I BELIEVE YOU- for Steven Messham and the other brave people trying to get the truth out there.

(136 Posts)
mignonette Sat 03-Nov-12 21:49:24

https://twitter.com/smessham

I believe the men and women who now feel able to tell us about the abuse they suffered at the hands of powerful and apparently protected people

Time for an 'I believe you' thread again.....

bananaistheanswer Sat 03-Nov-12 22:03:38

I concur. I believe you.

Darkesteyes Sat 03-Nov-12 22:14:34

I agree. I believe you.

lubeybooby Sat 03-Nov-12 22:19:26

I believe them

ommmward Sat 03-Nov-12 22:19:34

I believe you.

Einsty Sat 03-Nov-12 22:42:08

I believe you. And I salute your courage and dignity and astonishing resilience

earwig1 Sun 04-Nov-12 11:00:24

You are a very brave man, Steven, XX

Sunnywithachanceofshowers Sun 04-Nov-12 11:02:32

I believe you too xxx

Mumfun Sun 04-Nov-12 18:33:29

I believe you too. And hope that there will be a new full enquiry to address yours and others complaints!

FrothyOM Sun 04-Nov-12 18:36:30

I believe them.

ashesgirl Sun 04-Nov-12 18:36:55

I believe you. I was almost in tears watching your interview and think you are extremely brave to stand up and raise this. Sincerely hoping a new inquiry is called that will expose the wrongdoing.

FrothyOM Sun 04-Nov-12 18:37:21

you could tweet a link to this thread to him

JuliaScurr Sun 04-Nov-12 18:40:38

right here with you all

AnyaKnowIt Sun 04-Nov-12 18:42:09

I believe them x

Good idea to tweet him

troubador Sun 04-Nov-12 18:42:26

I believe you.

When I followed him on Twitter yesterday Steven had about 140 followers and he's now got 545. Keep following!

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 04-Nov-12 18:43:23

I believe you.

PuzzleRocks Sun 04-Nov-12 18:46:30

I believe you. And I applaud you for your strength and courage.

SufferingLampreys Sun 04-Nov-12 18:48:52

I believe you

tinierclanger Sun 04-Nov-12 18:50:20

I believe you, and all the others.

donnie Sun 04-Nov-12 18:51:54

Yes indeed; we in the donnie household believe you and applaud your courage and strength.

GetOrfAKAMrsUsainBolt Sun 04-Nov-12 18:52:47

I believe you Steven.

LineRunner Sun 04-Nov-12 18:53:19

Brave man.

mignonette Sun 04-Nov-12 19:18:24

I don't tweet but if another MNer could tweet this link to him I'd be very pleased for him to see it....Thank you..

RandallPinkFloyd Sun 04-Nov-12 19:35:07

I believe you.

PuzzleRocks Sun 04-Nov-12 20:02:29

bump

SmellsLikeTeenStrop Sun 04-Nov-12 20:04:59

I believe you

andiem Sun 04-Nov-12 20:06:47

I believe you, all of you

IWouldLoveToStandAsAnIndie Sun 04-Nov-12 20:10:46

I believe you. I believe all of you. Please if you can, speak out. There are lots of us out here who would like to support you.

Loveweekends10 Sun 04-Nov-12 20:14:41

I believe you.

troubador Sun 04-Nov-12 21:03:35

bump

ashesgirl Sun 04-Nov-12 22:08:59

bump

LineRunner Sun 04-Nov-12 23:26:11

Did someone tweet / link yet? I'm not on twitter myself.

Berts Mon 05-Nov-12 08:58:10

I believe you x

mignonette Mon 05-Nov-12 09:47:48

Can somebody tweet this link to Mr Messham?

margerybruce Mon 05-Nov-12 10:07:22

Greeting Cards for Justice

Please join in with this ........

co-ordinated campaign to send a card to highlight abuse of children and demand action

margerybruce Mon 05-Nov-12 10:10:24

M Bruce ‏@MBruce9
.@smessham http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/1603613-I-BELIEVE-YOU-for-Steven-Messham-and-the-other-brave-people-trying-to-get-the-truth-out-there?msgid=35197133#35197133 …
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2:09 AM - 5 Nov 12 · Details
Tweet textImage will appear as a link

mignonette Mon 05-Nov-12 10:13:01

Thank you MargeryBruce

Lottapianos Mon 05-Nov-12 10:15:14

I believe you. I cant' imagine the horror of what you have been through. You deserve to have your story heard and to have these people brought to justice.

PoppyAmex Mon 05-Nov-12 10:23:09

His interview really moved me; he was very composed and incredibly brave.

I believe you, Steven.

MrsjREwing Tue 06-Nov-12 09:03:02

I believe you.

shockers Tue 06-Nov-12 09:15:34

I believe you.

ashesgirl Tue 06-Nov-12 09:45:54

Well done marjorie

pinkbraces Tue 06-Nov-12 09:53:59

I believe you.

Nooneelseisallowedafergus Tue 06-Nov-12 13:54:18

Just listened to radio2 interview. Feel so sad. How can there be so many evil people living amongst us all. How could anyone do this to vulnerable children. There are no words, but it makes me feel ashamed to be the same species as them. They cannot be human. I hope they are all brought to justice.

DontPutBeerInHisEar Tue 06-Nov-12 13:59:57

I believe you and others too.

NigellasGuest Tue 06-Nov-12 14:16:14

I believe you

DontPutBeerInHisEar Tue 06-Nov-12 15:36:19

bump

ssd Tue 06-Nov-12 16:52:27

totally and utterly believe you all x

DontPutBeerInHisEar Tue 06-Nov-12 16:58:40

I don't think it would harm to put this here too:

There's a good suggestion of sending an email to our MPs on a comment under Tom Watson's letter to Dave.

Amending and sending the email directly to your mp NOW will ram the message home that a full immediate investigation is necessary NOW.

findyourmp.parliament.uk/

I believe Stephen and I've sent the email to my MP.

Dear Mr Streeter,

It's not often I'm minded to write to my MP but the issue of child abuse raised in parliament recently by Tom Watson is one I feel very strongly about. I see the Prime Minister yesterday announced some initiatives, but I am not convinced these are adequate. I've been talking to friends and colleagues and gauging the public mood - to borrow a much-used phrase, 'incandescent with rage' would just about capture it.

This issue is fizzing right now but the volcano has not yet erupted.
When it does, then look-out any government that has not done absolutely everything within its power to uncover and prosecute the perpetrators of these vile crimes. I don't want to rake over the detailed issues, Tom Watson has done that very well in his letter to the Prime Minister yesterday. If you are not already aware of its content you will find it here;

www.tom-watson.co.uk/

The purpose of this email is to tell you that I support 100% Tom Watson's calls for a much more rigorous and searching enquiry. I believe many of your constituents will feel the same way. Can I urge you to relay to the Prime Minister just how strongly many people are feeling about this. A more robust approach by the government is needed IMMEDIATELY. We are dealing with clever, resourceful and possibly powerful criminals here. Even as I write they will be actively working to cover their tracks.

Yours sincerely,

DontPutBeerInHisEar Tue 06-Nov-12 17:17:25

Steven with a v. Sorry

bringupthebabies Tue 06-Nov-12 20:57:59

I believe you and all the others.

Keep going, the truth must come to light eventually and then justice will be done for you and all the others.

mcmooncup Tue 06-Nov-12 22:02:06

I believe you Steven and support you in every way in telling your story.

Sargesaweyes Tue 06-Nov-12 22:05:39

I believe you. Crossing my fingers for the justice

mignonette Wed 07-Nov-12 08:39:47

Have emailed my MP and used your template Don'tPut. Thanks.

Darkesteyes Wed 07-Nov-12 16:07:01

Im not normally a fan of celebrity trash mags but ive bought this weeks Grazia. They have interviewed an abuse survivor who was abused by an immediate family member.
When she finally found the courage to tell her parents her father slapped her across the face telling her she was bringing shame on the family by talking about it. She thought her mum would support her but her mother agreed with her father.
My parents have the same kind of attitudes and i got a real knot in the stomach while reading it.
"Asha" if you read this i am sorry for what youve been through and I BELIEVE YOU.

Lottapianos Wed 07-Nov-12 16:25:25

Darkesteyes, I had a friend who was abused by her uncle as a child. When she told her parents, her dad refused to believe her and didn't believe her for years. How awful sad I'm not sure how they worked it out but she ended up having a close and happy relationship with her dad. I'm not sure I could ever forgive something like that though.

Quenelle Wed 07-Nov-12 16:40:46

I believe you Steven and I'm grateful to you for speaking out so bravely.

FatTuesday Sat 10-Nov-12 10:57:01

I believe you Steven. Have faith that the more people that know your story, the harder it is going to be for them to sweep it under the carpet again.

MrsjREwing Sat 10-Nov-12 14:15:37

Steve, I want to let you know I still believe you. I am so sad that you were told the wrong name for your abuser.

mignonette Sat 10-Nov-12 14:25:58

I still believe you and am deeply, deeply suspicious about what is being reported. Attempts to cover up and discredit? I think so. Why are other claims of abuse over many many years regarding a certain Tory not being pursued for libel????

noddyholder Sat 10-Nov-12 14:28:57

I cannot believe that in all the years SM has been trying to get himself heard there has never been a photo to clarify that they are all talking about the same and correct person. It is highly suspicious that both SM and the other victim have said they were mistaken

Sunnywithachanceofshowers Sat 10-Nov-12 15:36:42

I believe you Steven. Hope you're okay.

Xenia Sat 10-Nov-12 15:48:43

You would have thought SM who had apparently thought it was Lord M for all these years might have gone on line and looked at a photograph of the man to check? It's all very strange, isn't it?

The problem is that the retraction by SM has caused massive damage to his own position. The media are now saying SM's evidence is tainted and wrong and he is an unreliable witness.

What I can't find out is what exactly did SM say on this - did he tell Panorama yes it was Lord M or did he say I was a bit too young to know but it seemed to be some quite senior posh people but I've no idea who they were?

noddyholder Sat 10-Nov-12 15:52:23

I think you could find that out online if you have time to kill grin I think he must have named him.Surely the BBC would have wanted water tight information. Hasn't SM been making statements to teh police for years?

goralka Sat 10-Nov-12 16:00:17

1.he was shown a photo by the police
2.he said that person had abused him
3.they told him a name
4.now he is apologising
Is that right?
the whole thing stinks from top to bottom, but mostly at the top
I believe all the victims of this, sadly many of them have died or been suicided.

hackmum Sat 10-Nov-12 16:04:02

Xenia - I agree with you. It's all very odd. The late Richard Webster wrote a book (and articles) several years ago in which he cast doubt on the testimony of SM, among others. SM seems to me to be a very troubled man and I don't want to imply for one moment that he is making this up. But I think Newsnight should have been more careful about relying on the testimony of a single individual. As you say, it seems strange that he could be so certain about it being Lord McAlpine if he hadn't looked at a photograph.

goralka Sat 10-Nov-12 16:05:36

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mignonette Sat 10-Nov-12 16:06:07

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mignonette Sat 10-Nov-12 16:07:05

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hackmum Sat 10-Nov-12 16:07:58

That's a very serious allegation, goralka.

MrsjREwing Sat 10-Nov-12 16:09:08

On the other thread you will find a link showing two others naming the same abuser.

I think many people would be troubled if legs of tables had been inserted in their body as a child or if their throats were lightened with rope to near unconconciousness.

noddyholder Sat 10-Nov-12 16:10:38

It really stinks.

goralka Sat 10-Nov-12 16:11:29

is it really hackmum?
I don't think so.
It's all over the internet, along with just how many ex-inmates of Bryn Estyn and Bryn Alyn have met their deaths in mysterious circumstances.

EverybodysSpookyEyed Sat 10-Nov-12 16:12:29

I believe him

I believe he was assaulted by a member of the mcalpine family and was told it was the household name to scare him. I don't think him apologising to lord m diminishes him. It makes the whole thing more scandalous. The abuser was still being protected, just for different reasons.

The important thing is that the truth does out. Names get put on the Internet for many reasons, a lot of them are by people who have their own agenda and want to use this scandal to pursue it or settle scores.

I hope these inquiries get to the truth about both the well known people and those who are not well known.

PrincessSymbian Sat 10-Nov-12 16:13:45

I believe you, Stephen, and all those other people fighting to find some justice.

noddyholder Sat 10-Nov-12 16:33:17

It was the police who told him who LM was and he then gave this info to newsnight. I was of the belief that the photos were given to the police by SM and subsequently destroyed so why is SM apologising and not the police who identified him from Stephens evidence?

Xenia Sat 10-Nov-12 16:54:54

So SM could arguably sue the police for misleading him over the identity. The result of that police mistake is that SM is taken less seriously.

Darkesteyes Sat 10-Nov-12 17:08:29

I believe you and others Steven and support you all in your fight for justice.

Xenia Sun 11-Nov-12 10:23:14
MrsjREwing Sun 11-Nov-12 10:32:51

I still believe you Steven.

bananaistheanswer Sun 11-Nov-12 11:58:47

I believe that he was horrifically abused and has suffered terribly his whole life as a result. There are still some major issues that have come to light which ch4 have addressed, and which other abuse victims/people have highlighted. Just because Steven Messham has been discredited does not mean there arent serious issues that need to be addressed. I hope he is getting some help and support right now. That article does not convince me that Messham is a fantasist. It simply tells me that he has endured horrific suffering and has had no one show him the understanding that he needed to disclose his abuse in a way that was safe for him. He WAS abused, and the way he was described by Waterhouse must have been painful for him to deal with. He might well be a witness who would be difficult for a jury to believe, but that doesn't mean everything he says is a lie or fantasy. And that's the tragedy here, because I've no doubt there were people who did abuse him who have escaped justice because what they subjected him to has damaged him so much, that he struggles with a lot of the details of what happened to him.

hackmum Sun 11-Nov-12 11:59:11

Xenia - yes, I just read that, and it shows the perils of relying on a single source for a story. Bob Woffinden is a respected investigative journalist of long standing, not some Daily Mail hack making trouble.

It also shows the perils, in my view, of uncritically believing an accusation someone makes of sexual abuse. I am all in favour of taking accusations of abuse far more seriously than they have been in the past, but it's important to look at all the evidence before jumping to conclusions. I still believe in the very useful principle of presumed innocent until proven guilty.

goralka Sun 11-Nov-12 12:11:52

well said banana, good post.
I believe him, as you say the details are blurred.

Xenia Sun 11-Nov-12 17:53:49

I agree with hackmum.

I don't think we are doing too badly in England in terms of investigating and bringing to trial child abusers. There have been quite a few. I think we do a lot better now than we used to but there is no room for complacency.

The conspiracy theorists might feel BBC (left wing body stuffed with Tory haters) was cross about the Saville criticism so they went for the Tories with the new stuff.

ashesgirl Sun 11-Nov-12 18:04:35

Just read this on Twitter

In 2010, 2,135 people were convicted of child sex abuse, although police were notified of more than 23,000 offences

So are we really not doing too badly at convicting child abuses?

EverybodysSnowyEyed Sun 11-Nov-12 18:09:07

We're these I individual offences? Because i am user in that case each of the 2135 would have been responsible for more than one

The problem with witch hunts is that it is a very good way for the guilty to hide behind the innocent

EverybodysSnowyEyed Sun 11-Nov-12 18:09:57

Sure - not user. (on phone - sorry)

ashesgirl Sun 11-Nov-12 18:10:35

Don't know Everybodys, going to look into a bit more.

Xenia Sun 11-Nov-12 20:28:01

Obviously we have to keep the eye on the ball but most police detest child abuse and it is not the kind of offence to be swept under the carpet. The CPS decides which to prosecute. Sadly some people commit a lot of offences.

2135 is quite a high number.

Darkesteyes Sun 11-Nov-12 21:15:28

Yeah the BBC really is a left wing body stuffed with Tory haters (wheres the sarcasm emoticon when you need one!

carernotasaintMon 30-Jul-12 15:31:21

If the BBC one is biased in favour of the Gov. i wont be surprised. Look at the way Newsnight stitched up that single mum. Ive completely lost any respect for that programme as a result.
In the same week as the NatWest/RBS disaster exploded there was NOT one question asked about it on Question Time NOT ONE. But they still found 15 mins to moan about people on benefits. No questions pertaining to the Nat West disaster on the following weeks show either.
Earlier this year John Humphreys did a very biased show about benefit claimants on BBC2.
Then a few months later he did a Panorama programme in Greece about how awful it was that people over there were having to rely on charities and food banks.
Now i know Greece have a bigger crisis than us but people are having to use food banks over here john you fuckwit!
And idiots like him simply REFUSE to see that demonizing low income people the way he does will make it even worse over here.
I have NO FAITH in the BBC at all when they deal with issues like this. They tow the Government line. Too frightened of losing the TV licence.

Knowsabitabouteducation Sun 11-Nov-12 21:17:09

He actually has quite a history of fabrication.

Feenie Sun 11-Nov-12 21:25:51

I still believe you Steven.

AnyaKnowIt Sun 11-Nov-12 21:31:09

I still believe you

Darkesteyes Sun 11-Nov-12 21:40:39

I still believe you Steven.

greenfern Sun 11-Nov-12 22:49:53

I still believe Steve and all the others that have been abused.

I hope they get justice.

partridgetree Sun 11-Nov-12 23:10:50

I believe you Steven and think you have been incredibly brave. Keep strong.

laughtergoodmedicine Mon 12-Nov-12 14:14:39

I think a few charges may come out of the Savile inquiry.

OatyBeatie Mon 12-Nov-12 14:42:53

I want to add my support for Steven Messham. He has been put under a huge about of pressure the last few days through absolutely no fault of his own and I feel frightened about the level of distress he might be feeling. A brave man, and once again, as in his past the people, who should have been helping have hurt him.

Nancy66 Mon 12-Nov-12 15:02:06

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Feenie Mon 12-Nov-12 15:22:11

Although you could possibly take that somewhere else - I'm not sure an "I believe you' thread is the place.

mignonette Mon 12-Nov-12 15:38:31

Exactly. The disbelieving should post elsewhere.

FrothyOM Mon 12-Nov-12 15:50:25

I still believe him.

It was an honest mistake, the BBC were the ones who should have done their research. It's not like these men were giving their names, was it?

goralka Mon 12-Nov-12 18:38:00

He actually has quite a history of fabrication.
there is no doubt he was sexually abused in care by God knows who.

higgle Mon 12-Nov-12 18:47:39

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MaryZezItsOnlyJustNovember Mon 12-Nov-12 18:59:50

I believe he was abused.

I believe he is still being abused - only now it is mentally rather than physically.

He was treated appallingly by society when he was a child, and now he is being treated just as appallingly by society as an adult.

Feenie Mon 12-Nov-12 19:18:59

Lovely to see MNers jumping on this thread to stick the boot in. hmm

greenfern Mon 12-Nov-12 19:22:32

Can't believe some people have no empathy towards abused victims.

Is just they want to be controversial.

EverybodysSnowyEyed Mon 12-Nov-12 19:24:31

I agree with maryzez

It doesn't actually matter who abused him because it doesn't change the fact that terrible things happened to him. He needs help and support. Not being fed to the lions.

OliviaMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 12-Nov-12 21:00:04
Feenie Mon 12-Nov-12 21:01:41

Thanks Olivia.

NigellasGuest Mon 12-Nov-12 21:29:56

I believe you Steven
and I agree with MaryZ

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 12-Nov-12 21:39:31

I still believe you Steven. I hope you get justice and find peace in the future.

higgle Mon 12-Nov-12 21:39:55

What exactly is the point of a thread where only one point of view is allowed?
I think we would do well to remember the Orkney cases a few years ago. I practiced as a criminal defence solicitor for more than twenty years and ....well, not much point in expressing an opininon is there?

NigellasGuest Mon 12-Nov-12 21:46:29

This is an I Believe You thread - the whole point is to express that I believe you

MaryZezItsOnlyJustNovember Mon 12-Nov-12 21:47:05

It's part of the "We believe you" campaign, higgle.

It's not a place to debate the rights or wrongs of the BBC, or child abuse in general. It is a declaration by mumsnet that if people speak up, we start off from the position (in the absence of hard evidence to the contrary) of belief.

It started with believing women about rape. We can also believe men about rape.

higgle Mon 12-Nov-12 21:54:13

I did post in support on the rape thread, on this occasion I have read the source material from some of the press articles and defer to the view of Gerard Elias QC, counsel to the Waterhouse inquiry.

Xenia Mon 12-Nov-12 21:54:35

It's totally meaningless. No one doubts he was abused.
Obviously we do not believe those things he says are not to be believed.

We must always start from the position of everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Lynch mob "get the paedos" have no place in Britain.

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 12-Nov-12 21:56:19

I Believe You threads are places where victims receive support. Very important for those who are living with the effects of sexual abuse and are faced with an adversarial legal system willing to do whatever it takes to discredit them.

Debate on the individual case is not prohibited. Just start another thread.

I Believe You should be a safe space.

ashesgirl Mon 12-Nov-12 21:58:20

That's fair enough, Dione re: the safe space.

I think it's not clear however, about posting on a thread, if you are unfamiliar with the I Believe You campaign.

higgle Mon 12-Nov-12 22:04:35

Where does it say this? where is the rule?

Feenie Mon 12-Nov-12 22:07:31

Read the link Olivia kindly posted for you a few posts up.

MaryZezItsOnlyJustNovember Mon 12-Nov-12 22:12:04

There is a link to the campaign from Olivia ^ up there.

higgle Mon 12-Nov-12 22:15:09

Yes, read the link, but it doesn't actually say that. I think the campagn is very important but in view of the comments this person's own solicitor has made about him feel there possibly are better candidates for support. I will bo;w out now because I do not want to detract form the main point.

AnyaKnowIt Mon 12-Nov-12 22:19:55

Better candidates to support? WTF

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 12-Nov-12 22:39:25

Higgle, I don't think that explicit rules are needed. The campaign is clear in its aim. Anyway, is it too much to ask that a tiny space be safe for victims on a forum of this size?

As for better candidates, this isn't a scoreboard. If you wish to highlight a case, please do.

WakeUpRosemary Mon 12-Nov-12 22:49:58

Steven Messham is on twitter and it looks like he's not coping too well. I hope he's OK and I believe him.

This whole thing stinks.

Feenie Mon 12-Nov-12 22:51:09

Higgle - his solicitor ACTUALLY said "People who are vulnerable . . . a good part of them is so disturbed that they’re not going to be wholly consistent and reliable."

A bit different to the DM's claim that he'd said he made it up.

Don't believe everything you read.

Darkesteyes Mon 12-Nov-12 23:02:24
KRITIQ Tue 13-Nov-12 00:26:59

Thanks for the link Dark, which included . . .

In the House of Commons last week, the Labour MP Ann Clwyd called for the report to be published.

She said she had read the Jillings report shortly after it was completed. She said: "I saw it. I wasn't supposed to see it. It was shown to me. I saw it at the time. It was subsequently pulped by the then Clywd county council because they were afraid of the attitudes of the insurers.

"I would say please get the Jillings report published because it shows buggery, rape, bestiality, violent assaults and torture, and the effects on those young boys at that time cannot be under-estimated."

The DM piece was absolutely ghastly.

I believe Steven Messham.

MrsjREwing Tue 13-Nov-12 00:28:17

No need for rules, SM is believed! Hope Steve is ok. That Guardian link is giving me hope the truth will out.

Darkesteyes Tue 13-Nov-12 02:17:08

It is absolutely disgusting what the DM have done to Steven.

mignonette Tue 13-Nov-12 10:23:16

Stephen.....Keep going. I believe you.

mummymooch Sun 11-Aug-13 11:02:49

I believe you Steve i have read other victims stories who have said they too were warned off from telling their stories , as a mother this has made me weep this poor man has been abused all over again by the powers that be so sad .

mummymooch Wed 05-Feb-14 00:50:07

Hello , i'm not sure if this is the correct thread to put this on though topic is the same re truth and children's welfare.

I would like help in getting more support for the politicians to be investigated regarding the evidence found and ignored by Geoff Dickens in the 70's( apparently this would have stopped JS from abusing children). More recently the case reopened by MP Tom Watson who saw the evidence and called for one big super enquiry ( open letters ignored by Theresa May to say why this evidence went missing in the first place) .

Cameron declined a super enquiry but the speech by MP Tom Watson has got smaller investigations underway .

Please sign this petition started by 38 degrees to stop children being abused in care by rich powerful people who seem to be above the law, let them know we care about ALL children and need everyone brought to justice .

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/paedophile-networks-in-uk-parliament-organised-child-abuse?source=facebook-share-button&time=1391113669

Its0kToBeMe Thu 06-Feb-14 11:27:52

Believed and followed.

CFSKate Thu 06-Feb-14 11:36:32

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