have to rejoin the EU on modern terms and would loose out all the opt-outs negotiated by Thatcher. However, it is nothing but good news for England. Our tax is used to subsidise prescriptions, health and educational services at a higher level in Scotland than in England. An independent Scotland would also equalise representation at Westminster and allow a Conservative Majority Government.

PoppyAmex Fri 16-Nov-12 09:56:23

Willstanton yes please. Promise you'll take your nuclear weapons too?

"However, it is nothing but good news for England."
"An independent Scotland would also equalise representation at Westminster and allow a Conservative Majority Government"

Yes, I could tell that your Tory Government is dying to get rid of us, our taxes and our natural resources hmm

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 10:11:44

we don't need an army... not when we've got Smeato. grin

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 10:12:12

Aitch what's interesting is that you strike me as more right wing, but if so you under independence you are more likely to be represented locally by a tory than you are under current circumstance, precisely because of the iniquitous national situation

I don't know if thats really true. I would say I was more right wing, but I'm strongly socialist on some issues. For instance I would rather pay high taxes and have an excellent system of public transport, the NHS and good education. And I do pay my tax and take relatively little from the system. I don't think in a lot of countries I would be considered that right wing really. I just don't make all those left wing statements about it. What I don't believe in is taking in a high tax revenue and wasting the money, and shouting down anyone who dares to speak out, or criticising them for being uncaring, or right wing, or whatever.

I also think there is a real vested interest in left wing circles in having a sector of the population who consider themselves poor and hard done by, but who always vote in a certain way. I also can't see why Scotland still hasn't eradicated poverty when other northern European nations who raise similar levels of tax and have similar advantages have done so. It doesn't make sense.

I also don't think its fair to say the Scots have no influence in UK government at all. In fact they pretty much caused England to have years of Labour government when it voted against it.

weegiemum Fri 16-Nov-12 10:13:56

My head says no

My heart says "hell, yes"

Not sure which to choose?

ByTheWay1 Fri 16-Nov-12 10:16:01

if Scotland doesn't join the EU as an independent country, does that mean that the remnants of Britain will no longer accept Scottish economic refugees?

I know an awful lot of Scots here in England because the money up home is crap if you can get a job at all.... (I was born in England raised from age 1 to 18 in Scotland and returned to England as an economic refugee myself...)

Aboutlastnight Fri 16-Nov-12 10:16:33

Re:free prescriptions - I'd also add there are many people with chronic conditions which require regular meds, such as diabetes, many people on warfarin, statins, thyroxin...

My dad lives in London and had type 2 diabetes controlled with medication and is really concerned about the long term cost of this.In Scotland I think there are many, especially elderly folk, who would just try to 'do without ' to save money and this puts enormous pressure on the already hard pressed emergency services.

Commuting: well this is not a Scottish problem, it is a national one. There are many places in England where transport is poor although the outskirts of London are reasonably well served - once you've paid £2000 for your season ticket. Careful what you wish for...

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 10:19:08

But it was always possible in Scotland before free prescriptions were introduced to buy a season ticket kind of payment (forget the exact name) for £12 for 12 weeks which would cover all prescription medicines, or similar, if I recall? Do you not have that in England Aboutlastnight?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 10:19:44

"What I don't believe in is taking in a high tax revenue and wasting the money, and shouting down anyone who dares to speak out, or criticising them for being uncaring, or right wing, or whatever."

but who would argue this point? who's arguing for wasting money and censorship?

sleepyhead Fri 16-Nov-12 10:25:19

Absolutely. I am also firmly against taking a high tax revenue and wasting the money, shouting down anyone who dares to speak out and criticising them for being uncaring, or right wing.

Down with all of that definitely!

Btw, what are these Northern European nations that have eradicated poverty on tax rates similar to the UK? Genuine question.

JennyPiccolo Fri 16-Nov-12 10:25:57

Some points:

1.Scotland has always always ALWAYS voted further left than the rest if the uk, so it's fair to say values are different.

2.wtf is a cyber nat? I hear this term bandied about a lot. Is it an snp supporter with a computer?

3. SCOTLAND IS NOT SCROUNGING OFF ENGLAND FFS.

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 10:28:09

Holland, Germany, Belguim...

Lets not forget to include all taxes that we pay in the UK - income tax, National Insurance and Council Tax. My Council Tax is currently over £200 a month for a 3 bed house.

forgetmenots Fri 16-Nov-12 10:28:49

No bunfight yet? I'll be voting yes. The reason?
I think that people should have the right and the ambition to govern themselves and under the present system Scottish people do not have this right over all matters.
I also don't believe my idea of unity ends at hadrians wall, but nor does it end at Dover. I'm someone who believes in genuine internationalism but can only do this as a fully-fledged country, an equal partner in the community of nations.
That's my 2p worth!

prettybird Fri 16-Nov-12 10:29:42

Interesting piece here which analyses the UK elections since 1945.

On only two occasions would the lack of Scottish MPs have changed the result: the second election in 1974, when Wilson would not have got his majority (although it's arguable whether he would even have had the minority government from the earlier election) and there would have been a hung parliament and more recently in 2010, when the Conservatives would have got a majority.

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 10:34:45

Cybernats are SNP supporters or party members who target people on internet forums and in real life who speak out about SNP policies or independence. So-called after their famous abuse of George Foulks. There have been alleged instances of them sending hate mail, and at the lesser end of the scale, the published exchanges have been very personalised and overly aggressive.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9129998/Welcome-to-planet-Cybernat-where-the-air-is-toxic.html

http://davidtorrance.com/cybernats-a-scottish-political-phenomenon/

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 10:36:05

do you think people here are cybernats, lessmissabs?

sleepyhead Fri 16-Nov-12 10:36:13

They all look to have higher tax rates than the UK

I think they might be surprised to be told they'd abolished poverty as well, although granted they're lower down in the table than the UK.

Germany has local income tax as well as national income tax. In fact, all countries have the sort of taxes that the UK has although they might be collected in different ways. Insurance costs for health care, for example, tend to be based on income however they're collected.

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 10:38:50

Aitch socialism and being left wing surely requires more than an ability to talk a good show and a desire to control people though? And is measured by actions and deeds, not words?

And why do posters such as yourself care so much about putting left wing and right wing labels on people? I'm actually left wing on some issues, right wing on others, and centrist on others. I don't think any party now is consistently right or left wing and wouldn't base my voting patterns on such an identity. Most political parties simply tailor their policies to whatever they think will keep them in power, and that goes for Scotland too.

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 10:42:47

Sleepyhead You just don't get so many people who admit to being poor and struggling to get by, the constant political debate about "eradicating poverty" and the benefits culture in these countries. And the infrastructure is more indicative of a wealthy country.

The local income tax in Germany cost me less than £100 a year. In practice, I suspect the tax you see disappearing from your pay packet is pretty much the same.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 10:43:22

oh, sorry, i was responding to the many, many, many times you mentioned the words 'left wing' ('so-called' or otherwise). i don't tend to speak in those terms myself, in fact i'd be inclined to think that it was the first time i'd used them on this thread. I presumed you were comfortable with them, having used them so often as a pejorative.

so to be clear. i'm not in the slightest bit obsessed with attaching political labels. i'm chatting online to my friend, a Belgian Turk, who is pissing herself laughing at the thought that poverty has been eradicated in her country.

i am a Scot living in Scotland and don't know of anyne who wants independence. Well, maybe Alex Salmond grin

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 10:44:02

Oh, and just to add, that local income tax gave me free access to the local (excellent) sports facilities.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 10:44:15

or is she a turkish belge? or a belgian? who knows?

prettybird Fri 16-Nov-12 10:44:31

But welfare and macroeconomic policy are not devolved powers - so it's actually an argument for independence and against Westminster, as it could be argued that it is the continued focus on the needs of London and the over heated South East that has resulted in continued high levels of poverty in Scotland. But there are areas of England that suffer from that too.

The abandonment of the manufacturing sector during the Thatcher years hit Scotland particularly badly.

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 10:46:16

Ah. I could have somehow guessed that Aitch.

If I can't use left wing, why do people keep calling me "right wing"?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 10:47:05

well, yes, prettybird. but i think she's not listening to you because she thinks you're a cybernat. (rather than a total MN saddo who's been here for YONKS. grin)

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 10:48:49

could've guessed what? not with you. confused

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 10:49:19

I don't think anyone on here is cybernat?

At least I hope not. Never let what someone has not said get in the way of political statement though, eh?

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 10:50:30

and you CAN use left wing. but you mustn't then, in fairness, accuse people of wanting to attach labels etc the first time someone says something as frankly milquetoast as 'you strike me as more right wing'.

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 10:50:34

However, if you are indeed a cybernat Aitch may your postings prosper!

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 10:51:41

oh, good. it's just that i thought you'd judiciously avoided answering that question before. so you don't think anyone on here is a plant, then? we're all just normal MNers talking?

good, no problem then.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 10:51:54

?

JennyPiccolo Fri 16-Nov-12 10:52:37

So cyber bats are the siol nan gaideal forum then?

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 10:58:58

You've lost me Aitch. I've been engaging with other posters on here, not just you.

Looking at that table of tax rates, I can't help noticing that the former Soviet block countries appear to pay more than 15% annual income tax. This sounds great - socialism must have done such a great job there.

I suspect what the headline rate of tax is and what people see disappearing from their pay packets are rather different.

I also notice all that the small countries like Iceland, Ireland and Ireland are very, very high tax. Now which of those is currently in favour with Alex Salmond right now? For a while we were all to model ourselves on Ireland, if I remember rightly. Its Norway at the moment, isn't it?

Although with his favourite ex pat actor's choice of residence, should it not be Babados?!?

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 11:00:12

none of the former Soviet block countries.

JennyPiccolo Fri 16-Nov-12 11:01:51

You'll note though that Ireland still aren't wanting to rejoin the uk.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 11:07:44

I'VE lost you? lol. grin

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Fri 16-Nov-12 11:08:51

(shoudl the mention of that aging buffoon be like a Godwin's Law on these threads? Connery's Law?)

prettybird Fri 16-Nov-12 11:12:49

I've actually tried very hard not to be biased in my comments.

I am actually comfortable to be labelled "left of centre" even I did vote for a Tory in the local elections blush as it accords with the values I was brought up with. I also think those values are not totally incompatible with the "old" Scottish Tories, even though I disagree with some of their approaches. (for example, I believe in comprehensive education).

I most definitely am not a cybernat grin

Debates such as this (which to give it its due, has stayed generally civil) are tipping me in favour of voting yes, as I still haven't many positive arguments in favour of the Union, but more and more evidence of the differing values.

As I've mentioned before, I seem to be unusual happen to believe that we shouldn't do it purely because we might/will be financially better off. This is a long term decision. My personal opinion is that people should vote which way they thing is right

To use the marriage analogy, you don't get a divorce because you think you'll gain financially out of it - usually you're poorer, at least initially. You do it because, for a variety of reasons, you don't want to be married any more.

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 11:22:06

Thats probably a very good idea Aitch!

I'll probably be one of those many Scots who leave. I hope I can do so soon. Englands a nice country too, but I wouldn't really want to live in Norway, Portugal or Ireland!

LessMissAbs Fri 16-Nov-12 11:23:17

Sorry should have read Iceland not Portugal. Although I probably wouldn't live there either, except as a second home owner, as wages are too low.

prettybird Fri 16-Nov-12 11:34:29

Actually, I would like to live in Iceland for a while. I have a great deal of respect for the way they have dealt with their Kreppa. The Icelanders that I have worked with are mortified by what the small group of bankers did to them and they are working hard to develop alternate industries.

They have been through severe hardship with ultra high interest rates but are coming out the other side.

But I think we've established that I have a different set of beliefs/values to LesMissAbs. Not better, not worse. Just different.

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 17-Nov-12 08:55:31

Hi there

This one isn't really an AIBU, so we've moved it to 'In The News'.

prettybird Sat 17-Nov-12 09:03:29

You mean, it stayed civil and didn't degenerate into YABU angryangry protestations! wink

forgetmenots Sat 17-Nov-12 09:11:17

Haha prettybird - YANBU!!!! smile

Shenanagins Sat 17-Nov-12 09:18:12

Both myself and my partner voted for the snp at the last election but neither of us will vote for independence.

we both believe that Scotlandwill make it as an independent country but it will be a long hard process, much harder than what we are being told. i do also believe that many English underestimate just how much of a negative impact it will have on them.

what many people in England and the snp fail to realise is that many of us from across the political spectrum vote for them is because right now they really are the only viable party in Scotland and have done an ok job in running the country so far.

JennyPiccolo Sat 17-Nov-12 09:55:48

Would be interesting if Scottish folk could post where they are in the country and whether they think most people they know would vote yes or no.

I'm in Glasgow, most of my friends here would vote yes. My DP is from fife, most of his friends would vote no, though a couple are strongly in favour. He would vote yes, but has only recently come to that decision.

Most of the no camp have said they would be inclined to vote yes if there was a risk of nhs privatisation in Scotland.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sat 17-Nov-12 10:26:09

There was an interesting story in the Sunday Times the other week that suggested a "yes" to independence vote is more likely if voters think the Tories will get back into Westminster at the next election. Go, Dave! grin

prettybird Sat 17-Nov-12 12:57:58

I'm in Glasgow and most of the people I know who expressed a preference are going to vote "yes" - although it's not really something that has been discussed much in places where I don't already know other people's views (eg at the rugby club).

I have a couple of former colleagues from work who, judging by their fb posts, are going to be voting "Yes" and I know that my dad has friends in Fife who will be voting yes. Dh is (I think) still undecided.

But in general, it doesn't seem to be a topic that people are openly talking about. I almost get an impression that both "sides" don't want to hurt the feelings of the other, so therefore people's opinions are being kept personal and private.

Ds (who will only be 14 when the vote takes place so is disappointed that he won't be able to vote) has asked me to vote "No" so that he can still(!wink) be part of the British Cycling team and compete with them in 2020 Olympics! grin

PoppyAmex Sat 17-Nov-12 14:09:27

"But in general, it doesn't seem to be a topic that people are openly talking about. I almost get an impression that both "sides" don't want to hurt the feelings of the other, so therefore people's opinions are being kept personal and private."

prettybird I've noticed this too, which is interesting. It's especially noticeable between people who know they will disagree on the matter me and MIL grin

prettybird Sat 17-Nov-12 14:44:09

I have one friend who voted SNP last time, will probably vote "Yes" at the vote but whose parents were/are pillars of the Conservative Party (we're talking MBE for services to politics).

His mother never knew that he had voted SNP - but, if you believe in the after-life, she does now! wink (don't worry - we've joked about this with him)

JennyPiccolo Sat 17-Nov-12 14:59:47

Lots of people I've spoken to about it seem to express a strong viewpoint then state 'well actually I don't know much about it but ill probably vote X'

WELL BLARDY EDUCATE YOURSELF. It's not fucking X factor.

So mostly I've stopped talking to people about it cos I get wound up.

prettybird Sat 17-Nov-12 16:24:17

Interesting comments from one of Scotland's richest people.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 17-Nov-12 16:36:24

I'm in Glasgow and don't know anyone who will be voting no. The only people I know who are against it are my relatives in england/Wales, and their argument is against is the whole too wee/too poor/too stupid thing.

PoppyAmex Sat 17-Nov-12 16:50:45

prettybird interesting article and, more importantly, what a great point he makes!

JennyPiccolo Sat 17-Nov-12 17:31:41

Yeah. Really, things will not stay the same either way. We need to know what a no vote would mean as well.

mirry2 Sat 17-Nov-12 18:38:12

Jenny I wouldthink it would depend on the proportion of nos to yeses. If the vast majority voted no, I suspect nothing much would change as it would appear that most were happy with the status quo.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Sat 17-Nov-12 20:17:57

gosh yes what an interesting point that article makes, the Better Together people almost aren't mentioning what they can do for Scotland in teh future, they're just offering more of the same.

(that said, i just can't see how anyone can vote yes in the absence of an agreement with the rest of the UK as to what the financials will be).

prettybird Mon 19-Nov-12 15:46:02

Read a good review of this book "Arguing for Independence: Evidence, Risks and the Wicked Issues" by Stephen Maxwell in the Herald this weekend.

Haven't read it myself though.

PoppyAmex Mon 19-Nov-12 20:00:56

prettybird thanks for that; might investigate and see if I can get it for Kindle.

awaynboilyurheid Tue 20-Nov-12 18:50:58

A definite NO vote here for independance and no one I know (west coast of Scotland area) wants it either, personally I am terrified at the prospect, we have a say in how our country is run by having our own parliment so I just cant understand why we need to be seperate, much stronger joined together.

prettybird Tue 20-Nov-12 20:14:16

I am interested to know why you are terrified at the prospect. What is it you are scared of?

prettybird Wed 21-Nov-12 08:43:15

Another interesting article, this time from Patrick Harvie, (Green MSP), calling for reasoned debate.

Here

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 21-Nov-12 12:23:25

as an undecided head/heart voter, i'd love to think we could have that reasoned debate but remember the No To AV lies that we were told by Baroness Warsi et al.

JennyPiccolo Wed 21-Nov-12 12:30:32

There's a good article about the finances in the herald today by Ian bell. I don't know how to link it on my phone, but it's worth a google.

prettybird Wed 21-Nov-12 12:35:26

I know where you're coming from Aitch .

In the same way, I'm extremely distrustful of the "Trust us, vote No and we'll give you more undefined powers after the vote but don't expect us to give you any detail or indeed any firm commitment " message that is coming from the Westminster parties. hmm

If it's such a good idea, why can't they give us proposals now?

OneMoreChap Wed 21-Nov-12 14:00:56

See the Herald article in question

JennyPiccolo Wed 21-Nov-12 14:17:57

Ah, thanks.

Solopower1 Wed 21-Nov-12 15:02:13

I don't know if we're ever going to settle the 'Would we be better off financially?' debate, because there are too many unanswered and unaswerable questions, and no-one trusts or accepts anyone else's figures.

I've read the whole thread, but there are still so many things I would need to know before I voted yes or no to independence, and there are no solid answers, not one, none at all that I can trust!

The main problem is that whatever agreements the SNP signs now with Westminster, whatever promises they or any other party make, could change as soon as we have the first elections as an independent Scotland.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 21-Nov-12 15:07:33

That was the a good article. I too don't understand this obsession with oil. There is enough for a few years after independence, a safety buffer while a new nation finds her feet. But Scotland has many, many other assets it can bring into play.

Oil is not a critical factor in a yes or no.

JennyPiccolo Wed 21-Nov-12 15:10:33

Yes. I think you have to look at the fundamentals. We might have a bit less cash, we might have a bit more. We will probably be fine, in all eventuality.

But, if we're not happy, we can vote to change it. And right now my vote is worth 0.4 of a vote. If Scotland were independent I could have a whole one.

Solopower1 Wed 21-Nov-12 15:19:49

So what I am saying is that unless we get the information we need to make an informed choice, we will just have to vote on principle.

For me, that would go like this:

Would there be more democracy if Scotland were independent? Clearly, yes. (But there would still be Salmond and Trump and cronyism to contend with).

Would we get a fairer society? Yes, for a few years, I think we would, because whichever party was voted in would know that independence was won mainly because the people in Scotland were sickened by English Tory policies to rob the poor to pay the rich.

Would we become more nationalistic? Yes. And I hate that. To me, nationalism is so near to racism it's almost indistiguishable.

And have we got better things to spend our money on? Yes.

prettybird Wed 21-Nov-12 16:02:13

To me, your first two points are key issues Solopower1

I used to fear "nationalism" in the way that you do (which is why I made such a point of saying "je suis britannique et ecossaise" when I lived in France). Now I'm not so sure. I don't see it as racist to say I am proud to be Scottish. Doesn't mean that I hate the English - any more that saying I am proud to be a female makes me a man-hater.

Your final point is valid - but we did vote in the SNP with a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum in the latter part of their term. Unless you'd prefer that politicians didn't follow through on their election promises?! grin

Solopower1 Wed 21-Nov-12 16:38:00

No - I suppose I don't mind having a referendum. At least it's more democratic than not having one. And as you say, it's what people want.

I'd be happier, though, if the parties could be prevented from politicking or if we could have a nice simple ten-point list of pros and cons compiled by someone with no axe to grind, or even if we had an oracle we could consult. It's the burden of choice, having to make up my own mind about something.

Failing that, this thread and others on here at least get us discussing the issues. smile

Solopower1 Wed 21-Nov-12 16:45:06

The nationalism thing is about more than just saying 'I'm proud to be Scottish', though I don't really understand that, either tbh.

The sort of thing I'm thinking about is the prospective employer who doesn't like your English accent; the petty bullying that goes on in school or club football teams when they find out your mother's from England; the landlord who raises your rent as soon as he hears your dulcet tones on the phone; the benefits office person or receptionist or policeman who takes an instant dislike to you for the same reason. That sort of thing.

But that goes on now. No reason to think it would get worse or better in an independent Scotland.

Bitter, moi?

Solopower1 Wed 21-Nov-12 16:50:57

And, fwiw, in general, I don't think Scottish people are naturally particularly racist at all. In fact, they seem to be much more accepting of difference than many south of the border - though I suppose that's a rather foolish generalisation.

But just watch their hackles rise at a plummy English accent ...

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 21-Nov-12 16:59:15

oh but i have a 'naice' scottish accent and i get a lot of that stuff re price raising. same thing happens everywhere with tradesmen.

i don't get the nationalism = racism thing, not at all. i love being scottish in the world, but that doesn't make me feel negatively towards other races or countries. if anything, i think i'd love england all the more if we weren't coupled to it, i really do.

PoppyAmex Wed 21-Nov-12 17:05:41

Solo you raise interesting questions, but what you describe in your last post isn't nationalism or even Scottish people being patriotic, it's just people being idiots and, as you say, you can get that anywhere in any circumstances.

I think nationalism is a wholesome, positive thing but sadly the term has been often hijacked by radicals.

I'm Portuguese, married to a Scot and my daughter was born in Scotland - more importantly, after travelling and living abroad for many years we chose to live here.

I can comfortably say I have a nationalistic sense of pride in this country, its people and its culture.

PoppyAmex Wed 21-Nov-12 17:08:57

"i love being scottish in the world, but that doesn't make me feel negatively towards other races or countries"

That's exactly it, Aitch.

We all love our own families, but that doesn't mean we hate someone else's.

Solopower1 Wed 21-Nov-12 17:19:08

Mmm, but why would anyone feel proud about something they had no control over, and no say in whatsoever? My parents happened to be in London when I was born. I feel no affinity, no pride, nothing, for London. I've never lived there. To me that sort of patriotism is meaningless. It's pure chance where you are born.

On the other hand, I do love being human. smile

Solopower1 Wed 21-Nov-12 17:24:18

'We all love our own families, but that doesn't mean we hate someone else's.'

Agreed, Poppy, but we'd all put our own families first, wouldn't we, even if we didn't hate anyone else's. And sometimes that involves giving a job to a nephew, or choosing your cousin's child over someone else's to win the school prize for something. To me it's the same sort of thing. I'll give you a job because you speak/look like I do.

prettybird Wed 21-Nov-12 17:26:13

I too am "posh" Scottish - and after a number of years living in England apparently developed an English (or even Northern Irish confused?) accent (although I re-acquired my "posh Scottish" accent once I moved back to Glasgow) and have been subject to prejudice and assumptions about my politics and attitudes purely because of my accent. The people who have a problem are those that make those assumptions.

I was teased (would now be called bullying) at primary school because I wasn't "properly" Scottish. I wasn't born in Scotland and I have a foreign sounding, very distinctive surname. But I'd been in Scotland since I was three and as far as I was concerned I was Scottish. I learnt then not to be bothered by what people thought - what I felt was what was important.

We had left a country which was truly racist. Where people who didn't have the right colour of skin didn't get to vote. I was brought up to abhor racism. I don't see the nationalism exhibited in Scotland as in any way comparable. I see it more as a debate about democracy and values - things that are antithesis of racism.

PoppyAmex Wed 21-Nov-12 17:29:38

Can't believe I'm quoting Enoch Powell, but there you go...

He once said:
“I believe that, in order to live a full and satisfying life, a man needs to have a picture not only of the community to which he belongs and of his place in it, but also of the place and destiny of that community in the outside world. This is, as it were, the frame of reference within which his life is lived, which gives it… a meaning and a purpose beyond the narrow confines of place and date.

If you care to call this patriotism, so much the better.”

It's great to think of you as part of the "human race" but it's undeniable that your country and its people have helped shape you into the "human" you are today.

I also think it's not necessarily connected to where you born, as I mentioned in my previous post.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 21-Nov-12 17:30:25

oh i see what you mean re being born in a place, that's not particularly meaningful. but my heritage is scottish/irish, my culture catholic etc and i just like it, there's much to be proud of in my family. Big Keir Hardie-loving, union-forming folks, collective responsibility, that sort of thing. not exclusive to scotland, of course, but certainly part of our tradition.

PoppyAmex Wed 21-Nov-12 17:31:04

"I see it more as a debate about democracy and values - things that are antithesis of racism."

Very well said, pretty.

Live in large town
Scot married to a Scot
MA in Politics
Work in Public Sector

Will be a yes from me, DH, DD and all of our friends.

PoppyAmex Wed 21-Nov-12 17:36:29

Hi Katie - do you mind if I ask what are the principal reasons you're voting yes?

prettybird Wed 21-Nov-12 17:42:32

My ds loves that as part of his heritage he can claim a connection to the country where I was born. But it doesn't make him feel any less Scottish.

My parents, who made the choice to emigrate here, felt/feel Scottish because they wanted to be Scottish. That's "good" nationalism. Nationalism that borders on racism is when you're not allowed to be [a particular nationality] because you don't fulfill some arbitary "rules" - and are simultaneously hated or discriminated against because you are not [a particular nationality].

I choose to be Scottish. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy visiting the country of my birth and feeling an affinity with it when I do (despite its problems) - but I love coming home to Scotland smile

Solopower1 Wed 21-Nov-12 17:57:14

I don't really understand what you feel, Prettybird, although I'm glad you are happy where you live smile. I have lived overseas too, for several years, but never felt it was home. I've never wanted to change nationality.

For me, home is where my family is - I don't really care where that is, although it happens to be in Scotland at the moment.

And Aitch, I really feel I have nothing to be proud - or ashamed of - in my family.

prettybird Wed 21-Nov-12 18:22:02

..but I never known the "other" nationality from my perspective - so for me, living in Scotland wasn't living overseas, it was living at home.

I left there when I was three, my parents had no pride in the place, but they loved Scotland. As it happened, my mum happened to have been born in Scotland - by pure chance, as her father was working here during the war. It meant that it was easier for her to bring the family in on "her" passport as it were. (My dad could have claimed a British passport but it would have been long winded as his mother was half German, half English). I then became naturalised British as soon as soon as I could (or rather, my parents did it on my behalf).

Now, when we emigrated to New Zealand in my teens, that was living "overseas", even though it was planned to be a permanent move. It never felt like "home" to my parents, so we came back to Scotland. Politics played a part in that decision: quite apart from the parochialism that they felt (they made the mistake of not going to one of the big relatively speaking cities), the last straw was a general election being fought and won on the basis that the government would sent the All Blacks to play in South Africa with its blessing . They didn't miss their old country - they missed Scotland.

I suppose I'm also used to having family all around the world - and of many different nationalities. Amongst my grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins and 2nd cousins (blood related) I have: Danish, German, English, Australian and South African. I don't love them any less because I am Scottish. smile

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 21-Nov-12 19:27:58

The whole question of identity is a really interesting one.

I am technically English, born in England to English parents. I have no Scottish Ancestry at all. I moved to Scotland when I was wee, and was bullied mercilessly in primary school, and half way through secondary (my point of difference being that I was English)

Yet I now love Scotland, it's a great wee country. If I could revoke my British citizenship and get Scottish I would. I want nothing to do with the politics of the Westminster government, they are cruel, short term and text book Tory.

prettybird Wed 21-Nov-12 19:38:33

I seem to have most European countries in my ancestry (can trace my father's family/surname back to the 1500s) - with the exception of Scotland grin

My friends call me a "pedigree mongrel" smile

Ironically, dh, who claims to be of 100% Scottish ancestry, looks less Scottish than me (although if anything, I look Scandinavian). I swear that there is a shipwrecked Spaniard somewhere in dh's family tree! wink

Prettybird Lots of dark eyed, Spanish looking men on/from Lewis. There were Spanish sailors shipwrecked there long ago. Your DH may have Highland ancestry? smile

prettybird Wed 21-Nov-12 23:17:43

We think there is some (Northern?) Irish - but definitely the same principle as the "dark" Lewismen! wink

His and ds' skins are really olive - and dh's eyes are almost black.

prettybird Wed 21-Nov-12 23:19:22

...although that would mean he's not the 100% he claim he is grin

Prettybird Surely you understand the temptation faced in 1588 by DH's Great Granny (too late for me to work out just how Great!) when she chanced upon a bonny, if slightly waterlogged, Spanish seaman on the beach? Sounds like you're reaping the benefits today so can overlook the slightly less than 100% grin

prettybird Thu 22-Nov-12 07:53:01

If you could see my dh, then yes! winkgrin

All good then Prettybird grin

I'm a YES voter.

Head says: tackling the difficulties regarding poverty, social iniquity, urban vs rural issues, and other problems that I feel are particularly Scottish (Rangers/Celtic sectarianism) would be (hopefully) less challenging when dealing with a population of @5 million as opposed to a population of @60 million, when there are historical, logistical, societal, and political ideology differences between them.

Heart says: I hope, I wish, that Scotland could fulfill the potential of its people and again demonstrate that they are still great inventors, artists, writers, pioneers, explorers, and thinkers.

(and the idea that David Cameron is keeching his pants at the thought of going down in History as the man who failed to prevent the break-up of the U.K fills me with delight grin )

prettybird Thu 22-Nov-12 10:31:19

Don't you mean The Rangers? wink

That's part of why ds plays rugby and not football

PoppyAmex Thu 22-Nov-12 10:35:13

(and the idea that David Cameron is keeching his pants at the thought of going down in History as the man who failed to prevent the break-up of the U.K fills me with delight)

How didn't this occur to me? Yet another very valid reason to vote YES grin

prettybird Thu 22-Nov-12 15:12:14

grin

prettybird Fri 23-Nov-12 14:35:04

Just had a spurious thought: if the Scots vote for Independence and if they choose to retain the monarchy, would our Queen then be Queen Elizabeth I ? wink

prettybird When the Scots vote for Independence, and if they choose to retain the Monarchy it will be Liz the 1st, then Chuck the 3rd, and then King William (which will really cheer up The Rangers and make all their current woes seem insignificant)

Rugby here too...no time for that Blue/Green embarrassment.

prettybird Fri 23-Nov-12 17:25:00

I've just seen an article that was in the Telegraph last month saying that if Scotland achieved independence and decided it didn't want to enter into an agreement with England to continue to host Trident, there was nowhere suitable in England because "Devonport in Plymouth has too large a population in the surrounding area to safely store nuclear warheads"

Population of Plymouth 260,000
Population of Glasgow and environs 1.2 million

hmm

prettybird Just you and I left to thrash it out on this Thread I think! Can the last Tory left in Scotland please turn the lights off on their way out grin

Re: above comment - here, have my shock 'ed face....though why I should be shocked at anything the Tories do to Scotland I don't know (Poll Tax introduced here one year before England, Wales, and N.I. Was only south of the border 'Poll Tax' riots that got any attention 12 months later) I have driven through Glen Douglas a lot of times, and have always found it creepy - would give my eye teeth to have a look at the underground network that is below the seemingly innocuous above the few ground roads and bunkers.

Never mind the oft fabled 'North Sea oil revenues', rental charges for storing nuclear warheads (post-Independence) should see us right for a few years.