Another man supposedly cured by Atos dies.(76 Posts)
Atos benefit bullies killed my dad
Why is there not a punishment clause in their contract that forces them to pay out millions to those who are wrongly taken off benefit? (Rhetorical. We all know the reason)
What a shower of utter cunts.
They are a shower of cunts, indeed. They claimed retro-actively, that my husband was fit to work whilst I was away caring for our daughter with cancer, who died in July.
They truly are fuckers
They've declared my mum fit for work, her doctor and consultant insists she isn't.
The youngster said a previous stroke on Boxing Day last year had caused a blood clot on Brians brain.
He was left paralysed down his left side, unable to speak properly, blind in one eye and barely able to eat or dress.
How on earth was he classed as fit to work?
Sure what do doctors know?
They're public servants <spits>
He doesn't need to be able to eat or dress unless he's going to be a fashion model or a restaurant critic.
Blind in one eye means he still has one good eye to out to work.
This really isn't a story. Plenty of people die of heart attacks every day. Being disabled doesn't equal unable to work. I am sure there are jobs that this man could have done. I've no doubt that the 13 year old son is pissed off, but it's ridiculous for him to be blaming ATOS for his dads death.
That is shocking. Someone has a fucking stroke and it's seen as acceptable to put him through the stress of that assessment, and then piling it on by withdrawing his benefits? WTF? I would love someone, somewhere, to take this up and sue those bastards. How the fuck can the people who put that man through that live with themselves?
Cozy, did you read the story
Cozy9 - What job could someone do with a bleed on the brain, paralysed down his left hand side, blind in one eye and unable to feed or dress himself?
Holy fuck Expat! After what you went through with Ailidh they're doing that? They're even bigger cunts than I thought.
Cozy, which bit of "He was left paralysed down his left side, unable to speak properly, blind in one eye and barely able to eat or dress." did you not understand?
Cozy....you are IDS incognito....right?
I have friends (both nurses) who work for ATOS. What frustrates me (and them) most is that they have no actual say in th decision making process. They are purely employed to do the check and then everything is passed on to a non medical decision maker who decides where the client goes. I asked my friend how much say she got in it all....she said sometime they can write enough to swing it the clients way but that the decision makers don't always listen.
'Being disabled doesn't equal unable to work. I am sure there are jobs that this man could have done. I've no doubt that the 13 year old son is pissed off, but it's ridiculous for him to be blaming ATOS for his dads death.'
In some cases, it does.
Surely you can't give people benefits without them being assessed in the first place?
Don't forget the role of the DWP decision-makers, and, ultimately, the Government. Though I have no time for companies cashing in on these vile policies, remember where they originate. And don't get me started on the 'I'm sure there are jobs he could have done' brigade. These policies get pushed through because people like that believe the disablist propaganda that infects our country.
Cozy, of course people are assessed. That doesn't mean they are always assessed correctly. The new system is full of traps for the innocent but genuine claimant. It's a massively stressful process.
Cozy - what jobs do you think this man would have been able to do, being blind in one eye and paralysed down one side of his body? If he cannot do simple tasks like feeding or dressing himself, how many jobs is he going to be able to do? And how likely is it that an employer will take him on, given his poor state of health?
I have a family friend going for one of these assesments next week, she is only 18 and was on JSA but needed major surgery which she had in september, she was advised by the job centre to stop claiming JSA hand in doctors notes and claim some sort of sickness benefit instead (I am not sure what) until she was well to go back on JSA and start attending the fortnightly meetings, she was 4 weeks post surgery when she got a letter telling her to attend an ATOS meeting, she is 18 ill and very vunerable, the hospital have botched her operation so she will def need another one maybe more, she is severly annemic and her wound is infected, she still has to go to the meeting next week and it's making her very anxious.
I must agree with Jake here. Totally preparing for flaming here, but...
My father works for Atos. Not in that department, but obviously has a feel for what goes on. I really think from what he says (that may obviously be biased) that the government are letting Atos take the shit for this. Atos follow guidelines given to them by government. The government have decided who should and should not work, not Atos.
It seems a good arrangement for the government - they know Atos will take the shit for them - they will not argue with all this negative publicity because it doesn't affect them - their customer is the government, rather than the public iyswim.
This is the problem with privatisation - the public are thrown to the mercy of a company whose first concern is not their wellbeing.
I probably haven't put this very well, but it seems to be all wrong... this is the governments fault!
ATOS is making a huge profit from doing their dirty work, though.
Thats true, and I wouldn't like to work for them myself, but i feel private companies should not be held morally responsible for things the government are meant to look after.
As a private company their primary concern is profit, and doing what their customer (the government) wants.
To call them a shower of cunts is unfair to cunts.
My apologies hackmum. How about a bunch of completely heartless cuntworms?
And what about this one?
I honestly believe Pootles has it right - this government actively wants to hound ill people to death because they cost too much.
Bollocks are ATOS free from blame.
Govt have to take some of the blame for their stupid policies, but ATOS are definitely not doing their best!
You barely have to look at all to find stories of utter stupidity/wilful misrepresentation.
Expat, so sorry to hear about your daughter.
Pootles is right, though. That is what is behind the government's desire to privatise state services - they don't want the responsibility when things go wrong. They call it shrinking the State and giving us all more responsibility for our own actions, but it's directly related to them trying to make sure we vote for them, because they can say it's not their fault when the private companies, who are only doing what the government wants them to do, cut corners or make mistakes.
But I'm sure ATOS should also bear some of the blame. Some of their assessors and decisions sound inhuman.
NicholasTeakozy: after much reflection, I'd rather be a cuntworm than a member of the Atos medical assessment panel.
The gov wants to kill off the sick and disabled.
Someone I know has recently been put in the WRAG [work related activity group] this person is not fit for work and never will be, they recieve higher rate care and mobility of DLA, use a wheelchair and are chronically ill.
If their appeal is unsuccessful they will lose their ESA, signing on for JSA is not an option as they can't seek work they cannot do!
The stress of all of this is immense.
Its so wrong.
But its ok for some eh IDS?
yes the blame for all this can be laid at the governments feet, they are actually killing disabled people
i'm in the scary position of coming off of incapacity and into work in a week or so. i have an appointment on monday with an advisor at the job centre which apparently won't take longer than 20mins because it's only about handing me forms to apply for back to work credit etc rather than the advice and support service it is sort of flagged as.
what is really scary is the gamble i am taking on my health. if it craps out on me and i end up incapacitated again god knows what will happen to me with the system as it now is. i count myself extremely lucky that i never had to deal with atos - pure luck that my file must have been towards the bottom of whatever pile it is they're working through.
and expat i too am extremely sorry about your daughter. how awful to have to deal with all of this on top of that
Have posted this before. DD summoned to ATOS assessment 25 miles away at 09.15 first catch 4 buses.
DD has Down syndrome, complex heart defect with pacemaker, poorly controlled asthma (TBH due partly to her learning disabilities).
Despite letters from cardiologist, GP, SW and support worker stating she was not capable of work she was put in the WRAG category. I saw her medical report it stated of average height she is 4' 2"!! We won the appeal
Dreading DS's assessment Downs epilepsy perhaps he could drive a bus providing he could change his pants after he has pissed himself.
Hope you are coping Expat it is so hard.
Threesocks what job would your DD like?
Glad to hear you won on appeal 2old2.
For those who were wondering, it is possible to work after a stroke, providing your mental faculties have remained intact. My bil had a stroke about 3 years ago, was partially paralysed, has slurred speech and has difficulty walking. He was desperately keen to get back to work and indeed did go back after a few months. About 18 months later he had a life threatening heart problem (an aortic dissection) and spent 8 hours in surgery and 3 weeks in hospital. He went back to
work a couple of months later. Everyone's different. That's why these assessments are needed.
The assessments don;'t work though, thats the problem.
yes everyone is different BUT the important reality being ignored is whether the will to employ these people exists.
i mean YES a person with a mood disorder who can have several months in a row absolutely fine given peaceful, stressful conditions and no triggers can in theory work in that time but the reality may be that for the last decade those few months are the most they've ever had in a row before a major episode that rendered them incapacitated and was ONLY achieved when they were able to totally control their daily interactions/environment etc. you can assess them and say yes they're capable of working BUT are they capable of holding a job over time given the reality of work and it's conditions?
or a person in a wheelchair paralysed down one side given the above example - maybe they're keen willing and able to do a job but does the job exist that they can do? a place with the right facilities and access, with an interviewing panel that will take that person etc etc?
it's all very well saying look this downs syndrome young woman can do x, y and z so technically she's capable of working but does the employer who can take on and safeguard her actually exist?
in the interests of honesty i have bipolar (mildly, no psychotic history, no crazy classic how it's portrayed stuff) and cfs that developed out of glandular fever as a teen and has come and gone since. i am intelligent, i am very well educated and i'm incredibly capable when i am well i've just landed a great job and i AM capable of it BUT.... i don't know for sure what a couple of months down the road will bring and realistically employers cannot deal with someone who is regularly incapacitated for weeks at a time. i hope that won't happen. i hope i'm a long way on from where i was last time i was in a professional vocation and that i've chosen a role and hours that i can cope with and have my life in a place that can work with that etc etc. but i cannot guarantee it - i wish i could believe me because i'd love to be free of this shite but through no fault of my own i'm stuck with it and my confidence is somewhat crushed from facing constructive dismissal (negotiated to hand in notice in return for x months pay because i couldn't face tribunal and months of hell when i was ill) last time i was in formal employment.
what the govt and atos and like agencies have to recognise is that disability and chronic ill health is not like an on/off switch - it has complex ongoing implications that tend to be incompatible with the world of employment. it's like the epileptic sufferers who are being told well you only have three fits a week you can work. well, yes in theory but name me the employer who can cope with someone having 3 fits a week and needing the care that comes with them and to go home and sleep for 12hrs afterwards etc. they are pretending things are far simpler than they are.
Good post, SwallowedAfly.
Maybe ATOS should be required to find the employer who will give a job to the person they have just pronounced as being fit for work.
and please bear in mind that to say 'i have bipolar' on an anonymous forum is HARD enough so how the hell would one tell an employer and the people you have to work with everyday?
every time i say or type that i have a mental health condition i'm aware of the prejudice i'm stirring and of how i'm enabling the future discrediting of anything i may say or do - does that make sense?
you cannot in an interview say oh by the way i have the same dx as jean off eastenders who is portrayed to be x, y and z - still fancy giving me the job? so then you are faced with whether to be honest on forms, contracts etc. if you choose honesty you likely won't get the job (whatever discrimination laws say because let's face it i'm not taking them to court nor can i prove i was the 'perfect person' for the job and they purely discounted me on my health), if you choose dishonesty you face the fact that if you get ill and the doctor signs you off naming your condition your employment rights are basically undone because you lied on your application.
there are a hell of a lot of people who are technically 'fit for work' but are entirely unfit for the modern workplace, rules, expectations etc.
i can't wait to see the poor people suffering from three epileptic fits a week being sent to tesco for workfare because they can't get a job. how will tesco cope with workers fitting in the aisles?
xposted - thank you solo. yes that would be good - if they had to say YES you are fit for work and hear are ten jobs currently being advertised that you would have a realistic chance of getting with your conditions.
you know someone who can blink once for yes and two for no is perfectly capable of working in an ideal world. in the real world there is no job that could accommodate to him.
One part of me thinks that it is good for the rest of us to have people like you as our colleagues, not least because it would educate us, and open our minds to the sort of problems you have and the contributions you can make.
The other part of me thinks it is monstrously unfair on you to have to be in the position of educating other people and exposing yourself to their ignorance. Plus the stress of it all could have serious consequences for your future health.
But the main thing is tha, as you say, it's much more difficult for you to get a job in the first place.
With ATOS, it should be a collaborative approach between the person who is being assessed and the assessors. It should be 'What sort of things do you think you can do?' 'What problems would you face if you were to go back to work, and how could we help you with them?' and 'How can we help you to find a job, if you feel you can do one?' rather than 'Whatever you say, we have our targets, and although we know you're unfit for work, we're going to make sure we get a pat on the head from our bosses.'
2old2beamum I hope they do tell her to get a job, would love the ensuing DM article.
"down syndrome young woman"
I assume you mean a "young woman with downs syndrome"
yeah because that was the most important part of my post wasn't it three? a nitpick at the way i phrased a sentence despite the fact of the sentiment being entirely clear.
yes i meant a woman with downs syndrome. and i guess i should have referred to myself as a woman with bipolar disorder and my son as being a boy with brown hair for fear his brown hair may have pigeon holed him if i'd called him a brown haired boy.
I would like to know where these so called jobs are for people with complex conditions, terminal illness & disabilities!
The goverment are a disgusting bunch of immoral cunts who will be happy when they have killed everyone on benefits off so they can save money
my dh was told by the lady at JS to try a bar job.
yeah cos someone with Epilepsy should really work behind a bar!!
Swallowedafly I am afraid threesocksmorgan is right regardless of the disability they are people first. I went loopy last week one someone described her sister as epileptic petty maybe but wrong
I think that was entirely forgivable given the content of Swalloweds entire post TBF
The previous government had, I thought, tried to reform the system to make it easier for people who were disabled to get fair access to the workplace by offering them the support they needed, and that it was an assumption that disability in itself should not be an insurmountable hurdle to taking a full role in the world of work. It has been twisted round by the current lot to make it clear that the disabled are expected to work full stop as they don't deserve something for nothing and are a bunch of scroungers.
I have a friend who was told he was fit to work having been almost paralysed after surgery to halt the spread of malignant melanoma - sadly unsuccessful and he has been told he has 6 weeks left if he's lucky. This was because he still had the capacity to do simple tasks in the interview on that day. They look only at capacity and not the diagnosis.
When I filled in a demo ATOS form on line as if I was my disabled son on a good day (he is currently only 13 - I was curious and testing out the system) he didn't score many points and appeared to be 100% fit for work. However, he regularly spends periods of 2-3 weeks, several a year, in hospital with a chronic and life shortening condition that requires hours of daily treatment even when he is well.
Problem for him is that when he grows up he will be very keen to work and have a proper life (during his good spells) but I cannot see how this would be possible under the current system! People with fluctuating conditions appear to be particularly hard hit. When he fills in the form, does he say how he is when he is ill (oxygen, IV meds for 2-3 weeks, plus loads of other treatment) or tell them what he can do when he is really well? He is usually fairly fit after a spell in hospital followed by a couple of weeks of recovery at home (but still on hours of home treatment to keep that way) but it doesn't last long. When he is well, he will be able to run up the stairs and do a somersault into the ATOS office.
The drive to make sick and disabled people work does not seem to come with the support to make it feasible (such as very detailed and targeted 'access to work' help that used to be possible) and that level of support is very expensive and could potentially cost more than keeping someone home 'on the sick'.
By the way, you have a right to have an official recording of the ATOS interview made, although most people don't know this and there is a shortage of equipment (not allowed to use your own). Can also request a home visit - if you can get up the stairs to the interview you are fit for work lol.
Anyway, agree with Pootles and others, the current government have put the 'N' in cuts.
* name me the employer who can cope with someone having 3 fits a week*
Even the ones that are willing to try (and they are few and far between) might not cope when faced with the reality. My sister started a new job, had told them at interview she had epilepsy but they said it was fine. The first time she had a seizure they decided they'd have to let her go, making out it was 'for her own safety'.
Re: people being able to work after strokes I agree it totally depends on the person but at the other end of the scale from blind, paralysed people being told they should work we have my friend. He suffered a stroke a few years ago (only in his early forties so a shocker) and was very poorly for a while but fortunately regained most of his mobility/speech etc. In a way it did him a favour as they also discovered he had quite a serious heart defect so all in all a worrying time. Eventually he went back to work, a physically demanding job. After eighteen months his bosses suddenly decided he was unfit for work. He works for the government . I think they need to make up their minds, at the moment they seem to be causing stress to people who are not capable of work by telling them they are, and stress to people who have proved they are capable of work by telling them they aren't!
Amber it is never forgivable.
we should always see the person first.
there is no excuse.
My ATOS interview is this week
Would love to work but I can't even commit to coffee with a friend or picking up my DD from school as I can't predict if i'm going to be well enough
But on a good day I can get dressed, feed myself and go to the loo on my own
Who would employ me?
ESA is the benefit I paid towards when I was employed
Swallowed wasn't even saying that as her saying it, she was saying it as a hypothetical gov employee stating a 'downs woman' being fit for work.
I didn't read it as being her turn of phrase at all.
Completely agree with swallowed. The most ridiculous thing about all of this is that many people with disabilities are desperate to work but employers aren't interested. The government should deal with the employers first before haranguing people with disabilities.
but that won't save money will it?
they don't care. they have no understanding of what it is like to be disabled or care for a disabled person.
i went to an appointment at the jobcentre today to find out what to do about closing my incapacity benefit claim and back to work credits etc.
awful place! you feel like a criminal. they no longer have toilets, 'because the druggies were always in there' and you are not allowed to take drinks in. i found this out in quick succession after asking where the bathroom was being told the above and then being told i wasn't allowed to bring in the coffee i had. so they could keep you waiting there for ages without being able to have a drink or go to the loo. handy if you are incontinent i'm sure.
anyway dumped down one end of the building in a holding pen (waiting room would be an overstatement) i found myself surrounded by people with clear disabilities and health problems. the lady i sat beside was Deaf and awaiting her translator who finally came. a young woman with down's syndrome was there with her mother and sister. a person who appeared to have severe mental health problems. etc.
it really hit home what this atos stuff must be like. the woman who was with her daughter with down's also had a small child in a pushchair with her and it looked like her daughter probably needed a lot of care from her. the deaf lady needed a translator for her appointment and until that point had been sat in 'silence' with no one to communicate with. these are the people being dragged into assessments i imagined the young lady with down's being made to perform for assessors and be told seeing as she could pick up a pound coin and walk unaided she was fine for work and the Deaf lady having to relay through her translator her obstacles to the working world - not even being able to directly argue her case because of the obvious barrier right there.
just awful. i felt awful enough about it all anyway but somehow being sat there seeing how difficult it was for a mother to cope with toddler and her disabled daughter in the environment of the job centre and how isolated the deaf lady was in that world without her translator... it just really brought it home how horrific what they are doing to people is.
anyway for my part i'm going back to work after years of not. the woman i spoke to seemed nervous for me. she recommended i didn't send stuff off or close my claim until i'd done a few days at work, "just in case". i said i didn't think that was realistic because even if after a few days i knew i couldn't cope what was the alternative? wait to be called up by atos?
sorry long perhaps irrelevant post but thought of this thread whilst i was sat there.
We were at a tribunal today (luckily not DWP for us) and there was a man in a wheelchair who'd been denied benefits because ATOS had written that he played with his dogs. He was telling us he had no pets at all, let alone dogs!
Have you seen the new People's review of the WCA - makes for very harrowing reading.
It's terrifying, and even more so that they are doing the same to all DLA claimants next year.
I don't know who would employ me either. I am educated and articulate but have a progressive lung disease with frequent IV treatment and long daily treatment. I have weeks of not even being able to get out of the house, let alone to a job centre. It's a nightmare, and my case is not as bad as so many others being denied ESA/DLA.
This country is going downhill quickly. Someone on that document made a remark about the Third Reich. Makes you think.
So sorry, saf, to hear of your experiences, and everyone else on this thread
swallowed can I give you a hug? It sounds horrible.
I've got just under 48 hours until I have to turn up to face ATOS
sorry - didn't mean to make people feel sorry for me. i'm one of the lucky ones really when you look at what's being done. the daft thing is i use toilets to cope with anxiety. for various reasons a stuffy waiting area, left there, not knowing what's going on, no privacy and feeling trapped is the perfect recipe for panic attacks for me. toilets are my sanctuary where i can go, be alone, get myself together and calm down. being told no loos really narked me - i was rude to the person who told me then on my way back in (from drinking my coffee and doing my calm down routine outside round the corner) i went up and apologised to him. he said no, he hates having to tell people this stuff and wishes it was nicer there.
there was just something hideous about us 'faulty' folk all be gathered at one end waiting to be seen. my stuff is invisible, others is highly visible but we all have our obstacles and barriers. lined up that (with no loo to escape to) made me imagine, viscerally, what it would be like in that atos waiting room.
hopeforever i wish all the luck in the world. i hope you get somebody decent who will do their best. i chatted to my advisor and it seems the job centre staff are really sympathetic about how awful all of this is now and openly admit that getting esa is a nightmare now. she told me that if even after two days at work i was signed off as incapable due to ill health (god forbid) i would be put on lowest rate of what you can get and would be assessed within 8wks by atos.
i remember when i had to be signed off of work when my health crashed years ago. i hadn't even gotten to see a consultant and get a proper diagnosis by 8wks let alone anything else.
anyway i am waffling.
madhairy - my dla was up for renewal at the beginning of the year. every time i looked at the forms i felt sick. all of this clear rhetoric about what they think of people like me and all the horrible press was too much. those forms are humiliating due to the amount of highly personal information i had to share - in this climate that just felt too much to go through. not sure that makes sense. so that was some money they saved anyway! wonder how many others also didn't claim despite no change in health circumstances because it felt pointless or too degrading.
I know SaF The forms are humiliating and really get you down as you see the reality of what you live through. I know loads of people who are really seriously ill and don't claim because of the stress. It's sickening
I claimed ESA, went for an ATOS medical (a joke) and then was told I couldn't receive it as my NI payments weren't enough, it was only then I found out HRP were only Class 3 contributions so not enough to get ESA/JSA. Yet they still put me through the medical was so stressed and I was so ill at the time. I've given up on ESA now but am desperately worried about losing my DLA.
hope will be thinking and praying for you. Let me know how it goes. Take care.
HopeForever, take a friend with you and get said friend to take notes in the form of minutes. Also, insist your assessment is recorded (Atos are legally required to supply equipment). Then if your claim is denied there is massive evidence for your appeal. It will still be stressful but you will win. We must not let these fuckers beat us.
good advise there from nicholast - at least they can't flagrantly make things up if it's recorded and also the very act of asking and doing it shows them they need to be careful with you iyswim? it makes them realise you're not someone who'll lightly accept being mistreated or having your claim mishandled.
thinking of you today hopeforever! hope you're ok.
Sadly I think it's only going to get worse, with the replacement of DLA with PIPs, and everyone having to re-assessed, even if you have a 'lifetime' award. It seems to me like starting out with the objective of reducing the number of people claiming DLA by 500 000 (because there are half a million suitable jobs out there, don't cha know?!) means that the assessments are going to be negatively weighted anyway. There's a lot of talk about the assessments being focussed on both good and bad days, and looking at how whatever condition you may have affects you on a day to day basis, but I don't see how they will accomplish this in a one off interview? Not to mention that there is no guarantee about where these interviews will take place, what facilities will be available etc etc. It's just terrifying, and makes me thankful every single day that I am in good health and do not have to be put through this ordeal.
dla is meant to be for people who are working, not just non workers, anyway. i would have been entitled to carry on claiming it after i started work and it would have covered my extra expenses due to my disability and would have offset the fact that as a disabled person it is harder to get well paid job and you often have to work that you are overqualified for (and underpaid) and that you may only be able to work part time through no fault of your own etc.
i couldn't face filling out my renewal forms though so i was a very easy one to get rid of.
I understand DLA is not an out of work benefit, I was trying to make the point that saying that they want to reduce the numbers by 500 000 is ridiculous. Sorry if I didn't word that correctly. Think what I was trying to say RE jobs is that there aren't exactly 500 000 positions out there that would be suitable for people who at the minute get financial support with barriers to work, that people could do without the support of DLA. Does that make sense? Am fully aware what DLA is used for, and as far as I can work out PIP is pretty much the same thing under a different name and is essentially just an excuse to put disabled people under the cuts spotlight. Again. It's just shit all round.
PiP is much narrower in criteria sense too. It is awful
Hope how did you get on?
must admit my, perhaps paranoid, assumption about PiP is that a) it's a chance to force re-assessments of people and overturn decisions made previously and b) it will be assessed and done in such a way as to make even harder for people with mental illnesses and other 'invisible' disabilities to qualify.
Thank you all
DH was due to go with me but then my dad couldn't have the kids and then DS got sick, so I went alone
Had difficulty parking as a lorry was across most the spaces and the one space left was too narrow and so I had to reverse in v close to one car in order to get out ther side. Was shaking whe I went in then my back went into spasm.
Will have 2 week wait for results. Lady was lovely, but who knows what I have scored.
Oh Hope sounds stressful for you, glad the assessor was nice though.
SaF I don't think that's a paranoid assumption at all, it's just what is happening I dread to think how many people will lose their dla. Caring for the most vulnerable? Yeah right
Sue Marsh has a fabulous blog post (nobody does righteous fury like Sue) which ends with the following lines:-
Josef Goebbels: "If you're going to lie, lie big and stick to it."
David Cameron: "We will always protect the most vulnerable."
To all of you going through the WCA, you have my best wishes. Remember, get your assessment recorded. Atos are legally required to provide equipment. Request a copy. Take your own equipment if you have to. Take notes. Take someone to act as a witness.
WE CAN BEAT THESE CUNTS
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